Is It Time For the US To Change Its Gun Laws?

[David In Indy]

CNN is now reporting 5 dead and 17 injured in today's shooting at a DeKalb, Illinois university when a gunman entered a lecture hall and began spraying the students with bullets.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/14/university.shooting/index.html

Within the past 30 days, here in the US 3 were left dead at a technical college in Baton Rouge, Louisiana... 1 is critically injured during a school shooting in Memphis, Tennessee..... a 15 year old was shot at a California middle school.... 5 dead and 2 injured when a gunman enters a City Council meeting in Kirkwood, Missouri.... 5 women are shot and killed after a gunman open fires inside a women's clothing store in Tinley Park (Chicago) Illinois.

Just two months earlier, on December 5, 2007, a teen gunman walks into a Omaha, Nebraska mall and open fires, killing nine people before turning the gun on himself...... On December 9, 2007 a gunman shoots and kills 2 people at a Christian youth center in Arvada, Colorado before escaping and driving more than 50 miles to a church in Colorado Springs, Colorado where he killed an additional 2 people on the church parking lot. A church security guard killed the gunman with a shot to his head.

And who could forget last year's Virginia Tech shooting which left 33 dead and 29 injured..... or who could forget the Amish School house shooting when a gunman burst into a one room school shooting and killing 5 young girls?

I just finished reading an article over at BBC where a British reader left a comment asking "How many more Americans are going to die before America does something about guns?"

Good question.


 

[David In Indy]

Oh, I forgot to mention I voted "Yes".

[injest]

yep

[brokeplex]

This is a difficult time when so many have been killed by someone unknown, crazy or not, we just don't know all of the details as of now.

But, in a similar incident last year at a school in WV, several students went out to their trucks and grabbed their guns, turned them on the perp, and held him until the police FINALLY arrived. This saved many lives, because the students themselves could protect themselves.

When we create gun free zones in schools, we let the perp know in advance that he will find no guns there to stop him. If someone pulls a gun on you and wants you dead, and you have no gun, then you are dead. Under the same scenario, if you have a gun, then maybe you are not dead.

This week a paralyzed lady was trapped in her house, the house caught on fire, she called 9/11, she was put on hold over and over again, she died in the blaze. I have listened to the 911 tapes played on the radio, it is very sad.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and sometimes they just put you on hold.

DL is teaching me how to handle a gun, for the first time in my life I want to learn how to use one.

[delalluvia]

Unfortunately, the U.S. is not like European countries.  Our borders are fluid,we have vast areas of open country. 

I'm not sure what the government could do even if it wanted to do something.

Yes, they can outlaw the sale of handguns.

That would do nothing for the millions of handguns already in circulation and owned by 10s of thousands if not millions of people.

The authorities could ask Americans to give their guns up to local authorities, but that's pretty much it.  Those who do not want to surrender their weapons can't be made to.

What are they going to do?  A house to house search?  The government neither has the time, personnel nor the budget to do something like that. 

[David In Indy]

I appreciate your comments Brokeplex and I was hoping you would chime in.  

I keep think about other countries though, such as the European countries. They have very strict gun control laws and we rarely hear about these types of atrocities happening over there. Even here in North America - Canada has strict laws too, I believe. When was the last time we heard about a shooting up there? One comes to my mind, the incident in Alberta last summer.

I keep thinking about that. Something needs to change, somehow, because these shootings seem to be on the rise, and this little ol' Hoosier boy is getting kind of scared.  

[louisev]

the answer is not arming the populace: the answer is disarming it.  And it was done in Canada by offering bounties for weapons: the more you turn in, the more money you get for turning them in.  Strict gun control WORKS, and it has been proven in Britain, in Canada, and in Australia - but it took a massacre at Port Arthur to do it in Australia because the population felt they had a right 'to defend themselves.'

But I imagine strict gun control won't happen in the USA till long after gays are allowed to marry ... so, a very long time.

[David In Indy]

Hi Del! It looks like we posted at the same time.

Regarding your comment about the European countries, I have been reading countless online European newspapers and other media, and one thing has become clear to me - Europe is quite porous. Ever since the Schengen Agreement (now observed by 25 countries I believe) there are many pockets and cubby holes for hoodlums to sneak through. Go read the BBC sometime. They have been having many "Have Your Say" conversations about it. Many Europeans are concerned about it. But I don't hear them discussing guns!

