Author Topic: TOTW 19/07: Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were af  (Read 30771 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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Happy Monday BetterMost folks  :)


this week's topic was suggested by our mountain-climbing, travel-reporting, metal-searching and BBQ-cooking Rocky Mountain resident, FRont-Ranger (Lee). Thank you Lee for the suggestion  :-*!


Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were after 20 years with Ennis?


They knew each other for such a long time. Jack knew about Ennis's fears and he knew they were not baseless. He also knew it was dangerous to pursue romance in Childress. Why did he do it?





moremojo

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Jack wanted regular intimacy with the man he loved from the moment he fell in love. The irregular get-togethers out in the middle of nowhere were just crumbs from the feast he felt he was missing out on. I do believe Jack was basically homosexual, but nonetheless, as someone who was in love, I felt he used the Mexico trips and Randall as Ennis substitutes. Randall was probably less of a romance than just another variant of the fishing trips--settling for second best when what Jack really wanted was always being deferred (and probably always would be).

Offline delalluvia

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Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were after 20 years with Ennis?

Because Jack had better self-esteem than Ennis.  Jack was never happy with the relationship the way it was and he was never going to be happy with it like that.  But he was in love.  People in love put up with shit relationships for long periods of time.  Doesn't mean he liked the way things were or thought he didn't deserve more.  Sooner or later, there was bound to be a blowup.  For Jack it took 20 years.  Perhaps if they were able to see each other a bit more, it would've taken less time for the blowup to happen. 

Quote
They knew each other for such a long time. Jack knew about Ennis's fears and he knew they were not baseless. He also knew it was dangerous to pursue romance in Childress. Why did he do it?

Well, that's assuming Jack was murdered.  If you don't think Jack was murdered, then this question doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 12:28:47 am by delalluvia »

Offline Penthesilea

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He also knew it was dangerous to pursue romance in Childress.

Well, that's assuming Jack was murdered.  If you don't think Jack was murdered, then this question doesn't make sense.


I think I have to respectully disagree. If you think Jack was not murdered, it still doesn't make Childress a safe haven for gay men. Seeking sex or romance in his own neighbourhood was still potentially dangerous.

Offline delalluvia

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Well, that's assuming Jack was murdered.  If you don't think Jack was murdered, then this question doesn't make sense.

I think I have to respectully disagree. If you think Jack was not murdered, it still doesn't make Childress a safe haven for gay men. Seeking sex or romance in his own neighbourhood was still potentially dangerous.

It doesn't make sense to single out Childress or Jack for that matter.  We have no idea - per the movie - what Childress is like.  Even if you believe Jack was murdered, did Lureen actually say where Jack was murdered?  I think she said it was on a 'backroad' somewhere.  That doesn't necessarily mean Childress or the environs around.  Considering how much Jack traveled, it could have easily been in Oklahoma or New Mexico or Colorado.  Also, Earl was murdered in Wyoming.  You could easily change the sentence or include Ennis in it - "Ennis knew it was dangerous to pursue romance in Wyoming/Riverton, why did he do it?"

And the answer?  Well, because people do.  Doesn't matter where they are.  Even Ennis took that chance - heck, he even went to a motel with a man in his own hometown knowing the danger.

See what I mean?  [shrug]

Offline Ellemeno

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I'm picturing Jack in the "It could be like this..." scene, saying "TWENTY fuckin years?"  I think he's we're lucky he didn't know how long it was going to drag on, he might not have pursued it.

Also, why didn't he learn to be happy with it?  Part of the answer:

A Twist of Bitch (:50)
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unj5uFrdj-4[/youtube]

pnwDUDE

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Quote
They knew each other for such a long time. Jack knew about Ennis's fears and he knew they were not baseless.

They did not 'know' each other for a long time. Out of the couple of months they were herdin', it was a matter of weeks that they were partnered up on Brokeback. After that, it was perhaps two weeks a year. Outta 19 years that is 38 weeks. Them being men, of that 38 weeks, I doubt any of it was discussing fears, feelings, etc. Time together. Riding, making camp, and making love the way two men like them do.
Ennis, based on his experience with his dad seeing Rich and what them guys did to him, provided an explanation why he and Jack couldn't be together, but that was about it. Don't reckon' Jack could relate to much of that, having not seen it.

Quote
He also knew it was dangerous to pursue romance in Childress. Why did he do it?

IMO, Randall was lookin' to get off and not romantically. Jack, at 19, fell in love with Ennis then they took the plunge--something which is rare (even today) among homo men. He wanted desperatley to get that which he pretty much resigned himself (on that bench outside the dance) he wasn't gonna ever have with Ennis.
A young guy can find sex and get off with another guy in Childress, or Riverton, for that matter. The danger for Jack wasn't the pursuit of romance. It was thinking the easy (yet very complex) connection he had with Ennis was to be had anywhere other than on Brokeback Mountain.

Gut-punched love doesn't strike a whole lot of us. When it does, odds are it's hetro yungins'. Easy for them to marry up and proceed with life--kids and stuff. When this occurs between two men, the layers are/were insurmountable in J & E's time, and even today. It's not so much the crowbar that's worrysome. Statistics prove this. It's what is in our heads. Fearing getting beat up or killed, like what Ennis truly believed, is what mattered and it doesn't matter what really happened to Jack hence the vaugness at the hands of Proulx and Ang. 

I don't think Jack would have it any easier today (we know what he likes, fell in love with) seeking that romance which he experienced on that mountain, in Childress, San Fransisco or New York City, for that matter. Guys like him and Ennis, who don't want nothing to do with what is considered 'gay' today, find it easier to just get married, have kids, and perhaps prowl airport restrooms or worse to fullfill the physical aspect of that which they can't have. The longing and desire is there for that 'true' love, and while the bashings and killings are relegated to history or hype, little has changed for these type of guys.

Certainly can't wonder why Jack couldn't be happy with what he had much less then we can wonder why our neighor can't be happy with what he has.....................

Brad

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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       I don't think it was in Jack's nature, to be satisfied with the status quo.  He needed to be
disatisfied in order to get out of Lightning Flat.  He needed to be dissatisfied in order to leave
Signal and head to Texas.  He needed dissatisfaction with the situation he found himself in.  Working the rodeo circuit.  In order to find and Marry Lureen.
       He needed once again to be dissatisfied, with his marriage to Lureen, and missing Ennis,
in order to make him send the card to Ennis.  He was always the one from the very beginning,
wanting more.



     Beautiful mind

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Tell you what, I think one of the differences between the film and the story is that I think in the story Jack had more or less learned to be content--if not happy--with the arrangement as it was. At any rate, this is my impression--that he has learned to live with, or accommodated himself better to, the situation.

I don't think the story gives us as much of Jack's life in Texas as the film does. The story doesn't really give us Jack's reaction after Ennis's divorce--only that he drove to Wyoming "for nothing." We don't see him encounter the "ranch neighbor." The story gives me the impression that he continues to go back to Wyoming for 20 years for the emotional fulfillment he finds with Ennis, and meanwhile he takes care of his physical needs back home in Texas as he's able to, with trips to Mexico. He has developed a way to accommodate himself to the reality of their situation. It's only after Ennis holds out on him for a week that he wasn't going to be able to get together in November, plus threatens Jack for taking care of those same physical needs, that Jack loses his temper and points out that once he had a better idea.

