Author Topic: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?  (Read 63990 times)

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2007, 11:09:45 am »
Oh man, if we get on the subject again about the tragic oscar loss that Ledger should have won...I'll miss my flight in a few hours!!!  :)

but, regarding Aguirre, I think there is no way as suggested earlier that when he sent the men to the mountain..."why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that (having sex)?" This would suggest that the military, sports teams, etc etc would be an expected venue for male sexual activity. totally not the case.

And Aguirre really didn't take umbrage anyway. It was a noteable part of the film, for me, that Aguirre did not rage or take obvious offense at what he saw. It seems safe to say that in 1963 in that area of the world homosexuality was very much in the closet for reasons of what happened to the murdered man Ennis' father forced him to view. Yet, Aguirre basically had a 'holy shit' look on his face and essentially let it go. A year later he reasonably calmly told Jack to get lost, but his handling of the situation was far less mean and aggressive than one would have expected. In fact, his reaction and action was almost as if he was aware of such happening before and responded with a 'not this again' attitude.

And to me this was ironic because it was not the attitude that led to the man in the ditch or, later, Jack (either real or flashback).

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2007, 11:30:55 am »
Good points. I have hoped that people would look at Aguirre as a hard pressed businessman, not just a homophobe. He was disappointed in Twists performance as a sheepherder, not in Twist's liaison with Delmar.

I love Jack, but he sure had a helluva lot of cheek trying to use Aguirre as a "dating service" - when he tried find out the location of Delmar from Joe.

moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2007, 12:55:11 pm »
but, regarding Aguirre, I think there is no way as suggested earlier that when he sent the men to the mountain..."why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that (having sex)?" This would suggest that the military, sports teams, etc etc would be an expected venue for male sexual activity. totally not the case.
Annie Proulx herself reported that old ranch hands informed her that men would sometimes be assigned herding jobs with other men precisely so that they could keep each other company...implying that they sometimes used one another for sexual release. It has simply been pointed out in this thread (and not by me) that Aguirre possibly had the same motivation. I myself don't see this because of Aguirre's obvious displeasure at seeing Ennis and Jack together in a physical way.

Slightly off-topic, but I for one do expect there is a fair amount of man-on-man sex in the military, sports teams, etc,...we just don't usually hear about it.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2007, 01:06:26 pm »
I myself don't see this because of Aguirre's obvious displeasure at seeing Ennis and Jack together in a physical way.

Aguirre always looks so sour it's hard to tell when he's actually displeased. But his expression certainly doesn't seem to say, "Alright! Things are going just the way I'd hoped!"

but, regarding Aguirre, I think there is no way as suggested earlier that when he sent the men to the mountain..."why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that (having sex)?" This would suggest that the military, sports teams, etc etc would be an expected venue for male sexual activity. totally not the case.

Whether or not that is the case, it's a different situation. Members of sports teams, and even the military, are not as isolated as sheepherders would be.

By the way, totally OT, but why do we call them "sheep herders" or "sheepherders" rather than "shepherds"?






Offline Fran

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2007, 01:33:59 pm »
To his credit, Joe Aguirre did wait until Ennis had ridden back to the sheep before he rode up to tell Jack about Uncle Harold. It seems to me that Joe didn't want to surprise Jack and Ennis or, for that matter, confront them, which he easily could have done had he not waited. 

Joe's only thinking about his sheep.  When he refused to hire Jack for a third summer, it's because he and Ennis screwed up:  Joe ended up with some sheep that clearly weren't his, and the count wasn't what Joe expected it to be.  Joe had let Jack and Ennis know that he was dissatisfied with their job performance after the sheep were brought down from the mountain.  Joe was probably amazed that Jack could even imagine that he'd rehire him.  To me, Joe seems to be thinking, Jack, do you think I'd be so stupid as to hire you again?  Not on your life.  For Joe, Jack's question about Ennis was the last straw.  Only then did Joe bring up the "stemming the rose" part.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2007, 01:40:23 pm »


By the way, totally OT, but why do we call them "sheep herders" or "sheepherders" rather than "shepherds"?



I think that "shepherd" somehow sounds too old-fashioned (or something like that).  **But** I do think that word is particularly important to recognize - as being what Ennis and Jack actually are in '63 - to the discussions of BBM and religious symbolism (even very loose religious symbolism).

