As Easter nears, no Easter in Annie's story or the BM movie?? But??

[Artiste]

  As Easter nears, no Easter in Annie's story or the BM movie?? But?? 

Religion is mentioned....

And, isn't the story about Easter??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Why no Easter in the BM movie?

But it does in OTHER ways?

Hugs!

[Lynne]

You're right, Artiste, that we don't really see Easter in BBM.  We get Thanksgiving instead.  A lot of folks smarter than me have provided ample evidence that Jack can be seen as a Christ-like figure, whose death was necessary, to give Ennis life.  In that sense, it makes a lot of sense that BBM is an Easter story  - one of sacrifice and resurrection.

[Artiste]

Thanks Lynne!

Wow, that makes sense what you say!

Wonder if we could think too in another way:
that Ennis is sacrificed so Jack can live??

Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

I think it's important to note that both the holidays represented in BBM - the 4th of July and Thanksgiving- are nationalistic/specifically American holidays.  I think the decision to use patriotic-type holidays in the narrative may relate to the decision to make Jack and Ennis cowboys... in that one component of BBM has to do with re-confronting American myths and archetypes.

You're right, Artiste, that we don't really see Easter in BBM.  We get Thanksgiving instead.  A lot of folks smarter than me have provided ample evidence that Jack can be seen as a Christ-like figure, whose death was necessary, to give Ennis life.  In that sense, it makes a lot of sense that BBM is an Easter story  - one of sacrifice and resurrection.

I think this is very good Lynne.  BBM includes religious undertones in a pretty substantial way.  Maybe having religious holidays depicted would almost seem to be too much.

[Artiste]

Thanks atz!

Maybe having religious holidays depicted would almost seem to be too much.

...

To that, why?

Maybe because religions so far refuse gay men? Lesbians?

Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

I just wonder if the filmmakers didn't want to become too heavy or heavy-handed with religious metaphors/subtexts/content.  It's an underlying element of the film, but probably not meant to be too much of a dominant/ surface subject or issue.

[Marge_Innavera]

I think it's important to note that both the holidays represented in BBM - the 4th of July and Thanksgiving- are nationalistic/specifically American holidays.  I think the decision to use patriotic-type holidays in the narrative may relate to the decision to make Jack and Ennis cowboys... in that one component of BBM has to do with re-confronting American myths and archetypes.

Good point. The religious references are a bit more subtle, such as Ennis asking Jack what the Pentecost is -- just hours before their own "Pentecostal fire".   

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, the religious themes are somewhat understated, but they seem to run through the film at various levels.  I'm not at all personally religious, but I think the deployment of certain religious metaphors is really very evocative and effectively done in BBM.

My favorite (maybe) is the three crosses that signal the beginning of the film.. they're of course, really electrical wire posts that appear to the left in the screen as the semi-truck carrying Ennis pulls up in Signal.

Also, as Lynne indicates, there's a long, complex argument to be made about the idea that Jack is a "Christ-like" figure.  He is always the one leading Ennis (physically and visually... he's in front of the flock of sheep and even as they walk to the bar at the beginning... Jack is leading Ennis).  Also, Jack does "walk on water" so to speak (a literalization of the song he sings)  when they're on the way up to Brokeback and need to cross the stream.  Jack is the one seen walking through the water.  Etc.  There's also the idea of Jack as a "sacrificial lamb" (the seeming connection between the sheep killed by "predator loss" on Brokeback equated to both Jack and Earl) that may be seen as playing into this metaphor too.  Further, at the end... the idea that Jack is capable of comforting or reaching out to Ennis even after Jack's dead (i.e. through Ennis finding the shirts) seems to extend this concept.

And, the fact that Ennis and Jack are shepherds (even though we usually use the more modern phrase sheep herders or ranch hands) is of course loaded with possible religious subtext.

[Artiste]

Thanks atz, thansks marge!!

Very interesting are your posts!

I remember religious images with persons and sheep. In the BM movie, of course there are persons (Jack and Ennis) with sheep!!

Remember when Jack carries one sheep over his shoulders??

More?

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Maybe Easter is not that much a consideration in the BM movie, why?

Is it because it notes that our democratic countries are maybe becoming now islamic?

So that is a caution to us to keep it democratic?

Hugs!

[Lynne]

My favorite (maybe) is the three crosses that signal the beginning of the film.. they're of course, really electrical wire posts that appear to the left in the screen as the semi-truck carrying Ennis pulls up in Signal.

I think it's a curse born of lit classes for me to look for religious symbolism in 'important' literature...brainwashed for 4 effin years.

Actually, I like the three crosses at the beginning of the film quite a lot, but they were one of the few symbols I did not recognize on my own...I think I read about them here first.  If they represent the crosses on Cavalry - the death of Christ before the Resurrection, then they are likely the closest symbol in the movie to an Easter symbol.

My favorite (maybe) religious symbol is the scales representing judgment.  (And I'm not adverse to repeating myself on this point  .)

We see scales in the background of Monroe's grocery store when Alma is considering the state of her marriage with Ennis dumping the girls on her at work because of calving.  Considered with her questioning Ennis for taking off work at a moment's notice for fishing, we can see her turning to Monroe.

More important are the scales in Alma and Monroe's kitchen when Alma confronts Ennis about Jack.  She has judged him and found him lacking as a husband and a father.

There's the nifty camera move (also discovered by someone else) when Jack appears to be weighing Ennis' excuses for postponing their trip - the infamous lake scene.

And the scales of judgment I like best are those in Mrs. Twist's kitchen.  The sparsely decorated house has a simple cross and in my opinion, Mrs. Twist is portrayed as a true Christian.  She embraces Ennis with complete understanding of his relationship with her son and offers him comfort and the gift of seeing Jack's room, where I believe she knows he'll find the symbol of Jack's love for him.

This has strayed a bit from the topic of Easter, but I think if you see it in the light of the Christian myth of Easter resurrection...how does the Apostle's Creed go (United Methodist version)?

"...the third day he rose from the dead;
    he ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead..."

