Author Topic: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?  (Read 73942 times)

Online southendmd

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2007, 06:42:19 pm »
I think Alma was genuine in her caring for Ennis, and her comment about "me and the girls worry about you", was a gesture of that.

Then he let go with the "once burned" comment, which was like putting condemnation and blame on her.....and that was, I think, the straw that broke the camels back with Alma, as far as taking any of the blame for the marriage not working.She probably thought....."ok, enoughs enough, Im gonna let him know who and what did cause our marriage to disintegrate"......

Up until the time she spat out the "Jack Nasty" words, Ennis did not have any idea that Alma had had any suspicions about Jack, he thought he had got away with all of it, without her knowing anything, and he knew that everything she was saying to him was true. She was not only letting him know that she was aware that his "fishing trips" were a lie, she was telling him that she knew that Jack was more than just a fishing buddy to him.

The fact that she had held all that in for so long, is testement to her good nature....and also, I think she would have been afraid to confront him with it, while they were still married, because of his temper....the time had come, he lit the fuse with the "once burned" comment, and she exploded with the "Jack Nasty" one.........



Yes, Katie, I like what you say.  From Alma's point of view, Jack was  indeed the cause of their failed marriage, and she held it in for close to ten years.

I think Annie said something about the wives' learning some "pretty tough lessons about life", as a result of this love between Jack and Ennis. 

Online southendmd

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2007, 06:48:22 pm »
Katherine, I was also thinking about that old phrase "confirmed bachelor", along with "not the marrying kind", as polite euphemisms for "suspiciously gay". 

It reminds me of hearing the news about Rock Hudson and HIV.  I recall my mother saying that it must have been from a transfusion.  (At least she didn't say from a toilet seat LOL).  I remember (boldly) saying, "Well, that's a bit naive, isn't it?" 

In other words, "polite" folks didn't assume people--especially famous people, or those they actually knew--were gay. 

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2007, 06:50:25 pm »
This is off subject......but Southendmd......I do love your signature clips...........watch them over and over again......
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Online southendmd

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2007, 06:51:32 pm »
This is off subject......but Southendmd......I do love your signature clips...........watch them over and over again......

They are kind of mesmerizing...

On dial-up, they're often in slow-motion!

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2007, 07:35:54 pm »
Thanks ineedcrayons!

You say this: At that point, Alma Jr. may not know WHY he isn't the marryin kind, though. It seems to me that nowadays, when we look back on what in those days they'd call "confirmed bachelors" and the like, we now kind of assume that many of them were probably gay. But back while those days were still happening, the idea that they were gay probably didn't cross as many straight people's minds, and they just assumed they were men who preferred living alone. Does that make sense? And do those with a longer view of gay history agree?


...

May I say that you bring up a real good subject, indeed!! Could that be that too to-day??

When married to men ladies, asked me how come I am not married, mother protected me saying that there are many confirmed bachelors in our family, and partenal one too!! That did mean that, and not gay!!
...

I think you may have something to start a thread here with your comment??

...

To me, it is obvious in many ways in the movie, that Alma Jr. knew that her father was/is bi or gay!!

It is so nice to hear from you again, and am awaiting your news,

hugs!!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2007, 08:25:35 pm »
Yes, it occurred to me, too, that this might be an interesting subject for a thread. I will consider opening one in Safe Haven.


Offline cricket99999

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2007, 02:43:47 pm »
My two cents:

By the time she's at that bar with Ennis and Cassie, I believe Alma Jr. is plenty aware about sexual issues as well as the existence of gays.  This is post-sexual revolution.  She must have sensed something different about Ennis, and suspected.

Isn't that the main point of the conversation with Cassie?  For those who don't think Alma Jr had an inkling about Ennis: what was the point of the "not the marrying kind" scene?

Even the final scene is diminished in its power if Alma Jr. is thought to be clueless.  IMO

Alma Jr. likely picked up on clues throughout her teens, and slowly became aware.  For example, not only was the hug a clue, when she was barely a teen and Jack drove all the way from Texas after hearing of the divorce.  It was the hug, plus Jack suddenly leaving, plus the lingering distress she would have sensed in her father.

Surely Ennis didn't get in the truck and suddenly start acting normal? 

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2007, 03:36:48 pm »

Even the final scene is diminished in its power if Alma Jr. is thought to be clueless.  IMO
 

I agree with this idea that the interpretation and power of the final scene in BBM must be very different for viewers who believe Junior knows vs. viewers who believe she really doesn't know.


I still contend that probably beginning with the "not the marrying kind" scene, through to the end... Junior has a vague notion or hunch that Ennis may be gay.  I don't know that the idea ever becomes entirely concrete... and I'm sure the details remain fuzzy to her.  But, I do think she has a hunch.

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2007, 07:17:44 pm »
If we return to the original story, it is interesting to speculate on how Ennis would have fared staying with his married daughter (not specifically named, but very likely Junior) and son-in-law after his eviction from the ranch. Specifically, I'm wondering how he would have handled the transfer of the shirts-and-postcard shrine to his temporary new domicile (though I seem to recall his trailer going with him, he would not necessarily be staying in it while relying on his child's hospitality). The shrine in the story hangs upon the trailer wall, and anyone who investigated it would probably have some curiosity about how it came to be there and what it meant. Any encounter with the shrine on Junior's part would have had to bolster any speculations she might have had concerning her father's private life.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2007, 07:47:19 pm »
Quote
If we return to the original story, it is interesting to speculate on how Ennis would have fared staying with his married daughter (not specifically named, but very likely Junior) and son-in-law after his eviction from the ranch. Specifically, I'm wondering how he would have handled the transfer of the shirts-and-postcard shrine to his temporary new domicile (though I seem to recall his trailer going with him, he would not necessarily be staying in it while relying on his child's hospitality). The shrine in the story hangs upon the trailer wall, and anyone who investigated it would probably have some curiosity about how it came to be there and what it meant. Any encounter with the shrine on Junior's part would have had to bolster any speculations she might have had concerning her father's private life.

Scott, if I recall correctly, the shirts are hung on a nail which (in the film) is driven into the inside of Ennis' closet door. Remember, in the very last frame he closes this door and the window to the outside becomes visible? I believe it's that way in the book too. (The closet in the film looks like a portable one, one that could just be carried into a house or wherever.)

But anyway, the crux of your question is most interesting! I have to agree with Katie and others here that if Junior was involved in the handling of Ennis' property upon his death (or debilitation), the "shrine" would be the final piece of the puzzle to confirm to her that yes, the love of her father's life was a man.