Somehow, I don't think guns are the answer and I really don't know what we can do about it. These shooting are awful though. We need to figure something out or it will continue to get worse around here.

[delalluvia]

the answer is not arming the populace: the answer is disarming it.  And it was done in Canada by offering bounties for weapons: the more you turn in, the more money you get for turning them in.  Strict gun control WORKS, and it has been proven in Britain, in Canada, and in Australia - but it took a massacre at Port Arthur to do it in Australia because the population felt they had a right 'to defend themselves.'

But I imagine strict gun control won't happen in the USA till long after gays are allowed to marry ... so, a very long time.

Well, that works for people who need money badly.  I don't need the money badly - it certainly won't be what the gun is worth - so neither I nor my friends who own multiple guns and gun collections would be tempted by bounty offering.  And of course the professional criminals might just like to turn theirs in, get money and turn right around and buy more illegally from across the border.

Hi Atreyu,

I'm sure European countries have pockets and cubbyholes for the criminal element to cross borders.  The U.S. has thousands upon thousands of miles, completely uninhabited and unwatched and unguarded.

I put the gun control issue on the same level as back on 9-11 when people pointed out that Israel had very strict security on their aviation industry and why couldn't the U.S. be as safe?

The answer was - sheer volume.

Like air travel, the U.S.'s gun market is enormous and an extremely lucrative business.  The U.S. has granted its population quite a bit of leeway in gun ownership for centuries.  This is not something that can be brought under control easily or soon.  As Louise said, it will likely be generations before it's brought under control, if it even can be.

[brokeplex]

I appreciate your comments Brokeplex and I was hoping you would chime in.  

I keep think about other countries though, such as the European countries. They have very strict gun control laws and we rarely hear about these types of atrocities happening over there. Even here in North America - Canada has strict laws too, I believe. When was the last time we heard about a shooting up there? One comes to my mind, the incident in Alberta last summer.

I keep thinking about that. Something needs to change, somehow, because these shootings seem to be on the rise, and this little ol' Hoosier boy is getting kind of scared.  

Well, we agree on the fear component in this discussion. I am also afraid of a future that will probably contain psycho killers and terrorists.

If I were convinced that confiscating all firearms, and that would have to include hunting rifles, the man in IL apparently killed with a shot gun, could be done in a timely and peaceful manner, and that such confiscation would eliminate incidents that we now see in IL, and earlier in WV, and VA, well then I would be all in favor of rapid confiscation. No exceptions, just law enforcement and the military would be allowed to carry firearms.

I am a conservative, but I am not a 2nd Amendment conservative. I think most of the NRA is a bit wacky in fact. I can't make an argument that 2nd amendment protections to the right to bear arms are viable in today's world. My opinion is that the 2nd amendment was written and approved by those at the constitutional convention who favored the arming of all state militias as an abettment to easy secession from the union, if that was ever needed. State militias were each states's defense against a tyrannical central government, go look at the debates over the 2nd amendment during the that time frame and you will see much discussion about whether the US was a voluntary association of sovereign states, to be broken up at will, or an integral union. This discussion was finally and completely answered in the Civil War, the Confederacy taking the right to secession and arming of state militia's seriously decided to secede. Pres Lincoln had other ideas, saying "The Constitution is not a suicide pact".

That should have been the end of 2nd Amendment discussions, it was a dead letter. Until the NRA, gave it new life.

I can't agree with gun free zones or gun control because that just won't work. We just can't get all the guns out of the hands of those who wish to kill. And, there will always be crazies who wish to kill some of us. I would rather have the option of defense other than my wit and charm. Also, schools need to be able to intervene in the lives of those who exhibit crazy behavior, the guy who shot up Virginia Tech was crying out for help. Over and over again we see behavioral patterns in these killers that alert us that they may be dangerous. I'd rather be safe than sorry and intervene in their lives.  

[David In Indy]

It just seems to me if Australia did it, we can do it too. Whether one is pro guns or anti guns, I think nearly every American will agree SOMETHING needs to be done about this. There is no doubt these shootings are on the rise in this country. The question is, what do we do about it?

