The Twist family studies the Gospel of John

[Wayne]

Glad to see everyone here at Bible study!   

Get some tea and toast and some of Shakes's marmalade and let's check out the gospel of John!   

   

[Wayne]

Wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John

"John is the gospel of belief. It was written to convince people to believe that Jesus is  the Messiah, the Son of God. John's purpose in writing is expressed in the conclusion, 20:30–31: "…these [Miracles of Jesus] are written that you may (come to) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name."

As usual, I think we have a lot of assumptions about what those words mean that may cause us to miss the whole point, even while we're reading it. Wikipedia goes on to say

"John focuses on Jesus' mission to bring the Logos ("Word" or "Reason" or "Rationality") to his disciples."

Logos means not just "word" but also "reason" and "rationality."

Logos is the word we tack on to mean "the systematic study of" or "the science of" - like biology.

So let's start with these first few metaphysical verses and think about what they might mean.

[Wayne]

one way of thinking of it...

1 In the beginning was Reason, and Reason was with God, and Reason was God.

2 Reason was in the beginning with God.

3 All things through Reason did happen, and without Reason happened not even one thing that hath happened.

4 In Reason was life, and that life was the light of men.

5 And that light did shine in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

[Wayne]

Or maybe

1 In the beginning was science. And science was with God, and science was God.
2 Science was in the beginning with God.
3 All things through science did happen, and without science happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4 In science was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 And that light did shine in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

[Wayne]

Or

In the beginning was systematic study. Systematic study was with God, and systematic study was God. Systematic study was in the beginning with God.

All things through happened through systematic study, and nothing happened without it. In systematic study was life, and that life was the light of men. That light shone in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

[Wayne]

Of the 4 canonical gospels, John is sometimes thought of as the one that most leans toward Gnosticism - a worldview that values knowledge over faith.

There was a strong tradition of gnosticism before Jesus was born, and there were Gnostic sects of Christianity in the first few centuries BC. There were Gnostic gospels, ranging from the Gospel of Thomas, which is probably pretty true to first century Christianity, to the Gospel of Mary which you can read here.

As the Catholic church came to primacy, these sects came to be viewed mostly as heretical. One fault often attributed to the Gnostic tradition is a belief (rejected by the more traditional church) that matter is intrinsically evil, and only the spiritual realm is good.

[Wayne]

John probably doesn't go that far out on the Gnostic limb, but is generally thought of as the odd-gospel-out when contrasted against the other 3 gospels. Matthew, Mark, and Luke are known as the synoptic gospels and have a great deal of overlapping content, while John seems to be seeing Jesus literally from a different perspective.

For example in the critical scene of the Last Supper, the author of John (whoever it was) is the man who lay with his head against Jesus's breast, and to whom Jesus confides the identity of the one who will betray him.

The author of John identifies himself as "the beloved disciple." Traditionally this author was assumed to be the apostle John, but there are many reasons to question that.

One hypothesis that really caught my attention is that the disciple Jesus loved is actually Lazarus!

http://www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com/
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/01/was-lazarus-beloved-disciple.html

[Wayne]

Lately I've also wondered if the disciple whom Jesus loved might have been Nicodemus, the rich young man who asks Jesus how to gain eternal life. We are told that he went away sad, but maybe he came back... there are a few parallels.

Maybe we can just keep our eyes open for clues as we read through the gospel of John and see what we think when we are done.

[Wayne]

A few other major differences between John and the synoptics (thanks to Wikipedia...)


The Synoptics contain a wealth of stories about Jesus' miracles and healings, but John does not have as many of those stories; John tends to elaborate more heavily on its stories than do the Synoptics.

The healings of demon-possessed people are never mentioned as in the Synoptics.

Most of the action in John takes place in Judaea (including Jerusalem). Only a few events occur in Galilee, and of those, only the feeding of the multitude (6:1–16) and the trip across the Sea of Galilee (6:17–21) are also found in the Synoptics.

Jesus driving the money changers from the temple appears near the beginning of the work. In the Synoptics this occurs late in Jesus' ministry.

The Gospel of John contains 4 visits by Jesus to Jerusalem, each with a Passover celebration. This chronology suggests Jesus' public ministry lasted 3 years. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus makes one trip to Jerusalem in time for the Passover observance.

[Wayne]

This last point (John contains 4 visits by Jesus to Jerusalem, each with a Passover celebration) really struck me the last time I read John.  I began to wonder if he was talking about the same trip each time, just going back to the beginning, or inserting information he got from other people.

I got the impression this could be someone who only met Jesus shortly before he died. This would be consistent with the author being Nicodemus, who meets Jesus in Judea the week before he is crucified.

Or maybe this was a friend who lived in Judea, whom Jesus only was able to visit when he was in Judea each year for the passover. This would be consistent with the author being Lazarus, who lived in Bethany near Jerusalem.

[Wayne]

So on with John 1. We learn that John the Baptist announces that Jesus is

"the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;

this is he concerning whom I said, After me doth come a man, who hath come before me, because he was before me:

and I knew him not, but, that he might be manifested to Israel, because of this I came with the water baptizing. "

Of course we remember from our study of Mark that there is a whole other religion in Iraq, the Mandaeans, who say that John the Baptist was the real prophet and Jesus was not. Their version of this story would be different of course.

Mandeans are the last surviving Gnostic religion from the time of Jesus and John the Baptist. They practice weekly baptism in water from the river.

        

[Wayne]

John 1 goes on to say Jesus recruits his first apostles at and soon after John's baptism ceremony.

One of them, Nathaniel, is impressed that Jesus had seen him under a fig tree. I don't see yet what this is about, but it seemed to be a big deal to Nathaniel. Any thoughts?

[injest]

Or maybe

1 In the beginning was science. And science was with God, and science was God.
2 Science was in the beginning with God.
3 All things through science did happen, and without science happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4 In science was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 And that light did shine in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

uh oh...skating on the edge there!! 

[ifyoucantfixit]

     yikes, are you going to make a map...so we can keep all this straight??