The story tells us that after the confrontation, they torqued things back almost to where they had been. That also suggests to me that if Jack had not died shortly thereafter, he would have continued to make those trips to Wyoming indefinitely.

Just my two cents. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

moremojo

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The story tells us that after the confrontation, they torqued things back almost to where they had been. That also suggests to me that if Jack had not died shortly thereafter, he would have continued to make those trips to Wyoming indefinitely.
Quite possibly, but we learn from Jack's father that Jack began talking of bringing the ranch foreman back to Lightning Flat, as he had formerly spoken of bringing Ennis back there. Of course, we know nothing ever came of that, but the fact that Jack talked of both these scenarios suggests a continued desire to cohabitate with a male lover.

Offline Front-Ranger

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It doesn't make sense to single out Childress or Jack for that matter.  We have no idea - per the movie - what Childress is like. 

I think the scene where two geezers call Jack a "pissant" in front of his own wife was meant to give us an idea about Childress, plus the comments LaShawn made. But you have a good point--it was dangerous for Jack to engage in his rightful pursuit of happiness anywhere at that time--even in Mexico!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Quite possibly, but we learn from Jack's father that Jack began talking of bringing the ranch foreman back to Lightning Flat, as he had formerly spoken of bringing Ennis back there. Of course, we know nothing ever came of that, but the fact that Jack talked of both these scenarios suggests a continued desire to cohabitate with a male lover.

Sure enough, but we have no way of knowing whether anything more would have come of that than came of his talk of bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat. And I'm skeptical.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline jstephens9

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I think in some ways Jack did learn how to be happy with the way things were with Ennis. He wished deep in his mind that his dreams of what things could be like with Ennis could happen, but on the surface I think he had given up long before on that ever truly happening. I think he was very aware of that after the divorce when he went to see Ennis and things ended up not being what he was visualizing in his head. I agree with Jeff that the trips to Wyoming would have continued on forever. He was in love with Ennis in a way that he was not going to find with anyone else. He had learned to be somewhat satisfied in the fact that he did get to see and spend time with Ennis. Of course he longed for more and I believe he did try to see that in others, but it just wasn't going to be found. As far as Randall goes, it may have been that Jack was trying to make him a substitute for Ennis in his head. He may have said that to his father, but we know who was in Jack's mind - Ennis. Jack may have been trying to fool himself, but he would have been back on the mountain in November and every time after that. Randall was no more than the guy in the alley in Mexico.

Offline Front-Ranger

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       I don't think it was in Jack's nature, to be satisfied with the status quo.  He needed to be
disatisfied in order to get out of Lightning Flat.  He needed to be dissatisfied in order to leave
Signal and head to Texas.  He needed dissatisfaction with the situation he found himself in.  Working the rodeo circuit.  In order to find and Marry Lureen.
       He needed once again to be dissatisfied, with his marriage to Lureen, and missing Ennis,
in order to make him send the card to Ennis.  He was always the one from the very beginning,
wanting more.
I think you are on to something, Janice! It wasn't a matter of having insatiable desires (or was it?) Jack simply had to have more of everything! Perhaps it was something to do with growing up in that godforesaken corner of the state that is one of the darkest places in North America, no towns or bright lights nearby. Nothing but a narrow washboardy road leading away in a zigzag path... Thank you Janice and Jeff Wrangler, and Scott, Jack, Brad, and Clarissa for your thoughts. This really helps solve, or at least quiet, the conundrum that was beating in my brain!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline myprivatejack

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Hi¡ First of all,I must introduce myself;I´m a new member and perhaps the only who is not American,but from Barcelona.I hope you accept me¡ :laugh:
Answering to the question  of the topic: simply because he was in love.He needed to be with Ennis,to breath with Ennis breath,to live with,for and because of him...That´s all. But we must add the inconformism that  was a very special feature of his way of being;Jack was the movement,the air,Ennis the estatic,the earth.For Jack, living was fighting for what he wanted,never stopping to look for it;for Ennis,everything happenned because it must happen-his famous "If you can´t fix it,you´ve got to stand it"-and there was nothing he could do to change it. :(
For Jack having  this sweet life together would be a kind of liberation,sure.But for Ennis would be sooner or later to deepen in his fears and doubts,he would lve in a constant negation of himself and their relationship,as ever.I don´t know if their living together would be so idilic as Jack thought.But this is perhaps another thread...
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
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Offline jstephens9

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Hi¡ First of all,I must introduce myself;I´m a new member and perhaps the only who is not American,but from Barcelona.I hope you accept me¡ :laugh:

Hey and welcome to BetterMost myprivatejack!!! There are many people who are members here that are not American so you should feel right at home. This is a very accepting place.

Jack

Offline Penthesilea

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Hi¡ First of all,I must introduce myself;I´m a new member and perhaps the only who is not American,but from Barcelona.I hope you accept me¡ :laugh:


Hi myprivatejack
welcome to BetterMost! We're glad to have you here. We have many members from outside the US and quite a few who speak English only as a second language, so don't worry about it.

We have a thread where new members can introduce themselves and share as much or few as they want. It's here: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,31.0.html
You're invited to introduce yourself there as well, but only if you want, it's voluntarily.

Offline brokeplex

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How difficult would it have been for Jack to live as gay man in that period in small town Texas? Could he have left Lureen? Could he realistically have lived in Texas or moved to Wyoming to be near Ennis. These are the questions that haunt me. I was a young man in Texas in the 1970's, but I moved away from the small town I grew up in to attend college in a bigger city. I discovered gay life there. But I wonder what options were open to a Jack Twist in the 1970's and early 1980's?

Offline Artiste

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Good question! Like life, no one can know the answer?

Relationships are rare as reality is between two individuals as a couple!

Relationships... is not only about sex (even if that mutual sex can help!!), as there is spiritual connexion too that Ennis and Jack became to know with each other being together at times: (in too rare possible times!!

Mutual caring as with them can be helpful, but social non-fears (hopeful for life) and fears (being killed because you are  gay man/men) were too still crystals to both men. .. which both could not disolve and solve. Too scary, unfortunately most times were each of their lives, even together!!

Religious, social, cultural, anti-gay laws, etc., and even persons like their wives as well as potential murderers of gay men, as that and more did not help them free themselves and become a real couple in public nor in private, beyond the Brokeback Mountain (and note that Brokeback was Brokenback); even on Brokeback Mountain as somewhat a heaven as a canopy or a tent, not all their cares were sufficient for each and together, since others like Aguirre looked at them creating a turbulence in their lives even then.

Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were after Brokeback Mountain? Isn't love an advancing thing?? Singularly and as a couple?? Can we wish that Jack had settled down with Ennis, yes we can be wishful but fear of danger was too great for him as well as for Ennis!!
No one can know the answer to a good relationship, at least Ennis and Jack tried their own way, thank goodness!! They were trying in moments d'occassions; yes, as occassional times!! Even among straights couples (married man and woman), that is so too, most often as occassional rare great times??!!