And therefore I have brought myself back on topic. 

[Brown Eyes]

Thanks Lynne... I think I have the same reaction to symbolism born of literature classes as you describe above.

I often forget the scales!  So, thanks for this explanation, they certainly seem very significant.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Maybe Easter is not that much a consideration in the BM movie, why?

Is it because it notes that our democratic countries are maybe becoming now islamic?

So that is a caution to us to keep it democratic?

Hugs!

You just don't miss a chance to play that islamic card do you Artiste? Shees!

It is because democratic countries are becoming secular, moving away from the need for organized religion.

Methinks you need a organized religion. Perhaps you should look into becoming a muslim, Artiste, you know, walk a kilometer in their shoes before criticizing???

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Thanks Shakestheground!

I will reply to you first, and then to the others!! OK??

Shakestheground, you puzzle me by your post. Why?

I do not know why you act that way towards me. May I say that I do walk as you say since I have no choice!! Do you want some examples??

Awaiting your news,

hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks Lynne, and thanks atz!!

Boy, you sure describe brilliantly, may I say, your post!! I look forward to see those details, next times I will view the BM movie!!

To both of you and to others too: to me... Easter is there in the BM movie, but in many ways.

Other ways??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

To both of you and to others too: to me... Easter is there in the BM movie, but in many ways.

Other ways??

To the 3 of you and to others too:  Easter is the BM movie in many ways??

Hugs!

[Artiste]

I just wondered could this BM movie have been named simply:

Easter?

Hugs!

[delalluvia]

I just wondered could this BM movie have been named simply:

Easter?

Hugs!

No.

There is no resurrection in the story.

Personally I buy very few of the religious metaphors in BBM.  Proulx chose sheep - most importantly not because of any religious implication, but because the story is supposed to be about cowboy wannabes and nothing is lower to a cattleman than sheep and sheepherding.

I don't buy the 3 crosses thing at the beginning of the movie either.  Cross-hatching/cross beam - I forget the exact term - is a very common architectural structure.  The basic design of all telephone poles.  They couldn't show a telephone pole without the cross-hatching being on display.  It doesn't imply a cross or religion every single time, sometimes, there's just a telephone pole in the shot.

You find scales in a grocery store.  It's just a prop used to make the grocery store scene more convincing.  As for the Scales of Justice, Justice is a pagan god, not a Christian one, so IMO that doesn't really fit even if that is what BBM was aiming for.

Any religious implications I got were non-existent, neutral or negative - a "fire and brimstone crowd" that Ennis wanted to avoid at any cost, and Jack's complete lack of any knowledge of his mother's devout faith other than a song he can sing.

Yes, Jack carried a sheep.  He also kicked one in the ass, neglects them and offered to shoot and eat one. 

Not a very good shepherd religiously speaking or othewise.

[Artiste]

Thanks dellalluvia!

1-

There is no resurrection in the story.

 

On the other hand, some viewers think that it is that or likewise. I do think that Jack is STILL alive and some other(s) did or do too... like I am thinking!!
........

2-

Personally I buy very few of the religious metaphors in BBM.

So there are some, MORE evbident ones?
.....

3-

Proulx chose sheep -

 

Did she say WHY?

4-

Proulx chose sheep - most importantly not because of any religious implication, but because the story is supposed to be about cowboy wannabes and nothing is lower to a cattleman than sheep and sheepherding.

 

  Who says NOT because of religious implications? It could NOT be her, since she mentions: religions, may I suggest!! Why does she quotes religions??

5-

      but because the story is supposed to be about cowboy wannabes and nothing is lower to a cattleman than sheep and sheepherding.

       

To that, who considers that as that? It is the culture of the area?? Of the cowboys? Their prejudices?


6-

but because the story is supposed to be about cowboy wannabes and nothing is lower to a cattleman than sheep and sheepherding.

 

To that, if we consider gay men below that of the straight men in USA culture, then us (since I am a gay man) is like that to the eyes of some or many OTHER Americans!! ?? Therefore, Annie guides us readers/viewers right away to DRAMA!! Something is NOT right in such society... tension, non-acceptance, etc., which will lead maybe to death... as to likely or maybe murdered because a gay man is different!!.... to a straight ??

Your other parts, I will note later if you like... and for now, I await your reply and that of others to guide me,

hugs!!

[delalluvia]

Thanks dellalluvia!

1-  On the other hand, some viewers think that it is that or likewise. I do think that Jack is STILL alive and some other(s) did or do too... like I am thinking!!

Um, OK.  But Annie Proulx wrote a tragedy.  Most tragedies end in death.  So I can't really see Jack living.  He is quite dead, his ashes turned over to his parents.
........

2-  So there are some, MORE evbident ones?

The being sick scene right before Ennis gets married scene is one that springs to mind.

4-   Who says NOT because of religious implications? It could NOT be her, since she mentions: religions, may I suggest!! Why does she quotes religions??

Well, probably because I didn't get the impression she was writing a religious story.  She was writing a tragic love story about two men who fall in love.  To the mainstream religion, there is nothing less religious than that.

5-  To that, who considers that as that? It is the culture of the area?? Of the cowboys? Their prejudices?

The cowboys.  It's a historical prejudice.

6-  To that, if we consider gay men below that of the straight men in USA culture, then us (since I am a gay man) is like that to the eyes of some or many OTHER Americans!! ?? Therefore, Annie guides us readers/viewers right away to DRAMA!! Something is NOT right in such society... tension, non-acceptance, etc., which will lead maybe to death... as to likely or maybe murdered because a gay man is different!!.... to a straight ??

Not sure if she meant to imply that, or just that these two guys were such losers and so poor this was the only job they could get - and they barely got it.

[brokeplex]

Good point. The religious references are a bit more subtle, such as Ennis asking Jack what the Pentecost is -- just hours before their own "Pentecostal fire".   

the calendar dates  when they were on the mountain talking about the Pentecost (June?) may also coincides with the feast of the Pentecost in the church calendar.

