Author Topic: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)  (Read 13206 times)

mvansand76

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Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« on: November 14, 2007, 10:34:05 am »
I would like to discuss it here.

It has touched me in a way no movie has since Brokeback!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 09:11:26 am by MaineWriter »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 06:49:20 am »
I was going to ask the same  :).
I haven't seen it yet, but plan to do so tomorrow evening. It was highly recommended to me.
I'll report back after seeing it.

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 07:24:57 am »
I have to wait until January 9th when it's released over here.  :-\

But I've bought the book to keep me happy until then. I wonder which will be best: the book or the movie? I love Ian McEwan. I've read Saturday and I'm now reading On Chesil Beach.

This film is on my must-see list.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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mvansand76

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 08:18:09 am »
Hey both of you!

There's a huge difference of opinion over whether the book is better than the movie or the other way around. I saw the movie before I finished the book (I am only on page 50 in the book). According to my colleague, who I saw the movie with, the ending is slightly different than the book's ending... and he likes the book as much as he likes the movie. In one way it's very faithful to the book and in other ways it takes different roads...

I love that the questions the ending raises reminds me of the questions that BBM raised. What do we believe really happened?



Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 01:09:18 pm »
***Spoiler alert for my whole post***

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Highlight to read

It didn't work out to see it Friday as was planned, but I saw it yesterday evening.
I haven't read the book (yet?), so I can't say anything comparing the two.


I think it was a really good movie. The twist towards the end came as total surprise. I was like wtf? What's happening now? Loved it.

But in the end, I wasn't very touched by the movie or the ending. But many people in the theatre were deeply effected. There were some people crying or at least sniffing hardly in effort to control their emotions.


I love that the questions the ending raises reminds me of the questions that BBM raised. What do we believe really happened?

For me, there was no doubt that the author (old Brainy) told the truth. That's what's happened. They both had died.


Looking forward to your opinion  :).

mvansand76

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2007, 01:23:58 pm »
Hey!

Well, the movie obviously didn't have the effect on me that BBM had, because I haven't really been thinking about the movie the past week. BUT it did really affect me, and I too was crying during the ending. It was much more melodrama than BBM because I never really cried during the ending of BBM, which I don't find surprising, because it gave me an entirely different feeling of stupor and I'm still thinking about that now. That kind of ending is more effective in the end.







SPOILER




I don't know, maybe this is what Annie was talking about with the ending of BBM and if Jack's death was an accident or not, and what it says about you when you believe that he was killed. I think Cee and Robby were both killed. I don't think that talk they had ever happened. What do you think?

Mel

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 01:57:58 pm »
***Spoilers***

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SPOILER


I don't know, maybe this is what Annie was talking about with the ending of BBM and if Jack's death was an accident or not, and what it says about you when you believe that he was killed. I think Cee and Robby were both killed. I don't think that talk they had ever happened. What do you think?

Mel


Same here. That talk never happened imo, Cee and Robby never met again after she hopped on the bus. But Robby had more than the one postcard of the cottage, he had a whole bundle of letters. Therefore I'm sure they at least had restored their relationship and wrote each other regularly.

Offline Fran

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 01:59:48 am »
I thought Atonement was good, but I wasn't swept away, and I wanted to be.  I wanted this to be a movie that I'd want to see multiple times.  Maybe my expectations were too high. (Darn BBM.  It's going to be a hard movie to top.)  I haven't read the book, so maybe that would have made a difference.  I mean, there are people over at IMDb who absolutely love this movie, and it did win two Golden Globes....

I admit that it does have awesome cinematography, especially in the first part of the movie.  The Dunkirk scene is amazing; the camera just keeps on panning.  I probably could have done without seeing the bodies of the dead schoolgirls and the poor horses, but war isn't supposed to be pretty.  Keira Knightley was stunning -- I loved her in the green dress -- and Saoirse Ronan was impressive, too.  (Can't wait to see her in The Lovely Bones.)  The actress who played 18-year-old Briony seemed too old, IMO.

SPOILERS











My favorite scene had to be when Briony walked into the dining room with the letter from the twins, and Cecilia, thinking it's the letter from Robbie, says, "Let me have it" -- or words to that effect.  If looks could kill, Briony would be dead. 

I'm wondering why Briony was so upset by the fountain scene, especially since Robbie was trying to look away and he didn't do anything sexual to Cee.  Maybe Briony had some schoolgirl crush on Robbie and was jealous that he was paying attention to her sister and not to her.  Too bad Robbie and Cee didn't lock the library door....

I'd have thought that Briony would have admitted her lie a lot earlier -- at least to her parents -- because once she realized that her lie was breaking up her very own family.

