TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?

[brokeplex]

yes, I think that it is a natural tendency to blend our knowledge that we gain from both sources. Back in the early days of Star Wars I noticed this phenom, in discussions at Cons I would run into people who ascribed facts and character motivations to the films that were based upon what they had read in the novelizations and take-off stories.

There was finally a consensus reached in resolving those fun little trivia disuputes. The Star Wars films were deemed to be canon.

[Artiste]

It seems that because Jack is much, too much, tragic in the movie (which makes it maybe more anti-gay), then I would prefer the book.

Of course the book had also negatives too! Is it more pro-gay?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Artiste, neither the short story nor the movie are either pro-gay or anti-gay. The short story has no agenda, social political or otherwise. It simply tells in beautiful fashion the tragic tale of two closeted bisexual men living in a rural homophobic environment. Those of us who love the short story and the movie are free to ascribe any meaning we wish, but there is no agenda. We can take the experience of Jack and Ennis and relate them to our lives and hopefully learn something from it, but even if we learn nothing we can still be entertained.

[Front-Ranger]

It seems that because Jack is much, too much, tragic in the movie (which makes it maybe more anti-gay), then I would prefer the book.

Of course the book had also negatives too! Is it more pro-gay?

Hugs!

There was an interesting interview with Ang Lee recently in the New York Times in which he said that he liked to take the side of the "losers" in his films. Of the characters in Brokeback Mountain, he said "Of course, gays...they're never going to win." But really, in the movie and in life, we all lose because of fear and hate. Even Aguirre had 25% loss...L.D. died, and Old Man Twist had nothing but an urnful of ashes to show for his life. Yes, Brokeback Mountain is a tragedy and in a sense you could call it anti-gay because it unabashedly shows the downside of the effects of hate and fear. For more of a "pro-gay"  movie you could watch Maurice, The Wedding Banquet, or Shelter.

But I agree with the others who say it is wrong to call Brokeback Mountain an anti-gay movie. It is an anti-hate and fear movie. To give another example, look at the Bible. It tells the story of an illigitimate child who was poor all his life, wandered around with a dozen itinerant deuces and came to a bad end on the cross. Would you call the Bible anti-Christian? No, I don't think so.

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger, and thanks brokeplex!!

Front-Ranger, I like very much your comments here! You are now starting to see that in some ways the movie is anti-gay as in a sense you could call it anti-gay!! You say too: unabashedly shows the downside of the effects of hate and fear.
...
Front-Ranger, to that, may I say that your note about the movie showing the downside of the effects of hate and fear, are real in the film, and this is presented unabashedly, as you say! May, we gays or straights or others, learn from that!! But since the violence in it is too unabashedly, that is what puzzles me mostly (among other things that could be seen as anti-gay) as I see it way too much gratuitous... amd might lead others who are homphobic to hit upon a gay person as if it's OK to do so?? !! I pose that as a question to you and to all... and seek replies. Even though murders of gay men are uncalled for, they are happening as a free act to many persons... as some homophobic persons do not care about life, unfortunately!
...

Brokeplex, you say this: [Artiste, neither the short story nor the movie are either pro-gay or anti-gay. The short story has no agenda, social political or otherwise. It simply tells in beautiful fashion the tragic tale of two closeted bisexual men living in a rural homophobic environment. Those of us who love the short story and the movie are free to ascribe any meaning we wish.../i]
...

Brokeplex, may I add that the story as well as the movie has meaning. Everyone views the movie differently, and find something in it!! As to pro-gay and/or anti-gay??

Hugs, hugs!!

[serious crayons]

Artiste, do I correctly understand you to be saying that BBM is anti-gay because you think that seeing Jack's possible killing will inspire audience members to go out and commit gay-bashing incidents or murders themselves?

I'll have to say, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. In fact, with all due respect, I'll have to go a step further and say it strikes me as completely absurd.

It's like trying to imagine someone watching "Sophie's Choice" or "Schindler's List" and then deciding to become a Nazi.

First of all, anybody who watches the movie already seems automatically, by definition, a member of that portion of the population least likely to be anti-gay or homophobic or likely to commit violence toward gays in the first place. Second, one big message of Brokeback Mountain, stated in the simplest possible terms, is that it's bad to kill gay men. Its gay characters are sympathetic and three dimensional and suffering. So if it's even possible to imagine a viewer who would otherwise be likely to commit anti-gay hate crimes somehow nevertheless choosing to see "Brokeback Mountain," I would say that the experience of watching the movie, if anything, makes them much LESS likely to commit violence toward gays than they were before.

Your repeated questions about anti-gay have made no sense to me. If I am now interpreting them correctly, I would have to say I couldn't disagree more.

[brokeplex]

Artiste, do I correctly understand you to be saying that BBM is anti-gay because you think that seeing Jack's possible killing will inspire audience members to go out and commit gay-bashing incidents or murders themselves?

I'll have to say, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. In fact, with all due respect, I'll have to go a step further and say it strikes me as completely absurd.

It's like trying to imagine someone watching "Sophie's Choice" or "Schindler's List" and then deciding to become a Nazi.

First of all, anybody who watches the movie already seems automatically, by definition, a member of that portion of the population least likely to be anti-gay or homophobic or likely to commit violence toward gays in the first place. Second, one big message of Brokeback Mountain, stated in the simplest possible terms, is that it's bad to kill gay men. Its gay characters are sympathetic and three dimensional and suffering. So if it's even possible to imagine a viewer who would otherwise be likely to commit anti-gay hate crimes somehow nevertheless choosing to see "Brokeback Mountain," I would say that the experience of watching the movie, if anything, makes them much LESS likely to commit violence toward gays than they were before.

Your repeated questions about anti-gay have made no sense to me. If I am now interpreting them correctly, I would have to say I couldn't disagree more.

Ineedcrayons, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that your analogy to the reaction of the general public to the Nazi violence depicted in "Sophie's Choice" and "Schindler's List" is right on target. "Brokeback Moutain" is a watershed in creating greater understanding in the general public about closeted gay/bisexuals, and about the true nature of the destructiveness of the closet.   

[Brown Eyes]

Ineedcrayons, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that your analogy to the reaction of the general public to the Nazi violence depicted in "Sophie's Choice" and "Schindler's List" is right on target. "Brokeback Moutain" is a watershed in creating greater understanding in the general public about closeted gay/bisexuals, and about the true nature of the destructiveness of the closet.   

Hey crayons and brokeplex, I'm just jumping in to say I agree with both of you as well.  I agree that the Sophie's Choice analogy is good.  And brokeplex, I really agree with what you said about BBM exposing the "true nature of the destructiveness of the closet."  That's such an important aspect of BBM I think.

[brokeplex]

So, how do we convince Artiste? I want him to see the light!
:-)

[injest]

I wonder if when Artiste says 'antigay' he means homophobic...that the movie shows homophobia?

that situations or people in the movie are against gay people? in that sense it is true...there is a lot of homophobia in the movie. Aquirre's reaction to the boys...Alma's reaction...the clown...all these people were against gays.

Artiste am I close to what you are saying?