Author Topic: TOTW 17/07: Why didn't Jack offer Ennis a ride when they got down the mountain?  (Read 24859 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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Mornin all,

this week, we have yet another topic suggested by a BetterMost resident  :D. Thank you, Souxi, for this topic!

Before we start with the TOTW, I'd like to give you a gentle reminder about going off-topic: it's fine to let threads meander and to gow with the flow. Such side discussions have often brought great insights and sometimes even new perpectives on the original topic. But I don't encourage throwing random topics into the mix.


Now on with Souxi's question:

Why didn't Jack offer Ennis a ride when they got down the mountain?


Obviously, this question is movie-only because in the story, they both had trucks. Another difference to the story is that they both headed into the same direction in the movie, at least for the moment Ang Lee showed us. Offering a ride would not be so far off in this situation. So why didn't Jack do it?



« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 02:52:32 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline Katie77

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I have always thought it was a bit weird that Jack did not give Ennis a ride, especially as, in the movie, they were going the same way.....

I guess if the story said they each had a truck, so obviosly, there was no more conversation between them until they finally met again four years later....if Jack had given Ennis a ride in the movie, and they had had some conversation....then that may have changed the whole concept of the story....

Makes you wonder why Ang just didnt give Ennis a truck, and keep to the original story...
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Makes you wonder why Ang just didnt give Ennis a truck, and keep to the original story...

Ah yes, but then we wouldn't have had that iconic image of Ennis in Jack's rear-view mirror...
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Katie77

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You know Chris, as soon as I typed that, I thought exactly the same thing................. ::)
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Offline Artiste

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Jack, in some ways, did offer Ennis a ride!

Hugs!

Offline Katie77

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Jack, in some ways, did offer Ennis a ride!

Hugs!

That he did Artiste......that he did.........and there were'nt no reins on that one
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Penthesilea

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One practical reason why Jack didn't offer Ennis a ride possibly was that they were indeed heading in opposite directions, even if not for the brief moment Ang Lee showed us.

Assuming Ten Sleep is indeed Signal and Ennis turned towards Riverton, their destinations were opposite from Signal:



So even if Jack had offered Ennis a ride, it would have lasted only a few hundred meters till the next crossing.


But of course there's more to it than that. The opening question has bugged me also for a while, combined with the inevitable "What might have been....."
I think one important reason why Jack acted the way he did is given by Ang Lee himself (paraphrasing): they were both cowboys. They didn't talk about their feelings; non-verbal communication is important; and they had pride. What's true for the whole movie is also true for this scene.

I think pride was a crucial factor here. Jack already had taken the punch from Ennis earlier, and was apparently and understandably pi**ed about it. Look at his face when they descent with the sheep.
Then, while standing beside his truck, Jack is all cautious and hesitant. And he makes one last attempt when he asks Ennis whether he's going to do this again next summer. And even after Ennis's negatory answer (which wasn't totally negatory, btw) he half-tries again with "I might be back ... if the army don't get me." He leaves a door open. Ennis at least knows where to find Jack next summer if he wants to.

I think Jack has gone as far as he thought he could without begging. I think to him Ennis seemed to be determined to not keep their relationship in any form. And therefore Jack must have doubted Ennis's feelings, respectively must have assumed it was just a one-shot-thing for Ennis for the summer, as he had said before. Understandable that he didn't ask Ennis anything more, not even offer a ride.

What Jack didn't realise, imo, was that Ennis was almost as reluctant and full of doubt as Jack. He didn't say no to Jack's question of doing this again next summer, he said 'Maybe not.' And he didn't directly go after he had said "Guess I'll see you around." He lingered and waited - for what? Another word from Jack? Another try? Maybe he even hoped for a ride, no matter how short?

Ennis didn't want to go and leave Jack behind once and for all, he thought he had to. Big difference.

Offline Artiste

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Penthesilea, you say: Ennis didn't want to go and leave Jack behind once and for all, he thought he had to. Big difference.
...

May I say that (the above) is so too, it seems to me, for Jack!! ?? At least in the movie. But same in the book?


Hugs!

Offline Katie77

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Wow,Penthesilea, I have watched that scene a hundred times, and felt so many things about it and what was happening, and  now you have just brilliantly put every one of those thoughts down in words...




I think pride was a crucial factor here. Jack already had taken the punch from Ennis earlier, and was apparently and understandably pi**ed about it. Look at his face when they descent with the sheep.
Then, while standing beside his truck, Jack is all cautious and hesitant. And he makes one last attempt when he asks Ennis whether he's going to do this again next summer. And even after Ennis's negatory answer (which wasn't totally negatory, btw) he half-tries again with "I might be back ... if the army don't get me." He leaves a door open. Ennis at least knows where to find Jack next summer if he wants to.


How many of us sat there, trying to push the two of them together, thinking to ourselves "talk to each other, damwell talk to each other, dont let this end, make some future arrangements"........but we could see the standofishness they both were feeling, or as you say, pride.


Then, while standing beside his truck, Jack is all cautious and hesitant. And he makes one last attempt when he asks Ennis whether he's going to do this again next summer. And even after Ennis's negatory answer (which wasn't totally negatory, btw) he half-tries again with "I might be back ... if the army don't get me." He leaves a door open. Ennis at least knows where to find Jack next summer if he wants to.

I think Jack has gone as far as he thought he could without begging. I think to him Ennis seemed to be determined to not keep their relationship in any form. And therefore Jack must have doubted Ennis's feelings, respectively must have assumed it was just a one-shot-thing for Ennis for the summer, as he had said before. Understandable that he didn't ask Ennis anything more, not even offer a ride.

didn't want to go and leave Jack behind once and for all, he thought he had to. Big difference.

