Author Topic: TOTW 19/07: Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were af  (Read 13115 times)

Offline myprivatejack

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Wow, wow, you consider them (Ennis and Jack) not heroes!!

Are their wives them heroes, to you??

Do you think that Jack should have let things be?

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to you and to all persons who like to help the world be a better place!!
Everybody is selfish when loves someone,because we want more of that person in every sense-about all,TIME-and if the circumstances donīt allow it in the measure weīd wish,we try everything to get it,no matter how.In this sense,Jack wasnīt more selfish than any one of us;whatīs more,he was patient enough as to not putting a REAL ultimatum to Ennis much before,what perhaps would have changed the situation for good...I only have seen some proofs of his selfishness in scenes like when he asks if living with Alma is life--perhaps guessing that Ennis only can feel a real love for him.uh?-;or when he doesnīt  understand why Ennis  couldnīt stay with him in August in their last  reunion.Thatīs all.
However,no,neither Jack nor Ennis are heroes,but two persons who were trying to live their love against the society and environment that they must live in;in this sense,are as "heroes" as anybody else who knows that never will they live as they want to and that meanwhile will let a lot of hopes,illusions and happiness along the way...
Moreover,by living this love they hurt some others persons,above all their wives; who arenīt a very much loved characters for many Brokies-in some fics Iīve read,Alma appears as a crazy woman who kills his ex husband and his lover,full of hate and revenge...-.We must forget that Alma is a country girl educated to be a good wife and mother,nothing more; someone who sees as all her world is destroyed by seeing the man she loves-and whom she keeps on loving after their divorce IMO-not only kissing another man,but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,itīs only LIFE...Sorry for my horrible English,by the way...
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are lifeīs tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline brokeplex

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Everybody is selfish when loves someone,because we want more of that person in every sense-about all,TIME-and if the circumstances donīt allow it in the measure weīd wish,we try everything to get it,no matter how.In this sense,Jack wasnīt more selfish than any one of us;whatīs more,he was patient enough as to not putting a REAL ultimatum to Ennis much before,what perhaps would have changed the situation for good...I only have seen some proofs of his selfishness in scenes like when he asks if living with Alma is life--perhaps guessing that Ennis only can feel a real love for him.uh?-;or when he doesnīt  understand why Ennis  couldnīt stay with him in August in their last  reunion.Thatīs all.
However,no,neither Jack nor Ennis are heroes,but two persons who were trying to live their love against the society and environment that they must live in;in this sense,are as "heroes" as anybody else who knows that never will they live as they want to and that meanwhile will let a lot of hopes,illusions and happiness along the way...
Moreover,by living this love they hurt some others persons,above all their wives; who arenīt a very much loved characters for many Brokies-in some fics Iīve read,Alma appears as a crazy woman who kills his ex husband and his lover,full of hate and revenge...-.We must forget that Alma is a country girl educated to be a good wife and mother,nothing more; someone who sees as all her world is destroyed by seeing the man she loves-and whom she keeps on loving after their divorce IMO-not only kissing another man,but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,itīs only LIFE...Sorry for my horrible English,by the way...

Your English is just fine. You got your point across. I think that I agree with you about the fact that Ennis and Jack are not heroes. I don't think that Proulx or Lee intended that they would be heroes. They are just average guys with poor educations, and poor prospects that are trying to make their way thru a life in difficult circumstances. Jack was a lucky fellow for a while, he found a comfortable life with Lureen and he didn't wish to give that up. Ennis enjoyed the freedom, flexibility, and isolation of working as a cowhand, and he didn't want to give that up. And they both to varying degrees were afraid of a commitment to each other. Hence, their failure to really make a serious effort at living a life together somewhere.

I'm not sure about the depictions of Alma as a "crazy" woman in the Fan Fic section. People can imagine anything that they wish, that doesn't mean that their imaginings are consistent with the Proulx short story or the Lee film. I like Alma, and respect her decisions. She made an attempt to create a life with Ennis and finally gave up.
She did what she needed to do for herself and her children. I think that she always loved Ennis, he was the love of her life, she could feel nothing else. But, she had to make the right decision about him and left him.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!

Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,itīs only LIFE...

......

Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??
................