      My brain feels like a ping pong ball...Why is it I always come in and read this just before bedtime..when my
      circuits are winding down........this morning I was reading about the Gnosticism, and Pythegoreanism and I
      could barely think by the time i got done...I need to go get a brain transfusion......heh

[injest]

So on with John 1. We learn that John the Baptist announces that Jesus is

"the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;

this is he concerning whom I said, After me doth come a man, who hath come before me, because he was before me:

and I knew him not, but, that he might be manifested to Israel, because of this I came with the water baptizing. "

Of course we remember from our study of Mark that there is a whole other religion in Iraq, the Mandaeans, who say that John the Baptist was the real prophet and Jesus was not. Their version of this story would be different of course.

Mandeans are the last surviving Gnostic religion from the time of Jesus and John the Baptist. They practice weekly baptism in water from the river.

        

ok stupid question:

is this where the term "Agnostic" came from then??

[ifyoucantfixit]

 Cite This Source - Share This
ag·nos·tic      /ægˈnɒstɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ag-nos-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. 
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study. 
–adjective 3. of or pertaining to agnostics or agnosticism. 
4. asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: < Gk ágnōst(os), var. of ágnōtos not known, incapable of being known (a- a-6 + gnōtós known, adj. deriv. from base of gignskein to know) + -ic, after gnostic; said to have been coined by T.H. Huxley in 1869]
                                                    ----------------------------------              
ag·nos·ti·cal·ly, adverb

[ifyoucantfixit]

John 1 goes on to say Jesus recruits his first apostles at and soon after John's baptism ceremony.

One of them, Nathaniel, is impressed that Jesus had seen him under a fig tree. I don't see yet what this is about, but it seemed to be a big deal to Nathaniel. Any thoughts?

      It is always my idea to examine human nature when confronted with things such as this..no proof mind, but my
opinion....I think that Natanial, as well as the writer of the gospel of John, always sought to he esteemed and
placed in high regard by Jesus...They were probably saying in their own way, I wonder why he picked me out
sitting under yon fig tree.  Or maybe saying Look at me, I was so wonderful that he noticed me even as I sat alone
under a fig tree.  Does that not make me a special one..that he thusly selected me above others...

[Wayne]

Does that not make me a special one..that he thusly selected me above others...

   Yeah, that does ring true!!   

Maybe he was praying ... or to take it low, maybe he was making out with somebody!        Ooops - got caught by Jesus!!   :blush:   

[injest]

   Yeah, that does ring true!!   

Maybe he was praying ... or to take it low, maybe he was making out with somebody!        Ooops - got caught by Jesus!!   :blush:   

 

talk about busted!!

but if he was still chosen?

[Wayne]

uh oh...skating on the edge there!! 

    I guess I forgot the most obvious interpretation ... logos = logic. So the author of John was a Vulcan!   

In the beginning was logic. Logic was with God, and logic was God. Logic was in the beginning with God.

All things through happened through logic, and nothing happened without it. In logic was life, and that life was the light of men. That light shone in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

[Wayne]

talk about busted!!

but if he was still chosen?

   Must not have been too bad ...

When Jesus and Nathaniel are first introduced, Jesus says "Behold, an Israelite in whom there is no guile!"

So maybe Jesus was genuinely congratulating Nathaniel for his piety under the fig tree... or maybe he was teasing him!   

So odd that it's not really explained. You get the impression that everybody knew what really happened, so they didn't bother to write it down ...        

[injest]

   Must not have been too bad ...

When Jesus and Nathaniel are first introduced, Jesus says "Behold, an Israelite in whom there is no guile!"

So maybe Jesus was genuinely congratulating Nathaniel for his piety under the fig tree... or maybe he was teasing him!   

So odd that it's not really explained. You get the impression that everybody knew what really happened, so they didn't bother to write it down ...        

*nodding*

yes, isn't there incidents like that in our daily lifes? we assume everyone understands but in a few years it is forgotten and people don't understand anymore what we are talking about.

[ifyoucantfixit]

       Well oh learned sir...i am afraid I will have to disagree with that one....certainly we dont think that
everything in the Bible is logical....?  Not to my way of thinking for sure...

       Don't get me started......

[Wayne]

certainly we dont think that everything in the Bible is logical....?

No, you're right about that for sure !!!   

OK well here we are in John 2 at the wedding in Cana. A mixed-sex wedding probably. Not that there's anything wrong with that.   

So John (or whoever wrote John) says they run out of wine at the wedding party, and Jesus's mother points this out to him.

It's maybe sort of interesting that by the time John (or whoever wrote this) got around to writing this, Jesus's mother was living with him (John). Presumably it was she who told him this story. So this is one of the few things we hear from Mary herself about Jesus.

[Wayne]

So Jesus tells some servants to fill six stone water jars -- the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons -- with water. Then he tells them to draw some out and take it to banquet. The master of the banquet is very impressed with the quality of the wine.

John notes (as Mary must be telling him) that this is Jesus's first "sign." So this event takes place very early in, maybe even before, Jesus's ministry. This is also one of few stories in John that take place up north in Galilee rather than in Judea.

Most of the rest of the stories in John seem to begin with "Jesus and his disciples were on their way to Jerusalem for the passover when all of a sudden ..."

To me this seems to suggest that the writer is somebody who only sees Jesus when he comes down to Jerusalem for the passover.        Which would not be the apostle John, since he is with Jesus during all of Jesus's ministry in Galilee.  But I'll try to keep an open mind as we proceed !!     

[Wayne]

The very next event is Jesus throwing the money changers out of the temple.

Remember that in Mark, if this is the same occurrence of money-changer-out-throwing, this occurs during the last week before Jesus is killed.       

It could be that Jesus does this on at least 2 occasions when he is in Jerusalem for the passover during 2 different years. That's altogether possible, but for now that's not my gut feeling. To me, for now, it sounds like the writer of John has only about this moment gotten involved in Jesus's life.

Anyhow, Jesus th'ows em out!     

[Wayne]

The authorities ask  "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

Jesus answers them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

This eventually is one of the phrases used when Jesus is accused of blasphemy.  But the writer of John says that Jesus was talking not of the temple of stones but of his own body, implying that he would rise from the grave 3 days after being killed.

[ifyoucantfixit]

      I have always wondered about that seeming dicotomy.  Did he mean the actual stones and brick.  Or his
body temple.?    Was he a trickster, playing head games.?  Even under such dangerous circumstances.

[Wayne]

dangerous circumstances.