The embarrassed half smile on Jacks face here, shows us that he feels he is on he brink of begging and he smiles to cover it up....I cringe a bit every time  I see that smile.....Ennis gave him no help at all, except to keep standing there, waiting for Jack to make the moves or say what they both wanted to say.....very very frustrating.....

We could tell that neither of them wanted to end it there....in Ennis's mind, he could not see past Novemeber, when he was gonna marry Alma....at least Jack had planned in his mind that he would come back next year....they mumbled and beat around he bush so much that we felt like shaking the two of them into some sort of conversation.....

By Ang, not having Jack give Ennis a ride, the final part of the scene, gave us the scenario that they were back to where they were before the whole Brokeback experience "got em,  .....Jack in his truck, and Ennis on the road.......the rearview mirror scene did the same thing.....In the beginning Jack looked at Ennis in the mirror (while he was shaving), and at the end, Jack was once again looking at Ennis in the mirror.....

To the outside world, everything was the same ...... made to look like they were still the same two young men who arrived there........that really was not the case, as shown by the look on Jacks face as he drove away, and shown by the emotional breakdown of Ennis as he crouched in the lane....
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Offline huntinbuddy

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Earlier, when Ennis comes down from the sheep, and Jack is taking down the tent; Ennis bitches about losing a months worth of pay, because of the sheepherding season being cut short.  Jack offers to loan Ennis some money when they get to Signal, and Ennis gets pissed about that. 

Then we have the fateful scene where Jack and Ennis get into a playful match, that turns violent as we see the short fuse that Ennis has.

By the time they get back to Signal, I don't think Jack is afraid of Ennis, but his heart wants to be with him, yet it seems he is afraid to ask or offer any additional help for Ennis, because of how he reacted to the money topic, and playing with the lasso.  I don't think he is afraid of getting his chops busted again, but just has all but given up on Ennis.  About all Jack can muster is to ask Ennis if he will be herding sheep again next summer.

I believe even if Jack would have offered Ennis a ride, Ennis's ego would have ruled, he would have refused....and still would have puked his guts out in the alley.

Offline loneleeb3

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I think it's cause Ennis just punched his lights out!
it was a bad day all around.
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Offline brokeplex

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One practical reason why Jack didn't offer Ennis a ride possibly was that they were indeed heading in opposite directions, even if not for the brief moment Ang Lee showed us.

Assuming Ten Sleep is indeed Signal and Ennis turned towards Riverton, their destinations were opposite from Signal:



So even if Jack had offered Ennis a ride, it would have lasted only a few hundred meters till the next crossing.


But of course there's more to it than that. The opening question has bugged me also for a while, combined with the inevitable "What might have been....."
I think one important reason why Jack acted the way he did is given by Ang Lee himself (paraphrasing): they were both cowboys. They didn't talk about their feelings; non-verbal communication is important; and they had pride. What's true for the whole movie is also true for this scene.

I think pride was a crucial factor here. Jack already had taken the punch from Ennis earlier, and was apparently and understandably pi**ed about it. Look at his face when they descent with the sheep.
Then, while standing beside his truck, Jack is all cautious and hesitant. And he makes one last attempt when he asks Ennis whether he's going to do this again next summer. And even after Ennis's negatory answer (which wasn't totally negatory, btw) he half-tries again with "I might be back ... if the army don't get me." He leaves a door open. Ennis at least knows where to find Jack next summer if he wants to.

I think Jack has gone as far as he thought he could without begging. I think to him Ennis seemed to be determined to not keep their relationship in any form. And therefore Jack must have doubted Ennis's feelings, respectively must have assumed it was just a one-shot-thing for Ennis for the summer, as he had said before. Understandable that he didn't ask Ennis anything more, not even offer a ride.

What Jack didn't realise, imo, was that Ennis was almost as reluctant and full of doubt as Jack. He didn't say no to Jack's question of doing this again next summer, he said 'Maybe not.' And he didn't directly go after he had said "Guess I'll see you around." He lingered and waited - for what? Another word from Jack? Another try? Maybe he even hoped for a ride, no matter how short?

Ennis didn't want to go and leave Jack behind once and for all, he thought he had to. Big difference.


How do we know that Signal is Ten Sleep? Signal would be close to a one of the National Forests in Wyo. Aguirre sent the boys up to tend the sheep on 'allotments', the allotments would have to be in a National Forest. The nearest National Forest to Dubois, where they ate breakfast after shovedown, is the National Forest in the Wind River Mountains, much closer to Riverton.

Offline brokeplex

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Jack was confused and scared of rejection. PRIDE!  He was also in denial. I think he clearly wanted to reconnect with Ennis, look how quickly he sprang to offer Ennis a loan. Had Ennis taken the loan, he would have been compelled to reconnect with Jack.

but that ain't the way AP wanted the story to go...........

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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He was afraid Ennis would see he had stolen his shirt.  :D
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline Artiste

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Both Ennis and Jack did not yet consider themselves either bi or gay men??

Then?

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Because they were going in opposite directions.

Offline Katie77

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He was afraid Ennis would see he had stolen his shirt.  :D

Good one Tru..... ::) ::) ::)
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Offline Front-Ranger

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How do we know that Signal is Ten Sleep? Signal would be close to a one of the National Forests in Wyo. Aguirre sent the boys up to tend the sheep on 'allotments', the allotments would have to be in a National Forest. The nearest National Forest to Dubois, where they ate breakfast after shovedown, is the National Forest in the Wind River Mountains, much closer to Riverton.