[David In Indy]

Well, we agree on the fear component in this discussion. I am also afraid of a future that will probably contain psycho killers and terrorists.

If I were convinced that confiscating all firearms, and that would have to include hunting rifles, the man in IL apparently killed with a shot gun, could be done in a timely and peaceful manner, and that such confiscation would eliminate incidents that we now see in IL, and earlier in WV, and VA, well then I would be all in favor of rapid confiscation. No exceptions, just law enforcement and the military would be allowed to carry firearms.

I am a conservative, but I am not a 2nd Amendment conservative. I think most of the NRA is a bit wacky in fact. I can't make an argument that 2nd amendment protections to the right to bear arms are viable in today's world. My opinion is that the 2nd amendment was written and approved by those at the constitutional convention who favored the arming of all state militias as an abettment to easy secession from the union, if that was ever needed. State militias were each states's defense against a tyrannical central government, go look at the debates over the 2nd amendment during the that time frame and you will see much discussion about whether the US was a voluntary association of sovereign states, to be broken up at will, or an integral union. This discussion was finally and completely answered in the Civil War, the Confederacy taking the right to secession and arming of state militia's seriously decided to secede. Pres Lincoln had other ideas, saying "The Constitution is not a suicide pact".

That should have been the end of 2nd Amendment discussions, it was a dead letter. Until the NRA, gave it new life.

I can't agree with gun free zones or gun control because that just won't work. We just can't get all the guns out of the hands of those who wish to kill. And, there will always be crazies who wish to kill some of us. I would rather have the option of defense other than my wit and charm. Also, schools need to be able to intervene in the lives of those who exhibit crazy behavior, the guy who shot up Virginia Tech was crying out for help. Over and over again we see behavioral patterns in these killers that alert us that they may be dangerous. I'd rather be safe than sorry and intervene in their lives.  

Well I agree with 90 percent of what you said. And yes, the NRA is a total nutcase.

The part I have issue with your comments about owning a gun for self protection. While I do feel this is a good idea in theory, I am not at all comfortable with the idea of any Tom, Dick or Harry walking around with a gun in his pocket. It makes me nervous. They did a bust on a gun shop here in Indianapolis last year. The owner was selling guns without doing any background checks!! I couldn't believe it. They closed the store but I wonder how many other gun stores are doing this sort of thing as well?

[delalluvia]

It just seems to me if Australia did it, we can do it too

Australia — Population: 20,434,176 (July 2007 est.)
United States — Population: 301,139,947 (July 2007 est.)

Whether one is pro guns or anti guns, I think nearly every American will agree SOMETHING needs to be done about this. There is no doubt these shootings are on the rise in this country. The question is, what do we do about it?

I don't know what we could do that would actually accomplish what people who want gun control want.  When the Columbine thing happened, some of our local schools down here reassured parents that the same couldn't happen in their schools because they had a large security guard staff and metal detectors at each door.

I'm not sure outlawing handguns and turning every possible place into a Fort Knox is a viable solution.

[forsythia12]

well, let me say firstly, i live in canada, and our gun laws are absolutely ridiculous.  there were several gun shootings in the city where i grew up,(vancouver, bc)  right now i live in a remote little city full of farms and forests, and outdoor life.  when i lived in the city, guns meant something else.  they meant to do harm to others.  out here, guns are for pleasure in target practice, skeet shooting, hunting, personal protection....etc...
i have been out with friends learning gun safety, shooting targets, and it's really fun.  i am studying now to get my firearms liscense, and i'm excited about it. .....but, the people in parliment who know nothing about guns have introduced absurd gun laws, so much so that a person who owns a handgun cannot use it, transport it, or even clean the freaking thing.  so, in a nut shell, freaks who take guns to schools have set the bar for new legislation, and now everyone has to pay...
not to mention, guns used in crimes ARE NOT REGISTERED GUNS.  they are stolen guns.
i could go on and on and on and on about our gun laws, but, all in all......they don't work.  they're pathetic.  my husband and i, and friends of ours, who are firearm enthusiasts, have discussed many times what they need to do, but we all agree tougher laws don't help.  ......or at least, the types of laws canada has introduced thus far are not fixing the problem.  i don't know what the answer is, but canada is not the place to look.  there are several shootings here.  so far, in 2008, vancouver has had 8 murders  due to gun violence, and that's just one city...so yes, it does happen here despite our laws.

