Author Topic: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?  (Read 74666 times)

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 08:05:42 pm »
Wow, what an intriguing question this is for me......ive done a lot of soul searching here....not only thinking, "did Alma Jnr know Ennis was gay"...but..."did I know MY dad was gay".....

To put you in the picture, I will briefly tell you my story....will try to keep it short so as not to bore you.....

My father separated from my mother when i was seven (in 1958) to live with his male partner....they lived together for the following 14years....i lived with my mother, but had continual and constant contact and visits with my dad and his partner....back in those days...late fifties, and thru the sixties, homosexuality was illegal here in Australia, so my dad and his partner just told everyone that they were brothers, and if I ever talked about Allen (dad's partner) i too, just referred to him as "dads brother".....(funnily enough, i never referred to him as "my uncle", he was "dads brother").....i loved him dearly as I was growing up, thought of him like a big brother, he was only ten years older  than me, spoilt me and my sister, took us to the pictures, the beach, bought us records (musical ones), we had a great relationship.....they also came to my mums home for christmas, birthdays etc, so the family unit, although unusual, especially for those times, was still a happy and comfortable family unit.

I have been sitting here trying to think back, as to whether I KNEW my father was gay......(we used the term "homosexual" then)......

I guess I knew that Dad and Allen had a "partnership" of some sorts, knew that they were a "couple".....but as it is with most children, no matter what era they grow up in, no matter who their mother or father are living with....kids dont relate or even think too much about, the sexual side of their parents relationship......I was no different.....

I guess, because of the era, I was not subjected to too many questions or inuendos from my friends....when they asked who Allen was, I just said "Dad's brother", and that was accepted, no more questions asked....there was no embarrassment or any feeling of "hiding" anything.

Ironically, I was more embarrassed about the fact that my mum and dad were divorced, than anything else, because in those days, not many, if any, of my friends had parents who were divorced....(how times have changed)...

When I was 16, and had just met my future husband, my dad, actually sat me down and spoke the words, saying....."you probably all ready have guessed it, but I need to tell you, Allen and I are homosexual"....

You know how it is, when your parents sit you down to tell you about the "birds and the bees"?....you all ready know, and its a bit embarrassing actually hearing them say it....??.....well, thats what it was like.....he told me,I was a bit embarrassed.... then we just went on the way we had always gone on......easy as that...

In the following years, my Dad and Allen's life changed, as did my own....things happened that I did not understand, Allen left Dad....a few years later,Dad committed suicide...some very tragic times......and many years, of pushing a lot of things out of my mind....

Seeing the movie, finally made me see and realize the emotional side of my father's relationship.....finally made me understand the kind of love he had for Allen, and the pressures and social discrimination that they both endured to have that relationship.....knowing my Dad, when I look back now, he must have been so happy that me and my sister, just accepted them as who they were, we loved them both and knew they loved us.....what else mattered.....???

As I watched the movie, I probably saw for the first time, through Alma Jnr's eyes, what I myself had seen all those years ago.....my Dad, too, went off to live alone in a caravan (trailor), just like Ennis did....like her, I sat on the bed, and looked at my lonely Dad, and knew that he had lost the love of his life, knew that he loved me, but mourned the losss of the love that he could have no more......

I dont know if she thought her dad was "gay"....but she did know he had loved someone, and I assume she knew it was Jack who had been the one, he had loved and lost......
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 09:20:05 pm »
IMO, no, she did not.

I could see it if Junior lived in a big city or if she was really sophisticated and in modern times, attached to the internet and exposed to TV shows that showcased or co-starred gay men.

She had no exposure to any of that.

She is kept very sheltered and she lives in a very small world in small town Wyoming.  She most certainly is dragged to church by her mother.  While Alma may at some point discuss sex with her daughters, she will most certainly not do it when her daughters are young.  And when the time comes for the 'talk', due to her bitterness about Ennis affairs, she certainly won't bring up homosexuality.  She thinks it's disgusting and nasty.  Why would she discuss it with her daughter?  Junior doesn't have a boyfriend at the time she asks to move in with Ennis, so I'm thinking she has no experience/knowledge about heterosexual sex much less the magnitude of variations thereof.

So, IMO, no, she does not.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 09:24:14 pm »
Thank You for sharing those thoughts and memories with us Sue. 

