tent scene, in the short story.

[Rayn]

I have trouble understanding what people go on about with the tent scene in the book or the movie.  What's important to me is the response Ennis had to Jack and Jack had to Ennis.  Without doubt the attraction they had for each other from the beginning turned into real affection, friendship and lasting love, love that was stronger than any homophobia in either of them, any fear of externals, any marriage to or love of wives, even their love of thier children wasn't as strong as their love for each other.  That's what's true and important to me and make the book and movie so real, so memorable.  Well written, well crafted love stories are usually like that.

Rayn

[serious crayons]

I don't remember: Is movie Ennis lying on his side facing Jack's back?

Ennis is lying on his back asleep, and Jack is on his side with his back to Ennis. Then Jack wakes up, reaches back, grabs Ennis' hand, pulls it over him and places it in position. Which causes Ennis to turn on his side toward Jack. A couple of seconds later Ennis wakes up, sees/feels what's going on, and lurches away. (Jeff, I'm beginning to feel like Lureen lecturing Jack on how Ennis should drive down to Texas for a change -- that is, I know it's none of my business -- but you really should watch that DVD again! I guarantee you it will be fun. OK, I promise that is the last time I'll mention it.)

I have trouble understanding what people go on about with the tent scene in the book or the movie.  What's important to me is the response Ennis had to Jack and Jack had to Ennis.  Without doubt the attraction they had for each other from the beginning turned into real affection, friendship and lasting love, love that was stronger than any homophobia in either of them, any fear of externals, any marriage to or love of wives, even their love of thier children wasn't as strong as their love for each other.  That's what's true and important to me and make the book and movie so real, so memorable.  Well written, well crafted love stories are usually like that.

Rayn, I agree with everything you say here. But I have trouble understanding what it is you have trouble understanding.

[starboardlight]

I understand it that although they were sleeping in the same bedroll, they became intimate shortly after Jack placed Ennis' hand on his (Jack's) erection.  Annie is foreshadowing what she was about to describe, IMHO.

i had thought that too, but rereading the passage, it seems that the intimacy started before. Maybe that simply meant that they, in sleepy haze, cuddled?

[welliwont]

....it doesn't say "hammerin" it says "yammerin"?
that's new to me...anyone else??

I see errors in closed caption all the time...  nothing new.  That is why I do not believe the cc in the SNIT --  oops!  almost went into forbidden territory there! LOL

[TJ]

No wonder Story Ennis was so cold his jaws were clacking. It was already established that Story Ennis doesn't even wear socks, yet he took his boots off to sleep on what was presumable a cold night.

I think TJ raises an interesting point that I don't think I've ever seen discussed anywhere, in relation to either the story or the film. While AP gives us no direct evidence for it, was Ennis already hard when Jack put his (Ennis's) hand on his own (Jack's) erection?

Um, if I may speak from personal experience, this is a completely logical assumption under the circumstances. ... 

The Story Ennis did not even own underwear in 1963. And, while Jack might have an extra blanket, the book does not say.

Speaking from personal experience, too, and knowing how there is an "evidence of clear slick" which usually only appears when a man is sexually aroused or being made so, I believe that Ennis did already have an erection. And, unless there has been lots and lots and lots of foreplay for a man, a little more lubrication, like spit, is needed for better ease to enter.

IMO, the scene is too abrupt and knowing the personality of Ennis and how he would have reacted if Jack had suddenly forced Ennis to touch his penis, I just believe that Ennis Del Mar would have given Jack Twist an attitude adjustment first, by slugging him, and then ask questions later.

Anyone who would say "I'm not no queer" and literally believed that to be true about himself and be an Ennis type, too, would not have let another man even touch him if sex was going to be involved.

[TJ]

i had thought that too, but rereading the passage, it seems that the intimacy started before. Maybe that simply meant that they, in sleepy haze, cuddled?

Oh, I think that they were wide awake when they had the deepened intimacy. Ennis had slept off some of his "dizzy drunk"-ness before he woke Jack up. Ennis had snored first. The intimacy began shortly Ennis got into Jack's bedroll; it might have started with Jack trying get Ennis physically warm.

[RouxB]

I think Silk it correct-the deeping of the intimacy was a foreshadowing of what was about to take place. The hand on cock and subsequent coupling was the deepened intimacy.

[Rayn]

Rayn, I agree with everything you say here. But I have trouble understanding what it is you have trouble understanding.

Oh, just that all the seemingly endless talk of small details in book or movie or book vs movie:  It appears these threads often miss the important messages in the "big picture", you know, the larger details?   Besides, I find trying to keep up with every detail of what character placed his or her hand on his or her wrist or throat or whether someone was looking at "his mouth" instead of "his eyes" really a bit much to keep up with, so, I don't, but if you like that sort of thing... have at it!

Smile....
Rayn

[serious crayons]

Oh, just that all the seemingly endless talk of small details in book or movie or book vs movie:  It appears these threads often miss the important messages in the "big picture", you know, the larger details?   Besides, I find trying to keep up with every detail of what character placed his or her hand on his or her wrist or throat or whether someone was looking at "his mouth" instead of "his eyes" really a bit much to keep up with, so, I don't, but if you like that sort of thing... have at it!

Smile....
Rayn

I think part of it is, we all long to talk about ANYTHING involving this movie, so people find whatever they can to discuss and be interested in. And maybe we feel we're running out of things to say about the big picture. I sure hope not! If you have ideas for big picture topics for threads, Rayn, I encourage you to start them! I promise I will contribute!

The other thing is that, in the movie at least, a lot of those questions like who looked at who when and who put his hand where are actually often important in showing what people are thinking. For instance, in the tent scene, it's a big turning point when Ennis pauses to look at Jack and moves toward him and then throws him off and then grabs him. And the hand-holding is telling. In other scenes, eye contact that's held a beat longer than normal is often really revealing. And so on. It doesn't always mean something, but many times it does, so it seems worth pinning down those details.

[starboardlight]

I think part of it is, we all long to talk about ANYTHING involving this movie, so people find whatever they can to discuss and be interested in. And maybe we feel we're running out of things to say about the big picture. I sure hope not! If you have ideas for big picture topics for threads, Rayn, I encourage you to start them! I promise I will contribute!

The other thing is that, in the movie at least, a lot of those questions like who looked at who when and who put his hand where are actually often important in showing what people are thinking. For instance, in the tent scene, it's a big turning point when Ennis pauses to look at Jack and moves toward him and then throws him off and then grabs him is a big turning point. And the hand-holding is telling. In other scenes, eye contact that's held a beat longer than normal is often really revealing. And so on. It doesn't always mean something, but many times it does, so it seems worth pinning down those details.

yep, i do think the small details sometimes reveal something about the bigger picture. in this case, I'm just taking note of the fact that Ennis, in the short story, was not as conflicted about being intimate with Jack. He didn't pull away, but rather ran full throttle with it.