Author Topic: The Morality Quiz  (Read 42963 times)

Offline Kerry

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The Morality Quiz
« on: November 27, 2007, 08:01:53 am »

The Morality Quiz

The deepest foundation on which morality is built is the phenomenon of empathy, the understanding that what hurts me would feel the same way to you. And human ego notwithstanding, it's a quality other species share. While it's impossible to directly measure empathy in animals, in humans it's another matter. An example of a dilemma used to study human morality is outlined below. Could you be the one to do the dastardly deed?

The Crying Baby Scenario
It's war time, and you're hiding in a basement with a group of other people. Enemy soldiers are approaching outside and will be drawn to any sound. If you're found, you'll all be killed immediately. A baby hiding with you starts to cry loudly and cannot be stopped. Smothering it to death is the only way to silence it, saving the lives of everyone in the room. Assume that the parents of the baby are unknown and not present and there will be no penalty for killing the child. Could you be the one who smothered it if no one else would?


Take the full quiz with additional scenarios to see how you compare to other time.com readers at time.com/morality and then read how scientists are using these dilemmas to study morality.

Beware Spoiler: At the time I responded to the above Crying Baby Scenario, 26,830 responses had been recorded, of which 44% voted they could not smother the baby and 56% voted they could.

A very interesting, sobering exercise.

With thanks to time.com
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Dagi

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 08:46:17 am »
I've already read about this question/scenario.

Given that all of us, that means, the baby too, will be killed immediately in case we are found, it is not a situation where I have to weigh up lives - it's the baby, or the baby plus all the others. So, the right thing to do would be to kill the baby.

But the question was if I was actually capable of smothering the baby. I have only once been in a live threatening situation before, so I think I can hardly imagine what people in such a situation feel like. I would certainly hope for somebody else to do it. But if I'd come to understand in the end that nobody else is going to do it, maybe I would be capable, yes. The fact that the parents are not around sure would "help". A possible punishment would not influence me, since I'm aware of the fact that I would in any case have to deal with my deed for the rest of my life.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 10:55:37 am »
Sad exercise, but yes, I could smother the baby.  It's dead either way, isn't it?  But being smothered makes its death not in vain, unlike being executed out of hand by a death squad.

I read about this situation in a fictional war novel - however, the baby survived, but was brain damaged.

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 11:28:44 am »
Jesus showed by example that it is better to be killed than it is to kill.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 03:16:11 pm »
Jesus showed by example that it is better to be killed than it is to kill.

OK, but remember, in the example the people are hiding from the soldiers.  They don't want to be killed.  If they wanted to be an example, they didn't have to hide and would just wait like lambs for the slaughter.

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 03:22:07 pm »
OK, but remember, in the example the people are hiding from the soldiers.  They don't want to be killed.  If they wanted to be an example, they didn't have to hide and would just wait like lambs for the slaughter.
Jesus didn't necessarily want to be killed either, yet he submitted to it. One can take active measures to avoid being killed and yet submit to it after all past a certain point, which might include coming across an ethical dilemma that can't easily be resolved.

For the record, I am not a Christian, yet I think one can still admire and learn from Jesus's life and teachings.

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 03:27:28 pm »
Didn't y'all see the final episode of M*A*S*H?

Offline opinionista

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 03:30:34 pm »
How about putting a hand on the baby's mouth? I think there's probably more than one way to keep the baby quiet without having to kill him/her.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 03:38:50 pm »
Jesus didn't necessarily want to be killed either, yet he submitted to it.

Well, that was because he was supposedly the son of god and he had a destiny to fulfill.  He also had the knowledge that he would be resurrected.  These people don't have divine destinies or the knowledge of any resurrection.

Quote
One can take active measures to avoid being killed and yet submit to it after all past a certain point, which might include coming across an ethical dilemma that can't easily be resolved.  For the record, I am not a Christian, yet I think one can still admire and learn from Jesus's life and teachings.

True, but again, what would be the point?  Trying to escape a death squad with an infant is already asking for trouble.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 03:41:12 pm »
How about putting a hand on the baby's mouth? I think there's probably more than one way to keep the baby quiet without having to kill him/her.

I dunno.  I've never tried.  ;D  I imagine because the baby is going to be struggling, breathing through its nose and continuing to wail - you can still hear the sounds through someone's palm, try it on yourself - and escape the hand that's keeping it from exercising its lungs to full capacity.  Cutting off the breathing by blocking the nose forces silence as the child is going to be struggling to inhale instead of exhale.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2007, 03:41:59 pm »
Such dreadful and terrible scenarios!  :(

I took the quiz Kerry, but I only answered YES to one of the questions; the trolley incident. I think I could throw the switch changing the course of the trolley to strike the lone man and saving the other five. But I think I would throw the switch instinctively, and I would feel terrible about it later.

It is a part of our human nature to help and protect other people around us. These questions challenge those natural instincts of ours and they made me very uncomfortable. Just trying to imagine such situations sent cold chills up and down my spine.

Thanks for telling us about this quiz Kerry!  :)
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 03:44:55 pm »
Well I can say that personally, if left up to me, we'd get shot by the enemy soliders because no way could I kill that baby no matter what.  I took the whole test too and I am definitely in the minority except on that one trolley question.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2007, 04:02:32 pm »
These questions are really asking us if we feel comfortable deciding who lives and dies.  And my answer to that is, no, I am not comfortable deciding that.  And in every scenario given the outcome is predetermined.  If you don't smother the baby everyone will die.  But in real life you could not be sure of the final outcome.  The baby could stop crying on its own in the nick of time, or even if the baby's cries did reveal the location of those in hidding, the soldiers still may not kill everyone.  How could you be sure that they would?  And the five people standing in front of the runaway trolley could see it at the last minute and get out of the way.

Gary 

True, but could you take the chance considering what is at stake?

Dagi

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 04:41:17 pm »
Quote
These questions are really asking us if we feel comfortable deciding who lives and dies.  And my answer to that is, no, I am not comfortable deciding that.  And in every scenario given the outcome is predetermined.  If you don't smother the baby everyone will die.  But in real life you could not be sure of the final outcome.  The baby could stop crying on its own in the nick of time, or even if the baby's cries did reveal the location of those in hidding, the soldiers still may not kill everyone.  How could you be sure that they would?  And the five people standing in front of the runaway trolley could see it at the last minute and get out of the way.

Gary 

No, that´s the difficut thing. Saying that one would do one or the other thing in this or that scenario is one thing, but in reality you would maybe react completely different. I assumed that the outcome is sure (if the baby goes on crying the soldiers will come in and every one will die). In real life I would maybe not give up hoping the baby might stop crying, and I would of course try everything else. But if I felt really threatened to get killed I might possibly be able to kill someone else instead. Or maybe I might not be able to overcome my mother instinct that keeps me from doing something horrible like that? I think we can´t predict that.

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 05:29:42 pm »


          Well here I am on the outside looking in again...But this story says more about the persons leadership, vs follower mentality to me..   If you would do the killing in order to save the many, you would tend to be a
leader, and feel more responsible for the group... If you would not do it, and allow fate to take over, you would then fall into the follower catagory, and hope someone else would take the job away and take the heat for doing the deed...Not passing judgement on anyone, and hope to have none passed on me...But i would not expect some last second reprieve so yes I could do it..but I would have part of my soul dead, for the rest of my life, because of it.. :'(



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Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 06:23:11 pm »
Don't worry, Janice.  It was only a quiz.  It's very unlikely that you'd ever have to make a choice like that. 

But I'm not sure I agree with you about the leader/follower thing.  Like I said, I can't imagine myself killing the baby.  But I'm not a follower.  I think I've demonstrated that.   ;D  But I'm not a leader either.  I'm an individual.

Gary

That baby question was the WORST of them! God, what a horrible situation! I can't see myself smothering a baby either Gary, but if my life depended on it, I would probably be very thankful to the person who did have the courage.

I can't even bear to think about it.

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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 06:39:53 pm »
As frightened as I would be, if I could not calm the baby, I think I would be more inclined to take the baby and run, hopeing to somehow escape and lead the soliders away from the others.  I really feel it would never cross my mind to kill the baby outright.  But as you say we really don't know what we would do until we are faced with an impossible horrific situation and our actual lives are on the line.  :'(
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 06:57:48 pm »



         So Gary, are you saying that you are an anarchist.   ;D



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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2007, 07:24:46 pm »



         I know what it means, thats why I asked you...Its the same as where the people ask if it wont be
a immoral world without religion telling everyone how to be moral...As if it is only fear that guides people.
I understand...It just doesnt work to well in the real world however.



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Dagi

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 06:24:07 am »
Quote
.Its the same as where the people ask if it wont be a immoral world without religion telling everyone how to be moral...

Oh yeah.  :-\  I heard that stupid argument so often I lost count...

Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 08:26:59 am »

Tragic as this scenario truly is, it should be remembered that for some people this is not just a "scenario." There are those who have actually lived through situations such as this and they've had to make equally difficult decisions in the process. The Holocaust comes to mind immediately. But there are lots of other such situations from more recent years. We are so fortunate to live within affluent, pluralist, egalitarian, democratic societies, where it is unlikely we will ever be confronted with a dilemma such as this, other than in the abstract.

My initial response to this scenario was, "Yep, sure, I'd do it. After all, the baby's dead either way." It wasn't a difficult question to answer for me initially, in the abstract. I'm a gay male who has never had much contact with, nor empathy for babies. Easy-peasy, I thought. I just saved all those lives, mine included!

And then something strange happened in the hours after I'd participated in the exercise. To start with, I couldn't get it out of my mind. Then I started to have empathetic feelings for the baby (a first for me). I could feel the warmth of its body in my hands as I smothered it and could feel the child's heart cease beating as I snuffed out its life. I tried to rationalize my decision/actions. I imagined the baby was female, not male. I imagined that the baby was very ugly or even disfigured. My imagination was obviously in hyperdrive and trying to make me feel better about killing a baby who I rationalized would never grow-up to be desirable or worthwhile (my shallow, mercenary reasoning even shocked myself). All this seemed to be emerging from deep within my subconscious, without "me" giving it any conscious consideration (is this making any sense?).

My initial, cavalier decision came back to bite me big time. It was a decision I initially made with ready ease, thinking it was what was best for the group. What came afterwards was guilt, shame, doubt and self-loathing.

This is too hard for me! I'm off to bed!
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2007, 09:12:34 am »
Tragic as this scenario truly is, it should be remembered that for some people this is not just a "scenario." There are those who have actually lived through situations such as this and they've had to make equally difficult decisions in the process. The Holocaust comes to mind immediately. But there are lots of other such situations from more recent years. We are so fortunate to live within affluent, pluralist, egalitarian, democratic societies, where it is unlikely we will ever be confronted with a dilemma such as this, other than in the abstract.

My initial response to this scenario was, "Yep, sure, I'd do it. After all, the baby's dead either way." It wasn't a difficult question to answer for me initially, in the abstract. I'm a gay male who has never had much contact with, nor empathy for babies. Easy-peasy, I thought. I just saved all those lives, mine included!

