Author Topic: TOTW 03/08: "There was some open space..." - What do you think this means?  (Read 9258 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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Monday, Monday... time for another TOTW.  :)


While we've been pretty much movie-only last week, we now have a sentence from the short story we want to focus on. The topic was suggested by LauraGigs. Thank you Laura!  :)


"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it." - What do you think this means?

The question is mainly aimed towards the first half of the sentence: what do you think Ennis "knows", and what is he trying to believe?

Does it refer to Ennis's doubts about the cause of Jack's death? Does it refer to what OMT told Ennis about 'some ranch neighbour' down in Texas (and thus Jack possibly leaving him), or to his feelings of guilt and what might have beens? Or do you have other connotations? Or may it be a mélange of all these things?




Some open space in Wyoming (photo by me)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 04:55:38 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline Sandy

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Wonderful topic. 

I'm going to refer to a comment made by a resident who's name I cannot remember in a thread I cannot find!  So, if anyone can remember the author please advise.

It went along the lines of Ennis' sexuality.  Paraphrasing, I think that the gist of it was about the first part. 

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe"

The author read it to be that Ennis knew himself to be attracted to and in love with Jack, but tried to believe it wasn't so. 

Offline serious crayons

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Beautiful pic, Chrissi! At first I thought it was a screencap, from the view out the trailer window in the last scene of the movie.

One interpretation I think is possible goes along with my belief that Jack was killed in an accident. So, "There was some open space between ..."

... what he knew: Jack had been killed in an accident

... and what he tried to believe: Jack had been murdered.

Ennis tried to believe Jack was murdered because that would justify his fears and he wouldn't have ruined both their lives for nothing.


Offline Brown Eyes

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In addition to being a reference to the murder/accident question, as Katherine mentions... I think the "open space" also has to do with Ennis's level of knowledge about his relationship with Jack.  How much did he really know vs. what did he believe about the other ranch-fellow?  Also, I think it might represent lingering questions about the issue of how much they loved each other... and whether or not that love was communicated effectively. 

For instance, in order to feel comfortable with himself and with the way things were left with Jack at their last meeting...maybe Ennis needed to believe that his capacity to love Jack was somehow effectively communicated to Jack (eventhough he never told him explicitly).  And, maybe he needed to believe that they would have been able to work things out between the two of them had Jack lived.  That the last fight really wasn't the end or a moment of giving up for Jack.  But, of course Ennis couldn't know these things for sure following Jack's death.

I think the nuance might be slightly different for the movie vs. the book.

I love the ending passages of the story. 

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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For instance, in order to feel comfortable with himself and with the way things were left with Jack at their last meeting...maybe Ennis needed to believe that his capacity to love Jack was somehow effectively communicated to Jack (eventhough he never told him explicitly).  And, maybe he needed to believe that they would have been able to work things out between the two of them had Jack lived.  That the last fight really wasn't the end or a moment of giving up for Jack.  But, of course Ennis couldn't know these things for sure following Jack's death.

Yes, that makes sense, too. I think this line is a lot like "I swear" -- it's kept ambiguous to allow for multiple interpretations.


Offline Rayn

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One interpretation I think is possible goes along with my belief that Jack was killed in an accident. So, "There was some open space between ..."

... what he knew: Jack had been killed in an accident

... and what he tried to believe: Jack had been murdered.

Ennis tried to believe Jack was murdered because that would justify his fears and he wouldn't have ruined both their lives for nothing
.


I agree with inneedcrayons, but see more to it, but first let me say, I'm so glad this topic is here because it helped me see that the line is about both Jack's Death and Ennis' Love for Jack.  It's clear evidence that Ennis loved Jack with his whole mind and body even though he had a conflict about it in his own mind.

I came to this conclusion by looking at the line in context of the paragraph in the book.  I had to consider clear indications that is had a lot to do with the way Jack died, but also with the way Ennis felt about Jack.  In the paragraph just before, about dreams Ennis had, it reads ...  "The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron.  And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets
 
Pillow (SWEAT from his Head / Mental State)   
Sheets  (Love / Emotional State expressed in Sex i.e. sweat from his whole body or maybe wet dreams [release] too.)

So it has a lot to do with death (tire iron) and sex (love) and ultimately, without doubt, it points to his painful mental & emotional conflict over both.   He wanted be believe Jack was murdered, but had no actual evidence of that except the fears from childhood that his father had imprinted on his mind. He also wanted to believe that Jack knew he loved him, even though he never said that to Jack.  In fact because of his fears, a fuller, richer life with Jack was lost. 

Thus we get the other lline "Jack, I swear..." which has become almost a "classic" topic on Bettermost, and I ain't too shy to say so!  (smile).   Yes, these lines, so close in the book, are very much related though one is a quote of Ennis and the other is narrative from the author.   