[Artiste]

Thanks again delalluvia!

1-

Um, OK.  But Annie Proulx wrote a tragedy.  Most tragedies end in death.  So I can't really see Jack living.  He is quite dead, his ashes turned over to his parents

...
Sure, that Annie story is a tragedy! So is Christ death, right? All christians carry crosses, their cross, is the saying?? That their tragedy will come... I guess to everyone?? Annie foresees gay death as that will happen maybe to Jack being gay or likewise, iand she details at the start the murder of a gay man because he was gay - what a tragic note!! Ennis, will he be killed because he loves too? - He does fear very much!!

(I do not know about muslims or other islamics, jews, etc., and non-religious, carrying crosses, as their symbol, does anyone?? - so having said that, then Annie talks about christianity, right??) The conflicts within and without (outside) christianity, maybe??

2-

The being sick scene right before Ennis gets married scene is one that springs to mind.

 

...
You lost me there. Which sick scene?

3-

Well, probably because I didn't get the impression she was writing a religious story.  She was writing a tragic love story about two men who fall in love.  To the mainstream religion, there is nothing less religious than that.

 

.......

Yes and no. Yes, to some, it is the love between two men; to others, it is not nescessary that!! - or not that at all... they view and say!! Here, it depends, on the viewer's culture, experiences, point of views, projection, proofs he or she found so far, etc.; to clarify, instruct and educate. There are many views here as to that, you know that??

Of course, it depends too on the viewer's perspective, the light(s) shown on these 2: Ennis and Jack!!

Plus, if you view that Ennis is Jack and Jack is Ennis??

Etc.??

..........

4-

 The cowboys.  It's a historical prejudice.

 

...

OK, I accept that! So is the prejudice against gay men?? Right?? As so by many or the general population... so far?? Bibles, etc.?? So is the prejudice against lesbians, etc.!! Unfortunately!!

..
5-

Not sure if she meant to imply that, or just that these two guys were such losers and so poor this was the only job they could get - and they barely got it.
  

Surely, Annie does imply that, since she is a master-writer!! Every word and expressions count!! You know that being a writer, right??  Look at to-day, the so-poor living in the streets in the USA (and other countries), where half of the former American soldiers live in the streets in the USA, and does the Federal Government help them after having used them?? If so, barely!! There is prejudice there, always against the poorest and its getting worst, right??


Annie talks about many issues right?? I figure the women rights, that the BM movie does too, continuing Annie's story!! Do you?

This film seems to be Easter in many ways...

hugs!

[delalluvia]

Thanks again delalluvia!

1- ...
Sure, that Annie story is a tragedy! So is Christ death, right? All christians carry crosses, their cross, is the saying?? That their tragedy will come... I guess to everyone?? Annie foresees gay death as that will happen maybe to Jack being gay or likewise, iand she details at the start the murder of a gay man because he was gay - what a tragic note!! Ennis, will he be killed because he loves too? - He does fear very much!!

Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy?  It was his destiny, wasn't it?  He was put here to die for everyone's sins?  There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right?  And then he was reborn again.  I don't call that a tragedy.

2- ...
You lost me there. Which sick scene?

Ennis in the alley, throwing up.  Remember?

3- Yes and no. Yes, to some, it is the love between two men; to others, it is not nescessary that!! - or not that at all... they view and say!! Here, it depends, on the viewer's culture, experiences, point of views, projection, proofs he or she found so far, etc.; to clarify, instruct and educate. There are many views here as to that, you know that??

Yes, but I believe - and so did the actors and writers - that it is a universal love story.  That's what the tagline of the movie says, right?  "Love is a Force of Nature"?  So to me that says that first and foremost, the story is about love.   

4- ...OK, I accept that! So is the prejudice against gay men?? Right?? As so by many or the general population... so far?? Bibles, etc.?? So is the prejudice against lesbians, etc.!! Unfortunately!!

Yes, but I'm not sure of your point.  There has always been prejudice against gay men and women.  It pre-dates the Bible era.

5- Surely, Annie does imply that, since she is a master-writer!! Every word and expressions count!!

Well, the story and the movie are different.  Annie doesn't write about 3 crosses or scales in a grocery store, or Jack carrying a sheep.  In the story, he's carrying a dog.  What does that say?  She doesn't even write about the church wedding at the end - that was the movie, not the story.  So no, I don't think so.

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

It is much joy for me to see your views!
...

Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy?  It was his destiny, wasn't it?  He was put here to die for everyone's sins?  There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right?  And then he was reborn again.  I don't call that a tragedy.

 

...
May I say a tragedy as well as a non-tragedy; yes both. That is a puzzle for me!! Some of it, I have solved... much not yet!! I suppose the trajedy comes first? Firstly, since a person does NOT know hope to cope with life and makes mystakes (what you/I/others call maybe sin), and once, a person realizes that someone is better like LOVE is, than it is not a tragady, but HEAVEN! You sure make me think this morning, even if I have not slept that well for 3 nights (mother's dog woke me up 5 times last night)!! And your expression... sentence or description reminds me of christianity which say that one is born with sin - is that it?? I do NOT nescessarily accept that: everyone is born in sin and/or with sin as is sinful!! I forget which French educator said otherwise (oh was it Rousseau?)! I agree with both.

When I go into the forest and see a bird which has never seen a human (I), it (the bird) is NOT afraid of me, and it does not want to harm me, but when I do NOT think of BOTH of us (bird and I), then something happens... as I avance towards it... because I become egoist wanting to see more as to grab more now (I saw but now I attack because I want to grab, and therefore I become an instrument which could be a gun to the bird, so the bird now fears and protects itself and goes away - or its parents gets me away!!

I learned my lesson from that! So now, I let the bird be. Last year, a mother bird made a nest in my shed, so I did not bother it: I just looked at it many, many, many wondrous times and we both respected each other!! I loved the bird and the bird loved me!! It made the nest here, because likely since the back new neighbours are bad adding poisson to kill on purpose squirrels, etc., for instance!! Birds have brains and so do humans!! WE can all LOVE in this earth paradise!!