And then something strange happened in the hours after I'd participated in the exercise. To start with, I couldn't get it out of my mind. Then I started to have empathetic feelings for the baby (a first for me). I could feel the warmth of its body in my hands as I smothered it and could feel the child's heart cease beating as I snuffed out its life. I tried to rationalize my decision/actions. I imagined the baby was female, not male. I imagined that the baby was very ugly or even disfigured. My imagination was obviously in hyperdrive and trying to make me feel better about killing a baby who I rationalized would never grow-up to be desirable or worthwhile (my shallow, mercenary reasoning even shocked myself). All this seemed to be emerging from deep within my subconscious, without "me" giving it any conscious consideration (is this making any sense?).

My initial, cavalier decision came back to bite me big time. It was a decision I initially made with ready ease, thinking it was what was best for the group. What came afterwards was guilt, shame, doubt and self-loathing.

This is too hard for me! I'm off to bed!

It's not an easy decision to make for anyone.  As was said in earlier posts, people who say they can/should/would/must do one thing, may not be able to do it when the time actually came, but who knows how someone might actually react?  People who say they couldn't do it, might be standing there huddled with their own somewhat older children and with the threat to their own children's lives staring them in the face, parental protection might seize hold of them and they suddenly be able to do it.

Those who absolutely could not do it will have survivor's guilt.  Those who actually had to do the deed will have to live with themselves and - very likely - how others will see them.  Those with survivors guilt could easily transfer their self-loathing to the actual killer and take out all their anger and disgust on them - even though that person saved their lives.

WWII was full of such stories, appallingly enough.  Doesn't even have to be Jewish people, doesn't even have to be babies.  I just saw a documentary on a French woman during DDay.  She talks about the very young German soldiers she had had to quarter in her farmhouse.  She'd gotten to know them, was friendly with them, but when the Americans showed up, they hid.  She had a choice, turn them in - and they would be instantly killed - or say nothing, and if they were found be thought of as a collaborator. 

She turned them in.

They were killed.

You could still see the pain of what she clearly thought was betrayal in her face and it's been over 60 years now... :-\

injest

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 09:25:28 am »
ok. so you live. What kind of life would you have? The thought of killing an innocent to allow myself to live is not a choice I would make....rationalizing that you are saving OTHER people is just that a rationalization. In the end if you are truthful with yourself, that is what you are doing...thinking only of yourself.

given the scenario without being given the options, I would never have thought of smothering a baby....but I have found lately that I am in the minority with my freakishly backwater sense of morality

Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 01:41:09 pm »
For some reason this is making me think about the terrible plane wreck up in the Andes mountains back in the 1970's. I'm sure you all are familiar with this. The survivors of the wreck were forced to eat the dead. Remember that? This is another one of those "could I do it?" scenarios.

I don't think I could. But I suppose one never really knows for certain until they are faced with something like this. It's a chilling thought.

This very same thing happened to the Donner party in the 1800's. I think it happened in Colorado.
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 02:24:23 pm »
         I have read about the story of the infant.  It was an actual thing that happened.  The babies
own mother smothered it.  The baby was crying, and would not hush.  The people in the hiding place
told the mother to try and silence the infant.  She couldnt make it be quiet, so when she heard the soldiers
passing by.  She held the baby to her own breast, very tightly.  and when the crisis had passed, they discovered that she had smothered it to death..It wasnt exactly an accident, but not intentional either. 
A terrible thing to have to face.  However I personally would never do it to save myself.  But I HOPE that I
could have what it took to do so, in order to save 50 people.  Which i think is how many there were, hiding there.  Some of which were children as well.



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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 03:51:59 pm »
Didn't y'all see the final episode of M*A*S*H?

I did. Exactly this scenario, and like you, I immediately thought of it reading Kerry's post.


I would not be able to smother a baby consciously.
In reality, I think it would be far more likely that the scenario would go like Janice described (and like it was shown in M*A*S*H). People taking the risk of smothering the baby by silencing it. I think this is a big difference to smothering the baby deliberately.


Quote
From David:
For some reason this is making me think about the terrible plane wreck up in the Andes mountains back in the 1970's. I'm sure you all are familiar with this. The survivors of the wreck were forced to eat the dead. Remember that? This is another one of those "could I do it?" scenarios.

I would have far less scruples to eat an already dead person in such a desperate situation than actively killing someone like in the other scenarios. Of all given scenarios, this is the least horrible to me and I'm pretty sure I would eat.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2007, 04:22:03 pm »
Didn't y'all see the final episode of M*A*S*H?


I was just about to mention that, scott!


and to be honest, I'm not sure if I'd be able to kill the baby.


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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2007, 06:54:07 pm »


          No one could ever be sure of doing it.  I think it would totally be a case by case thing.

       I probably am coming off as a non feeling person after my answers to all these questions.  If that
       Is so, I am sad about it.  I am just a pragmatist.  As Gary said he is an anarchist, and doesnt want to
       do anything of this nature..I am a pragmatist, and want to do the right thing , in order to help
       the greatest  amount of people, at a given time.  I personally would hate to do it. 
       
           Maybe. I have an anarchist attitude about survival.  And about how others perceive me.  I
        have a very strong moral code.  but it is my own........



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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2007, 07:03:39 pm »
ok. so you live. What kind of life would you have? The thought of killing an innocent to allow myself to live is not a choice I would make....rationalizing that you are saving OTHER people is just that a rationalization. In the end if you are truthful with yourself, that is what you are doing...thinking only of yourself.

given the scenario without being given the options, I would never have thought of smothering a baby....but I have found lately that I am in the minority with my freakishly backwater sense of morality

So if you were standing there with your own children, you wouldn't do it for them?  Or maybe you have children hidden elsewhere.  Would you not smother this baby, knowing that you would be killed with the others in the group and your children would be orphaned and have to figure out how to survive on their own?

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2007, 07:07:54 pm »
For some reason this is making me think about the terrible plane wreck up in the Andes mountains back in the 1970's. I'm sure you all are familiar with this. The survivors of the wreck were forced to eat the dead. Remember that? This is another one of those "could I do it?" scenarios.

I don't think I could. But I suppose one never really knows for certain until they are faced with something like this. It's a chilling thought.

This very same thing happened to the Donner party in the 1800's. I think it happened in Colorado.

Eating dead people is a heckuva lot easier decision to make than smothering a live baby or giving up others to be killed in your stead.

Cannibalism wouldn't be a walk in the park decision-wise, but the people who are dead won't mind missing a couple of parts. 

Bon apetit.  :P

Actually in the Andes Mountain Crash event, I believe one woman - the mother of someone - refused to eat dead people and died from weakness/injury later.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2007, 07:13:31 pm »
I'm not sure what I would do. Once I accidentally ran over a turtle and, though I squished its shell, it wasn't dead. The humane thing to do would have been to run over it again. But I couldn't bring myself to do it. And that was just a turtle! And it was for its own good! My friend had to take the wheel.

So while I think there's a good argument to be made for smothering the baby -- there may be plenty of other children in the group, for instance -- I'm not sure I could do it myself. BTW, though, I don't agree that this is a purely selfish act. I know this because I would NOT smother the baby if were JUST ME and the baby, thereby saving only my own life (even if the baby were not mine).

I just read an essay about a wealthy entrepreneur who gave away almost all of his money -- almost $43 million -- to the poor, wound up living in a modest house, etc. He was asked if he'd kill his own child in order to save a group of children. He said sure, in fact, he'd even kill his own child in order to save two other children. That kind of mindset is very hard to fathom.

And finally, ever since I had babies and found how difficult it is to quiet them, I've often wondered how refugees trying to escape during war have handled this -- it has undoubtedly happened many, many times. I guess often, when possible, they've drugged the babies. That seems like the best solution. (To be honest, there were days when my kids were infants when I wished I had some of those drugs to use myself!  ;D)


Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2007, 07:26:49 pm »
So while I think there's a good argument to be made for smothering the baby -- there may be plenty of other children in the group, for instance -- I'm not sure I could do it myself. BTW, though, I don't agree that this is a purely selfish act. I know this because I would NOT smother the baby if were JUST ME and the baby, thereby saving only my own life (even if the baby were not mine).

So it doesn't matter that the baby is dead either way?  Except if you don't smother it - you're dead too.  What good came out of that situation?  How is not smothering the baby any better?



Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2007, 07:57:01 pm »
Eating dead people is a heckuva lot easier decision to make than smothering a live baby or giving up others to be killed in your stead.


Hi Delalluvia!!

I don't think people understand why I mentioned this. I wasn't trying to make comparisons. And I wasn't trying to suggest it was a more difficult situation than killing a baby. It is another one of those morality questions.

Here's another one: You all are familiar with the movie Beloved, aren't you? In case everyone didn't know it, there is also book too; not just the movie. Anyway, Sethe is a slave woman who escaped from her northern Kentucky tobacco and indigo plantation. It was just a a few short miles up to the Ohio river and then across to freedom in Cincinnati Ohio. She actually makes the trip back and forth across the river several times, bringing her small children (toddlers and infants) with her. After settling in Cincinnati, the posses and regulators find out where she is, and they are sent to fetch her. Sethe takes all four of her children into the shed out back and tries to kill them. She figures the children are better off dead, rather than go back into slavery in Kentucky with Schoolteacher, the overseer who is an extremely evil man. Beloved is a very bone chilling and blood curdling story.

Did she make the right decision? Life on the Sweet Home plantation was extremely hard and cruel for the slaves. They were frequently whipped, chained, families broke up and sold off to other plantations, children and young mothers raped and beaten, feet and hands cut off, etc... 

See? And once again I'm not trying to compare anything. But this is another morality question. There are many of them. But the ones Kerry told us about are the most chilling, although the story of Sethe is probably a very close second. The only reason I say this is because it is Sethe killing the children. One of us isn't being asked to do it.

By the way, the story of Sethe is a true story. It really happened. Except Hollywood took the true story of Sethe, and turned it into a ghost story. In the movie, one of the children returns from the dead to haunt her.


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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2007, 08:17:55 pm »
For some reason this is making me think about the terrible plane wreck up in the Andes mountains back in the 1970's. I'm sure you all are familiar with this. The survivors of the wreck were forced to eat the dead. Remember that? This is another one of those "could I do it?" scenarios.

I don't think I could. But I suppose one never really knows for certain until they are faced with something like this. It's a chilling thought.

This very same thing happened to the Donner party in the 1800's. I think it happened in Colorado.

Donner Pass in California, east side of the Sierra Nevada mountains.  They were actually only about 100 miles from their destination in Sacramento but the snows set in and they were trapped.

From Wikipedia

When they reached the Sierra Nevada at the end of October, a snowstorm blocked their way over what is now known as Donner Pass. Demoralized and low on supplies, about two thirds of the emigrants camped at a lake (now called Donner Lake), while the Donner families and a few others camped about six miles (ten kilometers) away, at Alder Creek.[2]

The emigrants slaughtered their oxen, but there was not enough meat to feed so many for long. In mid-December, fifteen of the trapped emigrants, later known as the Forlorn Hope, set out on crudely fashioned snowshoes for Sutter's Fort, about 100 miles (160 kilometers) away, to seek help. This group consisted of 10 men and five women. When one man gave out and had to be left behind, the others continued, but soon became lost and ran out of food. Caught without shelter in a raging blizzard, four of the party died. The survivors resorted to cannibalism, then continued on their journey; three more died and were also cannibalized. Close to death, the seven surviving snowshoers--two men and all five of the women--finally reached safety on the western side of the mountains on January 18, 1847.[2]

 
Donner Pass in the 1870s.Californians rallied to save the Donner Party and equipped a total of four rescue parties, or "reliefs." When the First Relief arrived, 14 emigrants had died at the camps and the rest were extremely weak. Most had been surviving on boiled ox hide, but there had been no cannibalism. The First Relief set out with 21 refugees on February 22.