and about the comments about police officers.  yes, i understand you're frustration when stories about time delays have costed lives, but my husband is a cop and i'll tell you first hand that they do the best they can everyday they put their lives on the line for all of us.

in meyerthorpe alberta a few years back we lost four rcmp members due to a psycho attacked them with a rifle.

our laws did not help those men.

as the saying goes....guns don't kill people....people do.
right now, our justice system is the problem.  no one gets punished in this country anymore.  our judges are way too easy on convicted criminals, and it makes me sick to see what people get away with.
 
a few years ago, a gas station attendant tried to stop a car who was doing a 'gas and dash', and while trying to stop the car, he got run over, and the gas theives dragged him under the car for 8 blocks until there was nothing left of the poor boys body.  
the driver and passenger got about 4 years or something in prision.
now, instead of punishing the criminals properly, we now have a pre-pay policy when we buy gas.  it's ridiculous.  you go in, guess how much gas you need, pay, then they turn on the pumps and some attendant pumps the exact amount you paid for, and not a penny more.
so now, we are all paying because this is such a hassle...especially if you guess the wrong amount, or need a little more than expected.
 if someone is going to steal gas, they're going to steal gas...so now, the criminal is going to go inside the store, point a gun at the clerk and tell him to turn on the pumps...and i'll tell you now, more deaths are going to happen.

[brokeplex]

Well I agree with 90 percent of what you said. And yes, the NRA is a total nutcase.

The part I have issue with your comments about owning a gun for self protection. While I do feel this is a good idea in theory, I am not at all comfortable with the idea of any Tom, Dick or Harry walking around with a gun in his pocket. It makes me nervous. They did a bust on a gun shop here in Indianapolis last year. The owner was selling guns without doing any background checks!! I couldn't believe it. They closed the store but I wonder how many other gun stores are doing this sort of thing as well?

 Sellling guns without the background checks is and should be treated as a serious felony. The fact is that right now "Tom" and his brothers and sisters are walking around packing. That is the fact of life in the US. How do we stop the crazies from killing the rest of us? That seems to me the only serious discussion we can have about these killings, and I mean that comment with no disrespect to those who disagree with me. The truth is that it is just not socially or politically possible to get the type of gun control you see in other societies implemented here. We should talk about better screenings for those who might go postal, we should talk about more security protection in public places.

A few weeks ago, a crazy man attempted to invade and shoot up a large mega church somewhere in the US (I'll find the link later), the church had an armed and trained security guard who took that sucker down with her own gun. That brave woman is my hero because she saved lives.

[David In Indy]

well, let me say firstly, i live in canada, and our gun laws are absolutely ridiculous.  there were several gun shootings in the city where i grew up,(vancouver, bc)  right now i live in a remote little city full of farms and forests, and outdoor life.  when i lived in the city, guns meant something else.  they meant to do harm to others.  out here, guns are for pleasure in target practice, skeet shooting, hunting, personal protection....etc...
i have been out with friends learning gun safety, shooting targets, and it's really fun.  i am studying now to get my firearms liscense, and i'm excited about it. .....but, the people in parliment who know nothing about guns have introduced absurd gun laws, so much so that a person who owns a handgun cannot use it, transport it, or even clean the freaking thing.  so, in a nut shell, freaks who take guns to schools have set the bar for new legislation, and now everyone has to pay...
not to mention, guns used in crimes ARE NOT REGISTERED GUNS.  they are stolen guns.
i could go on and on and on and on about our gun laws, but, all in all......they don't work.  they're pathetic.  my husband and i, and friends of ours, who are firearm enthusiasts, have discussed many times what they need to do, but we all agree tougher laws don't help.  ......or at least, the types of laws canada has introduced thus far are not fixing the problem.  i don't know what the answer is, but canada is not the place to look.  there are several shootings here.  so far, in 2008, vancouver has had 8 murders  due to gun violence, and that's just one city...so yes, it does happen here despite our laws.

and about the comments about police officers.  yes, i understand you're frustration when stories about time delays have costed lives, but my husband is a cop and i'll tell you first hand that they do the best they can everyday they put their lives on the line for all of us.