I hope that helps some.

Rayn

PS: To anyone who has ever dealt with fears of loving someone, the story can have a strong message: If fears stand in your way of loving someone, deal with and overcome them so you can give a full expression of love while you're able, which is pretty obvious, I guess, I thought I'd include it just the same.

moremojo

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What did Ennis actually know by this point in the story? He knew that Jack was dead. He knew that he was attracted to and in love with Jack, and the shirts proved that Jack had reciprocated these feelings for him.

What could he have been trying to believe that was in variance with these things? I feel uncomfortable with the interpretation that Ennis was trying to disbelieve the homosexual nature of the relationship he shared with Jack, as the whole thematic trajectory of the story seems to lead to this hard-earned awareness ("Jack, I swear--"). Right now, I'm leaning towards an attempt to believe that Jack remained in love with him to the end, that Old Man Twist's story of the ranch hand down in Texas did not indicate Jack quitting Ennis. There would have been sufficient uncertainty ("open space") for Ennis to have been able to sustain this feeling, but the uncertainty would have remained, and was probably irresolvable.

I agree that this closing sentence of the story is intentionally ambiguous, and that a variety of interpretations are not only rendered possible thereby, but probably even encouraged.

Offline nakymaton

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Wonderful topic. 

I'm going to refer to a comment made by a resident who's name I cannot remember in a thread I cannot find!  So, if anyone can remember the author please advise.

That may have been me:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,2973.0.html

I still read it as being (still, after 20 years of being in love with a man) conflicted about his sexual orientation.  But I can understand why other people would read it differently. But I've got my reasons, others have theirs; ain't one that's better than the other.

Now, I read the last sentence and think about Heath (and about all the speculation and dirt-digging that's in the media). It makes the last sentence even sadder and more powerful. :(
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Front-Ranger

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I agree with inneedcrayons, but see more to it, but first let me say, I'm so glad this topic is here because it helped me see that the line is about both Jack's Death and Ennis' Love for Jack.  It's clear evidence that Ennis loved Jack with his whole mind and body even though he had a conflict about it in his own mind.

I came to this conclusion by looking at the line in context of the paragraph in the book.  I had to consider clear indications that is had a lot to do with the way Jack died, but also with the way Ennis felt about Jack.  In the paragraph just before, about dreams Ennis had, it reads ...  "The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron.  And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets
 
Pillow (SWEAT from his Head / Mental State)   
Sheets  (Love / Emotional State expressed in Sex i.e. sweat from his whole body or maybe wet dreams [release] too.)

So it has a lot to do with death (tire iron) and sex (love) and ultimately, without doubt, it points to his painful mental & emotional conflict over both.   He wanted be believe Jack was murdered, but had no actual evidence of that except the fears from childhood that his father had imprinted on his mind. He also wanted to believe that Jack knew he loved him, even though he never said that to Jack.  In fact because of his fears, a fuller, richer life with Jack was lost. 

Thus we get the other lline "Jack, I swear..." which has become almost a "classic" topic on Bettermost, and I ain't too shy to say so!  (smile).   Yes, these lines, so close in the book, are very much related though one is a quote of Ennis and the other is narrative from the author.   

I hope that helps some.

Rayn

PS: To anyone who has ever dealt with fears of loving someone, the story can have a strong message: If fears stand in your way of loving someone, deal with and overcome them so you can give a full expression of love while you're able, which is pretty obvious, I guess, I thought I'd include it just the same.

Your words gave me an epiphany here, Rayn! I would just like to add on to what you're saying in that Annie Proulx is addressing the gulf between the sacred and the profane, between love and sex, between accident and murder, between the spoon and the tire iron, between the mountain and the plain. And the truth is, there really is no space between them, the space only exists in our minds! Okay, my mind is reeling right now!!
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: TOTW 03/08: "There was some open space..." - What do you think this means?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 08:12:22 pm »
I think it could mean different things on different levels. In the story I see it as the contradiction Ennis has, having been indoctrinated by his father that he was not a queer, and the realization he was attracted to Jack. That conflict is that space, he knew being a queer could get you killed, he tried to believe he could sublimate himself, his life, taking low playing jobs, denighing himself the comfort of Jack at his side because he didn't feel he could face up to the reality and responcibility. There is also the conflict he feels as he gets the news, accident or tire iron? He tried to believe, but he will never know for sure. There is also that panel of the dream, that he does not force his attention to.

You ever have an idea in your head and the more you try to describe it you feel it slip away like someone pulling a pillow out from under your head?

For readers and viewers that space is the unanswered questions. Did Jack really leave Ennis? Was it murder or accident? We know how we feel, but we believe we can do better. I think we are always trying to believe something.

 
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

injest

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Re: TOTW 03/08: "There was some open space..." - What do you think this means?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 08:21:04 pm »
I think it could mean different things on different levels. In the story I see it as the contradiction Ennis has, having been indoctrinated by his father that he was not a queer, and the realization he was attracted to Jack. That conflict is that space, he knew being a queer could get you killed, he tried to believe he could sublimate himself, his life, taking low playing jobs, denighing himself the comfort of Jack at his side because he didn't feel he could face up to the reality and responcibility. There is also the conflict he feels as he gets the news, accident or tire iron? He tried to believe, but he will never know for sure. There is also that panel of the dream, that he does not force his attention to.

You ever have an idea in your head and the more you try to describe it you feel it slip away like someone pulling a pillow out from under your head?

For readers and viewers that space is the unanswered questions. Did Jack really leave Ennis? Was it murder or accident? We know how we feel, but we believe we can do better. I think we are always trying to believe something.

 

all the coulda beens, what ifs, wishes...our minds try to reach a conclusion that we can live with...that makes sense with the facts we do know but can't accept.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 03/08: "There was some open space..." - What do you think this means?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2008, 09:17:17 pm »
all the coulda beens, what ifs, wishes...our minds try to reach a conclusion that we can live with...that makes sense with the facts we do know but can't accept.
'

There's some open space for us, too.


Offline delalluvia

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One interpretation I think is possible goes along with my belief that Jack was killed in an accident. So, "There was some open space between ..."

... what he knew: Jack had been killed in an accident

... and what he tried to believe: Jack had been murdered.

Ennis tried to believe Jack was murdered because that would justify his fears and he wouldn't have ruined both their lives for nothing.

This is my opinion as well.

Offline serious crayons

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This is my opinion as well.

Del, you and I are on an agreement roll lately!  ;D


Offline Penthesilea

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Beautiful pic, Chrissi! At first I thought it was a screencap, from the view out the trailer window in the last scene of the movie.

One interpretation I think is possible goes along with my belief that Jack was killed in an accident. So, "There was some open space between ..."

... what he knew: Jack had been killed in an accident

... and what he tried to believe: Jack had been murdered.

Ennis tried to believe Jack was murdered because that would justify his fears and he wouldn't have ruined both their lives for nothing.


Thanks for the compliment on the pic  :).

My interpretation is just the opposite:

... what he knew: Jack had been murdered

... what he tried to believe: the accident scenario

Ennis knew (he knew, not an objective, universal truth) it was murder because that's what he has learned from early on: being gay gets you killed. Add the neighbour from Texas, OMT's knowing expression, Lureen's admittedly questionable story plus her cold voice = Jack was murdered.

Ennis tried to believe it was an accident first and foremost because that's what you desperately wish for someone you love. Additionally, it would be less ironic for Ennis. Ennis didn't allow them being together out of fear it would get them both killed. If Jack had been killed for being gay nonetheless - Ennis' sacrifice (however conscious or unconscious) would have been in vain, at least for Jack.




'
There's some open space for us, too.


You have no idea how often this exact thought crossed my mind recently  :(
And isn't it ironic ... don't you think? (Alanis Morissette)

Offline delalluvia

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Del, you and I are on an agreement roll lately!  ;D

Heh, enjoy it while it lasts!   ;D  I'm sure some topic will come up soon so we can lock horns again.  ;)


Offline brokebackjack

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Re: TOTW 03/08: "There was some open space..." - What do you think this means?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2008, 03:42:32 am »
That's a simple one.


there was a gap between reality and what he believed to be reality and he knew it
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline serious crayons

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I'm sure some topic will come up soon so we can lock horns again.  ;)

Hope so!  ;)


Offline jstephens9

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Beautiful pic, Chrissi! At first I thought it was a screencap, from the view out the trailer window in the last scene of the movie.

So did I!!! That scene is one of the most symbolic ones in the movie to me. This was the scene which always gave me the idea that Jack was out there somewhere......and still alive. I copied your picture Chrissi. I hope you don't mind  ;)

Offline Penthesilea

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So did I!!! That scene is one of the most symbolic ones in the movie to me. This was the scene which always gave me the idea that Jack was out there somewhere......and still alive. I copied your picture Chrissi. I hope you don't mind  ;)

Of course I don't mind.
The photo was taken in LF, BTW.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 03/08: "There was some open space..." - What do you think this means?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2008, 09:25:11 pm »
That's a simple one.


there was a gap between reality and what he believed to be reality and he knew it

Brokeback Jack you are exactly correct.  Ennis was aware of his own need for an alternate reality, and allowed it to occasionally "suffuse" his daily life. That also happened to me after Chris died. It ended when I met DL and grew closer to him. For Ennis, it probably lasted the rest of his life.