When the Second Relief arrived a week later, they found that some of the 31 emigrants left behind at the camps had begun to eat the dead. The Second Relief took 17 emigrants with them, the Third Relief four. By the time the Fourth Relief had reached the camp, only one man was alive. The last member of the Donner Party arrived at Sutter's Fort on April 29.[2]

Of the original 87 pioneers, 39 died and 48 survived.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2007, 08:33:59 pm »
I'm familiar with the story of Beloved, and I personally think that Sethe made the right decision, for her, given the situation.  
Gary


Beloved is an extremely scary and deeply disturbing movie. It is a very deep and intricate story and beautifully made. Oprah Winfrey and Danny Glover star in it. This is not a movie to watch if you are looking to get a quick scare though. Yes, it does have some frightening ghost scenes, but the movie challenges our sense of morality. I've watched Beloved several times, and each time I watch it, I'm never quite sure if I fault Sethe for attempting to kill her four children (and successfully killing one) or sympathizing with her. Suddenly the movie makes me uncomfortable with myself, and I think this is probably the scariest part.  :-\


EDIT: Oops! I just re-read your post Gary and I noticed you said you ARE familiar with the story. I misread it the first time. Sorry about that.



« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 11:53:50 pm by David »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2007, 10:56:00 pm »
No, I never saw Beloved.

But based on the plotline you've said, I, also, would not presume to judge Sethe.  She knew what it would be like to be a slave.  It's not like she's some nut killing her kids to save them from Satan/living unChristian/Muslim lives.  She's trying to save them from living a very real hell on earth.  Her story is a tragic one repeated umpteen times throughout history.  I know that many people conquered all over Europe and Asia by name-your-favorite-ancient-empire also chose to not only kill their children, but their wives and themselves rather than be taken into bondage.

http://artchive.com/artchive/R/roman/roman_gaul_suicide.jpg.html

Heck what is the story of Masada but mass murder/suicide for that very reason?

The baby situation though seems more like a Sophie's Choice kind of thing.

I gave some more thought to Jess's question about 'what kind of life would you have if you did choose to smother a baby to save your/others lives?'

I think the answer would be - a life that you would try your very best to make worthwhile.

I kept thinking of the movie Saving Private Ryan


SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SEEN IT!!!













What was that but a group of men - unwillingly - risking their lives and losing them so that one -ONE- particular man could go home and live his life?  Ryan promised himself that he would go on to live the very best life he could so those men wouldn't have died in vain.

It wasn't pleasant at times for him I'm sure.  What a burden.  But a lot of good came from it as well.  At the end, he grieved, but I'm sure he wasn't in the long run, sorry.

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2007, 11:08:20 pm »



            Unholy dilennas are unholy...and that is what makes them dilemmas.  They are problems that
no human should ever have to make.  It is not for us to judge a person when faced with this kind of
horrible choice.  They do what they feel they must.  Just as anyone faced with this kind of a problem.  i
should never jugde anyone, specially when having to do it under an immediate threat of death...
            We can never really know what to do until the time comes.



     Beautiful mind

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2007, 01:26:15 am »
Beloved may be based originally on some true historical story, but the Toni Morrison novel from which it was adapted is fictional. And the tragedy is that, in the story, Sethe DOES escape from slavery not long after killing her baby, Beloved. Then she has another daughter, I think (I'm going  from 15-year-old memory). So when Beloved comes back to haunt them, she seems to kind of metaphorically represent Sethe's conscience, or perhaps on a larger scale, the legacy of slavery.

As for the Donners, I read a New Yorker article not long ago indicating that new research suggests they actually didn't eat people.

So it doesn't matter that the baby is dead either way?  Except if you don't smother it - you're dead too.  What good came out of that situation?  How is not smothering the baby any better?

Yeah, you're right. I guess what I was disagreeing with was someone's earlier comment that killing the baby was a purely selfish decision, whereas I think it really would depend on whether I was saving just my own life or the life of a group. Take the baby out of the equation, and the group would be more important than my single life. But if the baby's absolutely going to die either way, it becomes a different kind of dilemma.

Those choices between a single life, however important, over the lives of numerous people -- those are tough decisions.

Unfortunately, they're kind of related to the torture issue. Do you, ala Jack Bauer, torture someone who knows where the bomb is that's set to blow up Los Angeles, killing millions? Luckily, research seems to suggest that torture is not effective in any case.





Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2007, 05:46:33 am »
Beloved may be based originally on some true historical story, but the Toni Morrison novel from which it was adapted is fictional. And the tragedy is that, in the story, Sethe DOES escape from slavery not long after killing her baby, Beloved. Then she has another daughter, I think (I'm going  from 15-year-old memory). So when Beloved comes back to haunt them, she seems to kind of metaphorically represent Sethe's conscience, or perhaps on a larger scale, the legacy of slavery.



I beg to differ, Katherine. I remember Oprah talking about this while she was promoting the movie Beloved. She said it really happened. Now, perhaps this was some sort of cheap Hollywood gimmick. I always understood it to be true and factual. But I remember Oprah telling us the events did not actually occur in the Covington, Kentucky area, but rather about 10 miles further south in Independence, KY, which must have been a real feat for Sethe, running back and forth at that great of a distance. Back then, 10 miles was a long distance, especially on foot.

I think the most important thing for all of us to remember is the movie and the message. It is a lesson in morality, and I think most of us agree that Sethe was probably without fault in trying to protect her children from slavery using the only means available in order to do so.  :'(
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Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2007, 08:58:12 am »
I think the most important thing for all of us to remember is the movie and the message. It is a lesson in morality, and I think most of us agree that Sethe was probably without fault in trying to protect her children from slavery using the only means available in order to do so.  :'(

"Beloved" sounds like a very poignant, inspirational story.  I'll be looking out for it when next I'm hiring a movie. Thank you for telling us about it, David.  :)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2007, 09:23:15 am »
I beg to differ, Katherine. I remember Oprah talking about this while she was promoting the movie Beloved. She said it really happened.

Well, that's what I meant when I said it might have been based on a true historical story, but that the book "Beloved," Toni Morrison's Pulitzer-prize-winning novel, is fictional. I looked it up on the internet and found this, from a books and writers site:

Quote
Beloved was inspired by the true story of a black American slave woman, Margaret Garner. She escaped with her husband Robert from a Kentucky plantation, and sought refuge in Ohio. When the slave masters overcame them, she killed her baby, in order to save the child from the slavery she had managed to escape. Morrison later told that "I thought at first it couldn't be written, but I was annoyed and worried that such a story was inaccessible to art." The protagonist, Sethe, tries to kill her children but is successful only in murdering the unnamed infant, "Beloved." The name is written on the child's tombstone, Sethe did not have enough money to pay for the text ''Dearly Beloved.'' Sethe's house, where she lives with her teenage daughter, Denver, is haunted by the dead baby daughter. "Who would have thought that a little old baby could harbor so much rage?" Sethe thinks.

In other words, as you said, there really was a woman who did that. But many or most of the details of Morrison's novel came out of her own imagination.

More fun facts:

Quote
Morrison later used Margaret Garner's life story again in an opera, "Margaret Garner," with music by Richard Danielpour. In May 2006, The New York Times Book Review named Beloved the best American novel published in the previous twenty five years.


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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2007, 11:37:58 am »
On the subject of cannibalism: I think that cannibalism, in and of itself, is thoroughly a moral non-issue. It is in and of itself neither good nor bad. I don't see any intrinsic horror in either the idea or the act of a human being consuming the flesh of another.

Remember the 1973 science-fiction film Soylent Green, starring Charlton Heston? The great horrific revelation at the end was that the staple food of the desperately overpopulated, polluted future, Soylent Green, was produced from the bodies of deceased humanity. I never saw any reason to be disturbed by this, as long as those who had died had not met their ends unwillingly. Also, the consumers of Soylent Green should have been informed of the product's origins--transparency in commerce, politics, and interpersonal relations is a great ideal of mine.

Many of the horror stories involving cannibalism, whether real or imagined, revolve around people being murdered and then having their flesh consumed, with the killing sometimes being motivated by the desire for the flesh itself, or the flesh being consumed as a corollary/side effect of the killing. Murder is very unethical, and merits the utmost serious attention from any society claiming to be civilized. I find murder horrific, and have been horrified by the cannibalistic elements that are involved in some murder cases, but this has been because of the murderous impulses behind the act, not because of any intrinsic horror in the cannibalistic act itself.

There are nuances and degrees to this issue, as with most everything. I am certainly against corpses being desecrated for acquisition of their flesh, without the approval of the deceased and/or their remaining loved ones. I would be against anyone being forced to consume human flesh, or being deceived into eating human flesh, without realizing what they were doing. Finally, it is worth remembering that Christian communion is at the very least a kind of symbolic ritual cannibalism--if one follows orthodox doctrine, with belief in the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ, it becomes a literal act of cannibalism. And I see absolutely nothing repugnant in this.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2007, 11:46:46 am »
I was going to say I totally agreed with you, Scott, until I got to your last sentence. I don't think eating flesh (in the absence of murder) is inherently immoral. But I do find it repugnant. I would guess that, to some extent, an abhorrence for eating human flesh is hardwired into us.

Or were you saying only that you don't find the Christian communion ritual repugnant? I guess I could agree with that, partly because I don't take it literally. But -- and I hope those of you who are Christians will forgive me for saying this -- I do find it a little weird.





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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2007, 12:25:38 pm »
I was going to say I totally agreed with you, Scott, until I got to your last sentence. I don't think eating flesh (in the absence of murder) is inherently immoral. But I do find it repugnant. I would guess that, to some extent, an abhorrence for eating human flesh is hardwired into us.

Or were you saying only that you don't find the Christian communion ritual repugnant? I guess I could agree with that, partly because I don't take it literally. But -- and I hope those of you who are Christians will forgive me for saying this -- I do find it a little weird.
I meant to imply that I don't find the ritual of communion repugnant, either approached symbolically or taken literally from the standpoint of transubstantiation. I have taken communion myself at various times (in situations where I thought it would be awkward to refuse it), though I do not profess to be a Christian.

I have no desire to consume human flesh myself, but upon reflection I really don't see anything repugnant in another doing so (again, in and of itself). So I suppose I find it neither immoral nor repugnant, at least as long as it is another who is doing so.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2007, 12:40:59 pm »
OK, thanks for clarifying, Scott.

I meant to imply that I don't find the ritual of communion repugnant, either approached symbolically or taken literally from the standpoint of transubstantiation. I have taken communion myself at various times (in situations where I thought it would be awkward to refuse it), though I do not profess to be a Christian.

Is it possible to literally believe in transubstantiation when one is not a Christian? I would have no problem taking communion, either, in the situations you refer to (that is, if it would be more awkward to refuse it than to, as a non-Christian, take it). But I can't see myself believing I'm literally consuming the literal flesh and blood of someone I don't consider a divinity.

If I did take it literally, I would find it repugnant, as I find all human-flesh-eating repugnant, at least according to one interpretation of the definition. For example, here is repugnant defined by The Free Dictionary:

Quote
Arousing disgust or aversion; offensive or repulsive: morally repugnant behavior.

