Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion

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When Amanda (atz75) brought up the idea of a Sarah Waters Books/Movies Discussion thread, I loved it immediately.  So here it is. 

Got no idea who Sarah Waters is?  Visit her website and check out her work...

I personally think that she is an excellent writer and storyteller and I am always willing to discuss her stories with others. 
The banner above shows the four books she has published to date:

• Tipping the Velvet
• Affinity
• FingerSmith
• The Night Watch

I am not sure which book we should start with..
Amanda?...Want to take it from here? 

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Bud!!

Thanks so much for starting this!  Your image for the thread in the first post is lovely.  And, it's really helpful to have a link to her website.

It seems to me that the most overarching thing to understand about Waters is that she writes period-novels using very traditional writing styles and writing tone reminiscent of whatever period she's writing about... but she'll re-insert the gay characters into the narrative (they're usually the protagonists in her stories) that are often erased in traditional literature.

I think we should start with Tipping the Velvet, only because it seems to be the most well-known.  I watch the mini-series on DVD all the time.  It's sort of one of my fun "comfort" things to watch when there's nothing on TV or when I'm not watching BBM (lol).

In honor of this thread, I think I'll reread the book this long-weekend and remind myself of the differences that may exist between the book and the mini-series.  At the moment, the mini-series is much more familiar to me since it's been a while since I read the book.

Of her four books, I recall that my favorite is Fingersmith, followed by Tipping the Velvet.  I think the mini-series of Tipping the Velvet is much better than the two-part series on Fingersmith.  I just think the story and the amazing plot twist in Fingersmith are amazing in terms of pure story-telling.  There's something much more straight-forward to me about the way Tipping the Velvet progresses as a narrative.

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That is a wonderfully eloquent intro to Ms Waters work, Amanda.  I am rubbish at writing intro posts, lol.. but now that we got the ball rolling, I am looking forward to the discussions we'll have in here. 


I have spent many entertaining hours reading Sarah’s books and I’ve fallen for her characters every time. 

Affinity may not be as popular as Fingersmith or Tipping the Velvet but I enjoyed it immensely and was very much affected by it.  It was such a sad depressing story, with a heartwrenchingly twisted ending as you know, but I got so into it I could not put it down.  The story reads to me like a rather dark, yet sensuous poem.  I thought going back and forth between Selena and Margaret’s journals in the past and present was brilliant.  I loved putting the pieces together as I went along.  It will be hard to read again, especially knowing how things unfold and how it ends, but I still can’t wait to get into it when we get to it.


I feel I’ve had a fuller experience of Tipping the Velvet and FingerSmith thanks to the TV adaptations that put faces to the characters I enjoyed reading about so much.  When I first watched Fingersmith, it was after I had seen Tipping the Velvet more than 10 times already.  I liked it but I didn’t get as emotionally involved in it as I did with TTV.  Then I bought the Fingersmith novel over a month ago actually, and started reading; I couldn’t put it down.  When I was done reading, I went back and watched the movie and loved it even more than I imagined.  I have watched it several times since and still get engrossed in Maud and Susan and how their love grew.  I do think that the Fingersmith TV adaptation was truer to its novel than Tipping the Velvet was to its own novel, but I have been able to find a common place where Nan and Kitty and Flo from the novel & movie come together and mesh rather nicely.


The Night Watch was the one out of Sarah’s books that seemed to have a thoroughly different tone/voice to it.  I was intrigued by the layout of the book, how she started at the present day and ended in the past.  I enjoyed it a lot though not with the same intensity as FingerSmith, TTV and even Affinity.

I read an article that stated that Affinity and The Night Watch will be adapted to TV movies this year or so.  I am keeping an eye out for updates on that front (& for Sarah’s next book, of course)

Okay, as you said, we’ll start with Tipping the Velvet.  I think I’ll have to go and reread major portions, if not all of the book as well.

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Hey Amanda,

Since we settled on a "what tickles your fancy" approach for this thread...
There is something I need to get off my chest.. 

After reading TTV (which was after falling in love with the TV version of the story), I found myself wishing they'd kept Florence true to SW's character.  Don't get me wrong, I love Movie!Flo; I think Jodhi May did a fine job with her.  But... SW's Flo had somewhat more intensity and was the more experienced of the pair (another aspect of the story that was 'reversed' in the movie).
I remember reading an interesting SW interview where she talks about this "role reversal".  I hunted it down and here it is:


There are a couple of scenes where Nancy takes Florence to a gay pub and in the book, it's the other way around. I still would've preferred to have kept it that way because the whole point is that it's Nancy's sexual education in the book and its crucial she gets that from Florence rather than initiating Florence into a queer world. I felt it was maybe something to do with the mainstreaming of Tipping, that actually mainstream culture can handle coming-out stories but actually to present grown-up lesbians in a grown-up lesbian world of their own was too much. They had to have it that Florence was all innocent.

{ http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/books/features/sarah-waters-interview.shtml }


Interesting, isn't it? 

[Brown Eyes]

It's been a while since I've read the book of Tipping the Velvet (I didn't get a chance to re-read it like I had hoped to this past weekend).  But, from what I recall of Flo in the book, I think you're right.  In the mini-series, Flo is made to seem very domestic, extremely earnest... and just the type of girl one would be expected to "settle down with."  In a way, I feel like the conclusion of the mini-series... especially with the particular song that Nan's singing on stage... is all about the decision to "settle down and be comfortable."  Flo in the book was definitely more sexually experienced and adventurous than her character in the film... at least from what I recall.  It's honestly a little hard for me to imagine anyone being more experienced than Nan following her relationship with Diana Lethaby (either in the film or book).
 

The whole Diana segment of the book felt a little preposterous to me when I first read it.  But, I love that segment of the mini-series.  I think Anna Chancellor did a brilliant job with that character and... I totally love her voice.  I find the way she speaks, especially right when her character is introduced in the carriage, completely mesmerizing. 
<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/thumb/3559174-843.jpg" border="0" />


It's interesting to me that Flo's character was made significantly more "wholesome", while many aspects of the Diana segment really weren't toned down too much (or I could imagine that the Diana segment could have been significantly more watered-down than it was).  Trying to imagine a decadent, rather mean-spirited, upper-crust lesbian society like Diana's is definitely pretty interesting, and I'm sure not something that a "mainstream" audience would have been expecting.  Maybe in order to keep the Diana segment rather scandalous... the film makers decided to tone-down the Flo character.

But, you're point is definitely well taken.

What did you think of how Flo's brother is portrayed in the film and in the story?

Hey Amanda,

Since we settled on a "what tickles your fancy" approach for this thread...
There is something I need to get off my chest.. 

After reading TTV (which was after falling in love with the TV version of the story), I found myself wishing they'd kept Florence true to SW's character.  Don't get me wrong, I love Movie!Flo; I think Jodhi May did a fine job with her.  But... SW's Flo had somewhat more intensity and was the more experienced of the pair (another aspect of the story that was 'reversed' in the movie).
I remember reading an interesting SW interview where she talks about this "role reversal".  I hunted it down and here it is:


There are a couple of scenes where Nancy takes Florence to a gay pub and in the book, it's the other way around. I still would've preferred to have kept it that way because the whole point is that it's Nancy's sexual education in the book and its crucial she gets that from Florence rather than initiating Florence into a queer world. I felt it was maybe something to do with the mainstreaming of Tipping, that actually mainstream culture can handle coming-out stories but actually to present grown-up lesbians in a grown-up lesbian world of their own was too much. They had to have it that Florence was all innocent.

{ http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/books/features/sarah-waters-interview.shtml }


Interesting, isn't it? 

[Brown Eyes]

Tipping the Velvet 2009?!!!

Heya!  I was just searching imdb for some info on the old Tipping the Velvet mini series and I discovered a listing for 2009!  But, when you click on the link it says that info can only be found through imdb Pro.

Have you heard any rumors about another film version of this book?

http://www.imdb.com/find?s=tt&q=tippin+the+velvet&x=14&y=10

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I see your point about post-Diana Nancy! 

I suppose Nan might've been experienced in the "sexual act" but was very much a novice/innocent in the sense that she didn't know the ins & outs of the "queer lifestyle" like Flo did... like she'd never been to a queer bar and was amazed to see all the other "toms" dressed in men's clothes like she usually did.

  I'll have to go and re-read a few sections, I'm sure. 

What did you think of how Flo's brother is portrayed in the film and in the story?

Movie!Ralph was a darling.  Who wouldn't want a brother or friend like him? 
I loved his compassionate, shy nature..
I particularly loved the scene where he stumbles into Flo and Nan sleeping together after their night out.  It was too adorable.
Gosh, I'm gonna have to go read the story again..  . .but was Book!Ralph that different from Movie!Ralph?

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Re: Tipping the Velvet 2009..

I had already heard and read on a few sites that Sofia Coppola is working on a TTV movie.

There were rumours online that two actresses who'd signed on to the project were Eva Longoria and Beyonce Knowles..
But it turned out to be just that - a rumour.

Good, 'cause I didn't know how well that would've worked out. lol.

[Brown Eyes]

I'll have to re-read myself in order to compare mini-series Ralph to book-Ralph.  But, he was great in the mini series for sure.  I think the two of them (Ralph and Flo) are meant to be Nan's enticement to "settle down" and build "a cozy little nest" as she sings at the end.  I think in the film, they go out of their way to show that Nan really wants to find a stable and secure way to live with a woman permanently.  And, with Flo and her brother she's found a really great scenario.  There are certain aspects of Flo in the mini series that really are very lovely and appealing.

Again, you're right that Flo's character is made more "wholesome" in the process.  If I recall correctly, in the book it's Flo... not even Diana who introduces Nan to some of the most intense aspects of lesbian sexuality.

You're right that in a certain way... with Diana, Nancy is very sheltered... but sheltered within a very particular/closed society.  Still, I do understand how in the mini-series it's interpreted that Nan would have understood the world of lesbian bars, etc. through her identity as a theatre person.  It's believable to me at least.  I really liked how the lesbian bar was portrayed in the mini-series.  And, I thought it was cute that Nan had fans in the room who recognized her and talked about how much of a role model she and Kitty had been.

The way the mini-series is filmed is very wistful.  There's something about it's tone that seems very specific and really rather unusual.  But, I think the overall effect is really great.  On a basic level, it's just nice to see a complicated lesbian story taken so seriously and also becoming so popular.

I see your point about post-Diana Nancy! 

I suppose Nan might've been experienced in the "sexual act" but was very much a novice/innocent in the sense that she didn't know the ins & outs of the "queer lifestyle" like Flo did... like she'd never been to a queer bar and was amazed to see all the other "toms" dressed in men's clothes like she usually did.

  I'll have to go and re-read a few sections, I'm sure. 


Movie!Ralph was a darling.  Who wouldn't want a brother or friend like him? 
I loved his compassionate, shy nature..
I particularly loved the scene where he stumbles into Flo and Nan sleeping together after their night out.  It was too adorable.
Gosh, I'm gonna have to go read the story again..  . .but was Book!Ralph that different from Movie!Ralph?

[Brown Eyes]

Re: Tipping the Velvet 2009..

I had already heard and read on a few sites that Sofia Coppola is working on a TTV movie.

There were rumours online that two actresses who'd signed on to the project were Eva Longoria and Beyonce Knowles..
But it turned out to be just that - a rumour.

Good, 'cause I didn't know how well that would've worked out. lol.

I really like Sofia Coppola... I could imagine her doing a great job directing and interpreting Tipping the Velvet in a new movie.  It's hard to imagine either of those actresses in Tipping the Velvet... but who knows.  Anyway, I hadn't heard any of these rumors until tonight.  But, well... at least it really is still listed on imdb.  I actually like the mini-series so well, it's hard to imagine another version.

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You are right about the miniseries and I too liked the scenes at the lesbian bar...
Of course, it was also the setting where the phrase "tipping the velvet" was used in the film. 


Having said all I've said about Flo in the movie vs. the novel, I really enjoyed Florence in the miniseries as portrayed by Jodhi May.

I am sure we'll discuss Flo fully down the road, but..
I remember one scene in particular when she stands in the shadows and watches Nan sing to little Cyril in the kitchen.  Flo's expression in that scene has always stayed with me - it was filled with awe, lust, hunger and a sort of repressed excitement all in one.  Loved it. 


*sigh*
All this talk of TTV is getting to me..lol.. I think I'll pop the DVD in shortly..

[Brown Eyes]

You are right about the miniseries and I too liked the scenes at the lesbian bar...
Of course, it was also the setting where the phrase "tipping the velvet" was used in the film. 

  Yeah... I think they really had to explain the title somehow and somewhere.  It's a cute conversation... and again it just goes to your point about Flo being pretty naive in the mini-series.  I mean, I don't think it takes all that much imagination to figure out what the phrase might be an innuendo about...

I wish they had used the word "tom" more in the mini-series.  It's such an interesting thing to realize that "tom" and "tomboy" are completely archaic slang for lesbians.  It's honestly something I learned from the book TTV (nice abbreviation by the way  ).

I remember one scene in particular when she stands in the shadows and watches Nan sing to little Cyril in the kitchen.  Flo's expression in that scene has always stayed with me - it was filled with awe, lust, hunger and a sort of repressed excitement all in one.  Loved it. 


*sigh*
All this talk of TTV is getting to me..lol.. I think I'll pop the DVD in shortly..

Yeah, that's a great moment when the viewer really gets a sense of how much Flo really is developing feelings for Nan.

I totally love the complexities of what Nan looks like when she's in her role as nurse to Cyril.  Here I'm referring to moments when she's wearing her stereotypical milkmaid outfit (with the long skirt, market basket, etc.) walking down the street holding him... and one particular scene where she's standing in line with a bunch of other women and she's holding Cyril... those scenes really make you realize how invisible lesbians can be and have been in history.  In those scenes (just looking at her with the long skirt and baby, etc.)... you'd never, never in a million years think that's what a lesbian looks like.  I think it's really brilliant. 

And, the overall complexities of the family dynamic that falls into place with Flo is pretty amazing too. I mean, again, just looking at Nan holding the baby, from a distance no one would ever suspect that the baby belonged to the ex-girlfriend of her current girlfriend.  I love how those scenes at the end thoroughly re-configure conventional domesticity into something that ends up being very pleasant for Flo, Nan and Ralph.

There's definitely a lot of chemistry between Nan and Flo and the actresses are great at conveying a lot with their eyes I think.  I love the scene on the bench with Ralph and the baby where Nan and Flo exchanges those flirty, quick glances. (Again, that's a scene where you'd think passersby would never, never guess the reality of Nan and Flo's identities... especially Nan's with her complex history).



I just watched Fingersmith not too long ago.  But, now, I agree, I'll definitely re-watch TTV tomorrow after work.

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I just watched Fingersmith not too long ago.  But, now, I agree, I'll definitely re-watch TTV tomorrow after work. ..

I'll re-watch it too and we can carry on our discussion from there, how's that?

I love these discussions, btw, Amanda. 

Night!
~M

[Brown Eyes]

Heya,

I'm here to bring up a topic that's been raised quite a bit recently in the "Bisexuality" thread in Safe Haven... having to do with gaydar and feeling confident about making a "first-move" with a member of the same sex.  Of course, the nervousness and anxiety over this has a lot to do with basic fear of rejection... that all people probably face regardless of sexual orientation.  But, in a same-sex scenario... there's the added fear and pressure of wondering if you're reading the person correctly in even assessing if they're open to having a relationship with a same-sex partner.

This really seems to be a point or issue that's raised strongly in Tipping the Velvet in both the book and the mini-series.  There's such a long, drawn out point towards the beginning when Nan and Kitty are in a "just friends / just roommates" situation where both of them aren't understanding the other's interest and the mutual crush developing between them.  I mean, I think it's meant to be clear to the viewer of the mini-series that Nan, being very naive about lesbian culture at this point in the story, is just completely missing huge signals and clues about Kitty.  I love those scenes where Nan and Kitty are lying in their shared bed in the apartment and Nan is so desparately trying to figure out how to convey her feelings for Kitty.  And, her fear is the fear of a lot of lesbians/bisexuals I think... the fear of ruining a friendship or somehow causing offense.

I love the scene the morning after Kitty and Nan are together for the first time when Nan said she didn't realize that two women even could "go all the way" together... and then Kitty's reply indicates that she's probably dated a healthy number of women.  I think that little scene is just so gorgeous... I mean the way it's filmed... the lighting... the way the women look, etc.  Really lovely.

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Glad you revived the thread, Amanda. 


I agree with you.

Nancy knew the second she saw Kitty that she was attracted to her, even if she didn't know what that translated to in the real lives of two women at that time.  Remember the scene where she tried to tell of her feelings for Kitty to her sister, Alice (after she saw Kitty's performance at the theater).  She couldn't even find the words to adequately describe them, except to say that the sight of Kitty made her want to weep and smile at the same time; it made her sore in her chest.  She didn't seem to realize at that time that what she was feeling was a strong (perhaps sexual) attraction to Kitty.

I don't think it ever occurred to her that Kitty could ever reciprocate her feelings.  She held Kitty on such a pedestal, she never really grasped the possibility that Kitty could ever want to be anything more than "sisters".

I too really enjoy the "morning after" scene & the way it was shot in that little room they shared together.  Nancy's body language had changed, her eyes were brighter and I would even go as far as saying that you could sense that a load had been lifted off her shoulders.  When she asked Kitty, "Didn't you guess how I felt about you?" ... Kitty replied along the lines of, "I couldn't be sure...it's always easier to be friends.."  That sums it up pretty nicely.  Until someone takes a risk and steps into unfamiliar territory, a romance/love that could've blossomed stays repressed, who knows for how long. 
[Take BBM for example, if Jack had not taken the risk he did that night, the story would've turned out quite differently, I'm sure.  ]

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I thought a few pics to liven up the discussions...


Morning after...

[Lynne]

I ordered Tipping the Velvet tonight on Amazon...

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I hope you join us here for the discussion after you've watched it Lynne.. 

[Lynne]

Thanks, Milli - I will try to!  But I ordered the book, not the DVD...maybe I'll have to order both?

[Lumière]

Come join us anyway when you've finished your reading or during...whenever you like.
Hope you enjoy the book.  Sarah Waters' story-telling skills are genius. 

[Brown Eyes]

Howdy Lynne!  It's so great to see you here on this thread.   Sorry for the belated welcome... I was away from BetterMost for one day (Friday), and now I feel like I have a million things to catch up with.  Things definitely move fast around here.

I hope you like the book.  It really is a good story and Waters is a truly talented writer I think.  I read the book long before I saw the mini-series (it's a 3 part series by the BBC that was then was put out on DVD... all 3 episodes are on one DVD).  And, I do sort of think it's good to read the book first. I say this because I think the mini-series is so visually powerful, etc. that it will probably really influence how the book seems to you.  I saw BBM before I read Proulx's story, which has always made it hard for me to have a completely independent sense of the story.

But, if you can swing it, I completely recommend getting the DVD of Tipping the Velvet at some point.  It's really awesome.  Actually, it's one of my favorite "comfort" things to watch, especially if I'm in the mood to de-stress over something or other.

Can't wait to hear what you think of the book. 

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So, Amanda, did you watch TTV recently? 

[Brown Eyes]

Hi M,

Yes, I did watch TTV recently and I also watched Fingersmith recently.  I wonder if there are any plans in the works to do screen versions of Affinity or Night Watch?  I feel like I'm so much more familiar with TTV and Fingersmith because I've been able to watch them repeatedly while I've only read Affinity and Night Watch once each.  I remember really liking Affinity... and I bet it could be really cool in cinematic form.  I may have to re-read Night Watch.  That's the book of Waters' that's never struck me as much as the others.  But, I feel like I should give it another chance.

So, I was thinking more about the "morning after" scene between Kitty and Nan and that lovely image of Kitty washing up at the nightstand and basin.  It's interesting how that vision of Kitty as well as Nan's memory of that very early "like a mermaid" moment replay in Nan's mind over and over again throughout the TTV series.  I guess that must be all about how strong an impression "first love" can make.  For a long time too, I've been trying to think of 19th century models for some of the imagery that's used in TTV (19th century art is my main interest in art history).  I think finding examples of real 19th century imagery that's reminiscent of TTV is really important and interesting for the question of lesbian visibility or invisibility.  This goes back to an earlier comment I made about the later scenes where Nan is dressed like a milkmaid and is going about town to the market with Cyril on her hip, etc.  And, based on those glimpses of her you'd never in a million years suspect her true lesbian identity or the extent of the experience she'd had (i.e. Diana, etc.). 