At least, Jack had as Ennis did too, some mutual joys as blessings being with Ennis on earth as a bit of heaven!!

Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were after Brokeback Mountain? We all wonder...
and hope for thruth and life??  Does this make sense?? Maybe?

Hugs!!

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas  and Gay Holidays to all here on Bettermost and all over the wonderful world, as well as Ennisses and Jacks in gay heaven!!




Scott6373

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As much as people love to almost deify these two men, and hate any insinuation that they are less than the heroes our collective memories recall, the fact is that Jack was a very selfish boy and man.  It effected his family, his relationship with Ennis and ultimately himself.  He couldn't accept the way things were because they were not the the way he wanted them to be.  I personally am of the belief that when he left Ennis that day in May, he left Ennis for good, but we will never know the answer to that one, but if that is the case, then in the end, it was Jack who made the most emotional progress.

moremojo

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Jack and Ennis in the original story are distinctly less "heroic" than they might seem in the film, and even in the film they come across as seriously flawed individuals. It is a measure of Proulx's and the filmmakers' achievement that we come to deeply love and grieve for such characters, despite their less than admirable traits.

I don't see Jack's desire for cohabitation with the man he loves to be selfish. I see it as a natural (for him) impulse to build upon the feelings he has, and to honor the very special and rare connection he has made. Jack is more self-aware than Ennis, and realizes the urgency to seize the moment. This sense of urgency probably propels Jack into much of the behavior that can strike one as selfish. As Ennis himself comes to realize, time was indeed of the essence, and did after all run out for both of them.

Offline Katie77

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Why couldn't he learn to just be happy with things as they were?????

Because he loved Ennis.....and he wanted more than what he had of him....

If he had been selfish or even manipulative, he would have given Ennis an ultimatum to either come with him, or leave him.......he didn't....he hung in there, hoping that one day Ennis would be with him and they could have the far better life that he pictured them both having.......



Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Artiste

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Thanks to all!! Very informative!!

I think that both Ennis and Jack made emotional progress, (to use your expression Scott), but in different times... unfortunately!! How can two individuals make the very same progress at the same time?? Any gay or straight or otherwise couples out there, can describe if that is your glory??

As an example, with my last partner (whom I considered my lover in some ways), we made progress at different times, and some were nearly the same minutes (but minutes only I accent): like sex and non-sex, hugs, quieteness, too rare talks (since men do not really talk!! ??), etc.; even if we were together half of the weeks of each months... for a few years!

Concerning liberation, I feel that both Ennis and Jack did that to certain degrees I guess, but unfortunately at different times!!

At the start, when I wanted him (my last partner), I got that he was interested in someone else. So like Jack in the BM movie and Annie's story, I kept communicating with him. It did pay off in some ways. He saw that I was what he needed, he once told me early on! When he liberated himself, I closed; and there were vice versas too!! Guess maybe we could learn more from females, dare I ask since they think more about romance??

So Jack could not learn to be just happy the things as they were, so what, I say since one must go on trying to be HAPPY?? Should I say in being gay??

And brokeplex, you have fortunately given us some of your examples too with your Enniss' or Jacks', which has helped me a lot!! Thanks!

Hugs!!


Merry Gay Christmas to all on Bettermost and on earth with Great Holidays!!

Offline delalluvia

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Quote
As much as people love to almost deify these two men, and hate any insinuation that they are less than the heroes our collective memories recall, the fact is that Jack was a very selfish boy and man.  It effected his family, his relationship with Ennis and ultimately himself.  He couldn't accept the way things were because they were not the the way he wanted them to be.  I personally am of the belief that when he left Ennis that day in May, he left Ennis for good, but we will never know the answer to that one, but if that is the case, then in the end, it was Jack who made the most emotional progress.

Oh, I don't think anyone really idolizes and puts Ennis and Jack up on pedestals as any kind of hero.  They were all too human.  Both were cheats and liars.  Ennis was a particularly bad father and husband.  Jack used prostitutes.

Some people may romanticize them, but I don't think it's hero-worship.

Offline Katie77

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Oh, I don't think anyone really idolizes and puts Ennis and Jack up on pedestals as any kind of hero.  They were all too human.  Both were cheats and liars.  Ennis was a particularly bad father and husband.  Jack used prostitutes.

Some people may romanticize them, but I don't think it's hero-worship.

Thats right delalluvia, heros they were NOT......

They were young men caught up in "a goddamm bitch of an unsatisfactory situation"....and we watch how they deal with it.....plenty of mistakes thats for sure, they were far from perfect, but that didn't make us any less protective or sympathetic towards them.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline delalluvia

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Exactly.

Offline Artiste

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Wow, wow, you consider them (Ennis and Jack) not heroes!!

Are their wives them heroes, to you??

Do you think that Jack should have let things be?

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to you and to all persons who like to help the world be a better place!!

Offline delalluvia

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Wow, wow, you consider them (Ennis and Jack) not heroes!!

Are their wives them heroes, to you??

Do you think that Jack should have let things be?

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to you and to all persons who like to help the world be a better place!!

No one is a hero in BBM, Artiste, they are just normal people trying to deal with what they have been given in life.  Some deal with it better than others.

Offline jstephens9

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As much as people love to almost deify these two men, and hate any insinuation that they are less than the heroes our collective memories recall, the fact is that Jack was a very selfish boy and man.  It effected his family, his relationship with Ennis and ultimately himself.  He couldn't accept the way things were because they were not the the way he wanted them to be.  I personally am of the belief that when he left Ennis that day in May, he left Ennis for good, but we will never know the answer to that one, but if that is the case, then in the end, it was Jack who made the most emotional progress.

You may be right Scott. Since we never found out exactly how Jack reacted to his last time with Ennis we really don't know what would have happened. Maybe he really did leave Ennis for good. Maybe that truly was his breaking point. It is hard to say.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks Katie77, thanks delalluvia, thanks jstephens9,  thanks Scott, and thanks to all others too!!

I really like your sentence delalluvia: No one is a hero in BBM, Artiste, they are just normal people trying to deal with what they have been given in life.  Some deal with it better than others!!
Dell and others: may I add at least in the book and the movie, we can think and see that they (each charactor) seeksimplehappiness with douceur, how can I translate that from the French??

.............So I add to: Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were... can not be since he did seek simple happiness with Ennis, as both had that for awhile, thank goodness especially on Brokeback Mountain!! Beholding that?? Forever, was that possible?? That glory, goodwill, peace, there on Brokeback Mountain was like a little heaven... and could that be for any gay (straight, bi or any others) as couple down on earth below?? Even then, as well as to-day??

Life seems impossible at times, alone or with another?? Never always happy with the way(s) things are?? Everyone touches us, even for a moment alone or as a couple?? May we all have clarity of understanding and sharing all of us on earth, straight, gay, bi, others!! Everyone can see and share with a smile, with a challenge, with other wondrous ways!! To me, BM is that and more as powerful unique paths each have to be unique as well as to couple... to love!!
..............................
Concerning if Jack had left Ennis for good, like you both say: [Posted by: jstephens9 
Insert Quote
Quote from: Scott on December 21, 2007, 03:58:27 PM
As much as people love to almost deify these two men, and hate any insinuation that they are less than the heroes our collective memories recall, the fact is that Jack was a very selfish boy and man.  It effected his family, his relationship with Ennis and ultimately himself.  He couldn't accept the way things were because they were not the the way he wanted them to be.  I personally am of the belief that when he left Ennis that day in May, he left Ennis for good, but we will never know the answer to that one, but if that is the case, then in the end, it was Jack who made the most emotional progress.