Your map analysis makes sense, but...Ten Sleep is the closest town to Brokenback Mountain, and there are several other clues that Signal is Ten Sleep. For one thing, the most prominent geologic feature is Signal Butte, just outside of town.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Off in two directions:


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Offline brokeplex

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Your map analysis makes sense, but...Ten Sleep is the closest town to Brokenback Mountain, and there are several other clues that Signal is Ten Sleep. For one thing, the most prominent geologic feature is Signal Butte, just outside of town.


Great point.  I don't mean to put off your analysis and that of Pent, because we really don't know where they are because there is no "Signal",WY or a "Brokeback Mountain" located in WY., they were made up. The idea that Brokeback Mountain is in the Big Horn region is just a valid as mine. But I have a restless mind and I like to look for geographical clues. Fortunately AP did give us some clues in the short story. I use the short story as canon in this analysis, if you use the movie, you can come to different conclusions.

Follow me along, and if you don't agree its all in fun anyway!

(To start, call up a detailed map of Wyoming, a topographical map that shows the communities with pops over 300 and all of the major physiographical features such as mountain ranges, creeks, the national forests, and rural roads.)

My assumption is that "Signal" is not Ten Sleep, but it actually should be a community near Dubois in the Wind River Ranges. Perhaps Burris or Crowheart. Why?

1) We know that the boys were tending to Aguirre's sheep on allotments. That means Brokeback Mountain is located inside National Forest lands.

Joe Aguirre gives them his point of view, "Forest Service got designated camp sites on the allotments." Indicating to me that Brokeback Mountain is located inside a National Forest that allows private sheep owners to use the forests service lands for seasonal grazing. A common practice out west.

2) We know that after shovedown the boys ate in Dubois,WY. In the 1967 scene in the Siesta motel Ennis says to Jack, "That summer, when we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puck, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois."

So they had to be reasonably near Dubois,WY  after the sheep were trucked off. If they were in the Ten Sleep area after shovedown, it just doesnt make any sense to drive the 175 miles plus to eat in Dubois.  They would eat somewhere close to Aguirre's base of operations in Signal.

3) The National Forest lands near Dubois are in the areas where the Wind River ranges, the Gros Ventres, and the Absorokas blend together.These forests are the Bridger-Teton and the Shoshone.

4) We know also from the short story that Brokeback Mountain itself is north of Fremont County,WY.

"Ennis, why are you rootin through them post cards?"
"Scene a Brokeback Mountain."
"Over in Fremont County?"
"No, north a here"   

I take from the story that Ennis is probably shopping in Riverton, WY which is in Fremont County, although I admit that is not made clear in the text. Why would the store owner say "over in Fremont County"? I think that she meant outside the immediate vicinity of the city but still within the same county as Riverton. I noticed in my summers in Montana that a lot of natives to the N. Rockies will refer to rural lands outside the cities as the "county". 

So, what are likely spots for Brokeback Mountain just north of Fremont county within easy drive of Dubois?

That would be the section of the Shoshone National Forest north of the Wind River Indian Reservation (there is also a section of the Shoshone south of the reservation) up towards Park County, WY. Perhaps not far from where the Continental Divide turns south near Brook Lake.

The Continental Divide! What a metaphor for what happened to the boys that summer.They crossed over the "divide", but couldn't face the reality of the new territory they had crossed into, hence the tragedy of the story.

For what its worth, that's my take.........

Offline Penthesilea

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Great point.  I don't mean to put off your analysis and that of Pent, because we really don't know where they are because there is no "Signal",WY or a "Brokeback Mountain" located in WY., they were made up. The idea that Brokeback Mountain is in the Big Horn region is just a valid as mine. But I have a restless mind and I like to look for geographical clues. Fortunately AP did give us some clues in the short story. I use the short story as canon in this analysis, if you use the movie, you can come to different conclusions.

Your comments are not taken as putting off others. Part of the fun is to discuss and argue back and forth. If we all had the same opinion, this board would die down soon.  :)


Quote
2) We know that after shovedown the boys ate in Dubois,WY. In the 1967 scene in the Siesta motel Ennis says to Jack, "That summer, when we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puck, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois."

So they had to be reasonably near Dubois,WY  after the sheep were trucked off. If they were in the Ten Sleep area after shovedown, it just doesnt make any sense to drive the 175 miles plus to eat in Dubois.  They would eat somewhere close to Aguirre's base of operations in Signal.

Agreed with this, regarding the story. Dubois is too far from Ten Sleep.


Quote
4) We know also from the short story that Brokeback Mountain itself is north of Fremont County,WY.

"Ennis, why are you rootin through them post cards?"
"Scene a Brokeback Mountain."
"Over in Fremont County?"
"No, north a here"   

I take from the story that Ennis is probably shopping in Riverton, WY which is in Fremont County, although I admit that is not made clear in the text. Why would the store owner say "over in Fremont County"? I think that she meant outside the immediate vicinity of the city but still within the same county as Riverton. I noticed in my summers in Montana that a lot of natives to the N. Rockies will refer to rural lands outside the cities as the "county". 

But you're wrong with this. When Ennis buys the postcard at the end of the story, he's in Signal!
At their last meeting, Ennis says, he'd been puttin the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit,

...