I cry rather easily at movies, so I came prepared with kleenex, which I didn't need.  Don't get me wrong, the movie is good, perhaps even very good, but I was hoping for great.

Maybe I should read the book. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 01:08:13 am by Fran »

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2008, 07:44:37 pm »
Hi everyone,

I went and saw Atonement today. I have the book (I received it for Christmas) but haven't read it yet, so I can't compare them. But my impression...

SPOILER











I think the whole middle of the movie....from the time it says "Four years later, northern France" was all Briony's imagination. And that really makes me wonder how much, if any of it, was true. For example, Chrissi, you note that Robbie had a stack of letters. But did he? Did Cecelia and Robbie really reconnect in London? I do think Cecelia and Robbie both died, but everything else...how much is true?

Answering another question: Briony had a crush on Robbie and had had, for years. Seeing her sister with him at the fountain, with her sister dripping wet, she realized they were in love--and she didn't want them to be in love. She wanted Robbie to love her (even though that was entirely unrealistic).

I even wonder if Briony ever studied nursing.

Leslie
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 02:04:47 am »
Mark (jpwagoneer) and I saw ATONEMENT down in San Diego...I hope he posts about his impressions.  I liked it very much was moved by it and taken by surprise by the ending.  But no obsession here either.

From the accounts I've read of Dunkirk, this was done very realistically.  The one thing that was left out that I think makes Dunkirk remarkable is the participation of ordinary Britons in evacuating the troops:

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk):

"...This lull in the action gave the British a few days to evacuate by sea. Winston Churchill ordered any ship or boat available, large or small, to pick up the stranded soldiers, and 338,226 men (including 120,000 French soldiers) were evacuated - the miracle of Dunkirk, as Winston Churchill called it. It took over 900 vessels to evacuate the Allied forces. More than 40,000 vehicles as well as massive amounts of other military equipment and supplies were left behind; their value being less than that of trained fighting men. The British evacuation of Dunkirk through the English Channel was codenamed Operation Dynamo."

It's my understanding that many, many of the 900 vessels were manned by British civilians, even (especially?) women, small fishing vessels, pleasure crafts, sailboats, etc...who ferried the soldiers from the Dunkirk coast out to larger ships, which then dropped them off and made return trips to pick up the next load.





****SPOILERS****

I would like to see it at least one more time, though, to work out in my own mind what actually happened and what were Briony's revisions.  After viewing number one, I would like to watch it with the idea that everything from Briony's POV is suspect to her own (mis)interpretation.

I was left with the impression that the letters to Robbie during the war were real, but that he did not make it out of Dunkirk alive.  I thought that it was Briony's visit to her sister and her 'memory' of their reunion and Robbie being alive that was solely in her imagination - what she wanted to do but was too cowardly, embellished with her fantasy that her betrayal could somehow be undone by Robbie coming home from the war alive.

Did she find atonement by rewriting the story they should have had late in her life?  That was our question leaving the theatre and I believe our consensus was 'Not likely.'
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mvansand76

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 06:43:37 am »
****SPOILERS****

I would like to see it at least one more time, though, to work out in my own mind what actually happened and what were Briony's revisions.  After viewing number one, I would like to watch it with the idea that everything from Briony's POV is suspect to her own (mis)interpretation.

I was left with the impression that the letters to Robbie during the war were real, but that he did not make it out of Dunkirk alive.  I thought that it was Briony's visit to her sister and her 'memory' of their reunion and Robbie being alive that was solely in her imagination - what she wanted to do but was too cowardly, embellished with her fantasy that her betrayal could somehow be undone by Robbie coming home from the war alive.

Did she find atonement by rewriting the story they should have had late in her life?  That was our question leaving the theatre and I believe our consensus was 'Not likely.'

I agree! I have to see it again to really make up my mind about how it really went. I do think that the book is a little more clear on the matter, as I've heard from my friend who read the book. I started reading the book, but haven't gotten to the part with the twist yet...

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 09:11:05 am »
One thing I decided, as I lay in bed thinking about this...I do think Briony studied nursing. The French soldier that died while she was caring for him gave her the description of how Robbie died. What I mean...I read one comment that said, "Here we had two instances of people who didn't seem all that sick, they were talking one minute, then started talking nonsense and suddenly, boom! They were dead." Actually, Briony experienced it with one person and used that to write Robbie's death in Dunkirk.

I think all of what we saw of Robbie's experience in France was from her imagination. It was based on what actually happened, of course, and she talked to the other soldier (Nettle) and learned about it from him, but what she wrote (and we saw) was what she envisioned. And from that perspective, it really makes me wonder about the scene of the dead schoolgirls. Remember Robbie was alone when he saw that? The other two men never saw them. Maybe Robbie never saw them, either. Maybe it was Briony imagining that Robbie wanted her dead for what she had done, and that is how she expressed it.