You may be right Scott. Since we never found out exactly how Jack reacted to his last time with Ennis we really don't know what would have happened. Maybe he really did leave Ennis for good. Maybe that truly was his breaking point. It is hard to say.
/i]
....
May I think that I guess that will always be a mystery. Good for a remake? At least BMII?? It is to be noted that both Ennis and Jack wanted perfectharmony between the two, as a couple, may I add!! Ennis was indeed scared at first to not only the sight of Jack at the first trailer scene, but also to accept Jack's flirt?? !! How to receive a stranger?? Both had a different approach then and there, right?? At least, there was effort on both and communications, there and then to start with!! Right??

The way(s) we perceive a stranger is always a mystery? No one can ever just be happy the way things are?? Neither Ennis nor Jack nor I, nor anyone???
Awaiting your news which are always marvelous to me you all,

hugs!!
Have a Beautiful Merry Christmas and Wonderful Gay Holidays!!

Offline myprivatejack

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Wow, wow, you consider them (Ennis and Jack) not heroes!!

Are their wives them heroes, to you??

Do you think that Jack should have let things be?

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to you and to all persons who like to help the world be a better place!!
Everybody is selfish when loves someone,because we want more of that person in every sense-about all,TIME-and if the circumstances don´t allow it in the measure we´d wish,we try everything to get it,no matter how.In this sense,Jack wasn´t more selfish than any one of us;what´s more,he was patient enough as to not putting a REAL ultimatum to Ennis much before,what perhaps would have changed the situation for good...I only have seen some proofs of his selfishness in scenes like when he asks if living with Alma is life--perhaps guessing that Ennis only can feel a real love for him.uh?-;or when he doesn´t  understand why Ennis  couldn´t stay with him in August in their last  reunion.That´s all.
However,no,neither Jack nor Ennis are heroes,but two persons who were trying to live their love against the society and environment that they must live in;in this sense,are as "heroes" as anybody else who knows that never will they live as they want to and that meanwhile will let a lot of hopes,illusions and happiness along the way...
Moreover,by living this love they hurt some others persons,above all their wives; who aren´t a very much loved characters for many Brokies-in some fics I´ve read,Alma appears as a crazy woman who kills his ex husband and his lover,full of hate and revenge...-.We must forget that Alma is a country girl educated to be a good wife and mother,nothing more; someone who sees as all her world is destroyed by seeing the man she loves-and whom she keeps on loving after their divorce IMO-not only kissing another man,but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...Sorry for my horrible English,by the way...
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline brokeplex

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Everybody is selfish when loves someone,because we want more of that person in every sense-about all,TIME-and if the circumstances don´t allow it in the measure we´d wish,we try everything to get it,no matter how.In this sense,Jack wasn´t more selfish than any one of us;what´s more,he was patient enough as to not putting a REAL ultimatum to Ennis much before,what perhaps would have changed the situation for good...I only have seen some proofs of his selfishness in scenes like when he asks if living with Alma is life--perhaps guessing that Ennis only can feel a real love for him.uh?-;or when he doesn´t  understand why Ennis  couldn´t stay with him in August in their last  reunion.That´s all.
However,no,neither Jack nor Ennis are heroes,but two persons who were trying to live their love against the society and environment that they must live in;in this sense,are as "heroes" as anybody else who knows that never will they live as they want to and that meanwhile will let a lot of hopes,illusions and happiness along the way...
Moreover,by living this love they hurt some others persons,above all their wives; who aren´t a very much loved characters for many Brokies-in some fics I´ve read,Alma appears as a crazy woman who kills his ex husband and his lover,full of hate and revenge...-.We must forget that Alma is a country girl educated to be a good wife and mother,nothing more; someone who sees as all her world is destroyed by seeing the man she loves-and whom she keeps on loving after their divorce IMO-not only kissing another man,but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...Sorry for my horrible English,by the way...

Your English is just fine. You got your point across. I think that I agree with you about the fact that Ennis and Jack are not heroes. I don't think that Proulx or Lee intended that they would be heroes. They are just average guys with poor educations, and poor prospects that are trying to make their way thru a life in difficult circumstances. Jack was a lucky fellow for a while, he found a comfortable life with Lureen and he didn't wish to give that up. Ennis enjoyed the freedom, flexibility, and isolation of working as a cowhand, and he didn't want to give that up. And they both to varying degrees were afraid of a commitment to each other. Hence, their failure to really make a serious effort at living a life together somewhere.

I'm not sure about the depictions of Alma as a "crazy" woman in the Fan Fic section. People can imagine anything that they wish, that doesn't mean that their imaginings are consistent with the Proulx short story or the Lee film. I like Alma, and respect her decisions. She made an attempt to create a life with Ennis and finally gave up.
She did what she needed to do for herself and her children. I think that she always loved Ennis, he was the love of her life, she could feel nothing else. But, she had to make the right decision about him and left him.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!

Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...

......

Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??
................

Brokeplex, you say about Ennis and Jack: They are just average guys with poor educations
.......
Brokeplex, why do persons say that?? So what if they were poor and with not much education?? If they had been wealthy financially and highly educated like with university degrees or college in such as farming or ranching, they would have lived together forever after, really?? If I may ask that? Please detail.
.........
To me, Jack could not just be happy letting things they way they are, not forever!! He had... done so with Ennis, their ways... yes??

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Happy gay Holidays to you and to all on earth!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!

Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...

......

Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??

May I jump in here since I am also somewhat female? Altho myprivatejack has addressed this question in a very eloquent way... My feeling is that there are basically two ways of loving another person. You can want to possess them, and want to be possessed by them. But, there is another way, a nonpossessive way to love another person. If you follow that road, you've got to be prepared to never see that person again, if circumstances dictate it. You've got to be satisfied to only meet that person again, and be suffused with joy again, in your dreams. And that is the trick that Alma hasn't mastered. Jack did master it for four long years, but a kiss shook him to his very core...

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline brokeplex

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I suspect that Alma could not have mastered that technique in those times (1970'S) at that location(rural WY). She needed an adequate provider for her children and someone who could give her the attention she deserved. Lureen, did somewhat master that technique under different circumstances.
But, who knows, one can speculate that even Lureen who was in a much stronger position than Alma would have eventually grown tired of having the inattentive Jack around and gotten a divorce.

Offline jstephens9

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May I jump in here since I am also somewhat female? Altho myprivatejack has addressed this question in a very eloquent way... My feeling is that there are basically two ways of loving another person. You can want to possess them, and want to be possessed by them. But, there is another way, a nonpossessive way to love another person. If you follow that road, you've got to be prepared to never see that person again, if circumstances dictate it. You've got to be satisfied to only meet that person again, and be suffused with joy again, in your dreams. And that is the trick that Alma hasn't mastered. Jack did master it for four long years, but a kiss shook him to his very core...


