Author Topic: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?  (Read 11417 times)

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2008, 02:28:13 pm »
I could never see Ennis moving to Texas, Sandy.  The post-divorce reunion scene (and to a lesser extent, this scene) pretty much make it clear that no extenuating circumstances would have moved Ennis past his fear.


You're right Chrissi; Ennis opens up in an unprecedented way here.  I think Jack is kind of thrown for a loop by this, so he replies with wide-eyed silences and flat little fibs.  Then he proposes a simple solution, which (as Katie pointed out) sounds next to impossible to Ennis.

It's been written that heterosexual couples also tend to (mis)communicate this way:  a woman will lay out open-ended questions; a man will quickly present a solution. Which is disappointing to the woman, b/c she wanted to fully discuss her feelings and get some catharsis and empathy, while the man has immediately jumped into problem-solving mode.  [This is of course based on generalizations; there are variations to this in real life; your mileage may vary, etc.]

Ennis' frustration with this comes out in his rather comical "You're a real thinker there, Jack!"  Because Jack has indeed not thought through all the issues that would come with a move not the least of which is Ennis' pride, as you pointed out, Brokeplex.


All of this is not to say that Jack should or could have intuited all this and come up with perfectly-phrased, healing words.  An overriding hardship in the tale is that neither is emotionally or verbally equipped to deal with each other's issues here; they're at their best when circumstances as back on Brokeback in '63 allowed for snuggling, riding, light conversation and comfortable silence.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 03:37:12 am by LauraGigs »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2008, 02:35:52 pm »
Um, it was a bucket floating down the river...if you want to know more about the buckets, go here please!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0/all.html



Heya Sister Mod,

I just bumped the buckets and coffeepots thread.  ;D


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Offline nakymaton

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2008, 02:47:16 pm »
Another thought, regarding the "move to Texas" line:

Remember the blue parka scene, earlier in the movie? Lureen asked why Ennis never came down to Texas. In the ""move to Texas" scene, Jack mentions Ennis coming down to Texas after Ennis asks about Lureen.

Makes me wonder if there wasn't some kind of subconscious connection going on in Jack's head. An odd subconscious connection - I mean, would Lureen have invited Ennis to Texas if she knew? (Not that it was an invitation, but that's the only other time anyone mentions Ennis going to Texas. I've thought that Ennis going to Texas was pretty far-fetched - I mean, this is the guy who never travels further than around the coffee pot looking for its handle-- speaking of coffee pot symbolism!)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2008, 02:58:16 pm »
Yeah, I think Jack may be growing weary of doing *all* the traveling by the time of the "maybe Texas" scene.

There's a pragmatic aspect to his suggestion.

I don't think Jack would worry at all about what Lureen would think. 


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2008, 03:45:09 pm »
I wonder how Ennis would have reacted if Jack had said, "No, it's not normal-normal is with you", "yes, she suspects there's someone else" and "no, I don't think anyone who sees me automatically knows". 

Would Ennis have moved to Texas?

No. Like Laura and Mel, I think there was no way Ennis had moved to Texas. His girls were not only a welcome excuse (albeit he used them as such), they were a significant reason Ennis never would have moved to Texas. Apart from his girls, Ennis was just - Ennis. All the travelling he done... like Mel already said.

I think no matter how Jack would have reacted, Ennis would not have moved to Texas. And also would not have agreed to "ranching up" with Jack in WY. At least not at this point of time.

But I do think things between them would have (or at least could have) gone better had Jack been able to take the chance Ennis offered him. The toll on their lifes and on their realtionship was not only caused by the times being separated but also by the fact they both didn't know what to make of it. They both didn't have the words to express themselves (and to be fair, for the most time neither the need for it).


Another thing I find interesting is Ennis's speech about Jack and Lureen adopting the girls, raining money from LD Newsome, herding sheep, etc. This thoughts didn't come from nothing. He said those things sarcastically to Jack because he was angry. But why did he exactly say these words? Why mentioning his girls? I think his choice of words shows two things: Ennis wished just as much as Jack for things to be different; he must have given their situation some thoughts (which is already proven by the questions he asked which started the conversation) and maybe even allowed himself some weird daydreams from time to time. Second, even in his wildest dreams it never occurred to him to abandon his daughters. Even the mere thought of moving to Texas (as absurd as it was to him) involved his girls also being in Texas.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2008, 03:58:32 pm »

But I do think things between them would have (or at least could have) gone better had Jack been able to take the chance Ennis offered him. The toll on their lifes and on their realtionship was not only caused by the times being separated but also by the fact they both didn't know what to make of it. They both didn't have the words to express themselves (and to be fair, for the most time neither the need for it).