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778950-3e1.jpeg" border="0" />

In these period pieces the moments when the women are dressed as women in their beautiful dresses (not in their men's costumes, etc.) really highlight the dilemma of how to recognize the classic question of "what does a lesbian look like?".

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778897-c0d.jpg" border="0" /><img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778899-8da.jpg" border="0" />



Anyway, my long-winded point here about images of women from the 19th century... is that this print by Mary Cassatt always makes me think of Kitty washing-up on that "morning after."  This color etching and aquatint was made around 1890.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778898-381.jpg" border="0" />

Do you happen to have an image of Kitty from this "morning after" scene in TTV?  I haven't been able to find one online.  I think it's interesting to try to think of possible 19th century images that might have inspired some of the "look" of TTV beyond the perhaps most obvious examples (being photos and posters from 19th century vaudeville shows and male impersonators).

The timing and that dating for the actual period for TTV has always made me wonder a bit.  Do we know during what year(s) TTV is supposed to take place?  I don't recall a specific date or date range mentioned in the book (although it's been a while since I've read it). 

Last time I watched Fingersmith I was excited to note a prop being used in the Lant Street apartment that indicated the year.  It's actually a calendar that they're using to countdown to the girls' birthdays.  Anyway, I think I recall it saying it was supposed to be 1861.

[Lumière]

Loved your post, Amanda! 

I wonder if there are any plans in the works to do screen versions of Affinity or Night Watch?

Yes, I read somewhere (possibly in an online interview with SW or on her site, can't remember) that Affinity and The Night Watch are also due to be produced as movies sometime this year.  I absolutely loved reading Affinity and I really hope that it is adapted properly.  It has so much potential of becoming a stunning piece if it is well done.  We'll see, I'm keeping an eye out for those..

In these period pieces the moments when the women are dressed as women in their beautiful dresses (not in their men's costumes, etc.) really highlight the dilemma of how to recognize the classic question of "what does a lesbian look like?".

Couldn't agree with you more on this point. 
When dressed in their elegant women's clothes, you couldn't tell by looking at any of the ladies: Kitty, Nan, Flo, Diana.. that they were "toms".

Diana was in a different league though.  As respectable as she looked, she was clearly more open about her sexuality than the other ladies.  She was frequently escorted to very public occasions by the "boy" in her life and she seemed to have absolutely no worries as to how that might be interpreted by others.  My guess is that she must've also been known outside her household for her Sapphist gatherings as well (I would imagine her servants gossiped about it..).  She probably didn't care what others thought of her because she was wealthy, independent (financially & otherwise) and didn't necessarily need anything from anybody to lead a comfortable life.. I am sure we'll discuss Diana to some length in the very near future..

Back to Nan - I think she knew how to blend in when the situation/circumstances called for it. You had to back then, I would imagine.
I don't know if she was more comfortable in men's clothes or not... what do you think?   She certainly looked good dressed either way..

Do you happen to have an image of Kitty from this "morning after" scene in TTV?

I don't have that picture (will hunt for it when I get a chance..)

The timing and that dating for the actual period for TTV has always made me wonder a bit.  Do we know during what year(s) TTV is supposed to take place?

Good question.  I know that TTV is set in the 1880s but I don't know the exact dates.  I wonder now if the dates are actually revealed in the book .. must be somewhere.

Another "morning after" pic for you...

[Brown Eyes]

Hey M!

I'm so glad we got this thread going.  The more I think about this subject, especially TTV, the more interesting some of the issues become.  It's super fun to have someone to discuss all this with!
 

Couldn't agree with you more on this point. 
When dressed in their elegant women's clothes, you couldn't tell by looking at any of the ladies: Kitty, Nan, Flo, Diana.. that they were "toms".

Diana was in a different league though.  As respectable as she looked, she was clearly more open about her sexuality than the other ladies.  She was frequently escorted to very public occasions by the "boy" in her life and she seemed to have absolutely no worries as to how that might be interpreted by others.  My guess is that she must've also been known outside her household for her Sapphist gatherings as well (I would imagine her servants gossiped about it..).  She probably didn't care what others thought of her because she was wealthy, independent (financially & otherwise) and didn't necessarily need anything from anybody to lead a comfortable life.. I am sure we'll discuss Diana to some length in the very near future..

Yes, I think you're absolutely right about Diana.  I think part of the point of her character is to show what a difference class differences and money could make (to a certain extent) when it came to freedom of expression in terms of sexuality.  Diana is so over-the-top in her decadent lifestyle.  She's just amazing (in good and bad ways)... and I'll keep saying it... I totally, totally love Anna Chancellor's voice (especially when she's first introduced in the carriage).  The way she speaks is sort of mesmerizing to me. Oh yes... 
 

She's also an interesting figure in showing that there are competitive layers to lesbian society and that not all lesbians are necessarily benevolent towards other lesbians (given her abusiveness to Nan and Zelda, etc.). 

I love that you used the word Sapphist!  That's such an awesome word.  Apparently, Virginia Woolf liked to refer to herself as a Sapphist.  I think it's a totally elegant word for lesbian.

Back to Nan - I think she knew how to blend in when the situation/circumstances called for it. You had to back then, I would imagine.
I don't know if she was more comfortable in men's clothes or not... what do you think?   She certainly looked good dressed either way..

Oh definitely, Rachel Stirling is gorgeous as Nan.  I think her face looks like a porcelain doll.  Just beautiful and perfect for this kind of period piece.   It's also amazing how good she really does look dressed in both her boy's clothes and her girl's clothes.  It's sort of surprising to realize how androgynous she can look.  The androgynous look can be really sexy.

Yes, I think that when Flo and Nan are having their first real conversation walking through the streets together (when they're making plans to go to tea and the lecture)... I think Flo has that wonderful, no-big-deal response to Nan's revelation that she likes to wear men's clothing.  When they talk about the advantages of being able to "change and change about" and the numerous times that Nan reflects on how much more freedom she felt dressed as a man... it seems clear that Nan probably slightly preferred wearing men's clothing.  I think this is primarily a reaction against some of the oppressions she feels as a woman in terms of being hassled on the streets and other social/political constraints.  I don't think it at all means that she wants to be a man.  Also, once she settles in to being the "housekeeper" for Flo and Ralph she decides to start wearing pants again, etc.  So, I do think there's a personal comfort level for her when she's wearing men's clothing.

This whole issue of switching back and forth between men's clothing and women's clothing is very interesting even at the very beginning when she meets Kitty in her dressing room.  I love that when Kitty comes out in her purple dress she looks at Nan and asks "bit of a let down?"  And, I love the look in Nan's eye when it's clear that she's still totally turned on by Kitty... in a dress or in a tux.  Poor Kitty... I wish we knew a little bit more about how her life went after she married Walter.  I think what she did to Nan is awful.  But, I also feel very sorry for Kitty... because my sense is that she really is a lesbian who decided to marry Walter for stability.  It's so tragic that she comes begging back to Nan at the end.  I have a feeling that Kitty's circumstance probably happened to a lot of lesbians throughout history.  And it makes me very sad.
 


Yeah, I'd love it if a pic of Kitty at the washstand could be found.  I'm surprise that it's so hard given how prominent that image is in TTV (and how often it's replayed in Nan's mind).  By the way... when doing image searched on yahoo and google for Keeley Hawes... you come up with a lot of hot images!  So, it's sort of fun doing this research.  I'll keep looking for this image too.

[Lumière]

More on the discussion and on your last post soon, Amanda.. 

But for now, here is a pic of Nan & baby Cyril..





Her identity and past experiences disappear into those clothes don't they?  She just becomes a girl carrying a little child on her hip.  Love that.

[Brown Eyes]

More on the discussion and on your last post soon, Amanda.. 

But for now, here is a pic of Nan & baby Cyril..





Her identity and past experiences disappear into those clothes don't they?  She just becomes a girl carrying a little child on her hip.  Love that.

Thanks for that great picture M!

Yeah, Nan certainly transforms over and over and over again throughout TTV.  And this particular "milkmaid" type incarnation somehow seems particularly interesting... again in terms of lesbian visibility.  I love all the complexities in the true family dynamics that emerge between Nan, Flo, Cyril and Ralph.   There's so much love (by the end) between all these characters, it's really charming. The fact that Cyril's the son of another woman with whom Flo had been in love, just adds a whole different layer of complexity.

What do you make of Flo's story about Cyril's mother (I think her name was Lillian)?  That seems like such a huge, huge back-story.  Does it sound to you like Lillian loved Flo in return?  I can never really tell if we're supposed to believe Lillian and Flo had a true affair... or if their relationship was mostly just a really intense platonic friendship.  Flo seemed so naive about things (in a certain way) that I really wonder about how she was perceiving that relationship with Lillian.  Essentially, was it an unrequited-love situation for Flo?

[Artiste]

Has anyone seen On The Waterfront 1954??

With many known actors in it, even Marlon Brando!!

Were they all known then??

What do you think of that movie??

Hugs!

[Lumière]

Has anyone seen On The Waterfront 1954??
With many known actors in it, even Marlon Brando!!
Were they all known then??
What do you think of that movie??

Hugs!

Hey Artiste,

This thread is dedicated to the books by the author Sarah Waters and movies that were created from them.
Maybe you could post your question in the "Ressurecting the Movies" thread ...

Cheers,
~M

[Lumière]

...
What do you make of Flo's story about Cyril's mother (I think her name was Lillian)?  That seems like such a huge, huge back-story.  Does it sound to you like Lillian loved Flo in return?  I can never really tell if we're supposed to believe Lillian and Flo had a true affair... or if their relationship was mostly just a really intense platonic friendship.  Flo seemed so naive about things (in a certain way) that I really wonder about how she was perceiving that relationship with Lillian.  Essentially, was it an unrequited-love situation for Flo?

You are so right about the complexities/layers in the little family unit Flo, Ralph, Nan & Cyril made together.  Just goes to show Love makes a family, doesn’t it?

Re: Flo & Lillian –
I think that there are different answers to your questions depending on whether we are referring to Flo from the movie or the book.

In the book, SW provided us with a more detailed look at what Lillian & Flo’s relationship might have been like.  I definitely gathered that they loved each other deeply (more than platonic friends).  If I recall correctly, in the book, Nan and Flo had more conversations about Lillian than they did in the film.  In the book, when Nan’s feelings for Flo started to surface, she began to resent Lillian’s memory a little, especially because Flo talked about her a lot and probably went on about how wonderful and deep their connection was.   I randomly recall the scene in the book where Nan decides to clean the house when Ralph and Flo were out…she sees this dusty rug lying around (a rug that was made for Flo by Lillian), as well as a picture of a ‘heavy-browed’ woman (who she gathers was Lillian) and from her narrative, we can see that she is starting to despise this woman who has such a grip on Flo’s heart.  There is no doubt in my mind that Flo & Lillian were lovers in the novel.  I can’t recall if she said so explicitly but I am certain that the subject of her intimacy with Lillian came up in one of her conversations with Nan.


In the movie, well, it is a bit more ambiguous.  There is only one scene where we get to hear about Lillian and Flo’s love for her, as well as her loss.  It was such a wonderful scene – tears spilling from Flo’s eyes as she tells her story, Nan feeling for her but also holding out hope that Flo would see her in a different light (not as a replacement for Lillian but a possible object of Flo’s affections).  It is clear to us that Flo loved Lillian deeply but we are not completely sure whether they were lovers or not, though we get the impression that they were very close.  Personally, I think that they were lovers.  I can’t think of solid evidence from the movie to back it up just now, but it is just a strong sense I get. ;-) 


Let’s turn to Ralph for a sec…
When he came into the living room that morning and found Nan and Flo lying together after their night out at the lesbian bar, he didn’t seem surprised or upset by it… he was a little embarrassed if anything.  No doubt he was aware of her sexuality and was accustomed to the idea that his sister’s lover would be a woman.  How wonderful it must’ve been for Flo to have such an open-minded and loving brother, especially at a time when it was so undoubtedly unacceptable to be queer.  I love that he accepted her, despite what the neighbors might've said. 


Here’s a pic from Nan and Flo’s first “morning-after” scene..

[Lumière]

Since we are already talking about Nan's various transformations in TTV, I thought some 'photographic evidence' would be a good idea. =)
Hopefully some of the pictures will inspire some more discussions as well.


**~**~**~**~**~**


Nan as a fresh-faced oyster-girl, infatuated (possibly in love) and confused about her emerging feelings for Kitty...




"Now, I'm like you"...
I loved this scene when Nan looks at herself after her haircut.  Her expression brings one word to mind: Awakening.




"I could fall for a boy like you.."  the way Kitty delivers that line in this scene... loved it.




I like how she exudes confidence and even a touch of arrogance in this scene..




Working the streets as a young soldier.. That old john was creepy as heck. lol..




"Evenin' sweetheart.." Nan notices Flo for the first time..
Still overcoming her Kitty-blues and starting to get a sense of her "old self" back..




An introduction to the Sapphist Socialite lifestyle..




And one of my faves..
The beginnings of a family.. 

[Brown Eyes]

Hi M!

Thanks so much for all these pictures.   Nan (and Kitty too really) certainly are chameleons.  I still really wonder if this might be some kind of comment on how lesbians in generations gone-by (and even now) have either worked to blend into conventional society or stand-out (to other lesbians) through a lot of deliberate manipulations of dress and image. 

Let’s turn to Ralph for a sec…
When he came into the living room that morning and found Nan and Flo lying together after their night out at the lesbian bar, he didn’t seem surprised or upset by it… he was a little embarrassed if anything.  No doubt he was aware of her sexuality and was accustomed to the idea that his sister’s lover would be a woman.  How wonderful it must’ve been for Flo to have such an open-minded and loving brother, especially at a time when it was so undoubtedly unacceptable to be queer.  I love that he accepted her, despite what the neighbors might've said. 

Ralph is such a great character.  I love how Nan describes him as "gentle" and with no motivations besides kindness when it came to helping her from the beginning.  And, I totally love how Nan helped him with his political rally that he cared so much about.  And, yes, I do think Ralph must have known about Flo's sexuality prior to Nan... especially if Lillian had lived with them for a time and they've now found themselves in the position of raising Cyril.

I suspect we're supposed to see Ralph as a true "progressive" in every sense (and the best sense) of that word.  I also think he's helpful to demonstrating how lesbians and men can be great friends and very helpful to one another given the right circumstances and mutual respect.

One other thing I find interesting about Ralph is the very end when he's watching Nan perform on stage.  When Nan's singing about "settling" down and forming "a cozy little nest"... in one sense she's sort of referring to what she already has with Flo, Ralph and Cyril.  But, there's a moment when Ralph's listening and he sort of looks down and looks wistful... and I wonder if he's thinking about finding a partner for himself.


So, on another topic relating to TTV... how do you feel about the representation of Kitty and Nan's first kiss... and the sort of explosive way that they reveal their feelings to each other in the carriage following the dinner/dancing out?  Kitty gets so angry all of a sudden watching Nan dancing with the guy from the band.  It's interesting that this was the moment that tipped the balance and made the situation clear to both Kitty and Nan.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3859591-62b.jpg" border="0" />

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3859589-35c.jpeg" border="0" />

[Brown Eyes]

"Evenin' sweetheart.." Nan notices Flo for the first time..
Still overcoming her Kitty-blues and starting to get a sense of her "old self" back..

Just one more comment for now... This is such an interesting scene.  Where she senses her first spark of attraction to Flo.  It's totally fascinating to see how negatively Flo reacts to Nan calling out to her with that "evening sweetheart" comment.  It's clear that Flo has no idea that Nan's a woman... and you get the sense that Flo is reacting defensively to Nan exactly as she would to any guy on the street who hassled her or made an unwanted pass at her.  And, then later, when Flo and Nan meet on the street and Nan is dressed in women's clothing... Flo just lights up when she realizes that Nan was the real source of the "evening sweetheart."  I think Flo's reaction to the two instances of meeting Nan is one clue that Nan is using to try to figure out if Flo is a "tom" too.

[Lumière]

So, on another topic relating to TTV... how do you feel about the representation of Kitty and Nan's first kiss... and the sort of explosive way that they reveal their feelings to each other in the carriage following the dinner/dancing out?  Kitty gets so angry all of a sudden watching Nan dancing with the guy from the band.  It's interesting that this was the moment that tipped the balance and made the situation clear to both Kitty and Nan.

I love the portrayal of their first kiss.
It was brought on by a single event, a dance, that sent Kitty's jealousy spilling over the line they were both trying very hard not to cross.
Kitty's reaction surprised Nan as we see after Kitty storms out.  One of my favorite scenes in the movie.. 

And then when they are in the carriage, Kitty says:  "Sometimes I don't think you care at all for my feelings.." to which Nan replies, "Oh Kitty..if you knew.." - wonderful moment.  Everything was exposed at that point.  Who knew how much time they might've spent tiptoeing around each other, never revealing their true feelings, if that night hadn't happened?  It was a revelation.

I really enjoyed the way those crucial scenes were delivered in the movie.  I think this is one instance where I almost prefer the movie version of their first kiss to the way it was originally written in the book.  The movie also added the line Kitty says in the carriage: "I hate the way you make me feel..".  Simple words that reveal her helplessness and the fact that she is falling for Nan. 

Do you think that Walter Bliss suspected that they were lovers later on (before it all came out, that is)?
Even before that, at the dance, when Nan asked Kitty to dance, do you think he (or anyone for that matter) ever guessed that there was a romantic interest there? I guess people were not so easily shocked in 'artistic circles' but I am sure there must have been talk. 

[Brown Eyes]

I really enjoyed the way those crucial scenes were delivered in the movie.  I think this is one instance where I almost prefer the movie version of their first kiss to the way it was originally written in the book.  The movie also added the line Kitty says in the carriage: "I hate the way you make me feel..".  Simple words that reveal her helplessness and the fact that she is falling for Nan. 

Heya!

I agree that the intensity of the kiss scene in the carriage is really great... with everything shifting and becoming exposed all at once.  I've always sort of wondered exactly what Kitty meant with that statement "I hate the way you make me feel..."  I wonder how long she's had real feelings for Nan.  Was it from the very first meeting with the "like a mermaid" hand kiss?   Or was she just sort of flirting with Nan for a while?  We know that Kitty had had previous female lovers, so flirting with a girl from the audience may not have been so unusual for her.  Was she in love with Nan when she asked her to move to London?  She seemed somewhat surprised to realize that Nan had saved that dried up rose in her nightstand.  Nan is so naive and so quiet in the beginning I can really see how she was confusing to Kitty.  I do think Kitty was in love with Nan by the time she found her in their London room trying on the boys clothes... I guess now that I think of that... that was their first kiss (when Kitty says "I could fall for a boy like you")... but it was still masked in play-acting at that point.  I think for the kiss scene in the carriage with Kitty it's very significant that they're both wearing women's dresses.  Somehow that seems to indicate (to me at least) that they're both fully aware of the reality of the situation... that they're both now in love with another woman.  No hiding of playacting behind men's costumes at that point.

Do you think that Walter Bliss suspected that they were lovers later on (before it all came out, that is)?
Even before that, at the dance, when Nan asked Kitty to dance, do you think he (or anyone for that matter) ever guessed that there was a romantic interest there? I guess people were not so easily shocked in 'artistic circles' but I am sure there must have been talk. 

I think Walter probably knew from the beginning that Kitty flirted with girls and probably understood that Kitty had "flings" with women.  I think it's meant to be understood that she was pretty popular backstage at the theaters where she worked.  I've actually wondered just how many of the women who caught roses did Kitty have flings with?  Tony (Nan's sister's bisexual boyfriend) totally knew that Kitty dated women when he sort of warns her as she's chasing after Nan backstage in an early scene. 

(By the way... what do you make of that plot line with Tony being bisexual... and Alice dumping him when she found out?)