Wow Lee you expressed thoughts about nonpossessive love that I have never heard before. In fact I would not have even known what to call that cause I have lived that type of love. And I think you definitely have something there because each time Jack and Ennis did leave each other they really never knew if they would see each other again. They never knew if they would see each other again when they left Brokeback the first time. And that does not mean that the love would have died. It would have remained in their minds.

Oh yeah another thing you are more than somewhat female the times that I met you  :) Althought I did think you were male until I met you  ;D

Jack

Offline Front-Ranger

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You are more than somewhat female the times that I met you  :) Althought I did think you were male until I met you  ;D

Thanks! I think! Those quick personality surveys seem to think I'm 49% male, 51% female, so I don't know if I'm all that qualified to speak for my gender!! I agree with you that nonpossessive love is just as everlasting as the conventional kind. As AP wrote, "He was suffused with joy because Jack Twist was in his dreams." In fact, I am beginning to think that to love and let go is the only authentic and genuine love that exists.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline myprivatejack

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Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!

Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...

......

Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??
................

Well,as I´m the directly asked, ;D I must say that forme this is not a question of being female or male,but TO LOVE, and of course,the way one person loves another.Alma was a very conventional country girl,whose horizon in life was get married,have children with the men she loved and being happy the rest of their life.She wasn´t prepared,neither intelectually nor emotionally speaking to be without a man,and least still to be without the man she had choosen for her life,and least,least still to have been left FOR ANOTHER MAN.For this reason,I think that she felt really devastated when she saw Ennis and Jack together and,although she tried deseperately to recover him again,in her innest self she knew that this never happened-not as she wished...-.And I think that,however,she loved Ennis very much,and still kept on loving him several years after the divorce;she got married to Monroe to have the social and economical safety she needed, as w way to be well-seen for the society she lived in.But her real love was and always would be Ennis,I´m sure...What´s your opinion about?.
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Boy, what wonderful interesting wondrous comments!!

Thanks myprivatejack, thanks Front-Ranger, thanks jstephens9, thanks brokeplex, thanks delalluvia, thanks Katie77, thanks moremojo, thanks Scott, thanks Penthesilea, thanks Jeff Wrangler, thanks  ifyoucantfixit, thanks BradINblue, thanks Ellemeno, and thanks too to all others!!

This thread is indeed such an interest. With your recent ones, I have now started to think about such about my own life! Will detail that latter if you like.

Myprivatejack, since you answered my question and you pose one to me now, I will try to comment to you firstly.
You say:I must say that for me this is not a question of being female or male, but TO LOVE, and of course, the way one person loves another. Alma was a very conventional country girl, whose horizon in life was get married, have children with the men she loved and being happy the rest of their life. She wasn´t prepared, neither intelectually nor emotionally speaking to be without a man, and least still to be without the man she had choosen for her life, and least, least still to have been left FOR ANOTHER MAN. For this reason, I think that she felt really devastated when she saw Ennis and Jack together and, although she tried deseperately to recover him again, in her innest self she knew that this never happened-not as she wished...-. And I think that, however, she loved Ennis very much, and still kept on loving him several years after the divorce; she got married to Monroe to have the social and economical safety she needed, as  way to be well-seen for the society she lived in. But her real love was and always would be Ennis, I´m sure...What´s your opinion about?
.........
Alma, as an adult, makes her own decision. I am surprised that she does that, and that well. Even if her mental health is in difficulty. Plus her money situation with Ennis... as well as with the desire to safely keep her children with him. Her wanting to refuse to have more children with Ennis, is her's obviously, maybe as ploy or not to get rid of Ennis and have a divorse. But she does never separates Ennis in her mind and soul, as we see she tells Ennis off at that Thanksgiving, even if her new husband is close by!! An wondrous scene... as well as difficult for all: Ennis, Alma, Monroe, the girls.

By the way, did she have a child with Monroe?

It seems that Jack could not just be happy with the ways things were.... but do we think that much too about Alma not being glad neither about things are being married with Ennis, but surprisingly with Monroe neither maybe?? May I pose this question to you and to all??

The fact that Alma protest to Ennis at the Thanksgiving, is remarkable, and why does she try to protect Ennis from Jack whom she sees Jack as crasy as in mental as in Jack nasty or Jack-homo??

To most persons then, and to gays too, a homosexual was a mentally unstable person and to be either in prison or in an mental institution!! Many countries think like that to-day... so Annie maybe says that, plus the murdering of gays because they are gays (as in islamic muslims, other religions and other countries like Russia to-day... and thoughts same with some non-gays) is also somewhat outlined.

Maybe we could ask why could not Jack learn to accept that Alam was married to Ennis??


Awaiting your thoughts and comments from you and from all,
Hugs!!                      Merry Christmas with love treasures to all and Happy Holidays!!

Offline Katie77

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Maybe we could ask why could not Jack learn to accept that Alam was married to Ennis??


[

Now that is a good question........

And if Jack crossed the line, it was talking about the two of them being together, while Ennis was still married to Alma......that was pretty selfish, and gave no thought to the affects it would have on Alma and the two girls, not only how they would be affected emotionally, but also financially........Jack indicated that he would have left Laureen, but he also knew that had he done that, Laureen and his son would have been financially comfortable.....

Ennis knew Alma and the girls needed him......and he needed them too.....Ennis had not had any stability in his life for a long time, and he did not want to lose or break up the family unit that he had created with Alma.

Ennis made it clear to Jack, that he had a committment to his family, he made it clear also that it was "not Alma's fault"....and I think Jack knew he was never going to convince Ennis to leave his family and he accepted it....

Once Alma and Ennis divorced, though, I think Jack was reasonable in assuming that now, Ennis would go with him......the fact that Ennis wrote to Jack, telling him of the divorce, was probably even more of an indication of that, to Jack....so when Ennis was still reluctant and refused Jack's plan for them, that was when Jack knew, that it was not only Alma and the girls, that had stopped Ennis, it was still the paranoia and fear of the two men together union....Jack knew then, that Ennis was never going to go with him....Ennis had really let him down.....

I think, up until that time, Jack had stayed "faithfull" to the union with Ennis, but after that, he probably gave up talking about it and as we know, looked for other ways to ease his frustrations, both sexually and emotionally.

The last confrontation, was the time when they both spat out all the gut wrenching emotions that had been building up in both of them over all those years....the truth was, they both wanted the same thing, both felt the same things, but never had the ways or means of making it happen.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Artiste

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Thanks Katie77!

Your description is revealing to me, plus you finalize with this about Ennis and Jack: The last confrontation, was the time when they both spat out all the gut wrenching emotions that had been building up in both of them over all those years....the truth was, they both wanted the same thing, both felt the same things, but never had the ways or means of making it happen.

............

Katie: you really think that they never had the ways? About nor the means?? I tend to think  that Jack had the means to bring Ennis (at least some), because money wise since he had worked on his wive's father's bussiness; could he have been too poor?  Or his wife would have taken all the money if he had asked for a divorse; I know gay men who suffered that as their wives took all $, one was a university professor and his wives took the two houses!! Of course straight couplew, are too difficult, like one of my sisters lost one house after another, all paid she had, because her husband acted badly and she is still paying lawyers and is soon to be in a wheelchair the rest of her life and maybe live on the street!!