Maybe I lost track here? Or I lost you? Or you are lost... with all my words? Do you understand what I mean by the above?

I will answer you further on that and other lines of yours later too. Be happy to do so, as you instruct me... as to make me think and better myself!! I am grateful!

I do not know (all the whys as to why some persons commit murder) and am learning to try to help some human(s) and myself, so we can all better the world!!

Christianity derrives from the jewish books and some others. It is true that we say that Christ was on the cross, and that can be viewed as a tragedy? Was it not a tragedy that the gay man in the BM movie was murdered because he was gay (of the... two tough old birds!!)?  Was it not a tragedy that Jack was to be murdered and probably murdered because he was gay or something like that?

A few years ago, I checked on something that one of my brothers told me: muslims and jews are cousins. So I asked the muslim head when he came to see me at one of my art gallery exhibitions and I found out that he said that too; so, I asked than why all the killlings, the war?? He did not provide me an answer to that! He was so surprised that even if he kept insisting that I become a muslim, that to me there were not difference between his religion and others!! He kept talking with me for hours since he was amazed that I kept surprising him with things that he taught that only his religion knew about!!

.........

Is it destiny to be murdered because one is a gay person?
............

Was Christ reborn? That is a saying or a hope?  Was Jack reborn? Does Jack still live?

.........

Much can be said?

At least Easter makes us think and become better??

Later... and for now must eat my breakfast, awaiting your news, from you and from all,

hugs!!

[Artiste]

Oh, that reminds me, what is mortification?

Does that have anything to do with Easter?

Is that in the BM movie? Somehow?

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Annie placed an accent on Easter?


She talks about life and death!! Like:

A- There are at least what like one or two (or more) birth scenes in the BM movie?

B- There seems to be one or two (or more) death scenes too: 1- the scene of the dead murdered gay gay; and 2- the scenes where there is talk about Jack being passed away!!

There are NO Christmas scenes!??  Does that say something?  There are life and death scenes or talk, and those accent the story!! Makes it drama!!

Because life and death are opposite ends (in a way), therefore Annie tries to make her story an Easter one??

Hope?? Easter is Hope??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Easter nears... now!

And I do still consider the BM as Easter!!

You see that too?

In which way?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy?  It was his destiny, wasn't it?  He was put here to die for everyone's sins?  There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right?  And then he was reborn again.  I don't call that a tragedy.

Ennis in the alley, throwing up.  Remember?

Yes, but I believe - and so did the actors and writers - that it is a universal love story.   That's what the tagline of the movie says, right?  "Love is a Force of Nature"?  So to me that says that first and foremost, the story is about love.   

Yes, but I'm not sure of your point.  There has always been prejudice against gay men and women.  It pre-dates the Bible era.

Well, the story and the movie are different.  Annie doesn't write about 3 crosses or scales in a grocery store, or Jack carrying a sheep.  In the story, he's carrying a dog.  What does that say?  She doesn't even write about the church wedding at the end - that was the movie, not the story.  So no, I don't think so.

the film has many more elements of universality than the ss, because the screenplay for the film was heteronormed over the original AP material. The ss is a much more gay specific work, of course as love and frustrations of love and denial being universal elements one could also say the ss has elements of a  "universal love story". I think the film was definitely made into a "universal love story" in order to better market the product. That may be neither good nor bad, but I think it is a reality.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex. Since you bring up that, may I ask:

Easter is considered universal, yes!!

So maybe this heteronormed aspect of the film, makes it MORE Easter like?

Or LESS??

To you and/or to others too??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

About two years ago, I read a thought written by someone who thinks that the BM movie is like Easter if I interpret him, since he figured that it was pentecostal !!

I guess like every person carries his/her own cross?? Is that it?

Hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

I don't know much about the pentacost, so I'll go back to the original question. The concept of Easter, or rebirth, regeneration, DOES appear in both the story and the film, IMO, but subtly. There are quite a few parallels to the story of Jesus in both. First of all, the story begins with impoverished rural people traveling a long distance in the service of the government. We recall that Mary and Joseph were simple peasants who came to Bethlehem (notice it starts with a B) to be counted. Aguirre said the first words in the movie when he called to them, saying "You pair a deuces lookin for work..." Aguirre is known as an incarnation of God in some cultures. The Bible depicts Joseph walking while Mary rode on a donkey, and of the two of them, only Jack had transportation, and his was rickety at best.

Okay, I'll fast forward here in the interest of time. Jack was a bullrider, and Jesus was portrayed as such when he entered Jerusalem on "an unbroken colt" (this was pointed out to me by Annie Proulx herself in answer to a question I asked her). Jack was purported to have supernatural powers, such as curing pneumonia and attracting lightning. He certainly was able to work miracles when it came to bringing Ennis out of his shell! Nevertheless, Jack pursued love at the expense of his own safety, similar to the risky things Jesus did in his ministry. Jack's end was brutish and disputed, just like Jesus'.

Ennis' character had some parallels to Peter's. Like the first apostle, he spoke out against Jack and I believe it was three times. At the end, after it was too late, he pledged his love to Jack, saying "Jack, I swear." There is a glimmer of the promise of Easter redemption, though very subtle in the story and just a little stronger in the movie. Can you see it in the photo below?? I missed it the first dozen or so times I saw the movie, but when I viewed it at the BBQ last May, I saw it for the first time, right in the very middle of the screen!!

[Artiste]

Thanks very, very much Front-Ranger!

Wow, you sure detail beautifully!!

Now, I have to ponder  about each detail you present!

So great to know that!

More?

Hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Thanks, Artiste. Yes, there is more!! Did you know that the Easter story of Jesus rising from the dead was eerily similar to earlier stories and myths from other religions? In these stories, the Earth Mother gave birth to the Sun God in the spring, who grew to manhood and became her lover. He was cut down and died in the autumn, bringing on the winter, but the mother always gave birth to him again year after year. Thus was mankind assured of life's continuance and given new hope in the darkest days of the year.