Eating human flesh arouses digust, aversion and repulsion in me. Like you, though, I don't find it immoral, so I don't find it inherently offensive (at least, not under the right circumstances -- i.e., not preceded by murder, not served unknowingly, not in a fancy restaurant), when others do it.

How did we get on this?  ::) Shouldn't we go back to killing babies?


Offline opinionista

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2007, 01:32:30 pm »
I beg to differ, Katherine. I remember Oprah talking about this while she was promoting the movie Beloved. She said it really happened. Now, perhaps this was some sort of cheap Hollywood gimmick. I always understood it to be true and factual.

Sorry to go OT here. Actually, Katherine is right. Beloved is fictional. I believe Toni Morrison herself said it. It is loosely based on Margaret Garner's story. In fact, this isn't something that happened just to Margaret Garner. Many enslaved women killed their kids, especially their daughters to protect them not just from slavery but also from being raped by their masters. It is a sad part of slave history in the US and other countries. At least in Puerto Rico many slave women were raped and forced into concubinage, and many killed their daughters to prevent them from having the same fate. 

We'll back to topic.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2007, 02:43:19 pm »
On the one hand you have the Europeans who think they're so high and mighty, and then you have the Native Americans who, after learning about this cornerstone of Christianity, think those nasty white people are cannibals.

Yeah, I was going to say something like that earlier. Forget what we know about Christianity -- if we heard that, say, some tribal people in Africa or the Amazon follow a religion in which they believe that a guy who lived 2,000 years ago was the son of God, and that they perform a ritual in which they pretend to drink his blood and eat his flesh, but actually consider themselves to be doing so due to a miraculous transformation, we'd probably consider it borderline barbaric, at best. We'd rush right over there to convert those people to whatever our religion would be!  :laugh:





Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2007, 07:48:58 pm »

I feel several issues should be raised re the subject of transubstantiation in the Catholic Mass.

Catholics believe that only an anointed priest (as in, "You are a priest forever, according to the Order of Melchizadeck") can perform transubstantiation. Ergo, before one can accept RC communion, one must believe in the concept of the Melchizadeckian priesthood.

Catholics believe that when the priest speaks the words of transubstantiation, the hosts and the wine literally turn into the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe that one must be in a "state of grace," before one can take communion; i.e., take the physical body of Christ into your mouth and consume it. Catholic dogma dictates that the way to gain this "state of grace" is by undergoing the sacrament of forgiveness, otherwise known as attending confession.

One must be a baptised and confirmed Catholic in order to participate in the sacraments of the Church; ergo, one must be a Catholic before one can (i) obtain absolution in confession and (ii) take communion.

Before one takes communion at RC Mass, the priest holds forth the host before the communicant and says the words, "The Body of Christ," to which the communicant responds, "Amen." By responding, "Amen," one is proclaiming that one does, in fact, believe that what they are about to consume is the actual flesh of Christ.

If one has not fulfilled all or any of the requirements leading up to the taking of communion at Mass, it is my personal opinion that it is not appropriate to do so. And it all comes down to those four little words, "The Body of Christ." If you cannot honestly respond, "Amen," in accordance with Catholic doctrine, it is not appropriate for you to be responding, "Amen."

This is why I no longer attend Mass. 
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2007, 08:23:25 pm »
A relative of mine fits all that RC criteria.  When I brought up the issue of transubstantiation and how kinda gross that sounded, she merely replied, "But I poop Him out again."  ;D

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2007, 08:43:11 pm »
If one has not fulfilled all or any of the requirements leading up to the taking of communion at Mass, it is my personal opinion that it is not appropriate to do so.

I kind of suspected that was the case.

she merely replied, "But I poop Him out again."  ;D

I'm afraid even to laugh at that!  :o  :-X


Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2007, 08:51:56 pm »
A relative of mine fits all that RC criteria.  When I brought up the issue of transubstantiation and how kinda gross that sounded, she merely replied, "But I poop Him out again."  ;D

Sorta puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?  :-\

I remember in pre-Vatican II days, what a lot of fuss there was if the priest dropped the host whilst giving communion. In those days, the host was placed directly onto the outstretched tongue of the communicant by the priest. If the priest dropped the host en route (I guess that should be "Host"), a special little ornate silver dustpan and broom was brought out and the priest (only a priest could do it) would pick up the host and then ceremoniously brush the area where the host had fallen, just incase particles of the Sacred Personage had fallen off, when it (He?!) hit the floor. The priest then had to consume (yes, consume!) the contents of the dustpan! Fortunately, the good ladies of the parish always kept the church squeaky clean, so there was no dust in the dustpan - only bodyparts!  ;)   :laugh:
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2007, 08:55:23 pm »
Sorta puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?

I remember in pre-Vatican II days, what a lot of fuss there was if the priest dropped the host whilst giving communion. In those days, the host was placed directly onto the outstretched tongue of the communicant by the priest. If the priest dropped the host en route (I guess that should be "Host"), a special little ornate silver dustpan and broom was brought out and the priest (only a priest could do it) would pick up the host and then ceremoniously brush the area where the host had fallen, just incase particles of the Sacred Personage had fallen off, when it (He?!) hit the floor. The priest then had to consume (yes, consume!) the contents of the dustpan! Fortunately, the good ladies of the parish always kept the church squeaky clean, so there was no dust in the dustpan - only bodyparts!  ;)   :laugh:

Well, if they're going to believe that bread/wafer magically turns into meat inside their bodies, they have to accept what happens to meat in our digestive system.  There's kinda no escaping it.

Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2007, 08:55:36 pm »
Sorta puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?  :-\

I remember in pre-Vatican II days, what a lot of fuss there was if the priest dropped the host whilst giving communion. In those days, the host was placed directly onto the outstretched tongue of the communicant by the priest. If the priest dropped the host en route (I guess that should be "Host"), a special little ornate silver dustpan and broom was brought out and the priest (only a priest could do it) would pick up the host and then ceremoniously brush the area where the host had fallen, just incase particles of the Sacred Personage had fallen off, when it (He?!) hit the floor. The priest then had to consume (yes, consume!) the contents of the dustpan! Fortunately, the good ladies of the parish always kept the church squeaky clean, so there was no dust in the dustpan - only bodyparts!  ;)   :laugh:

Oops, that should be Bodyparts!  ;)

(God'll get me for that!)  ::)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2007, 09:58:40 pm »
Sorta puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?  :-\

I remember in pre-Vatican II days, what a lot of fuss there was if the priest dropped the host whilst giving communion. In those days, the host was placed directly onto the outstretched tongue of the communicant by the priest. If the priest dropped the host en route (I guess that should be "Host"), a special little ornate silver dustpan and broom was brought out and the priest (only a priest could do it) would pick up the host and then ceremoniously brush the area where the host had fallen, just incase particles of the Sacred Personage had fallen off, when it (He?!) hit the floor. The priest then had to consume (yes, consume!) the contents of the dustpan! Fortunately, the good ladies of the parish always kept the church squeaky clean, so there was no dust in the dustpan - only bodyparts!  ;)   :laugh:

I remember discussing this in Catholic grade school during my altar boy classes (yes, we had to take classes before we became altar boys). The question came up on what the priest should do if for some reason the communion recipient vomited up the host when giving Communion outside the church building. The answer to this question was that a good and pious priest would consume the host and vomit, since the vomit still contained the Body and Blood of Christ. I think I remember them telling us the transubstantiation lasted around 20 to 30 minutes after the host was consumed. Once digested it changed back to regular bread. Isn't that disgusting? But at our church we had a vessel in the sacristy (called a sacrarium. It looked like a sink. I THINK that was the name. Help me with this Kerry, if you know the answer) where any remnants of the host and wine could be deposited in a respectful and dignified manner.



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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2007, 10:31:36 pm »
The answer to this question was that a good and pious priest would consume the host and vomit, since the vomit still contained the Body and Blood of Christ. I think I remember them telling us the transubstantiation lasted around 20 to 30 minutes after the host was consumed.

Wow. A friend once told me she was on an airplane when passenger vomited all over the place. When the flight attendant showed up, she said, "I can't handle this!" flung up her hands and walked away.

That would be me, as the priest in this scenario. That would be the point at which I'd rip off my collar, say "I can't handle this!" and walk away, giving up my vows forever.




Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2007, 10:38:46 pm »
I remember discussing this in Catholic grade school during my altar boy classes (yes, we had to take classes before we became altar boys). The question came up on what the priest should do if for some reason the communion recipient vomited up the host when giving Communion outside the church building. The answer to this question was that a good and pious priest would consume the host and vomit, since the vomit still contained the Body and Blood of Christ. I think I remember them telling us the transubstantiation lasted around 20 to 30 minutes after the host was consumed. Once digested it changed back to regular bread. Isn't that disgusting? But at our church we had a vessel in the sacristy (called a sacrarium. It looked like a sink. I THINK that was the name. Help me with this Kerry, if you know the answer) where any remnants of the host and wine could be deposited in a respectful and dignified manner.

I do remember there being a sink in the sacristy, David, but I do not remember a specifically designated, separate sink, exclusively for the purpose you describe. But that could just be my memory failing me haha. I seem to remember that (in Australia, anyway) the cleaning-up was done by the priest immediately after he returned to the altar, after the communion was distributed. At that time, he would empty into the chalice any rogue crumbs left over from the little tray that was placed under the chins of the communicants. This wine dregs and wafer crumbs mix was then consumed by the priest. He would then swill water around in the chalice and drink this water/wine mix, after which he would dry the chalice with a little linen cloth. Theoretically, because there was still an outside possibility that there could still be some remaining Divine Blood adhering to this little cloth, all such altar linen was carefully packaged and sent off to the local convent, to be laundered by the good nuns. From what I remember, that's how it was done in Oz.  :D
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2007, 10:40:07 pm »
Wow. A friend once told me she was on an airplane when a passenger vomited all over the place. When the flight attendant showed up, she said, "I can't handle this!" flung up her hands and walked away.

That would be me, as the priest in this scenario. That would be the point at which I'd rip off my collar, say "I can't handle this!" and walk away, giving up my vows forever.

I can't handle it either.  I always see parents handling their kids' yak, so I thought when I got older I would be able to handle it.  Once, my little niece was bouncing up and down in the living room and then suddenly hurled all over herself.  Her mother was in the kitchen, hands full and she asked me to go 'clean her up'.

As soon as I got close enough to smell it, my own gorge rose and I turned right around and went to the kitchen and took over for my sister so she could do it.  Even as a parent I wouldn't be able to handle it.  Ick!   :P

Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2007, 10:50:13 pm »
I do remember there being a sink in the sacristy, David, but I do not remember a specifically designated, separate sink, exclusively for the purpose you describe. But that could just be my memory failing me haha. I seem to remember that (in Australia, anyway) the cleaning-up was done by the priest immediately after he returned to the altar, after the communion was distributed. At that time, he would empty into the chalice any rogue crumbs left over from the little tray that was placed under the chins of the communicants. This wine dregs and wafer crumbs mix was then consumed by the priest. He would then swill water around in the chalice and drink this water/wine mix, after which he would dry the chalice with a little linen cloth. Theoretically, because there was still an outside possibility that there could still be some remaining Divine Blood adhering to this little cloth, all such altar linen was carefully packaged and sent off to the local convent, to be laundered by the good nuns. From what I remember, that's how it was done in Oz.  :D

Yes, here in the US the priest will do this too Kerry. It's exactly as you described. I was talking about other situations such as if someone vomited the host up during Mass. The mess would be cleaned (I think with the Purificator) and then carefully rinsed in the sacrarium. And if the person receiving Holy Communion outside of the church building happened to vomit the host, such as when the priest was performing the Sacrament of the Sick, I remember being told the priest should consume the sickness, since this would be the only way to dispose of it in a respectable manner.  :P Yuck!!