So, I'd assume that Walter had some idea.  But, I think when Nan finds him with Kitty and he made that awful statement about knowing that Nan and Kitty were "sweethearts" and that he believed that women "need a man" to actually have sex... I think he was being pretty honest about the level of understanding he had about what lesbians are and how women relate to one another.  Essentially, when it comes down to the reality of what lesbians are, Walter's clueless.  Maybe as years go on he does understand what the real story is with Kitty.  She says that their relationship became a "marriage of convenience" at the end... and maybe she's right.  It's hard to really know.


<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3859588-f5a.jpg" border="0" />

Thinking about Walter makes me think a little bit about the mini-series of Fingersmith and another difficult prominent male character.  What's you're take on "Gentleman" from Fingersmith?  How much did he understand about Maud from the beginning?  I think he figures out her specific attraction to Sue during the watercolor lessons... but, I often wonder if he knew about Maud almost from the first time he met her.  I think he's completely stunned about Sue.  And, I also wonder about what's meant to be implied between Gentleman and the "shoeshine" boy (the one that seems to have such a crush on Gentleman in a very naive way).  Are we meant to believe that Gentleman is gay too?  He never seems to indicate real sexual interest in the women for himself... even after the marriage he seems willing to leave Maud alone and proceed with the facade of the marriage very much like play-acting.  His entire motivation through the whole thing really seems to be the money (and ego)... at least as far as I can see.



Anyway!  Wow!  There really is a lot to discuss with these films.  For now, I'm really sticking with the films in my comments here because my memory of the films is better than my memory of the details from the books (I still need to re-read them).

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda! 

(By the way... what do you make of that plot line with Tony being bisexual... and Alice dumping him when she found out?)

The first time we see that Tony is into men as well is in the beginning, after he has invited Nan back to the theatre to see Kitty’s performance.  I believe it was the day when Kitty gave Nan the rose.  She walked into Tony’s office and startled him – he was in another man’s embrace and it looked like she had interrupted an intimate moment.  What amazed me about that scene was that Nan did not look confused or surprised or upset that she’d caught her sister’s boyfriend in that situation.  The more I think on it, the more I realize that she may not have even guessed that what she had seen was sexual in any way.  Up till her first night with Kitty, we know that she was not aware that “two girls could go all the way”… I wouldn’t be surprised that it never occurred to her that Tony was bisexual. 

It is not surprising to me that Alice dumped Tony when she found out his sexuality.  She was homophobic, like most people were at the time.  She more or less shunned Nan after she ‘came out’ to her that night in bed (when Nan visited from London).  She also said when she found out that Tony liked men as much as he liked girls, it made her “feel dirty”.  That says it all, really.

Thinking about Walter makes me think a little bit about the mini-series of Fingersmith and another difficult prominent male character.  What's you're take on "Gentleman" from Fingersmith?  How much did he understand about Maud from the beginning?  I think he figures out her specific attraction to Sue during the watercolor lessons... but, I often wonder if he knew about Maud almost from the first time he met her.  I think he's completely stunned about Sue.  And, I also wonder about what's meant to be implied between Gentleman and the "shoeshine" boy (the one that seems to have such a crush on Gentleman in a very naive way).  Are we meant to believe that Gentleman is gay too?  He never seems to indicate real sexual interest in the women for himself... even after the marriage he seems willing to leave Maud alone and proceed with the facade of the marriage very much like play-acting.  His entire motivation through the whole thing really seems to be the money (and ego)... at least as far as I can see.

I love that you brought up the subject of Gentleman!

The way I see it, Gentleman was a very talented deceiver, on so many levels.  First off, he had to keep up appearances at Briar, fooling all the staff and even Mr Lilly, the master of the house, leading them to believe that he was part of the gentry.  Then he had to deceive Sue (and Maud) into thinking that he was on their sides from the start.  And the ultimate level of deception – after his death, they found out that he was a drapist’s son named Frederick Bunt, not Richard Rivers as he had led everyone to believe from the very beginning.  Amazing just how deep the lies ran, isn’t it?


I don’t know that Gentleman guessed Maud’s sexuality from the beginning.  He knew for a fact (and even commented on it) that she was ‘unmoved’ by the content of the books (designed to “stir the emotions”) that she read at her uncle’s readings.  He saw that there was something very unusual about her, no doubt.  Maybe he picked up some clues along the way, but it all became crystal clear to him during that particular painting lesson; it became obvious that she was lusting after or falling in love with Sue.  He even threatened to tell Sue about the infatuation if Maud did not keep up her end of the bargain.  I can’t say he was surprised when he found out.


Another interesting thing – on their wedding night at the cottage, Gentleman stumbles upon Sue and Maud making love, his reaction is interesting – there is a look of surprise on his face, he watches them for a few seconds and then leaves them to it.  The first time I saw that, I wondered why he didn’t confront them.  Then I realized that he was not about to draw that kind of attention to himself.  What would he explain to Mrs. Cream (the cottage owner) if she came asking what the fuss was about?  It would wreck the whole plan (they needed to appear to be the “young fashionable couple on their wedding night”).  So he acted like he had not seen anything.  We only find out later that he uses that knowledge to convince the madhouse doctors that his wife (unknowing Sue) was deranged – remember when he told them in Maud’s interview that his wife had made unwelcome advances to her maid (Maud).  He used everything he could to his advantage, just like a crafty conman would.


Regarding Gentleman’s sexuality –
In the book, we are told (in Sue’s narration, I think) that in some circles, it is rumored that Gentleman is a “nancy” i.e. a gay man.  So I think we are to believe that Gentleman is gay.  He definitely indicated no sexual interest in any of the girls, never tried to take advantage of them in that sense.  That doesn’t necessarily mean that he was gay, but certainly adds to the point.  In the beginning, when he meets Maud at Briar and comes up to her room at night to present her with his scheme, she is startled at first and says something along the lines of: “I know nothing of what I read from my uncle’s books..” to which he says “I haven’t come for that, you can get that at any street corner..” No sexual interest right off the bat.  Then on their wedding night, Maud is huddled in bed when he grabs her arm and pulls her up, she flinches hard and then he says again: “I’ve told you I don’t want that.”  Still no sexual interest. 

And yeah, Charlie (the “shoeshine” boy, as you called him) was completely infatuated with Gentleman (who he thought was a saint, of course =).  He was even more keen on him in the book than in the movie.  I think Gentleman knew that Charles was sweet on him, but I don’t think he was about to get involved with a little bootboy when he had such big plans on the go, with so much money at stake.  Like you said, his entire motivation through the whole thing was $$$ - money!


I love that our discussion of TTV bled into Fingersmith.   


Back to Tipping... ~
How about we drift off to Nan and Diana for a sec. 
What did you make of Diana, of the 'arrangement' she had with Nan, or of her very open Sapphist lifestyle? 

[Lumière]

Here are two rather gorgeous pics of Nan and Kitty I found recently: 








And with Diana:

[Lumière]

Too bad Flo wasn't in these promo pics..

[Brown Eyes]

Here are two rather gorgeous pics of Nan and Kitty I found recently: 








And with Diana:

Hi M!

Sorry for my slow reply to this great thread.  I think this discussion is just great.

I agree these are really lovely shots!  Where did you find them?


And, thanks for the great long reply about Gentleman.  I'd forgotten that it's more explicit in the book that he's gay or rumored to be so.  It's interesting to note how subtle the clues are in the mini-series and still it's not too difficult to come to that same conclusion (even without the help of the book).  The idea of reading or trying to read subtle signs of sexuality are interesting even with regards to him!

So, it seems that both TTV and Fingersmith at least touch on the subject of male homosexuality too in addition to lesbianism.

It is sort of interesting to compare TTV to Fingersmith. It seems that TTV is more of a constant meditation on the question of lesbian identity and lesbian love stories as the central theme for the whole narrative.  Whereas, in Fingersmith, the lesbian plot is just blended into lots of other complicated plots and situations and is not always the central focus.  To me Fingersmith seems to be a great example of what Sarah Waters has said about wanting to write period-style literature and write the gay characters back into the plots and narratives since they're usually so carefully glossed over and masked in lots of historic literature (from the 19th century, etc.).  It's nice to see the gay characters just blending in to a wider narrative (though it's also great, of course, when the lesbian characters' stories get pride of place).

Back to Tipping... ~
How about we drift off to Nan and Diana for a sec. 
What did you make of Diana, of the 'arrangement' she had with Nan, or of her very open Sapphist lifestyle? 

First of all, I love the pic of Diana in your post above... in that amazing dress with the big black bustle.  Amazing.  And, it seems like such a great costume to represent her in for this promotional still.  Historical women's clothing can be so fascinating. 

And, I've mentioned before that I think her voice is just awesome.  Anna Chancellor does such a great job with this over-the-top character. 

Anyway, my response to the whole Diana scenario has been complex and has evolved over time.  I recall when I first read the book, I thought that whole central section was sort of sensationalist and "over-the-top" in kind of a negative way.  Essentially, I liked everything about the book initially, except for the Diana part.  But, after watching the mini-series a zillion times and having read the book twice... I feel very differently about it.  As far as the mini-series goes and the visual depiction of that section, I think it's nice that they didn't shy away from some of the more "in your face" aspects of the sexuality that's so strong in the Diana storyline.  In a way, it's sort of sad to me that Diana's world is portrayed in such a negative way... I think there could have been another more positive way of depicting a wealthy, somewhat "liberated" lesbian who wasn't afraid of her sexuality or expressing it. 

But, I think the cruelty of how her character is portrayed as well as the mean-spiritedness of her society adds a nice layer of complexity into an understanding of lesbian culture.  It's maybe instructive to illustrate to the audience that lesbians don't always act in a benevolent way towards other lesbians.  I also think the Diana segment is important at highlighting how important class was to this whole situation... probably especially in Victorian England.  In addition, I think it was good that there was an illustration of how the butch-femme culture functioned in historical periods and how dressing the way they did actually facilitated public movements and facilitated going "out."  It's interesting to show that there was a pragmatic aspect to that kind of role-playing (as well as a sexual aspect).

So, now I actually quite like that segment (even though it's not a positive segment, so to speak).  I love the way Diana's portrayed and I think it's important in illustrating a certain kind of lesbian sexuality (seen in Diana's attitude) that's really all about lust... and not about true love or living happily ever after.  It just makes lesbian culture seem very complex.  To me it is hard to understand how Flo could accept Nan's story about her circumstance with Diana so quickly and relatively easily (at least in how Flo's reaction is portrayed in the mini-series).  Those were some pretty hardcore circumstances under which Nan was living. 


<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3859590-0bc.jpg" border="0" />

Going back to Flo for a sec... how do you feel about the ending of the TTV mini series?  How do you think Nan's family will respond to Flo?  I'm sure it would be rough going with Alice.  And, I wonder if the revelation about Nan's sexuality will come as a complete shock to the rest of her family.  Her parents and brother seem very sweet but seem to be portrayed as rather naive.

[Lumière]

Howdy Amanda! 

Wish I could find a larger version of this pic..

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3859590-0bc.jpg" border="0" />

Do you have it?

This is a great shot of Nan before they head over to meet the parents... (more on that in my next post)..

[Lumière]

Glad you liked the Nan/Kitty/Diana pictures Amanda!
I found them on a Keeley Hawes fansite.
Again, wish Flo was in the mix as well.

So, now I actually quite like that segment (even though it's not a positive segment, so to speak).  I love the way Diana's portrayed and I think it's important in illustrating a certain kind of lesbian sexuality (seen in Diana's attitude) that's really all about lust... and not about true love or living happily ever after.  It just makes lesbian culture seem very complex.

I was not very crazy about the Diana part of TTV the first few times I watched the movie either.  I went back and watched it a few more times after I got the book and read the story.  Diana seemed so much fuller as a character to me at that point.  Anna Chancellor was a splendid choice for the role – she brought such a flare to the character.

As you say, Diana shows a completely different facet of the sapphist lifestyle of that era.  Diana fascinates me – she is a woman of bountiful means, a Victorian too… her lesbian nature does not eradicate her classist arrogance.  Her wealth and position play a vital role in the story.  We know that she had many lovers she took in and discarded in the end; Nan was a good example.  Diana is no different from other Victorians in her class (sapphist or not).  I was not concerned that she shed a negative light on lesbian culture because at the end of the day, people are just people, whether they are gay or not.  She definitely used her ample station/power to get what she wanted from the people around her, whether they were her lovers or her servants (not that there was any difference between those groups, in her case). 

I remember the scene at the last Sapphist party Nan would attend… where Diana asked Zena Blake to pull down her drawers for the entertainment of Diana and all her guests.  It was a horribly degrading thing to do, but as mistress of the house (as she told Nan), it was in her power to ask that of ‘her girl’.  It was interesting to see that none of the guests objected to Diana’s request – in fact, they were more than delighted to subject this helpless maid to such humiliation.  Their attitude of looking down on someone simply because s/he is a servant says more to me about their class-structured society than it does their sexuality.

What I appreciate about Diana’s character is her audacity, her openness about her sexuality, her ability to simply live the life she wanted.  Her story with Nan was not a love story, far from it, it was based on lust and skewed power dynamics.  It was a story line that showed that there isn’t always a happy-ever-after in life’s relationships, whether they be queer or not.

Going back to Flo for a sec... how do you feel about the ending of the TTV mini series?  How do you think Nan's family will respond to Flo?  I'm sure it would be rough going with Alice.  And, I wonder if the revelation about Nan's sexuality will come as a complete shock to the rest of her family.  Her parents and brother seem very sweet but seem to be portrayed as rather naive.

I loved the ending of the mini-series (more than the book’s ending in fact).  It felt like Nan went full circle – she left her oyster girl’s existence in Whitstable in a journey of self-discovery and she came back with an understanding of her true nature and with a person she loved dearly.  It was a happy ending I deeply appreciated.  

Flo looked nervous too, didn’t she?  Who can blame her?  I think that Alice would be the least surprised to see Nan with a female partner, simply because she had known for some time, she didn’t approve, but she knew.  Here’s how I picture it…

Nan holds onto Flo’s sweaty hand tightly, reassuring her all the way home.  They get there, get in… hugs all around.  Her parents are thrilled to see her home again; there is a tear in her father’s eyes.  Nan first introduces Flo as her friend… Alice is a little lukewarm and the least enthused by the reunion, but she smiles nonetheless.  They sit down for a while and chat about the trip from London while Nan’s mother fusses as she organizes something for them to eat. 

When there are enough snacks on the table to feed an army, her mother takes a seat and Nan tells them the real reason she came home to visit.  She comes out and tells them that she and Florence are sweethearts, have been for some time now.

Alice walks out in a huff, shaking her head, afraid of how their parents would take it. Her brother, Davy’s and her father’s mouths hang open; her mother sighs a deep shaky sigh and says that she always knew that there was something a bit queer about her daughter (in fact, she started having her suspicions when Nan got all googly-eyed and defensive when the subject of Kitty came up those years ago). 

There are tears in her mother’s eyes…Nan goes to her and tries to hug her…she hesitates and lets Nan embrace her; her husband mumbles something like.. ‘I don’t think I heard her right, did I?’  Flo sits quietly, her head slightly lowered.  Davy says, ‘But you were with Freddie all that time, Nan, surely you can’t be…’…what an emotional day it is in the Astley household! …

One day before they have to leave for London again, Alice comes around … She tells Nan that she still doesn’t approve of her ways, but thinks that Flo is lovely and caring (she also adds that she never liked Kitty and is pleased that her sister found someone grounded who does not dress in gentlemen’s clothes or wear her hair short)…

In the end, a hundred tears and questions later, Nan’s family tells her that they love her, and wish her & Flo all the love and happiness (and luck) in the world (for they would need all the good wishes they could get)…

Okay, I got carried away with my silly story there..

Your turn, what do you think happened after the end we saw?

[Brown Eyes]

Howdy Amanda! 

Wish I could find a larger version of this pic..


Do you have it?

Sorry Bud, I only have that little version of it.  I'm still curious about where you're finding all your great TTV pictures.  Mostly, mine are just the sort of random results that are found via Google and Yahoo image searches.  Nothing fancy.

[Brown Eyes]

Diana fascinates me – she is a woman of bountiful means, a Victorian too… her lesbian nature does not eradicate her classist arrogance.  Her wealth and position play a vital role in the story.  We know that she had many lovers she took in and discarded in the end; Nan was a good example.  Diana is no different from other Victorians in her class (sapphist or not).  I was not concerned that she shed a negative light on lesbian culture because at the end of the day, people are just people, whether they are gay or not.  She definitely used her ample station/power to get what she wanted from the people around her, whether they were her lovers or her servants (not that there was any difference between those groups, in her case). 

I think Diana is totally fascinating too (and I'll say again that Chancellor's portrayal really went a long way to helping facilitate this sense of Diana I think).  Even though she's totally cruel and completely classist (and seems to even know this... and still she persists in using all of these things to her own advantage)... she's still erotically interesting, which is a big complicated key to her character I think.  Even though Nan is miserable living with Diana and even after a long, long time had past she admits that she's still "on fire" for Diana and that Diana was still "on fire" for her.  And, between the two actresses you really do get this sense of chemistry. 

What I appreciate about Diana’s character is her audacity, her openness about her sexuality, her ability to simply live the life she wanted.  Her story with Nan was not a love story, far from it, it was based on lust and skewed power dynamics.  It was a story line that showed that there isn’t always a happy-ever-after in life’s relationships, whether they be queer or not.

I agree with you that Diana's audacity and self-confidence are extremely attractive in a certain way.  That's all part of her sexual chemistry I think.  To me personally, boldness and confidence are huge turn-ons.  It would be interesting to imagine her as a positive character (without the abusive side or the classist side)... a lesbian like her with a lot of money... intelligent and autonomous could have been a powerful force for the lesbian subculture one could imagine.

And, yes, it's just so interesting... this segment really is all about lust and not love.  It's like a grittier... less-pretty side to lesbianism that must be a reality for some people.  I mean the segments about Kitty and about Flo are all about love (plus sexual attraction too).  Those segments are more about the "hearts and flowers" that Diana's friend mocks at one point.  It's just such a contrast.  Even when Diana says to Nan that she's "the love of her life"... it's like immediately neither of them really believes it.  I don't really think Diana loved Nan... I think she was proud of her "good catch" and liked the idea of controlling Nan, but I hardly believe that she really meant what she said about the "love of her life."  It's so interesting, too, that Nan throws this statement back in Diana's face after she was hit at the party.  She uses this phrase back at Diana in front of the crowd and Diana says "listen to the little liar."  She's embarrassed about the idea of love even. 

Even after all this time, the Diana section is definitely difficult.  And, another thing I find compelling about this is that at one point after Zena tells her about her earlier affair with another maid, Nan says that following Diana she feels "too spoiled and stained" for love.  I do find it fascinating that Flo is able to accept this situation about Nan's past so relatively easily.



OK, more about Flo and the happy ending...

Your turn, what do you think happened after the end we saw?

I think your description of the possible meeting with the parents is excellent, and very similar to how I envision it.  I would think that things might be harder with Alice though... I would almost say that Alice would be the one unhappy aspect to the ending of the story.  I think Alice is just too homophobic to handle this or to come around.  I do think that Nan's parents seem to just love her to pieces and would certainly eventually accept the situation.  I really don't know if her family would have put two and two together about Nan being "different" prior to Flo coming home with Nan.  But,  I think her Dad's question about "has she found herself a young man yet" (when Nan comes home from London to visit for the first time)... indicates that he's growing concerned about her.  And, perhaps the way that she was fawning over Kitty with the oyster-eating lessons, etc. would be enough for the folks to understand what was happening with Nan.  It's really hard to say.

[Lumière]

Amanda,

Re:  the websites with some screencaps:

Check out this Rachael Stirling website gallery
and
Keeley Hawes site (sign up required to see the gallery). 


To continue with our TTV discussion...

We know just how much Kitty broke Nan's heart when they split up.  It is hard to lose one's first love.
Were you sympathetic towards Kitty even though she was clearly hurting Nan?  Could you see where she was coming from, why she decided to "do the sensible thing" and wed Mr. Bliss?  Do you think that she was sincere when she came back to plead with Nan...would anything have changed?  We know that she wasn't planning on leaving Walter, she wanted to see Nan "on the side", so to speak (a few conclusions could be drawn from that).. Would you have been tempted to give her a second chance...? 