  Right, exactly ... in any case the authorities took it to mean the building, and used it in their case against him.  According to the gospel of Mark, he was crucified within less than a week after saying this.

[Wayne]

In chapter 3, a Pharisee named Nicodemus comes to Jesus at night to leran more of his teachings. Jesus tells him that to see the kingdom of God you must be born again. Nicodemus takes this literally and is puzzled. How can a person go back to his mother's womb and be born again?

[Wayne]

Jesus explains that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. The wind blows where it wants and you hear the sound of it. But you don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

So it seems we are to understand the current passage in a spiritual sense and not in the sense of flesh.

Recall by the way that spirit comes from the same root word as "breath." So the analogy of spirit, wind, and breath remains enigmatic.

"Spiritual" doesn't necessarily mean "not physical."  Rather, it means relating to breath instead of relating to flesh.

Maybe ... relating to process rather than matter.   

[Wayne]

So we come to that verse ...

For God so loved the world
That he gave his only begotten son
That whosoever believeth in him
Should not perish
But have everlasting life.

I wanted to take a closer look at these words "everlasting life." What does it mean? Here's a cool website for translation from the original Greek text of any verse in the New Testament:

http://www.greekbible.com/index.php

You can click on any word in any verse in the the Greek New Testament and get a paragraph worth of translations!!   

Here is what it says for the words "life everlasting" (zoe aionios) in John 3:16

(zoe) 1) life  1a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate  1b) every living soul 
2) life  2a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the  hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature  2b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those  who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect  body), and to last for ever. 

(aionios) without beginning and end, that which always has been and  always will be  2) without beginning  3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

[Wayne]

Interesting how in the verse before, John 3:15, it's a little different:

"whosoever believes will in him have everlasting life."

I'm not sure whether the distinction is clear in the original Greek. As well as I can tell, the Greek phrase itself is ambiguous.

If you believe in him, you will have everlasting life.
If you believe, you will have everlasting life within him.

[Wayne]

I think I will make a confession. For now, with my best effort, it is the latter that I can understand better.

My ego wants to be around forever, but I'm not sure if that's the way it works. I find some peace in accepting that through logos, some ... something of value of me and those I love can go on forever.

Cue Celine Dione "My Heart Goes On"       

[Wayne]

Jesus goes on to explain to Nicodemus:

God did not send the son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him...
This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world...
He who practices the truth comes to the Light.

So truth is important, along with reason, light, and breath.

[Wayne]

Now we switch to John the Baptist again; he has not yet been thrown in prison.

At this point Jesus (or perhaps more specifically his disciples) are also baptizing, and it seems everyone is going to him instead of John the Baptist.

John the Baptist says that's ok, Jesus is the real deal. "He must increase, I must decrease."

In fairness, we as readers will remember that the Mandaean version of the story would be the reverse.

And that's it for chapter 3.   

[Wayne]

Chapter 4 has just a couple of stories: The woman at the well, and the healing of the son of the man from Cana.

The authorities are getting annoyed that Jesus and his disciples are baptizing more people than even John the Baptist. To me these sound like small popular uprisings that the authorities just won't tolerate.

So Jesus heads back from Judea to Galilee. The usual route would be 120 miles, but he chooses the shortcut through Samaria. This make it about 90 miles. They are walking. And they make this trip fairly often. It sounds like Jesus walks to Jerusalem at least every year for Passover, and maybe other times as well.

[Wayne]

According to Wikipedia, there are only 712 Samaritans left in Israel today.   

Here are some of them:

                    

According to an old National Geographic, there were fewer than 150 Samaritans in Palestine in 1919. Here are some of them:

[Wayne]

The Samaritans consider themselves to be the remnant of Jews who were left in Palestine in 712 BC when the Assyrians conquered the area.

The Jews considered the Samaritans to be the offspring of the Assyrians themselves. Perhaps it's some of both ... 

Mainstream Jews at the time of Jesus were the descendants of those who had been exiled to Assyria, and then had been allowed to return in 538 BC. The Samaritans had their own temple on Mt Gerizim, and the Jews had theirs in Jerusalem. The Jews avoided the Samaritans, but the 2 provinces of the Jews (Judea and Galilee) were separated by Samaria.

So the quick way home for Jesus and his disciples took them through Samaria, where he met this woman at the well.

[Wayne]

Jesus spells out a little of his theology here. He tells her "The time has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth... God is a Spirit, and those who worship him should worship in spirit and truth.

The woman says to him, "I known that the Messiah is to come, called Christ. When he comes, he will tell us all things."

Jesus says to her, "I am he, who am speaking to you."

The woman becomes convinced he is a prophet because he tells her private things she would not expect him to know about her life. She brings others from town and they become convinced as well.

He actually stays there in the Samaritan town for two days talking with people and many come to believe he is a prophet, or even the messiah.

This may be significant because his experience in Samaria is so much better than it had been in Judea.

[Wayne]

He then goes on north home to Galilee. Many of the people of Galilee had also been in Judea and witnessed the recent events. They seem to be favorably impressed, and are asking for him to perform more miracles for them.

A man from Cana asks Jesus to heal his son who is mortally ill. Jesus seems annoyed that people will only believe in the principles he is teaching if he performs miracles for them

Just the same, he tells the man that his son back in Cana has been healed, and he can go home.

On the way home, the man meets servants coming toward him; it turns out his son was healed at exactly the hour that Jesus said he had been healed!     

Up to this point, still nothing about the gays!   

And here endeth our reading of John chapter 4.     

[Shakesthecoffecan]

John 1 goes on to say Jesus recruits his first apostles at and soon after John's baptism ceremony.

One of them, Nathaniel, is impressed that Jesus had seen him under a fig tree. I don't see yet what this is about, but it seemed to be a big deal to Nathaniel. Any thoughts?

The fig tree sure does seem to occure frequently. I wonder why that is. Maybe it was just prevalent.

[fritzkep]

Don't have much to say here, but I am really enjoying the discussions in this and previous threads! Thanks, Widge!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Do you think He-brew men drank a lot of beer?

[Wayne]

He-brew

  He Brew, the Manly Beer!!   

PS - oh! check it out  -- Messiah Bold !!   

[Wayne]

enjoying

    Yay!  Join in Fritzl  !!