In Brokeback Mountain, we have Ma Twist as the Earth Mother, keeper of the mysteries such as the Pentacost and why she would marry an SOB like Old Man Twist. She is also the one who gives the benediction, laying her hand on Ennis' shoulder, bestowing the gift of the shirts, and saying "You come back, see us again."

Has anyone spotted the sign of redemption in the closing scene of the movie that I posted earlier today??

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

I sure like your description about Mrs. Twist!

However, I am puzzled as to why you detail Mr. Twist like that!
(Is he supposed to be Judas?)

More please.

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

I think of Old Man Twist as more like Jehovah or the Vengeful God, the patriarcal God who judges the quick and the dead.

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

Boy, you sure create a puzzle for me there!

May I say that:
1- since Mr. Twist did love Jack, therefore he is angry at Ennis for not living with his son;

(That is if Jack is Mr. Twist's son... which I question).

2- and, because Mr. Twist is still sad because of Jack's passing, is he being vengeful really by not letting Jack's ashes to Ennis?

Note: I have noticed that when someone dies, that some or many persons become even vengeful !!
Like you suggested too quickly to judge!! One example is when Heath passed away, I had created about 1 p.m. a thread concerning death, and when I came back about 6 p.m., there was already 3 (if not more) plus a moderator who blasted me for that!! How was I to know that Heath was to die after my thread?

Do you understand what I mean?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

I do not know if all persons tend to judge too quickly, it seems so; since many do without looking at the facts!! I did that often! Do I do it as often now with my past experiences? Does everbody? Is everyone a Mr. Twist?

Is everyone a Mrs. Twist?

On the other hand, some persons do NOT act fast enough, as some do to SAVE their lives!!

How can one prevent from someone harming you or you harming someone??

WE need to feel as well as to think?? Which comes first??

Is that what the BM movie and Easter is about?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

1- since Mr. Twist did love Jack, therefore he is angry at Ennis for not living with his son;

You have a point there, Artiste. It sure does seem like OMT has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to Ennis. "'Ennis Del Mar' he says, he's gonna come up here and whip this ranch into shape." The contemptuous way he says Ennis' name...and the way he accuses Ennis without just coming out and saying it of rejecting his son and his proposition.

(That is if Jack is Mr. Twist's son... which I question).

I'm with you, Artiste. It's hard to believe that Jack could be OMT's son, and Annie Proulx also throws doubt when she says that Ennis "couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them." People ended up with children many different ways back then. Jack could have been adopted, or he could have actually been the son of a relative. Plus, there's the fact that he was circumcized and his father wasn't. That is a little unusual. Usually it's like father, like son.

2- and, because Mr. Twist is still sad because of Jack's passing, is he being vengeful really by not letting Jack's ashes to Ennis?

No doubt, there, too, Artiste. How else to explain it. He could have given Ennis at least SOME of the ashes anyway!

Note: I have noticed that when someone dies, that some or many persons become even vengeful !!
Like you suggested too quickly to judge!! One example is when Heath passed away, I had created about 1 p.m. a thread concerning death, and when I came back about 6 p.m., there was already 3 (if not more) plus a moderator who blasted me for that!! How was I to know that Heath was to die after my thread?

Do you understand what I mean?

I understand exactly what you mean, Artiste. There have been some distraught, angry, and beside-themselves people both in the virtual and real-life world during the past two months. The classic steps of grieving start with 1, shock and 2, anger. I think it was doubly hard for some people who may have never experienced the death of a loved one before, as well as for those who might not have the tightest grasp on reality to start with. The intensity and vehemence of the reaction of some people to Heath's death was startling and scary. Hopefully, we have found ways to reconcile it by now and are starting to move toward resignation, acceptance, and valuing the life that Heath did have, the spirit that he did possess and shared with us, and even to be happy that we had the opportunity to experience his rare talent, spirit, and character.

But it was definitely shaky there for a while!!

[Artiste]

Thanks very, very much Front-Ranger!

You sure are enlightning! I appreciate that!

As far as you say concerning this:
I'm with you, Artiste. It's hard to believe that Jack could be OMT's son, and Annie Proulx also throws doubt when she says that Ennis "couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them." People ended up with children many different ways back then. Jack could have been adopted, or he could have actually been the son of a relative. Plus, there's the fact that he was circumcized and his father wasn't. That is a little unusual. Usually it's like father, like son.
..........

Front-Ranger, I am so happy that you say that!

Front-Ranger and to all too: I had thought that Jack maybe Mrs. Twist sister's son, and I do not remember how I did that! As a possibility... ??

What I find a bit stange  is more than that too! Mr. Twist knows about Ennis before Ennis comes because Jack had told him things, maybe? What is this relationship, friendship, rapport directly told to HIM by Jack, and/or to Mrs. Twist who mentioned it to old man Twist? Any clues there?

..............

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Back to Jack being a bullrider, here is a picture of one of the original bullriders, or more accurately bull leapers, of ancient Crete!!

What I find a bit stange  is more than that too! Mr. Twist knows about Ennis before Ennis comes because Jack had told him things, maybe? What is this relationship, friendship, rapport directly told to HIM by Jack, and/or to Mrs. Twist who mentioned it to old man Twist? Any clues there?

I found that strange too, Artiste, that Jack would tell OMT all about Ennis, rather naive and strange. It is strange to see how children of abusive parents destroy their lives in the vain search for approval from them, even long after they are dead!! So strange and saddening. Another thing I noticed is that Jack didn't talk much about his mother even though she is obviously devoted and loving. He said to Ennis as they were about to part, "Guess I'll go up and give my Daddy a hand through the winter," and when he was drunk he had a tendency to talk about daddy. Always daddy and "my old man." I guess it's just human nature. There again are parallels to the Bible. Jesus was one who was always talking about his Daddy, even though his Father doomed him to die a horrible cruel death!!

[Artiste]

Thanks very much Front-Ranger!

Your post sure is instructive!

Yes, why did Jack NOT mention his mother... thought to be Mrs. Twist!!  ??

So, you really think that Jack was abused as a child? By which person(s) ??

Annie must have studied what in order to create the Jack charactor, as abused child?

Did Annie also prefered to ad Ennis as abused too? As a child? Or she accentuated maybe more after his decending the BM with Jack??

Is Annie trying to colour Ennis also as Christ ??

The pentacost, yes Pentacost as an aim, is for both: Ennis as well as for Jack, for Annie??

[Pentacost /i], is Easter here??

Pentacost is consolation for Ennis who survives so far??

But consolation is not for Jack since he was more open as a gay man, showing his orientation to the public?

Front-Ranger and to all too: Easter thoughts and wishes to you, your family and friends,

hugs!! Thanks for that pic too!!

[delalluvia]

Back to Jack being a bullrider, here is a picture of one of the original bullriders, or more accurately bull leapers, of ancient Crete!!

One of my fav pics.  But I'm not sure how Jack as a bull rider is anywhere near equivalent to Jesus riding on a donkey (If a "colt' was 'unbroken', Jesus wouldn't have been riding it).

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

Why a colt is the same or not for Jack as it was for Jesus??

Do you see the BM film like an Easter story in a way?

Hugs! Happy Holy Friday!

[Front-Ranger]

One of my fav pics.  But I'm not sure how Jack as a bull rider is anywhere near equivalent to Jesus riding on a donkey (If a "colt' was 'unbroken', Jesus wouldn't have been riding it).

All I can say is to recount the conversation, della. I said to Annie Proulx: "You made Jack a bullrider, What about the myth of the bullrider that stretches back to the bull leapers of ancient Crete?" She was nodding her head and then she answered, "I expect the reader to bring this information to the story, because there just isn't time (I think she meant room) to talk about all of it. For instance..." and then she went into the story about Christ riding on the unbroken colt. I think that was one of His many miracles, instantly taming a colt, or low-startle-point filly, if you will...

[Front-Ranger]

I do not know if all persons tend to judge too quickly, it seems so; since many do without looking at the facts!! I did that often! Do I do it as often now with my past experiences? Does everbody? Is everyone a Mr. Twist?

Is everyone a Mrs. Twist?

On the other hand, some persons do NOT act fast enough, as some do to SAVE their lives!!

How can one prevent from someone harming you or you harming someone??

WE need to feel as well as to think?? Which comes first??

Is that what the BM movie and Easter is about?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I must say that I am somewhat stumped by your questions, Artiste. You pose very very insightful questions, and I must think for a while before answering. . . just give me a couple of secs here!!

[delalluvia]

All I can say is to recount the conversation, della. I said to Annie Proulx: "You made Jack a bullrider, What about the myth of the bullrider that stretches back to the bull leapers of ancient Crete?" She was nodding her head and then she answered, "I expect the reader to bring this information to the story, because there just isn't time (I think she meant room) to talk about all of it. For instance..." and then she went into the story about Christ riding on the unbroken colt. I think that was one of His many miracles, instantly taming a colt, or low-startle-point filly, if you will...

Well, hmmm.  Based on what little you quoted, I don't think Proulx meant anything other than what she said.  That readers will bring their own knowledge to the story.

As far as we can tell, historically, the Minoans didn't ride the bulls, they did pretty much what you see, more like a circus event, jumping over or onto the bulls during festivals.  Whether Jesus tamed a donkey or not, I'm not sure how partying ancient pagan fertility festival bull jumpers, hard working modern day bull riders and ancient Jewish reformers riding donkeys have to do with each other.  From what I've read, in some versions, Jesus is riding a female donkey with her colt along side her, and that Jesus' entrance to Jerusalem was modeled on something like a triumphal parade, like conquering kings at the time, complete with the crowd waving palm fronds of victory.

I see what you guys are getting at, but to me, they're extreme leaps.

[Front-Ranger]

Here's a link to the coverage of the entire event. Annie of course said a lot more than that.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4224.0.html

Just to be clear, I have two points: bull-worshipping cultures have existed in many places and throughout history. Secondly, the early Christians borrowed from and appropriated the rituals of earlier religions, and the Easter story is no exception.

In fact, the very word Easter pre-dates Christianity and refers to the Germanic goddess Oestre, who was herself appropriated by the Judeo/Christians and became Esther.

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

I did NOT know the origin of the word Easter! So that is it: Oestre ??

Since it's Holy Friday, do you think that Jack is crucified by being blasted with the tire iron? In film(s), Christ is picked by the arrow of the soldier, a sword? The tire iron is like sword to make him bleed?

Happy Good Friday to you, family and friends!!


Hugs!

[delalluvia]

Here's a link to the coverage of the entire event. Annie of course said a lot more than that.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4224.0.html

Just to be clear, I have two points: bull-worshipping cultures have existed in many places and throughout history.

True, but what does bull-worshipping have to do with Jesus and Easter?  That is what I'm trying to wrap my head around.  Christians in every generation would have been appalled at the analogy.  After all, bull-worshippers are the "golden calf" worshippers and idolators derided so much in the bible.   The people the Jews and then the Christians have tried so hard to differentiate themselves from.

Secondly, the early Christians borrowed from and appropriated the rituals of earlier religions, and the Easter story is no exception.

Yes, but it was as you say, a Germanic influence, also, the Christians - as usual - hijacked the Passover celebration of the Jews (which had nothing to do with resurrection) and the vernal equinox fertility celebrations of other pagan religions.

I still don't see the connection between bull-worshippers and Easter and BBM.  At best, the only thing I see that they have convincingly in common are livestock.

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

You say:

I still don't see the connection between bull-worshippers and Easter and BBM. 
.........

Do you think that sheep in the BM movie is like an Easter or bible story?
........

You say:

I still don't see the connection between bull-worshippers and Easter and BBM.  At best, the only thing I see that they have convincingly in common are livestock.
........

I like your sense of humour!

Delalluvia, Happy Good Friday!

Hugs!
 
 
 

 
 
 

[Front-Ranger]

Thanks Front-Ranger!
I did NOT know the origin of the word Easter! So that is it: Oestre ??

Since it's Holy Friday, do you think that Jack is crucified by being blasted with the tire iron? In film(s), Christ is picked by the arrow of the soldier, a sword? The tire iron is like sword to make him bleed?

Happy Good Friday to you, family and friends!!
Hugs!

I would like to answer you as best I can, Artiste, but this talk of crucifixion makes me queasy. I remember as a teenager that I used to babysit at a Catholic family's home and there was a crucifix on the wall that I could barely look at (me being raised Presbyterian where the crosses were bare) and even tiptoed past. The analogies are many.. .  for instance the nails that were driven into Christ's hands bring to mind the nail that Ennis drove into the closet door where he hung the shirts, the sword (as you mention) which is analogous to the tire iron, and the vinegar that the centurions swabbed in Christ's wounds, which brings to mind the horrific "baptising" that Jack received via his father pissing on him...well I could go on, but let's not!!

I will also discuss at more length the parallels between "bull worshippers" (that is a major oversimplification) and the modern patriarchal religions...but think on this for a second...why is Easter on a different date each year??

[delalluvia]

I will also discuss at more length the parallels between "bull worshippers" (that is a major oversimplification) and the modern patriarchal religions...but think on this for a second...why is Easter on a different date each year??

Good question.  This is what Wikipedia says:

The calculation of Easter is complicated because it is linked to (an inaccurate version of) the Hebrew calendar. Jesus was crucified immediately before the Jewish Passover [or after depending upon interpretation - my comment], which is a celebration of the Exodus from Egypt under Moses. Celebration of Passover started on the 14th or 15th day of the (spring) month of Nisan. Jewish months start when the moon is new, therefore the 14th or 15th day of the month must be immediately after a full moon. It was therefore decided to make Easter Sunday the first Sunday after the first full moon after vernal equinox. Or more precisely: Easter Sunday is the first Sunday after the "official" full moon on or after the "official" vernal equinox. The official vernal equinox is always 21 March. The official full moon may differ from the real full moon by one or two days. (Note, however, that historically, some countries have used the real (astronomical) full moon instead of the official one when calculating Easter. This was the case, for example, of the German Protestant states, which used the astronomical full moon in the years 1700-1776. A similar practice was used in Sweden in the years 1740-1844 and in Denmark in the 1700s.) The full moon that precedes Easter is called the Paschal full moon.

[Artiste]

Merci, thanks Front-Ranger!

Wow, you were scared as youth when you babysitted there, seeing that crucifix!!

I guess that you now know that even christian kids, youths, even adults are scared of that too!! Even to-day??

Are you still scared of that even to-day, if I may ask?

..........

I forgot why Easter's date is changing every year? Something about 40 days, is it?

Keep care!

Have a great and happy Good Friday Front-Ranger!!  Same wish goes to your family and friends!!

Hugs!

[delalluvia]

Since it's Holy Friday, do you think that Jack is crucified by being blasted with the tire iron? In film(s), Christ is picked by the arrow of the soldier, a sword? The tire iron is like sword to make him bleed?

Hi Artiste.  No.  A few pages back, I wrote that IMO, BBM had nothing to do with Easter or the resurrection.  Jack was dead and that was that. 

The Roman soldier pricked the side of Jesus with his spear to make sure he was dead, not to make him bleed.  Apparently this was a normal thing to do before they hauled down bodies, if they were going to do so.

and the vinegar that the centurions swabbed in Christ's wounds, which brings to mind the horrific "baptising" that Jack received via his father pissing on him

This is interesting because I just read this in my favorite cookbook A Taste of Ancient Rome:

"...this beverage was...posca, a drink of vinegar or acidfied wine and water that is often mentioned in ancient sources.  It was used for the military troops and considered to be refreshing and invigorating.  With this in mind...according to...John 19:28-29...[Jesus said] '"I thirst".  Now there was a vessel full of vinegar;  and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth...'  This seemingly heartless action was therefore simply a gesture of compassion [by the soldiers] for a dying man..."

[Front-Ranger]

This is interesting because I just read this in my favorite cookbook A Taste of Ancient Rome:

Yes, that sounds like quite an interesting cookbook!

"...this beverage was...posca, a drink of vinegar or acidfied wine and water that is often mentioned in ancient sources.  It was used for the military troops and considered to be refreshing and invigorating.  With this in mind...according to...John 19:28-29...[Jesus said] '"I thirst".  Now there was a vessel full of vinegar;  and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth...'  This seemingly heartless action was therefore simply a gesture of compassion [by the soldiers] for a dying man..."

Very interesting...the words of the Bible are certainly skewed often to suit the agenda of the times, aren't they? Now, I heard in great detail as a child about the terrible things that were done to Jesus to increase his suffering. All these anecdotes were gathered together under the heading of "The Passion of the Christ" and certain sects replay the whole thing as a ritual, and there was even a movie by Mel Gibson on the subject, which I didn't see. But the passages can be interpreted any number of ways, as can the Annie Proulx story. What I think we can agree on is that there are references to Christian and/or pre-Christian rituals and symbology in the story. I don't believe that Annie Proulx did this because she wanted to promote any kind of religious agenda at all. I think she was simply drawing upon a universal archetype as any good writer/storyteller would do. There are archtypes which transcend not only stories but whole religions, they are a part of our DNA in a way.

More after lunch...

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

You say:


Now there was a vessel full of vinegar;  and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth...'  This seemingly heartless action was therefore simply a gesture of compassion [by the soldiers] for a dying man..."


............

None of that given to Jack?  What kind of compassion did he get from the murderers who murdered him?

And what kind of compassion did the murderer(s) did give to the one gay man of those two old tough birds??

......

Destiny is it Easter? What is it to you or as the BM movie?

Hugs! Happy Easter dellaluvia!  And Happy Good Friday!

