Author Topic: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?  (Read 73930 times)

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #160 on: December 12, 2007, 09:41:52 am »
To answer you underdown, it is hard for straight males, yes; harder than gay males?

Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??

Will always be happy to get your news,

hugs!

You know, I understand why you pose this question Artiste.  I'm a gay man too, and I completely believe that when it comes to sexuality, straight people have no clue how hard it is to live as a gay man/woman in a predominantly straight world.  A hostile world.  In fact, sometimes I can't tell you if it's a worse fate to be beaten or even murderred for being gay, or to live a lifetime where the majority of the world thinks on some level that there's something wrong with you.

But it bothers me that you answer underdown in this way.  You are right to ask this question, but I think you're being unfair.  underdown was just trying to say that straight men are not without challenges.  Maybe they're more difficult than ours, maybe they're not.  Really, who are we to judge each other?  Does this help any of our causes?
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #161 on: December 12, 2007, 09:59:50 am »
Ineedcrayons, you do not take away this (below and other lines from others) why, even if it is not the subject, but you take my words away often? Why you think for me? You even put words like they are mine, but are not!

Why accept this then: I'm afraid I tend to see the idea that Junior knew her father was gay, and even more was OK with it, as wishful thinking. But then I also come to this question from a life experience of having had a friend, now dead five years from metastatic lung cancer, who had a daughter who had a very difficult time accepting that her father was gay. And she didn't have to figure it out for herself, she was told (perhaps at an age too young to understand, but nevertheless she was told). And this wasn't small town Wyoming thirty years ago, this was the East Coast in the 1990s. They weren't reconciled until near the end of my friend's life. Thankfully, he and his daughter did have a good relationship for the last few years of his life.
...

I see nothing against his words, as I use them as an example... as I do the same as he does. If he can add something like that, then why I can not? Because I am a gay man?

You bewilder me! There is nothing like truth, I say! To those who take offence, that is their problem, and should have the decentcy to tell me about it! I am decent enough to accept their words when I find them offensive! Most times or all times, it is just not understading! You taking me away my freedom of speech to me, is like being anti-gay to me!

I await your answer with open arms so far,

hugs!!

I'm sorry, but anyone who implies that ineedcrayons is unfairly targeting someone because he is a gay man is way ... off ... base.

J.W.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #162 on: December 12, 2007, 10:47:02 am »

True, it has digressed somewhat. It is obviously stirring a lot of deep emotions.

Isn't that what Bettermost is all about? Isn't the motto 'a catalyst for positive change'?

In my book, a catalyst is supposed to cause a reaction, and this topic cetainly has. If the discussion had been confined strictly to the subject, it would not achieve half as much. But there have been comments and questions moved, or deleted. (?)

Now, I am a straight male. One of the few on Bettermost. I do not discriminate against gay or bi people, nor against those for whom this topic raises deep emotions. Nor am I offended in any way. Emotions are healthy: including yours, mine, and those of anyone else who posts in response to these discussion threads.

To Artiste, this thread and the discussion of whether or not Alma Jnr was embarrassed by her Dad's homosexulality may raise the question 'why should anyone be embarrassed by someone because they are gay?' And that becomes emotional. So what? That is a valid question by a thinking person, and a natural result of the thread being a catalyst. As it should be, unless the Bettermost motto is meaningless. Why on earth that should be 'off topic' is beyond me. There were comments directed to an individual member that were deleted, but I am sure they were directed at an emotion being expressed, not to the character.

As has been suggested earlier, Alma Jnr was in a time and place where being open about her Dad's homosexulality, if she really understood it properly anyway, was dynamite. Why is it not ok to try to apply that catalyst of thought to Quebec, in the present, or anywhere else in the world, to pose a question ?
 

I could take offence that people make assumptions simply because I am straight and therefore obviously 'just like all the rest of them', but don't, because I know it is usually the bigots and people who just want to be noticed who criticise the most, and the genuinely loving who are belted with tyre irons by those people who blindly follow the carping and criticising loudmouths.

I don't know any gay men with 19 year-old daughters. It must be difficult for them to know how they think towards their Dad, although sisters are something of an insight.
I have two daughters who were 19 not so long ago, (twins) one of whom accepts me totally as I am; a straight male who loves and likes and feels, sometimes loves the wrong people, and makes mistakes. The other is critical because I am single again, thinks I embarrass her, and therefore must prefer people outside of her family.

Do you think, Artiste, it could sometimes be just as hard being a straight male?


Thank you 'Underdown' for your excellent insights. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I especially agreed with your observation that this web site can be a "catalyst for positive change". This is a very important comment.

It is my opinion that when any thought earnestly delivered in the spirit of the web site is censored, it must be done so reluctantly and conservatively.

Since Bettermost is a diverse community by any measure - different ages, genders, orientations, occupations and life experiences, ideologies, and geographical locations - we have a unique opportunity to learn from each other.