[Front-Ranger]

Can we backtrack a little? I have a question about John 3:10. Is this the famous "whosoever" in the King James Bible??

[Wayne]

Tell us more Front Range!         The famous whosoever?

I googled "whosoever" and guess what ... the first site that comes up ...

[Wayne]

OK here we are at John 5. Jesus is going to Jerusalem for a feast again. The minor point here is that whole communities of Galileans went to Jerusalem for feasts a lot.

The more intriguing point is that most of what the narrator of the gospel of "John" (whoever that person was) seems to know about Jesus concerns those times that Jesus was going to Jerusalem for feasts. So it seems that this person probably was not from Galilee but from Jerusalem or the nearby area.

So this make me think it was not the Apostle John, who was from Galilee.

[Wayne]

Jesus heals a paralyzed man at the pool of Bethesda. One cool thing is that the twon of Bethesda, Maryland is named for Bethesda, and is the location of the US National Institutes of Health. Health is what the old Bethesda was all about - even though the description of it sounds superstitious. "from time to time an angel would come and stir the waters, and whoever stepped in the pool first would be healed of whatever illness or infirmity they had."

Another cool  thing is that the ruins of Bethesda can still be seen in Jerusalem. Here they are. The second one is being excavated. Looks like a long way down ...   

   

[Wayne]

I'll acknowledge that I don't like the phrase attributed to Jesus here:

"Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."     

I'm all for legitimate public health messages like smoking causes cancer and heart disease, and HIV is transmitted through unprotected sex.

But unless Jesus had some more clear advice, the "stop sinning" thing makes me uncomfortable. It sounds superstitious rather than helpful.

Of course, most of what constituted sin was a matter of following rituals. Maybe through observation they had determined that certain rituals, like washing your hands, reduced the transmission of polio.

If that's what Jesus was talking about, then I like it.   

[Wayne]

Also, Wikipedia points out that all the other 3 gospels say this happened in Galilee instead, in Capernaum. Maybe the story got changed a little with re-telling, and maybe the superstitious "or else something worse will happen" got introduced that way.

[Wayne]

The authorities criticize Jesus for healing this man on the Sabbath.  He responds that he as the Son is transmitting the work of the Father. Maybe the implication is that it's the Father who is working on the Sabbath. Anyway, he says, the Father works every day.

This gets them all the more ticked off because now he's "making himself equal with the Father" by calling himself the Son.

We get some specifics about the afterlife and how to get there. It's not 100% clear but it's a framework. Jesus says:

"Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

The time has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. Those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

[Wayne]

Jesus tells the authorities that John the Baptist has testified concerning Jesus, and that even Moses prophesied concerning Jesus.

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

And that's chapter 5.       What do y'all think?

[Wayne]

Chapter 6. Weird. Wikipedia just stops here - no more chapter-by-chapter.

I don't blame them. It starts getting kinda hard.     

OK so Jesus feeds 5 thousand in Galilee from 5 barley loaves and 2 fish. We saw this before in Mark.

In some records the disciples wondered whether the people already had this food, and maybe Jesus's miracle was just getting people to share what they already had.

Sort of a Wizard of Oz message: the miracle you sought was already inside you.   

[Wayne]

OK now Jesus walks on water. I'm gonna tell you the truth, best as I can guess.

Someone very close to me, a devout traditional Christian who lived in the Middle East for years, went to this place on the Sea of Galilee. She said the coastline is very flat. You couldn't imagine how a boat could sail there.

You'd have to walk through shallow water a long long way before you could get to water deep enough where a boat could sail.




 

[injest]

OK now Jesus walks on water. I'm gonna tell you the truth, best as I can guess.

Someone very close to me, a devout traditional Christian who lived in the Middle East for years, went to this place on the Sea of Galilee. She said the coastline is very flat. You couldn't imagine how a boat could sail there.

You'd have to walk through shallow water a long long way before you could get to water deep enough where a boat could sail.




 

ok...this is off topic...so I am sorry..

but I saw a program about the miracles surrounding the time of Moses...

and they were correlating the events to real historical events...like the parting of the Red Sea for example...right around that time was when a volcano erupted out in the ocean and destroyed an island...causing a massive tidal wave. The people on the show were saying maybe that is what cause the water to pull back to let the Isrealites to pass

now the point I am trying to make is this....That doesnt' make it any less of a miracle...Just because we can see HOW it was done. Who make the volcano explode at THAT particular time?

just because there is a natural reason doesn't mean there is no miracle....(and yes I know that sounds stupid...I will shut up)

[Wayne]

Jesus makes what seems to be a play on words.

"The will of My Fatheris that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Elsewhere he uses this phrase "raise him up" in a sense that seems to refer to himself being raised up on the cross on his own last day.

Seems a bit depressing really.   

[Wayne]

Jesus says "My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink." We all have a picture of how this is interpreted now, the Last Supper. But at the time people interpreted it absolutely literally.

The disciples said "this is a difficult statement. Who can listen to it." As a result, many left Jesus and did not walk with him any more (verse 66).

The authorities said "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"

But Peter said "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God."

Jesus said "Did I myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

The narrator tells us Jesus meant Judas Iscariot, who would soon betray him.

So that's it for chapter 6. Thoughts?     

[injest]

does it seem at this point people are beginning to wonder? question? it seems like he is getting more ?extreme? as time goes by? maybe he knows time is short and he is pushing?

[Wayne]

just because there is a natural reason doesn't mean there is no miracle.

   Yeah, I definitely agree!  That is the nature of miracles.

Was it Norman Vincent Peale who said "make miracles happen" ?

Like penicillin the miracle drug, sending robots to drive around on Mars, and coming to understand the cause of diseases so that people can take steps to avoid getting sick.  These things really are miracles!     

The woman at the well just wanted miraculous living water so she wouldn't have to carry water to her home every day.

John 4:15 -- The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

[Wayne]

An etymological aside.     

I don't know if this is true in Aramaic, which is what I think Jesus and the woman at the well were speaking, but in Indo-European there were two different words for water.

One meant still water, as in a cup or in a puddle or in a well.

The other meant flowing, or living water, as in a stream.

So maybe Jesus was telling the woman that he could bring her flowing water.