Brokeplex, you say about Ennis and Jack: They are just average guys with poor educations
.......
Brokeplex, why do persons say that?? So what if they were poor and with not much education?? If they had been wealthy financially and highly educated like with university degrees or college in such as farming or ranching, they would have lived together forever after, really?? If I may ask that? Please detail.
.........
To me, Jack could not just be happy letting things they way they are, not forever!! He had... done so with Ennis, their ways... yes??

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Happy gay Holidays to you and to all on earth!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!

Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,itīs only LIFE...

......

Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??

May I jump in here since I am also somewhat female? Altho myprivatejack has addressed this question in a very eloquent way... My feeling is that there are basically two ways of loving another person. You can want to possess them, and want to be possessed by them. But, there is another way, a nonpossessive way to love another person. If you follow that road, you've got to be prepared to never see that person again, if circumstances dictate it. You've got to be satisfied to only meet that person again, and be suffused with joy again, in your dreams. And that is the trick that Alma hasn't mastered. Jack did master it for four long years, but a kiss shook him to his very core...

When you see the smiley face in the sky, the pandemic will be over!

Offline brokeplex

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I suspect that Alma could not have mastered that technique in those times (1970'S) at that location(rural WY). She needed an adequate provider for her children and someone who could give her the attention she deserved. Lureen, did somewhat master that technique under different circumstances.
But, who knows, one can speculate that even Lureen who was in a much stronger position than Alma would have eventually grown tired of having the inattentive Jack around and gotten a divorce.

Offline jstephens9

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May I jump in here since I am also somewhat female? Altho myprivatejack has addressed this question in a very eloquent way... My feeling is that there are basically two ways of loving another person. You can want to possess them, and want to be possessed by them. But, there is another way, a nonpossessive way to love another person. If you follow that road, you've got to be prepared to never see that person again, if circumstances dictate it. You've got to be satisfied to only meet that person again, and be suffused with joy again, in your dreams. And that is the trick that Alma hasn't mastered. Jack did master it for four long years, but a kiss shook him to his very core...


Wow Lee you expressed thoughts about nonpossessive love that I have never heard before. In fact I would not have even known what to call that cause I have lived that type of love. And I think you definitely have something there because each time Jack and Ennis did leave each other they really never knew if they would see each other again. They never knew if they would see each other again when they left Brokeback the first time. And that does not mean that the love would have died. It would have remained in their minds.

Oh yeah another thing you are more than somewhat female the times that I met you  :) Althought I did think you were male until I met you  ;D

Jack

Offline Front-Ranger

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You are more than somewhat female the times that I met you  :) Althought I did think you were male until I met you  ;D

Thanks! I think! Those quick personality surveys seem to think I'm 49% male, 51% female, so I don't know if I'm all that qualified to speak for my gender!! I agree with you that nonpossessive love is just as everlasting as the conventional kind. As AP wrote, "He was suffused with joy because Jack Twist was in his dreams." In fact, I am beginning to think that to love and let go is the only authentic and genuine love that exists.

When you see the smiley face in the sky, the pandemic will be over!

Offline myprivatejack

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Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!

Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,itīs only LIFE...

......

Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??
................

Well,as Iīm the directly asked, ;D I must say that forme this is not a question of being female or male,but TO LOVE, and of course,the way one person loves another.Alma was a very conventional country girl,whose horizon in life was get married,have children with the men she loved and being happy the rest of their life.She wasnīt prepared,neither intelectually nor emotionally speaking to be without a man,and least still to be without the man she had choosen for her life,and least,least still to have been left FOR ANOTHER MAN.For this reason,I think that she felt really devastated when she saw Ennis and Jack together and,although she tried deseperately to recover him again,in her innest self she knew that this never happened-not as she wished...-.And I think that,however,she loved Ennis very much,and still kept on loving him several years after the divorce;she got married to Monroe to have the social and economical safety she needed, as w way to be well-seen for the society she lived in.But her real love was and always would be Ennis,Iīm sure...Whatīs your opinion about?.
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are lifeīs tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Boy, what wonderful interesting wondrous comments!!

Thanks myprivatejack, thanks Front-Ranger, thanks jstephens9, thanks brokeplex, thanks delalluvia, thanks Katie77, thanks moremojo, thanks Scott, thanks Penthesilea, thanks Jeff Wrangler, thanks  ifyoucantfixit, thanks BradINblue, thanks Ellemeno, and thanks too to all others!!