Jack did think of some ways: 1- he wanted to continue to help his parents by having stock there; 2- plus, he desired that Ennis and him lived on it in a cabin nearby?? If that was so, then Jack thought of some ways, yes? Plus Jack with that (those 2 ways), could therefore continue to hope and to plan, not learning to just be happy with the ways things were then... since his ways were reasonable and hopeful!!

May I further ask if Jack had also another way: his parents did like the idea that Jack would have brought Ennis to be and work on the Twist parents ranch, right?

Confusing? Help me out Katie and others,  please.

Hugs!!   Merry Christmas with those you desire to be with and Gay Holidays!!

Awaiting your replies... as you wish!!

Offline jstephens9

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Once Alma and Ennis divorced, though, I think Jack was reasonable in assuming that now, Ennis would go with him......the fact that Ennis wrote to Jack, telling him of the divorce, was probably even more of an indication of that, to Jack....so when Ennis was still reluctant and refused Jack's plan for them, that was when Jack knew, that it was not only Alma and the girls, that had stopped Ennis, it was still the paranoia and fear of the two men together union....Jack knew then, that Ennis was never going to go with him....Ennis had really let him down.....

I think, up until that time, Jack had stayed "faithfull" to the union with Ennis, but after that, he probably gave up talking about it and as we know, looked for other ways to ease his frustrations, both sexually and emotionally.

I definitely believe you are right that he did stay faithful to the union with Ennis until the let down after the divorce. In the movie that is when they show him going to Mexico. There was never a time before that they we see Jack being unfaithful to the union. At that point in time I really think Jack pretty much lost all hope that anything would change.

Offline Artiste

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Joyeux Noel, Merry Merry Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad, and in all other languages, may you have all the gay joys you desire!!


Hugs to you and to all this Christmas Day and Gay Holidays!!

Online southendmd

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Regarding Jack's being "faithful" to Ennis, the short story differs:  in the Motel Siesta, Ennis wonders aloud about whether he's gay:

(Ennis) "...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"
"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own. "You know that. Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over..."

In the film, it's possible that Jack has "let go" of Ennis after that summer together, but he probably doesn't remain celibate.  We see him flirt with Jimbo, at least. 

Offline delalluvia

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Regarding Jack's being "faithful" to Ennis, the short story differs:  in the Motel Siesta, Ennis wonders aloud about whether he's gay:

(Ennis) "...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"
"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own. "You know that. Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over..."

In the film, it's possible that Jack has "let go" of Ennis after that summer together, but he probably doesn't remain celibate.  We see him flirt with Jimbo, at least. 

I think once they got back together, Jack was faithful.  Before the Motel Siesta, they didn't even know if they were ever going to see each other again, so I can't say they considered themselves in a relationship then.  After that, I believe Jack was faithful up until Ennis' divorce.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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I think once they got back together, Jack was faithful.  Before the Motel Siesta, they didn't even know if they were ever going to see each other again, so I can't say they considered themselves in a relationship then.  After that, I believe Jack was faithful up until Ennis' divorce.

That would certainly go along with my impression that in the film, when we see Jack tearing off to Mexico after the scene with Ennis, that we are to interpret that as Jack's first trip to Mexico.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Wow, this is interesting as you say southendmd:
Regarding Jack's being "faithful" to Ennis, the short story differs:  in the Motel Siesta, Ennis wonders aloud about whether he's gay:

(Ennis) "...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"
"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own. "You know that. Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over..."

.................

May I think now that Ennis was indeed a virgin before he saw Jack, I think that since you quote the book: I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy...

But is Ennis a virgin as to male with a female? Did he have sex with a female? With like Elma? Before he saw Jack for the first time, that is?
........................... Maybe?


Offline delalluvia

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But is Ennis a virgin as to male with a female? Did he have sex with a female? With like Elma? Before he saw Jack for the first time, that is?
........................... Maybe?

I think so.  As Ennis himself says, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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I think so.  As Ennis himself says, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."



That's my understanding, too. And I've always thought that was a remarkable thing for Ennis to admit, being a guy in the macho culture in which he was raised. I think it shows him opening up to Jack.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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That's my understanding, too. And I've always thought that was a remarkable thing for Ennis to admit, being a guy in the macho culture in which he was raised. I think it shows him opening up to Jack.

That is a good point, in effect Ennis is admitting that he is a virgin. Macho culture does carry a lot of braggadocio in it, but he trusted Jack enough to admit that he was inexperienced. 

Offline Artiste

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Thanks all of you!!

May I pose some questions concerning: As Ennis himself says, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."


...
1. That is said by Ennis in the movie. It is so too in Annie's book?

2. Of course, Jack in the movie was not to be just happy talking with Ennis and tried to seduce him. Did Jack say that there and then As Ennis himself says, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."

... I (Jack) too am an virgin?

Must go... see you later,

hugs!!

Offline myprivatejack

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That is a good point, in effect Ennis is admitting that he is a virgin. Macho culture does carry a lot of braggadocio in it, but he trusted Jack enough to admit that he was inexperienced. 

Yes,they both trusted in each other enough to open-specially Ennis-more than ever;and I think this is one of the reasons why their friendship became something deeper,because they needed above all some warmth,not in a sexual sense only...But in this concrete scene,I think that Ennis is clearly "flirting" already with  Jack-look at the glance he took on this last,to his face and to his "opportunities"... :laugh: -.What is your opinion about?.-
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks myprivatejack!!

You say: Ennis is clearly "flirting" already with  Jack-look at the glance he took on this last,to his face and to his "opportunities"...  -.What is your opinion about?.-
........

Myprivatejack, I think like you do: that Ennis does flirt with Jack then... since he says that he is a virgin and had no opportunity. I tend to think also that he flirts with Jack right at the begginig of the movie!! What do you think?

Hugs!! May all Ennis' and Jacks have/had the opportunity to flirt before, during and/or after New Year Day 2008!!

Offline brokeplex

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Yes,they both trusted in each other enough to open-specially Ennis-more than ever;and I think this is one of the reasons why their friendship became something deeper,because they needed above all some warmth,not in a sexual sense only...But in this concrete scene,I think that Ennis is clearly "flirting" already with  Jack-look at the glance he took on this last,to his face and to his "opportunities"... :laugh: -.What is your opinion about?.-

 I like your "practical" approach to analyzing the movie and the short story.

You are exactly correct, many actions which some may interpret as "romantically" inspired just may be a practical solutions to problems encountered when one camps in the wild. The first tent scene is an excellent example, Ennis's primary motivation at first was warmth, later on that same cold night, loneliness and Jack's availability motivated him to follow thru on Jack's sexual overture.

Offline Artiste

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The focus in not only on sex!!

Sex is only one way to love and to be loved!!

Jack tried to be just happy with sex and, too, without it!! Much more is to be said and discovered!!

His love was not stagnant, neither was Ennis'!! Love can never be that! So what is it with Jack??

Hugs!!

May each day be a welcoming surprise of Gay Joys for you and for all on Earth!!

Offline myprivatejack

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Thanks myprivatejack!!