The card buying scene from the story:
A few weeks later on the Saturday he threw all Stoutamire's dirty horse blankets into the back of his pickup [...]  he stepped into Higgins gift shop

Then follows the dialog:

"Ennis, why are you rootin through them post cards?"
"Scene a Brokeback Mountain."
"Over in Fremont County?"
"No, north a here"   

So Ennis is clearly not in Fremont Country when this dialog takes place. He is in Signal. And if Signal = Ten Sleep, his line "No, north a here" makes much sense, because directly north of Ten Sleep (="here", where he is right at the moment) are the Big Horn mountains (and there is Brokenback Mountain). And there's the South Brokenback Road, which begins at the end of Ten Sleep.




« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 02:51:32 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Brokeplex, you need to come to our Roundup next June at the foot of Brokenback Mountain in Wyoming!!

Here, read all about it:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,7420.0/all.html

Last time I was there in July, this sign was missing!


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Offline Artiste

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Tnaks Front-Ranger!

What does 1415 mean?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Your comments are not taken as putting off others. Part of the fun is to discuss and argue back and forth. If we all had the same opinion, this board would die down soon.  :)


Agreed with this, regarding the story. Dubois is too far from Ten Sleep.


But you're wrong with this. When Ennis buys the postcard at the end of the story, he's in Signal!
At their last meeting, Ennis says, he'd been puttin the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit,

...

The card buying scene from the story:
A few weeks later on the Saturday he threw all Stoutamire's dirty horse blankets into the back of his pickup [...]  he stepped into Higgins gift shop

Then follows the dialog:

"Ennis, why are you rootin through them post cards?"
"Scene a Brokeback Mountain."
"Over in Fremont County?"
"No, north a here"   

So Ennis is clearly not in Fremont Country when this dialog takes place. He is in Signal. And if Signal = Ten Sleep, his line "No, north a here" makes much sense, because directly north of Ten Sleep (="here", where he is right at the moment) are the Big Horn mountains (and there is Brokenback Mountain). And there's the South Brokenback Road, which begins at the end of Ten Sleep.






Thanks for your reply, I hadn't considered that Ennis might be in Signal when he was buying his postcard. I just looked again at the paragraph in the ss that tells of Ennis going to the gift shop and I don't see any references to the fact that it is in Signal. And even if it were, that still doesn't quite tell me where Signal and Brokeback Mountain would most likely be geographically located. And how do we deal with the fact that the boys ate in Dubois after shovedown? Its just way too long a drive from the Ten Sleep area to Dubois for Dubois to be a realistic spot for them to eat if Signal = Ten Sleep. But it makes sense if Signal was in Fremont County and Brokeback Mountain is just north of Dubois.

Its the reference to Dubois that to me tosses out the idea that Signal is Ten Sleep. Yes, Ten Sleep is near the Big Horn mountains, but nothing in the short story, which I am using as canon tells me that Brokeback Mountain is in the Big Horns. If you use the film as canon, you can come to a different conclusion. I think both are valid in their own ways.

I would love to come to the roundup in the Big Horns in June! I usually am in Texas until after July 4, and then I head up to Montana for 3-4 months, but maybe this next year I can head out early so I can see Brokenback Mountain.

Offline Artiste

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Brokenback Mountain is close to the Grands Tetons?

It makes me sad to think about Grands Tetons!

In another way, it is like that scene in the movie where Jack would like to offer Ennis a ride, after they come down from their jobs top of the mountain!!

Hugs!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Tnaks Front-Ranger!

What does 1415 mean?

Hugs!
I'm not sure. The quadrangle number perhaps? It sounds too low to be the elevation!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Thanks Front-Ranger!

I thought that it (1415) was maybe elevation! If my penpal friend, nearby,  at Grand Tetons would not have been murdered, he would likely know. He was a gay man who lived up there, he showed to visitors wild life, and loved living there. I had photos of moose eating among his horses. But it was said that he was knifed. I do miss his letters which were always cheerful! Sad, I am still today to think of such a lost of a gay man who helped others (other persons, gay or straight)!!

As I said, that is one reason why I find, in the movie, that Jack and Ennis not getting into Jack's truck a sad event too, since I feel that they wanted there and then to continue their friendship as bi or gay men!

You think that Jack offered then Ennis a ride, somehow??

Hugs!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Well the summit of Brokenback is 6,995' so I suppose it could be the elevation...I myself live at 7300' so it's hard to imagine anything in Wyoming being so low!! Even a valley!!

I know you still mourn your friend very much. Try not to hold it against Wyoming. It sounds like he was a lot like Jack. I wish I could have known him.

And as I ride in my own little wagon many miles each day, I wish I was riding with my friend beside me...


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Offline Artiste

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Thanks very much Front-Ranger!

You are right in that I do not hold anything against Wyoming for my Grands Tetons penpal's death! But I do not know if his murderer is in Wyoming or from somewhere else... that remains to be seen if found!!

Since he lived near you, maybe you would get a hold of his sister one day to find out more? May I suggest.

I would have to re-read his letters. I do not know if I kept all his photos; I used to do so. Would he be an Ennis or a Jack?? That I will think about him... sure!! I know that if he was Jack, that he would have offered Ennis a ride, I think am sure about that as he was a real loveable gay man!!

Please explain your thought further: And as I ride in my own little wagon many miles each day, I wish I was riding with my friend beside me...

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Brokenback Mountain is close to the Grands Tetons?

It makes me sad to think about Grands Tetons!

In another way, it is like that scene in the movie where Jack would like to offer Ennis a ride, after they come down from their jobs top of the mountain!!

Hugs!

Well, that is my theory Artiste that Brokeback Mountain and Signal are fairly near to the Tetons but not in the Tetons. There are also well thought out valid theories that Brokeback and Signal are in the Big Horns.