We do not learn from each other if we shut each other down. It is very easy to cry: " I am offended !" or,  "I am bored - you are off topic !"

'Underdown', you indicate that you could take offense at some of the assumptions made about straight men, but you chose to not do so. Very good, I thank you for that reasonable and logical approach to the dialog. I am a gay man who has had experiences similar to Ennis and Jack in my life. Sometimes I am frustrated at reading some of the posts from well meaning and caring Bettermostians who make assumptions that are way off base in regard to the lives of the characters in Brokeback Mountain. But I do not let that stop me from reaching out, we just have a long way to go in our dialog. That is OK, with age has come a bit more patience on my part.

HUGS!

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #163 on: December 12, 2007, 12:39:57 pm »
Thanks underdown, thanks dellavia, thanks AussiChris, thanks Jeff Wrangler, thanks brokeplex, and thanks to all others too!!

Firstly, may I search to continue to reply to underdown. After a long night of dreams plus one dream which was the last in which there was strained as well as new searching, I just re-read your comment. I understand it better now, I think and appreciate it. I would also like your replies to my questions, please when you can. You say: I don't know any gay men with 19 year-old daughters. It must be difficult for them to know how they think towards their Dad, although sisters are something of an insight.
I have two daughters who were 19 not so long ago, (twins) one of whom accepts me totally as I am; a straight male who loves and likes and feels, sometimes loves the wrong people, and makes mistakes. The other is critical because I am single again, thinks I embarrass her, and therefore must prefer people outside of her family.

Do you think, Artiste, it could sometimes be just as hard being a straight male?


........................
Underdown, you do say that you do not know of any gay man with 19 years-old daughters. Since you do have two 19 years-olds, they do reactdiffently to you, even if you are straight (not bi nor gay or otherwise). You figure that one acts better towards you (now single), but that the other is negative ( critical). May I ask if these two were always like this? Or is it because you are now single?

If I understand you, then an 19 years-daughter can think!! And even accept certain  situation(s) such as divorse (in your case I do not know if it is separation or divorse or something else, but may I use the word divorse?). But, even if they are twins, the other is critical about you being now single, is that her main reason?

So do you figure that Alma Jr should be critical of her father or  accepts her father for being an hetero-in-his-own way, an bi, or a gay man??

Like others on Bettermost, you may ask me any questions, any time. I will try to reply, and if I don't, please do not be shy to re-ask, as often as you like... in order for me to create replies which will determine possible an anwser with details. At times, it take months or years to get an answer, to find it!! That's life, since it's a search for bettermost... among details, facts, one life's and/or other lives!!

To answer you to your last question, I have to live in fear everyday as a gay man; I do not know if you understand that? Tell me please.

You being straight, must have better chances at life, not being in fear for one's life because you are straight, yes or no, or???

Of course, straight men have hard times, and maybe that is one reason why straights and gay men could, should or must try to help each other?? As in Bettermost, may I suggest.

.................................................................................................

I will re-read your answers all of you and reply, as soon as possible. Be assured that I am grateful for them, as I glanced and am happy concerning these. It makes me think and enjoy life better. I must now go to work... create paintings.

...........................................................................

Ineedcrayons, please be assured too that I am happy with you and your thoughts and help. I do not understand all the moderators who take away a word, words, sentences, text or even a subject of mine, but at times, I re-read why or my writings and do understand, but at other times I do not know why; anyhow, I guess that it is like a court case?? To me, to others and surely to you too (from what and how you act and react to me), we all like freedom of expression!! At least, let us all become better humans trying to help each other and one self!! We do succed at times, in many wondrous ways, here on Bettermost! Again, thanks ineedcrayons! And hugs!
...............

Hugs to all!!

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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #164 on: December 12, 2007, 02:30:33 pm »
I'm sorry, but anyone who implies that ineedcrayons is unfairly targeting someone because he is a gay man is way ... off ... base.

J.W.


Just for the records: It wasn't Katherine who edited a post yesterday, it was me and I made it clear it was me by saying so in bold letters.

Nothing was cencored, nothing was deleted, nothing was added; only a part of a post was moved, that's all. Since  I added the link to where this part is to be found now, it is just one click away for everybody who is interested to read it.

I hope this information settles the matter.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #165 on: December 12, 2007, 02:41:13 pm »
Thank you, Jeff and Penth.

Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??

Actually, more than half of all straight people DO have to worry about being attacked or murdered -- not because they are straight, but for another demographic reason: because they are female.

I have no idea how the dangers to the two groups compare. Obviously there are more women than gay people, so statistically I believe there are more hate crimes against women. On the other hand, there is more homophobia out there than sexism -- and homophobia is more hostile and potentially violent -- so gay people are probably at greater risk in proportion to their population. On the other hand, gay people can't necessarily be instantly identified as gay, whereas women usually can ... It gets complicated.

