TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

[Marge_Innavera]

I definitely agree there, Marge.  But there's a huge difference between hearing gayness mentioned on the TV or by giggly highschoolers, and making the leap that your big, macho, stoic father has been faking straight since before you were born, you know?

Actually, that's one of the reasons I suspect that if Ennis ever came out to either of his daughters, it would be a good distance in the future.

I mean, even if Ennis was straight, never met Jack and his marriage broke up for other reasons -- how many people feel at ease discussing their sex life with their children, even adult children; or vice versa. For a lot of us, just the thought of our parents having sex causes the heebie-jeebies.   

[Marge_Innavera]

I don't think that there is evidence one way or the other as to Alma's intellectual abilities or her chioice of reading materials  . Just because someone is not quoting Proust or making up cute Haiku verse on screen, that doesn't make them a dummy. She was a reticent young woman who would soon be finding her own way in life. She wanted her Daddy, whom she loved, to be at her wedding. She related to him in a way that convinced him to quit his job cowboying in the Tetons and attend her wedding. I'd say she was a very skillful young lady, even Jack couldn't always get Ennis to quit his job in order to see him!

Yes, most of the shortcomings a viewer could come up with about Junior -- based on what little we're told about her -- can be attributed to her age. We can only speculate about what she'd be like with some years on her.

IMO her wanting her father at her wedding, and looking so happy when he says he'll be there, is not ony totally understandable; in a way it's an indication of how this father-daughter connection has persisted in spite of everything. Just the fact that she even asks her father to be at her wedding indicates that there are quite a few bridges to be mended, most of it caused by neglect. 

Or put it this way: I never invited my own father to my wedding, and he would have been totally mystified if I had -- he just assumed he'd be walking me down the aisle the minute I announced my engagement.

[Artiste]

At least Alma Jr. is a decent person.

Unlike her mother who is vicious, Alma Jr. accepts her father being a gay man or an bi-person!!

Hugs!

[souxi]

I wouldn,t say that Alma senior was vicious. You have to remember that she loved Ennis, and as if that wasn,t bad enough that he loved someone else and not her, what made it doubly worse for her, was that it was a man. That had to hurt.

[Artiste]

Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!

Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!

Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!

Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??

A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!

However, Alma Jr. was kind to her father, even if she knew that he was a bi or gay man!  Alma Jr. was not vicious, but could have been like her mother!!  Alma Jr. is not anti-gay like her mother is!

Things to think about...
hugs!

[delalluvia]

Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!

Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!

Viciously?  How did she end it viciously?  She asked for a divorce and probably never told a soul why exactly.  That speaks to a great deal of decency on her part.

Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!

Ennis was a poor father and a poor husband.  He used the marriage to justify his heterosexual status, not because he honored his marriage to Alma in any true form.

Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??

Do we know this for certain?  And if we can suspect Alma about playing the field, we have no doubts about Ennis, now do we?  He was certainly unfaithful to Alma, wasn't he?

A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!

How is she vicious?  She invited the man so he could be with his children.  Sounds pretty gracious to me.  That she confronts Ennis about his infidelity/homosexuality is actually quite normal, perfectly justified and was a long time in coming, IMO.  Just her timing was off - Thanksgiving wasn't the place for it.

[Katie77]

Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!

Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!

Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!

Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??

A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!

However, Alma Jr. was kind to her father, even if she knew that he was a bi or gay man!  Alma Jr. was not vicious, but could have been like her mother!!  Alma Jr. is not anti-gay like her mother is!

Things to think about...
hugs!

OMG !!!!........OMG!!!!........I am practically speeechless,to think that anyone would have this opinion of Alma.....I'm starting to wonder whether we saw the same movie or read the same story.....

"She could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously"....??......Alma was a woman, a wife and a mother........not a robot........not a saint.....

And Ennis was the "decent one" because "he would have kept on with the marriage"......?.....Yeah, pretty decent of him to spend all his work holidays with someone else, quit his jobs without any consideration for his family's financial welfare, not to mention the extra sexual activity......decent..

And finally..."a real lady finding out her husband was bi or gay, would not have acted the way she did"..........

Now let me tell you how a real lady in that position acts......she puts up with it for a while, even welcomes his gay friends into her home, she accepts that her husband is gay, and that he cannot love her like she loves him, then eventually she realizes that she needs to remove herself and her two daughters from the situation, so her husband can go on with the life he needs and she can go on with the life that she needs......she remains on friendly terms with her husband and his male partner, invites them to share Christmas and other activities with his daughters in her new family setting, and  she goes out to work to give some financial security to her and her daughters.....She does not discuss the real reason for her marriage breakdown, she does not try to turn her daughters off their father by telling them that he is bad, or that he is a homosexual, she knows in time, when they are old enough, that he will tell them, in the way that they will understand......Was she hurting???.....too dam right she was hurting, and she knew her husband was too.....She loved him until the day he died....

........She sounds a lot like Alma dont you think.........well its not Alma I am writing about here....
.........I am writing about MY OWN MOTHER........
 

[tampatalon]

I think that Alma Senior did the best she could do for her situation and she did act like a lady as
Katie has described. If Ennis had fessed up to her at Thanksgiving, I could only imagine that many family wounds would have started and I stress only started to heal for her and Ennis. I believe that Alma Senior did be a lady and protect Ennis from the town talk by her silence on his preference.For the place and time period, she did the best for her family, including Ennis.

TampaTalon^">

[delalluvia]

OMG !!!!........OMG!!!!........I am practically speeechless,to think that anyone would have this opinion of Alma.....I'm starting to wonder whether we saw the same movie or read the same story

I agree Katie and I think it does a great disservice to Annie Proulx, Ang Lee and the writers to believe that Alma was a screeching, homophobic harridan bitch who deserved everything that happened to her.

To portray the wives this way in the movie would have made it very easy to drum up sympathy for the main characters:

"See?  Their wives are such vicious evil women, no wonder the men turned away from them.  They deserved to be cheated on"

But that's too Hollywood.  The good guy wears a white hat and the bad guy wears a black hat.

Instead, Ang and the writers went out of their way to make as realistic a story as possible.  Alma didn't do anything wrong.  She was a sweet girl, deeply in love with a man who couldn't love her back.  She never turned mean, she never took it out on him, she finally, simply just left him and didn't say a word, though she most certainly would have been justified in doing so.

BBM is a tragedy, and not just for Ennis and Jack.  Ang wanted us to see how the chains of keeping people from being themselves creates pain and misery not just for those directly affected, but for everyone around them - and that includes their wives and children.

[jstephens9]

BBM is a tragedy, and not just for Ennis and Jack.  Ang wanted us to see how the chains of keeping people from being themselves creates pain and misery not just for those directly affected, but for everyone around them - and that includes their wives and children.

You sure are right about that. It is very sad to see how many people can be affected by someone not being able to live their true life. And in many cases they actually think they are protecting others such as their wives and children. As far as Junior goes I do think she deeply loves her father and I do not think that would change if she did know he was gay. I think his happiness would truly be more important to her.