You say: Ennis is clearly "flirting" already with  Jack-look at the glance he took on this last,to his face and to his "opportunities"...  -.What is your opinion about?.-
........

Myprivatejack, I think like you do: that Ennis does flirt with Jack then... since he says that he is a virgin and had no opportunity. I tend to think also that he flirts with Jack right at the begginig of the movie!! What do you think?

Hugs!! May all Ennis' and Jacks have/had the opportunity to flirt before, during and/or after New Year Day 2008!!
Yes,in the first scenes together there´s a glance´s game altogether with other signs of body´s language that can make us say they´re flirting.But for me is much clearer in Jack´s case,because I think Ennis just is feeling a little embarrassed before the other boy´s  boldness and a little of arrogance.I´ve hardly thought before that Ennis was feeling attracted by Jack-at least consciously-as it was on the contrary case,not at first sight...I´ve rather thought that both of them,in a greater or lesser measure,were "marking their own territory",I mean; work was surely difficult to find in that environment and time,a work with Aguirre that Jack was going to repite for the second year.Perhaps both of them were thinking also that the other boy was going to take his place in this work,more stilll Jack,who already counted with Aguirre´s trust,as it´s supposed.And this need for a job also would mark their first instants together,beyong a simple sexual attraction,that,I repite,there was more in Jack than in Ennis then.Does this make sense?.
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline myprivatejack

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I like your "practical" approach to analyzing the movie and the short story.

You are exactly correct, many actions which some may interpret as "romantically" inspired just may be a practical solutions to problems encountered when one camps in the wild. The first tent scene is an excellent example, Ennis's primary motivation at first was warmth, later on that same cold night, loneliness and Jack's availability motivated him to follow thru on Jack's sexual overture.

Thanks you very much again for your kind words¡ But what I referred to was to "human warmth",in all senses:including sex,but also trust,affection,friendship,companionship,somebody to talk to and who hears to you...any senses of human needs.And also practically and romantically speaking,yes.I meant,therefore,that their needs in all their lives senses made them get closer to the other;because,as Artiste says very well -thanks¡- :The focus in not only on sex!!Sex is only one way to love and be loved¡.For me the "practical" need to be warm in the cold night on the mountain was united to the others you say about feeling lonely and being available to a sexual encounter;aren't all them a kind of saying:-"I'm lonely,I FEEL lonely and I need some human touch; my body and my soul are cold?".


I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks myprivatejack!!

Your comments are very, very interesting!!

Your details are numerous which can help us all surely since we need to think about sex as love as well as your other details: someone to talk to and who hears you, companionship, friendship, affection, trust, as you say. May I add: openness... as I guess that you state that too?

There are many other human senses that others here and you, can add?? Please do.

All this, brings to mind: details. And maybe that is what Jack wanted too: all those facets of love: which you detail?? That is one reason or more reasons why Jack can not just be happy the way things are. What do you thnnk?

Love is wondrous, and many, many, many things.... one desires more of it.
Like eating more ice cream??

Example: my past lover did not want me at first. (I think he just relied on sex with another man! ?) So I continued to communicate with him. So months after our meetings, sex, plus, he stated: You are the best thing I need!! I was surprised and happy. Much more can be said. Now, both of us continued not being just happy as things were, as well as that too!!

What do you think? Why be just content the way things are, as Jack wanted more?

Hugs!!   Must go... and will return. Happy New Year to youand to all on Bettermost and on Earth!!

Offline myprivatejack

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I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all!!

All of you have made my 2007 year enjoyable, and even this New Year's Eve!!

Like Jack in the Brokeback Mountain movie, we can not be just happy with things the way they are, so we can and do better them on Bettermost, by sharing our thoughts!!

May I wish you, and to all, a day filled with sunshine and laughter and lots of good cheer, and with your favorite things like BM movies and books!! And, Happy New 2008 Year

!!

Offline brokeplex

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Thanks you very much again for your kind words¡ But what I referred to was to "human warmth",in all senses:including sex,but also trust,affection,friendship,companionship,somebody to talk to and who hears to you...any senses of human needs.And also practically and romantically speaking,yes.I meant,therefore,that their needs in all their lives senses made them get closer to the other;because,as Artiste says very well -thanks¡- :The focus in not only on sex!!Sex is only one way to love and be loved¡.For me the "practical" need to be warm in the cold night on the mountain was united to the others you say about feeling lonely and being available to a sexual encounter;aren't all them a kind of saying:-"I'm lonely,I FEEL lonely and I need some human touch; my body and my soul are cold?".




I don't think that we are really disagreeing. I would never underestimate the need for human warmth in the sense that Ennis needed a fellow human to relate to. After one of his bull sessions with Jack, Ennis was so happy he could "paw the white out of the moon". No sex involved, just conversation, "They respected each others opinions".

Because of the cold night air in Tent Scene One, I would not discount the other need for human warmth, it is cold spending the night out in the open in the Rockies, even in the middle of the summer. In my little house near Missoula, it sometimes freezes at night in July! Scared the hell out of this Texas boy, the first time I saw frost on my truck in the early morning in July. Ennis needed to get warm, and that coupled with his growing warm feelings for Jack, and just plain old teenaged horniness, resulted in the action in Tent Scene One.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Ennis needed to get warm, and that coupled with his growing warm feelings for Jack, and just plain old teenaged horniness, resulted in the action in Tent Scene One.

Tell you what, in light of this comment, maybe this is an appropriate place to share something that actually has me laughing at myself. You would think I would have realized this long ago, but it was only a month or two ago that I realized something about that first time in the tent, whether in the short story or the film: The reason the action went so fast was because Ennis was already erect when Jack reached around and grabbed Ennis's hand and placed it on his own erection.

Well, duh. ... (Wrangler slaps self up side the head.)  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline myprivatejack

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Tell you what, in light of this comment, maybe this is an appropriate place to share something that actually has me laughing at myself. You would think I would have realized this long ago, but it was only a month or two ago that I realized something about that first time in the tent, whether in the short story or the film: The reason the action went so fast was because Ennis was already erect when Jack reached around and grabbed Ennis's hand and placed it on his own erection.

Well, duh. ... (Wrangler slaps self up side the head.)  :laugh:
:laugh: Yes,on the contrary it would have been the most similar to a rocket¡¡¡ ;D
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline myprivatejack

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I don't think that we are really disagreeing. I would never underestimate the need for human warmth in the sense that Ennis needed a fellow human to relate to. After one of his bull sessions with Jack, Ennis was so happy he could "paw the white out of the moon". No sex involved, just conversation, "They respected each others opinions".

Because of the cold night air in Tent Scene One, I would not discount the other need for human warmth, it is cold spending the night out in the open in the Rockies, even in the middle of the summer. In my little house near Missoula, it sometimes freezes at night in July! Scared the hell out of this Texas boy, the first time I saw frost on my truck in the early morning in July.. Ennis needed to get warm, and that coupled with his growing warm feelings for Jack, and just plain old teenaged horniness, resulted in the action in Tent Scene One
Yes,it´s what I meant before...For me it was a complete group of feelings and sensations that carried to the FNIT ;Ennis felt an attraction for Jack in every sense of the word-perhaps much before we can see in that night-.That´s why he was so rapid,uh,Jeff?.
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline brokeplex

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As someone who has been dragged out into the wilderness for camp outs with butch men, I can tell you that the quickest way to get the tent warmed up is a little nookie action, trust me.