I also think the shepherd reference feels very classical and pastoral. Maybe it's also another aspect of the famous old "classical allusions" topic. If Brokeback is a kind of Eden or Paradise Lost in a religious sense, it's also a Golden Age (or phase) for Ennis and Jack in a more classical sense... in both instances the metaphor is of an ideal place or time that cannot be accessed again once it's been exited. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 01:53:30 am by atz75 »
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2007, 08:00:03 pm »
May Aguirre (as a portrait) help Ennisses and Jacks... as in the movie, somehow, all over the world to-day!!

In wondrous ways we can help and be helped, as straights, as bi, as gays, as others!! Hopefully, for humanity!

I think that Aguirre represents an somewhat good part somehow about humanity in the BM movie, since he did give Ennis and Jack jobs there and then. And Aguirre continued to help them till he could, even if what he saw from afar like the playing, kiss and hugs between Ennis and Jack was thruth!! He did not kill them,
thanks goodness!!

What else can one say about Aguirre's humanity?

Hugs!!

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and gay Holidays to all on Bettermost and on Earth!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2007, 12:49:49 am »
I think that shepherd somehow sounds too old-fashioned (or something like that).  **But** I do think that word is particularly important to recognize - as being what Ennis and Jack actually are in '63 - to the discussions of BBM and religious symbolism (even very loose religious symbolism).

I also think the shepherd reference feels very classical and pastoral. Maybe it's also another aspect of the famous old "classical allusions" topic. If Brokeback is a kind of Eden or Paradise Lost in a religious sense, it's also a Golden Age (or phase) for Ennis and Jack in a more classical sense... in both instances the metaphor is of an ideal place or time that cannot be accessed again once it's been exited. 

good point about the classical allusions, in "Reading Brokeback Mountain" ed. Jim Stacy, the essay "Arcadia and the Passionate Shepherds of Brokeback Mountain" by Henry Alley explores this comparison. I am delighted I bought the book on amazon. someone here on bettermost alerted me to the book. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2007, 11:18:00 am »
Wow, I sure like the comments here!!

As you HeirKaiser say: It was a noteable part of the film, for me, that Aguirre did not rage or take obvious offense at what he saw. It seems safe to say that in 1963 in that area of the world homosexuality was very much in the closet for reasons of what happened to the murdered man Ennis' father forced him to view. Yet, Aguirre basically had a 'holy shit' look on his face and essentially let it go. A year later he reasonably calmly told Jack to get lost, but his handling of the situation was far less mean and aggressive than one would have expected.
...........

May I ask if you HeirKaiser or any others here on Bettermost, think those Aguirre actions and re-actions are so presented in the film, because the one actor who played him felt that his role should be so done?? Or it was the producer, director, script writors, others, who told him to act that in those ways??  Did Annie show such as an Aguirre character?

....
Hugs!!
Merry Gay times to all and Merry Christmas too plus Great Merry Holidays!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2007, 12:48:59 pm »
Wow, I sure like the comments here!!

May I ask if you HeirKaiser or any others here on Bettermost, think those Aguirre actions and re-actions are so presented in the film, because the one actor who played him felt that his role should be so done?? Or it was the producer, director, script writors, others, who told him to act that in those ways??  Did Annie show such as an Aguirre character?

....
Hugs!!
Merry Gay times to all and Merry Christmas too plus Great Merry Holidays!!

I see Randy Quaid as perfect for the role of Joe Aguirre, and that is one of the reasons that Quaid's supporting role in the film is so important to me. Randy Quaid has the ability to look gruff and slightly exasperated and pained at the same time. So, to me it was a combination of Quaid fitting perfectly into a role that seemingly was made for him. I don't know if AP had anyone in mind when she sketched the Joe Aguirre character, I think that she met with some ranch owners and foremen and talked about the sheep ranching industry and what is was like in the 1960's. I always anticipate that type of verisimilitude from AP. Now when Ossana and McMurtry completed their sp, they probably had Quaid in mind. Quaid has worked with McMurtry before. The first movie I saw Quaid in was Peter Bogdanovich's "Last Picture Show", based on a McMurtry story. For a look at a dying oil bust town in Texas in the 1950's, go watch it. I grew up with some of the analogs to some of the characters in that movie.