But the point is not comparing the risk of one or the other. My point is that many attacks against women -- rapes, beatings, murders, etc. -- are hate crimes. As a society, we're so used to them we tend to forget that.




Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #166 on: December 12, 2007, 05:25:23 pm »
A few answers in progress. But it will take a while as it will be between 'phone calls at work.  :)

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #167 on: December 12, 2007, 05:41:07 pm »
Thanks ineedcrayons, and thanks Penthesilea!!

Penthesila, glad that you do clarify and add what was missing!! Qu'est-ce sera, sera, as the song says,: whatever will be, will be, since ineedcrayons and you will do your part and I will too to seek freedom for everyone (in the world, may I add), and most certainly here on Bettermost because we help each other in hard and in good times!! We even laugh, cry and hug!!!
....................................................................

Ineedcrayons, I am surprised by what you say, but I should not be. I totally agree with you. So, I do say that gays and straights can help each other... somehow in wondrous ways to create peace and joys!! As life is worth living that way!! You say: Quote from: Artiste on Yesterday at 10:40:56 PM
Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??

Actually, more than half of all straight people DO have to worry about being attacked or murdered -- not because they are straight, but for another demographic reason: because they are female.

I have no idea how the dangers to the two groups compare. Obviously there are more women than gay people, so statistically I believe there are more hate crimes against women. On the other hand, there is more homophobia out there than sexism -- and homophobia is more hostile and potentially violent -- so gay people are probably at greater risk in proportion to their population. On the other hand, gay people can't necessarily be instantly identified as gay, whereas women usually can ... It gets complicated.

But the point is not comparing the risk of one or the other. My point is that many attacks against women -- rapes, beatings, murders, etc. -- are hate crimes. As a society, we're so used to them we tend to forget that.



[
/i]
Ineedcrayons, re-reading you, I have no idea why I am surprised about your sentence, stating that more than half of people on earth do fear as straights since you are females, as your statement was surprising I guess. Yesterday, a young women (14, 15, or 16 years of age) was killed by her father, because she was refusing to wear her muslim head scarf; that happened near Toronto, Canada, in an democratic country! So, I understand her fears too, since her father obliged her brother and sister to see if she did wear that religous clothing at her high school, but she brought other garments which she wanted and loved to show her beautiful hair (at school)! Such murders are happening too often, as far as I am concerned. and is one reason why we need to educate. How?

She deserved to live her own life, it seems to me.

Quebec is called lately by some as negative society, since freedom loving persons are demanding that such actrocities stop, and that such anti-freedom groups of immigrants entering be educated. Laws in Canada are also being rediculed and not used by some with such so-called religious anti-women, anti-gay, and anti-freedom actions!!
And, I am not only talking about islam!

Why do I mention this here? In the movie, it seems to me that Alma Jr. is freedom loving, as she accepts her father as he is: hetero as for one marriage only with a woman he married, bi or gay, and/or otherwise!!  May I express that we need more Alma Juniors in our democratic societies and in other countries throughout the world?? !! She is freedom loving, surely??

Awaiting your news, and that of all,
hugs!!

Offline TOoP/Bruce

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #168 on: December 12, 2007, 05:52:16 pm »
Quote
Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

I think there are hints to that effect in the script, but I don't think that can be inferred from the story.  I think we see Alma as a female version of her father, laconic and somewhat cryptic, and as someone who loves Ennis despite the fact that he would never be nominated for father of the year.  My experience is that many children are uncomfortable about their parents' sexuality in general and despite any suspicions, would probably prefer not to ask.  When they eventually find out, it usually matters less than most people would think. 

My parents weren't perfect, but I still love 'em, even though they are no longer together.
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #169 on: December 12, 2007, 06:16:13 pm »
Thanks TOoP/Bruce!

You sure say lots here, as well as simply precise! I must re-read and think!!
You comment: Quote
Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

I think there are hints to that effect in the script, but I don't think that can be inferred from the story.  I think we see Alma as a female version of her father, laconic and somewhat cryptic, and as someone who loves Ennis despite the fact that he would never be nominated for father of the year.  My experience is that many children are uncomfortable about their parents' sexuality in general and despite any suspicions, would probably prefer not to ask.  When they eventually find out, it usually matters less than most people would think. 

My parents weren't perfect, but I still love 'em, even though they are no longer together.
 
 

...
To reply to you TOoP/Bruce, you make me think when you say this way as described with such details that Alma jr. is an female version of her father!! Indeed, I think she is... I guess, and in many ways: she thinks a lot, like her father?? She also has an eye like him? At least, in the movie! Likely not in the book, as you say. But why this accent in the movie via Jr.? To make us think that she knew that her dad was gay, and/or for other reasons?? Like for issues too??

Hugs!

Hugs!