One of the things I thank Jesus for almost every day is the clean flowing water in my shower and my sink.

By living the way Jesus proposed, in peace with our neighbors, competing less and co-operating more, we can spend our resources on infrastructure rather than war and have living water instead of walking to a well every day and carrying heavy pitchers home.   

[Wayne]

From the Etymology Online Dictionary, and also at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/water :

Linguists believe the proto-Indo-European language had two root words for water: *ap- and *wed-.

The first (preserved in Skt. apah) was "animate," referring to water as a living force; the latter referred to it as an inanimate substance.

The same was probably true of fire (n.).

[fritzkep]

Well, some of us do in fact take the statement of Jesus' flesh and blood as being true food and drink quite literally. But rather than being shocked by the idea, it can be seen as the ultimate gift of Jesus to us. He gives Himself completely to us, in the crib and on the cross, in the host and in our hearts. And he thereby invites us to give ourselves totally to Him. A union of communion indeed.

[Wayne]

    Yes, absolutely!  There are so many ways to understand - that's part of what makes it great!

[Wayne]

      Heath, thank you for all you have done. I am so sorry ...

Requiem Aeternam dona ei, Domine,
et lux perpetua luceat ei.

I read that he was lonely. If so, I wish he could have gone to somebody - even us - and just said he needed some friends.

I wish somebody could have helped him. So many people love him.

Sometimes we turn to the Bible in difficult times. On with John chapter 7.

It is the Feast of Tabernacles, one of the big 3 feasts when most everybody in Galilee walks the 90 or 120 mile route to Jerusalem. Jesus tells his brothers he's going to sit this one out because the authorities are after him, but after they have left, he goes to Jerusalem after all, in secret.

This the feast of "Sukkoth" or tabernacles or booths, a 7-day feast celebrating the harvest in late September or early October.

During this feast, everyone is to build a small structure that is only partly covered. It is to be made of organic materials - something that has grown from the ground like palm fronds or bamboo.

[Wayne]

Because only the portion of the sukkoth that is open to the sky above is kosher, some apartment buildings in Israel are built with this stairstep design so that each floor has a space open to the sky.

[Wayne]

3 or 4 days into the feast Jesus shows up and speaks in the temple. He responds to criticism for healing on the Sabbath, saying it's common sense. Baby boys are circumcised when they are 8 days old even if it is the sabbath, so why should people not be healed on the Sabbath.

"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment," he says. This is the Jesus I can really relate to.

[Wayne]

People debate. Is he the Christ? The scriptures say when the Christ comes we will not know where he is from, but we know where this man is from - Galilee, Mary and Joseph, we know his brothers etc. The scriptures do not predict any prophet or any Christ coming from Galilee.

On the other hand, when the Christ does come, will he do more miraculous signs than this man?

Many decided that he was the Christ, and many decided that he was not.

[Wayne]

On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

John writes that by this Jesus meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

On hearing his words, some said, "He must be the Prophet," that is, Elijah, who the prophet Malachi had said would be sent before Christ. (the same Elijah that came before, or somebody like Elijah? It just says "I will send Elijah")

Others said "He himself is the Christ." Christ, remember, means the Anointed One.

But many people pointed out that Christ is supposed to come from Bethelehem ! This guy is from Galilee, so it can't be him.  So that doesn't seem to fit what the scriptures say will happen.

I guess we have to ask ourselves why the people did not know the version of the story as we read it in Luke, that Jesus was in fact born in Bethlehem.  And more disturbingly, why does John not interject it in the text at this point as a fact if he knew it.     

Whatevz.     

[Wayne]

The chief priests and the Pharisees send the temple guards to arrest Jesus, but the guards come back empty-handed, saying "No one ever spoke the way this man does."

See I probably would have been like that, all, "wow - here we are 4,000 years after the creation of the earth and finally somebody is talking about using common sense and being kind and searching for truth instead of following a bunch of rules that nobody understands and that nobody could possibly follow."

[Wayne]

So Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was a Pharisee himself, asked, "Does our law condemn anyone without first hearing him to find out what he is doing?"

Innocent until proven guilty!

But the rest of the authorities said "go read your Bible and you will see that no prophet is predicted to emerge from Galilee. The Christ is to come from Bethlehem. Jesus is from Galilee, not Bethlehem, therefore he cannot be the Christ."

[Wayne]

John chapter 8 includes one of my favorite verses in the Bible. A good candidate for very favorite...   

[Wayne]

Chapter 8 starts with a very familiar story, the woman caught in adultery who has been sentenced to stoning.

I was surprised to learn that this story (verses 1-11) was not included in the earliest and most authoritative manuscripts of the gospel of John.

Anyhow, the scribes and Pharisees put Jesus to the test by presenting this woman to him and asking what they should do. He stoops down and writes on the ground a bit (so he could write, at least a little). He stands up and says "whoever is without sin should cast the first stone."

The poor Pharisees are foiled again!!       

(cue a Little Rascals laughing audience ... ha ha! )

[Wayne]

We might wonder what he was writing ... we don't know for sure.

Maybe occasions when the would-be stoners themselves "missed the mark" - the literal translation of "sin."

[Wayne]

The rest of the chapter is a dialogue between Jesus and the Pharisees, valuable but dense material.

Perhaps ironically, it ends with evidence that the Pharisees learned nothing from the opening episode. They don't like what Jesus says, so they take up stones to cast at him.     

Buncha violent freaks if you ask me. People like that have no business claiming to speak for God.     

[Wayne]

There are a good many nuggets in between the threatened stonings. My favorite is

If you continue in my word, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

To follow the example of Jesus is to search for the truth and to find freedom in the truth.


This is a way different message from today's stereotypical preacher, who seems to be saying something more like "God told me a secret that I'm not going to divulge to you but if you send me your money I'll see if I can buy you some time. Oh and the bottom line is God Hates Fags."

They add in that last line because that's the one thing that always gets people to send them money.

Today's fag is A.D. 30's adulteress. And today's tele-evangelists are the Pharisees whose daily pleasure is to throw rocks at people to kill them.

[Wayne]

There is a curious line in verse 48: Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan?

At first I thought this was an ethnic slur. But Jesus was from Galilee, a small Jewish territory on the other side of Samaria. Maybe their point was that Jesus was being too accommodating of other ways of thinking that open the mind to a common-sense approach to life.