I think she really did believe that Nan would give her that rose...




...

[Brown Eyes]

Heya,

Thanks for the links to those websites Bud! 

I feel very sorry for Kitty.  I mean, she was brutal to Nan with her deception and her ultimate decision to sleep with and marry Walter.  And, I don't really forgive her for that.  But, I do feel sorry for Kitty in the sense that I think she's sort of a female version of Ennis.  I think she truly is a lesbian (even her reactions to Walter and Nan during the big confrontation when Nan discovers them make it seem like she's not very enthusiastic about Walter).  I think, much like Ennis... she chooses Walter out of concerns about stability/security and concerns about what other people might think about her.  I mean, even after the first time she and Nan are together she says it has to be their secret.  And, when Kitty comes back in the end suggesting that the affair with Nan should be resumed... this to me is very much like Ennis wanting the fishing trips to continue on a regular basis but not being willing to move in with Jack or make any kind of public or even private commitment. 

I think Kitty is pretty miserable once the relationship with Walter becomes sexual/ marriage.  I think the sketch that Nan witnesses with Walter and Kitty on stage is meant to be seen as demeaning and embarassing for Kitty compared to her sexy and bold earlier acts before she was with Walter.  I also think it's supposed to suggest that Walter has a tremendously condescending attitude towards Kitty... even seeing her as child-like. 

But, I think Kitty's plight is probably the plight of a lot of historical lesbians and even modern-day lesbians.  Women who sublimate their true desires and feelings because of concerns about convention/security and concerns about public reputation.
 

How do you feel about Kitty?


OK and now I have another question about Fingersmith (completely unrelated to the Kitty topic).  How do you feel about the ending, when Maud becomes a writer of erotica herself?  What do you make of that decision on her part?  And Susan's pretty quick acceptance of the situation?

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3980013-2e2.jpg" border="0" />

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda!

How do you feel about Kitty?

I agree with the points you made.  Great comparison between Kitty and Ennis – quite agree with you on that score.  Not unlike Ennis, we know that Kitty had a hard life growing up.  She did not wish to discuss the details with Nan but no doubt, those experiences shaped her attitudes, possibly even surrounding her sexuality. In the end, I did feel a bit sorry for Kitty.  I sensed that she still loved Nan, I am sure she never stopped thinking about her.  The social pressures got to her and she betrayed Nan, thinking that she was doing them a favor because ‘they couldn’t carry on as they were..” (as if what they had was a passing phase). 

Isn’t it interesting to see how one act by another person can send a person hurtling down a path they never imagined they would travel?  After Kitty, Nan, emotionally tormented by what had happened, fell into a depression and eventually started working the streets … on the flip side of that, she started to explore the possibility of dressing up in the clothes she had used solely for the stage (a medium she later uses to explore her sapphic identity).  At that time of her life though, I think those men’s clothes sort of gave her permission to be invisible to the world while being a performer on the streets (her new stage); she could be a sailor one day, a soldier the next… and those ‘characters’ would be the ones doing those sexual acts to complete strangers on dark street corners.  You hear about prostitutes needing to take heroin in order to turn tricks…for Nan, I think those costumes were her heroin, the one thing that made the whole affair bearable.  But I digress…

When I think about the ending and what might’ve become of the characters’ lives afterward, I see Kitty staying with Walter.  I imagine her having women lovers on the side but never actually taking the step to leave him.  When she came back to plead with Nan, I think Nan was tempted, even though the wound that had healed was forced open again.  Kitty was the first woman she had fallen for, and hard too.  The one person who showed her that ‘girls could go all the way’, the first one to set her off on her journey of self-discovery.  It would’ve been hard for Nan not to be tempted to go back to her…

OK and now I have another question about Fingersmith (completely unrelated to the Kitty topic).  How do you feel about the ending, when Maud becomes a writer of erotica herself?  What do you make of that decision on her part?  And Susan's pretty quick acceptance of the situation?

I was not surprised that Maud became a writer of erotica in the end. 

She had just found out that she was “a nobody” as Gentleman put it; she had lived a lie most of her life, the money, the house she’d been kept prisoner in – they were not hers in the end.  I don’t think she felt she had much more to offer anyone. 

A statement Nan made comes to mind here – it is her feeling of being “too stained for love” (what with her relationship with Diana and her sexual exploits before that)… In a way, I see that statement applying to Maud as well; I see her thinking of herself along those same lines.  She sees herself as a young woman who has been “inoculated with poison” from a very tender age and damaged irreparably by her uncle’s actions.  Then Sue comes along; she falls in love with Sue and then betrays her, only to discover that she was being played as much as Sue was.  Everything she knew to be true was gone, except the art (albeit objectionable and unusual) she had acquired from her uncle – the erotica.   I recall the way she calmly asked Sue, "Have you come to kill me.." when Sue returned to Briar, as if she had been waiting and expecting such an outcome.  At the end, I don't think she cared much about what became of her - everything was lost, including Sue (or so she thought).

With regards to Sue's acceptance of the issue...
By the time Sue finds Maud at Briar after everything has happened, I think she is ‘shocked-out’ i.e. there isn’t too much that can surprise her anymore, what with everything that transpired at the madhouse, with Gentleman, Maud and Mrs Sucksby.  I think it was more important to her at that point to determine whether Maud knew who her (Sue’s) real mother/identity was from the very beginning… because Maud’s knowledge of such a fact would’ve taken things to a level of deceit so deep that it could’ve destroyed everything & sent her feelings for Maud crashing down completely.  I don’t think that Sue was prepared to lose Maud again after the culmination of all the events that had transpired over the previous months. 

I was just glad that they made their peace in the end and found that the love they felt for each other was still there.  Besides, with Sue being the true heiress of Briar and all the money, there would be no need for Maud to keep writing erotica for a living (she could just write it for Sue )…


What did you think about the ending? 

[Lumière]

Thought I'd post this rather beautiful picture of Kitty..
love the Victorian outfits! 





I just noted something...
Is it just me or is there something a little masculine about Kitty's sitting posture in this pic?
I am referring to the general legs apart, elbows resting on the knees pose... Makes me wonder if she sometimes found that her adopted masculinity for the stage bled into her day-to-day feminine side ..

[Brown Eyes]

I was not surprised that Maud became a writer of erotica in the end. 

She had just found out that she was “a nobody” as Gentleman put it; she had lived a lie most of her life, the money, the house she’d been kept prisoner in – they were not hers in the end.  I don’t think she felt she had much more to offer anyone. 

A statement Nan made comes to mind here – it is her feeling of being “too stained for love” (what with her relationship with Diana and her sexual exploits before that)… In a way, I see that statement applying to Maud as well; I see her thinking of herself along those same lines.  She sees herself as a young woman who has been “inoculated with poison” from a very tender age and damaged irreparably by her uncle’s actions.  Then Sue comes along; she falls in love with Sue and then betrays her, only to discover that she was being played as much as Sue was.  Everything she knew to be true was gone, except the art (albeit objectionable and unusual) she had acquired from her uncle – the erotica.   I recall the way she calmly asked Sue, "Have you come to kill me.." when Sue returned to Briar, as if she had been waiting and expecting such an outcome.  At the end, I don't think she cared much about what became of her - everything was lost, including Sue (or so she thought).

With regards to Sue's acceptance of the issue...
By the time Sue finds Maud at Briar after everything has happened, I think she is ‘shocked-out’ i.e. there isn’t too much that can surprise her anymore, what with everything that transpired at the madhouse, with Gentleman, Maud and Mrs Sucksby.  I think it was more important to her at that point to determine whether Maud knew who her (Sue’s) real mother/identity was from the very beginning… because Maud’s knowledge of such a fact would’ve taken things to a level of deceit so deep that it could’ve destroyed everything & sent her feelings for Maud crashing down completely.  I don’t think that Sue was prepared to lose Maud again after the culmination of all the events that had transpired over the previous months. 

I was just glad that they made their peace in the end and found that the love they felt for each other was still there.  Besides, with Sue being the true heiress of Briar and all the money, there would be no need for Maud to keep writing erotica for a living (she could just write it for Sue )…


What did you think about the ending? 

I like what you said about Sue being "shocked-out."  That sounds very reasonable to me.  I suppose after the madhouse an all the deceit and convoluted tangle of plots and schemes, she was maybe numb to a lot of future shocks.

As far as the ending goes... I feel like the story ends just as a really interesting stage of their relationship begins.  It would be so fascinating to see how they navigate their relationship following all the drama of the main story.  You're point about "being too stained for love" definitely seems to apply to the situation between Sue and Maud on a number of levels.  However, when you think back to their main love scene before Maud marries Gentleman, I think that may be one of the sweetest (I mean literally sweet) lesbian love scenes I've seen.  So, I think there's a way in which their love story is like this lovely, delicate and very sincere thing in the midst of all the ugly drama that surrounds their circumstance.

I think the idea of Maud taking possession of the "skills" she's learned from her horrible Uncle in terms of dealing with erotica and books in general is very interesting.  By her actively claiming it, there's some sense of empowerment for her I think.  And, now with her love for Sue, as she says she now understands a bit what the books were about.  Although, of course, the critical difference here is that she'd presumably be writing women's erotica, or stories about women for women, which I would assume would be very different from the types of pornography that her Uncle collected.

It's sort of interesting to imagine Sue and Maud's future together in relation to Diana in TTV.  Presumably, Sue and Maud will move forward as a couple - living in rather grand style with Sue's money and the house.  In a way, they'll be the wealthy and empowered lesbians (in much the same way as Diana, although Diana of course didn't have a true significant other).  Also, it could be said that if Maud continued to write erotica there would be a serious element of decadence in their lives (just as Diana's life was built around an idea of decadence).  But, at the same time. Sue and Maud just seem so different in terms of temperment compared to Diana that the analogy here isn't too exact.  I don't think either Sue or Maud have the same level of cruelty in their personalities as Diana.  Maud, in particular, seems rather cynical, but I suppose that's almost to be expected after how she's been raised.

Still, as much as the relationship between Sue and Maud is folded into the wider story of Fingersmith... at the end I'm really ready to focus on how they'll make their relationship work.  So, in a way it's frustrating that it ends there so abruptly.

Thought I'd post this rather beautiful picture of Kitty..
love the Victorian outfits! 





I just noted something...
Is it just me or is there something a little masculine about Kitty's sitting posture in this pic?
I am referring to the general legs apart, elbows resting on the knees pose... Makes me wonder if she sometimes found that her adopted masculinity for the stage bled into her day-to-day feminine side ..

This is a great pic!  And, Kitty is just so gorgeous that I'm not surprised that she's featured a lot in many of the posters/DVD/promotional material for TTV.

And, yes, I think you're completely right about her posture here.  She's wearing proper women's clothing, but her posture as you note is unconventional and masculine... and by exposing her ankles she's showing that she's not at all a "proper" conventional Victorian lady.  It was considered really immodest to reveal your ankles back then.  Which, of course is sort of funny when you think about Kitty's character... her boldness and her happiness and comfort in her stage act.  Her "masculine" sitting posture here reminds me of the first meeting that Nan and Kitty have in Kitty's dressing room where Kitty sits backwards on the chair with her legs apart.  So super sexy, but also so totally unconventional for Victorian times.  I'm sure Nan was being very honest early on when she says she'd never seen anything like Kitty.  Kitty's boldness in all of this makes her decision to fall back on Walter all the more perplexing in a lot of ways.

So, I have two Kitty related questions at this point.

How early do you think the relationship with Walter started?  When Nan first meets Kitty, Walter's already in Kitty's dressing room.  Kitty proudly says that she won't "do things to please the manager" in the way that many stage actresses would.  But, in the end, by turning to Walter... is that what she ultimately is doing?  And, really, how early did this affair begin?  It seems clear that they make significant eye contact in the carriage when Nan and Kitty first arrive in London, for example.  But, is this really Walter just flirting with Kitty.  Or is it really mutual at that point between Kitty and Walter?

And, my other question is... what do you imagine Kitty's upbringing to be like.  We know she doesn't want to talk about it with Nan.  Because she only wants to talk about "happy things."  And, when Nan asks Kitty how she came up with the idea to dress as a boy on stage in the first place... Kitty gives a sort of general answer about it being fun to be bold, etc.  But, really, how do we think Kitty got involved in that kind of act to begin with?

[Lumière]

Hey A! 

Still, as much as the relationship between Sue and Maud is folded into the wider story of Fingersmith... at the end I'm really ready to focus on how they'll make their relationship work.  So, in a way it's frustrating that it ends there so abruptly.

Not unlike Brokeback where we were left wondering what happens to Ennis in the end, and were expected to use our imaginations to continue the story, Fingersmith ended sooner than would've been ideal.  I would've loved to see them actually make a go of it as well!  I wish SW had given us a little bit more to go on at the end (although I am grateful for the happy ending - SW's 2nd book Affinity left me feeling duped and depressed even though I loved it).

I actually found a website with FingerSmith fanfic, no doubt we are not the only ones who would like to continue the tale. 


I will respond to your Kitty questions later tonight... (I may need to go back and consult the book as well) 

[Lumière]

Some Nan & Kitty fanart for ya....

[Lumière]

Hey there Amanda!

Sorry for the late reply --

How early do you think the relationship with Walter started?  When Nan first meets Kitty, Walter's already in Kitty's dressing room.  Kitty proudly says that she won't "do things to please the manager" in the way that many stage actresses would.  But, in the end, by turning to Walter... is that what she ultimately is doing?  And, really, how early did this affair begin? 

In the movie, we see that Kitty & Walter exchange flirty looks in the carriage while Nan was busy marvelling at the sights and sounds of London.  It is hard to say when exactly their “affair” began, especially because we don’t really get to see scenes with Walter and Kitty alone after Nan joins her in London.

In the book, however, I had to go back and hunt this down – we get a better idea of when it started. 

When Nan discovers them together after her return from Whitstable, Kitty tells her that she only slept with Walter the night before but that before that, “there was only talk and kisses..”  When Nan eventually asks her when the kisses began, she said they started after one particularly stressful performance they’d done at Deacon’s Music Hall (quite possibly months before they broke up) – the audience had been rowdy and aggressive and Walter (upset at the theatre manager for the poor treatment of his artistes) took Kitty home before their last song was done… Nan had to stay back and pack up their bags/costumes etc.  That was the night when the kisses began & after which Nan observed that Walter’s visits were fewer than before & that he'd grown increasingly awkward whenever he was around Kitty.  Nan unknowingly thought that he was acting that way because he had found out about their relationship and didn’t approve.  Little did she know…

And, my other question is... what do you imagine Kitty's upbringing to be like.  We know she doesn't want to talk about it with Nan.  Because she only wants to talk about "happy things."  And, when Nan asks Kitty how she came up with the idea to dress as a boy on stage in the first place... Kitty gives a sort of general answer about it being fun to be bold, etc.  But, really, how do we think Kitty got involved in that kind of act to begin with?

I am not sure whether this subject was covered in the book or not.  Do you remember if it was?  I searched briefly to no avail.  Do you think that her family might’ve dissociated themselves from her because they found out she was a tom?  Maybe she was one of those little girls who love to try on their fathers’/brothers’ clothes when no one is watching… Maybe she left home when the rumours of her sexuality came out … maybe she was a carefree child/young woman before that… maybe her family’s reaction pushed her deep into the closet – we know that she was never keen on making her sexuality public.. maybe she eventually cut all ties with her family after she discovered she could support herself by cropping her hair & performing on stage in handsome men's clothes... maybe she was inspired by another performer/act she'd seen in her youth (much like Nan was enthralled by her), hence the idea of performing on stage in the first place... the possibilities are endless.. 

What do you think her early life might’ve been like? 


When I was going through the book again, looking for some of the details mentioned above, I came across a conversation between Nan and Kitty that I found very interesting.  Nan and Kitty were in the change-room of a theatre when they met two women – a singer and her dresser, a couple that Nan thought was rather like she and Kitty”.  After the singer’s show, she came back to the dressing room and invited Nan & Kitty to a party afterwards.  Kitty declined and said that they had a prior engagement with their manager.  She had lied.  When Nan asked her why she had lied, she said that she ‘didn’t care for them’; to which Nan said:
“ Why not?  They were nice.  They were funny.  They were – like us.”
Kitty stiffened at Nan’s words and grew quite agitated, saying –
“They’re not like us!  They’re not like us at all.  They’re toms.” 
Their conversation after that was mainly – Nan trying to understand why Kitty thinks they are different from those women; Kitty growing grave and uncomfortable by the whole topic…

The day after they met the two women, when they returned to the theatre, Nan observed that Kitty tried to physically distance herself from the women in the change-room..
"Kitty chose a hook that was far from theirs.."
(Did she think that their “tomness” was contagious or something? )

Kitty’s reaction here reminds me of Ennis again.  Her denial is deep, her fear is even deeper. 
It all boils down to her own homophobia, self-hatred. 
It says a lot that she couldn’t admit to her own lover that she was having a lesbian relationship or that she was a tom, even though she had admitted to having prior relationships with other women.


Would love to hear your thoughts on this.. 

[Lumière]

Another great pic..

[Lumière]

Calling Amanda to the stage..
Hellooooo...? 
*taps fingers on desk...waiting...* 


Here's another take on the N & K pic I posted earlier..

A visual interpretation of Nan's thoughts Pre- her breakup with Kitty.. 
(the field of flowers, the ethereal floating image of the two in the skies...
what Nan doesn't see is that it is all fading ... slowly fading away..)

[Brown Eyes]

Heya M!

Sorry again for my tardy reply to this thread!  The posts here often get so long and complex I usually feel like I need a good long time to sit and work on them.    Which, is all good of course.

When I was going through the book again, looking for some of the details mentioned above, I came across a conversation between Nan and Kitty that I found very interesting.  Nan and Kitty were in the change-room of a theatre when they met two women – a singer and her dresser, a couple that Nan thought was rather like she and Kitty”.  After the singer’s show, she came back to the dressing room and invited Nan & Kitty to a party afterwards.  Kitty declined and said that they had a prior engagement with their manager.  She had lied.  When Nan asked her why she had lied, she said that she ‘didn’t care for them’; to which Nan said:
“ Why not?  They were nice.  They were funny.  They were – like us.”
Kitty stiffened at Nan’s words and grew quite agitated, saying –
“They’re not like us!  They’re not like us at all.  They’re toms.” 
Their conversation after that was mainly – Nan trying to understand why Kitty thinks they are different from those women; Kitty growing grave and uncomfortable by the whole topic…

The day after they met the two women, when they returned to the theatre, Nan observed that Kitty tried to physically distance herself from the women in the change-room..
"Kitty chose a hook that was far from theirs.."
(Did she think that their “tomness” was contagious or something? )

Kitty’s reaction here reminds me of Ennis again.  Her denial is deep, her fear is even deeper. 
It all boils down to her own homophobia, self-hatred. 
It says a lot that she couldn’t admit to her own lover that she was having a lesbian relationship or that she was a tom, even though she had admitted to having prior relationships with other women.

Hunh.  This is very, very interesting.  I'll admit that I have not yet re-read the book.  This is a case that's reminding me that I really, really need to do so!  And soon!  It's interesting to remember and realize what's been omitted from the mini-series.  I've watched the mini-series so many times now that it's most definitely my main frame of reference for the TTV subject.  It's nice, at least that the mini-series is complex enough that it alone can be fodder for lots of analysis.