When I use the short story as canon, I can come to no other conclusion than Signal is near to Dubois in the Wind River Range, and Brokeback Mountain is north of Dubois in the Shoshone National Forest - not far from the continental divide.

If you use the movie as canon, then you can come to a different conclusion. Its all fun and reminds me of the early days of Star Wars fandom,with those "heated" discussions we used to have at sci-fi cons over light sabers and light beer  as to whether to use the films or the books as canon for Star Wars trivia.

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Offline brokeplex

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films

Injest are you voting to use the film as canon in the case of Brokeback Mountain?

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Injest are you voting to use the film as canon in the case of Brokeback Mountain?


LOL!! no I was telling you that you have to go by the Star War FILMS for canon.... ;)


Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokeplex, and thanks all !!

Brokeplex, you say: Well, that is my theory Artiste that Brokeback Mountain and Signal are fairly near to the Tetons but not in the Tetons
...

To that, may I say to you brokeplex and to all, that when I saw photos of Grand Tetons where my gay friend did live, which were taken by him,  indeed Ennis and Jack, (you and I, ... all others, and especially gay men), would have enjoyed it there!! You know that those two French words (Grands Tetons) are?? So, maybe it would have been better for Annie to include too that area in her story?
That would have been more pro-gay for me!!

When both Ennis and Jack after coming down with the sheep, why was Jack's truck turned? Is that maybe a sign that Jack wanted to ask Ennis, to offer Ennis a ride??

Hugs!!




Offline Luvlylittlewing

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I'm always drawn to Jack gazing at Ennis in his rear-view mirror; Ennis walking all by himself, and the expression on Jack's face as Ennis is left father and farther behind.  I could be wrong, but I think Ang Lee separated the 2 at this point to prepare us for the sense of sadness, loneliness and longing that will flow through the film from that point on.  If Jack had offered Ennis a ride, IMHO, we would lose that sense of longing and regret.  I suppose Ennis may have dry heaved after Jack dropped him off somewhere, but separating the 2 set the stage for the loneliness to come.  I hope I'm making sense.

Offline Katie77

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Makes a lot of sense littlewing.....and if that was what Ang intended, he sure got it right.......
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Delmardeb

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I think it was pride that stopped Jack from asking Ennis if he could give him a lift. Ennis had already sucker punched him before they came down from the mountain. That must have damaged Jack's ego. Also when Jack offered Ennis a loan, look how Ennis reacted- " I don't need your money, I ain't in the poor
house." Last, when Jack asked Ennis if was going to get a job on Brokeback next summer, Ennis replied that he and Alma were going to get married and he'd get work on the ranch.

My point is that Ennis rejected any offer or idea that Jack presented to him. He probably thought that if he had asked Ennis if he needed a ride, that Ennis would have said no. Who wants to hear no or constantly get rejected by the person that you love?


For how long? As long as we can ride it; ain't no reins on this one.

Offline brokeplex

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LOL!! no I was telling you that you have to go by the Star War FILMS for canon.... ;)



yes, that was the final consensus in the Star Wars community at the time. Because: the books were derived from the films and Lucas is the "author" of the films. Thanks Injest!

Offline brokeplex

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Thanks brokeplex, and thanks all !!

Brokeplex, you say: Well, that is my theory Artiste that Brokeback Mountain and Signal are fairly near to the Tetons but not in the Tetons
...

To that, may I say to you brokeplex and to all, that when I saw photos of Grand Tetons where my gay friend did live, which were taken by him,  indeed Ennis and Jack, (you and I, ... all others, and especially gay men), would have enjoyed it there!! You know that those two French words (Grands Tetons) are?? So, maybe it would have been better for Annie to include too that area in her story?
That would have been more pro-gay for me!!

When both Ennis and Jack after coming down with the sheep, why was Jack's truck turned? Is that maybe a sign that Jack wanted to ask Ennis, to offer Ennis a ride??

Hugs!!





Ha ha, yes, apparently an early lonely French Canadian mountain man / explorer named them because they reminded him of what he was 'missing' in his lonely life, so to speak.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Quote
author=Penthesilea link=topic=15356.msg296661#msg296661 date=1196711226


But of course there's more to it than that. The opening question has bugged me also for a while, combined with the inevitable "What might have been....."
I think one important reason why Jack acted the way he did is given by Ang Lee himself (paraphrasing): they were both cowboys. They didn't talk about their feelings; non-verbal communication is important; and they had pride. What's true for the whole movie is also true for this scene.

I think pride was a crucial factor here. Jack already had taken the punch from Ennis earlier, and was apparently and understandably pi**ed about it. Look at his face when they descent with the sheep.
Then, while standing beside his truck, Jack is all cautious and hesitant. And he makes one last attempt when he asks Ennis whether he's going to do this again next summer. And even after Ennis's negatory answer (which wasn't totally negatory, btw) he half-tries again with "I might be back ... if the army don't get me." He leaves a door open. Ennis at least knows where to find Jack next summer if he wants to.

I think Jack has gone as far as he thought he could without begging.

Heya,

Sorry for jumping into this TOTW late in the game.  But, this early post from Penthesilea back on page one of this thread seemed very accurate to me.  To me the simple answer as to why Jack didn't offer Ennis a ride is that he's angry at Ennis at the moment.  And, yes, I think he probably did feel he'd "gone as far as he thought he could without begging."  That seems like a good way to express it.  And, once Ennis says "I guess I'll see you around, hunh?" I think Jack is just exasperated. 

I think this combined with the more practical explanation having to do with traveling opposite directions resolve this particular question in my mind at least.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokeplex, and thanks all of you!!