The sacrarium would also be used for any hosts or crumbs that fell to the floor or spilled consecrated wine.


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2007, 11:34:34 pm »
As soon as I got close enough to smell it, my own gorge rose and I turned right around and went to the kitchen and took over for my sister so she could do it.  Even as a parent I wouldn't be able to handle it.  Ick!   :P

Even as a parent, I found my kids' puke gross. What I did get perfectly used to, though, was poop. Changing one's own child's diapers is not necessarily fun, but it's not repugnant. I guess maybe that explains dog owners, whose ability to pick up dog poop I've had a hard time understanding. Apparently if you love somebody enough ...

What unexpected twists and turns this thread has taken!  ::) It's like one of those gross-out quizzes. Would you rather:

1) Kill a baby
2) Eat human flesh
3) Deal with (or consume!) someone else's puke
4) Change a poopy diaper

Hmmm ...



Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2007, 01:35:10 am »
Even as a parent, I found my kids' puke gross. What I did get perfectly used to, though, was poop. Changing one's own child's diapers is not necessarily fun, but it's not repugnant. I guess maybe that explains dog owners, whose ability to pick up dog poop I've had a hard time understanding. Apparently if you love somebody enough ...

What unexpected twists and turns this thread has taken!  ::) It's like one of those gross-out quizzes. Would you rather:

1) Kill a baby
2) Eat human flesh
3) Deal with (or consume!) someone else's puke
4) Change a poopy diaper

Hmmm ...




:laugh: :laugh:

I wonder what we will discuss next in here Katherine.

It's all Kerry's fault. He started this thread! ;) ;)
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2007, 03:42:19 am »
That would be me, as the priest in this scenario. That would be the point at which I'd rip off my collar, say "I can't handle this!" and walk away, giving up my vows forever.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



Quote
From Della:
As soon as I got close enough to smell it, my own gorge rose and I turned right around and went to the kitchen and took over for my sister so she could do it.  Even as a parent I wouldn't be able to handle it.  Ick!   

There may come situations in life where you have to handle things you thought you couldn't. Just figure it's your child and you're alone with him/her in the middle of the night.

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2007, 03:54:05 am »
I remember discussing this in Catholic grade school during my altar boy classes (yes, we had to take classes before we became altar boys). The question came up on what the priest should do if for some reason the communion recipient vomited up the host when giving Communion outside the church building. The answer to this question was that a good and pious priest would consume the host and vomit, since the vomit still contained the Body and Blood of Christ. I think I remember them telling us the transubstantiation lasted around 20 to 30 minutes after the host was consumed. Once digested it changed back to regular bread. Isn't that disgusting? But at our church we had a vessel in the sacristy (called a sacrarium. It looked like a sink. I THINK that was the name. Help me with this Kerry, if you know the answer) where any remnants of the host and wine could be deposited in a respectful and dignified manner.


Hey David and Kerry that extra little "sink" in the Sacistry is callled a Pisena.  It has a long pipe that goes deep into the ground because consecrated wine and crumbs, i.e. the body&blood of Christ, cannot be poured into the sewer.  It must be consumed or disposed of naturally on the ground.  If consecrated bread and wine are poured into the Pisena then it must be flushed twice with a pitcher of holy water.   Amazing the things you pick up in life  ;) 
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2007, 03:58:30 am »
Hey David and Kerry that extra little "sink" in the Sacistry is callled a Pisena.  It has a long pipe that goes deep into the ground because consecrated wine and crumbs, i.e. the body&blood of Christ, cannot be poured into the sewer.  It must be consumed or disposed of naturally on the ground.  If consecrated bread and wine are poured into the Pisena then it must be flushed twice with a pitcher of holy water.   Amazing the things you pick up in life  ;) 

Thank you Dottie!! I stand corrected.  :D

Pisena isn't ringing a bell with me though, but this doesn't surprise me at all. Half of the time I cannot even remember my own eye color.  :laugh:

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Offline underdown

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2007, 07:00:55 am »

A good friend of mine a while ago asked me to her small catholic church in the mountains.
It was my first ever mass attendance, so I didn't have much of a clue about the protocol,
although she was aware that I knew the ropes in a protestant church, so couldn't be an embarrassment.
Uh uh. She made me follow and take the sacraments.
I didn't open my mouth (the priest's fingers had been in all the other mouths), so he put a wafer in my hand.
Being very polite, I held onto it until after the wine so as not to accidentally drop it into the cup.
Then I was dug in the ribs and whispered to about swallowing the wafer, and proper etiquette.
That was when I dropped the wafer on the floor, bent down and picked it up, being whispered to, again,
something about hell-fire and swallowing the damm thing.
So, I dutifully swallowed. Then I looked at the front pew, and a little old lady staring at me with the sort
of look one might give a gate-crashing mufti.

Funny how one can try to please, and still offend the upright and moral.
I guess, to some people, the moral thing is more important.
Which ties in with the smothering of the baby.

They didn't offer me a cup of tea. And I was never invited again.

Rob

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2007, 07:35:34 am »
After hearing about priests eating someone else's vomit -- even eating your own would be outragous in my book -- somehow killing babies doesn't seem all that repulsive after all.   :-\

Oh, and just to clear things up about the communion thing.  It's true that Catholics do not want you to take communion out of politeness.  But, as I understand it, Anglicans and Episcopalians don't mind.  I'm also pretty sure that they view the Eucharist as symboic and not litteral.  I went to an Episcopal church for a few months when I was in college, and those people were pretty wishy-washy about their principals.  It was like Catholicism with a wink and a nod.  I just can't imagine them taking a communion waffer that seriously.  I was told flat out that I didn't have to profess to anything before taking communion.  But the church I went to was attended mostly by a bunch of college profs and their families, so maybe this was not a typical setup. 

I was very young when I tried out that church.  But now that I'm a little older, and my knees are gone, and I have hernias, and I'm balance impaired, I'm not sure I could stand the athletic rigors of an Episcopal service.  You have to stand up at certain parts, then kneel, then set, then stand up again.  It was just up and down, up and down the whole time.  Since I come from a Baptist background where you pretty much sit there and listen, I was a bit in awe.  I didn't know if I was in church, or if I had somehow stumbled into an aerobics class.  If I went now I'd have to go home and nap after.

Another part of the service I found strange was when everybody started shaking hands and wishing one another peace.  As I said, these were mostly college profs and their families, and not even the English were more buttoned down and resevered than these people.  There was something so forced and artifical about it, and I would sometimes want to giggle. Imagine Nancy Reagan turning to you with that big, fake smile on her face, offering you her hand, and saying peace, like she was some kind of hippie.

The sermons were complete snoozefests.  The only one that I remember was about a boy walking by a fruit vender every day and steeling apples as he passed.  As far as I can tell the priest was saying that it was wrong of the boy to tempt himself, and that he should have avoided the vender if he couldn't stop himself from steeling the apples as he went by.  I just sat there and thought, wow!, so this is what passes for a moral dilemma around here.

The priest was kind of cute, so I found the act of getting down on my knees in front of him, and having him feed me kind of erotic.  I know that's not an appropriate response, but what can I say?  I'm kind of pervy I guess.  I didn't much like drinking out of the same cup as everybody else though.  That seemed kind of unsanitary.

Gary               

Gary you are cracking me up.  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2007, 08:03:07 am »
Gary you are cracking me up.  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

What Gary said about the unsanitary practices.  I can't believe they still do the one cup thing in this day and age.  Yeah, they wipe the rim of the cup, but yeech.  My dad was Catholic, so every so often we went to Mass.  I enjoyed the music and the getting up and kneeling down, the incense and all the ritual aspects, but other than that the sermons were no more exciting or interesting than a Protestant Church's.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2007, 08:18:43 am »
 It was like Catholicism with a wink and a nod.  

I like this description.
About 1/3 of all inhabitants in Germany belong to the roman-catholic church (another 1/3 is protestant). But I have never met anybody (at least not knowingly) who truly believes in the transubstantiation, meaning who truly believes the wafer will magically be transformed into meat.
Somehow I doubt that anybody believes it.

Back to Gary's Catholicism with a wink and a nod: that's how people live with their religion here, no matter whether we're catholic or protestant. Yes, we believe in God and Jesus Christ, yes we belong to a church - but that doesn't mean we follow every rule and every thought of some old men in Rome. We just don't take the whole religion thingie so seriously.

I have a side question regarding the wine during communion: in German RC churches, only the priest drinks from the cup. He does so representatively for all others. The churchgoers only get a wafer, but no wine. Is this different in the US (and other countries)?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2007, 09:12:17 am »
the athletic rigors of an Episcopal service.  You have to stand up at certain parts, then kneel, then set, then stand up again.  It was just up and down, up and down the whole time.  Since I come from a Baptist background where you pretty much sit there and listen, I was a bit in awe.

 :laugh: In one of my favorite books as a kid, two sisters switch from the Baptist church to the Episcopal church (that's not the whole plot -- just a minor episode). Their dad makes this exact same comment!

After reading that book, I got my mom to take me to the Episcopalian church for a few months. It was true, there was a lot of kneeling and getting up. But as I'd never attended much church before (aside from a Presbyterian Sunday school for a few months when I was younger) I had no basis for comparison.

Quote
The sermons were complete snoozefests.  The only one that I remember was about a boy walking by a fruit vender every day and steeling apples as he passed.  As far as I can tell the priest was saying that it was wrong of the boy to tempt himself, and that he should have avoided the vender if he couldn't stop himself from steeling the apples as he went by.  I just sat there and thought, wow!, so this is what passes for a moral dilemma around here.

Too easy for you, Gary? What -- did the sermons you were used to posed moral dilemmas like, "Imagine you're with a group of people hiding in a basement during wartime, and suddenly a baby starts crying ..."?  :laugh:

I went with a friend to a Catholic service once, and the priest told a story about this kid who had five dollars. He decided to give them to the poor. Then he found another five dollars in the street! So God was rewarding him for his charity! My friend whispered to me, "If he hadn't given away the first five he'd have ten dollars, but I don't think that was the point of the story." That cracked me up, and I couldn't stop giggling for a long time. I didn't get invited back, either.






Offline opinionista

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2007, 11:00:55 am »
I like this description.
About 1/3 of all inhabitants in Germany belong to the roman-catholic church (another 1/3 is protestant). But I have never met anybody (at least not knowingly) who truly believes in the transubstantiation, meaning who truly believes the wafer will magically be transformed into meat.
Somehow I doubt that anybody believes it.

I agree. I think most folk, even here in Catholic Spain, know the whole transubstantiation thing is symbolic.

Quote
Back to Gary's Catholicism with a wink and a nod: that's how people live with their religion here, no matter whether we're catholic or protestant. Yes, we believe in God and Jesus Christ, yes we belong to a church - but that doesn't mean we follow every rule and every thought of some old men in Rome. We just don't take the whole religion thingie so seriously.