Anyway, this scene you describe about Kitty's reaction to the other couple of women just seems to further emphasize the idea that Kitty is like a female Ennis.  This scenario reminds me so much of the "I'm not queer" type of conversation we see between Ennis and Jack.  It's so perplexing that Kitty is so liberated and free-wheeling in certain respects and so worried about convention and being perceived as gay at the same time.  You'd think she would not like the idea of performing as a "boy" on stage if she was this concerned about people wondering about whether she's a "tom" or not.  Clearly, Alice thinks about Kitty as an unusual type of character long before she knows Nan and Kitty are sweethearts.  When Nan starts to explain to Alice about how excited she feels about Kitty (and about how she doesn't feel much of anything for Freddy) when Kitty is still performing in the provinces.. Alice says that people like Kitty "aren't like them" and "don't lead natural lives."  I think that Kitty may be very naive or consciously deceiving herself if she really thinks that people don't wonder about whether she's gay... given the type of act she performs.  Being friendly with two women who are more obviously a gay couple doesn't seem like it would tip the scales much in terms of what public perception of Kitty is anyway.  And, it's also interesting throughout the mini-series and the book to recognize how much more open Nan is about her sexuality than Kitty... and how much less worried she seems to be.  The toxic-ness of internalized homophobia seems to be a real sub-theme to Kitty's character... just as it's a foregrounded theme for Ennis.

Thinking about Kitty's internalized homophobia in this light, really makes me more and more convinced that marrying Walter is a similar gesture to Ennis marrying Alma.  I think it's a "saving face" type of gesture and I think Kitty truly is made desperate by this decision at the end.



About Kitty's childhood and upbringing... well, any theory about that really is speculation on my part.  This is especially so since there so little revealed about this in the mini-series (I don't recall any further details from the book... again! I definitely need to re-read).

All I can say, is that when Kitty refuses to talk about her childhood with Nan when she visits Nan at her parents' house, Kitty exudes a wistfulness about Nan's family life.  She remarks about how nice and cozy Nan's humble house seems to her and she says that Nan's family seems like a "proper family" and then says that she herself never had a "proper family."  This comment always seemed a little ominous to me.  It always sounded like Kitty came from a "broken home"... maybe with separated parents and I always hope that this subtle implication doesn't suggest any kind of really dire abuse in Kitty's past.
Maybe her estrangement from her family does have something to do with her stage act and possibly her family's knowledge of her sexuality.  That's a good suggestion.  To me it seems like Kitty's interest in her stage persona has a lot to do with rebelliousness and a sense of freedom and 'boldness' she gets from strutting around on stage and singing about girls.  I wonder if her stage act might have evolved out of some real teenage rebellion she might have gone through in her younger years.

I feel tremendously sorry for Kitty.  I feel like she had so much opportunity to make a positive lesbian life for herself.  And, she had such a confident attitude in the way she carried herself that to see her crumple under the pressures of society/convention and Walter is just so sad.


OK... so on to happier things!  What do you imagine Nan and Flo's future to be like?
 

p.s.  This is gorgeous Bud! 

[Lumière]

My response to your post coming soon, Amanda...
but first...
Here is a pic I found recently that I hadn't seen before...

[Lumière]

Bumping this thread with a Happy Nan! 






Hey Amanda -

Like I told ya, can't wait to resume our discussions in here...



~M

[Lumière]

Greetings Amanda!


Have I ever got some news for you...

Sarah Waters' Affinity has been adapted into a movie! 

[Lumière]

I am so excited about this! 

Check out this link for more info...
http://www.frameline.org/festival/film/detail.aspx?id=1487&FID=42


Excerpt from that link:

 Affinity

USA, 2008, 94 Minute Running Time
Genre/Subjects: Drama, Lesbian, Mystery / Thriller
Program: Opening Night
Language: English

DIRECTOR: Tim Fywell

This delicious period piece, based on Sarah Waters’ 1999 novel of the same name, is a women-in-prison movie with a gothic Victorian twist. Upper-class Margaret (Anna Madely), mourning her father’s recent death and looking for diversion, goes to Millbank Prison as a “Lady Visitor” — presumably to improve the female convicts but really as a way to step outside her limited, conventional world. When she finds herself irresistibly drawn to Selina (Zoe Tapper), an attractive young convict, Margaret’s do-gooding quickly falls by the wayside.
Nothing is what it seems as Margaret becomes smitten with Selina, who once enjoyed celebrity as a successful medium before being convicted of fraud and the mysterious assault of a young girl. Fans of Sarah Waters (Tipping the Velvet, Fingersmith) will be happy to know that screenwriter Andrew Davies, fresh from adapting Jane Austen for the BBC, hews closely to her dark and eerie second novel. In preserving the atmospheric mood of the disturbing thriller, Davies faithfully transfers to the big screen Waters’ fascination with the seamy underbelly of Victorian propriety, where ladies’ frustrations find outlet in private sessions with a medium, and benevolence is a fragile facade for voyeuristic fascination.
Stylishly shot, Affinity features stellar performances from Anna Massey, Amanda Plummer and particularly Madely, who does a superb job of conveying the unspoken longings of the intelligent and frustrated young Margaret, who is as much imprisoned by her gender and class as the mysterious Selina is by bars and chains. — MONICA NOLAN


The movie will premiere at the San Francisco International LGBT Film festival ...
Thursday, June 19, 7:00 PM
Castro Theatre

I wish I could be there for that.

I also checked Amazon and the DVD release is set for: August 19th. 
So a few months wait, but still, we can pre-order it and try to wait patiently. 

[Brown Eyes]

Hi M!!

Great to see this thread revived!

And, that's some really, really awesome news!!  Yeehaw.

I can't wait to see Affinity!

[Lumière]

The thread is certainly going to stay revived, I hope! 

I can't wait to see the movie either!
I was pleased to read in the review that the movie stayed close to Sarah W's book.   
Dang, August 19th for a Dvd release date is kinda far, isn't it?
I'll pre-order it this weekend anyway! 

[Lumière]

Here are some pix I've been able to dig up so far: 





I love this look on her face...conveys so much..

[Brown Eyes]

 

Wow!  Those images from Affinity look awesome!  Thanks so much for bringing this information here M!

 

[Lumière]

Oh, you're welcome Amanda!   

I'll post more when/if I unearth some more pix.
I can't tell you how thrilled I was to find out this little piece of news today.  Made my morning, I can tell you. 

I had read sometime last year that Affinity was going to be adapted into a movie but didn't know any more than that.
So today, I googled around and was very pleased to see that it has already been shot and will be showing at film festivals!

Looks like I'm going to go back and read the book again before the dvd release.  I am not prepared to be depressed about it all over again, but I think this time, the blow will be softer than it was before. 

[Lumière]

Amanda, 

How are ya, Bud?

I was hanging out on afterellen.com the other day when I ran into a pretty good review of Affinity, the movie.
Naturally, I thought of you  and snagged some of the pics I found there to show you...











Here is the link to the Affinity review on AfterEllen.


~M 

p/s:  I am so glad Photobucket is back up after the site was hacked a few days ago.  Glad to see all pics are still there!

[Front-Ranger]

I'm quite a Sarah Waters novice but...here I am! I just obtained Tipping the Velvet today and I'm looking forward to reading it, at the recommendation of friend Amanda!!

Who else is up for joining us on this read-a-thon?

[Brown Eyes]

I'm quite a Sarah Waters novice but...here I am! I just obtained Tipping the Velvet today and I'm looking forward to reading it, at the recommendation of friend Amanda!!

Who else is up for joining us on this read-a-thon?

Yeehaw Lee!!  I'm so excited that you got the book and I can't wait to hear what you think! 

[Front-Ranger]

I'm reading about the main character's early life, it is fascinating and it reminds me very much of Memoirs of a Geisha.

[Brown Eyes]

There's definitely a very wistful feel to the way Tipping the Velvet deals with Nancy's descriptions and memories of her childhood/ teenage years as an oyster girl.  Some of those types of descriptions can be so powerful in Waters' writing.

[Lumière]

Hey girls!

Lee ~ Welcome to the SW Fan club.
Wonderful to see you here! 

Like Amanda, ! can't wait to hear what you think of Tipping the Velvet. (either when you are done, or as you go... although it might be better to get to the end before we discuss). 


Amanda ~ Thank you for convincing Lee to check out SW's work.  It is great to have another person posting in here.  Speaking of which ... didn't Lynne start reading TTV as well?  I remember she bought the book a while back.  Lynne, where are ya? 

~M

p/s: For the umpteenth time...
Affinity will be released in a few short weeks!{Aug 19th}

[Lumière]

Just in case anyone forgot... 
The Affinity release (on Amazon) is in 6 days!


So, Lee, how goes the Tipping the Velvet read??

[Brown Eyes]

Just in case anyone forgot... 
The Affinity release (on Amazon) is in 6 days!

Hi Milli! 

Yep, I'm very excited!  I'm going to order one as soon as possible.  I'm going away on a business trip at the end of the month and then I'm going to my folks spread place near Chicago for a while around Labor Day.  So, I may postpone ordering it slightly until I get back from all of that.  I wouldn't want my Amazon box to sit forlorn in my apartment building's vestibule for too long.  But, I'm super excited to see Affinity!

It will be fun to discuss it together here.

And, yes, how are you liking Tipping the Velvet, Lee?

[Front-Ranger]

I've been distracted by all that the Rocky Mountains offer in summer and haven't been reading much lately. But I am enjoying the part about the protagonist's first big crush on the music hall singer, Kitty Bolder.

[Lumière]

Amanda ~ I'm gonna place my Affinity order today or tomorrow.  I'm super excited too! 
You know what we should do?  We could set a viewing date so that we can discuss it here after watching it.


Lee ~ Great to hear you are enjoying it so far!  Looking forward to hearing your impressions later.
Btw... and the music hall singer is Kitty Butler.   

[Lumière]

Amanda ~
August 19th is here!!


You knew I would do this, didn't you? 
Did you order Affinity yet?

[Front-Ranger]

Lee ~ Great to hear you are enjoying it so far!  Looking forward to hearing your impressions later.
Btw... and the music hall singer is Kitty Butler.   

I'll remember that by thinking of her as the narrator's Rhett!! Right now, I'm reading about the impending visit of Kitty to the familiy abode.

One thing that seems odd is that Kitty has just received a visit from a stranger for the first time since the two have met. A music hall star with no visitors or friends at all?? Strange...but I suppose the explanation will come in due time.

[Lumière]

I thought I'd post this new Sarah Waters interview I found on AfterEllen:
Check it out here!   


Btw -
Happy Reading Lee! 

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda,

Still waiting for my Affinity DVD.  Grrrr...
When you get yours, lets set up a viewing/discussion date! 


~M

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Milli!

I'm here to report that I just ordered my copy of Affinity.  If all goes well, based on the shipping method I chose, I hope I will have it by Monday or Tuesday.  I'm excited!

[Lumière]

Yayy!   
I think mine will be here by Monday.  I hope!

[Brown Eyes]

Yayy!   
I think mine will be here by Monday.  I hope!

Yay!  Well, if all goes well, maybe we can schedule our coordinated viewing for Tuesday or Wednesday next week.  It sounds like lots of fun!  Do you want to be on BetterMost as we watch it and post our reactions during the viewing?  Or, should we just plan to come onto BetterMost and discuss is right after we both finish watching?

[Lumière]

Yay!  Well, if all goes well, maybe we can schedule our coordinated viewing for Tuesday or Wednesday next week.  It sounds like lots of fun!  Do you want to be on BetterMost as we watch it and post our reactions during the viewing?  Or, should we just plan to come onto BetterMost and discuss is right after we both finish watching?

I vote we watch the whole thing and then discuss afterwards.
I don't have a laptop, so if we watch and comment as we go, I'd have to pause the movie, run to the computer, post my comment and run back to the living room to continue viewing, lol.
So, are we agreed on discussing it after?

Now we just need to actually get the dvds...
Do I sound impatient enough? 

[Brown Eyes]

I agree about discussing it afterwards too.  Even with a laptop it would probably be hard to watch and post simultaneously... especially for the very first viewing.

I also ordered a copy of I'm Not There from Amazon when I ordered Affinity.  So, this should be a fun package arriving soon.

[Brown Eyes]

I just got an email from Amazon saying that my order has been shipped! 

[Front-Ranger]

I'm looking forward to seeing the discussion, and I hope there won't be too many spoilers at first.

Still reading Tipping the Velvet. The point I am at in the story is where Nancy and Kitty are setting out for London! Very exciting! Nancy's father's parting words to his daughter were particularly moving.

[Lumière]

Hey Lee!
Glad to see you are keeping up with your reading. 

It is going to be hard for us to discuss Affinity without spoilers. lol.
Amanda, any ideas? 

I just got an email from Amazon saying that my order has been shipped! 

Excellent. 
My order shipped Aug 22 but I am still waiting.  grrr.

[Front-Ranger]

I put Affinity in my movie renting queue! Wouldn't want to cause any hardships!!

On Tiipping the Velvet, things are getting more interesting now that Kitty and Nan are in London!

[Brown Eyes]

I put Affinity in my movie renting queue! Wouldn't want to cause any hardships!!

Yay Lee! I don't really see any harm in watching the DVD before reading the book.  It would be neat if the 3 of us could watch Affinity at about the same time.  I recommend renting Tipping the Velvet if you get a chance too.  It's a really well-done BBC mini-series (3 episodes all on one DVD) with very good actresses/ actors.

On Tiipping the Velvet, things are getting more interesting now that Kitty and Nan are in London!

   Things certainly get increasingly exciting from that point on.

[Lumière]

On Tiipping the Velvet, things are getting more interesting now that Kitty and Nan are in London!

There are a lot of adventures to come, Lee. 

I just got an email from Amazon saying that my order has been shipped! 

Has it arrived yet?
I am getting slightly antsy at the moment...my order has taken almost 3 weeks!   
I know... patience...patience.

[JCinNYC2006]

Sorry to be a buttinsky, but please let me know how you like Affinity.  I am a big fan of Sarah Waters, I loved the book and film of Tipping The Velvet and have Fingersmith on my list of books to read, having seen the miniseries on Logo.  Thanks!

Juan

[Brown Eyes]

Sorry to be a buttinsky, but please let me know how you like Affinity.  I am a big fan of Sarah Waters, I loved the book and film of Tipping The Velvet and have Fingersmith on my list of books to read, having seen the miniseries on Logo.  Thanks!

Juan

Heya Juan!!!  It's so cool to see you here Bud!  Join our group!  I definitely recommend reading Fingersmith.  It's such a clever, clever bit of story writing.  There's a good DVD of Fingersmith too... but in that particular case I think the book is better (although I thoroughly enjoyed the DVD too).

I think I like the book and the DVD of Tipping the Velvet about equally.

Have you read Affinity yet?  I certainly recommend it as a book too.

All three, Tipping the Velvet, Fingersmith and Affinity are very different as far as storyline goes, but in tone there's a certain similarity amongst all of them.  It will certainly be fun to finally have DVD versions of all 3 stories.  I'm excited.



But, Milli, I'm still waiting on my DVD too.  I'll be sure to post here as soon as I get it. 

This is reminding me of waiting for my BBM DVD to arrive from Amazon when it was first released.  I remember that I pre-ordered it, and then I ended up waiting about a week or so after the release date to actually receive my copy.  It was very frustrating at the time.

[Front-Ranger]

You are certainly not a buttinski, Juan! All opinions welcomed!!

[Lumière]

Sorry to be a buttinsky, but please let me know how you like Affinity.  I am a big fan of Sarah Waters, I loved the book and film of Tipping The Velvet and have Fingersmith on my list of books to read, having seen the miniseries on Logo.  Thanks!

Juan

Hey Juan ~ Good to see you here.    I second what Amanda said.

But, Milli, I'm still waiting on my DVD too.  I'll be sure to post here as soon as I get it. 

This is reminding me of waiting for my BBM DVD to arrive from Amazon when it was first released.  I remember that I pre-ordered it, and then I ended up waiting about a week or so after the release date to actually receive my copy.  It was very frustrating at the time.

Amanda ~
I ordered the dvd from CDUniverse (after the release date) because Amazon had posted a note that said the dvd "Ships in 8 to 11 days" (or something to that effect).  CDUniverse said it shipped in a day or two (and I have never had any issues with them before) ...so I went with them. I shoulda stuck with Amazon, lol.

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Milli!

I went home for lunch today and discovered my package from Amazon had been delivered this morning!  Yeehaw!

That really was pretty fast for Amazon since I only ordered the DVDs late last week.

So, now I have my copy of Affinity and also of I'm Not There.

I'm excited.

[Lumière]

Excellent news, Amanda. 

Did you see I'm Not There in theatres? (I never got the chance..)

[Brown Eyes]

Excellent news, Amanda. 

Did you see I'm Not There in theatres? (I never got the chance..)

Heya,

Nope, I've never seen I'm Not There before (and I still haven't watched it yet).  One of the main reasons I got it is to see if I think it might be a movie my Dad might like (planning gift ideas for down the road...) because he's a major Bob Dylan fan.

I have, now at this point seen Affinity though!   I just finished watching it.


My advice to Lee now that I've seen it is... I definitely recommend finishing reading Tipping the Velvet (and/ or watching the DVD of Tipping the Velvet) before you watch Affinity.  Tipping the Velvet is definitely Waters' most promient story and I think it's the best story to start with.  I think you'll probably find Affinity really interesting and thought provoking, but it has a very different spin to it and different tone/ emphasis in general compared to Tipping the Velvet. 


First Review, with some spoilers, but not really too many.  Mostly overall description... ***

Following on my recommendation to Lee above... essentially, in a nut shell, Tipping the Velvet is a much happier story.



Wow is Affinity intense!  It's a beautiful production.  The costumes, sets, etc. are really lovely and interesting and the actors are very good.  It's nice that it's simply one movie and not chopped into different episodes.  But, man, is it depressing and almost brutal.  It's a very thoughtful, interesting story (as we know from the book).  But, at this stage I'd forgotten how different the overall direction of Affinity is from something like Tipping the Velvet.  If someone is looking for a positive story about lesbian relationships and the potential for solid and romantic lesbian relationships, then Tipping the Velvet is the story/ DVD to turn to for sure.  Affinity goes way in the other direction.  But, it's a very good film. 

One of the good things about Waters as a storyteller, I think, is her capacity for the "surprise twist"... best illustrated in Fingersmith IMHO, but also done very well in Affinity.  In Tipping the Velvet Waters is good about introducing both positive and negative characters, situations and scenarios with regards to lesbian relationships, identity and lesbian society.  And, Affinity is the same way with a much bleaker overall outlook and heavier emphasis on the negative.  The protagonist is such an earnest, likeable character that your heart just bleeds for her and the circumstances she endures.  So, the protagonist is the primary "positive" element (as far as lesbian identification goes) while the plot and characters that swirl around her are so difficult.

The whole subject of Spiritualism in Victorian society is interesting enough.  It seems like such a mysterious aspect of Victorian society and it's really amazing to realize how popular amd prevalent it was.

I'll hold off on saying much more until other folks have watched it.

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda,

I simply can't wait to see it now! 
I was sorta depressed after reading the novel, but hopefully the blow will be softer this time around (then again, maybe not..).

Cant wait to get into the discussion of this film....


Thanks for reporting back with a positive review, Bud. =)


~M

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Amanda,

I simply can't wait to see it now! 
I was sorta depressed after reading the novel, but hopefully the blow will be softer this time around (then again, maybe not..).

Cant wait to get into the discussion of this film....


Thanks for reporting back with a positive review, Bud. =)


~M

Thanks Milli!  And, for the record, I fully intend to watch Affinity again for our joint viewing once you receive your copy.

[Lumière]

Thanks Milli!  And, for the record, I fully intend to watch Affinity again for our joint viewing once you receive your copy.

Sounds good, Amanda. 

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda,

I found an 'Affinity' clips video on Youtube and I couldn't resist checking out a few seconds of it before closing it in haste, lol. (I don't want too many spoilers).  There was this shot of Margaret sitting  at her desk, hugging her journal in silence... the mood seems so somber, sad (no surprise there, given the subject matter..)...
Dang, I am on the verge of ordering the dvd (again) from Amazon this time..   :|

[Front-Ranger]

Thanks for your comments! I am making better progress on Tipping the Velvet now that Nan and Kitty are a duet...in more ways than one!

It looks like I won't get my Affinity until I return The Prestige, and I'm not ready to return it cause I can't figure it out!!

[Lumière]

It looks like I won't get my Affinity until I return The Prestige, and I'm not ready to return it cause I can't figure it out!!

I bought The Prestige but have not watched it yet. 

Have fun with the unfolding Nan/Kitty drama! 
You know that we'll be expecting you here for a chit-chat when you're done, right?
Just a gentle reminder. 