All the information here is revealing, really informative!! And I see that in my own life and the persons I did meet in the past and now. And I will not say if I am an Ennis or an Jack!!

To you brokeplex and to all, my I repose this:
[When both Ennis and Jack after coming down with the sheep, why was Jack's truck turned? Is that maybe a sign that Jack wanted to ask Ennis, to offer Ennis a ride??

/i]

Think that might be something?

Hugs!!



Offline oilgun

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Ah yes, but then we wouldn't have had that iconic image of Ennis in Jack's rear-view mirror...
I'm surprised you guys managed to stretch this conversation to five pages after this post.  That iconic image is the only reason for changing the scene.  It was purely cinematic.

Offline brokeplex

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Thanks brokeplex, and thanks all of you!!

All the information here is revealing, really informative!! And I see that in my own life and the persons I did meet in the past and now. And I will not say if I am an Ennis or an Jack!!

To you brokeplex and to all, my I repose this:
[When both Ennis and Jack after coming down with the sheep, why was Jack's truck turned? Is that maybe a sign that Jack wanted to ask Ennis, to offer Ennis a ride??

/i]

Think that might be something?

Hugs!!




Jack had moved his truck out of Aguirre's garage and Ennis and he were trying to get it to start. Sure he wanted to give Ennis a ride, and Ennis wanted a ride. It didn't happen. 

Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokeplex!

You say this: Jack had moved his truck out of Aguirre's garage !

.....................

Brokeplex: How do you know that? Was that mentionned in the movie? Or in the book? Or?

Hugs!

Offline delalluvia

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Heya,

Sorry for jumping into this TOTW late in the game.  But, this early post from Penthesilea back on page one of this thread seemed very accurate to me.  To me the simple answer as to why Jack didn't offer Ennis a ride is that he's angry at Ennis at the moment.  And, yes, I think he probably did feel he'd "gone as far as he thought he could without begging."  That seems like a good way to express it.  And, once Ennis says "I guess I'll see you around, hunh?" I think Jack is just exasperated. 

I think this combined with the more practical explanation having to do with traveling opposite directions resolve this particular question in my mind at least.



Bingo.  Agree.  Chrissie hit it five pages ago.  Jack had already tried to help Ennis and got his chops busted for it.  So much for that.  And they're also going in opposite directions.  Yeah, it's a great iconic shot, but still realistic.  We just saw Ennis for a couple of seconds in the rearview mirror.  For all we know, a couple of blocks later, he turns right to get out of town to hitch.

Offline Artiste

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Why Ennis does not ask Jack for a ride? Because, he re-considers that he is a staight man again or still is??

Can this be asked??


Hugs!

Offline delalluvia

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Why Ennis does not ask Jack for a ride? Because, he re-considers that he is a staight man again or still is??

Can this be asked??


Hugs!

Sure.  Ennis was most certainly trying to distance himself from Jack.  He does this with the 10 foot pole of "Me and Alma is getting married" reminder and what better way to distance himself besides emotionally than with actual physical distance?  No ride, no how.  Ennis is trying to fit himself back into his straight persona mold and it makes him - literally - sick.

Offline Katie77

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Sure.  Ennis was most certainly trying to distance himself from Jack.  He does this with the 10 foot pole of "Me and Alma is getting married" reminder and what better way to distance himself besides emotionally than with actual physical distance?  No ride, no how.  Ennis is trying to fit himself back into his straight persona mold and it makes him - literally - sick.

I am so impressed with the way you find the right words to paint the exact picture of how it is, Delalluvia....

I read that, and saw it all before me, and nodded my head in agreement....
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Front-Ranger

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I agree so completely. I can almost hear Ennis saying to himself, "Now I have paid Jack off..."

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline delalluvia

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I am so impressed with the way you find the right words to paint the exact picture of how it is, Delalluvia....

I read that, and saw it all before me, and nodded my head in agreement....

  ;D  Thanks.

Offline delalluvia

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I agree so completely. I can almost hear Ennis saying to himself, "Now I have paid Jack off..."



And it's sad isn't it?  How much worse can he make Jack feel than to pretend their time on the mountain was nothing special and now back to the real world?

Offline Katie77

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And it's sad isn't it?  How much worse can he make Jack feel than to pretend their time on the mountain was nothing special and now back to the real world?

Thats why the reunion is so brilliant....
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Artiste

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Thanks!

Dell, you sure colour things right with simple words I accept too! But Front-Ranger questions or adds??


Front-Ranger, why do you say: ["Now I have paid Jack off..."

/i]
........................................
Please explain.

So, Ennis, now considering himself an heterosexual again (from heaven to be in hell again??),  refuses Jack since he is angry at Jack who made advances towards him for having sex with him, tempting him into it??
Is that it, in the movie? In the book too? Is that what you mean maybe??

Hugs!

Offline Katie77

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So, Ennis, now considering himself an heterosexual again (from heaven to be in hell again??), 



Please explain......the part you have in brackets......
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Artiste

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Thanks Katie!

Since you ask, you are getting my effort to try to manswer you concerning: So, Ennis, now considering himself an heterosexual again (from heaven to be in hell again??),





....................................

Trying to clarify that, may I say: That Ennis was in peace (thus heaven) with Jack working together, plus amusing themselves, etc.; but, coming down from that to the ordinary world where one has to find another job, that makes it like hell! That is one way that I see that!