in meyerthorpe alberta a few years back we lost four rcmp members due to a psycho attacked them with a rifle.

our laws did not help those men.

as the saying goes....guns don't kill people....people do.
right now, our justice system is the problem.  no one gets punished in this country anymore.  our judges are way too easy on convicted criminals, and it makes me sick to see what people get away with.
 
a few years ago, a gas station attendant tried to stop a car who was doing a 'gas and dash', and while trying to stop the car, he got run over, and the gas theives dragged him under the car for 8 blocks until there was nothing left of the poor boys body.  
the driver and passenger got about 4 years or something in prision.
now, instead of punishing the criminals properly, we now have a pre-pay policy when we buy gas.  it's ridiculous.  you go in, guess how much gas you need, pay, then they turn on the pumps and some attendant pumps the exact amount you paid for, and not a penny more.
so now, we are all paying because this is such a hassle...especially if you guess the wrong amount, or need a little more than expected.
 if someone is going to steal gas, they're going to steal gas...so now, the criminal is going to go inside the store, point a gun at the clerk and tell him to turn on the pumps...and i'll tell you now, more deaths are going to happen.

Hi Forsythia!! Thanks for posting your comments and ideas! We appreciate it. It sounds like you are pro guns, which is absolutely fine.

I'd love to hear your ideas as a Canadian as to what we here in the US could do in order to help alleviate the increase in shootings inside our country. I'd very much value your comments.

Oh! By the way, anyone is welcome to post in this thread. I'd love to hear from some of our non American brokies about this. Maybe some of the things you are doing in your countries could help us here in the US.

[forsythia12]

well, i guess i'm pro guns.  like i said in my post, being in this town has shown me another side to guns that i never knew before.  i used to hate them.
so i'm pro gun, if the guns are owned and operated by the right people, for the right reasons.
i'm pro gun safety, knowledge, and proper use of one.
i don't hunt, but i'm not anti-hunt either.
i'm pro rights...and i hate it when good peple, have to pay due to some sort of  "blanket solution " that doesn't solve anything.
i'll keep checking in, and posting on this thread.  my friends and husband have some good ideas, so i'll pass those ideas on here.

[David In Indy]

well, i guess i'm pro guns.  like i said in my post, being in this town has shown me another side to guns that i never knew before.  i used to hate them.
so i'm pro gun, if the guns are owned and operated by the right people, for the right reasons.
i'm pro gun safety, knowledge, and proper use of one.
i don't hunt, but i'm not anti-hunt either.
i'm pro rights...and i hate it when good peple, have to pay due to some sort of  "blanket solution " that doesn't solve anything.
i'll keep checking in, and posting on this thread.  my friends and husband have some good ideas, so i'll pass those ideas on here.

Thanks! We'd love to hear their opinions too!

And thank you for taking the time to offer your opinions as well.

so i'm pro gun, if the guns are owned and operated by the right people, for the right reasons.

I think that is the key to the whole problem right there. The question is HOW do we do it?

[brokeplex]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=501206&in_page_id=1811

here is the link to the story about the heroic security guard that stopped a massacre in the Colorado Megachurch. I am afraid that this is the wave of the future, we will have to protect ourselves with armed guards and pack our own.

[forsythia12]

well, in the town i'm currently living in, the weapon of choice is a HAMMER.  yes, a hammer.  domestic violence runs wild here, due to alcohol abuse and they choose a hammer because most of these individuals  have a criminal record, so they don't have guns.
so should we have stricter hammer laws?
should hammers be registered?
background checks be done at your local home depot before you can legally purchase a hammer?
obviously not because then EVERYONE would have to pay because some thugs decided to misuse their hammers...which is what is happening with guns now.
the point is, guns are not the problem....the lack of penalties is.  criminals are not punished anymore.
criminals are going to do what they're going to do whether they have access to a gun or not....afterall, they can use a hammer to get the job done if they wanted.
stiffer penalties is where we need to look.

and as far as packing our own guns....well, that's not the solution either.  i mean cops carry loaded guns ready to go everyday , and yet they get shot all the time.
criminals don't engage in fair 'draws' like the old west on the count of three.  they blow you away without warning, before you can defend yourself, and once they do, they face very soft and fluffy consequences...so where's the deterant?

[louisev]

The proof in the pudding that strict gun control reduces gun related injury and death is the comparison between Vancouver BC and Seattle, Washington.  In the same time one year time period, these two cities, comparable both in population and demographics reported the following gun related crimes resulting in injury:

Vancouver:  1
Seattle:  67

We can reduce gun related crimes by reduce the number of guns and gun registrations, and that is a no brainer.  I don't believe anyone has the idea that gun control is going to eliminate all shootings - people will still be able to get them illegally, they do in Canada, Britain, and in Australia.  But in the US it is falling-off-a-log simple to get any number of high power weapons - and they do.  Limit the gun registrations - and limit the number of deaths from shootings. It really is that simple.

When I cited the facts about Seattle and Vancouver to some gun-lovers in Florida a few years back, the response I got from the Floridians made my jaw drop: they said that there are less shootings in Canada because "Canadians are less violent than Americans."  Clearly they don't watch hockey.

[moremojo]

I am a strict and reverent interpreter of the U.S. Constitution, and see little in the language of the Second Amendment to dissuade me from believing that this cornerstone of national law guarantees the rights of American citizens to keep and bear firearms.

However, I am extremely ambivalent about guns (do not own one myself), and am well aware of how much they contribute to the violence that does occur in our society. I very much am in favor of reexamining our laws and national conscience, and amending the Constitution to place reasonable restrictions on gun ownership and use, reflecting the current realities of our society, conditions that our founding fathers could probably not have imagined when they enacted and ratified the Bill of Rights. But I am very much against judges and other comparable authorities legislating the Second Amendment out of existence through judicial fiat.

[underdown]

It just seems to me if Australia did it, we can do it too. Whether one is pro guns or anti guns, I think nearly every American will agree SOMETHING needs to be done about this. There is no doubt these shootings are on the rise in this country. The question is, what do we do about it?

The same questions and argument for and against gun control were raised in Australia when we considered it.
The debate was long and furious, especially coming from the 'gun lobby' as it was called (and still exists), mainly sporting shooters.
There was even a political party formed to contest seats in parliament, called 'The Shooters Party'.
Eventually, the gun control laws went ahead, the Government paid out huge sums in the 'buy back' scheme and destroyed mountains of them.
The new law allowed farmers to own guns, as they lobbied that they needed them to humanely put down animals. Anyone who legitimately needed a gun in their work (such as pest control officers - and that included kangaroo shooters) could apply for a licence. Members of recognised gun clubs, and certain properly trained cash security guards, can have a licence.
In short, the only people who can't legally own a gun, now, in Australia are those who don't have a legitimate reason.
It took a quite a while for the ruckus to settle down, but now gun control is generally considered a good thing. After all, if someone doesn't have a legitimate, lawful reason to own a gun, what would they do with it? Hold up a bank? Shoot the wildlife? Shoot school students? Be a 'tough' guy?
We hear all too often of shootings in the US, and wonder why it is still happening, over and over; particularly in schools. We are horrified by it, and many here still remember a rare mass shooting of our own some years ago (a friend of mine lost his sister and nephew in that attack). Australians are very sensitive to the memory of that, and shudder every time they hear of a shooting in the US, because of the fear that some copycat here will get hold of a gun.
What would it really cost? It would only employ people who pay taxes and circulate the money.
People in the US must make the decision one day. But it's rather like converting from feet and inches to metric measure. That was hard, too, but well worth the effort. Unfortunately, yes, there are still some shootings in Australia, but nothing like the carnage and mass murder we read about happening in the US.

[souxi]

The proof in the pudding that strict gun control reduces gun related injury and death is the comparison between Vancouver BC and Seattle, Washington.  In the same time one year time period, these two cities, comparable both in population and demographics reported the following gun related crimes resulting in injury:

Vancouver:  1
Seattle:  67

We can reduce gun related crimes by reduce the number of guns and gun registrations, and that is a no brainer.  I don't believe anyone has the idea that gun control is going to eliminate all shootings - people will still be able to get them illegally, they do in Canada, Britain, and in Australia.  But in the US it is falling-off-a-log simple to get any number of high power weapons - and they do.  Limit the gun registrations - and limit the number of deaths from shootings. It really is that simple.