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Milli! Any sign of your Affinity copy yet??

[Lumière]

Heya Milli! Any sign of your Affinity copy yet??

No sign yet.  sigh.

[Lumière]

While I've been stomping my foot waiting for Affinity, I've been reading another wonderful period novel by Elana Dykewomon (Love her name.. ) called Beyond the Pale.

I typed out the summary (from the back of the book)..Here goes:

Set in the early 20th century, Beyond the Pale follows the lives of Chava and Gutke, two women born in a Russian-Jewish settlement who ultimately immigrate to New York's Lower East Side.  This is an honest and passionate look into a specific past: a world of midwifery; Russian pogroms; the immigrant experience and the New York suffrage movement.  It is an enduring tale of triumph, love and courage over inhumanity.  But at its heart lies the most universal story if all: the devotion of one person to another.

I have not finished it yet and I must say it is really hard to put down.  It has been a very fun/moving read so far and I can't seem to stop thinking about the world I experience when I pick up the book and dive right in.


Amanda - I think you will so love this book.  Have you read it yet?  I gravely encourage it. 
There is so much to discuss in it too.
I think I may just hound you until you order the book and start reading! 

[Brown Eyes]

While I've been stomping my foot waiting for Affinity, I've been reading another wonderful period novel by Elana Dykewomon (Love her name.. ) called Beyond the Pale.

I typed out the summary (from the back of the book)..Here goes:

Set in the early 20th century, Beyond the Pale follows the lives of Chava and Gutke, two women born in a Russian-Jewish settlement who ultimately immigrate to New York's Lower East Side.  This is an honest and passionate look into a specific past: a world of midwifery; Russian pogroms; the immigrant experience and the New York suffrage movement.  It is an enduring tale of triumph, love and courage over inhumanity.  But at its heart lies the most universal story if all: the devotion of one person to another.

I have not finished it yet and I must say it is really hard to put down.  It has been a very fun/moving read so far and I can't seem to stop thinking about the world I experience when I pick up the book and dive right in.


Amanda - I think you will so love this book.  Have you read it yet?  I gravely encourage it. 
There is so much to discuss in it too.
I think I may just hound you until you order the book and start reading! 

Thanks for the recommendation Milli!  I'll add it to my "to read" list.   At the moment I'm reading a book that Elle recommended at a bookshop in Seattle while I was visiting her in June.  It's called Prodigal Summer by Barbara Kingsolver.  I'm only about 120 pages into it.  And, I'm liking it so far.  The other book I have waiting in the wings is Lonesome Dove.  I'm feeling the need to read that for the sake of fleshing out what I know about McMurtry's writing and point of view, etc.  I feel like that's a major bit of writing that I've missed so far in my reading experience, so I think it will be good to read... but the Brokeback connection tipped me over the edge into actually buying it.  But, it's alway a good thing to another book to the reading list that involves women's relationships.  I'll probably even postpone Lonesome Dove in favor of the book you suggest here.

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda,


Isn't Lonesome Dove like 900 pages or so??
Beyond the Pale is a must-read! 
Read it first! 

[Lumière]

Amanda,

My copy of Affinity has finally arrived!!!  

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Amanda,


Isn't Lonesome Dove like 900 pages or so??

Yes, that's the reason it will slip down the "to read" list.  That's why it always slips down the "to read" list. 

No worries.  I'll read Beyond the Pale. 

My copy of Affinity has finally arrived!!!  

Whoooo - eeeee!!! Yeah!

[Lumière]

Okay, wanna make plans for a discussion date?

[Lumière]

I am watching Affinity tonight!!  Yay.
You are going to re-watch it, right Amanda?

[Brown Eyes]

I am watching Affinity tonight!!  Yay.
You are going to re-watch it, right Amanda?

OK!  I'll re-watch it tonight.  Maybe we can begin our discussion tomorrow (or even late tonight)!

[Lumière]

Ok.
Maybe even late tonight.
Let's see how it works out. 

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda! 

I am a minute or two away from my Affinity viewing.
I guess you are two hours ahead of me here.
When I am done, I'll come over here and see if you are around.
If not, we always have tomorrow to commence our chitchat. 


~M

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Amanda! 

I am a minute or two away from my Affinity viewing.
I guess you are two hours ahead of me here.
When I am done, I'll come over here and see if you are around.
If not, we always have tomorrow to commence our chitchat. 


~M

***edit***  Milli your post just came in as I was clicking on the "post" button for what I just wrote here below!!  So, you may want to wait to read the rest of this post until you're done watching.  But, I don't think anything I wrote here constitutes a real spoiler.  My post here is mostly just my overall impression still (much like my earlier post after my first viewing).


**************

Ok.
Maybe even late tonight.
Let's see how it works out. 

Heya Milli!

So, I just finished watching it again.  And, I'll refrain from saying too much until you post your initial reactions.

I'll just reiterate a few things that I posted after my first viewing of it, and some heightened impressions after this second viewing.  First off, it really is a good bit of storytelling/ story writing.  And, the Waters is so good at twists and turns that can really be unexpected.  I think Waters' surprise endings and surprise turns in her plots can be brilliant.  The amazing plot twist in Fingersmith is so great as a piece of storytelling, and even though it's a frustrating plot twist for a lot of the second half of the story, at least the resolution at the very end is positive.  Affinity is interesting in its dark tone compared to certainly Tipping the Velvet, but also to even Fingersmith.  With Affinity I keep waiting at the end for some kind of silver lining for Margaret, and it just never comes... and then the credit roll!  Yikes!


I guess not all good stories can have happy endings.

And, certain elements of Selina's trickery with "Peter Quick" and the unsuspecting young women, really are pretty disturbing. : (

Still, it's a gorgeous movie to look at in terms of costumes and set.  And, I think the actresses and actors are great.

[Lumière]

Hey Bud,

I just finished watching the movie and poured my third second glass of wine. 
I loved it...even though it hurt (yet again).
However, it brought back all the disturbing images I had when I was reading the novel.

I thought it was a pretty good adaptation of the book.
Margaret to me couldn't have been more spot on. Her look and personality and..
I just loved her performance particularly.


Gosh.
Where shall we begin this discussion.
I think tomorrow, my thoughts would've settled down a bit.
My heart still aches for Margaret. 


Shall we continue tomorrow? 
There is much to discuss, I am sure.


Night.
~M

[Brown Eyes]

Gosh.
Where shall we begin this discussion.
I think tomorrow, my thoughts would've settled down a bit.
My heart still aches for Margaret. 


Shall we continue tomorrow? 
There is much to discuss, I am sure.


Night.
~M

Night Milli!

Sure enough!  We should certainly continue to discuss tomorrow.

And, I agree that my heart bleeds for poor Margaret.  She's really a great character.  She seems to be this sweet, intelligent, open person surrounded by all these really difficult people (not to mention deceptive people).

The actress who played Selina was fantastic too I thought (and really gorgeous). 

But, yes!  More discussion tomorrow.   For now I'm a little sleepy.

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda, 

I might be able to check back here on and off through the day, but I've been thinking of Affinity (of course) and thought to get the ball rolling.
I'll come back with my thoughts too...

What part/scene of the movie haunts you the most?

*** Affinity Spoilers below...  *** 

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Amanda, 

I might be able to check back here on and off through the day, but I've been thinking of Affinity (of course) and thought to get the ball rolling.
I'll come back with my thoughts too...

What part/scene of the movie haunts you the most?

Well, I don't know if it haunts me the most.  But, some of the most complicated questions seem to swirl around what Selina's true feelings were at the end.  As she's going to bed her last night in the prison (when Margaret is still there) she says she's sorry (in an enigmatic way, and Margaret doesn't understand what she means... of course we realize what she might mean by the end of the film).  She seems remorseful (but it's hard to know how to read Selina to know if she's being honest).  Also, I'm very curious about her thoughts at the very, very end when she's in Venice.  The filmmakers make it seem like she's (mysteriously or psychiclly) responding emotionally to Margaret's suicide.  But, her emotions may be tied to simpler notions of guilt, regret, etc.  I wonder if she had true feelings for Margaret?

The interesting thing, to me about my emotional reaction to Selina, is that (prior to the revelation of just how much of a con artist she is) I find myself really wanting to believe she has these magic, spiritual powers even though I know it's preposterous (and even though I know the story from the book).

[Lumière]

I should start by saying that I agree with you Amanda - about the overall production of the movie, the actresses, the performances, the sets.  It was wonderfully done and the script was pretty faithful to SW's book.  That was something I appreciated immensely.

Selina definitely embodied the mystery that she had in the book.  She had that quiet beauty which caught Margaret's eye the moment she first cast eyes on her.  I loved that scene - the image of Serena sitting in the light with a purple flower in her hand...couldn't have been truer to the picture SW painted in her novel.  Selina is definitely a fascinating character.

Like I mentioned in my post last night, Anna Madeley really was Margaret personified, IMO.  She looked exactly how I saw Margaret as I read the story.  She spoke volumes with her eyes, her posture.. she just brought Margaret to life.

Speaking of Selina and Margaret's relationship...

I personally think that Margaret is attracted to Selina the instant she sees her sitting alone in her cell with that little flower in her hand.  She looked almost ethereal. I think after a few visits to Millbank, she finds an escape from her own claustrophobic life in Selina's prison cell, ironically.  I would really like to believe that Selina developed a genuine attachment to Margaret.  After all, each one saw in the other something she wanted:

- Margaret found the possibility to love again after the devastating end of her relationship with Helen.  I believe she felt like Nan was feeling when she said, "I was beginning to sense a bit of my old self back" (after she saw Flo for the first time).  Margaret rediscovered her buried sexuality, her longings, the more Selina drifted into her life.  She began to leave Helen behind.

- Selina, on the other hand, saw Margaret as a way out of Millbank, no doubt.  I don't know when exactly she hatched out her plan, but she must have been aware of Margaret's feelings very early on in order to set the plan into motion.    She was desperate, anyone would be if they were cooped up in a dingy place like Millbank.  She might've loved Margaret but that love was clearly not enough to keep her from betraying her as thoroughly as she did.



One of the moments that stay with me still - when Margaret visits Selina to tell her that she has everything ready for their escape.  When Selina starts to get ready for bed, Margaret says, "Let me look at you"... you can hear the longing in her voice and see it in her face.  That moment was captured so beautifully.  If only Margaret knew what Selina meant when she said, "I'm sorry.." *sigh* 


Now, what did you make of that Theophilus fellow?  He was not in the novel.
All I'll say for the moment is - that beard irritated me to no end. LOL

[Lumière]

 Also, I'm very curious about her thoughts at the very, very end when she's in Venice.  The filmmakers make it seem like she's (mysteriously or psychiclly) responding emotionally to Margaret's suicide.  But, her emotions may be tied to simpler notions of guilt, regret, etc. 

The idea that Selina can somehow 'sense' Margaret's suicide suggests that perhaps they are 'Affinities', perhaps they are two halves of the same soul as Selina had described it to Margaret.  Perhaps she (Selina) is also a victim, a puppet in her life with Ruth Vigers.

Then again, like you said, it might've been a simple combination of guilt, regret.

[Brown Eyes]

Thanks for that great review M!

So, what do you make of the relationship between Selina and Ruth Vigers?  It's hard to really get a grasp on how the dynamics of their situation work... and how much genuine affection they have for one another.


Oooooooooo, and you brought up Helen!  She's such a frustrating character.  She seems so sweet and likable, but what a terrible thing... to break up with Margaret only to marry her brother.  Ugh.  But, I also feel really sorry for Helen.  She reminds me a lot of Ennis (except she has a cheerier disposition than Ennis).  She seems to have turned to a conventional lifestyle out of a desire for security, etc.  As Margaret immediately notes, it's very sad when she talks about her married life not being "so bad."

I have lots of other observations and questions, but am still at work...  So, I need to run for now.

[Lumière]

Hey bud. 

So, what do you make of the relationship between Selina and Ruth Vigers?  It's hard to really get a grasp on how the dynamics of their situation work... and how much genuine affection they have for one another.

I think that Ruth and Selina were partners in love and crime... in a sort of codependent and dysfunctional relationship.
Vigers was older and seemed to have control over Selina from the start.
She probably came up with some of the big ideas for their 'schemes'.
What was that remark she made to Selina in the end?  "Remember whose girl you are."  This suggests some skewed power dynamics to me.

And, certain elements of Selina's trickery with "Peter Quick" and the unsuspecting young women, really are pretty disturbing. : (

I couldn't agree with you more about this..hence my use of the word dysfunctional above.
They were willing to do absolutely anything, it would seem, to get money.

Makes me wonder if Vigers was the brains behind the whole Peter Quick scam.  Wouldn't doubt it.
Boy, I need to read the novel again. 

[Lumière]

...
No worries.  I'll read Beyond the Pale. 

Was meaning to reply to this.. 

You have to read it.  You will love it, I am sure.
I am getting to the final chapters now and I don't feel ready to finish the novel yet.

Let me know when you get it!   

[Lumière]

Okay, back to Affinity for a moment...


I was wondering why they added the Theophilus character to the film.
He didn't really seem to serve a purpose except maybe to add another layer of nagging irritation to Margaret's life (from her perspective anyway), what with her controlling mother, and the unfinished business with Helen.   I guess his presence emphasized the point that Margaret was not interested in marriage (she kept turning down his proposals and advances).. she was not willing to take the conventional route as Helen had done. 

I would love to hear some of your thoughts on the Theo character.
After watching the film yesterday for the first time, I figured it could've done without him, lol, but I need another viewing.  Maybe I am missing something other than the points mentioned above.

[Lumière]

A little bit about Helen...

You are right.  She is a likeable enough character... even though she is a source of pain for Margaret.
We know that they must've loved each other a lot when they were younger.  But Helen 'grew up' and decided that it was time to live more 'conventionally'.
Remember when Kitty told Nan:  "Can't you see?  We couldn't carry on as we were.." before going off and marrying Walter Bliss...  Same kind of deal here.  Margaret was still very much in love in Helen.  We can see that.  It didn't help that Helen was married to her brother and was forever in her life, never allowing Margaret the space to completely move on.

I wish Margaret had found the happiness and love she craved.
I just wish things had worked out differently with Selina. 

  As Margaret immediately notes, it's very sad when she talks about her married life not being "so bad."

I know. 

[Front-Ranger]

I am definitely enjoying Tipping the Velvet. I read it every nite, even though I have plenty of other books waiting to read. I so love Nan's attitude which is so much like mine. Every time I become enamoured of a female friend, I just want to nurture and take care of her and indulge her every whim. However, I am always thwarted somehow. I remember how my latest crush was getting ready for her birthday, which was to be on Valentine's Day.  I made reservations at a romantic spa in the mountains and arranged to take her to dinner a few days ahead of time to proposition her. But when I did meet her for dinner, she spent quite a bit of time on her Blackberry, and then told me that her bf was taking her to <choke> Paris for her birthday. I can't possibly compete with that!! I still think I could compete, in another department. But for now, the jury is out.

[Brown Eyes]

Lee, I'm so glad you're continuing to like Tipping the Velvet!  When you're done reading it, I highly recommend renting the DVD too.

A little bit about Helen...

You are right.  She is a likeable enough character... even though she is a source of pain for Margaret.
We know that they must've loved each other a lot when they were younger.  But Helen 'grew up' and decided that it was time to live more 'conventionally'.
Remember when Kitty told Nan:  "Can't you see?  We couldn't carry on as we were.." before going off and marrying Walter Bliss...  Same kind of deal here.  Margaret was still very much in love in Helen.  We can see that.  It didn't help that Helen was married to her brother and was forever in her life, never allowing Margaret the space to completely move on.

Yes, I agree with your interpretation of Helen, and the parallels between her decisions and Kitty's.  I feel like Helen and Kitty probably represent the life circumstances for lots and lots of historical lesbians.  The fact that they give in and get married probably accounts for some of the reason that lesbian history seems so invisible sometimes.  And, I still think there are lots of ways that the Helen/ Kitty type characters present a parallel to an Ennis-type character... in getting married mostly out of a concern for convention and security.

Margaret seems like another major category of historical lesbian... the lonely, mature woman who would probably have been called a "spinster" in some circles because she's older and refuses to get married.

How do you think Selina figured out that Margaret was a lesbian?  With Margaret's prim and proper exterior, I'd think it would be really, really, really hard to tell.

Thinking of Margaret's image... I absolutely loved her costumes.  Just gorgeous.  And, one of my favorite images when it comes to the contradiction of the loveliness of Victorian women's clothing and the way that clothing was completely confining... is the scene where Margaret tries to climb that ladder quickly.  It's interesting to see that she can climb the ladder successfully, but it looks really difficult in all those skirts, etc.

So, I have another question about Margaret... she seems to have a pretty good capacity for being "sneaky"... figuring out how to be left alone in the room with the prisoners' belongings... figuring out how to run back to Selina's cell for a quick final word towards the very end, etc.  What do you think this says about her?  It seems a bit like an anomaly compared to her overall image.

[Lumière]

A side note on Beyond the Pale... (not to be a nag or anything, Amanda...  )

I finished reading the novel, and the ending held a surprise that gripped me much like Affinity did.
Very moving and definitely unexpected.
I have started another novel which I hope will be a 'lighter' read...it is called
The Ladies [of Llangollen] by Doris Grumbach.
So far so good...


Anyway, back to Affinity & Sarah W. ...

[Lumière]

How do you think Selina figured out that Margaret was a lesbian? 

Interesting question.  I wondered about it too..

- Either Selina had incredible 'gaydar' (even before it had a name).. 
- Or her spirits really did inform her of Margaret's sexuality (highly unlikely)..
- Or she ventured a wild guess based on Margaret's attentions..  ( she had nothing to lose if she was wrong ).

By the way, wasn't Ruth already in the picture when Margaret's visits to Millbank began?  By that point, my guess is that Vigers had already started reading her diary and consequently picked up Margaret's entries on Helen.

[Lumière]

So, I have another question about Margaret... she seems to have a pretty good capacity for being "sneaky"... figuring out how to be left alone in the room with the prisoners' belongings... figuring out how to run back to Selina's cell for a quick final word towards the very end, etc.  What do you think this says about her?  It seems a bit like an anomaly compared to her overall image.

I think that Margaret (& Helen both) would've needed to have, as you said, a pretty good capacity for being "sneaky".
They were lovers after all.  They would've had to pretend to be 'just pals'  in front of the prying eyes of families and friends.
Even after Helen got married, I am sure Margaret strove for little moments alone when she could express her longing for Helen.

When Selina entered the picture, Margaret had to find a way to satisfy her curiosity as well as express her growing feelings using any means she could.  I think she did what she had to given the circumstances they were both in.

So I guess with these points in mind, I don't see those acts as an anomaly.  Well, perhaps an anomaly to the image she tried hard to portray.

[Lumière]

While there is a little lull in our Affinity discussions....How about some....
















.... because Nan is always lingering somewhere in a corner of my mind!

[Lumière]

Amanda -  where are ya, Bud? 

Lee - You almost done with Tipping yet?   


Yet another side note on the book I am reading now ...
To Believe in Women:  What Lesbians Have Done For America - A History(1999) by Lillian Faderman.

From Amazon.com
Taking up where her 1981 classic, Surpassing the Love of Men, left off, Lillian Faderman reveals that many of the early leaders who fought for women's suffrage, higher education for women, and women's entrance into "male" professions would in today's parlance be called lesbians: "women who lived in committed relationships with other women." Unencumbered by the duties of marriage and motherhood, they were more likely to have the time, energy, and freedom to work for women's rights. In fact, they were more or less obliged to try to better women's lives, Faderman argues, for there was no man to represent them at the polls or support them financially. (Although Elizabeth Cady Stanton's husband and seven children failed to distract her from the cause, her friend Susan B. Anthony used to help her with the children and housework before they settled down for political strategy meetings.) During the Depression, when women's social and economic gains began to dwindle, it was these "single" women who kept professions open while married women were being fired in favor of men. Faderman gracefully surveys a century of advancement and retreat, shedding light on America's debt to women-loving women. --Regina Marler --


What an amazing writer/historian... It is a fascinating read. 
I am just starting the third chapter but so far, so very good. 