In Spain there's a new trend. A lot of people have signed a document (sometimes it is some kind of book) letting the Church know they formally quit the Church and everything it represents. In Spanish we call it Apostatar. I believe in English is apostatize, but not sure. A priest from a neaby town in Madrid got fed up with it and took the book away. He actually prohibited people to sign said book, causing a major protest in the town. Protesters even called the news, and he had to put it back.


Quote
I have a side question regarding the wine during communion: in German RC churches, only the priest drinks from the cup. He does so representatively for all others. The churchgoers only get a wafer, but no wine. Is this different in the US (and other countries)?

I've seen this in Spain too. I think the Health Department prohibits the Church to give wine to everyone from the same cup. They only get a wafer.

PS. It should be the same in US Mainland because in Puerto Rico (according to my aunt) nobody gets to drink from the cup. Only the priest.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2007, 11:04:13 am »
If one has not fulfilled all or any of the requirements leading up to the taking of communion at Mass, it is my personal opinion that it is not appropriate to do so. And it all comes down to those four little words, "The Body of Christ." If you cannot honestly respond, "Amen," in accordance with Catholic doctrine, it is not appropriate for you to be responding, "Amen."
I should note that the only communion I have ever received has been at Methodist services. The Methodist church (or at least ones at whose services I have attended) welcomes all to come forward and partake of communion. In all cases in which I have done so, I felt it would have been awkward and embarrassing to have refused. I have rationalized my experiences of communion by telling myself that I am worthy of Jesus's sacrifice, though I do not believe in the necessity (nor necessarily believe in the efficacy) of the sacrifice.

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2007, 12:53:43 pm »
I have a side question regarding the wine during communion: in German RC churches, only the priest drinks from the cup. He does so representatively for all others. The churchgoers only get a wafer, but no wine. Is this different in the US (and other countries)?

Everywhere I have traveled or lived in the US, the wine is offered from a common cup in Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran Churches, some people partake from the cup, some by intinction (dipping the wafer in the wine and placing it on the tongue), some take the wafer only and pass on the wine totally. It is left to the sensibilities of the communicant.   I don't know about any other denominations as my experience is only with these three, 
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Offline southendmd

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2007, 03:33:03 pm »
I have a side question regarding the wine during communion: in German RC churches, only the priest drinks from the cup. He does so representatively for all others. The churchgoers only get a wafer, but no wine. Is this different in the US (and other countries)?

Like David, I was also a Catholic altar boy.  In our parish, only the priest drank from the cup.  However, I have been to other Catholic churches where the wine is offered, with a little wipe in between.  This was called "receiving both species".  I noticed this was more popular during the 70s when there were so-called "folk masses" with guitars and hand-holding and such.

I don't go to Mass at all now, except funerals.  I recently attended a Catholic funeral where the priest made it very clear that if you were not Catholic, you could under no circumstance, receive communion.  He did, however, suggest that non-Catholics could get in line with everyone else.  But, instead of putting out thier hands to receive communion, non-Catholics could put their cross their hands over their chest, and the priest would give them a special blessing.  I decided to stay seated, and risk being awkward. :)

I remember that one was supposed to go to confession before receiving communion.  I thought it odd that children get their First Communion at age 6 and their First Confession at age 9??

First Confession was a bizarre thing:  I couldn't think of what to say.  Someone said think of the ten commandments.  So, I said:  "Forgive me Father for I have sinned.  I didn't pick up my towel in the bathroom, I fought with my brother, and I coveted my sister's Barbie."   :)

Offline opinionista

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2007, 04:00:11 pm »
It is so ironic. I keep reading terrible stories about growing up catholic and it seems to be more a traumatic experience than a rewarding one! And God it is supposed to be love. I actually feel lucky my Dad is an atheist, and kept us away from all that. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone, but I had to get this off my chest. I strongly believe in freedom of Religion.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2007, 05:46:21 pm »
It is so ironic. I keep reading terrible stories about growing up catholic and it seems to be more a traumatic experience than a rewarding one! And God it is supposed to be love. I actually feel lucky my Dad is an atheist, and kept us away from all that. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone, but I had to get this off my chest. I strongly believe in freedom of Religion.
I hear you, Natali, and concur. My sister and I were not raised religiously, and my father has been an atheist from even before I was born. I feel blessed to have been spared the horrors that so many have endured from religious upbringings.

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2007, 07:13:33 pm »

           I was raised as a Baptist.  My mother was one, my grandparents were also.  My father was a Catholic.
I dont remember the horrid hell fire and damnation speeches much though.  They were mostly the guilt ridden, "come to me type."
           I do however remember the communion.  There was this huge round tray, with a bowl in the
middle on which they placed the crackers or wafers.   Then surrounding that in tiny little vials,, or cups
about the amt of a teaspoonful, were the filled wine cups...we were handed the wafers, and took our own
cup, drank the liquid and then replaced it in its own little round slot.  That seems a lot more sanitary to me.
That is the only way I ever took communion...   The place that made those, must have quit making them..



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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2007, 07:24:25 pm »
I hear you, Natali, and concur. My sister and I were not raised religiously, and my father has been an atheist from even before I was born. I feel blessed to have been spared the horrors that so many have endured from religious upbringings.

I'd be interested to know whether anybody HAS been to a church or religious organization that they found inspiring and/or enlightening.

As a non-Christian, not-very-religious person, I always hold out hope for Unitarians, because their customs seem most appropriate for me. In the few times I've gone to Unitarian churches, I haven't heard a sermon that really blew me away.

I've checked out Wicca, considered Baha'i, read a little bit about Buddhism, but nothing quite does it for me. So it seems that whatever religious and/or spiritual needs I have (and I'm not sure what needs I do have, if any), will have to be met on my own. Yet there's also something appealing about being part of a community.

Not to sound to sacreligious, but I think actually discussing Brokeback Mountain here and at imdb is about as close as I've come to being part of a community of people who shared some passionate belief in something. Something that also seems to possess important elements of religion: spiritual, intellectual, aesthetic, etc.





Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2007, 07:58:10 pm »

Quote
Baptists believe people sin all the time, and even the small stuff can land you in hell forever.  If the preacher at our church had given a sermon about a boy stealing apples he'd shout at us, and scold us severly, and point an accusing finger, and say over and over and over again, at the very top of his lungs, that according to the Word of God stealing is a sin.  And he'd warn us about hellfire licking and burning our flesh for eternity.  But there is an escape to all of this.  If you repent, you are immediately let off the hook.

CAN I GET AN "AMEN"?!?!?

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Luckily, I didn't attend a church like this, but plenty of my friends did.  Their brand of Christianity is less about god is love and more about learning to be god fearing.

Quote
(No need for a priest to give you absolution.  There are no middlemen in the Baptist faith.  It's just you and God.  And how you stand with him is between you and him.  Not even the preacher has anything to say about that...So if you're a Baptist you can kill the baby, but so long as you feel sorry after, it's okay.

Sadly and not to insult anyone, but a greater part of Christianity is exactly this.  You can do whatever you want, but so long as you're sorry about it afterwards, you're forgiven.  All you have to do is say something like "I am sorry for my acts, I have asked and god has forgiven me" and that's supposed to be good enough to free you of any guilt or responsibility for any heinous crime you might have committed.  ::) ::) ::)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2007, 08:18:16 pm »
Well, in the Roman Catholic faith there are some conditions which must be met before you are forgiven by God.

In order for a confession to be valid:

1.You must confess ALL your sins since your last Confession. If you happen to forget some during Confession, it's okay, but you must make a sincere and honest attempt to confess them all.

2. You must be sincerely sorry for your sins. Only you and God knows if you are truly sorry or not. If you are not sorry, you are wasting both your time and the priest's time in the confessional. The priest absolves you, but it is GOD who forgives you.

3. You must try to NEVER commit these sins again.

4. You must do your penance. I remember when I was a kid, the priest would give much larger penances. 10 rosaries, 20 Our Fathers, 20 Hail Mary's, etc.. The last time I went to Confession, the priest gave me 2 Our Fathers and 2 Hail Marys for my penance. That was it! Back in the old days, they would make the penitent stand outside the church covered in ashes. Things have changed since then. 

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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2007, 08:27:37 pm »
           I was raised as a Baptist.  My mother was one, my grandparents were also.  My father was a Catholic.
I dont remember the horrid hell fire and damnation speeches much though.  They were mostly the guilt ridden, "come to me type."
           I do however remember the communion.  There was this huge round tray, with a bowl in the
middle on which they placed the crackers or wafers.   Then surrounding that in tiny little vials,, or cups
about the amt of a teaspoonful, were the filled wine cups...we were handed the wafers, and took our own
cup, drank the liquid and then replaced it in its own little round slot.  That seems a lot more sanitary to me.
That is the only way I ever took communion...   The place that made those, must have quit making them..

They still make them Janice, in all styles and sizes and you even see them in Roman Catholic Churchs from time to time, at least I have.  But most often they are used in more protestant churches, with the more catholic demoninations adhering to the more traditional method of Chalice (cup) and Purificator ( cloth that wipes the rim)



The little, clear plastic cups are disposable and are sold in bags of 1000.
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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2007, 09:21:22 pm »
*snip*

P.S.  I know there are kinder and gentler Baptists out there.  The church I attended was in the hills of West Virginia, and this was in the late 60's and early 70's.  So I found the whole Ted Haggard thing really shocking.  I just can't imagine a preacher who hires rent boys and does drugs in his spare time.  Maybe it's time for me to go back to church.   ;D

I feel sorry for the people that put their trust and money into this man's ministry. It's really not so funny. A lot of people are hurt. To put your belief and trust into someone only to find they are betraying everything you believe in is very hard to deal with. It makes you question your own judgement....your own ability to 'read' people.

and I know also for all of you that are NOT Christian or identify with a particular religion that it is hip and cool to be all dismissive but there are some good things about religion. Just as I wouldn't mock your faith or lack thereof, I would ask that you think of your fellow residents that read this and try to be kind.

Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2007, 08:20:47 am »
Well, in the Roman Catholic faith there are some conditions which must be met before you are forgiven by God.

In order for a confession to be valid:

1.You must confess ALL your sins since your last Confession. If you happen to forget some during Confession, it's okay, but you must make a sincere and honest attempt to confess them all.

2. You must be sincerely sorry for your sins. Only you and God knows if you are truly sorry or not. If you are not sorry, you are wasting both your time and the priest's time in the confessional. The priest absolves you, but it is GOD who forgives you.

3. You must try to NEVER commit these sins again.

4. You must do your penance. I remember when I was a kid, the priest would give much larger penances. 10 rosaries, 20 Our Fathers, 20 Hail Mary's, etc.. The last time I went to Confession, the priest gave me 2 Our Fathers and 2 Hail Marys for my penance. That was it! Back in the old days, they would make the penitent stand outside the church covered in ashes. Things have changed since then. 

Thank you for making that point, David. According to RC doctrine, only God can forgive you your sins. However, it is done via the sacrament of penance/forgiveness in confession, as administered by an anointed priest.

Regarding excommunication (raised earlier by Gary), only the Pope can excommunicate someone. It cannot be done by a priest. To be excommunicated by the Pope means you no longer have an immortal soul, according to RC doctrine.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2007, 09:12:20 am »
A relative of mine fits all that RC criteria.  When I brought up the issue of transubstantiation and how kinda gross that sounded, she merely replied, "But I poop Him out again."  ;D

And for precisely the same reason, I will not be ordering a dish of this dessert, when next I visit New York (as reported in Time magazine):

"$25,000 is the cost of the world's most expensive dessert. Made of milk, cocoa, 5g of 24-karat gold, gold-flecked whipped cream and shavings from a rare chocolate truffle, it's available at New York City's Serendipity 3, which has yet to sell one. By comparison, the price of the 2008  Toyota Camry Hybrid is $25,200."