This thread is indeed such an interest. With your recent ones, I have now started to think about such about my own life! Will detail that latter if you like.

Myprivatejack, since you answered my question and you pose one to me now, I will try to comment to you firstly.
You say:I must say that for me this is not a question of being female or male, but TO LOVE, and of course, the way one person loves another. Alma was a very conventional country girl, whose horizon in life was get married, have children with the men she loved and being happy the rest of their life. She wasnīt prepared, neither intelectually nor emotionally speaking to be without a man, and least still to be without the man she had choosen for her life, and least, least still to have been left FOR ANOTHER MAN. For this reason, I think that she felt really devastated when she saw Ennis and Jack together and, although she tried deseperately to recover him again, in her innest self she knew that this never happened-not as she wished...-. And I think that, however, she loved Ennis very much, and still kept on loving him several years after the divorce; she got married to Monroe to have the social and economical safety she needed, as  way to be well-seen for the society she lived in. But her real love was and always would be Ennis, Iīm sure...Whatīs your opinion about?
.........
Alma, as an adult, makes her own decision. I am surprised that she does that, and that well. Even if her mental health is in difficulty. Plus her money situation with Ennis... as well as with the desire to safely keep her children with him. Her wanting to refuse to have more children with Ennis, is her's obviously, maybe as ploy or not to get rid of Ennis and have a divorse. But she does never separates Ennis in her mind and soul, as we see she tells Ennis off at that Thanksgiving, even if her new husband is close by!! An wondrous scene... as well as difficult for all: Ennis, Alma, Monroe, the girls.

By the way, did she have a child with Monroe?

It seems that Jack could not just be happy with the ways things were.... but do we think that much too about Alma not being glad neither about things are being married with Ennis, but surprisingly with Monroe neither maybe?? May I pose this question to you and to all??

The fact that Alma protest to Ennis at the Thanksgiving, is remarkable, and why does she try to protect Ennis from Jack whom she sees Jack as crasy as in mental as in Jack nasty or Jack-homo??

To most persons then, and to gays too, a homosexual was a mentally unstable person and to be either in prison or in an mental institution!! Many countries think like that to-day... so Annie maybe says that, plus the murdering of gays because they are gays (as in islamic muslims, other religions and other countries like Russia to-day... and thoughts same with some non-gays) is also somewhat outlined.

Maybe we could ask why could not Jack learn to accept that Alam was married to Ennis??


Awaiting your thoughts and comments from you and from all,
Hugs!!                      Merry Christmas with love treasures to all and Happy Holidays!!

Offline Katie77

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Maybe we could ask why could not Jack learn to accept that Alam was married to Ennis??


[

Now that is a good question........

And if Jack crossed the line, it was talking about the two of them being together, while Ennis was still married to Alma......that was pretty selfish, and gave no thought to the affects it would have on Alma and the two girls, not only how they would be affected emotionally, but also financially........Jack indicated that he would have left Laureen, but he also knew that had he done that, Laureen and his son would have been financially comfortable.....

Ennis knew Alma and the girls needed him......and he needed them too.....Ennis had not had any stability in his life for a long time, and he did not want to lose or break up the family unit that he had created with Alma.

Ennis made it clear to Jack, that he had a committment to his family, he made it clear also that it was "not Alma's fault"....and I think Jack knew he was never going to convince Ennis to leave his family and he accepted it....

Once Alma and Ennis divorced, though, I think Jack was reasonable in assuming that now, Ennis would go with him......the fact that Ennis wrote to Jack, telling him of the divorce, was probably even more of an indication of that, to Jack....so when Ennis was still reluctant and refused Jack's plan for them, that was when Jack knew, that it was not only Alma and the girls, that had stopped Ennis, it was still the paranoia and fear of the two men together union....Jack knew then, that Ennis was never going to go with him....Ennis had really let him down.....

I think, up until that time, Jack had stayed "faithfull" to the union with Ennis, but after that, he probably gave up talking about it and as we know, looked for other ways to ease his frustrations, both sexually and emotionally.

The last confrontation, was the time when they both spat out all the gut wrenching emotions that had been building up in both of them over all those years....the truth was, they both wanted the same thing, both felt the same things, but never had the ways or means of making it happen.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection