Author Topic: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death  (Read 24471 times)

Offline louisev

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Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« on: January 25, 2008, 03:20:48 pm »
I know that this is a controversial subject.  However, hundreds of tributes, expressions of sorrow and a wide gamut of expressions of grief have emerged from the entire fandom around Brokeback, and among the fans of Heath Ledger, since hearing of his sudden death.  However, I am aware that open discussion of the future of fan fiction is very much affected by it, and that more than a few authors, as well as many readers, have felt uneasy about the subject of Real-Person Slash, fan fiction stories about Heath and Jake in a sexual relationship.

I myself wrote one, very reluctantly, a series of drabbles that speculated on the process Heath went through in "becoming" Ennis, and its affect upon him, and the possibility that he would have battled attractions to Jake as Jack, and was haunted by the character's secret desires.  My very first reaction, within minutes of hearing of Heath's death, was the need to remove that story from where I posted it in the Brokebackslash community.  A few other authors announced their intention to put their RPS stories on temporary or permanent hold, and many readers expressed mixed emotions - some feeling as though they wanted to keep the stories as a memento, and others that they could not bear to read them.

But because discussion has been largely quelled in other forums, I thought it was important to give the readers and the authors here a forum to express their own feelings about the future of RPS fiction, and also about general slash fiction if they wish.  I have very strong feelings that writing any new RPS stories is disrespectful to the dead.  Others feel completely differently about it.  However you do feel, please feel free to express your opinion here, and be mindful of our policy of No Personal Attacks.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


mvansand76

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2008, 03:35:24 pm »
Thank you for starting this thead, Louise. Other than responding to your post on bbslash I have personally hardly participated in the discussions on (the continuation of) RPS stories.

I don't read or write RPS and the idea of RPS has always made me uncomfortable. In the wake of Heath's death that feeling of discomfort about seeing RPS stories pop up has only increased.

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2008, 03:45:35 pm »
This is a good subject to discuss. I myself have read an awful lot of RPS, but, I,m in full agreement with Louise. I think to write it, let alone read it now, would be extreemly disrepectful. So I won,t be reading any more RPS and I would hope other fan fic authors, who I know have written it, would follow suit.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2008, 04:00:51 pm »
As a matter of perspective, I found the following site set up for the Fanfic Symposium addressing the legal implications of writing Real Person Slash:

http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp78.html

The warnings are dire.  The possible charges that could be leveled against a publisher (any internet distribution) of real person slash include defamation of character, slander, libel, and invasion of privacy.  And this legal source warns that penalties could be severe:

All of these words I'm defining and explaining describe activity that a judge and jury may well consider as illegal. How illegal? You could go to prison for it, or pay million-dollar fines. If you don't believe me, go to any legal database or law library -- or any newspaper archive or online news site -- and look up judgments and fines and damages in court cases concerned with libel, slander, invasion of privacy or defamation of character.

By contrast, the implications of writing a fanfiction about Ennis and Jack is a question that lies in the unproven grey area of copyright law concerning the Fair Use doctrine.  There is no case law at present that would guide fan fiction writers in whether one or another piece of fan fiction constitutes "fair use", however such considerations are not black and white.  However, with RPS, there is a very hard line, and that line constitutes a misdemeanor or possibly felony conviction for the writer who distributes their RPS.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2008, 04:17:12 pm »
I'm probably out of line putting my two cents in, because even when Heath was alive I felt that RPS crossed a line, but I think it's a good idea of you, Louise, to bring this up for discussion, and I completely agree with the following:

I have very strong feelings that writing any new RPS stories is disrespectful to the dead.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline mariez

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2008, 04:37:58 pm »
Thank you, Louise, for your respectful post.  I concur wholeheartedly. 

I'm probably out of line putting my two cents in, because even when Heath was alive I felt that RPS crossed a line...

I don't think you're out of line at all, Jeff.  I've never read RPS before, either, for that very reason.  And Heath's death only increases my feelings. 

Marie
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2008, 04:42:28 pm »
no Jeff, not at all out of line.  I myself felt very conflicted about writing the RPS drabbles that I did, and only proceeded because I felt I wanted to consider the aspect of method acting in the development of Heath's portrayal of Ennis.  While there were intimate situations, I could not write a scene of Heath having sex with Jake, because I don't believe that it could or would happen.  At some point, I had to break it off and tell the people who were asking "when are they going to get it on?" that I was not able to write something that I knew was untrue.  Everything else I wrote, though fictional, could possibly have occurred, and that is how I justified the story to myself.  In other words, if I were sued by Jake G., my possible defense could be even though the conversations they had were clearly not real, writing about him kissing Heath as rehearsal did actually happen, and therefore could not have damaged anyone's reputation.  That fact was published.  I might have gotten away with a misdemeanor!

But at this point, the idea of fictional Heaths having fictional sex with fictionalized Jakes, seems to me to be outrageous, not to mention pointless.  And it occurs to me that making such "fictional speculations" is no different, substantively, from John Gibson claiming Heath was "a weirdo" and a "substance abuser", which is equally fictional, and the effect is not lessened by the good will or positive motivation behind it.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


mvansand76

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2008, 04:53:51 pm »
I don't think you're out of line at all, Jeff.  I've never read RPS before, either, for that very reason.  And Heath's death only increases my feelings. 

I agree with Marie that you're not out of line, Jeff. Because as you can read in my first reply on this thread, I am in the same position as you are, I have never read or written RPS either and have had the same opinion about it ever since I found out about the existence of it.

However, I think we should respect fanfic readers/writers who have always read or written RPS and who have now decided to stop reading/writing because they feel it isn't respectful to Heath.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2008, 04:56:56 pm »
I agree with that wholeheartedly, Snavel.  I know that without a lot of cajoling from readers who were RPS fans themselves and who enjoyed my fanfic, I would never have ventured into writing "Falling in Lust", and I think there is a very strong peer pressure factor.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


mvansand76

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2008, 05:09:44 pm »
I agree with that wholeheartedly, Snavel.  I know that without a lot of cajoling from readers who were RPS fans themselves and who enjoyed my fanfic, I would never have ventured into writing "Falling in Lust", and I think there is a very strong peer pressure factor.

And I think that peer pressure factor is still very strong. I saw on bbslash that people are begging writers to continue their RPS stories. I never knew it was so popular.

Offline mariez

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 05:14:53 pm »
However, I think we should respect fanfic readers/writers who have always read or written RPS and who have now decided to stop reading/writing because they feel it isn't respectful to Heath.

Very nicely said, Mel.

I agree with that wholeheartedly, Snavel.  I know that without a lot of cajoling from readers who were RPS fans themselves and who enjoyed my fanfic, I would never have ventured into writing "Falling in Lust", and I think there is a very strong peer pressure factor.

Good point about the peer pressure, Louise.  I hadn't realized the popularity of RPS.

Marie

The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 05:17:14 pm »
It is popular enough that, even though many RPS authors have declared a moratorium on their stories, and several of us have deleted ours (I know of two other authors who have removed their work since Heath's death) that dissenters claiming an ethical problem with writing and distributing RPS in the fandom were warned against speaking further about it on the DC forum because the comments were construed as condemnatory.  However, there is a very real legal problem, and I myself, though still very upset about Heath's death, cannot imagine reading or writing a fantasy about his love life while his family weeps over his body.  There is something ghoulish about it.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 05:23:53 pm »
It is popular enough that, even though many RPS authors have declared a moratorium on their stories, and several of us have deleted ours (I know of two other authors who have removed their work since Heath's death) that dissenters claiming an ethical problem with writing and distributing RPS in the fandom were warned against speaking further about it on the DC forum because the comments were construed as condemnatory.  However, there is a very real legal problem, and I myself, though still very upset about Heath's death, cannot imagine reading or writing a fantasy about his love life while his family weeps over his body.  There is something ghoulish about it.

Indeed. If nothing else, I think it would be in poor taste.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

mvansand76

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 05:45:58 pm »
However, there is a very real legal problem, and I myself, though still very upset about Heath's death, cannot imagine reading or writing a fantasy about his love life while his family weeps over his body.  There is something ghoulish about it.

*nods*
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 05:17:58 am by Snavel del Snork Snater Snuit »

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 06:51:58 pm »
Here is a discussion in Wranglers of "incorporating Heath's death into a Real person slash story"

http://community.livejournal.com/wranglers/1655553.html?view=14370561#t14370561

From the appended comments, more authors have stated that they have removed or will no longer be writing any RPS stories in this fandom.

“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2008, 08:11:20 pm »
Tell you what, between my last post/leaving the office and now, a thought occurred to me, and I hope this doesn't sound naive. Some of the people who want the RPS stories to continue: I wonder if that's part of their way of wanting to "hold on" to Heath?  ???
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2008, 09:02:41 pm »
that doesn't take any guesswork, Jeff, they say that in so many words.  Which really does show that the posture of 'this isn't really about Heath' isn't true.  They do not know Heath personally, and use the stories to feel close to him, even though they are only fantasies.  The difficulty is that they are fantasies that are essentially an intrusion and a lie about a real person which those who know and love him, would find highly distasteful at the least.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2008, 10:23:06 pm »
that doesn't take any guesswork, Jeff, they say that in so many words.  Which really does show that the posture of 'this isn't really about Heath' isn't true.  They do not know Heath personally, and use the stories to feel close to him, even though they are only fantasies.  The difficulty is that they are fantasies that are essentially an intrusion and a lie about a real person which those who know and love him, would find highly distasteful at the least.

Sure enough. That's essentially why I never read RPS. Interesting, though, that some of these people are self-aware enough and honsest enough to say openly that they want these stories to continue as a way of "holding on to Heath," but clearly you're right in saying this disproves the fiction that these stories aren't really about Heath.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 02:31:59 pm »
A perspective from an RPS writer from Cologne who flew to New York to say goodbye to Heath:

"One thing I found out on this trip: I´ll never read or write RPS again, although I´ve loved it more than anything else here. There´ll be only au!, au!au etc for me in the future because I can´t square with my conscience to write about Heath Ledger. I was very into RPS and it gave me strenght and happiness. But when I was standing there in front of his house and took a look over all the flowers, candles and letters I realized that it was wrong to write these stories. It´s Ennis who has touched me so deeply and I know that Heath will live through him in this fandom and that we´ll never forget him."


http://community.livejournal.com/brokebackslash/1885039.html?view=17238895#t17238895
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline trekfan

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2008, 06:19:09 pm »
I think this is a difficult subject to come up with a conclusion on.   I can respect those who wrote RPS and have decided not to continue and to delete what they had.   And I know out of respect for his family writing something now would be disrespecful.

I know some writers who were using Heath and Jake's names but their stories had nothing to do with their RL and those stories I have enjoyed.   

I have only written one RPS.  I am not going to delete it.  Whether I would write another one I have no idea.   

I respect those who have decided not to continue.

all I know is I miss Heath and I hope he is at peace.  And I hope his family has the strength to go on.

mvansand76

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2008, 06:22:51 pm »
I think this is a difficult subject to come up with a conclusion on.   I can respect those who wrote RPS and have decided not to continue and to delete what they had.   And I know out of respect for his family writing something now would be disrespecful.

I know some writers who were using Heath and Jake's names but their stories had nothing to do with their RL and those stories I have enjoyed.   

I have only written one RPS.  I am not going to delete it.  Whether I would write another one I have no idea.   

I respect those who have decided not to continue.

all I know is I miss Heath and I hope he is at peace.  And I hope his family has the strength to go on.


Hey- thanks for letting us know your views on this...

Yes, that's all that counts right now, isn't it? I do feel he's at peace now that he's finally back in Perth.

 :'(

Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 12:33:21 am »
A post from the Mod of BBSlash concerning new posting rules as well as mentioning RPS:

http://community.livejournal.com/brokebackslash/1886342.html
Proud Supporter, Writer, and Reader of RPS

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2008, 02:28:47 am »
Thanks for posting that, blacktears.  Clearly, the forum for discussing the impact of Heath's death on the fanfiction and RPS specifically, is not Brokebackslash. I had an RPS posted there and made an announcement, and it was never my intention to open discussion there, which is why I linked back to this forum for the discussion.

However, since Wranglers IS for discussion, it is possible for people to bring up discussion topics if they wish over there.  In fact, there is one recent post someone made about RPS that has had several replies.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2008, 03:07:55 pm »
Hi Louise and everyone else! Thanks for providing a place where we can feel free to discuss the pros and cons of RPS especially in light of Heath Ledger's death.  I wonder why so many other communities have put a taboo on this discussion? I personally would not want to write or read any Heath RPS. Why can't their be a debate on the propriety of it? Anyway, thanks for this forum. And trekfan thanks for those wonderful pictures you have been posting of Heath!

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2008, 03:28:49 pm »
I can only share my opinion and my knowledge about it.  Early in 2006 the RPS stories about Heath and Jake began to appear here and there on fan forums.  I know from hearsay (I did not see the messages myself, however) that enthusiastic readers shared links and quotes in the public areas of the Dave Cullen site, and that there was an outcry against discussion of real people in fictional - sexual - situations.  As a result, there was a policy instituted at that forum to use pseudonyms to indicate Heath and Jake in discussions of it there, and to encourage writers to continue writing  - but not to advertise their stories, or name names - outside of the Slash Discussion thread.  Many members objected strenuously to RPS on that forum.

RPS stories are not allowed at all on Ennisjack.com since its beginning, as far as I know.  I wasn't aware of the policy and my drabble link were removed when I posted them and received a polite note explaining the policy.