At the very least it is decadent. At the worst, it's immoral, considering world poverty levels. It doesn't bear thinking about how many starving people could be fed with the cost of that one dessert. And it's just going to be pooped out, anyway!  ::)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2007, 12:37:11 pm »
I know. But then, as philosopher Peter Singer always reminds us, many starving or sick people could be saved on what regular old middle class people spend on normal everyday luxuries.

One of his famous dilemmas: You see a chlid standing on a train track with a train bearing down. You could save her, but to do so you'd have to leave your $25,200 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid on the tracks and have it totalled. Would you save the child anyway? Just about everyone would say, of course.

Well then, he responds, how can you spend $25,200 on a 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid, knowing that by doing so you are spending money that could otherwise be used to save countless starving or sick children?


Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2007, 01:07:34 pm »
I know. But then, as philosopher Peter Singer always reminds us, many starving or sick people could be saved on what regular old middle class people spend on normal everyday luxuries.

One of his famous dilemmas: You see a chlid standing on a train track with a train bearing down. You could save her, but to do so you'd have to leave your $25,200 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid on the tracks and have it totalled. Would you save the child anyway? Just about everyone would say, of course.

Well then, he responds, how can you spend $25,200 on a 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid, knowing that by doing so you are spending money that could otherwise be used to save countless starving or sick children?

I guess a good response to Mr. Singer would be "Guess you haven't seen the price of gas or cars lately, eh?"

That's just one of those rhetorical philosophical statements.  $25K isn't going to stop children from being sick or from starving.  In order for that to happen, entire governments need to change, people's values need to change and populations need to be educated and at times uprooted from areas that are prone to disease/starvation.

One family's or 100 families $25,000 donation isn't going to help any of that.

Offline Shasta542

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2007, 01:40:07 pm »
I think that things like spending 2500 a night for a hotel when you can be quite comfortable in an 80 a night room are the things I'd think are extravagant. Maybe the extra 2420 couldn't help a lot of people, but it could help a couple.

Old story:


One morning an elderly man was walking on a nearly deserted beach. He came upon a boy surrounded by thousands and thousands of starfish. As eagerly as he could, the youngster was picking them up and throwing them back into the ocean.

Puzzled, the older man looked at the young boy and asked, "Little boy, what are you doing?"

The youth responded without looking up, "I'm trying to save these starfish, sir."

The old man chuckled aloud, and queried, "Son, there are thousands of starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?"

Holding a starfish in his hand, the boy turned to the man and, gently tossing the starfish into the water, said, "It will make a difference to that one!"


Everyone can help someone on a small scale. No one can help everyone.

I don't think we are required to sleep on the floor or eat beans all the time, but we don't have to have the BEST of everything with no thought of helping others. Most of us can't do anything GLOBALLY, but LOCALLY -- we may be able to make a difference in small and large ways.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2007, 01:51:06 pm »
I don't own a car, and I don't drive.  So I know how difficult it is to get around without one.  I imagine that it would be very hard to find and hold down a good job if you lived in a rural area without a reliable car, since you wouldn't have any public transportation to turn to.  So if you gave up your car for charity, you might become a charity case yourself, and that certainly wouldn't solve any problems. 

But the real point of this question may be how can you spend money on anything you can do without when you know there are needy people in the world?  I don't have a lot of money, but I do spend some of it on things I don't really need in order to sustain my life.  But books and movies and the internet, and little things like an attractive and comfortable sofa, etc., ...these things do sustain my spirit.  I do believe that I would be miserable if I lived in a shanty, slept on a mat on the bare ground, and ate nothing but beans.  I might get some satisfaction knowing I was able to give a few hundred dollars a month to charity, but still I'd be pretty depressed, and I'd likely soon lose my humanity and desire to help anyone.  I might even lose my desire to live.

I spoke of how I believe that morality flows from love -- love in the greater theological sense, not emotion -- back in the death penalty thread.  One of the things I learned while studying this form of ethics in school is that love comes from a possition of strength.  You must first love yourself before you can love anyone else.  And althought there are some saintly people who could love themselves and still force themselves to live in a shanty and eat beans, most of us couldn't do that without hating ourselves, and in short order we'd be hating the rest of the world, too.  And no charity would flow from that.

Gary   

The writer Isak Dinesen wrote once that one of the worst tragedies in life was poverty.  It kept one from being one's self.  Meaning, scrabbling every day just to find food and shelter and clothing kept humans from exercising their minds.  All the great accomplishments of humankind have come from having leisure time.

So while $25K could save a child from starving - for a while at least - this is one of those give a fish or teach them to fish lessons - it's not going to do much in the long run, which is the goal.

There have been saints in the past from whatever religion, but I'm not sure their sacrifices - living in the desert and eating locusts and honey or living off the welfare of others like traveling monks/rabbis - actually accomplished very much other than pointing out to people that they could be happy and contented and peaceful still living in abject poverty because what came after whether a reward, resurrection or next incarnation would be better.

Basically telling people to put up with their circumstances. 

Offline Shasta542

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2007, 02:16:30 pm »
And I'd like to point out that even if you don't have a lot of money to give away -- I don't -- you can still help people by offering them kindness and understanding.  This has a ripple effect and it might end up helping someone who doesn't have the basic necessities.  Like the boy in your story, his concern for an individual starfish might cause the man who questioned the efficacy of saving a few starfish when thousands were likely to die to view things differently.  And he in turn may decide that it's worth at least doing what he can, even if it is a drop in the bucket.  Isn't a full bucket made up of a multitude of drops?  Doesn't someone have to start somewhere?

Be good to yourself.  Give yourself what you need to sustain your life, and be happy.  Then do something for someone else.   :D

Gary

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Offline Kelda

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2007, 02:32:42 pm »
Wow - this took me a long time to read this thread. But to get back on topic.

I am of the Janice mindset. I think it would be hard but if it meant saving others - including children I probably would do it.

In a situation of life and death - instincts take over. Some people would fight for their life with every being of their body - others would just give up.

Obvioulsy i try things first, and I might accidently do it but I reckon I ould fight for my life. I would feel terrible about it and think about it every day of my life but at the same time - a la Private Ryan - I would make every day count.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2007, 02:36:05 pm »
Hi Del,

Thanks for this.  This is just what I was trying to get it.  You're not likely to help anyone by treating yourself like trash.

I have read Out of Africa, but I don't recall the quote that you refer to.  Maybe I didn't notice it, or it's slipped my mind, or maybe it's from something else that she wrote.  In any event, it's a great point.

I think Virginia Woolf made a very similar point in A Room Of One's Own.  We don't need anything extragant, but we do need the space and the freedome that comes from some amount of affluence in order to create.  If I recall she was writing specifically about how women need to have some amount of independence from men in order to be themselves.  But the same principal is true for all of us.  If our possition in the world isn't relatively secure then we won't have much time to even think about someone else's needs, much less have the desire to reach out.

Gary

She didn't write it in Out of Africa, it came from one of her letters during that period.  Virginia Woolf really pinned it down and I'm not surprised, they were contemporaries.  Western women were just starting to roll on their emancipation and they understood how being in poverty - poverty of material goods or just spirit - was enslaving.

You're completely right.  This holds true for all.  There is no accomplishment, no charity for anyone when everyone is struggling just to live.

Offline Kelda

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2007, 02:38:04 pm »
Oh and to add, although I don't know anyone personally that was involved directly in ther holocaust (My sisters ex grandad in law had his number tattoed on to his arm but I never met him and apprently he never EVER talked about it and she never saw that number) but having visited Auswitch - I had a very VERY strong emotional reaction to it - as most people do. If you have such a strong reactyion to it 60 years later, imagine what you felt to actually be there.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2007, 10:27:17 pm »
P.S.  I just wanted to add that I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my comments.  I didn't meant to be insensitive to any Catholics, or former Catholics here.   :)

Certainly no offence taken by me, Gary. I thoroughly enjoy reading your intelligent, insightful posts.  :D
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Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2007, 10:52:10 pm »
Thanks for that infromation, Kerry.  But a priest can deny to hear your confession or give you absolution, right?  And wouldn't these things, in a Catholic's view keep you from going to heaven when you die?

Gary

You are absolutely correct, Gary. Point taken.

Australia's most senior RC prelate is Sydney's Cardinal George Pell. A despicable, hate-filled homophobe of the highest order, if ever there was one. He refuses to give Holy Communion to "practising" homosexuals. Every now and then, members of the Rainbow Sash organisation front-up at the altar rail at St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney, draped in their rainbow sashes. They are always quiet, dignified and respectful of their surroundings. Even their rainbow sashes are sombre and understated. It's not as though they enter the cathedral in drag, disruptively chanting gay slogans. No, they solemnly join the other communicants at the altar rail. And what does Cardinal Pell do? He refuses them HC and instead makes a sign of the cross in their general direction. Despicable.  >:(

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Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2007, 11:01:45 pm »
Oh and to add, although I don't know anyone personally that was involved directly in ther holocaust (My sisters ex grandad in law had his number tattoed on to his arm but I never met him and apprently he never EVER talked about it and she never saw that number) but having visited Auswitch - I had a very VERY strong emotional reaction to it - as most people do. If you have such a strong reactyion to it 60 years later, imagine what you felt to actually be there.

I recently read a wonderful quote, Kelda, that had me in tears. Apparently it stands at the entrance to one of the concentration camps:

"When they came for the Communists, I did not say
anything, for you see I was not a Communist.
When they came for the trade unionists I did not speak up,
because I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews, I did not protest, because
I was not a Jew.
And when they came for the homosexuals, I remained silent,
because I am not a homosexual.
Now they come for me, there is no one left to speak for me."
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2007, 01:33:44 am »
I recently read a wonderful quote, Kelda, that had me in tears. Apparently it stands at the entrance to one of the concentration camps:

"When they came for the Communists, I did not say
anything, for you see I was not a Communist.
When they came for the trade unionists I did not speak up,
because I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews, I did not protest, because
I was not a Jew.
And when they came for the homosexuals, I remained silent,
because I am not a homosexual.
Now they come for me, there is no one left to speak for me."


‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’



Offline underdown

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #94 on: December 03, 2007, 08:43:18 am »
I know. But then, as philosopher Peter Singer always reminds us, many starving or sick people could be saved on what regular old middle class people spend on normal everyday luxuries.

One of his famous dilemmas: You see a chlid standing on a train track with a train bearing down. You could save her, but to do so you'd have to leave your $25,200 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid on the tracks and have it totalled. Would you save the child anyway? Just about everyone would say, of course.

Well then, he responds, how can you spend $25,200 on a 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid, knowing that by doing so you are spending money that could otherwise be used to save countless starving or sick children?



Scenario 1:
Driver leaps out of car, leaves it on the tracks, saves the child and the car is smashed.
This story of sacrifice and courage makes headlines and inspires selflessness in a host of people.
Driver refuses reward from parents of saved child, and says he/she is just glad that the child is ok, and wishes that all children could be saved.
Parents of saved child donate to childrens' charity.
Car manufacturer gives the driver a new car, benefits from the publicity and inspires even more goodwill.