Offline Artiste

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about that first time in the tent, whether in the short story or the film: The reason the action went so fast was because Ennis was already erect when Jack reached around and grabbed Ennis's hand and placed it on his own erection.
well said Jeff!!

That was so in the book?

Hugs!! May all tents in the world have such actions!!

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If Ennis was erect in the tent, it's not at all clear that Jack could have known this when he put Ennis's hand upon his (Jack's) own tumescence. If Jack had sensed or known this, it would make his action seem less impulsive and risky.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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If Ennis was erect in the tent, it's not at all clear that Jack could have known this when he put Ennis's hand upon his (Jack's) own tumescence. If Jack had sensed or known this, it would make his action seem less impulsive and risky.

Yes?

We can't tell how closely they're huddled together for warmth. My guess now is that Ennis was erect, and Jack could feel it.

A 19-year-old can get pretty hard pretty fast, I guess, even if he's drunk. But still, it's troubled me that the penetration is almost instantaneous. This could be explained if Ennis was already erect.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Yes?

We can't tell how closely they're huddled together for warmth. My guess now is that Ennis was erect, and Jack could feel it.

A 19-year-old can get pretty hard pretty fast, I guess, even if he's drunk. But still, it's troubled me that the penetration is almost instantaneous. This could be explained if Ennis was already erect.

Jeff, I think that you are correct! I hadn't considered that Ennis was entirely aware of Jack's plans, but now I think he knew what was going to happen.

AP writes, "...with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, he entered him, nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed."

 The "clear slick" part of that qoute tells me that Ennis may have been erect for a while. Maybe Ennis was playing that old game my frat brothers used to play, he was pretending to not be interested, just laying there waiting. "oh last night, I was asleep, sure was a lot of noise in the halls!" yep, I've heard that one before.


Offline Sandy

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Is it not human nature to strive for more?  For example, we all go to work each day, but dream about a better future for us, for our families.  People work hard for promotions, go to college etc.  It may not be utopia that we seek but we certainly hope for progression. 

Applying the same theory to relationships, couples get married/become civil partners (in Scotland).  People want more-more security, or, in Jack’s case, a commitment. 

It was never mentioned in the film, but it appeared to me that during the twenty years previously, trips were never cancelled.  The blow up occurred during their final meeting and neither mentioned the fact that trips were always being put off, simply that they weren’t long/often enough.

If that is the case, then Ennis gave Jack as much of a commitment that he could. On that basis, maybe Jack was thinking that love grows, children get older, society moves on and one day, one day….   

Sandy

P.S. Wrangler, it did seem instantaneous and I thank you for explaining why!  Sandy slaps forehead!


Offline Sandy

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Sorry, I meant to add, I don't think Ennis could learn to be happy with things as they were either.  Maybe he was unhappy because he couldn't be with Jack ("if you can't fix it") or wished he didn't want to be with Jack ("why can't you just let me be"). Things came to a head and he asked, "Why don't you [quit me]?"

Just a quick thought!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Jeff, I think that you are correct! I hadn't considered that Ennis was entirely aware of Jack's plans, but now I think he knew what was going to happen.

AP writes, "...with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, he entered him, nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed."

 The "clear slick" part of that qoute tells me that Ennis may have been erect for a while. Maybe Ennis was playing that old game my frat brothers used to play, he was pretending to not be interested, just laying there waiting. "oh last night, I was asleep, sure was a lot of noise in the halls!" yep, I've heard that one before.



Good thought! (Wrangler slaps self up side the head again.  ;D )

Can you believe I'd forgotten about "the clear slick" part? But if Ennis was already "leaky," that would just about require that he was already erect, wouldin't it?

Not sure I'm convinced that Ennis knew what was, er, coming. I'll have to think about that some more. The scenario in my own mind at this point is that neither was actually planning it or even expecting it that night, but once they got snuggled up together, they both got hard. Jack could feel Ennis against him, then reached around, took Ennis's hand, and placed it on his own erection. That action gave Ennis the "go ahead."

I wonder, however, if this scenario quite works in the film? Maybe Heath's drunkenly mumbled, "What're you doin'?" suggests that "Film Ennis" wasn't quite so ready? Except that "it happens" pretty quick in the movie, too. ...  ???

P.S. Wrangler, it did seem instantaneous and I thank you for explaining why!  Sandy slaps forehead!

Well, I just offer that as a possible explanation, but, you're welcome!  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Good thought! (Wrangler slaps self up side the head again.  ;D )



I wonder, however, if this scenario quite works in the film?

Maybe Heath's drunkenly mumbled, "What're you doin'?" suggests that "Film Ennis" wasn't quite so ready? Except that "it happens" pretty quick in the movie, too. ...  ???


Or it could be just more closeted "deniability". To put other words in Ennis's mouth, -  Jack I don't know what your doing, but I'll go along with it as long as you know that I'm not queer and I'm not making the first moves - .

Offline Penthesilea

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I think there's a difference between TS1 in the movie and in the story. In the story, it reads:
"..and in a little while, they deepened their intimacy considerably."
I read this that there has been going on something before Jack took Ennis's hand and that they were both awake. However far that something went, both were aware of the direction it was going.

In the movie though, there's no such thing. They're only huddled close together. And we see Ennis sleeping. When Jack takes his hand, Ennis turns with the pull still sleeping and it takes him a moment before he's awake enough to realize where his hand is.
Of course, this doesn't mean Ennis wasn't already erect and possibly even "leaky". Dreams.
Maybe he was, maybe Jack felt it.
Maybe Ennis was even dreaming of Jack   ;).


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Maybe Ennis was even dreaming of Jack   ;).

I sure would have been. ...  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Wow! When I suggested this question, I had no idea that the discussion would take this fascinating turn!! 

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Wow! When I suggested this question, I had no idea that the discussion would take this fascinating turn!! 



I guess it did get turned off topic, and I guess that's my fault, but so it goes. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Actually I love it when threads go OT...I must be one sick individual. I like to give prizes for the most OT thread!!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Wow, wow, wow!!

Sex, is that why Jack just could not learn to be just happy without it firstly?? For Ennis and Jack, their first sex scene in the BM movie firstly did help, and helped both!! Surely!! For as a second step for friendship!!

Ennis and Jack were drinking a lot
that night!!
So both had to have one hard since they were sleeping it off!! That was normal... right?? Booze galore goes there... while you sleep!!

As to if both did dream then about sex... likely so since both became hard??
That possibility seems there!! And for each!! Before sex!!

.......
So Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were... not only after that, but important as well as before their first sex scene?? !! It had to be so (sex) for Jack since he had a crush, immediately when he first had seen Ennis at that trailer getting their jobs from Aguirre as seen in the BM movie!!
........
Is that why many gay men get drunk in order to have sex together?? May I ask?

Hugs!!  May all Ennis' and Jacks learn not to be happy as things are, as just sex, and seek the grandeur of love as things can become more happiness!!