Another thing I find interesting is Ennis's speech about Jack and Lureen adopting the girls, raining money from LD Newsome, herding sheep, etc. This thoughts didn't come from nothing. He said those things sarcastically to Jack because he was angry. But why did he exactly say these words? Why mentioning his girls? I think his choice of words shows two things: Ennis wished just as much as Jack for things to be different; he must have given their situation some thoughts (which is already proven by the questions he asked which started the conversation) and maybe even allowed himself some weird daydreams from time to time. Second, even in his wildest dreams it never occurred to him to abandon his daughters. Even the mere thought of moving to Texas (as absurd as it was to him) involved his girls also being in Texas.

Hi Chrissi,

I'm not sure I understand what chance Ennis was really offering Jack.  Sure, it was a chance to talk, but in terms of offering a new solution or idea to the way their relationship was organized... I don't think Ennis was offering much of a chance.

I think what you note here about Ennis's sarcastic remarks here is very good.  I think the metaphors he uses and the bizarre-hypothetical scenario he describes do reveal something about Ennis's own longings and frustrations about being separated from Jack.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Sandy

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2008, 04:01:09 pm »
I don't think he would have moved to Texas either.  That course of action would just not sit well with my understanding of Ennis.  I think that, even if Jack said he was going to move to the next town, Ennis would struggle to get up the courage to see him in the local pub once a month.  If only we could have seen what the next twenty years would have brought. 

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2008, 04:43:46 pm »
Hi Chrissi,

I'm not sure I understand what chance Ennis was really offering Jack.  Sure, it was a chance to talk, but in terms of offering a new solution or idea to the way their relationship was organized... I don't think Ennis was offering much of a chance.

Agreed. This is not what I meant to indicate. I meant first and foremost the chance to be honest to each other, honest in the sense of open. A chance to grow from the "Ain't queer - Me neither" pretending to "Sometimes I miss you so much" earlier than they did. I also don't mean some lovey-dovey confessions (urgh, alone the thought ... ::)), but some kind of mutual acknowlegment how difficult, frustrating and sh*tty the situation is. I think this alone would have helped.

In this scene, Ennis must have gotten the impression life is fine for Jack. All that misses to be perfect for Jack would be Ennis nearer to him to see him more often.


Quote
I think what you note here about Ennis's sarcastic remarks here is very good. 

Thank you  :)

Quote
I think the metaphors he uses and the bizarre-hypothetical scenario he describes do reveal something about Ennis's own longings and frustrations about being separated from Jack.

Yup. I always believed Ennis longs for them to be together permanently just as much as Jack did. And I think Jack was very wrong in the lake scene argument when he said  "But you didn't want it" (the sweet life) to Ennis. Ennis wanted it just as much. But he couldn't for the life of him figure out how, and also wasn't able to acknowledge it to Jack.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2008, 04:58:04 pm »

Yup. I always believed Ennis longs for them to be together permanently just as much as Jack did. And I think Jack was very wrong in the lake scene argument when he said  "But you didn't want it" (the sweet life) to Ennis. Ennis wanted it just as much. But he couldn't for the life of him figure out how, and also wasn't able to acknowledge it to Jack.


I agree... I also think Jack is wrong in saying that Ennis "didn't want it."  But, I think Ennis offers Jack very few clues over the years that he, in fact, does want it.  We, as outside spectators (more objective) have a better chance at analyzing Ennis's desires about that than Jack does (it seems to me).  I also think Jack is trying to be a little mean.  I think the "you didn't want it" is equivalent to some of the mean things Ennis says like "boys like you...", etc.  In a sense, they're both lashing out.

One question... in the story isn't the line "you wouldn't do it"... as opposed to "you didn't want it" in the film?  I'm at work and I don't have my story in front of me.  So, correct me if I'm wrong.  But, those two phrases seem very, very different (and may be a pretty significant alteration from story to screenplay).

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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2008, 05:34:48 pm »

One question... in the story isn't the line "you wouldn't do it"... as opposed to "you didn't want it" in the film?  I'm at work and I don't have my story in front of me.  So, correct me if I'm wrong.  But, those two phrases seem very, very different (and may be a pretty significant alteration from story to screenplay).

Little OT detour here (maybe we should make the lake scene also its own TOTW):
The line in the screenplay (STS book) is also "You wouldn't do it, Ennis", exactly the same as in the SS. But in the movie, it's "But you didn't want it, Ennis". I remember stumbling over this line from my first viewing on. I immediately thought 'You're wrong about this, Jack.' and still think it every time I see it.