I believe that since many people find RPS very offensive morally, and since it is considered by legal advisors as invasion of privacy, defamation of character, and libel, if the stars chose to confront a writer in a legal forum, those who write and read it feel very sensitive about being criticized.  However, there are real ethical questions about whether fans really do have a "creative right" to use the names and biographies of people we revere and respect, and write detailed sex fantasies about them.  RPS, peculiarly, seems to focus far more on sex than on a story plot, or on other aspects of the actors lives.  Some of them bring in other actors and family members, such as Maggie Gyllenhaal, her husband Peter, Jake's friend and fellow actor Austin Nichols, and other A-list stars  like Ewan McGregor, Christian Bale, etc.  I saw one story (and did not finish it) involving group sex between several of these male actors, and the story consisted of little more than this.

My opinion is that most RPS stories are masturbatory fantasies that are almost purely devoted to sex.  I have not read many of them, but what I did read gave that impression.  Some of them have extensive journalistic background about Jake and Heath and incorporate Michelle and the misfortune of her father's tax arrest and tense confrontations that are very detailed - and very personal.

The more I looked and read, the more uneasy I felt.  None of this could be considered "a tribute" but rather something a lot more daring than a gossip column.  Some authors claim that neither they nor their readers have any illusions that these are the "real Heath and Jake" but the biographies, and the images accompanying them - are certainly of them.  The details other than the fantasy sex, are details of their real lives.  If they aren't the real Heath and Jake that are being imaged by the writers, why use their names and their biographies as part of the story?  I find that disingenuous.

I did my outing in RPS in the form of drabbles that took place within the context of filming BBM and Heath beginning his relationship with Michelle.  As I got closer to trying to portray the mental state of the actor, I felt more and more uncomfortable, even if what much of what I was writing could very well have happened.  I was treading on forbidden ground.  I did not post the drabbles on my own livejournal, and I had a few strong dissenting opinions from readers about why I had "stooped so low" and encouraged them to read what I had written so they could find out why.

However, I never felt as though I had any legal or moral "right" to speculate in that way, nor do I believe others feel as comfortable or righteous as they may state they are, but I can't say anything definitive on behalf of anyone else.  I do feel as though I need to set an example, having waded into it, that my conscience does not permit me to put out this story to anyone - even privately - now that Heath has died. I can find no good reason to do so, and cannot rationalize it ethically.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 05:52:02 pm by louise van hine »
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2008, 04:30:14 pm »
I believe that since many people find RPS very offensive morally, and since it is considered by legal advisors as invasion of privacy, defamation of character, and libel, if the stars chose to confront a writer in a legal forum, those who write and read it feel very sensitive about being criticized.

OK, I know I'm being judgmental, but for the legal reasons detailed--in my opinion, well they should feel sensitive.

Quote
However, there are real ethical questions about whether fans really do have a "creative right" to use the names and biographies of people we revere and respect, and write detailed sex fantasies about them.  RPS, peculiarly, seems to focus far more on sex than on a story plot, or on other aspects of the actors lives.  Some of them bring in other actors and family members, such as Maggie Gyllenhaal, her husband Peter, Jake's friend and fellow actor Austin Phillips, and other A-list stars  like Ewan McGregor, Christian Bale, etc.  I saw one story (and did not finish it) involving group sex between several of these male actors, and the story consisted of little more than this.

My opinion is that most RPS stories are masturbatory fantasies that are almost purely devoted to sex.

Thanks, Louise. That's more or less what I suspected when I first became aware of RPS.

But then it was explained to me early on that that's what the "S," the "Slash," meant: The subjects having sex.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2008, 05:19:39 pm »
Louise,

Do you know if there is any standard on when a person can move into the realm of fiction? I have read plenty of historical fiction novels with all sorts of real person characters--kings, queens, presidents, senators--most recently, an architect in the form of Frank Lloyd Wright in "Loving Frank." The story takes place between 1904-1914 and is based on real events in Wright's life. What's made up are conversations (which had no way of being recorded, of course) and imagined interactions. Historical fiction is a well established and popular genre of writing. At what point does it make the transition from being "real people stories" to "historical fiction"? When the main characters are dead? Something else?

Leslie
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2008, 05:24:23 pm »
Louise,

Do you know if there is any standard on when a person can move into the realm of fiction? I have read plenty of historical fiction novels with all sorts of real person characters--kings, queens, presidents, senators--most recently, an architect in the form of Frank Lloyd Wright in "Loving Frank." The story takes place between 1904-1914 and is based on real events in Wright's life. What's made up are conversations (which had no way of being recorded, of course) and imagined interactions. Historical fiction is a well established and popular genre of writing. At what point does it make the transition from being "real people stories" to "historical fiction"? When the main characters are dead? Something else?

Leslie

Tell you what, I was kind of wondering about that, too. I've even read a murder mystery once that featured Tallulah Bankhead as an amateur sleuth! It was pretty good, too.  ;D I think she was dead by the time the story was published, though.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2008, 05:35:58 pm »
Louise,

Do you know if there is any standard on when a person can move into the realm of fiction? I have read plenty of historical fiction novels with all sorts of real person characters--kings, queens, presidents, senators--most recently, an architect in the form of Frank Lloyd Wright in "Loving Frank." The story takes place between 1904-1914 and is based on real events in Wright's life. What's made up are conversations (which had no way of being recorded, of course) and imagined interactions. Historical fiction is a well established and popular genre of writing. At what point does it make the transition from being "real people stories" to "historical fiction"? When the main characters are dead? Something else?

Leslie

very good question.  I think that the three legal risks I mentioned - invasion of privacy, defamation of character and libel, no longer apply when a person is deceased, and a fiction is based upon research into their life in the past.  But in a case such as this, where the death just happened, writing about a person as though they had not died, and postulating relationships with people still living, would be subject to those risks.

But if the work is billed as "fiction" and the person has died in the past and there are no heirs to raise a ruckus, then I do not believe there is much legal recourse.  There may be slander and libel provisions that heirs can use to some limited degree, but writing about people who are long dead, I think that no longer applies.  But it is something to consider.
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2008, 05:42:07 pm »
Here is a link I found where the family of Rosa Parks sued Outkast for their song "Rosa Parks."  I am not sure how much insight it gives but clearly the family was able to gain relief from the courts for the misrepresentation of Rosa Parks' place in history by the band's song.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stevecarper/bull160.htm
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2008, 05:49:12 pm »
I think what was being litigated in the Parks case (above) must have been "Right to publicity" which does pass on to heirs at death.

According to another, more informative article
Fact into Fiction: Using Real Life and Real People in Creative Works
by Linda Heacox

http://www.iwpa.org/reallife0506.html

"Cook points out that only living people can sue for defamation and invasion of privacy. Rights to publicity are another matter.

This is the right of a person to control his name and likeness for commercial purposes. In other words, only the celebrity can profit from his name unless he grants another that right. This right is considered property and passes to heirs when the famous person dies. "

Here is a salient fact about what legal measures determine whether invasion of privacy has occurred:

"Invasion of privacy could also cause an individual to sue a writer who has disclosed something embarrassing that is not of legitimate public concern, Cook said. That is the legal standard, she said-whether or not the disclosure could be seen by a court as being of public interest. "

I am quite certain that private sex habits would not be seen by any court as "legitimate public concerns."

“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2008, 06:00:30 pm »
Historical fiction using real people:

On the other hand, says this  article, the field is wide open in historical fiction, as long as the person has no heirs to claim "right to publicity."

http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/fiction/2008/01/historical-fict.html
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2008, 05:59:14 am »



I believe that, if you wonder if writing or reading RPS is wrong or not, all you have to do is imagine that Heath is reading along with you over your shoulder.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2008, 07:46:20 am »


I believe that, if you wonder if writing or reading RPS is wrong or not, all you have to do is imagine that Heath is reading along with you over your shoulder.

I agree, Mel, and I didn't ask my question about historical fiction as a way to say I think it is okay to write about Heath, now that's he dead. I don't. I just think it is an interesting question of at what point, if ever, would a well-known person be okay to use as a character in a fictional story? The story I read about Frank Lloyd Wright was very well done, interesting (I learned alot about him I didn't know) and even though it was driven by scandal (he and his mistress left their respective families and ran away together) it was handled in a respectful way. It didn't sully his memory.

I also think that Louise makes a very good point about many of the RPS stories being nothing but masturbatory fantasies. From the little bit I have read (and it is very little) I would agree. Many of the stories are truly tasteless.

Back to my question of time. I think it is a question of how "seared" on our memories the real life person was/is and how long that lasts. For example, I think that a writer would get into trouble with a story about Marilyn Monroe or Elvis Presley. They are just too "real" to people to become characters. (I also think Elvis would bring up the publicity issue that Louise mentioned, since it is very clear his heirs control his name and image and he is a source of ongoing revenue). But what about James Dean? Or going back even further, Rudolph Valentino? They were big stars whose premature deaths shook people up. Could people write about them, now, in 2008?

Someone mentioned (on another board) that RPS is written about the Beatles and I just said "ew." For me, growing up with them at the time I did, they will always be "the Beatles" and any attempt to immortalize them in fiction is just wrong. I will remember them through their music. And I will remember Heath through the legacy he has left us in films and photos.
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mvansand76

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2008, 07:56:41 am »
I agree, Mel, and I didn't ask my question about historical fiction as a way to say I think it is okay to write about Heath, now that's he dead. I don't.

Oh no, it wasn't in response to what you were discussing, it was just something that popped up in my mind.  :-*

Offline el_wing

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2008, 11:01:11 am »
I have a few things to say, then I'll go away.

First, on libel. Let's get real. I'm a journalist and I teach journalism. So here goes.

RPS slides along a path that's never been tested as far as libel is concerned. In order for rps or any printed story to be considered libel, it must meet four criteria and all four criteria must be met.

You must also understand that rps is not written as truth. It is fan "fiction" and not truth. This is not a tabloid touting stories as fact.

#1 it must be published. Locked or unlocked, anything on the internet is considered publishing.
#2 person has to be identified. In most cases, actors are identified.
#3 it must show harm. Yes, rps does have actors in sexual situations that aren't real but-- This is where it's sticky-- fanfic is a form of publicity for the entertainer. It's hard to show that this in anyway hurts the actors reputation or career especially since the work is written as "fiction" to begin with.
#4 Fault. This is the whole malice clause. The party has to prove intentional harm or a blatant disregard for harm to that individual. The whole issue of public figure vs private individual comes to play here. Public figures have a much greater burden of proof in this regard. In fan fiction rps, most writers love who they're writing about. They do not intend harm.

Also, Kit Mason, the person writing the article you are using as an example of here: http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp78.html

She doesn't live in the United States. She's not a lawyer. She doesn't teach law. She's an awesome sci fi writer (she rocks). 



That's subject one.

Subject two.
People who write straight fan fiction have been taken to court by writers, and threatened with law suits by film and tv producers and book author for "borrowing" characters, plot and setting of their work-- that is also a "moral" argument. Most writers don't care or see it as a compliment to their work, but if we are going to address a real legal issue, that is one that would get fan fic writers into court, not whether or not they write rps.

Subject three

I hope Heath is reading over my shoulder, since what I'm writing is very, good and very, tasteful. ;)
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2008, 11:09:12 am »
el-wing, that link you posted doesn't work. It opens a reply window. Can you tell me what you are trying to point us to?

Thanks,

L
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Offline el_wing

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2008, 11:21:31 am »
el-wing, that link you posted doesn't work. It opens a reply window. Can you tell me what you are trying to point us to?

Thanks,

L

Sorry, all better. I fixed it.  ;)
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2008, 11:25:51 am »
I agree, Mel, and I didn't ask my question about historical fiction as a way to say I think it is okay to write about Heath, now that's he dead. I don't. I just think it is an interesting question of at what point, if ever, would a well-known person be okay to use as a character in a fictional story?

The general rule is: after there's no longer anyone alive who remembers the person or who's old enough to have met them, even as a child meeting someone elderly. I'm not aware of any legal standard that exists, but that's the rough-cut rule about appropriateness.

But that's only general, depending on how the person was viewed in their lifetime. During Jesse James' lifetime, there were RPS stories about himin dozens of magazines and dime novels, though they didn't involve sexual situations.  For a person who was respected as a great artist or great statesman, it's probably longer.

When I first heard about the concept of RPS, frankly my first reaction was that it was distasteful and silly.  Started reading one -- can't even remember which it was now -- but oddly, I couldn't even get interested in it and concluded that my limited time to read BBM fanfic was better spent reading about Ennis, Jack et al.

Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2008, 12:18:13 pm »
Thanks for the general rules about historical fiction Marge! I think the big difference is as you said no one connected to the figure even remotely is still alive. We had slash stories about Heath posted even before he was buried.  It is not only a question about libel or the legality of the situation but the propiety and ethics of it.  Heath Ledger was a very private man so I do not believe for one minute he would be comfortable with these types of stories about him and Jake. I imagine he would wonder why so much creative effort would be wasted on making up tales about him instead of the writers finding their own stories or characters.  I think the best tributes to Heath have been testimonials on what he meant to people and poems  I have seen written about how much he meant to the author. I don't see RPS in that same light.  How many of us after the Pope died wanted to go write a story about him loving and having sex with some other public figure? is that really a natural reaction to grief? Anyone written slash about their own lost loved ones? I think not. And if they have well they really do have issues! :laugh:
 

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2008, 12:22:09 pm »
Thanks for the general rules about historical fiction Marge! I think the big difference is as you said no one connected to the figure even remotely is still alive. We had slash stories about Heath posted even before he was buried.  It is not only a question about libel or the legality of the situation but the propiety and ethics of it.  Heath Ledger was a very private man so I do not believe for one minute he would be comfortable with these types of stories about him and Jake. I imagine he would wonder why so much creative effort would be wasted on making up tales about him instead of the writers finding their own stories or characters.  I think the best tributes to Heath have been testimonials on what he meant to people and poems  I have seen written about how much he meant to the author. I don't see RPS in that same light.  How many of us after the Pope died wanted to go write a story about him loving and having sex with some other public figure? is that really a natural reaction to grief? Anyone written slash about their own lost loved ones? I think not. And if they have well they really do have issues! :laugh:
 

Oh, God, just the thought of it...LOL

Thanks for a chuckle, ENEN.

L
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2008, 12:27:31 pm »
Now I"m never going to see a picture of Ratzinger without thinking of him fooling around with Nick Sarkozy in a back room at a summit or something.

And no, my natural instinct at hearing of Heath's death was not to imagine him having sex with another actor, that's for sure...!
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2008, 03:13:21 pm »
The argument by supporters of RPS that the the real people in RPS are only characters in a fantasy really bothered. It seems as if they were treating Heath and Jake as objects instead of people and I came across this interesting definition that I want to post here:

Sexual objectification is objectification of a person. That is, seeing them as a sexual object, and emphasizing their sexual attributes and physical attractiveness, while de-emphasizing their existence as a living person with emotions and feelings of their own[/b]

That's what is going on with RPS. IMO.

Offline el_wing

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2008, 04:00:08 pm »
The argument by supporters of RPS that the the real people in RPS are only characters in a fantasy really bothered. It seems as if they were treating Heath and Jake as objects instead of people and I came across this interesting definition that I want to post here:

Sexual objectification is objectification of a person. That is, seeing them as a sexual object, and emphasizing their sexual attributes and physical attractiveness, while de-emphasizing their existence as a living person with emotions and feelings of their own[/b]

That's what is going on with RPS. IMO.

Interesting that you're using the Wikipedia definition. The Barbie doll has more to do with this modern feminist theory that addresses how men negate women to sex objects and whittle down self worth. We all "objectify" actors and musicians through hero worship. To sexually objectify in rps objectifies people. So does slash fic.

Do you read Ennis and Jack fic? Because that's objectifying gay men.

Or maybe watched the Super Bowl and seen those cheerleaders??? Much worse, IMO.
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2008, 04:11:54 pm »
to be fair to you as a writer, el_wing, I did read a chapter of your latest story and I think there is a contrast between what you are writing and the standard RPS fare - because there seems to be an actual story unfolding.  However, this is not the main feature of many RPS tales - the main feature is sexual encounters and the emotional drama that surrounds it.  I have always disliked reading things where the purpose of the story is sex, otherwise known as "Porn without plot", and I think this is far more prevalent in RPS stories than in fan fiction ones.  In fact, there are a number of fan fics that are not at all explicit, and whatever sex occurred happened "off screen" as it were.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline el_wing

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2008, 05:06:10 pm »
I agree on that point-- that there is a lot of PWP in rps but it's prevalent in all fandoms, rps and not. There are many rps writers who are excellent writers. What I have a problem with is tearing each other down as writers-- especially women writers. Society does that enough, why do we need to do this to each other? I'd rather judge fic individually on merit than lump them together and make sweeping generalities. Please don't lump us all together.

Fan fic is largely dominated by women writers. I start to feel disillusioned when we start to split. We grow up reading past writers, men who are held up as "models" of what is "good" writing like Steinbeck and Hemmingway who have misogynist tendencies in their work and do objectify women.

I don't know, this whole thread reads more like an rps bash session with a few intelligent arguments in between that an open discussion.
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Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2008, 05:14:03 pm »
 the stories about Jack and Ennis that  I read are a continuation of a love affair between two men . Jack and Ennis are fictional characters and not real so you can't really put them in the class of Heath and Jake.  You can't offend a fictional character but you can offend and hurt real people.The cheerleaders at the SuperBowl are pretty bad but there is one big difference between them and slash fiction. Those cheerleaders are making a choice about their own lives and image. Heath and Jake have made no such choice in regards to the slash stories about them. I think the Barbie doll theory applies to RPS because the actors are being written as dolls to satisfy a fantasy and for sexual gratification. And just because objectification is prevalent elsewhere does not mean it is OK. It just means that it is prevalent.

Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2008, 05:16:44 pm »
Quote
don't know, this whole thread reads more like an rps bash session with a few intelligent arguments in between that an open discussion

It's not a bash session. It's just a place where we can exchange our views openly. Not everyone is thrilled with RPS and should be able to say so.

Offline el_wing

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2008, 05:19:43 pm »
I don't know about other people, but I don't think I'd be writing fan fiction about Ennis and Jack if it weren't for Heath and Jake's portrayal of them. We are essentially fantasizing about the actors, not Jack and Ennis. If you'd only read Annie's story in the New Yorker, would we be having this discussion?
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It is life that people lack.
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2008, 05:21:41 pm »

I don't know, this whole thread reads more like an rps bash session with a few intelligent arguments in between that an open discussion.

While it seems there are more people here who have objections to RPS, I don't think that this is a bash session where your opinion is not welcomed, el_wing. On another forum where I have participated, if I presented a minority view, I immediately got PMs telling me to stop "stirring the pot" and my only purpose in being on the the discussion was to be a troublemaker (neither of which were true). Has this happened to you, el_wing? Because if so, I'd like to know about  it as one of the Fanfic moderators.

After two years in this fandom, it is clear to me that people have very strong opinions about a variety of topics--from fanfiction in general, to moving on Ennis stories, to RPS. When I have been in the group where a minority opinion is being expressed, it can feel like I am getting bashed--that's true. But reading this thread, I do think the conversation has been respectful and everyone's voice has been welcomed. If you feel differently, please PM me so we can discuss. My goal--and I know Louise agrees with me--is to be able to have this issues out in the open so people can be able to discuss them--not hidden behind secret PM campaigns.

Thanks.

Leslie
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Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2008, 05:24:21 pm »
I don't know about other people, but I don't think I'd be writing fan fiction about Ennis and Jack if it weren't for Heath and Jake's portrayal of them. We are essentially fantasizing about the actors, not Jack and Ennis. If you'd only read Annie's story in the New Yorker, would we be having this discussion?

I guess that's where we differ.  I read and fell in love with Jack and Ennisthrough the story first. And it is the idea of Jack and Ennis I love. I don't know Heath and Jake. But  I appreciate their perfomance in the film.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2008, 05:30:43 pm »
I don't know about other people, but I don't think I'd be writing fan fiction about Ennis and Jack if it weren't for Heath and Jake's portrayal of them. We are essentially fantasizing about the actors, not Jack and Ennis. If you'd only read Annie's story in the New Yorker, would we be having this discussion?

Bingo!  ;D

I don't think I'd have written a word if Ennis and Jack had been played by, say, Luke Wilson and Vince Vaughan.  ;D

« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 10:32:45 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2008, 05:37:34 pm »
To me the root of the RPS issue lies in our beliefs about whether a) we have the right to write about real people as characters in our stories and b) whether they or their families would be offended or object or be upset about them.

With regard to a), it is clear that the law leans strongly against us, the tests El Wing mentions notwithstanding.  If someone writes a story that claims something that did not happen, the law states that this is a form of defamation.  The fact that the prima facie case for defamation is so easy to make, and that it can cause harm whether we wish that harm or not (claiming a homosexual relationship between two known people when one of them is happily married to someone else can cause mental distress, for example).  Whether the harm could be proven, whether anyone makes these claims in court or goes to the bother, does not address the prima facie case of defamation.  Why would we want to write something that nominally fits the description of invasion of privacy, or of defamation of character?

b) I was told in private by someone who is friends with an actor about whom RPS stories were written.  That person saw and read some of the RPS and, being a friend of the actor, was mortified and outraged, and told the actor, who was upset, not only about the fact that the stories were being published on the Internet, but that it was causing pain and anguish to his friends.

To me these are the core issues around RPS.  It is not a question of author's rights.  Clearly, if people have been writing about N'Sync all of these years and no one has been sued, then the risk of lawsuit may be small.  But that, to me, isn't the point.  To me the point is one of respect for the individual.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2008, 05:39:41 pm »
Quote
But that, to me, isn't the point.  To me the point is one of respect for the individual.

exactly!!

Offline el_wing

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2008, 06:07:53 pm »
A couple of things. What bothers me is moral judgment on this. I respect your opinion. I have friends in other fandoms who object to rps. What hurts is to have people say or imply that those who do write it are immoral for doing so.

I know Louise, you took a personal stand yourself, and I respect you for it.

And Leslie, I'm sorry I wasn't clear why I'm posting here. No one has harassed me here on this site. But being a bbm board, I find the division in the fandom over this question counterproductive. I hate to see negative comments that make moral judgments of others over what they are writing and tear down the community of writers.

I understand, Louise feels it a matter of respect for the individual-- Heath, Jake, Ringo, George, Paul and John. Or N'Sync.  To many writers this is their way to immortalize them. I feel that is respect too.   We should also respect each other and not belittle their work.

Now all we need is a big group hug.
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2008, 06:18:59 pm »
I think the worst that could be implied about writers of RPS who are publishing it on the internet is not that they are immoral, but that perhaps they are thoughtless, and have not truly considered the implications of their story upon the possible audience.

For example, imagine a conversation which an RPS author would have with Heath if they met him and he asked this question of them.  It happens - there are people on this forum who have met Heath and one person at least, has worked with him in films.  If Heath were to have told his fans "I really do not like people writing stories about me having it off with Jake and I wish they would stop" would you stop writing the story?  Or would you feel you have a "right" to do it, even though the person you are worshipping is upset by it?

“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2008, 06:24:47 pm »
I think the worst that could be implied about writers of RPS who are publishing it on the internet is not that they are immoral, but that perhaps they are thoughtless, and have not truly considered the implications of their story upon the possible audience.

For example, imagine a conversation which an RPS author would have with Heath if they met him and he asked this question of them.  It happens - there are people on this forum who have met Heath and one person at least, has worked with him in films.  If Heath were to have told his fans "I really do not like people writing stories about me having it off with Jake and I wish they would stop" would you stop writing the story?  Or would you feel you have a "right" to do it, even though the person you are worshipping is upset by it?



That's an interesting question, which I can't answer from this fandom-- but I can from LotR fandom since I know rps writers who have met Elijah Wood and Sean Astin and they take no offense to the writing-- in fact, they liked some of it. They even slow danced together. One two three. Sean wrote about it in his book about making the movie. If an actor told me, hey, this upsets me, I'd quit. But some actors don't feel threated by women's fantasies about them.
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2008, 06:33:31 pm »
That's an interesting question, which I can't answer from this fandom-- but I can from LotR fandom since I know rps writers who have met Elijah Wood and Sean Astin and they take no offense to the writing-- in fact, they liked some of it. They even slow danced together. One two three. Sean wrote about it in his book about making the movie. If an actor told me, hey, this upsets me, I'd quit. But some actors don't feel threated by women's fantasies about them.

In this instance, the approval of the actors involve would constitute permission.  In a case of permission or approval then my personal objection would be withdrawn.  However, permission cannot be presumed, and I can only apply the yardstick of my own opinion, which is, if someone wrote a fictional story about me in an intimate relationship with someone and made up the facts - I would sue them.  In the case of non celebrities, invasion of privacy and defamation of character are pretty much a slam-dunk.  With celebrities it is much harder to do based upon the "public interest" angle.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2008, 06:45:57 pm »
In this instance, the approval of the actors involve would constitute permission.  In a case of permission or approval then my personal objection would be withdrawn.  However, permission cannot be presumed, and I can only apply the yardstick of my own opinion, which is, if someone wrote a fictional story about me in an intimate relationship with someone and made up the facts - I would sue them.  In the case of non celebrities, invasion of privacy and defamation of character are pretty much a slam-dunk.  With celebrities it is much harder to do based upon the "public interest" angle.

I wouldn't sue. But that's me. 
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2008, 07:09:08 pm »
If someone is writing a story about real people, and feels perfectly fine about the idea of having that person write a story about themselves (understanding that whoever it is may not write something flattering, true, or helpful, and in fact has no control over what is written at all, and may indeed hurt their feelings or the feelings of their friends) then I would say that their conscience should be clear about writing RPS.  But that would not be me.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2008, 09:36:07 pm »


I believe that, if you wonder if writing or reading RPS is wrong or not, all you have to do is imagine that Heath is reading along with you over your shoulder.

Hmm that sounds kinda hot  ;)

I write RPS and I would love for any of the people I write about to read it and hey, maybe get a few ideas from it!

It's just unfair to put your requirements on someone else's art. To me it is all about creative freedom and stifling that is a big no no in my book. If you choose not to read it or write it, fine. But let those that wish to write, write. I agree with everything El_wing said, brilliantly worded and factually correct.

Maybe its a generational thing? Younger writers tend to embrace RPS more than writers of a greater, more conservative age. I've seen that pattern a lot in the various fandoms I have been a part of and in the BBM/RPS fandom as well.

And I would be delighted if someone wrote an RPS about me. I would just hope they had me getting laid on the regular! LOL!

RPS was a fantasy before and its a fantasy now. Heath's death doesn't change a thing, for better or worse and hey if it brings a writer joy to write RPS, who are we to deny them comfort and happiness?

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2008, 10:47:25 pm »
It's just unfair to put your requirements on someone else's art. To me it is all about creative freedom and stifling that is a big no no in my book. If you choose not to read it or write it, fine. But let those that wish to write, write. I agree with everything El_wing said, brilliantly worded and factually correct.

Sorry, Friend, but I disagree that making up sex stories about living or recently deceased celebrities is an issue of creative freedom.

Quote
Maybe its a generational thing? Younger writers tend to embrace RPS more than writers of a greater, more conservative age. I've seen that pattern a lot in the various fandoms I have been a part of and in the BBM/RPS fandom as well.

Hmmm.  :-\

Quote
RPS was a fantasy before and its a fantasy now. Heath's death doesn't change a thing, for better or worse and hey if it brings a writer joy to write RPS, who are we to deny them comfort and happiness?

I think someone who derives solace from writing sex fantasy stories about a recently deceased actor should find out why this sort of thing gives him or her comfort and happiness.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2008, 10:55:16 pm »
Sorry, Friend, but I disagree that making up sex stories about living or recently deceased celebrities is an issue of creative freedom.

I think someone who derives solace from writing sex fantasy stories about a recently deceased actor should find out why this sort of thing gives him or her comfort and happiness.

Hmm who said RPS had to be all about sex? I don't have a problem if it is, but not all RPS is sex. I know a lot of RPS that doesn't even have sex in it whatsoever so that argument falls a little flat.

The same thing could be said about fan fiction and maybe that they're even more insane since those people are not even real. I mean, playing devil's advocate here but people say that and I don't agree with that statement either.

My motto has always been more power to those who are creative and get happiness from it.  :)

My motto of writing is also, live and let write.  :)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2008, 11:15:57 pm »
Hmm who said RPS had to be all about sex? I don't have a problem if it is, but not all RPS is sex. I know a lot of RPS that doesn't even have sex in it whatsoever so that argument falls a little flat.

Well, go back to the beginning of this discussion thread. The general import then was that we are talking about sex stories here.

And if it doesn't have sex in it, is it really "slash"?

It's always good to be sure of your terms, so you don't talk past each other. The first explanation I was ever given about "slash" fiction was that it involved sex between two individuals who would not ordinarily be expected to have sex with each other. The example used was Capt. James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock. A more recent example might be a hot little story I read last year involving a sexual encounter between Michael Weatherly's character from N.C.I.S. and David James Eliot's character from JAG.

If it's not about sex, I suppose I would just consider it fanfiction. You can conclude from that statement that I don't consider Brokeback Mountain fanfiction "slash" because Ennis and Jack do have sex with each other.

If you want to write a story, say, about Heath and Jake solving the murder of a grip on the set of Brokeback Mountain, fine and dandy. To me that's just fanfiction. But if it ain't sex, it ain't slash, and my comments aren't about fiction that's not about sex.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2008, 11:18:58 pm »
There are two terms in current common use:  RPF and RPS.  RPF is Real Person Fiction, and RPS is Real Person Slash.  And RPS is a story about a sex relationship, and in this fandom, it involves a sex relationship between Jack and Heath.  So I would argue that in this context, the objections being raised are specifically about postulating a homosexual relationship between two admittedly heterosexual men, Jake and Heath.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2008, 11:28:26 pm »
There are two terms in current common use:  RPF and RPS.  RPF is Real Person Fiction, and RPS is Real Person Slash.  And RPS is a story about a sex relationship, and in this fandom, it involves a sex relationship between Jack and Heath.  So I would argue that in this context, the objections being raised are specifically about postulating a homosexual relationship between two admittedly heterosexual men, Jake and Heath.

Thanks for that, Louise. Indeed, I'm not objecting to RPF. I'm not sure I even have an opinion about RPF. My concerns are about RPS.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2008, 12:10:34 am »
So the issue here is sex and not the fact that its about real people? Oh okay because I thought the 'distasteful' part of RPS was that they people were real, but I now see we are discussing something else entirely.

So sex is perverse? Is it more acceptable if its a man and a woman having sexual relations in RPF?
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2008, 01:09:47 am »
I think Jeff was stating his own opinion, blacktears.

I have stated my own reservations and objections in many posts throughout this thread, and summarized them here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16622.msg326853.html#msg326853

RPF - stories with no sexual content - were never under discussion, because that is not what I wrote, and that is not what RPS in this fandom is about.    However, the reservations I stated are not obviated by there being no sex content in the story - they would be obviated by the subjects giving their PERMISSION for the stories.  Which of course, is unlikely if not impossible.  Certainly impossible in the case of Heath, and aggravated, in my opinion, by the circumstance of his death.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2008, 10:01:25 am »
So the issue here is sex and not the fact that its about real people? Oh okay because I thought the 'distasteful' part of RPS was that they people were real, but I now see we are discussing something else entirely.

So sex is perverse? Is it more acceptable if its a man and a woman having sexual relations in RPF?

Excuse you. Nobody said anything about sex being "perverse." That isn't what this discussion is about.

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2008, 10:12:12 am »
Indeed. If nothing else, I think it would be in poor taste.

Yes it would Jeff. I,ve read RPS before about Jake and Heath but now, in light of Heaths tragic death, I feel that for authors to write RPS about them, whether or not they are having sex, is extreemly disrepectful to Heaths family, hie friends and his memory. It,s not the legalities of it that bothers me because I don,t write. It,s the principal of the matter. It,s WRONG....end of.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2008, 10:18:48 am »
(quoted Louise: "if someone wrote a fictional story about me in an intimate relationship with someone and made up the facts - I would sue them.")  I wouldn't sue. But that's me. 

Actually, whether I'd sue might depend on (1) how long ago it was and (2) who it was....    ;D

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2008, 10:23:00 am »
I don't know about other people, but I don't think I'd be writing fan fiction about Ennis and Jack if it weren't for Heath and Jake's portrayal of them.

I agree with that. The casting for portraying these two characters on film was perfect.

Quote
We are essentially fantasizing about the actors, not Jack and Ennis. If you'd only read Annie's story in the New Yorker, would we be having this discussion?

Can't agree with that one. In both reading and writing fanfiction, I'm thinking of the characters as those actors portrayed them; not the actors themselves. There's a nice but definite distinction. Of course, I can't speak for other readers and/or writers, but suspect that this is what's going on with many people.

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2008, 10:23:30 am »
Hmm that sounds kinda hot  ;)

I write RPS and I would love for any of the people I write about to read it and hey, maybe get a few ideas from it!

It's just unfair to put your requirements on someone else's art. To me it is all about creative freedom and stifling that is a big no no in my book. If you choose not to read it or write it, fine. But let those that wish to write, write. I agree with everything El_wing said, brilliantly worded and factually correct.

Maybe its a generational thing? Younger writers tend to embrace RPS more than writers of a greater, more conservative age. I've seen that pattern a lot in the various fandoms I have been a part of and in the BBM/RPS fandom as well.

And I would be delighted if someone wrote an RPS about me. I would just hope they had me getting laid on the regular! LOL!

RPS was a fantasy before and its a fantasy now. Heath's death doesn't change a thing, for better or worse and hey if it brings a writer joy to write RPS, who are we to deny them comfort and happiness?



Heaths death doesn,t change a thing?? Did I read that right? Errr yes it does actually. The man his dead. How can you possibly even sit there and THINK about writing RPS about him now? Can you not understand that it is totally disrepectful to his memory and his family and friends? I used to read RPS, but I will never read any RPS now involving Jake and Heath. It,s WRONG. Show some respect.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2008, 10:37:41 am »
Heaths death doesn,t change a thing?? Did I read that right? Errr yes it does actually. The man his dead. How can you possibly even sit there and THINK about writing RPS about him now? Can you not understand that it is totally disrepectful to his memory and his family and friends? I used to read RPS, but I will never read any RPS now involving Jake and Heath. It,s WRONG. Show some respect.

Heath's changed us. It changed how you feel about this, which is passionate. I don't have a problem with your belief or your choice to not read or write rps. What I do I have problem with is judgment of others for their choices. You think it's wrong and you believe it's a way to show respect. Please don't imply those who read and write rps don't.
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Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2008, 10:46:57 am »
Heath's changed us. It changed how you feel about this, which is passionate. I don't have a problem with your belief or your choice to not read or write rps. What I do I have problem with is judgment of others for their choices. You think it's wrong and you believe it's a way to show respect. Please don't imply those who read and write rps don't.

Well you tell me then, how on earth writing RPS about someone who has just died, is respectful? I can,t see it myself. Writing RPS about Jake and Heath, now, is WRONG. I USED to read RPS, but I won,t be now and I don,t understand how anyone can even consider writing it.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2008, 11:09:59 am »
Can't agree with that one. In both reading and writing fanfiction, I'm thinking of the characters as those actors portrayed them; not the actors themselves. There's a nice but definite distinction. Of course, I can't speak for other readers and/or writers, but suspect that this is what's going on with many people.

With both my AU!AUs I hardly even see the actors in my mind anymore, the way they look is very vague in my mind. Both my stories are very far removed from the OS, and the further I get from the OS, the less the characters look like Heath and Jake anymore in my mind. In my stories I am not that descriptive about my characters, but rather about what surrounds them.

Quote
I believe that, if you wonder if writing or reading RPS is wrong or not, all you have to do is imagine that Heath is reading along with you over your shoulder.
Hmm that sounds kinda hot  ;)



 ??? ??? ???

Excuse me? That's beyond disturbing, IMHO. You mean you would find Heath - who is dead - looking over your shoulder and reading RPS about himself and his good friend Jake having sex, hot?



Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2008, 11:11:13 am »
Everyone deals with grief in their own way, some want to cry, some want to talk, some want to listen to music, some want to tell jokes ... and some want to write.  So if it helps ease someones pain by writing a story about Heath, then so be it.

Everyone needs to show a little more tolerence..... just my 2 pennies worth.  :)

Susie  :D

Yes Susie they do, no argument with that. But can,t you understand the principal of it? Write about Heath by all means, but NOT RPS. To write about him in such situations now is wrong. Can,t anyone understand that?

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2008, 12:13:36 pm »
I think what many people are struggling with is a belief, which is ingrained in many religions (and among those without religious convictions too) that it is disrespectful to speak ill of, or to exploit the memory of the deceased.  There is a lot of anger and grief being expressed elsewhere in this forum at tabloid news outlets writing salacious tidbits about Heath having coke-fueled sex romps in London and attending a drug party and being hauled off to a rehab by Michelle, which was hotly denied by his publicist yesterday.

There are also fictional stories written about coke-fueled sex romps with multiple partners, cheating on Michelle, etc, etc. in RPS stories which are indistinguishable from the tabloid rampage occurring now, and it is a legitimate concern to those who find a) tabloid news doing it and b) rps stories doing it.  What is the real difference?  Both are fictional, though the tabloids claim it is "true".  But is this enough to make a) disrespectful and b) respectful?  To me - it isn't.  Respect for the dead, to me, involves showing discretion and sensitivity to those who are grieving. I cannot imagine Michelle, or Jake, or Heath's family, finding anything respectful about any RPS stories - I think they would be outraged and feel violated by them.

Unfortunately, the mere existence of such stories doesn't lend itself to a "live and let live" situation because to be a member of this fandom and read fanfiction, one must continually trip over the announcements, the summaries, and the excited responses of the readers.  So it is a more complicated situation than simply "don't read."  No one outside of a forum owner has the power to create an "RPS free zone", so those who write and read it will still have free rein to do as they always have done, however, the tolerance level of those who find it disrespectful has been decreased, and they have now been joined by those who may have found it tolerable prior to Heath's death but can no longer endure reading or writing about it, and cannot understand why it would be anything other than disrespectful to Heath's memory.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2008, 12:15:22 pm »
In both reading and writing fanfiction, I'm thinking of the characters as those actors portrayed them; not the actors themselves. There's a nice but definite distinction. Of course, I can't speak for other readers and/or writers, but suspect that this is what's going on with many people.

I agree with you, Marge. You're speaking for me, here.  :)
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Offline el_wing

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2008, 12:20:11 pm »
Yes Susie they do, no argument with that. But can,t you understand the principal of it? Write about Heath by all means, but NOT RPS. To write about him in such situations now is wrong. Can,t anyone understand that?

I understand the principle of it. I just don't think throwing stones at other people and hurting them by calling them immoral is going help either. Can you understand that, in principle?

I cannot imagine Michelle, or Jake, or Heath's family, finding anything respectful about any RPS stories - I think they would be outraged and feel violated by them.

Therein lies the problem. I don't agree. You're assuming here that you know them and what they feel too. Hey, some of the rps were outrageous. Some have bad writing. But here we go again, lumping it all together.
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2008, 12:23:28 pm »
Just throwing this out there...

How is RPS any diffrent than all those horendous STAR, People, US magaizine articles about so-and-so sleeping with so-and-so.  I can't buy the whoe "RPS is fiction" line, cuz so ain't the crap in those rags...the entire reading public knows this.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2008, 12:36:05 pm »
I understand the principle of it. I just don't think throwing stones at other people and hurting them by calling them immoral is going help either. Can you understand that, in principle?

Therein lies the problem. I don't agree. You're assuming here that you know them and what they feel too. Hey, some of the rps were outrageous. Some have bad writing. But here we go again, lumping it all together.

I don't believe Souxi has thrown any stones or made any personal attacks.  We have a rule here that personal attacks are not allowed.  Simply stating that "RPS is immoral" is not a personal attack, nor do I believe the comments are aimed at you or other individuals specifically.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2008, 12:46:52 pm »
I understand the principle of it. I just don't think throwing stones at other people and hurting them by calling them immoral is going help either. Can you understand that, in principle?

Therein lies the problem. I don't agree. You're assuming here that you know them and what they feel too. Hey, some of the rps were outrageous. Some have bad writing. But here we go again, lumping it all together.

I never called anyone immoral, I merely said that writing RPS fiction about Jake and Heath having sex, now that poor Heath is no longer with us, is disrepectful and wrong, can,t you understand that in principal?

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2008, 01:04:36 pm »
I understand the principle of it. I just don't think throwing stones at other people and hurting them by calling them immoral is going help either. Can you understand that, in principle?

Therein lies the problem. I don't agree. You're assuming here that you know them and what they feel too. Hey, some of the rps were outrageous. Some have bad writing. But here we go again, lumping it all together.

I already made it clear that I could not know but could only base it upon my own feelings if someone wrote that about me.  I don't know Michelle, but I think I can safely assume that she would be upset if Heath had an affair with Jake while they were living together, so a fictional story about it would be equally upsetting.  It is not an unwarranted assumption, but rather quite a reasonable one.  But this begs the question: it does not matter whether or not they are upset - it matters whether they have given permission to be written about.  And they have not.  Without permission it is not okay, legally or ethically.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2008, 02:11:01 pm »
Therein lies the problem. I don't agree. You're assuming here that you know them and what they feel too. Hey, some of the rps were outrageous. Some have bad writing. But here we go again, lumping it all together.

I'd say the problem is assuming it's OK to write these stories because the survivors--or the principles--haven't said it's not OK. In the case of survivors, I think that shows a lack of sensitivity to the feelings of others.
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Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2008, 07:19:46 pm »
So the issue here is sex and not the fact that its about real people? Oh okay because I thought the 'distasteful' part of RPS was that they people were real, but I now see we are discussing something else entirely.

So sex is perverse? Is it more acceptable if its a man and a woman having sexual relations in RPF?

some sex is perverse...like necrophilia for example.

Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2008, 07:24:45 pm »
Everyone deals with grief in their own way, some want to cry, some want to talk, some want to listen to music, some want to tell jokes ... and some want to write.  So if it helps ease someones pain by writing a story about Heath, then so be it.

Everyone needs to show a little more tolerence..... just my 2 pennies worth.  :)

Susie  :D

 I acknowledge the idea that people grieve in their own way but that does not mean all ways of grieving are acceptable. For example, doing illegal drugs to escape the pain. Also, if someone wants to grieve about Heath by writing a RPS why do they feel the need to make this "act of grief" public? It seems there is something more going on when the story is put on the Internet. That's why  I don't quite but the writing RPS as a way of dealing with grief argument.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2008, 07:31:53 pm »
I already made it clear that I could not know but could only base it upon my own feelings if someone wrote that about me.  I don't know Michelle, but I think I can safely assume that she would be upset if Heath had an affair with Jake while they were living together, so a fictional story about it would be equally upsetting.   It is not an unwarranted assumption, but rather quite a reasonable one.  But this begs the question: it does not matter whether or not they are upset - it matters whether they have given permission to be written about.  And they have not.  Without permission it is not okay, legally or ethically.

Yeah Louise,  I read a story today about how upset Michelle was with US Magazine for printing a false story about Heath. Ledger's publicist released the followinf statement: ""let this grieving family bury their son in private and with dignity". I think that statement sums it up. I must say that I am surprised that the sites that host RPS stories did not at least have some sort of moratorium on posting Heath RPS in honor of his memory and out of respect for his family. Very disappointing.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2008, 07:34:40 pm »
I think what it boils down to, realistically, is that those who feel moved to declare their own moratoriums, do so and not be shy about doing so, because I am not sure anyone's opinion will be changed by this point.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2008, 08:05:32 pm »
I had to smile at this statement .... you have no less than 65 public threads here at Bettermost, all entirely devoted to grieving the death of Heath, so why should these writers be any less entitled to grieve publically?

Incidentally, I'm not a fan of RPS stories, but each to his/her own.

Susie  :)

That's different, those are testimonials not stories that have explicit sexual content involving a person who has just died. There is nothing in those threads that would add to the grief of Heath's family and friends.

Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2008, 08:20:40 pm »
I'm not going to get into a slanging match with anyone here, but I think that some of the threads could very well be upsetting to Heath's family and friends ... I've found some of them very upsetting myself, which is why I've stayed away from them.

Susie  :)

They are upsetting because they deal with the tragic loss of such a fine young man. When I said RPS would be upsetting to Heath's family and friends I meant upsetting in a way that they would find the material offensive and disrespectful. I don't think they would find that in those other threads. They are dedicated to Heath Ledger The Man Heath Ledger The Human Being.. RPS is Heath Ledger the Lie, Heath Ledger And Jake Gyllenhaal Having sex. Big difference.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2008, 11:42:45 pm »
I think what it boils down to, realistically, is that those who feel moved to declare their own moratoriums, do so and not be shy about doing so, because I am not sure anyone's opinion will be changed by this point.

I think you're right, Louise. I doubt that anyone who felt that RPS--and by the "S" here I specifically mean sex--stories about Heath were acceptable when he was alive are going to find them unacceptable now that he's dead.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2008, 07:16:14 am »
No I was referring to discussions that I find disrespectful.  I find it disrespectful to bicker over whether or not some masseuse should or shouldn't have done something sooner, I find it disrespectful to batter the Olsen twin for going out for a drink, I find it disrespectful to bully Jake Gyllenhaal into making a public statement (no one has suggested Julie Stiles or Sienna Miller make one) and ...... I know I'm going to get shot for this one .... I find it disrespectful to put Heath so high on a pedestal that he's become almost saint-like and I find it very upsetting when people here talk as though they are about to throw themselves out of a window.

He was a wonderful actor, and from what we've seen in interviews, he seemed like a thoroughly likeable guy ... someone I'd definitely like to get to know better... and I felt so very deeply sad when I heard about his tragic death.  But all this hero-worshiping and squabbling and bickering is upsetting and in my opinion, disrespectful.

But as I've said before ... some people want to talk, some people need to get angry, some people want to write .... I listen to AC/DC!  :)

Susie  :)

Susie what you obviously fail to understand is, that for many people here, Heath, by portraying Ennis in BBM, has changed a LOT of peoples lives for the better and really helped them to understand more about themselves and who they are etc.
So his tragic death has had a really big impact on their lives. I find your comment about "hero worshiping" and putting Heath on a pedestal, and comments about people wanting to throw themselves out of the window, extreemly disrespectful and insensitive. I,m reading between the lines here, so I,m sure you,ll correct me if I,m wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that people should stop crying and being upset, pull themselves together and get on with their lives. I may be wrong, but that,s how I,m reading it.
Obviously your not a very sensitive person, (thats how your coming across to me, so again correct me if I,m wrong), but many people here are, and they are very upset. To them, Heath WAS their hero for the way he helped them in their lives through his portrayal of Ennis. Of course, to his little girl, her daddy will always be her hero.  :'( :'(

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #93 on: February 01, 2008, 10:57:55 am »
Folks,

We are 10 days on from Heath's death. As I look at messages all over this forum, I can see that we are all in different places with respect to grief, and we are all processing things in different ways. I have read so many statements. Some have made me happy, some have made me sad, some have surprised me, some have dismayed me, and yes, a few have made me angry. I've been a pretty active discussant myself and I have probably made people happy, sad, mad, and everything in between. My point is, we are all human individuals and we are all processing this our own way--and trying to find the best way--so let's just all keep that in mind and try to give everyone some slack.

Back to the topic at hand, RPS. Reading this thread, it is apparent that people have very strong feelings on this topic. That's good. The other thing that I have come to realize is that probably no one person is going to change any other person's mind. That's okay, too. For the record, we have had threads for RPS stories, with links to where they are posted on LJ. These threads have been here since I have taken over as fanfic moderator. I don't anticipate that that will change, ie, they'll be deleted. How active they are depends on how active the readers are and their interest in discussing the story.

Just to clarify: Louise and I have never viewed this board as being a comprehensive listing of all fanfic, RPS and other writing endeavors that exist in the BBM fandom. We've always taken the approach that if an author or reader wants to start a thread to promote a story and discuss it, fine. I guess you could call it a selective reading list that reflects the taste of the Bettermost community. RPS has never been a dominant theme in our threads, but I know some stories have been posted in the past, and can be posted in the future. As I said, I don't anticipate any changes in that regard.

At the same time, I think Heath's death has cast the whole issue of RPS in a new light, which was why this particular thread was started in the first place. What the discussions here have done for me is to help me think through some of these issues, evaluate my own feelings and beliefs, and become more clear in what I think and believe. That's a good thing. So my suggestion to all as we more forward in this discussion: don't try to pitch your comments with a goal of changing someone's mind. That is not likely to happen. Instead, share information, your thoughts, your feelings, so that we can all understand multiple points of view, and use that understanding to enhance our relationships with each other and our community.

Thanks for listening,

Leslie
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Offline Berit

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2008, 11:23:54 am »
Hi siouxi,
I really must defend Susie a little. I've "known" her since IMDb, maybe 18 months ago and I find her a sweet, sensitive and a very smart grown up woman. I THINK that she means that Heath is a wonderful actor and it's horrible that he is dead BUT he isn't our relative and he isn't Ennis. He portrayed Ennis and the fact that we sometimes mix Heath with Ennis is a result of his good acting skill. Heath doesn't have to be put on a pedestal, he is good as he is. He probably made good and bad decisions in his life, just like you and me. Let's leave it with that and show him the respect of NOT turning him into something that he isn't, a saint. He was a young man of flesh and blood, as it sounds a very nice man ....

As for the disrespectful discussions she mentioned. The masseuse made the decisions she made. It wasn't easy for her. Maybe it was her first dead body. She new what would happen when the press got hold of the story. It is easy for us to shake our head and say that she did wrong. WE WERE NOT THERE.

As for the Olsen twin, what should she have done? Rolled over in ashes?

As for Jake and Heath, we really don't know much about their relationship now. Lets just leave him alone. His grieve is his, not ours. We have nothing to do with that. I say OK to sending him a card, just as I OK to sending one to Michelle. They have reps that sort that kind of mail and if they find it bad timing or inappropriate they sort the cards out....

We all mourn in different ways. But I think that it is good that we discuss the different ways we express our grief. If you threaten to throw your self out of a window when Heath dies, how do you handle the loss of a husband or sibling or parent......

I really don't mean to be disrespectful to you, Siouxi but I find the subject interesting and Susie a very smart and sensitive person.....Maybe I've done things worse, in that case I say I'm sorry. I don't mean to do things worse. Everything I want to say is very clear in my Swedish head but then I have to translate it into English and then I have to spell it...... ::) ...thank God for Spell check!!

I wish you a nice day

Berit

Ennis.....always Ennis.....

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2008, 11:35:59 am »
Well it just shows me that you don't know me at all Souxi ... so perhaps we should leave it there.

Susie  :)

And you don,t know me atall either susie, so yes maybe we should.

Offline Berit

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2008, 11:40:30 am »
Thanks sweetie......"blushing"

You sure know how to make me happy...... :-*

My school English IS improving but the "every day language",......I want to go to the UK...... :D...and afterthat to the Great Country Over There.......

I'll join a lottery ;D

Berit
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Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2008, 11:43:36 am »
Berit I,m sure that everything you have said about Susie being a very nice person is true. I have not said she isn,t nice. All I,m saying is that I found her comments disrespectful and insensitive and I stand by that.
You have a nice day too. :)

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2008, 11:46:32 am »
Thank you Siouxi!

I do love your "Heath picture". It makes me sad and happy at the same time.....

Berit
Ennis.....always Ennis.....

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #99 on: February 01, 2008, 01:35:35 pm »
If discussions of issues are for the purpose of venting our spleen and voicing our thoughts, I think that certainly plenty of that has been done!  Also, I think that it has helped those who are uneasy, or newly-uneasy about RPS, such as myself, because I felt anguished about the fact that I had written an RPS story (though on the "mild" end of the scale) and I had read several.

But seconding what MaineWriter has said, if minds have been changed, they were changed by the tragedy of Heath's sudden death, not by the eloquence of anyone here.

I hope that whatever anger or frustration was generated by the discussion will fade and that we can get along with one another despite our disagreements.  I was not prepared by the media feeding-frenzy over Heath's death - truth to tell, it rather astonished me that it got a red banner Breaking News headline on CNN the day it happened.  The massive press coverage, both mainstream and in the tabloids, has been shocking its comprehensiveness.

And I don't even watch tv! I imagine it is far more intrusive for those who watch television.  What I am trying to say is that whether or not we are ready to leap out windows or whether we were mildly sad, for many people in this forum, Heath was an important symbol for one central reason -- his portrayal of Ennis.  And I think the depth of that portrayal colors the reaction we have all had to his death, mainly because of its unexpectedness.  It is in many ways (for those of us who were his fans) analogous to the death of John Lennon in the life of a Beatles fan, just as sudden and just as disturbing.  However, I do also believe that that tabloid media have deepened the grief by gossip and speculation.

That was not my intent in starting this thread, to cause pain to fans.  It was to allow all opinions regarding RPS stories to be expressed, in light of the tragedy, and there is little room in this fandom, outside of Bettermost, for the dissenting view that it is disrespectful or should be discouraged.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #100 on: February 01, 2008, 01:52:32 pm »
However, I do also believe that that tabloid media have deepened the grief by gossip and speculation.

Very well-said. Adding to the stress of being confronted with the tabloid media (to a lesser extent fortunately because I live in Europe), this discussion has caused me a lot of grief and I will therefore not be participating in it further.

All I want to say before I leave is that shortly after Heath's death I thought of the fandom and there was no doubt in my mind that the people who had been writing and/or reading RPS would discontinue reading and writing. I am so extremely disappointed in some people's faulty reasoning as to why it's OK to continue writing slash about a person who is dead and not even buried yet. And what baffles me even more is how the people who are pro-RPS are victimizing themselves. Please take a step back from what YOU want (which is continuing reading/writing these stories because you like it so much) and think of what the people you write about would want.




Offline Berit

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #101 on: February 01, 2008, 02:08:14 pm »
I think it's an important subject you have brought to our attention. I don't write RPS and I have read one. It ain't my cup of tea.....but I don't want to put guilt on those who do....there is also good and bad RPS, there must be, everything else is.....

It is never wrong to discuss how we treat our celebs....dead or alive...and our "ordinary" fellow human being. Ethics is a subject we should discuss more, regardless of the background. It is also a subject where there can be many "right" and "wrong"....

Berit
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #102 on: February 01, 2008, 02:30:11 pm »
Heath was an important symbol for one central reason -- his portrayal of Ennis.  And I think the depth of that portrayal colors the reaction we have all had to his death, mainly because of its unexpectedness.  It is in many ways (for those of us who were his fans) analogous to the death of John Lennon in the life of a Beatles fan, just as sudden and just as disturbing.  However, I do also believe that that tabloid media have deepened the grief by gossip and speculation.

However one got the news, it's a little bit like unexpectedly getting a postcard stamped "Deceased," isn't it?  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2008, 06:46:33 pm »
Everyone deals with grief in their own way, some want to cry, some want to talk, some want to listen to music, some want to tell jokes ... and some want to write.  So if it helps ease someones pain by writing a story about Heath, then so be it.

Fine, free speech and all. But that's a two-way street. Like it or not, RPS is not viewed now the way it was before January 22nd, and none of us is obligated to be so open-minded our brains fall out.

Every creative endeavor has its obstacles. People writing RPS from here on out will have to deal with negative reactions, and no amount of lecturing will change that. RPS writers will have to either live with it or do something else.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2008, 11:09:27 am »
Heaths death doesn,t change a thing?? Did I read that right? Errr yes it does actually. The man his dead. How can you possibly even sit there and THINK about writing RPS about him now? Can you not understand that it is totally disrepectful to his memory and his family and friends? I used to read RPS, but I will never read any RPS now involving Jake and Heath. It,s WRONG. Show some respect.

This is a discussion not a lecture hour.



« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 12:47:23 pm by MaineWriter »
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Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2008, 11:12:07 am »
Excuse me? That's beyond disturbing, IMHO. You mean you would find Heath - who is dead - looking over your shoulder and reading RPS about himself and his good friend Jake having sex, hot?




Yes and I felt that way when he was alive.

I just don't feel guilty for the things I read and write. I'm starting to think a little bit of this conversation is more about homophobia and less about the two people involved since sex is mentioned over and over and over again.



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Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2008, 11:13:55 am »
some sex is perverse...like necrophilia for example.

So why write DEAD!Jack fic?? Or a fic talking about having sex near something that was special to Jack?
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Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2008, 11:18:30 am »
Fine, free speech and all. But that's a two-way street. Like it or not, RPS is not viewed now the way it was before January 22nd, and none of us is obligated to be so open-minded our brains fall out.

Every creative endeavor has its obstacles. People writing RPS from here on out will have to deal with negative reactions, and no amount of lecturing will change that. RPS writers will have to either live with it or do something else.


No problem there, close minded people are abundant and I respect their right to be conservative.

That's fine.

But why waste your time reading if you're so against it?

Plus I guess you will have to keep that here since the mod of BBSlash has banned any harassment of RPS writers and yes the authors are aware of that and will report anyone who does such a thing. So save yourselves the trouble and keep 'discussing' things here is my advice.
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Offline Berit

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2008, 11:21:01 am »
Really, I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with homophobia ! I think that dis diskussion is about how we see RPS in the light of Heath's death...
Ennis.....always Ennis.....

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2008, 11:29:32 am »
Heath's changed us. It changed how you feel about this, which is passionate. I don't have a problem with your belief or your choice to not read or write rps. What I do I have problem with is judgment of others for their choices. You think it's wrong and you believe it's a way to show respect. Please don't imply those who read and write rps don't.

I couldn't agree more. Perfectly said. Thank you.
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Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2008, 11:30:59 am »
This is a discussion not a lecture hour.


I never said it was. My opinion remains the same. It is wrong, IMO, to continue to write RPS about Heath and Jake having an affair, now that Heath is dead, and if you continue to do that, then it,s you who isn,t showing any respect. I,m not lecturing anyone, just giving my opinion. Like it or lump it.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 12:48:54 pm by MaineWriter »

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2008, 11:32:28 am »
Yes and I felt that way when he was alive.

I just don't feel guilty for the things I read and write. I'm starting to think a little bit of this conversation is more about homophobia and less about the two people involved since sex is mentioned over and over and over again.





And I didn,t feel guilty for reading RPS whilst Heath was alive, but now, sadly he has gone, and it,s disrespectful to continue to write such stories about him, IMO.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2008, 11:33:40 am »
I never said it was. My opinion remains the same. It is wrong, IMO, to continue to write RPS about Heath and Jake having an affair, now that Heath is dead, and if you continue to do that, then it,s you who isn,t showing any respect. I,m not lecturing anyone, just giving my opinion. Like it or lump it.

Yes we've heard your opinion now about twenty times. We understand. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and words on this subject matter.

However you are still passing judgment, therefore, you are not simply stating an opinion.

Bottom line sweetheart, if you don't like it, don't read it.



« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 01:27:39 pm by louise van hine »
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2008, 11:38:00 am »
Yes we've heard your opinion now about twenty times. We understand. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and words on this subject matter.

However you are still passing judgment, therefore, you are not simply stating an opinion.

Bottom line sweetheart, if you don't like it, don't read it.



Well "sweetheart", I,m glad you understand my opinion. I,m not passing judgement on anyone. I,m simply saying, for the 21st time, that IMO it is WRONG, to continue to write RPS about Heath and Jake now that Heath has died. I dont, really think that calling me un-intelligent is helpful to anyone is it? And as for showing respect, well I,m not the one writing RPS about Heath am I? If you or any other author continues to write it, well thats up to you and sadly theres nothing I can do about that..........sweetheart.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 01:28:36 pm by louise van hine »

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2008, 11:40:28 am »
Well "sweetheart", I,m glad you understand my opinion. I,m not passing judgement on anyone. I,m simply saying, for the 21st time, that IMO it is WRONG, to continue to write RPS about Heath and Jake now that Heath has died. I dont, really think that calling me un-intelligent is helpful to anyone is it? And as for showing respect, well I,m not the one writing RPS about Heath am I? If you or any other author continues to write it, well thats up to you and sadly theres nothing I can do about that..........sweetheart.

You're right there is nothing you can do about it, please keep that in mind when RPS is posted. Your argument is limited to this forum.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts sweetheart.  :)
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2008, 11:42:15 am »
You're right there is nothing you can do about it, please keep that in mind when RPS is posted. Your argument is limited to this forum.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts sweetheart.  :)

Oh I will. I hope you enjoy writing RPS about Heath now that he,s gone. I for one won,t be reading it. For the 22nd time, it,s disrespectful. Oh and I,ll share my thoughts any day, you can count on that,..........sweetheart.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #116 on: February 02, 2008, 11:44:21 am »
Folks,

Leslie the Moderator stepping in. I am going to lock this thread for the moment. I asked yesterday if we could keep this discussion civil, recognizing that it is one that inspires strong feelings. Reading some of the comments now, I am somewhat concerned about the lack of common courtesy. I want to think about what has been said here and determine if anything constitutes a personal attack. If so, those messages will be deleted.

After conferring with Louise, my co-moderator, I'll make the decision if this thread should be unlocked. I have had one request to delete it altogether, so I'll discuss that with Louise, too.

Thanks,

Leslie
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #117 on: February 02, 2008, 01:03:18 pm »
Folks,

Update: I have unlocked the thread and modified messages which Louise and I have determined to be personal attacks. For the moment, we are going to give it a go to have a respectful, civil discussion on the topic of RPS. If things escalate once again, we may lock the thread permanently and perhaps even delete it. We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

Please remember: this is a topic that generates heated opinions. I ask that everyone be respectful of others opinions, even if you don't agree with them. As I stated yesterday, the goal here is not to change someone's mind but rather, to clarify and illuminate what we believe, so that we might all learn from the discussion. If you can't or don't want to participate in that way, then I suggest you refrain from the conversation.

Also, our guiding rule here at Bettermost is no personal attacks. Please keep that in mind.

I'd like to remind everyone of a quote from Brokeback Mountain by Annie Proulx: They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Thanks,

Leslie
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Members,

This is an admittedly controversial topic. I opened it here because this is the only forum, perhaps other than Wranglers, that will allow for members expressing their own personal opinions about the issue of Heath's death and its effect on RPS stories without undue pressure or interference, and I believe that the ability to talk about how we feel now, considering our sadness about Heath - is an important element of the grieving and moving on process.  This forum allows for differing opinions - not everyone is going to agree.  And if you find that this thread is annoying to you, then please stay away from it, and if a member's posts are irritating you, please feel free to use the 'ignore' key.  However, stating that rps authors are under attack because a member finds the stories disrespectful to Heath's memory or his family, is taking things a little too personally.  No one here is making personal accusations about authors and I do not believe that any of us have stated, nor do we believe, that rps is a kind of 'malice aforethought' intended to upset people.  I would like to keep this thread open, if possible, and not deleted - because people have needed to talk about it.  In my case, it is the most emotional and most important issue affecting me in this fandom now that Heath has passed on.

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« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 01:18:28 pm by louise van hine »
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Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #118 on: February 02, 2008, 01:21:01 pm »
No problem there, close minded people are abundant and I respect their right to be conservative.

That's fine.

But why waste your time reading if you're so against it?

Plus I guess you will have to keep that here since the mod of BBSlash has banned any harassment of RPS writers and yes the authors are aware of that and will report anyone who does such a thing. So save yourselves the trouble and keep 'discussing' things here is my advice.

I think it should be clarified here that BBSlash moderator made a post that was largely about urging people to get back to the purpose of BBSlash - which is not discussion.  No 'banning of harassers' occurred, nor were any messages removed to my knowledge.  But it is not a discussion forum, and she merely pointed out that RPS stories would continue to be welcome to be posted.  It has never been a discussion forum, but during the aftermath, discussions were opened - which is not what BBSlash is there for.  The policy did not change.
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #119 on: February 02, 2008, 01:35:30 pm »
Yes and I felt that way when he was alive.

I just don't feel guilty for the things I read and write. I'm starting to think a little bit of this conversation is more about homophobia and less about the two people involved since sex is mentioned over and over and over again.





There is a big difference between finding fantasized sex stories about real people disgusting, and finding sex between members of the same sex disgusting.  There are a large number of gay men, some of whom have posted on this discussion, who are perfectly comfortable with gay sex but are horrified by real person sex stories, so this is in my opinion a false conclusion.  Sex is very personal, and in the mainstream, stories about sex are sensitive.  Sex stories about real people, when they are fictional, are EXTREMELY sensitive.  And also are in very deeply questionable legal territory.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #120 on: February 02, 2008, 02:25:43 pm »
So why write DEAD!Jack fic?? Or a fic talking about having sex near something that was special to Jack?

You do realize that Jack Twist is a fictional character.  It's not the same as a fanatasy about an actual real person who is now dead.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #121 on: February 02, 2008, 02:31:35 pm »
You do realize that Jack Twist is a fictional character.  It's not the same as a fanatasy about an actual real person who is now dead.

I,m so glad you pointed that out . I was going too but I thought I,d wait and see if someone else did first.  :laugh:

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #122 on: February 02, 2008, 02:43:10 pm »
Oh I will. I hope you enjoy writing RPS about Heath now that he,s gone. I for one won,t be reading it. For the 22nd time, it,s disrespectful. Oh and I,ll share my thoughts any day, you can count on that,..........sweetheart.

Hi Souxi, I'm glad you will continue to share your thoughts on this issue. I find it interesting that those who approve RPS get all out of sorts when they think we are calling the writers immoral or unethical, but have no problem using such phrases as "close minded" and" judgemental". 
As to what the tabloids are writing, I also find it curious that one would find such gossip disrespectful but have no problem with RPS Heath stories posted so soon after his death or ever. There is a disconnect there that  I don't quite understand. Having said that here are my thoughts on why  I will not read RPS.
Heath Ledger was a son, a brother, a nephew, a friend, a lover, and a father.  And He left behind his parents, his siblings , his friends and a daughter.  He was not just an actor put on this Earth for only our personal enjoyment. He was and still is even in death entitled to the same respect for privacy that we all ask. When did he give permission for us to enter into his personal life? When did he give us permission to enter into his bedroom? When did he give us permission to stop thinking of him as a human being but as an object or character for our own personal enjoyment? For me the answer is quite clear. The answer is never. So Souxi, I too think it is wrong to write or read such slash.  And yes we can avoid it if we want to but that does not mean we can not express our opinion on it. If they can continue to write it; we can continue to object . Just as they have a right to express their feelings so do we.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #123 on: February 02, 2008, 02:46:51 pm »
I,m so glad you pointed that out . I was going too but I thought I,d wait and see if someone else did first.  :laugh:

Yes, IMO, I think that illustrates the problem with RPS.  I think to many of them Heath was never real and that's why they think they can write anything about him without thought to the consequences it may have on his family, friends and even some fans.  As Louise pointed out it is about respect for the individual which RPS lacks.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #124 on: February 02, 2008, 02:57:21 pm »
Hi Souxi, I'm glad you will continue to share your thoughts on this issue. I find it interesting that those who approve RPS get all out of sorts when they think we are calling the writers immoral or unethical, but have no problem using such phrases as "close minded" and" judgemental". 
As to what the tabloids are writing, I also find it curious that one would find such gossip disrespectful but have no problem with RPS Heath stories posted so soon after his death or ever. There is a disconnect there that  I don't quite understand. Having said that here are my thoughts on why  I will not read RPS.
Heath Ledger was a son, a brother, a nephew, a friend, a lover, and a father.  And He left behind his parents, his siblings , his friends and a daughter.  He was not just an actor put on this Earth for only our personal enjoyment. He was and still is even in death entitled to the same respect for privacy that we all ask. When did he give permission for us to enter into his personal life? When did he give us permission to enter into his bedroom? When did he give us permission to stop thinking of him as a human being but as an object or character for our own personal enjoyment? For me the answer is quite clear. The answer is never. So Souxi, I too think it is wrong to write or read such slash.  And yes we can avoid it if we want to but that does not mean we can not express our opinion on it. If they can continue to write it; we can continue to object . Just as they have a right to express their feelings so do we.


Here here, brilliantly put. As you said, Jack Twist is fictional, so writing slash about him doesn,t matter. Heath on the other hand is very very real, even though sadly, he is no longer with us.  :'(

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #125 on: February 02, 2008, 03:14:38 pm »
Unfortunately, and fortunately, celebrities give up a certain amount of right to privacy when they become public figures.  In the life of a famous person, speculating about their lives and their work, even to the point of gossiping and telling untruths, can be done with a certain impunity, due to this clause 'public interest.'

If there is any legal defensibility to RPS stories, or RPF (real person fiction, not necessarily slash) it would be public interest.  In exchange for the publicity they create and the living they make from publicity, the loss they suffer, while irritating and sometimes very humiliating, is to a certain extent both permissible and legal.

This is where ethics comes in.  IF we apply the standards to Heath's life and to the suffering of his innocent family members, as well as his small daughter, as we do to our own, there are things we would never tolerate, and one of these things is people speculating about our sex lives and people we go to bed with. I believe that the reason we are talking about ethics here is that we are grappling with someone who has touched us all in some deep and emotional way, and to some ofus, we can no longer look on with what now feels like a prurient and selfish interest while others claim artistic right and freedom to do the same.  I believe at base it is an ethics discussion.
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Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #126 on: February 02, 2008, 03:23:47 pm »
Unfortunately, and fortunately, celebrities give up a certain amount of right to privacy when they become public figures.  In the life of a famous person, speculating about their lives and their work, even to the point of gossiping and telling untruths, can be done with a certain impunity, due to this clause 'public interest.'

If there is any legal defensibility to RPS stories, or RPF (real person fiction, not necessarily slash) it would be public interest.  In exchange for the publicity they create and the living they make from publicity, the loss they suffer, while irritating and sometimes very humiliating, is to a certain extent both permissible and legal.

This is where ethics comes in.  IF we apply the standards to Heath's life and to the suffering of his innocent family members, as well as his small daughter, as we do to our own, there are things we would never tolerate, and one of these things is people speculating about our sex lives and people we go to bed with. I believe that the reason we are talking about ethics here is that we are grappling with someone who has touched us all in some deep and emotional way, and to some ofus, we can no longer look on with what now feels like a prurient and selfish interest while others claim artistic right and freedom to do the same.  I believe at base it is an ethics discussion.

I understand that celebrities fall under the public interest clause but does that mean anything can be said or written about them without impunity?  I recall a gossip site being stopped for printing some things about Jake Gyllenhaal . But as you said it really is a discussion about ethics and whether we view Heath Ledger as a person or a character.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #127 on: February 02, 2008, 03:27:58 pm »
I understand that celebrities fall under the public interest clause but does that mean anything can be said or written about them without impunity?  I recall a gossip site being stopped for printing some things about Jake Gyllenhaal . But as you said it really is a discussion about ethics and whether we view Heath Ledger as a person or a character.

No, they can't print anything, and they can't say anything, but there is a great deal of leeway in speculation.

For example, the case of the lapdancer in London who said she spent the night with Heath having sex and doing coke.  It is her word against his, and he is dead.  Because he is dead, he can't sue for defamation of character.  If he were alive, she would not be able to accuse him of doing so without she and the publication being liable for defamation of character.  But the publication can't prove it, they don't have to show she was telling the truth, and there is no invasion of Heath's privacy or defamation of his character since those only apply to living people.


It is still despicable.
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #128 on: February 02, 2008, 03:30:06 pm »
I understand that celebrities fall under the public interest clause but does that mean anything can be said or written about them without impunity?  I recall a gossip site being stopped for printing some things about Jake Gyllenhaal . But as you said it really is a discussion about ethics and whether we view Heath Ledger as a person or a character.

Exactly right ENEN. It is, (again IMO,) treating him like a piece of meat, something purely for "entertainment". The man is dead. :'( I still feel, and I always will feel, that writing about him in that context now, is wrong and disrespectful. Ennis is another matter, he,s fictional, but not Heath.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #129 on: February 02, 2008, 03:32:52 pm »
No, they can't print anything, and they can't say anything, but there is a great deal of leeway in speculation.

For example, the case of the lapdancer in London who said she spent the night with Heath having sex and doing coke.  It is her word against his, and he is dead.  Because he is dead, he can't sue for defamation of character.  If he were alive, she would not be able to accuse him of doing so without she and the publication being liable for defamation of character.  But the publication can't prove it, they don't have to show she was telling the truth, and there is no invasion of Heath's privacy or defamation of his character since those only apply to living people.


It is still despicable.

Even though the poor man is dead, they don,t consider the trash this woman has told about him, defamation of his character?? Unbeleivable! >:( As you rightly said, it,s despicable. I sincerely hope no more gutter trash comes out like that.Have these people no morals, or respect atall? I can,t beleive all this crap is coming out already. Poor Heath hasn,t even been buried yet. They make me sick the lot of them.  >:( >:( >:(

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #130 on: February 02, 2008, 03:47:29 pm »
Even though the poor man is dead, they don,t consider the trash this woman has told about him, defamation of his character?? Unbeleivable! >:( As you rightly said, it,s despicable. I sincerely hope no more gutter trash comes out like that.Have these people no morals, or respect atall? I can,t beleive all this crap is coming out already. Poor Heath hasn,t even been buried yet. They make me sick the lot of them.  >:( >:( >:(

Souxi, I agree, but this is how tabloids make money. And they have done it for years and years and years. It is not something that was invented with Heath's death.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #131 on: February 02, 2008, 06:34:39 pm »
IMHO it doesn't make any difference if the person an RPS story is written about is alive or dead. Either you find it okay to write/read fake (sex) stories about a real person or not. I don't like them, but that's just me. I wouldn't want to read fake (sex) stories about me in the internet either, and even less if I was a well known person.

Dagi


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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #132 on: February 02, 2008, 07:55:01 pm »
I think Louise puts it very well. I really think that this discussion is about HOW we see the celebrity we take an interest in. Can we accept papz pictures? Well, most people say that the papz are horrible but they still read magazines - some claim that they read those mags just waiting for the dentist..... ::)......Other accept writing stories about them......What is more wrong?If the Cele feels invaded by the papas but don't care about the stories - he don't have to read them - what hurts the most?

Now I say Good Night, it's 00.53 here....looong past bedtime  ;)

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #133 on: February 02, 2008, 09:41:12 pm »
You do realize that Jack Twist is a fictional character.  It's not the same as a fanatasy about an actual real person who is now dead.


I realise it yes, I worry that other people believe that however.  ;)

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #134 on: February 02, 2008, 09:43:17 pm »
Yes, IMO, I think that illustrates the problem with RPS.  I think to many of them Heath was never real and that's why they think they can write anything about him without thought to the consequences it may have on his family, friends and even some fans.  As Louise pointed out it is about respect for the individual which RPS lacks.

So you assume his family comes on-line to read RPS on BBslash??

Well I suppose that is a valid argument given the number of legal action taken against certain authors who only wrote BBM fan fiction. I see your point, you just never know who is watching, be it Focus Features or Michelle herself who reads Brokeback boards and fan sites.
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #135 on: February 02, 2008, 09:45:56 pm »
IMHO it doesn't make any difference if the person an RPS story is written about is alive or dead. Either you find it okay to write/read fake (sex) stories about a real person or not. I don't like them, but that's just me. I wouldn't want to read fake (sex) stories about me in the internet either, and even less if I was a well known person.

Dagi



I agree with this. Death has nothing to do with it, if anything it has LESS to do with it now that the person isn't here to read it. (Though the image of Heath sitting down to read his own RPS is hilarious). If you've never liked RPS, fine. What I don't understand is the sudden change people are making because he died. People still write about John Lennon and James Dean and nothing changed. It didn't bring them back or hurt them (or their family) anymore. It's giving RPS authors more credit than needed to assume celebs are going to come on-line and read their stories. But I will say thank you for the compliment of assuming such a thing.  ;)
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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #136 on: February 02, 2008, 09:53:08 pm »
Yes, IMO, I think that illustrates the problem with RPS.  I think to many of them Heath was never real and that's why they think they can write anything about him without thought to the consequences it may have on his family, friends and even some fans.  As Louise pointed out it is about respect for the individual which RPS lacks.

Also, I realise Heath was very much real, but thank you for implying otherwise.

Don't assume you know what authors are thinking because you don't. Ever.

 You have every right to not read RPS (though it still baffles me how you all will criticize something you don't even plan to read) but to assume you know why and how or what about what is inside a person's mind, well that's just not something you can do and call it a fact. It's simply your opinion.

As long as readers don't bother RPS writers, I see nothing wrong with having little threads like this to discuss in and agree with each other.
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Offline ENEN

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #137 on: February 02, 2008, 10:03:53 pm »
Also, I realise Heath was very much real, but thank you for implying otherwise.

Don't assume you know what authors are thinking because you don't. Ever.

 You have every right to not read RPS (though it still baffles me how you all will criticize something you don't even plan to read) but to assume you know why and how or what about what is inside a person's mind, well that's just not something you can do and call it a fact. It's simply your opinion.

As long as readers don't bother RPS writers, I see nothing wrong with having little threads like this to discuss in and agree with each other.

Oh I'm not assuming anything. I'm only going by what some writers have said. I've read where they have said they don't consider Heath real but a character in a pretend story.  Granted I'm sure not every writer feels that way. But don't you make the assumption that none of them feel or write that way.
As for not being able to understand how I could criticize something  I don't read let me give you an example to clarify for you. I don't read racist skinhead literature but I disapprove of it and would criticize it. It's actually quite understandable how one could do that.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2008, 11:07:51 pm »
Also, I realise Heath was very much real, but thank you for implying otherwise.

Don't assume you know what authors are thinking because you don't. Ever.

 You have every right to not read RPS (though it still baffles me how you all will criticize something you don't even plan to read) but to assume you know why and how or what about what is inside a person's mind, well that's just not something you can do and call it a fact. It's simply your opinion.

As long as readers don't bother RPS writers, I see nothing wrong with having little threads like this to discuss in and agree with each other.

It is easy to determine what authors think because they have written a great deal about what they think - particularly recently.  And writers have repeatedly said that they do not consider the Jake and Heath they write about as 'anything more than characters.'

If you are an RPS reader, or writer, nothing compels you to debate this point here.  And this thread is being moderated only to screen out personal attacks - all opinions are welcome to be voiced, and this is one of the few places where opinions are not moderated.  I stopped voicing my objections to RPS on another forum because I was asked not to - by a moderator.  No such content moderation is done on this forum, nor will it.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline malina

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2008, 06:19:18 am »
I was amazed to discover that RPS existed, a little more than a year ago. Actually, my reaction to it was much the same as my initial reaction of fanfic in general, which was also new to me. I was incredulous that it was "allowed"... totally incredulous, and kind of fascinated, and also quite drawn in, because the only RPS/ fanfiction I have ever read, to this date, was Jack/Ennis and Heath/Jake. Both and either, if done well, can be sizzling and lovely..

But, I do draw a distinction between the two. I have written Jack/Ennis fanfics, but I don't think it ever crossed my mind to try and write RPS. But, as I have read it and enjoyed it, implicitly, I don't judge those who do write it.

After Heath's death, I don't think I could read any more RPS involving him.. or Jake either, for that matter. It's like ... well, RPS is a fantasy, right? A collective, or shared fantasy... and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's different from sharing, say, fantasies about your next door neighbour, because these are people who have put their personas out there for the public. A piece of that person becomes.. well, disjointed, separated from who he really is. In a sense, it's like when I was fourteen and I had a picture of Matt Dillon with no shirt on in my locker. I had no idea and little concern for who he really was. It was just that shirtless piece of him... like a little slice of the man's persona.

But when someone dies, and we mourn him... well, now it feels like he can't be anything but real. It's like he's taken back all those pieces of himself that were dispersed out in the world, and he's just real Heath. Not our fantasy, collective or otherwise - just real flesh and blood existance. And we can't play with that. That's my gut feeling, anyway.

I don't know how it will be as time passes. And I don't know if ... well, it's very soothing, right now, to read little Jack w/ Ennis stories, and feel like they're living their lives, still, somewhere. But they were fictional characters to begin with. It might be soothing to believe that Heath lives on, too, but the truth is that he doesn't, not on the physical plane, anyhow. To pretend otherwise is to ignore the fact of his death, and that really does seem disrespectful, somehow..


Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2008, 06:34:13 am »
I agree with this. Death has nothing to do with it, if anything it has LESS to do with it now that the person isn't here to read it. (Though the image of Heath sitting down to read his own RPS is hilarious). If you've never liked RPS, fine. What I don't understand is the sudden change people are making because he died. People still write about John Lennon and James Dean and nothing changed. It didn't bring them back or hurt them (or their family) anymore. It's giving RPS authors more credit than needed to assume celebs are going to come on-line and read their stories. But I will say thank you for the compliment of assuming such a thing.  ;)

How can you say that Heaths death has even less to do with it? It,s got even more to do with it now. Can,t you understand that, or is it that you simply don,t want to understand it? I,ll say it again. Writing RPS about Heath and Jake in sexual situations now that Heath is no longer here is disrespectful, IMO. Obviously you still intend to write such things about him, well that, as I said before is your choice and sadly there is nothing I can do about that. I certainly won,t be reading it, or any other RPS that writers write about him. It is disrespctful to his family, his friends and his memory, again, thats MY opinion.

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2008, 06:37:37 am »
So you assume his family comes on-line to read RPS on BBslash??

Well I suppose that is a valid argument given the number of legal action taken against certain authors who only wrote BBM fan fiction. I see your point, you just never know who is watching, be it Focus Features or Michelle herself who reads Brokeback boards and fan sites.

Whether or not Heaths family come on line to read RPS about their son, isn,t the point here. It,s the principal of the thing, which you either can,t or simply refuse to see.

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2008, 07:00:19 am »
And something else that just occured to me. It doesn,t even seem right now, to write RPS about Jake. Odd I know, that,s just how I feel. :-\ I always think of Jake and Heath together, (and I don,t mean in sexual situations either, just generally) and writing about one without the other seems wrong, like there,s a bit missing. Does that make any sense?

Offline malina

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2008, 07:07:39 am »
And something else that just occured to me. It doesn,t even seem right now, to write RPS about Jake. Odd I know, that,s just how I feel. :-\ I always think of Jake and Heath together, (and I don,t mean in sexual situations either, just generally) and writing about one without the other seems wrong, like there,s a bit missing. Does that make any sense?

Yes. I wouldn't want read any Jake RPS now, either. Jake is mourning Heath. This has made them real. I mean, they were real already, of course, but when they were both alive and fine and doing well, it was different. We could construct little fantasy versions of them. Right now, they can't be anything but real.

It reminds me of a battle scene in one of the Narnia books, where the ... oh, some kind of magical creatures, dryads or something... were invisible, but when a knife or a sword went through them, they became visible flesh and blood. And that's how they stayed. Sorry if that's a bit morbid.

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2008, 08:16:17 am »
Good Morning Malina
Intersting to read what you have to say. As always well written. I didn't think RPS was anything for me before Heath died, and after....well , now it is even less so. Maybe it has to do with my age, I'm 54 and I have never seen Heath as a "sex symbol", neither Jake. They could both be my sons... :D To me they were two amazing good actors that blew me away with their acting.

I'm not that much for reading BBM Fan Fiction either, the story itself is so beautiful that for me it could be ruined if messed with. The story hasn't a"happy ending" but good stories from "real life" seldom has.

What puzzles me in this debate is the way we see our "celebs". I don't think that an actor, in the beginning of his carer, ever think about giving up a piece of his privacy. At least it's not his main concern. But when fame comes and papz comes and ET comes......and maybe RPS comes.......the private sphere gets smaller and smaller and more important to guard....and the more the actor guards his privacy, the more the papz and so on works to get pics and so on....

I can't bann Tabloids and I can't bann papz and I can't bann RPS...but I can discuss the sanity of it.....

Berit
Ennis.....always Ennis.....

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #145 on: February 04, 2008, 12:44:17 pm »
I think what sneaks up on actors is the sudden rush of fame after laboring in relative obscurity.  Percentagewise, very few actors ever become big stars or celebrities, so no one is really prepared for it.  And the loss of privacy, after laboring for recognition and publicity, must be a great shock.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline RouxB

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #146 on: February 05, 2008, 01:40:12 am »
I have avoided this thread like the plague, have pretty much avoided most threads around here lately. Emotions, mine included, are just too high. I have started and stopped this post a few times and finally figured out what I have to say:

I am a Heathen. While I am not in danger of doing harm to myself, I still cry every single day. I go to bed everynight chanting to myself "tomorrow would be a good day to start Jan. 22nd over". I have made my bargains with every higher power out there, mine and everyone else's. I am sad and depressed and putting on an "everything is ok" face to my world that can't even begin to understand what I'm feeling. I barely understand what I'm feeling (but  I do). The reason for this preambleramble is that I can't imagine anyone having more respect, admiration, appreciation for Heath Ledger than I. He anchors my BbM experience and the hole that is left in my life and my heart has, on occasion, left me in total dispair.

So, to the point, I think we all need to be really really really careful about how we sermonize on the "morality" of RPS (or most anything). To say that RPS is "immoral" in one breath and then turn around and say you aren't calling the writer immoral, and the reader by extention- is pretty sketchy at best and a lot more than sketchy at worst. Being the morality police for others-and I'm talking morality, not legality-is a big job and everyone needs to check their resumes before they apply for it. And, we need to be equally careful about speaking for others. I don't know what Heath thought of fan fiction or any other crap that he didn't mention in an interview. He might have hated it, he might have thought it was
hi-larious, he might not have given 1 giant squat about it. I don't know-and neither do you. The same goes for Jake and Michelle and his parents and Reese's dogs. Every person here who does not have direct knowledge of the opinions/thoughts/wishes/reactions of others are simply projecting their own on to them. That isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you recognize the truth of that. Empathy is what keeps us human so I respect following that path if you think it is disrespectful. Just know it is you, not necessarily them. 

 Where do I stand on the issue? I don't know. I was a reader of Heath/Jake, my opinion is that it is not disrespectful, and that doesn't make me any more or less "bad" than anyone else. Will I continue to read it now-can't say. My entire BbM world has shifted such that I can't say where I'll be, or if I'll be, in Brokiehood when this fog starts to lift. What I can say is that I respect each reader'/writer's/lurker's/Joker's right to follow his or her own heart. I would no more beg a writer who has chosen to discontinue writing RPS to finish than I would beg one who has chosen to continue writing to stop. I am not God because if I was, there would be no need for this discussion.

Before you condemn anyone, just know it could very easily just be a poor, heart shattered Heathen-like me.

Heathen

Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #147 on: February 05, 2008, 02:17:30 am »
So well said. You said it better than I ever could have. It breaks my heart to be called immoral and slandered as a disrespectful person when I too, am just a broken hearted Heathen finding joy and comfort in fictional words. You just never know what is behind a person and its so wrong to assume otherwise.

Thank you. *hugs*
Proud Supporter, Writer, and Reader of RPS

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #148 on: February 05, 2008, 03:42:10 am »
For the record Roux, I have NEVER said anyone is immoral for continuing to write RPS about Heath, I have merely said that IMO it is wrong, now that he has died. And yes I do think it,s disrespctful, I,ve said it before and I,ll say it again. We are all entitled to our opinions and mine is that continuing to write RPS about Heath in sexual situations now that he has died is wrong, and it won,t change. No maybe Michelle and Heaths family will never read RPS about their son, maybe they,ve never heard of it, I don,t know. It,s simply the principal of the thing. I can,t stop writers writing about Heath having sex, even though he,s dead now, sadly that is beyond my control, but I sure as hell don,t have to read it and I won,t. I stand by everything I have said, and if some people don,t like it then thats, just too bad I,m afraid.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #149 on: February 05, 2008, 12:45:35 pm »
So well said. You said it better than I ever could have. It breaks my heart to be called immoral and slandered as a disrespectful person when I too, am just a broken hearted Heathen finding joy and comfort in fictional words. You just never know what is behind a person and its so wrong to assume otherwise.

Thank you. *hugs*

there have been no personal attacks made on this forum and no slander has been done.  If you are finding the expression of general opinions regarding the writing of RPS too upsetting then you may wish to avoid this discussion.  For your clarification, the judgement that real person fiction stories are questionable at best and immoral at worst is widely held in publishing circles, and are banned in many fan areas on the internet for this reason.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #150 on: February 05, 2008, 12:57:47 pm »
there have been no personal attacks made on this forum and no slander has been done.  If you are finding the expression of general opinions regarding the writing of RPS too upsetting then you may wish to avoid this discussion.  For your clarification, the judgement that real person fiction stories are questionable at best and immoral at worst is widely held in publishing circles, and are banned in many fan areas on the internet for this reason.

We all have our opinions here. If I feel I was personally attacked, then my feelings are valid. You are allowed to disagree but I have the final say on what my feelings are. Even in your statement you are insulting me and other authors and readers by calling us immoral. I'm not quite sure how you can't see what you're doing is an insult but it is and very unprofessional for a mod in my personal opinion.

They are questionable and immoral to YOU. That is your and maybe even the opinion of others but that is all it is. Not a fact.

Thank you for the information on publishing circles, its very important to know these things. But the argument here is what we as readers feel about RPS, not about things we can not control whether it be publishing circles or the continued writing and reading of RPS. Gratefully the areas where I read and write are not that close minded as the places you mentioned.

Proud Supporter, Writer, and Reader of RPS

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #151 on: February 05, 2008, 01:17:41 pm »
We all have our opinions here. If I feel I was personally attacked, then my feelings are valid. You are allowed to disagree but I have the final say on what my feelings are. Even in your statement you are insulting me and other authors and readers by calling us immoral. I'm not quite sure how you can't see what you're doing is an insult but it is and very unprofessional for a mod in my personal opinion.

They are questionable and immoral to YOU. That is your and maybe even the opinion of others but that is all it is. Not a fact.

Thank you for the information on publishing circles, its very important to know these things. But the argument here is what we as readers feel about RPS, not about things we can not control whether it be publishing circles or the continued writing and reading of RPS. Gratefully the areas where I read and write are not that close minded as the places you mentioned.



Louise certainly doesn't need me to defend her, but she did not call you immoral. She merely reported that in publishing circles, real-person fiction is widely judged to be immoral at worst. That's not the same thing.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #152 on: February 05, 2008, 01:22:55 pm »
We all have our opinions here. If I feel I was personally attacked, then my feelings are valid. You are allowed to disagree but I have the final say on what my feelings are. Even in your statement you are insulting me and other authors and readers by calling us immoral. I'm not quite sure how you can't see what you're doing is an insult but it is and very unprofessional for a mod in my personal opinion.

They are questionable and immoral to YOU. That is your and maybe even the opinion of others but that is all it is. Not a fact.

Thank you for the information on publishing circles, its very important to know these things. But the argument here is what we as readers feel about RPS, not about things we can not control whether it be publishing circles or the continued writing and reading of RPS. Gratefully the areas where I read and write are not that close minded as the places you mentioned.



if you feel the need to talk about a disagreement on this forum, please bring it to private message with the person you feel offended by.  Our stance on Bettermost is to allow disagreeing opinions, and if you feel  upset by them you are welcome to bring it up with the person, however, disagreements of a personal nature are not meant for the public discussion board.   I suggest if you feel insulted to steer away from or ignore those messages that offend you.

However, the messages that are allowed to stand here do not meet our criteria for "personal attack."  To clarify, "RPS is insulting to the family of Heath Ledger" is not a personal attack.  Claiming that it is doesn't make it a personal attack.  And being offended by it does not make it one either.  But you are welcome to share your feelings in PM with anyone with whom you disagree in order to work out a problem.  I should point out as well that personal attacks are also not allowed in private messages and members can report them.

I ask everyone on this thread to steer back to the topic and to close the discussion of feelings of attack.  No one is under attack here - we are sharing our opinions on stories.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #153 on: February 05, 2008, 01:23:53 pm »
Louise certainly doesn't need me to defend her, but she did not call you immoral. She merely reported that in publishing circles, real-person fiction is widely judged to be immoral at worst. That's not the same thing.

that is exactly my point, Jeff, thank you!
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #154 on: February 05, 2008, 02:32:21 pm »
that is exactly my point, Jeff, thank you!

' Welcome!  :)
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Offline RouxB

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #155 on: February 06, 2008, 03:06:47 am »
For the record Roux, I have NEVER said anyone is immoral for continuing to write RPS about Heath, I have merely said that IMO it is wrong, now that he has died. And yes I do think it,s disrespctful, I,ve said it before and I,ll say it again. We are all entitled to our opinions and mine is that continuing to write RPS about Heath in sexual situations now that he has died is wrong, and it won,t change. No maybe Michelle and Heaths family will never read RPS about their son, maybe they,ve never heard of it, I don,t know. It,s simply the principal of the thing. I can,t stop writers writing about Heath having sex, even though he,s dead now, sadly that is beyond my control, but I sure as hell don,t have to read it and I won,t. I stand by everything I have said, and if some people don,t like it then thats, just too bad I,m afraid.
oint

Souxi-it seems from your post that you may be missing the point of mine. First and most emphatically, I didn't say you called anyone immoral. I didn't suggest that you (or anyone) are not entitled to your own opinion nor did I suggest that you change your opinion. I don't have trouble with your opinion about RPS. You clearly feel very strongly about it and I completely support your decision to remove it from your life.  I support your right to choose what is best for you just as I support any other person's right to make choices that are approprpriate for him/her-which was my point.


 

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #156 on: February 06, 2008, 09:30:09 am »
They are questionable and immoral to YOU [Louise]. That is your and maybe even the opinion of others but that is all it is. Not a fact.

No, actually RPS is questionable in more than one venue. Not even to get into publishing, there were BBM-related forums where they were not discussed, and newsletters were they were not reviewed, well before Heath's passing.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 09:39:31 am by MaineWriter »

Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #157 on: February 06, 2008, 10:45:44 am »
No, actually RPS is questionable in more than one venue. Not even to get into publishing, there were BBM-related forums where they were not discussed, and newsletters were they were not reviewed, well before Heath's passing.

And that is still the opinion of those people and nothing more.
Proud Supporter, Writer, and Reader of RPS

Offline louisev

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #158 on: February 06, 2008, 12:00:07 pm »
And that is still the opinion of those people and nothing more.

When policies are written in forums to prevent posting of RPS, that is a strong indication that it is not well accepted in the fandom.  Even where it is permitted, i.e. Davecullen.com, it is not allowed to be discussed except in euphemism and never discussed or advertised outside of the private areas of the forum.    More than individual opinion is at work here - there is a far more widespread disapproval, and the reasons for it are much the same as the reasons cited by so many here.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline blacktears

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #159 on: February 06, 2008, 12:05:19 pm »
When policies are written in forums to prevent posting of RPS, that is a strong indication that it is not well accepted in the fandom.  Even where it is permitted, i.e. Davecullen.com, it is not allowed to be discussed except in euphemism and never discussed or advertised outside of the private areas of the forum.    More than individual opinion is at work here - there is a far more widespread disapproval, and the reasons for it are much the same as the reasons cited by so many here.

Yes and it is still an opinion no matter if 1 person believes it is wrong or 1 million.

Proud Supporter, Writer, and Reader of RPS

Offline souxi

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #160 on: February 06, 2008, 12:23:16 pm »
Well after just reading the breaking news about the results of Heaths autopsy, I honestly do not understand how ANYONE now, could possibly sit down and write RPS about Heath now, I really don,t. His family and friends are griefstricken beyond belief. He hasn,t even been buried yet, and you want to sit and write RPS about him? Or are you planning on waiting until he,s actually been buried and that will make it allright? I don,t know how you can live with yourself. In my opinion that is disrespectful beyond belief.

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Open Discussion of RPS Stories in Light of Heath's Death
« Reply #161 on: February 06, 2008, 12:47:02 pm »
Given the news we have just learned about the circumstances of Heath's death, I am going to lock this thread to end this discussion at this time.

Thanks.

Leslie
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