Scenario 2:
Driver does nothing, watches as the child is killed, sells the car and donates the money to save starving children in Africa.
Driver inspires a 'Why should I do anything ... I'll just give some money' attitude in others.
Driver suffers depression, can't work, and his/her children starve.
He/she is never again in a position to help anybody.

Gary, you mde a great point when you mentioned the ripple effect.
Good or bad, it can have a real influence on the morality of Governments, religious groups, society and relationships.

Love the story about the starfish, Shasta. Who knows if such things are merely local?
I read your story in Australia, and I'm sure that, within Bettermost, a lot of these posts are appreciated globally.
Maybe they have a far more reaching effect than we realise?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2007, 11:18:58 am »
That's just one of those rhetorical philosophical statements.  $25K isn't going to stop children from being sick or from starving.

$25K goes a long way in Africa. Singer talks about the world's poorest people living on less than the spending equivalent of one U.S. dollar a day. Donate that $25,000 to one baby, and you've doubled their standard of living for the next 68 years. I can't quote the cost of vaccinations and medicine, but they seem to be pretty affordable. Poor children who don't die of starvation often die of diseases that are easily treatable or preventable in industrialized countries. So yes, even a few dollars could potentially save a life. Or, back to the starfish, even if a single vaccination cost $25,000, so your car contribution saved only one life, wouldn't that one life still be worth it?

Quote
  In order for that to happen, entire governments need to change, people's values need to change and populations need to be educated

Yes. That is exactly what Peter Singer is attempting to do.

He's not trying to get you, one person, to sell your car. He's trying to get all Americans to think about the cost of the luxuries they enjoy, whether it's a $25,000 car, a $25,000 truffle, or all the other things we buy for ourselves.

Here's a recent Singer essay on the topic, which I just read in Best American Essays 2007, and ran in the New York Times Magazine last year. It's really though-provoking; I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/magazine/17charity.t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

Here's how he calculates things could change if people started thinking in those terms:

Quote
Philosophers like Liam Murphy of New York University and my colleague Kwame Anthony Appiah at Princeton ... calculate how much would be required to ensure that the world’s poorest people have a chance at a decent life, and then divide this sum among the affluent.

... What might that fair amount be? One way of calculating it would be to take as our target, at least for the next nine years, the Millennium Development Goals, set by the United Nations Millennium Summit in 2000. On that occasion, the largest gathering of world leaders in history jointly pledged to meet, by 2015, a list of goals that include:

Reducing by half the proportion of the world’s people in extreme poverty (defined as living on less than the purchasing-power equivalent of one U.S. dollar per day).

Reducing by half the proportion of people who suffer from hunger.

Ensuring that children everywhere are able to take a full course of primary schooling.

Ending sex disparity in education.

Reducing by two-thirds the mortality rate among children under 5.

Reducing by three-quarters the rate of maternal mortality.

Halting and beginning to reverse the spread of H.I.V./AIDS and halting and beginning to reduce the incidence of malaria and other major diseases.

Reducing by half the proportion of people without sustainable access to safe drinking water.

Last year a United Nations task force, led by the Columbia University economist Jeffrey Sachs, estimated the annual cost of meeting these goals to be $121 billion in 2006, rising to $189 billion by 2015. When we take account of existing official development aid promises, the additional amount needed each year to meet the goals is only $48 billion for 2006 and $74 billion for 2015.

Now let’s look at the incomes of America’s rich and superrich, and ask how much they could reasonably give. The task is made easier by statistics recently provided by Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, economists at the École Normale Supérieure, Paris-Jourdan, and the University of California, Berkeley, respectively, based on U.S. tax data for 2004. Their figures are for pretax income, excluding income from capital gains, which for the very rich are nearly always substantial. For simplicity I have rounded the figures, generally downward. Note too that the numbers refer to “tax units,” that is, in many cases, families rather than individuals.

Piketty and Saez’s top bracket comprises 0.01 percent of U.S. taxpayers. There are 14,400 of them, earning an average of $12,775,000, with total earnings of $184 billion. The minimum annual income in this group is more than $5 million, so it seems reasonable to suppose that they could, without much hardship, give away a third of their annual income, an average of $4.3 million each, for a total of around $61 billion. That would still leave each of them with an annual income of at least $3.3 million.

Next comes the rest of the top 0.1 percent (excluding the category just described, as I shall do henceforth). There are 129,600 in this group, with an average income of just over $2 million and a minimum income of $1.1 million. If they were each to give a quarter of their income, that would yield about $65 billion, and leave each of them with at least $846,000 annually.

The top 0.5 percent consists of 575,900 taxpayers, with an average income of $623,000 and a minimum of $407,000. If they were to give one-fifth of their income, they would still have at least $325,000 each, and they would be giving a total of $72 billion.

Coming down to the level of those in the top 1 percent, we find 719,900 taxpayers with an average income of $327,000 and a minimum of $276,000. They could comfortably afford to give 15 percent of their income. That would yield $35 billion and leave them with at least $234,000.

Finally, the remainder of the nation’s top 10 percent earn at least $92,000 annually, with an average of $132,000. There are nearly 13 million in this group. If they gave the traditional tithe — 10 percent of their income, or an average of $13,200 each — this would yield about $171 billion and leave them a minimum of $83,000.

You could spend a long time debating whether the fractions of income I have suggested for donation constitute the fairest possible scheme. Perhaps the sliding scale should be steeper, so that the superrich give more and the merely comfortable give less. And it could be extended beyond the Top 10 percent of American families, so that everyone able to afford more than the basic necessities of life gives something, even if it is as little as 1 percent. Be that as it may, the remarkable thing about these calculations is that a scale of donations that is unlikely to impose significant hardship on anyone yields a total of $404 billion — from just 10 percent of American families.

Obviously, the rich in other nations should share the burden of relieving global poverty. The U.S. is responsible for 36 percent of the gross domestic product of all Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development nations. Arguably, because the U.S. is richer than all other major nations, and its wealth is more unevenly distributed than wealth in almost any other industrialized country, the rich in the U.S. should contribute more than 36 percent of total global donations. So somewhat more than 36 percent of all aid to relieve global poverty should come from the U.S. For simplicity, let’s take half as a fair share for the U.S. On that basis, extending the scheme I have suggested worldwide would provide $808 billion annually for development aid. That’s more than six times what the task force chaired by Sachs estimated would be required for 2006 in order to be on track to meet the Millennium Development Goals, and more than 16 times the shortfall between that sum and existing official development aid commitments.

BTW, this esssay doesn't include the child-on-the-RR-tracks scenario, which I read in a different Singer essay, but it offers a similar example:

Quote
In an article I wrote more than three decades ago, at the time of a humanitarian emergency in what is now Bangladesh, I used the example of walking by a shallow pond and seeing a small child who has fallen in and appears to be in danger of drowning. Even though we did nothing to cause the child to fall into the pond, almost everyone agrees that if we can save the child at minimal inconvenience or trouble to ourselves, we ought to do so. Anything else would be callous, indecent and, in a word, wrong. The fact that in rescuing the child we may, for example, ruin a new pair of shoes is not a good reason for allowing the child to drown. Similarly if for the cost of a pair of shoes we can contribute to a health program in a developing country that stands a good chance of saving the life of a child, we ought to do so.

But books and movies and the internet, and little things like an attractive and comfortable sofa, etc., ...these things do sustain my spirit.  I do believe that I would be miserable if I lived in a shanty, slept on a mat on the bare ground, and ate nothing but beans.  I might get some satisfaction knowing I was able to give a few hundred dollars a month to charity, but still I'd be pretty depressed, and I'd likely soon lose my humanity and desire to help anyone.

Gary, I don't think even Singer would expect you to give until you're living in a shanty, sleeping on a floor mat and eating only beans. In this particular article, in fact, he is talking about millionaires and billionaires, though I've also seen similar things he's written directed at more common folk. But in any case, I don't think he's saying that, in order to be moral human beings, we all must give away our money until we live under impoverished circumstances. He's saying that, in America, there's a big, big gap between floor mats and beans, and the way most of us actually do live. And he's suggesting that we all think hard about the cost of that gap.

Here's one more excerpt from that essay, about an extreme example of what we're talking about:

Quote
Few people have set a personal example that would allow them to tell [Bill] Gates [who Singer considers an example of generous giving] that he has not given enough, but one who could is Zell Kravinsky. A few years ago, when he was in his mid-40s, Kravinsky gave almost all of his $45 million real estate fortune to health-related charities, retaining only his modest family home in Jenkintown, near Philadelphia, and enough to meet his family’s ordinary expenses. After learning that thousands of people with failing kidneys die each year while waiting for a transplant, he contacted a Philadelphia hospital and donated one of his kidneys to a complete stranger.

But even Kravinsky stopped short of reducing his lifestyle to floor mats and beans.


Offline Katness

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2008, 06:48:19 am »
I know this may not be listed as an option but, personally I could not smother the child. But I also could not let the people with me be killed. So the only thing I would see as an alternative would be to take the child find a clear enough route out of the place with the least amount of enemies roaming around. Stay low and with child concealed with me, stifling as much of the crying as possible. Leave the group and run like I have never run before till I reached safety. Even if it was day time I'd find the route with most shelter. Night time, I'd use cover of darkness and the route with most shelter. And I'd work out a way not to let anyone know there are others in there. If anyone saw me, I'd make it out like I'm alone with child and make them come after me. Give the others a chance.

And I'm not just saying that. I stand by what I said. On that note. However, if there was no other alternative, and not being able to kill the child myself. And if there was no one else who would. Then I'd probably let the child die by committing suicide by taking the child and walking out into the middle of a group of the enemies in surrender form while acting completely alone and if asked if I was alone I'd simply and blatantly say yes. And let them kill both me and the child. 

But thats just me. I'd prefer to either run and give the people I'm with a chance by making them come after me. Or let myself be killed with child while concealing the people I'm with where they won't be discovered.

Bah, I care too much. It makes my head hurt sometimes.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

If all is not lost, then where is it?

I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Offline Kelda

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2008, 02:40:33 pm »
I was reminded of this quiz a few days ago - and for the life of me I can't not remeber what programme I was watching or what I was reading - think it may have been something about Rwanda or the likes - but it was talking about how trhis woman had been hid with her family by a local priest to stop them getting killed - and the priest had given the kids sleeping pills to keep them quiet so that they wouldn;t be discovered.

It made me think I would stalk up in such a thing should I ever be in that situation......
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Offline Kerry

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2008, 10:35:18 pm »
I was reminded of this quiz a few days ago - and for the life of me I can't not remeber what programme I was watching or what I was reading - think it may have been something about Rwanda or the likes - but it was talking about how trhis woman had been hid with her family by a local priest to stop them getting killed - and the priest had given the kids sleeping pills to keep them quiet so that they wouldn;t be discovered.

It made me think I would stalk up in such a thing should I ever be in that situation......

Might have been the recent tragic events in Kenya, Kelda. All those poor people who took shelter in the church and were incinerated.  :'(
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Offline Kelda

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Re: The Morality Quiz
« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2008, 07:28:10 am »
No it was a historical article.... I remember that - talking to three different people -one from the bosnia herzogovina war, one this african lady and one a guy from... somewhere.....

But yeah the Kenya situation is not good - to think ther may be these ,morality questions going on right now......   :'(
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