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Milli!  I'm right here Bud... ain't goin' nowhere.    I've been glued to the TV more than usual lately with all the crazy news going on, so I've been on BetterMost a little less the last few days (plus things have been pretty busy at work too, so I don't think I've been posting quite as much as usual this week so far).

Anyway, thanks for the great pictures in your earlier post.  I love that pic of Zena kissing Nan's ear.  It's so hard to think about Zena taking off in the middle of the night with the little bit of money they had.  Nan was still so hopeful as she fell asleep (even in that awful shelter she was so optimistic), only to wake up to be so disappointed.  I was actually genuinely surprised that Zena would betray Nan like that, she really hadn't seemed the type earlier.  It's also sort of interesting to realize that the actress would go on to play a real, hardened thief in Fingersmith.

I wanted to let you know that I received my copy of Beyond the Pale in the mail tonight!  Yeehaw.   I'm really looking forward to reading it.  And, will of course keep you posted.

To Believe in Women really is a fascinating book.  I already have that book!    Gay and lesbian history truly is riveting to read about.

So, now I have a recommendation... I don't remember if I've mentioned this book before or not.  It's called Strangers: Homosexual Love in the Nineteenth Century by Graham Robb.  It deals with subjects pertaining to both gay women and gay men.  It's a page-turner it's so interesting.  My best gay male friend recommended it to me.  Actually, I started reading it once at his apartment and ended up borrowing it to finish it... and then I bought my own copy.


And back to a few Affinity points...
I think your suggestion about Vigers reading Margaret's diary and conveying the information about the Helen-relationship to Selina is very good.  I bet that's the answer to the question about how Selina could have figured out so quickly that Margaret was a lesbian (particularly given Margaret's prim and proper appearance, etc.).

So, I have a general question to keep the Affinity discussion flowing.  How do you feel about Selina?  I mean, by the end after we know everything... do you have sympathy for her on any level and how drastically does your opinion of her change?  Prior to the big revelation about what Selina was really up to... how do you feel about Selina (in terms of liking her/ not liking her... being intrigued/ being suspicious or skeptical, etc.)?


I also have a big overarching question about these 3 Waters' stories that have been turned into film versions...  What common denominators do you see in Waters' themes/issues/plot devices and storytelling strategies do you see.  To me one of the most obvious storytelling device that Waters uses in all three... and to varying degrees of subtlty... is the surprise plot twist that changes the reader/viewer's understanding of the entire situation.  But, it seems like there are actually a lot of themes, etc. that run through all 3 of these stories. 

Somehow I tend to think of these 3 as a kind of informal trilogy for some reason, with Nightwatch being a slightly separate thing.

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda! 

Great discussion topics you have brought up!
I shall return later today with my response to your questions.   


First,
You got Beyond The Pale!! Fabulous.     Definitely keep me posted on that score.

Also, I just ordered the book you recommended (Strangers: Homosexual Love in the Nineteenth Century ) from Amazon!

I am thoroughly enjoying To Believe in Women.  It get goosebumps as I read the enormous challenges these women went through to bring us to the point where we are today.  It is also fascinating to get a glimpse into their loves and relationships with other women, especially around the turn of the century when the innocence of "romantic friendships" was starting to fade away. 


Here are a few items on my reading list in the very near future..

   
Odd Girls And Twilight Lovers by Lillian Faderman

Life Mask & Slammerkin by Emma Donoghue (Thanks for the recommendation!)

The Collected Stories of Elizabeth Bowen by Elizabeth Bowen

Well Of Loneliness by RadClyffe Hall  (been meaning to read this book forever...)

and a few more...(including "Strangers" which you just recommended! ) 


I shall be back to resume our SW discussion!


~M

[Front-Ranger]

Speaking of surprise plot twists, I just encountered one in Tipping the Velvet. It's a good thing there was a bit of a spoiler about it here, because if I'd read it cold, it might have caused me to choke on my chardonnay!!

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Milli!

That's quite a reading list you have!  I really liked Life Mask.  And, given that it's lesbian story in a historical context (somewhat like a lot of Waters' writing), I think you'll probably enjoy it too.  It's well written and pretty complex as a story.

On the other hand, I have never been able to get through The Well of Loneliness.  I've tried a couple times and for some reason I always lose interest in it.  It's such a classic I keep giving it a shot.  Maybe I'll try again one of these days. Maybe I'll put that back on my list to follow Beyond the Pale and then Lonesome Dove (and I'm still working on finishing Prodigal Summer before I start anything new... that was the book Elle recommended when I saw her in Seattle this summer).

Speaking of surprise plot twists, I just encountered one in Tipping the Velvet. It's a good thing there was a bit of a spoiler about it here, because if I'd read it cold, it might have caused me to choke on my chardonnay!!

   Which plot twist have you come upon Sister Mod?

[Lumière]

Greetings Amanda & friends..


Affinity Spoilers below...






Prior to the "big revelation" ...(I'm going back to when I read the book for the first time)..
I really believed that Selina loved Margaret.  I was not sure what to make of Peter Quick and the apparition of Selena's hair or the purple flowers in Margaret's room.  There were lingering doubts in the back of my mind.  But not unlike Margaret, I trusted Selina and actually started to believe it all;  I got sucked into Margaret's blossoming love and excitement about the prospect of being in love and being loved in return.  I got so carried away with her that when everything 'came out', I felt like I had been punched in the face.  I remember tossing and turning in my bed till 5am the night I finished the book; wondering how I could've been so fooled.

Bottom line is ... Selina was evil.   
She was scamming Margaret from the beginning, pretty much.  Once she knew who Margaret was and how much value her friendship could be, she played along so well.

To be fair, I tried to look at circumstances from Selina's perspective -
* she was desperate, (Millbank was not anyone's idea of a good life, quite the opposite in fact)
* she had a lover on the outside she really wanted to be with (Vigers)..
I can understand that she was in dire straights.  The thing is, she didn't just swindle Margaret out of a little bit of money.  Her deception was very well thought-out; quite the intricate scheme she worked out.  In the end, it was not just financially, emotionally damaging to Margaret.. it was much more.

What is so devastating about it all was that Margaret was already in a delicate state - she was recovering from an attempted suicide, after loosing two very important people in her life - Helen & her father.  She was lonely and tired of her claustrophobic life and controlling mother.  Then here comes Selina, beautiful, mysterious, charming, talking of twin souls and affinities...  Margaret didn't stand a chance.  I mean, who would have anticipated the depths of deception that were revealed later?  Margaret certainly didn't.  Neither do we as first-time readers of the book or first-time viewers of the film.  That is what hurts me so much about Selina - all the layers of lies.

I think that there was a point when her heart softened with the frequency of Margaret's visits..  Maybe she genuinely felt something for Margaret.  I am still struggling with that; going back and forth perhaps.   Whatever it was, it certainly wasn't enough to save Margaret from betrayal in the end.  Did Serena really feel nothing when Margaret said she might die if they couldn't be together?  I wonder.  She knew the contents of Margaret's journal.  She knew her state of mind...all the more reason why her betrayal is so...brutal.

After all is said and done, my sympathies lie with Margaret. 


On to your next question a little later... 

[Lumière]

Amanda:

My copy of "Strangers" arrived in the mail today..along with 7 other intriguing books to read!  (I just need a few more hours in a day, lol)..

Tell me, didja start "Beyond the Pale" yet? 


~M

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda! 

I also have a big overarching question about these 3 Waters' stories that have been turned into film versions...  What common denominators do you see in Waters' themes/issues/plot devices and storytelling strategies do you see.  To me one of the most obvious storytelling device that Waters uses in all three... and to varying degrees of subtlety... is the surprise plot twist that changes the reader/viewer's understanding of the entire situation.  But, it seems like there are actually a lot of themes, etc. that run through all 3 of these stories.

I agree with you there, Amanda.. about the surprise plot twists SW uses so well in all three books.

One other theme that stands out is not just the aspect of love between women, but love between women from different classes/backgrounds in their Victorian world; and how that factors into the dynamics in these relationships. 

* In Tipping, Nan's roller coaster life after Kitty eventually leads her to Diana, who is as wealthy and proud a Sapphist as could be in her day, perhaps.    We have had, as I recall, interesting discussions in the past about Nan & Diana's relationship or 'arrangement' whatever you may call it.  There was definitely no question that Diana held the reins in that relationship... she had the money, the power..where did that leave Nan?

* In Fingersmith, Sue and Maud are clearly from different backgrounds.  When they come together, they each have their reasons for the attachment; they each seek self-betterment at the expense of the other.  Interesting how that relationship developed into something much more, even in the thick of lies and secrets.

* In Affinity, same sort of thing.  Serena is at the lowest point of her life, locked up in Millbank; Margaret is well-off, but unlike Diana in TTV, she is very closeted, depressed and thereby vulnerable in many ways.  As we both know, she sadly didn't get the girl in the end..


I think that SW portrays and uses these class differences exquisitely when she weaves her tales.
The three novels have this underlying theme running through them, yet each story is varied, rich and laden with interesting plot twists.   

[Lumière]

A bit OT but ....
When I saw this piece of news on Yahoo, I had to bring it here! 
This is the first I'm hearing about this...



"Happy-Go-Lucky"s Sally Hawkins gets Oscar buzz

By Christine Kearney



NEW YORK (Reuters) - Actress Sally Hawkins is relatively unknown in the United States but an acclaimed role in British director Mike Leigh's new film may find her on Hollywood's red carpets this awards season, a prospect she calls "gob-smacking."

The London-born Hawkins, 32, has been gaining Oscar buzz from critics for her role as Poppy -- a jokey, infectiously optimistic schoolteacher in Leigh's touching comedy "Happy-Go-Lucky" that is released in the United States on Friday.

Earlier this year she won the best actress award for the role at the Berlin Film Festival. More recently some film critics have named her as an Oscar contender for best actress while the Hollywood Film Festival just named her their breakthrough actress of the year.

With several Oscar-worthy movies yet to be released in the United States, Hawkins said she was not holding her breath, but would be a "mess" if she ever made it on stage.

"I'd probably by that point be so disturbed I don't think it would come out making any sense. It would probably be the most embarrassing Oscar speech ever," she giggled during a recent interview.

But such modesty combined with a sharp wit and intelligence is what her admirers say is typical, including Leigh, who first cast her in his 2002 film "All Or Nothing."

Leigh said Hawkins deserved an Oscar nomination, saying playing Poppy, whose carefree attitude belies a more astute and worldly perception, was more difficult than it looked.

"Because there are lots of complex things going on, she really has to be on the ball about playing the character," Leigh said. "She always has to be in the moment, it's a completely organic performance."

Leigh, 65, whose other films have won actresses Oscar nominations including Brenda Blethyn for "Secrets & Lies," said he cast Hawkins because "without question it was time to make a film that put her at the center."

As with all of the director's films, Leigh, Hawkins and the other actors improvised and developed the script together in workshops for months before filming started, a process Hawkins said is demanding, requires trust but is ultimately rewarding.

After acting in three of his films, Hawkins laughed when asked if the forthright Leigh should be indebted to her.

"I would love to say that he is indebted to me, but I think I would get a smack around the head!" she said. "But I owe him such an extraordinary amount. He was my first introduction into the world of film, and he opened my eyes in a way I can never really thank him enough for."

She said she borrowed her own philosophy on how to be happy from her parents, who were successful children's book authors and illustrators.

"What I learnt from quite an early age was it doesn't matter whatever you are doing, as long as it makes you happy and as long as you are driven by it," she said. "And not trying to please other people because then you will end up in a dead end."

She is not unknown to other directors, having appeared in Woody Allen's "Cassandra's Dream" and she recently finished filming on new movie written by British author Nick Hornby.

But if her career does keep rising, is she afraid of losing her obscurity?

"I do love my privacy, but unless you are an Angelina Jolie, well, I don't think I really have much to worry about," she said laughing.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/081008/entertainment/entertainment_us_sallyhawkins

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Milli!

Thanks for these great, thought provoking posts!!

I agree with you about Selina.  The more I think about her scheme with Margaret the more cruel Selina seems.  The deliberate way that she manipulated someone in such a fragile/ vulnerable emotional state is pretty low.  And, when you think about the Margaret deception in addition to the other cons that Selina was pulling (for instance the prison guard), the perception of Selina's character gets even worse.  She really knew how to manipulate people pulling all kinds of emotional strings.  And, then when you think about the truly disturbing treatment of the young women at the hands of Selina and "Peter Quick"/Vigers during the heyday of their spiritualist circles, things only get worse for an understanding of Selina.

To me the one aspect of Selina's situation that can evoke sympathy for me is the idea that she might have been somehow manipulated and controlled by Vigers.  But, still, the pair of them really are quite disturbing.


And, I really like your observation about Waters' frequent interest in bringing women of different classes together in her stories.  That actually reminds me a little bit of E.M. Forster, who was always very interested in the idea of personal relationships across class boundaries (Maurice is of course his best example of this with the idealized relationship between Maurice and Scudder).  The whole issue of class in Victorian and Edwardian England is so fascinating to lay on top of the issue of sexuality and sexual difference.


Another common theme within Waters's writing seems to be crime.  In Tipping, Fingersmith and in Affinity, gay characters are shown resorting to different types of criminal activity for a wide range of motivations.  In some cases the crimes seem somewhat more justified than other cases and the various characters evoke a huge range of reactions ranging from sympathy to outrage.

For instance, Nan resorting to prostitution in TTV is meant to show her desparation (it seems to me).  While there are all sorts of ways to question her judgment about resorting to that kind of activity... I don't think it causes us to like her character less or to be truly outraged at her character for the duration of the whole story. And Zena stealing the money after she and Nan get kicked out of Diana's house is a sad disappointment. Other more extreme situations in Fingersmith or Affinity evoke much different types of reactions to the various characters.  I wonder if the continual return to the theme of crime in Waters' books has anything to do with a meditation on gay people being forced to the fringes of society or pushed into desparate situations often due to the built in outsider status of gay folks (especially in a Victorian cultural context).

I really like how Waters creates a spectrum of "types" of lesbian and gay characters ranging from good/lovable/wholesome (like Flo) to truly criminal and reprehensible (like Selina and Vigers... or even Gentleman in Fingersmith).


And, thanks of the great news about Sally! 

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda!

Interesting point about the common theme of crime in the three novels! 

I guess the only gay characters in the three books who didn't resort to crime were:

* Flo, as you rightly pointed out.

* Diana, and for obvious reasons - she was a wealthy woman who wanted for nothing.   I guess her 'crime' was the way she treated, used and discarded the lovers in her life... take Nan for example.  Still, she had no reason to resort to criminal activity.

* Charlie, remember him?  The boot/knife boy from Briar.  He was most definitely in love with Gentleman.  I guess his only 'crime' was naivete. 

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Amanda!

Interesting point about the common theme of crime in the three novels! 

I guess the only gay characters in the three books who didn't resort to crime were:

* Flo, as you rightly pointed out.

* Diana, and for obvious reasons - she was a wealthy woman who wanted for nothing.   I guess her 'crime' was the way she treated, used and discarded the lovers in her life... take Nan for example.  Still, she had no reason to resort to criminal activity.

* Charlie, remember him?  The boot/knife boy from Briar.  He was most definitely in love with Gentleman.  I guess his only 'crime' was naivete. 

Thanks Milli.  In the society she describes I wonder what the actual laws were about homosexuality among women?  I'll have to study my history more carefully to get a sense of what the legal status actually was surrounding lesbians in Victorian England.  So, I wonder if somehow Waters is also making some kind of comment on the notion that simply by being who they were, these lesbian characters were already categorized as criminals regardless of any of their other activities (but again, we'd have to check the laws and the actual dates indicated in the stories).

At the very least, I think the theme of crime does serve to highlight the ideas of "outsider-status" and the idea of desperation that might come along with that kind of status.  In TTV, I think the world of vaudeville theatre also serves to represent a "fringe" area of society or a subculture that had it's own rules outside of the mainstream.

I'm fairly sure that laws pertaining to men and women might have been different in Victorian times (and at least country to country) when it comes to homosexuality.  I think in some cases lesbianism was so "invisible" to the powers-that-be it actually slipped under the radar of certain laws that targeted men.  But, a better sense of the laws pertaining to men would be interesting when it comes to a character like Gentleman.

[Lumière]

...

I'm fairly sure that laws pertaining to men and women might have been different in Victorian times (and at least country to country) when it comes to homosexuality.  I think in some cases lesbianism was so "invisible" to the powers-that-be it actually slipped under the radar of certain laws that targeted men.  But, a better sense of the laws pertaining to men would be interesting when it comes to a character like Gentleman.

Excert from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_friendship

Up until the second half of the 19th century, same-sex romantic friendships were considered common and unremarkable in the West, and were distinguished from then-taboo homosexual relationships. But in the second half of the 19th century, expression of this nature became more rare as physical intimacy between non-sexual partners came to be regarded with anxiety.


Another excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_morality
Throughout the whole Victorian Era homosexuals were regarded as abominations and homosexuality was illegal. However, many famous men from the British Isles, such as Oscar Wilde, were notorious homosexuals. Toward the end of the century, many large trials were held on the subject.



In the case of romantic friendships ( probably more between women than men), the Victorians saw it as an outlet for intense 'passions' that would eventually be quenched after matrimony.  I am sure that there is no doubt that some of these relationships were sexual, just like some were not. 
By the early 20th century, sexologists (e.g Havelock Ellis) had already began publishing books on their theories of 'sexual inversion'; the innocence of 'romantic friendships', the value of such companionship/partnerships was quickly corroded.  When Freud entered the picture, everything changed.

At the very least, I think the theme of crime does serve to highlight the ideas of "outsider-status" and the idea of desperation that might come along with that kind of status.  In TTV, I think the world of vaudeville theatre also serves to represent a "fringe" area of society or a subculture that had it's own rules outside of the mainstream.

I agree with you..
There was most definitely a subculture that lived by its own rules.
I am sure there were a few 'underground' bars like the one Nan brought Flo to (in the movie, reversed in the book).. where women who loved women could truly be themselves.  I am sure there were 'gentlemen clubs' of the same caliber as well. 

Btw, if I remember right, in Fingersmith (the novel), it was said that "in some circles", Gentleman was known as a "Nancy".  It would've been interesting to read more of Gentleman's life.

[Lumière]

Picture time...


When Margaret first saw Selina, she was...





...captivated.

This led me to think of...




I initially used this 'background image' of purple flowers in a pic of Kitty and Nan..
It definitely suits Margaret much better... the flowers, the ethereal nature of her 'vision' of Selina sitting in a shaft of light.   

[Lumière]

A bit of info from: http://community.livejournal.com/sarahwaters/ 

Sarah Waters' new book, called The Little Stranger will be published by Virago on June 4.
Here's the summary :

"In her highly anticipated new novel she remains in the 1940s but moves to rural Warwickshire, to a crumbling country manor house haunted by a dying way of life and perhaps by something more sinister ...Prepare yourself. From this wonderful writer who continues to astonish us, now comes a chilling ghost story."

Like SW mentioned in a previous interview, there is no beautiful lesbian love story in this new book. alas.
I'll be looking out for it. 

[Lumière]

So, Lee, you didn't give up on Tipping did you?   

[Lumière]

Doing a bump with a few Tipping photos...

Spotlight: Zena & Nan...

I wonder what might've developed between them if things had worked out differently.

[Lumière]

Of course, after they were 'caught in the act' and thrown out, I always thought it rather unfortunate how quickly Zena dropped Nan in exchange for a few coins.    I wonder what happened to her (Zena) after that.  I can't remember if they meet up again in the novel. 

[Front-Ranger]

The good news is, I received Affinity and am looking forward to watching it this week! The bad news is that, yes, I put aside Tipping for a little while because I needed to get ready for my vacation and because I found the part about Nan's devastation upon discovering Kitty with their agent so distressing that I needed to take a little break. I have been in a similar situation before, and revisiting it was, to put it mildly, uncomfortable!!

[Lumière]

Hey Lee,

Glad you to hear you ordered Affinity, Bud. 

I found the part about Nan's devastation upon discovering Kitty with their agent so distressing that I needed to take a little break. I have been in a similar situation before, and revisiting it was, to put it mildly, uncomfortable!!