Another way is that Ennis was more and more happy as a person, when he worked with Jack since they both had an like unreal world up there (a bit gay as in happy closet) which could be described as a bit of heaven since Jack helped him in many ways and vice versa in their men world, but when he has to come back to the real world down below where it is mainly (or totally for him) he freas an heterosexual one like it could be hell with different men and different women as different thoughts and ways of life, well there are many differences: 1- finding added $ (a job or jobs) needed to marry a woman,  2- changing or rechangingagain his life from being with a man to an unknown world (being with a woman which will be quite a different life), 3- fear of the unknown, 4- one can even add religion as a negative, 5- unwanted possibilities of rejection, 6- all and much more would and will make him unstable in many ways!!

Jack and Ennis had fought even physically for love before they left, but both sad toothey also started hitting and being hurtful now at what was to come, just before coming down then. Once, at the truck, he helped Jack start Jack's truck, which shows to me that he wanted to continue to help and be helped by Jack, but the real world of fears of an heterosexual one starting masked each!! Even if each wanted to other in order to be love and to love... for that to continue!! That was to me... in the movie then.

What do you think?

Hugs!
P.S.Answer mine too now?

Offline HerrKaiser

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With all the debate over where Signal actually is, has anyone thought about an adventure trip to WY that could be called "Searching for Brokeback"?

I tend to lean toward the logic of this hallowed place being near Dubois based on the analysis of brokeplex. In spite of my lack of much interest in the short story vs the film, the geographical logic makes sense. Could it possilby be that the American pronunciation of Dubois being Du boys, or two boys if you take some language liberties, was on purpose?

Seems to me a search for the right place would be a fun scavenger hunt...with ennis as the prize. In fact, I may just head to Dubois myself.

Offline brokeplex

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With all the debate over where Signal actually is, has anyone thought about an adventure trip to WY that could be called "Searching for Brokeback"?

I tend to lean toward the logic of this hallowed place being near Dubois based on the analysis of brokeplex. In spite of my lack of much interest in the short story vs the film, the geographical logic makes sense. Could it possilby be that the American pronunciation of Dubois being Du boys, or two boys if you take some language liberties, was on purpose?

Seems to me a search for the right place would be a fun scavenger hunt...with ennis as the prize. In fact, I may just head to Dubois myself.

yep, Herr Kaiser they pronounce it "DOO - BOYZ" in Dubois!

I am delighted to read your post and your interest in a round up in the area. Several men I know here in the DFW area expressed to me an interest in a Brokie type of round up in the Dubois area before I went north to Montana this July. On my way back home from Missoula in Sept, I took a very long detour over to Fremont County WY. I drove along the Wind River past Riverton all the way to Dubois. I loved the landscape. Dubois is a charming community with friendly folks eager to host tourists. Some tourists come to the area for the real cowboy experience, Dubois hosts the National Big Horn Sheep Interpretive Center. Dubois is also one of the gateways to the Grand Teton National Park.

The Dubois area has lots of rentals, guest ranches, cabins, and motels. I plan to speak with a Fremont Co, based mountain guide who has expressed some interest in our proposed gathering. We will discuss possible campsites towards the North or West of Dubois. My goal is for round up participants to have a close up experience on a mountain in a sheepherding area similar to what we read about Ennis and Jack in "Brokeback Mountain".

I will let the fellow over in Dallas who is coordinating this for us know of your possible interest. The proposed round up would be in late July early Aug 2008, just the time that Texans are ready get out of the everyday 100 degree heat Texas produces. Send me a private message with your preferred method of contact. I hope that you will be able to attend.




Offline delalluvia

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I've been to Dubois, too.  It was the jumping off point - trailhead - for the years of wilderness hiking I went on back when.

It's probably grown since I was last there.  Last time I was there, the whole town shut down to go to someone's funeral.

Yes, it is Du BOYZ.  ;D

Offline brokeplex

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What I really loved about Dubois is how friendly everyone was. It not your typical tourist oriented town with the, "lets take their money and run", attitude towards visitors. People I spoke with seemed genuinely interested in getting to know me.

Offline delalluvia

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What I really loved about Dubois is how friendly everyone was. It not your typical tourist oriented town with the, "lets take their money and run", attitude towards visitors. People I spoke with seemed genuinely interested in getting to know me.

Not to besmirch the good people of Dubois, but since I am of Hispanic descent, let's just say that I was glad to be with a large group of not-Hispanic friends while I was there.  Like I said, maybe things have changed...

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Not to besmirch the good people of Dubois, but since I am of Hispanic descent, let's just say that I was glad to be with a large group of not-Hispanic friends while I was there.  Like I said, maybe things have changed...


but they haven't changed all that much??

I keep trying to get that across to people. Things in the middle of the country change a LOT slower than on the coasts.

Offline delalluvia

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but they haven't changed all that much??

I keep trying to get that across to people. Things in the middle of the country change a LOT slower than on the coasts.

Excellent point.  I don't know.  I haven't been back to that neck of the woods in sometime.

Offline Front-Ranger

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With all the debate over where Signal actually is, has anyone thought about an adventure trip to WY that could be called "Searching for Brokeback"?

I tend to lean toward the logic of this hallowed place being near Dubois based on the analysis of brokeplex. In spite of my lack of much interest in the short story vs the film, the geographical logic makes sense. Could it possilby be that the American pronunciation of Dubois being Du boys, or two boys if you take some language liberties, was on purpose?

Seems to me a search for the right place would be a fun scavenger hunt...with ennis as the prize. In fact, I may just head to Dubois myself.