So yeah then the religious bosses pick up stones to throw at him. Nice guys.   

That's one thing that is still the same 2,000 years later.

[Wayne]

One more thing about the scene of the Pharisees threatening to stone the woman ... where was the man she was found with ?!?           Typical.     

[Wayne]

In chapter 9, Jesus gives sight to a man who had been blind from birth.  But --- he did it on the Sabbath!!     

Jesus spat in the dirt, mixed up the mud and put it on the blind man's eyes. He told him to go and wash at the pool of Siloam (which means "Sent" or "Sending")

The pool of Siloam has recently been uncovered in an archeological dig near Jerusalem in 2005. Here are some pix!   

      

[Wayne]

The disciples asked whose sin caused the man to be blind, his own sin or his parents' sin.   

Jesus responded that several things can lead to congenital blindness including genetics, trachoma, poor nutrition, and staring at the sun.

Just kidding. He said "neither the parents nor the child sinned." In other words, cut it out with all this blaming the victim business. Just help him.

[Wayne]

But of course Jesus makes the classic Jesus mistake of doing this when he should be at church.     

I love verse 16: So some of the Pharisees said, 'This man is not from God, because he does not keep the sabbath.'

    I mean come on now, were the authorities really so superstitious and hard-hearted that they would criticize somebody for breaking the Sabbath by making a blind man see?!? 

That seems pretty ridiculous. But maybe that's how it happened ...   

[Artiste]

Interesting thread you created wdj!

Thanks!

Hugs!

[Wayne]

Thanks Artiste! Glad you're enjoying it ... join in the conversation any time!

I was thinking about the Pharisees - who were they? What did they stand for? What power did they have?

Wikipedia says

"The word Pharisees comes from the Hebrew פרושים prushim from פרוש parush, meaning "separated", that is, one who is separated for a life of purity[1]. The Pharisees were, depending on the time, a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews that flourished during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE–70 CE). After the destruction of the Second Temple, the Pharisaic sect was re-established as Rabbinic Judaism — which ultimately produced normative, traditional Judaism"

To characterize the the Pharisees across such a long period of time seems pretty complicated - like trying to sum up the Democratic party from Thomas Jefferson through the Civil War through today. Sometimes they were probably the good guys and sometimes the bad.

Maybe like all of us they were usually trying to do what was right but sometimes missed the mark.   

[Wayne]

The narrator of the gospel of John presents them as the bad guys.

As we will learn in the final chapter of this gospel, it is being narrated by the man whom Jesus loved.

So he is bound to have some pretty strong feelings about the situation.   

[Wayne]

Ah, here's a more succinct description:

a conservative Jewish sect that arose in Roman-occupied Palestine in the 2nd century BC in protest against all movements favouring compromise with Hellenistic culture. The Pharisees were devout adherents of the law, both as found in the Torah and in the oral tradition known as the Mishnah.

They were opposed by the Sadducees on several grounds: the Sadducees did not acknowledge the Mishnah; the Pharisees opposed Greek and Roman rule of their country; and the Pharisees held a number of beliefs – such as the existence of hell, angels, and demons, the resurrection of the dead, and the future coming of the Messiah – not found in the Torah.

The Pharisees rejected political action, and in the 1st century AD the left wing of their followers, the Zealots, broke away to pursue a revolutionary nationalist policy. After the fall of Jerusalem, Pharisee ideas became the basis of orthodox Judaism as the people were dispersed throughout the Western Roman Empire.

[Wayne]

By the way, Jesus comes down on the side of the Pharisees (against the Saducees) in the controversy over the after life. So he seems to share their view of the universe in some ways.

Wikipedia also says that the Pharisees were seen as the religious leaders of the poor, while the Saducees were the leaders of the rich.

Maybe the poor had a stronger motivation than the rich to believe in an afterlife.   

[Wayne]

Jesus opens chapter 10 with the story of the Good Shepherd...     

I need that image of Jack pulling the thorny scrub out of the lamb's hoof...     

[Wayne]

Jesus says when the shepherd comes to the fold he comes in by the door. Anybody tries to come in some other way must be a thief. The sheep won't follow anybody else because they recognize the shepherd's voice.

Intriguingly, when he explains this story, Jesus does not at first say he is the good shepherd - instead he says he is the door itself. Somethin' to think about ... 

But then yes, when they ask what he means he explains that he is the good shepherd. He will give his life to save the sheep.

[Wayne]

Now comes the Feast of Dedication ... Hanukkah!!     

      

[Wayne]

Jesus walks in the temple in Jerusalem, in the porch of Solomon. People ask him "How long are you going to keep us in suspense?!?  If you are the Christ, tell us straight up!"

He says "I already told you, but you don't believe. The works I do in the name of my Father testify concerning me, but you do not believe."

Still not exactly a straight up yes or no.     

[Wayne]

Jesus says "I give my sheep 'life age-during.' My father who gave them to me is greater than all. I and the father are one.

Well the folks in the temple figured that's a stonin'! They started picking up rocks yet again to throw at him.

What is this business with throwing rocks at people in church?!?       Oh yeah I forgot - these are the self-righteous Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons, and Joseph Ratzingers of their day. For them, church is all about stoning people.

So they answered "We're gonna stone you not because of what you did but because of what you said. You are a man, but you make yourself God."

I guess, in a way it sounds kinda bad.     

[Wayne]

Well so Jesus says, you know what? If you had read the Bible, you would know that God tells people "You are gods." (Psalm 82:6)

And if it's in the Bible, it has to be true, because you say that every single word in the Bible is literally true don't you!!   

And it also says that All of you are sons of the most high. And now you're going to stone me for saying I am the Son of God?!? Who do you think you are?!?

Nyah, nyah, ni nyah, nyah!!!!     

They tried to grab him there in the temple but he got away. He went over to the other side of the Jordan River, where John used to baptize people, and stayed there a while.

[injest]

Well so Jesus says, you know what? If you had read the Bible, you would know that God tells people "You are gods." (Psalm 82:6)

And if it's in the Bible, it has to be true, because you say that every single word in the Bible is literally true don't you!!   
And it also says that All of you are sons of the most high. And now you're going to stone me for saying I am the Son of God?!? Who do you think you are?!?

Nyah, nyah, ni nyah, nyah!!!!     

They tried to grab him there in the temple but he got away. He went over to the other side of the Jordan River, where John used to baptize people, and stayed there a while.

I love it....I can just want to say "SNAP" ...

turned it back on them! I feel the same way about those religious nuts we have to deal with nowdays!!

[Artiste]

Thanks for the invitation wgj!

There was something about  the Pharisees on TV yesterday... a few days ago... this week.

There are only few left... still living, apparently on Earth to-day; dozen or so??

I forget why that was mentioned, oh think it was about the history of writing, like the letters of the then alphabet.. they had something to do with it. Yes!! ??

And certain even Islamic books now found recently (last year was it?) has some of it, in the world's oldest Mosque?? But only recently said that we to-day can read it this [ Pharisees/i] language and writing!!

Of course, the  Pharisees wrote before the arabs? Yes? The arabic language and letters are from the  Pharisees?

I remembrnow that that was live on the French TV  from France. So much interesting that I past way my bedtime - I could not help but look at it for nearly 2 hours... it seems;

there is now an arab history museum I think in  Paris that may help?

What I understood finally was that some of our letters in our alphabet to-day comes from them these:  Pharisees!!
I could never undertand that before, even if I had tried and tried!!

Did you see that on TV? That special show presented also Pharisees buildings, one or two cities; Babal too... was she  Pharisees? She went somwhere to see a great and gave him what... like superb gifts, since she was afraid and so wanted to save herself and her queendom??

Awaiting your news,

hugs! Keep care... so nice to read your efforts and notes!!

[Wayne]

there is now an arab history museum I think in  Paris that may help?

Yes there is!  Right near the Ile St Louis in the Left Bank if I remember correctly. We bought some colorful fabric and stuff there about ten years ago for our living room.

    Here's the museum!

[Wayne]

I love it....I just want to say "SNAP" ...

turned it back on them! I feel the same way about those religious nuts we have to deal with nowdays!!

Exactly! 

I really think Jesus was the John Lennon of his day and these guys were the church group chanting "Imagine John Lennon is dead."

"The kids in my church group used to sing, 'Imagine John Lennon is dead,' then we'd all laugh about it."  -- Mark David Chapman, the man who killed John Lennon

[Wayne]

Shall we sing an hymn? Please turn in your hymnals to hymn number 365, "Imagine."

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[injest]

Shall we sing an hymn? Please turn in your hymnals to hymn number 365, "Imagine."

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

 

[Wayne]

    Yep, yep, yep ...     

[injest]

sometimes I wonder why I even think about religion anymore. Seems sometimes that all it does is cause pain. I miss the way it was when I was a child and Jesus was kind and religion was something that was happy and full of joy...

[Wayne]

The Mormons point to 2 phrases in chapter 10 as supporting 2 unusual points of their doctrine.

First, in verse 16 Jesus says "I also have other sheep that are not in this fold; I must also bring them, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one fold, one shepherd."

According to the Book of Mormon, Jesus came to the Americas during the day or two that passed between his crucifixion and the empty tomb. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints says that in verse 16 Jesus was referring to the people of the Americas who he would speak to during that time.

Second, LDS doctrine says that we are all intended in the afterlife to be literal gods, each with our own universe, just like the man we know as Yahweh is the god of this universe and Jesus and Lucifer are his sons. There are many other universes, each with their own god and his wives and children.

So the LDS say that Jesus was referring to this reality about the universe when he quoted the phrase from Psalm 82:6, "You are all gods, and you are all sons of the most high."

As a staunch backslidden non-practicing Unitarian-Universalist myself, I claim the heritage of all religions, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. The Mormon version might as well be true if anybody wants it to be.   

[injest]

but you won't kill anyone over it??

 

[fritzkep]

Widge, how can a UU tell if he's backsliding?

[Wayne]

Widge, how can a UU tell if he's backsliding?

   Exactly !!

I think they might say I'm out of balance from reading the Bible too much and not enough of the Rig Veda !!   

[Wayne]

but you won't kill anyone over it??

 

   No I will not.

[injest]

   No I will not.

well it can't really be a religion then can it??

 

 

[Wayne]

In chapter 11 we begin to look at the question that for me is the most fascinating mystery of the New Testament. Who was this man whom Jesus loved?

Bible study tomorrow: be there or be talked about!!         Nite y'awl!!   -_-  -_-

[Wayne]

well it can't really be a religion then can it??

As a staunch backslidden UU, I'm ok with it being a religion or not being a religion.   

[injest]

As a staunch backslidden UU, I'm ok with it being a religion or not being a religion.   

and really, that is what is important, isn't it? what YOU feel in your heart...not what someone else thinks or tells you. your relationship (or lack thereof) with a higher power is between you and him/her/it...

[Wayne]

what YOU feel in your heart...not what someone else thinks or tells you.

   That rings true for me for sure.

On the other hand, many people take comfort in having an authority tell them the universe works like such-and-such. It may be very important to them, or they may just file it away. Either is fine as long as they don't hurt anybody with it.

Of course unfortunately they often do hurt people with it.

Maybe I hurt people too by forming my own opinions and understandings ... as a child I was sometimes "bossy" ... I have to work on that myself.        I try to express my thoughts and feelings as my own best guess, impression, or even what I wish were true whether it is or not. But everybody is free to do that for themselves - they don't have to agree or even listen to me of course.   

Anyways.      

[Wayne]

Now on the mystery. Warning: spoilers ahead!!

We learn only at the end of the gospel of John that the book itself was written by the man whom Jesus loved. The gospel tells us that they had a publicly accepted physical relationship. At dinner they laid down together with the man's head on Jesus's chest.

Sexual? I don't know. My current guess is that somewhere along the line they had been physically sexually intimate.

After Jesus was crucified his mother lived with this man for at least an extended period.

[Wayne]

I would like to understand better who this man was and what was the nature of their relationship.   

I bring up the question at this point because it has been suggested by scholars and others that this man is Lazarus:

http://www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com/

http://www.hccentral.com/eller8/index.html

Other names have been suggested as well, including Phillip, the Apostle John, someone else whose name happened to be John, or a completely unidentified man, etc.

http://www.answers.com/topic/disciple-whom-jesus-loved

We meet Lazarus in the first verse of chapter 11.

[Wayne]

gotta take a break for now. See y'all soon ...   

[Shakesthecoffecan]

John 1 goes on to say Jesus recruits his first apostles at and soon after John's baptism ceremony.

One of them, Nathaniel, is impressed that Jesus had seen him under a fig tree. I don't see yet what this is about, but it seemed to be a big deal to Nathaniel. Any thoughts?

I think it was a curising spot in those days.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

ok...this is off topic...so I am sorry..

but I saw a program about the miracles surrounding the time of Moses...

and they were correlating the events to real historical events...like the parting of the Red Sea for example...right around that time was when a volcano erupted out in the ocean and destroyed an island...causing a massive tidal wave. The people on the show were saying maybe that is what cause the water to pull back to let the Isrealites to pass

now the point I am trying to make is this....That doesnt' make it any less of a miracle...Just because we can see HOW it was done. Who make the volcano explode at THAT particular time?

just because there is a natural reason doesn't mean there is no miracle....(and yes I know that sounds stupid...I will shut up)

Yes I saw that too, Santorini, in Greece, exploded and cause a tsunami, the water in the Red Sea receeded and they could cross, hurry!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

So they answered "We're gonna stone you not because of what you did but because of what you said. You are a man, but you make yourself God."

I have heard modern day preechers say that I am putting myself ahead of Gods word by saying I was born gay, and there is nothing wrong with it. I am a human offering my testamony and they want to wop me with a book.....

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Second, LDS doctrine says that we are all intended in the afterlife to be literal gods, each with our own universe, just like the man we know as Yahweh is the god of this universe and Jesus and Lucifer are his sons. There are many other universes, each with their own god and his wives and children.

Forget it! I don;t even want to hold public office! What the hell would I do with my own universe? If my house is any indication it would be a bloody mess for sure......

[Shakesthecoffecan]

On the other hand, many people take comfort in having an authority tell them the universe works like such-and-such. It may be very important to them, or they may just file it away. Either is fine as long as they don't hurt anybody with it.

They also need a higher power as a catch all for what goes wrong. Like when a family member flies their plane into the ground and the FAA will be 6 months coming up with a reason. The old women at the funeral speak to each other: It was Gods will, meaning some power some place was behind it for a reason we can never hope to know.

[injest]

Forget it! I don;t even want to hold public office! What the hell would I do with my own universe? If my house is any indication it would be a bloody mess for sure......

plus what the heck would you do with all those WIVES!!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

plus what the heck would you do with all those WIVES!!

Exactly! You know I think we could start a counter intelligence offensive against the Taliban by pointing out that 72 virgins won't last forever.

[Wayne]

   Y'all so funny!      OK so chapter 11 opens with Lazarus's sisters Mary and Martha in Bethany (about 2 miles from Jerusalem) sending a messenger to Jesus (presumably still on the east side of the Jordan). The message is:

"The man you love is sick."

[Wayne]

"He whom thou lovest is ailing."

Now what would we understand this to mean if this had been a woman, and the message had been "The woman you love is ailing" ?

The woman you love. She whom thou lovest. I think this would have been understood through the ages to mean his girlfriend.

Well forget that Da Vinci code silliness. This is what the Bible actually says. It was a man.

And this seems to be happening in the last week or so before Jesus is crucified. So when the narration continues talking about the man that Jesus loved, it seems likely it would be the same man.

If that is the case, then the beloved disciple is Lazarus.

Remember there were 12 Apostles, but many disciples. Mary and Martha were disciples. There's no doubt that Lazarus was a disciple; he may have been the beloved disciple.

And the gospel of John itself is the testimony of the beloved disciple (whoever the beloved disciple was).

For me so far, this hypothesis seems to hold together pretty well. Most of what we have read in this gospel has been about Jesus's activities near Jerusalem. Lazarus would have known about these things first-hand if Jesus was staying with him at Bethany each time he came to Jerusalem for the feasts that we've been reading about.

But what about that wedding at Cana where he turned water into wine? Think about who told that story - we are hearing it in the voice of Jesus's mother. Jesus's mother lived with the beloved disciple after Jesus was crucified, so this is her own contribution.

[Wayne]

DR. WDJ!

Please answer your page!

DR. WDJ!

   Hey buddy!!!          So glad to see you again!!!     

[Wayne]

     Well it is fitting that we are talking about the return of someone who had been gone for a while!!     

[injest]

HI Dana!!

 

[Artiste]

To quote moi:

Did you see that on TV? That special show presented also Pharisees buildings, one or two cities; Babal too... was she  Pharisees? She went somwhere to see a great and gave him what... like superb gifts, since she was afraid and so wanted to save herself and her queendom??

...

Did you come to a part where Queen Babal is mentioned? Or is that only in the Jewish scripts or another document (religious or non-religious)?

She did exist!!

May I ask from you and from all... too, if you like,

hugs!

[Wayne]

It's a miracle!!  Dana is back!   

[injest]

It's a miracle!!  Dana is back!   

and right when we were talking about the man that Jesus loved!! 

coincidence??

or not??

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Hey Dana, good to see you in these parts again. Hope all is going well with you.

[fritzkep]

Exactly! You know I think we could start a counter intelligence offensive against the Taliban by pointing out that 72 virgins won't last forever.

Actually, in their belief system, virgins recycle.

[fritzkep]

Dana! Really enjoyed talking with you yesterday!

[injest]

Actually, in their belief system, virgins recycle.

well that doesn't even make sense....they would still be having sex with the same girl they already had sex with...

I guess it is like all religious things...you have to go on faith..

[Artiste]

I just thought that I am realizing that some parts of some bibles in certain religions are like that about cowboys in Wyoming... it seems.

Funny!

Hugs! I guess, they were like in Annie story or the BM movie, like the Queen Baba was...

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Actually, in their belief system, virgins recycle.

I gues it depends on what your deffinaion of Is is. 

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I think this is way out in left field, but this is Jeanne Calment, the woman who lived longer than anyone else documented, and she talks about a Fig Tree.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xh0KqhgNvw[/youtube]

[Wayne]

    I'll get back to y'all soon, but in the meantime here's Lazarus by a feller named Van Gogh.