Her devastation heals and life does indeed present her with yet another opportunity to love.  Promise. 
I hope you don't give up on it totally..!

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Sister Mod! 

I'll just echo some of Milli's sentiments here.  Great news about Affinity.  We'll look forward to your movie review.

And, definitely keep your chin up about Tipping the Velvet.... not to be too spoilerish... but, it's a pretty "feel good" book overall, so keep reading!

[Lumière]

Let us know your thoughts after you watch Affinity, Lee.
Do you have the book as well or will the movie be your official intro to the story? 

[Front-Ranger]

I saw Affinity last night! It was well acted and highly entertaining! It reminded me a bit of The Prestige with much better diction. The two lead actresses were hauntingly beautiful with the meltingest eyes and lips. The scenery was lovingly shot, even making the shower of a prison look beautiful!! Who else has seen this...I'd love to discuss.

[Lumière]

I saw Affinity last night! It was well acted and highly entertaining! It reminded me a bit of The Prestige with much better diction. The two lead actresses were hauntingly beautiful with the meltingest eyes and lips. The scenery was lovingly shot, even making the shower of a prison look beautiful!! Who else has seen this...I'd love to discuss.

Hey Lee...

You watched Affinity at last! 
Were you prepared for the ending (what with the spoilers in this thread and all) or were you completely taken aback by the turn of events?

[Front-Ranger]

Any spoilers went right over my head, so the ending totally threw me for a loop! In fact, it hasn't quite sunk in yet and I need to watch the movie again, preferably with a friend or two. What an intriguing story! I can see why you devote a whole thread to this one author.

It reminded me of The Prestige a little, too.

[Lumière]

An SW update:




The Little Stranger
by Sarah Waters
Release date:  April 30, 2009

In a dusty post-war summer in rural Warwickshire, a doctor is called to a patient at Hundreds Hall. Home to the Ayres family for over two centuries, the Georgian house, once grand and handsome, is now in decline, its masonry crumbling, its gardens choked with weeds, the clock in its stable yard permanently fixed at twenty to nine. But are the Ayreses haunted by something more sinister than a dying way of life? Little does Dr Faraday know how closely, and how terrifyingly, their story is about to become entwined with his. Prepare yourself. From this wonderful writer who continues to astonish us, now comes a chilling ghost story.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Little-Stranger-Sarah-Waters/dp/1844086011

[Front-Ranger]

I just found out that my friend Offline Chuck is a bit of a Sarah Waters fan, so we are planning to have a mini-SW festival and watch Tipping the Velvet sometime this winter!

[Lumière]

I just found out that my friend Offline Chuck is a bit of a Sarah Waters fan, so we are planning to have a mini-SW festival and watch Tipping the Velvet sometime this winter!

That is awesome, Lee!
I also recently found out that one of our friends is a big SW fan as well.  How exciting it was to discover that she has read all the SW novels and was dying to watch the movies as well.  Seeing as I have all the movies, we'll either be watching them together or I'll lend them to her.  She is also very much into reading women's history books - another passion of mine - so I reckon I'll have some books she might like to read and vice versa. 

[Front-Ranger]

Something to look forward to! I'll let everyone know when the Sarah Waters mini-festival in Denver will take place.

[Lumière]

Something to look forward to! I'll let everyone know when the Sarah Waters mini-festival in Denver will take place.

Keep us posted, FRiend.   

I think I am going to watch Tipping again this week (before I have to lend my dvd out to a friend).

[Brown Eyes]

I think I am going to watch Tipping again this week (before I have to lend my dvd out to a friend).

Have fun re-watching!!! 

And, a big congrats goes out to Sally Hawkins for winning a Golden Globe tonight!!!  What a huge upset in her category of best actress in a comedy film.

[Lumière]

Have fun re-watching!!! 

And, a big congrats goes out to Sally Hawkins for winning a Golden Globe tonight!!!  What a huge upset in her category of best actress in a comedy film.

I know!
Big congrats indeed, to our very own Susan Trinder Sally Hawkins!  

[Brown Eyes]

I know!
Big congrats indeed, to our very own Susan Trinder Sally Hawkins!  

Heya!  LOL, I was just coming in  here to post that exact photo! 

Sure enough!  Hooray for Sally!

[Lumière]

Lol.  That pic was the  only I could find of her from last night. 
I didn't watch the Golden Globes awards.  Would've love to see Sally accept her award. 

[Brown Eyes]

There are YouTubes out there of the awards.  On Heath, Heath, Heath I think some folks have posted some YouTubes of his award and Nolan's speech.  There must be some YouTubes of Sally out there somewhere.

She looked better on the actual show than she does here in this photo.

[Lumière]

The Little Stranger
by Sarah Waters


To be released on April 30, 2009.




Review [amazon.com]
Waters (The Night Watch) reflects on the collapse of the British class system after WWII in a stunning haunted house tale whose ghosts are as horrifying as any in Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House. Doctor Faraday, a lonely bachelor, first visited Hundreds Hall, where his mother once worked as a parlor maid, at age 10 in 1919. When Faraday returns 30 years later to treat a servant, he becomes obsessed with Hundreds's elegant owner, Mrs. Ayres; her 24-year-old son, Roderick, an RAF airman wounded during the war who now oversees the family farm; and her slightly older daughter, Caroline, considered a “natural spinster” by the locals, for whom the doctor develops a particular fondness. Supernatural trouble kicks in after Caroline's mild-mannered black Lab, Gyp, attacks a visiting child. A damaging fire, a suicide and worse follow. Faraday, one of literature's more unreliable narrators, carries the reader swiftly along to the devastating conclusion.

— Publishers Weekly Starred review

[Brown Eyes]

Wow!!!  What exciting news.  It sounds really scary! Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House is one of my favorite books and the original movie (1963) is fantastic.  So, if this new book is really in the same league as the Jackson book, then that's really great.

I can imagine that Waters would be good at writing a scary book... Affinity was pretty scary or at least spooky in certain ways.  It'll be fun to see Waters getting fully into that type of writing for this book.

Thanks for pointing this out!  I hadn't heard about it until you posted this.

The Little Stranger
by Sarah Waters


To be released on April 30, 2009.




Review [amazon.com]
Waters (The Night Watch) reflects on the collapse of the British class system after WWII in a stunning haunted house tale whose ghosts are as horrifying as any in Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House. Doctor Faraday, a lonely bachelor, first visited Hundreds Hall, where his mother once worked as a parlor maid, at age 10 in 1919. When Faraday returns 30 years later to treat a servant, he becomes obsessed with Hundreds's elegant owner, Mrs. Ayres; her 24-year-old son, Roderick, an RAF airman wounded during the war who now oversees the family farm; and her slightly older daughter, Caroline, considered a “natural spinster” by the locals, for whom the doctor develops a particular fondness. Supernatural trouble kicks in after Caroline's mild-mannered black Lab, Gyp, attacks a visiting child. A damaging fire, a suicide and worse follow. Faraday, one of literature's more unreliable narrators, carries the reader swiftly along to the devastating conclusion.

— Publishers Weekly Starred review

[Lumière]

I am looking forward to this new novel as well, Amanda.
SW definitely has an affinity for mysteries, no doubt.    So I'm anticipating this new novel (will pre-order it next week or so).

Like you suggested - maybe we can read it together and discuss in here. 


~M

[Brown Eyes]

I am looking forward to this new novel as well, Amanda.
SW definitely has an affinity for mysteries, no doubt.    So I'm anticipating this new novel (will pre-order it next week or so).

Like you suggested - maybe we can read it together and discuss in here. 


~M

Hi Milli,

I like the idea of reading it together.   I think I'll probably just run to a bookstore and buy it once it's released on the 30th.  I'll keep you posted.

[Lumière]

Hi Milli,

I like the idea of reading it together.   I think I'll probably just run to a bookstore and buy it once it's released on the 30th.  I'll keep you posted.

A,

The Little Stranger is already available on Amazon.com.
I'll have to wait another week or so before I can order it on amazon.ca. 
Will let you know when I get my copy!


~M

[Brown Eyes]

A,

The Little Stranger is already available on Amazon.com.
I'll have to wait another week or so before I can order it on amazon.ca. 
Will let you know when I get my copy!


~M

I'm planning on stopping by a few bookshops this weekend, so hopefully I'll be able to pick up a copy in the next day or so.

I'll wait to start reading it until you get your copy.  I probably won't start reading it until after the NYC Brokie event next weekend.

[Lumière]

I'm planning on stopping by a few bookshops this weekend, so hopefully I'll be able to pick up a copy in the next day or so.

I'll wait to start reading it until you get your copy.  I probably won't start reading it until after the NYC Brokie event next weekend.

Sounds like a deal, Amanda. 


Gotta dash.  Have a good weekend, bud.

~M

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Milli!! 

I'm here to report that I bought my copy of The Little Stranger today!   Just looking at the cover of this book makes me have a huge urge to re-read The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson. LOL, also this title keeps reminding me of The Little Friend by Donna Tartt (she's one of my favorite authors too).

Like I said, I'll hold off on starting The Little Stranger until you get your copy... so we can begin at the same time.

Also, in other news... I watched Fingersmith again last night!   Good times.  The more I watch that movie the more I'm struck by what a clever story that is.  I remember being genuinely surprised and totally caught off guard by the big twist in the middle when I read the book for the first time.

[Lumière]

Also, in other news... I watched Fingersmith again last night!   Good times.  The more I watch that movie the more I'm struck by what a clever story that is.  I remember being genuinely surprised and totally caught off guard by the big twist in the middle when I read the book for the first time.

I watched Tipping the last 2 nights.  It had been months since my last viewing.
I lent all 3 SW dvds to a friend who wanted to watch them for the longest time.
She had them for over three months and still didnt find the time to watch a single one. 
Anyway, got them back recently and decided to watch all 3 over again, starting with TTV.

Some of my favorite scenes in the movie are of Nan & Flo, especially...

..this one: Flo out of sight & watching quietly as Nan sings to baby Cyril..



and..



and..



and especially... 




Love them all.. but this one always stays with me..



I understand what she is feeling here.  An absolutely poignant moment in the film.

[Lumière]

Like I said, I'll hold off on starting The Little Stranger until you get your copy... so we can begin at the same time.

I better get a move on, then. 
Will report back when I have my copy in hand. 

I have read some great reviews of this latest SW novel.  Can't wait.

[Lumière]

It has finally arrived, Amanda! 
Love the hardcover (wish my other SW novels were not paperback).  Anyway...

When shall we begin?

[Brown Eyes]

It has finally arrived, Amanda! 
Love the hardcover (wish my other SW novels were not paperback).  Anyway...

When shall we begin?

Yeehaw!!  

Yes, it is nice to have hardcover.  My copy of Nightwatch is hardcover, but the others are paperback.  Yeah,  I wish I had nicer copies of Fingersmith and Tipping the Velvet.

Well, I can begin reading tonight if you're up for it!

I'm in the midst of reading another book right now (non-BBM and non-lesbian related)... but I don't mind reading two things at once.

[Lumière]

Okay.  Tonight is good.

So how do we set up this little book club of ours, bud?
Should we convene here after we have read a set number of chapters..
Or should we just leave whatever comments we might have?
I think it would be more fun to discuss chapters we have both covered...that's for sure.

Methinks we can 'get together' after chapter one and go from there..
Thoughts?

~M

[Brown Eyes]

Okay.  Tonight is good.

So how do we set up this little book club of ours, bud?
Should we convene here after we have read a set number of chapters..
Or should we just leave whatever comments we might have?
I think it would be more fun to discuss chapters we have both covered...that's for sure.

Methinks we can 'get together' after chapter one and go from there..
Thoughts?

~M

OK, I like the idea of being a little disciplined about it.  This way we can be sure that we're not posting spoilers.

Sure, for this first round we can just discuss Chapter 1.  I didn't look yet to see how long the chapters are in this book.  We may adjust the reading schedule once we get into the book some more.

For this session, yeah, we can read the first chapter and give our initial impressions. 

I'll post tomorrow about it for sure.

[Lumière]

...

For this session, yeah, we can read the first chapter and give our initial impressions. 

I'll post tomorrow about it for sure.

Okay,  I won't check this thread until my reading is done. =]
Would love to get through chapter 1 tonight.. but I've got to seal the grout on my new kitchen tiles tonight.. so it may not happen.. =[
We'll see how it goes tho'.

Cheers bud, 
~M

[Brown Eyes]

**report on Chapte 1**

Heya!  So, I finished reading the first chapter of The Little Stranger last night.  It's 36 pages and seems mainly to be about setting the scene and introducing a bunch of characters.  So far the narrator/ protagonist is a man, which is certainly different for Waters.  And, there's no hint of a lesbian subject yet.  The writing is very strong, but I don't feel like I have a lot to react to yet... in terms of feeling attached to the characters or even yet having much of a sense of how the narrative will progress.

So, on to Chapter 2!

[Lumière]

**report on Chapte 1**

Heya!  So, I finished reading the first chapter of The Little Stranger last night.  It's 36 pages and seems mainly to be about setting the scene and introducing a bunch of characters.  So far the narrator/ protagonist is a man, which is certainly different for Waters.  And, there's no hint of a lesbian subject yet.  The writing is very strong, but I don't feel like I have a lot to react to yet... in terms of feeling attached to the characters or even yet having much of a sense of how the narrative will progress.

So, on to Chapter 2!

Hey Bud... 

Sorry I didn't show here sooner... I have been so busy with other stuff lately.
I am working on Chapter 2 right now.

I love the narrative and the introduction we are getting to the characters thus far.  SW continues to impress with her descriptive style... I love it.
I'm with you - I'll be back with hopefully more detailed comments after chapter 2 is done.


Re: any lesbian subject - I doubt there is any in this book.  I posted about that in here.. months ago, I believe.

Here is a great interview SW did on "Little Stranger":
http://www.afterellen.com/people/2009/5/sarahwaters
Check it out. 


~M

[Brown Eyes]

Oh.  Well, somehow I forgot the detail that there's no lesbian plot or character.  It's extremely disappointing to me, because that's why I read Sarah Waters.  I thought part of her whole approach to writing was to re-insert lesbian characters, plots and points of view into otherwise conventional genres (where lesbian identity would be eliminated in conventional books).  It also seems that Waters is turning her back on the core of her audience who really look to her as one high-quality writer who tackles lesbian topics in a serious way.  To me it's the element that makes Waters as a writer special and different... as opposed to the sea of conventional books and authors out there.

Aside from all that, I'm finding this book to be very slow and so far I'm not finding myself very attached to any of the characters.
 

[Ellemeno]

Oh.  Well, somehow I forgot the detail that there's no lesbian plot or character.  It's extremely disappointing to me, because that's why I read Sarah Waters.  I thought part of her whole approach to writing was to re-insert lesbian characters, plots and points of view into otherwise conventional genres (where lesbian identity would be eliminated in conventional books).  It also seems that Waters is turning her back on the core of her audience who really look to her as one high-quality writer who tackles lesbian topics in a serious way.  To me it's the element that makes Waters as a writer special and different... as opposed to the sea of conventional books and authors out there.

Aside from all that, I'm finding this book to be very slow and so far I'm not finding myself very attached to any of the characters.
 

I don't know who Sarah Waters is (this is the only post of the thread that I've read, because I noticed it while looking at your posting history, A), but this is certainly what Rita Mae Brown has done too.  I was very disappointed by her too.  To go from Rubyfruit Jungle through her other lesbian novels to those Sneaky Pie Brown mysteries that could easily and comfortably have one or more lesbian characters, but don't, what a bummer.  She was never that great a writer, but she sure used to be honest and fairly insightful and funny.  Now she's phoning in heterosexual novels.

[Lumière]

Oh.  Well, somehow I forgot the detail that there's no lesbian plot or character.  It's extremely disappointing to me, because that's why I read Sarah Waters.  I thought part of her whole approach to writing was to re-insert lesbian characters, plots and points of view into otherwise conventional genres (where lesbian identity would be eliminated in conventional books).  It also seems that Waters is turning her back on the core of her audience who really look to her as one high-quality writer who tackles lesbian topics in a serious way.  To me it's the element that makes Waters as a writer special and different... as opposed to the sea of conventional books and authors out there.

Aside from all that, I'm finding this book to be very slow and so far I'm not finding myself very attached to any of the characters.
 

Hey bud,

Aww... did you stop reading it altogether?

I had posted in here a while ago that this novel was not going to be centered around lesbian characters.  I think you might've missed it or forgot about it.  SW had mentioned in an interview that she hopes she won't piss off too many of her lesbian readers by doing so.

As I see it, I don't think she necessarily wants to limit herself to lesbian historical fiction (even though historical fiction is still her main focus).  I can understand the need to branch out.  She is a very talented, creative writer who probably wants to explore other themes in her work.  I respect that.  I will continue reading The Little Stranger... who knows, I might get really sucked into it by the time I get to the middle of it. 

I hope you keep reading, bud. 


~M

[Front-Ranger]

Cynthia Crossen raves about Waters' books in today's WSJ Weekend Journal.

[Kd5000]

I had no idea who Sarah Waters was.  I recently read THE LITTLE STRANGER which I really enjoyed.  The characters, suspense and atmosphere were well developed.  I only picked up the book because TIME MAGAZINE had it in their listing of top pop culture choices for the week.  I got a copy from the local library. I went to Amazon.com and was curious as to why it was listed #1 on G/L books.  There were no gay or lesbian characters in the book.  I did a wikipedia on Sarah Waters and it said she usually has lesbian characters in her book.

The book did remind me of THE TURN OF THE SCREW.  Is it psychological or is there something sinister going on? After reading the book, I have my theories.  Wish I had someone to discuss it with as I don't want to post any spoilers on this thread.   

[Lumière]

Sounds like the great reviews for The Little Stranger keep coming.

The book did remind me of THE TURN OF THE SCREW.  Is it psychological or is there something sinister going on? After reading the book, I have my theories.  Wish I had someone to discuss it with as I don't want to post any spoilers on this thread.  

I will be back here when I have finished reading the book.  Perhaps we can discuss then, if the discussion hasn't already started in here. 

[Brown Eyes]

I just learned (via the Taking Woodstock thread in CT) that Imelda Staunton who played Mrs. Sucksby in Fingersmith is in the new Ang Lee movie!
Neat!

[Lumière]

I just learned (via the Taking Woodstock thread in CT) that Imelda Staunton who played Mrs. Sucksby in Fingersmith is in the new Ang Lee movie!
Neat!

I haven't seen Taking Woodstock yet, but yay for Imelda Staunton.   Love her.
The last film I saw her in was Cranford (recent Masterpiece Theatre release).  She was amazing as always. 

[Lumière]

Some Sarah Waters news ...



Sarah Waters makes the shortlist for the 2009 Man Booker Prize
by the linster
http://www.afterellen.com/blog/thelinster/sarah-waters-makes-the-shortlist-for-the-2009-man-booker-prize




Tuesday brought the announcement of the shortlist for the Man Booker Prize and lesbian author Sarah Waters is one of the six writers in contention for the prestigious award.  Waters was chosen for her novel The Little Stranger, an engaging ghost story set in postwar England.



Two of Waters’ previous books, Fingersmith and The Night Watch, made the shortlist in 2002 and 2006, respectively, but she has yet to win. This year’s winning author will receive £50,000, along with worldwide recognition and a huge boost in sales. Even though the odds-on favorite for the Booker is Hilary Mantel’s Wolf Hall, The Little Stranger has sold 50% more copies than any other title on the list and has topped many book critics’ lists of must-reads. Whether Booker judges will consider popularity remains to be seen.


When Stranger was released in May, AfterEllen.com contributing writer Heather Aimee O’Neill interviewed Waters, who wanted to assure lesbian readers that she has not abandoned them, just because her latest novel has no lesbian characters:

    “I know for myself that we don’t have so many lesbian writers and readers, filmmakers, whatever, that we feel we can afford to lose them. I don’t in any way feel that lesbians have lost me. It’s just that this book came along and the story really grabbed me.

She repeated the sentiment when she talked to The Guardian at the Hay festival and went on to discuss everything from The Little Stranger to the kind of writer she is.


Here's to hoping she wins this one!