This is already in the works. In fact, 40 people are already signed up for the upcoming Brokeback Roundup June 1-8 in the Big Horn Mountains of Wyoming, with side trips to the Tetons, Yellowstone, Lightning Flat, and possibly Riverton and Sheridan. We've booked a lodge at the very foot of Brokenback Mountain.

Get all the details here as well as a link to the registration form:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/board,68.0.html
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Great that you have that link Front-Ranger! I envy all of you!!

Regarding Dubois, it is a French word: du meaning of; bois is wood!! Guess then that is was an wooded area? The French-Canadiens there to start it up, as many were lumberjacks like one of my grand-papa?

And that reminds me, that if Aguiire was a French name, then maybe he would have been French-Canadien descent? And, therefore, Aguirre would be more acceptable, as much lenient to gay, bi or other men (straights like lumberjacks stuck in the woods) who played together as Jack and Ennis did up their during their work time on Brokeback Mountain!! ??

Considering that openness of Aguirre, he  would therefore be out of the way if Jack would offer a ride to Ennis after when they got down the mountain!! ?? It seems to me.

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all!!

Hugs!!


Offline Front-Ranger

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I believe Aguirre is a Spanish or Basque name and Aguirre was at least partially Basque, Artiste. I am going to write more about Aguirre in this topic which is devoted to that subject:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15379.0/all.html

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline brokeplex

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Not to besmirch the good people of Dubois, but since I am of Hispanic descent, let's just say that I was glad to be with a large group of not-Hispanic friends while I was there.  Like I said, maybe things have changed...

what happened while you were there?

Offline brokeplex

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This is already in the works. In fact, 40 people are already signed up for the upcoming Brokeback Roundup June 1-8 in the Big Horn Mountains of Wyoming, with side trips to the Tetons, Yellowstone, Lightning Flat, and possibly Riverton and Sheridan. We've booked a lodge at the very foot of Brokenback Mountain.

Get all the details here as well as a link to the registration form:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/board,68.0.html

That is wonderful and I hope for a very high turnout in June for the Ten Sleep event!

Many of us prefer to vacation in late July or early Aug, so we are organizing a complimentary, not competing, roundup in the Dubois area at that time. Dubois is near the Tetons and Jackson, so that works out for us as well. Many of us plan to then go up to Calgary for a pilgrimage afterwards. Best of luck in Ten Sleep! 

Offline delalluvia

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what happened while you were there?

Let's just say they weren't very friendly, very welcoming nor interested in talking to me.

Offline brokeplex

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Let's just say they weren't very friendly, very welcoming nor interested in talking to me.

That truly is unfortunate. I really hate it when people are inhospitable to strangers.

 The folks in Dubois sure have no problems being friendly to gay men. I am about as gay as a box of birds, and if they couldn't tell I was gay the minute I stepped out of my truck, they damned sure knew it when I explained to the folks I talked with that my purpose in Dubois was to scout for locations for a round up for a group of gays from Texas. They practically fell over themselves showing me to cabins and guest ranches in the area. One fellow who took me scouting for locations in his Land Rover looked just like Randy Quaid as Joe Aguirre! I would have lost it and laughed if he had an accent like Joe's, but he sounded like a Canadian so I held back my laughter. 

Offline Ellemeno

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In a parallel universe.


(Cinematography by Rodrigo Prieto.  Artification by BetterMostian Toast.)


Offline Front-Ranger

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That is wonderful and I hope for a very high turnout in June for the Ten Sleep event!

Many of us prefer to vacation in late July or early Aug, so we are organizing a complimentary, not competing, roundup in the Dubois area at that time. Dubois is near the Tetons and Jackson, so that works out for us as well. Many of us plan to then go up to Calgary for a pilgrimage afterwards. Best of luck in Ten Sleep! 

And best of luck to you too...I had the wonderful opportunity to go to Devil's Tower and Brokenback in mid-July and it was heavenly! I also went to Alberta at the end of July thanks to the organizers of the Alberta Pilgrimage event. That was a once-in-a-lifetime experience!

It might be helpful if you call your events something other than "Roundup" and "pilgrimage" to avoid confusion with these already-established events. (See the logo of the Roundup below)


"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Hi to all here!!

After seeing ten minutes ago a film about Sept.11th horror, I feel that Ennis was in such state of mind that he could not ask directly Jack for such a ride! And likewise for Jack!

After that infamous Setp. 11th, I felt numb and still do a lot... since even if I had made great friends in New York City since I had my art studio there for years previous to that, I have not gotten a reply to see if they are still alive...after that then and even to-day, no replies from any, unfortunately!! All always used to reply as we gladly communicated at times! Such event of dire time like Sept.11th are unforgettable to us all!!

Likewise, the sudden (before it's time descent of Ennis and Jack down from the mountain... since their jobs were too quickly finished create such a numbness in each and how they communicate now with dire thoughts and ways...like  being too careful, in order not to get hurt again!!

The thoughts of all here on Bettermost are most interesting on this question: Why didn't Jack offer Ennis a ride when they got down the mountain? Please accept too that I think that your recent comments, I find are very liked! (and I intend to come back to that later, if I may too)!! And maybe this numbness idea now can also be considered?

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!! May the Bettermost spirit keep on and be lshared love!!

Hugs!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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In a parallel universe.


(Cinematography by Rodrigo Prieto.  Artification by BetterMostian Toast.)


Hey Elle!

Interesting image to introduce here. 

:)



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Likewise, the sudden (before it's time descent of Ennis and Jack down from the mountain... since their jobs were too quickly finished create such a numbness in each and how they communicate now with dire thoughts and ways...like  being too careful, in order not to get hurt again!!


...........

Maybe? What do you think?


Hugs!!