When I cited the facts about Seattle and Vancouver to some gun-lovers in Florida a few years back, the response I got from the Floridians made my jaw drop: they said that there are less shootings in Canada because "Canadians are less violent than Americans."  Clearly they don't watch hockey.

I know nothing about gun laws in the US, but your right, people CAN and do get hold of guns illegally. Over here in the UK I often watch a programe on Living TV called Ross Kemp on gangs. In some of the cities in the US, gang violence is horrific and for many people, it,s just a way of life. Some of the arms caches these gangs have is fightening. They have allsorts of guns,and they aint afraid to use them. Scary.

[forsythia12]

here is a really good essay on the comparison of gun violence between candada, u.s., and the u.k.
it does back up the theory that the gun laws in canada have had a profound effect on the reduction in gun crimes, and it was quite informative; however, our canadian government still want stricter laws passed, and even a hand gun ban altogether.  in canada, we tend to blame everything but the person responsible, and rarely are the held completely accountable for their actions.  instead, we take away the temptations, the weapons, and the means in which the criminal used to commit the crime...but we don't punish him.  our justice system pampers the criminals, and society as a whole has to pay, and our rights are adjusted or removed.  so, although we have had success in stricter gun laws, as well as other factors, i do think there comes a point when enough is enough. 
here is the link to the essay, with many interesting stats.




http://www.cyberessays.com/Politics/100.htm

[brokeplex]

OK, those who wish to change US laws to more closely reflect Canadian laws or Australian laws, tell me how you would do this? I challenge you.

It easy to say: "this needs to be done" or "that must be changed". But it is much harder to visualize a realistic plan to accomplish those goals.

If making gun control laws in the US as tight as they are in the UK would make all US citizens safer, I'd be in favor of it today. Just offering statistics comparing a city in the US with a city in another country with an entirely different set of laws, doesn't make sense to me. If a Canadian city has less violent crime, you can not logically say that is just because of that one factor, it is all of the factors which make Canadian cities, laws, and customs different than US cities.

So, those who wish to change US gun laws, knock yourself out. I'll even make it easier for you. Lets assume the 2nd amendment is a dead letter, now that is a big assumption as Moremojo is right, under the present interpretation of the 2nd amendment, it will be very difficult to change US laws into facsimiles of Canadian laws on the subject of the "right to bear arms".

But for the sake of this argument, assume that the 2nd amendment is dead. Now tell me how you are going to get all of those millions of guns out of the hands of private citizens without armed rebellion. And, once you do that, how can you be certain that criminals won't be able to get guns anyway.

I think that we all know about the illegal arms trade around the world?

So, go for it, convince me.

[Jeff Wrangler]

But, in a similar incident last year at a school in WV, several students went out to their trucks and grabbed their guns, turned them on the perp, and held him until the police FINALLY arrived. This saved many lives, because the students themselves could protect themselves.

The frontier was declared closed in 1890. I am appalled to live in a country where (I presume) high school students take weapons to school in their vehicles.

Personally, I believe the present interpretation of the Second Amendment is unhistorical, and--is it Scalia who believes in interpreting the Constitution as the writers supposedly intended?--more attention in interpretation needs to be paid to conditions in the fledgling United States when the Amendment was written. I do not believe the amendment even as it is written prohibits any government, federal, state, or local, from strictly regulating gun ownership and sales.

I don't suppose we can do much about the guns that are already out there, but we need to start somewhere.

As an aside, the murder rate in Philadelphia has reached epidemic proportions. The city is fighting with the rest of Pennsylvania over being given the ability to do something about guns within the city borders. On the one hand, I have to admit that I am perfectly willing for drug dealers and other criminals to shoot each other, but we are having too many innocent bystanders, including small children, shot and killed by gang-bangers who can't hit the side of a barn. And then there is the issue of little kids who find daddy's handgun in his coat pocket and accidentally kill themselves.

Although my mother would not allow my dad to turn me into a hunter, I grew up around gun people, and I grew up playing with toy rifles. Rifles don't scare me. I am perfectly comfortable around long guns. Handguns worry me. And I don't believe that ordinary citizens need to own automatic weapons.