Author Topic: TOTW 19/07: Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were af  (Read 30513 times)

Offline Artiste

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Thanks Katie77!

Your description is revealing to me, plus you finalize with this about Ennis and Jack: The last confrontation, was the time when they both spat out all the gut wrenching emotions that had been building up in both of them over all those years....the truth was, they both wanted the same thing, both felt the same things, but never had the ways or means of making it happen.

............

Katie: you really think that they never had the ways? About nor the means?? I tend to think  that Jack had the means to bring Ennis (at least some), because money wise since he had worked on his wive's father's bussiness; could he have been too poor?  Or his wife would have taken all the money if he had asked for a divorse; I know gay men who suffered that as their wives took all $, one was a university professor and his wives took the two houses!! Of course straight couplew, are too difficult, like one of my sisters lost one house after another, all paid she had, because her husband acted badly and she is still paying lawyers and is soon to be in a wheelchair the rest of her life and maybe live on the street!!


Jack did think of some ways: 1- he wanted to continue to help his parents by having stock there; 2- plus, he desired that Ennis and him lived on it in a cabin nearby?? If that was so, then Jack thought of some ways, yes? Plus Jack with that (those 2 ways), could therefore continue to hope and to plan, not learning to just be happy with the ways things were then... since his ways were reasonable and hopeful!!

May I further ask if Jack had also another way: his parents did like the idea that Jack would have brought Ennis to be and work on the Twist parents ranch, right?

Confusing? Help me out Katie and others,  please.

Hugs!!   Merry Christmas with those you desire to be with and Gay Holidays!!

Awaiting your replies... as you wish!!

Offline jstephens9

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Once Alma and Ennis divorced, though, I think Jack was reasonable in assuming that now, Ennis would go with him......the fact that Ennis wrote to Jack, telling him of the divorce, was probably even more of an indication of that, to Jack....so when Ennis was still reluctant and refused Jack's plan for them, that was when Jack knew, that it was not only Alma and the girls, that had stopped Ennis, it was still the paranoia and fear of the two men together union....Jack knew then, that Ennis was never going to go with him....Ennis had really let him down.....

I think, up until that time, Jack had stayed "faithfull" to the union with Ennis, but after that, he probably gave up talking about it and as we know, looked for other ways to ease his frustrations, both sexually and emotionally.

I definitely believe you are right that he did stay faithful to the union with Ennis until the let down after the divorce. In the movie that is when they show him going to Mexico. There was never a time before that they we see Jack being unfaithful to the union. At that point in time I really think Jack pretty much lost all hope that anything would change.

Offline Artiste

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Joyeux Noel, Merry Merry Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad, and in all other languages, may you have all the gay joys you desire!!


Hugs to you and to all this Christmas Day and Gay Holidays!!

Offline southendmd

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Regarding Jack's being "faithful" to Ennis, the short story differs:  in the Motel Siesta, Ennis wonders aloud about whether he's gay:

(Ennis) "...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"
"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own. "You know that. Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over..."

In the film, it's possible that Jack has "let go" of Ennis after that summer together, but he probably doesn't remain celibate.  We see him flirt with Jimbo, at least. 

Offline delalluvia

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Regarding Jack's being "faithful" to Ennis, the short story differs:  in the Motel Siesta, Ennis wonders aloud about whether he's gay:

(Ennis) "...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"
"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own. "You know that. Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over..."

In the film, it's possible that Jack has "let go" of Ennis after that summer together, but he probably doesn't remain celibate.  We see him flirt with Jimbo, at least. 

I think once they got back together, Jack was faithful.  Before the Motel Siesta, they didn't even know if they were ever going to see each other again, so I can't say they considered themselves in a relationship then.  After that, I believe Jack was faithful up until Ennis' divorce.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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I think once they got back together, Jack was faithful.  Before the Motel Siesta, they didn't even know if they were ever going to see each other again, so I can't say they considered themselves in a relationship then.  After that, I believe Jack was faithful up until Ennis' divorce.

That would certainly go along with my impression that in the film, when we see Jack tearing off to Mexico after the scene with Ennis, that we are to interpret that as Jack's first trip to Mexico.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Wow, this is interesting as you say southendmd:
Regarding Jack's being "faithful" to Ennis, the short story differs:  in the Motel Siesta, Ennis wonders aloud about whether he's gay:

(Ennis) "...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"
"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own. "You know that. Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over..."

.................

May I think now that Ennis was indeed a virgin before he saw Jack, I think that since you quote the book: I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy...

But is Ennis a virgin as to male with a female? Did he have sex with a female? With like Elma? Before he saw Jack for the first time, that is?
........................... Maybe?


Offline delalluvia

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But is Ennis a virgin as to male with a female? Did he have sex with a female? With like Elma? Before he saw Jack for the first time, that is?
........................... Maybe?

I think so.  As Ennis himself says, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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I think so.  As Ennis himself says, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."



That's my understanding, too. And I've always thought that was a remarkable thing for Ennis to admit, being a guy in the macho culture in which he was raised. I think it shows him opening up to Jack.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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That's my understanding, too. And I've always thought that was a remarkable thing for Ennis to admit, being a guy in the macho culture in which he was raised. I think it shows him opening up to Jack.

That is a good point, in effect Ennis is admitting that he is a virgin. Macho culture does carry a lot of braggadocio in it, but he trusted Jack enough to admit that he was inexperienced.