Thoughts?

L

PS, I changed the subject line to say SPOILERS so we can just assume anyone coming to this thread has seen the movie.
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Offline opinionista

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 11:58:06 am »
Hi everyone,

I went and saw Atonement today. I have the book (I received it for Christmas) but haven't read it yet, so I can't compare them. But my impression...

SPOILER











I think the whole middle of the movie....from the time it says "Four years later, northern France" was all Briony's imagination. And that really makes me wonder how much, if any of it, was true. For example, Chrissi, you note that Robbie had a stack of letters. But did he? Did Cecelia and Robbie really reconnect in London? I do think Cecelia and Robbie both died, but everything else...how much is true?

Answering another question: Briony had a crush on Robbie and had had, for years. Seeing her sister with him at the fountain, with her sister dripping wet, she realized they were in love--and she didn't want them to be in love. She wanted Robbie to love her (even though that was entirely unrealistic).

I even wonder if Briony ever studied nursing.

Leslie


I saw Atonement on Friday. These are my impressions. I think Briony did study nursing. She probably did it out of guilt, to try to reconnect with her sister. I also think she did send that letter to Cee but the scene where Cee and Robbie meet at the restaurant and discuss Briony's letter didn't happen. In that scene Cee tells Robbie about Briony studying nursing and feeling bad about what happened. It seemed to me Cee was sort of forgiving her. She didn't seem angry or anything.  I think that scene in particular was Briony's imagination. I think Cee and Robbie never meet again after his arrest, and both die young, hence Briony's decision to give them the happiness they didn't have even if it was fiction. I thought this movie was so sad. I felt bad for Briony because she lived her life with guilt. I thought Lola was worse than her, though.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Fran

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2008, 12:25:43 am »
And from that perspective, it really makes me wonder about the scene of the dead schoolgirls. Remember Robbie was alone when he saw that? The other two men never saw them. Maybe Robbie never saw them, either. Maybe it was Briony imagining that Robbie wanted her dead for what she had done, and that is how she expressed it.

Thoughts?

L

Wow, Leslie!  Yes, that would explain it perfectly.

And thanks for pointing out Briony's crush on Robbie.  I had forgotten about the scene where she jumped in the water and pretended to drown so that he would have to rescue her and then how annoyed he was with her.  Maybe she couldn't bear the thought of "losing" him to her gorgeous sister, thinking if I can't have him, she certainly won't.  Plus, one has to consider the fact that Briony is in a pissy mood that day since no one's really interested in her play, and she had been so excited about it. 

I'm wondering if the book follows the movie with regard to how much pages are devoted to Robbie during the war.  Does the book just jump ahead like the movie and skip Robbie's trial and time in jail and Cee's split with her family?  I think I would have liked more film time devoted to those things.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 10:03:26 am »
I'm wondering if the book follows the movie with regard to how much pages are devoted to Robbie during the war.  Does the book just jump ahead like the movie and skip Robbie's trial and time in jail and Cee's split with her family?  I think I would have liked more film time devoted to those things.


Yes, the book does jump ahead like that. It's in 3 distinct parts, much like the film.  (I read it when it first was published so I do not remember all the novel details anymore).

In fact, the middle part of the novel with the (sometimes surreal, always frightening) struggles of the 3 soldiers making their way amid chaos and war towards Dunquerque is significantly more drawn-out and detailed in the novel. It is written so vividly that to me, personally, that was the best (and most emotionally challenging) part of the novel. After having read it I felt I had been there with them, and what a painful experience that was!

It's a very poignant notion that much of what Robbie felt and experienced during the trek to Dunquerque has been imagined and distilled through the guilt and atonement of the contrite Briony.

Offline Fran

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 11:01:00 pm »
Thanks, Mikaela.

Offline southendmd

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2008, 07:28:46 pm »
I just saw Atonement today, and am left with lots of impressions.

I personally enjoy novels or films where the narrator/point of view shifts or is ambiguous and this is certainly the case here.

Because I was very emotionally affected, and a friend I saw it with was not, I had to think of the "universal".  For me, it was the "thou shalt not bear false witness"  thing. 

I think the challenge for the audience is:  can you feel sympathy for Briony?  (This is not the same as forgiveness.)

My sympathy for her came when she told the French soldier, who was obviously going to die, that she loved him.  Perhaps her first completely selfless act (and, perhaps, also a lie).  To me, she suddenly became human, with his blood on her face. 