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 11:30:26 pm »
Hey Katie77, thanks so much for telling us your story here. :)


As to Alma Jr.... yes, I do think that by the end of the movie she knows or at least strongly suspects.  The way Alma Jr. is portrayed in the film... she seems really, really introspective and probably very observant and intelligent (at least these are the vibes she gives off for me).  And, of course, I think we're supposed to think that her quiet ways are very much like her Daddy's... and that they're probably very much tuned-in to one another (this wouldn't necessarily mean that she would be able to intuit her father's secret without the supporting evidence already cited in earlier posts). 

I think the exchange with Cassie about "not the marrying kind" is our strongest clue that Alma Jr. may know.

Maybe how a viewer answers this question is also a test much like the "how did Jack die" test.  If you completely or at least strongly believe that Alma Jr. knows... then the last conversation between Ennis and Alma Jr. in the trailer could take on very, very deep meaning.  If Alma Jr. understands the subtext of the discussion of "love".... then this scene would be viewed very differently from a viewer who really doesn't believe that Alma Jr. knows.

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Offline louisev

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2007, 11:35:15 pm »
I say she knew.  That I believe is what that whole Alma Jr and Cassie scene was about - to show that a) Junior knew and knew that her mother hated him for it and that b) it was okay with her but she didn't want him making the mistake of marrying Cassie as another coverup and so did what she could, subtly, to chase Cassie off.
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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 12:32:48 am »
Wow, all these responses are all so interesting, and different.  I'm not sure whether or not I believe Alma Jr. knew Ennis was gay. At least not as early as the bar scene when she said to Cassie "maybe he's not the marrying kind."   I think if anything she might have known when she came to Ennis' trailer, way out in the middle of nowhere, to let him know that she was getting married.  It was to be a June wedding and she was hopin he would be there.   By that time he was so all alone.  He had nothing.  His life was dispair and he may have found confidence in his little girl to share his pain with about loosing his Jack.  He loved her so much, and she was the only one he truly trusted with his heart.

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 12:54:58 am »
Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

Yes.

And Katie, the story of your father is beautiful then painfully tragic. I'm glad your father had some good years and he's very lucky to have the family who opened their arms to him and his partner despite the struggle homosexuals endured during those years.
When I left my wife and met the man of my dreams, we too felt like we had to live as brothers to be accepted in the rural community we live, and it was 1990. Turns out, it was all in our head. Like your dad, we have a very loving and accepting family (all red neck and most to the right of issues) and a tolerant and accepting group of people (all straight) we live around and interact with on an almost daily basis.
Thanks again for your story.

Brad

Offline jstephens9

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 10:38:33 am »
Sue,

I am so glad that your shared this period of time in your life with us. I think people telling us things like this open the world up for so many of us. Hearing what someone has been through, how they reacted to it, what their thoughts were, etc. are more valuable than any book, any class, or anything else we can ever read. I have always been a firm believer in the idea that the only way you truly can feel or know something is to live it which you truly did. I work in a university setting where there are so many teachers (professors) teaching about things that they have only read about that were written by scholars who probably never lived it either. I never will forget my sociology classes where I read about homosexuality and was taught about it. It was so obvious that these people had absolutely no idea what it was really like. They had never lived it. Another example of this is that I have several very good friends who are fireman. I have heard from each of them how people will come and teach them about firefighting. And guess what, these people who are teaching have never even been in a burning building. The fireman resent it and I can completely understand why. I know sometimes I get long winded, but you sharing this REAL story of your life and how you saw your dad and his partner means you lived it, you saw it with your own eyes, and felt it with your own senses.

Jack

Offline ProwlAmongUs

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 12:32:40 am »
Yes, I think she knew her dad was gay, but I don't think she was able to put a label to it in her mind. I believe out of all the characters except Jack, she understood Ennis better than anyone. Her quiet understanding and love for her father is apparent to the point of being protective of him when Cassie enters his life. She was progressive in her thinking for her age and for the time period, but again, was probably ignorant of the terms and what those terms entailed. It would be normal for someone her age at that time and place to "see the trees, but be confused by the forest." Hey, when I was her age, I still thought "gay" meant something fun and exciting, and that was a few years after 1963, although not many.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 04:15:50 am »
Thank you all very much for your comments on my post.....

To tell you the truth, I am still soul searching.....did I know??...did Alma Jnr know????

I guess the bottom line is, she DID NOT know, but she obviously knew threre was something about her dad that she could not quite put her finger on, but knew whatever it was it had a hold on him and was responsible for the sadness and loneliness he was feeling....

Sad to say, Alma Jnr, probably would not have realized the full true story about her dad, until after he had gone, and when she would have found the shirts hanging in his closet....then, it would become clear to her and she would finally understand.

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection