TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[SFEnnisSF]

I'd also like to resserect this topic again as well, as there may be some folks who missed it.  I myself am truly facinated by this topic.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,14647.0.html


Also, pictures from the Alberta board:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,12084.0.html

[Jeff Wrangler]

Even today, in 2008, you can go onto any online gay dating site, and you will find profiles of men who don't show their face, or have no photo.  The fear is still very much out there.

Can't say as I blame them. Once something is out there on the Internet, who knows who will find it, and how they will make use of it? 

Sorry, not meaning to turn the topic here.

[Artiste]

Moremojo, why is this so even to-day by some in our democratic countries since as you say some thought this then in the 60's...:
point of view at that time in his life, queers deserved (being killed); if Ennis came to see or admit his own queerness, then logically he must have felt deserving of such a fate too.
....
Moremorjo and to all too: how did this come about in our democratic countries?? The bible(s)? Certains religions? Or? Invented this? Why? Doesn't every person on Earth deserve to live?? - I say!!

Some First Nations regarded a homosexual man highly!! And yet many in our democratic countries disregard to-day those First Nations (we wrongfully named even to-day Indians - shame on ignorant such persons)!!

It is obvious that murder of Jack and other(s) in the BM movie is /are subjects!!

Those murdered because they were gay men, need to stand up and be counted!! - I say!! To prevent such dangers!! But nobody places the accent on prevention and education - not even on Bettermost, unfortunately, rarely so, too rarely so!!

Murder is severe, is that why, no one wants to talk about it?? Scared or scarring?? Or we think that will not happen to me. I see this as a very important issue. Do you?

Awaiting your continued courage Moremojo, and that of others,

hugs!! Let us all show support for gay lives and others to live in freedom on Earth!!

[delalluvia]

Good point, Toast. And it suggests one possible interpretation of "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

That is: He knew that Jack had died accidentally, and that Ennis had killed their sweet life. But he tried to believe that Jack had been murdered, because it was easier to face.

Well said Crayons.

Not to be a party pooper, but to comment on some postings that say "If Ennis had been there - opened himself up - he would have been able to save Jack."

Would he have?  In a situation where both were suspect in in a dangerous, confrontational situation, would Ennis have risen to the occasion?  Or would he have been paralyzed by fear?  Or not wanting to align himself with Jack in front of others - so as to be considered a 'boy like him'?  We hear about Rich and Earl.  Earl got killed.  Where was his lover?  Did he stand up for his lover?  Or not?  Would Ennis have been another Rich?

[LauraGigs]

Ennis threatened to kill Jack himself upon discovering the trips to Mexico, and their intimations of Jack's true queerness. From Ennis's point of view... queers deserved killing; if Ennis came to see or admit his own queerness, then logically he must have felt deserving of such a fate too. Certainly, Ennis's threats and maledictions would have haunted him after Jack's death; in some way or other, Ennis must have felt responsible for it.

What's interesting here is the wording: "All them things that I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them."

Awfully flowery language from a Wyoming ranch hand (although luckily it's delivered so well that it works).

Ennis is obviously in a jealous rage and speaking off the cuff, but a parallel implication is that this behavior can get you killed if it gets out.

[LauraGigs]

Would he have?  In a situation where both were suspect in in a dangerous, confrontational situation, would Ennis have risen to the occasion?  Or would he have been paralyzed by fear?  Or not wanting to align himself with Jack in front of others - so as to be considered a 'boy like him'?  We hear about Rich and Earl.  Earl got killed.  Where was his lover?  Did he stand up for his lover?  Or not?  Would Ennis have been another Rich?

Would Ennis had defended Jack if he were with him?  Absolutely.

The way that deleted scene played out though, the attackers waited until Jack was alone.  What would Randall (or Rich, or Ennis) be able to do at that point?  Standing out on Main Street after the fact yelling, "I'm here, I'm queer!" would accomplish nothing.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Well said Crayons.

Not to be a party pooper, but to comment on some postings that say "If Ennis had been there - opened himself up - he would have been able to save Jack."

Would he have?  In a situation where both were suspect in in a dangerous, confrontational situation, would Ennis have risen to the occasion?  Or would he have been paralyzed by fear?  Or not wanting to align himself with Jack in front of others - so as to be considered a 'boy like him'?  We hear about Rich and Earl.  Earl got killed.  Where was his lover?  Did he stand up for his lover?  Or not?  Would Ennis have been another Rich?

You know del, I think they would have both been killed.  Ennis had no power or control over Jack's death, whether he was there or not.  If Jack was murdered by the men with the tire irons, then they maybe would have murder him too.  Or left him lonely llikke he ended up anyway having loved adn lost

[Brown Eyes]

What's interesting here is the wording: "All them things that I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them."

Awfully flowery language from a Wyoming ranch hand (although luckily it's delivered so well that it works).

My favorite thing about Ennis's big threat about Mexico in that fight is how totally and completely un-intimidated Jack is by Ennis's bluster.  Jack just pushes right back with his own issues and complaints.  I love that.

[Brokeback_Dev]

My favorite thing about Ennis's big threat about Mexico in that fight is how totally and completely un-intimidated Jack is by Ennis's bluster.  Jack just pushes right back with his own issues and complaints.  I love that.

Thats a very good point.  Ennis wasnt gonna get over on Jack with his threats or jealousies..  Jack was not loyal to Ennis, but Ennis was too ashamed of himself to find out if there was something or somebody else to keep him happy.   And we all know it wasnt Cassie. 

[delalluvia]

What's interesting here is the wording: "All them things that I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them."

Awfully flowery language from a Wyoming ranch hand (although luckily it's delivered so well that it works).

Flowery?     Personally, I thought it was pretty ignorant and phrased so awkwardly as to be unbelievable had Heath not been as good an actor as he is to pull that out of his teeth and make it seem real.