Clearly, as a girl, she was in love with Robbie; I'm sure she was confused by the sexual images she witnessed between him and Cee.  Don't forget, 13 year olds can have intense sexual feelings.  One can see how her jealousy led to her lie, which takes him away from her sister. 

Of course, we have to think about the "atonement" of the title:  she has to live with the guilt and widespread effects of her actions for the next 60+ years. 

As a side note, I found the "mole" on her right cheek a physical representation of her "sin".  Notice how it was continued in all three actresses.

Finally, the act of writing the novel, at least to the author, helps redeem her (boy, I love Vanessa Redgrave).  She has given them a life together, their happiness by the "White Cliffs of Dover". 

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2008, 07:51:58 pm »

Finally, the act of writing the novel, at least to the author, helps redeem her (boy, I love Vanessa Redgrave).  She has given them a life together, their happiness by the "White Cliffs of Dover". 


Well, yes, in her mind, she did. But the question is, is that enough of an atonement?

And, Dr. Paul, I have a question for you.  I am convinced the whole middle section is written as Briony envisioned it. Even though we feel like we are with Robbie in France, that is how Briony pictured it for Robbie in France. I posted this over on IMDb (and some rude person shot me down)....someone was complaining that Robbie's death seemed odd. He was talking and seemed okay one minute, then started babbling nonsense, then boom! he was dead. If you notice, the French soldier did the same thing. I said that the French soldier died of sepsis and was the first person Briony had ever seen die. When she heard that Robbie died of sepsis, she wrote Robbie's death (which we saw) based on her experience of the French soldier. The person who shot me down said, "Don't be stupid, he didn't die of sepsis, he died of a hole in his head." But my contention (and I stand by this) is that since the hole in his head didn't kill him instantly, it wasn't going to kill him slowly--something else would. In this case, infection. Which isn't hard to believe when you look at that filthy bandage! Thoughts on this?

As I have continued to think about this, I have come up with other items which I think point to the notion of it all being Briony's POV. Which doesn't mean it is all fictitious--she did do some research (which she says in the interview). But she was able to bend things just enough to assuage her conscience.

L
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Offline southendmd

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2008, 08:06:35 pm »
Her living with the guilt, and making reparations via her writing is her atonement.  Is is enough?  That's for the audience to decide. 

I didn't really worry about the medical realism.  Luc could just have easily have died from blood loss as from infection from the hole in his head.  I seem to remember Robbie poked at a hole in his chest--more symbolism?

Certainly we learn that much of the film is from Briony's POV.  Despite her "research", it's a novel, and not a history. 

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2008, 08:11:49 pm »
I saw Atonement and I liked it, but it didn't effect as much as BBM.

****** SPOILERS  ******

I thought Briony was telling the truth at the end.

She had lied in the beginning.   She had lied with her novel telling herself and the world Cecie and Robbie had had a happy life.  She had lied to herself that somehow fiction could make up for their lost love.

I think her atonement was finally telling the truth, facing up to what really happened.  Perhaps realizing there was no way for her to make up for it.

I liked the way the story played with the idea that fiction writers are essentially liars, sometimes using reality as it happened, sometimes making it come out the way we would have preferred.  Trying to use a lie to tell a truth.

The movie made me want to read the book to see how it's handled there.

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2008, 08:32:14 pm »
Yes, Clyde, I want to read the book, too. It is on my list.

L
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 08:33:59 pm »

I didn't really worry about the medical realism.  Luc could just have easily have died from blood loss as from infection from the hole in his head.  I seem to remember Robbie poked at a hole in his chest--more symbolism?


It wasn't so much the realism as more--how Briony learned what dying looked liked. And that's what she wrote in the story. She thought it would make sense since Robbie died of the same thing as the French solider (Luc? I don't remember the name). That's what I was trying to get at.

L
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Offline Kd5000

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Re: Anybody out there seen Atonement? (SPOILERS)
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2008, 02:01:14 pm »
I just saw the film yesterday.  I've been having the book lying around since Christmas and now I'm going to start reading it.  I'm one of those ppl who likes to see the movie and then read the book, especially when it comes to tradegies.  I will certainly pay attn to details in the book hoping to get  more information as to what Briony was making up and what really transpired. If her book is confessional , why make it up ???   
In some parts of the movie, I wasn't paying sharp attention.  It's only when old Briony (Vannessa Redgrave) says she made it up, i.e. a reunion with her sister and Robbie that I really perked up. 
I really don't have much sympathy for Briony, waiting until she is dying before writing this book.  She should have admitted as much earlier and she might have been able to rest more easily, i.e. I was very young and stupid when I did this and I spent the rest of my life trying to undo the damage.