[delalluvia]

You say:

Now there was a vessel full of vinegar;  and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth...'  This seemingly heartless action was therefore simply a gesture of compassion [by the soldiers] for a dying man..."
............

None of that given to Jack?  What kind of compassion did he get from the murderers who murdered him?

And what kind of compassion did the murderer(s) did give to the one gay man of those two old tough birds??
......
Destiny is it Easter? What is it to you or as the BM movie?

I don't think Jack was murdered, so there's no issue there.

However, if you think Jack was murdered, then the answer is "None".  No compassion at all was given Jack by his murderers which differs from the Jesus story and hence, another reason BBM is not like the Easter story.

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

I understand more of what you say now.

So you think that maybe Annie accents that there is no compassion when murderers murder gay men just because these murdered are gays?

Does she warns us?

Hugs!

[delalluvia]

Thanks delalluvia!

I understand more of what you say now.

So you think that maybe Annie accents that there is no compassion when murderers murder gay men just because these murdered are gays?

Does she warns us?

Hugs!

No.  Proulx left the story ambiguous.  She doesn't say Jack was murdered and she doesn't say he wasn't.  So I don't think she was 'warning' us about anything other than the destructive nature of homophobic society on everyone.

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

Annie does not know what the futrue holds, therefore, and hints nevertheless that danger is around the corner for gays?

To me, that is maybe how she describes Easter!!

Hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Thanks delalluvia!

Annie does not know what the futrue holds, therefore, and hints nevertheless that danger is around the corner for gays?

To me, that is maybe how she describes Easter!!

Hugs!

I'm not sure Annie was as all-knowing and prescient as you think, Artiste. But, nevertheless, there is the fact, sad as it is, that Matthew Shepherd was beaten, tied to a fence, and left for dead only one year after the publication of the story Brokebake Mountain, and in Wyoming, no less. What was his crime? He came on to a person or persons in a bar in Laramie, Wyoming. Certainliy, this world remains ignorant and full of fear, and we have much to regret. But, every spring, hope springs eternal, even though there is no reason to expect it. Why? I don't know. But, I celebrate and welcome the return of spring, and of hope!!

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

You say:
...Matthew Shepherd was beaten, tied to a fence, and left for dead only one year after the publication of the story Brokebake Mountain, and in Wyoming, no less. What was his crime? He came on to a person or persons in a bar in Laramie, Wyoming. Certainliy, this world remains ignorant and full of fear, and we have much to regret. But, every spring, hope springs eternal, even though there is no reason to expect it. Why? I don't know. But, I celebrate and welcome the return of spring, and of hope!!
........

Front-Ranger, may I say that there was likely no reason that those two beat up Matthew Shepherd except because that he was gay (and that is not reason to me) !! As far as who did come on to whom, it was likely those two who murdered Matthew who came on to him, because such coward foxes do sense when one is gay, kind, etc.; from what I have experienced! Such are foxy!! And such foxes get away with it totally or partially!!

In a way, those two murderers got away with it totally, since it was said that it was not a sexual orientation crime!!
Guess that justice was blind there?

Those two murderers will get out, if not out already, of jail. But Matthew has no life now!! WE can only miss Matthew!!

Will his two murderers miss Matthew?? Or are they now seeking another/others gays to murder?? Where is the justice ??

Since this murder happened before Annie's story, then she must have known about it?

Since Annie does write about gay(s) murdered, guess that she notes that as  Holy Friday (death upon the cross as Matthew was murdered on that fence), as well as Easter since we remember Matthew ( and  don't applaud his murderers, at least not decent persons do)!! ??

Happy Easter!! Joyeuses Pâques!!
Hugs!

[optom3]

I would like to answer you as best I can, Artiste, but this talk of crucifixion makes me queasy. I remember as a teenager that I used to babysit at a Catholic family's home and there was a crucifix on the wall that I could barely look at (me being raised Presbyterian where the crosses were bare) and even tiptoed past. The analogies are many.. .  for instance the nails that were driven into Christ's hands bring to mind the nail that Ennis drove into the closet door where he hung the shirts, the sword (as you mention) which is analogous to the tire iron, and the vinegar that the centurions swabbed in Christ's wounds, which brings to mind the horrific "baptising" that Jack received via his father pissing on him...well I could go on, but let's not!!

I will also discuss at more length the parallels between "bull worshippers" (that is a major oversimplification) and the modern patriarchal religions...but think on this for a second...why is Easter on a different date each year??

That is odd you mention the Catholic family and the crucifix.My parents are strict catholics,and I hated to go into their bedroom as they had a really "dark" picture of the crucifx over their bed.Jesus on the cross,blood nails the whole works.It used to scare the pants off me.I had forgotten all about it till I read your post.Then the memories flooded back.Not scary now,but I vividly recall how it used to make me feel.

[Artiste]

Images or sculptures of humans on a cross... sure are striking!

19 or so willingly got to be such on a cross the other day! And such photos of them... are added.
Of course, since too many persons are murdered for nothing still these days, unfortunately, we must all try to have SAFETY dominate!!

There is a facination about that to-day... I suppose because violence reigns still in the world.

And Easter tells us that Love as a Light creates Peace... may I think and say !! ??

HAPPY EASTER to you and to all too with peace and love everyday!!
HUGS!!

[Front-Ranger]

The calculation of Easter is complicated because it is linked to (an inaccurate version of) the Hebrew calendar. Jesus was crucified immediately before the Jewish Passover [or after depending upon interpretation - my comment], which is a celebration of the Exodus from Egypt under Moses. Celebration of Passover started on the 14th or 15th day of the (spring) month of Nisan. Jewish months start when the moon is new, therefore the 14th or 15th day of the month must be immediately after a full moon. It was therefore decided to make Easter Sunday the first Sunday after the first full moon after vernal equinox. Or more precisely: Easter Sunday is the first Sunday after the "official" full moon on or after the "official" vernal equinox.

Thanks! This is good information. We see that Easter and Hebrew rituals were tied to the cycles of the moon. Prehistorical religions also revered the moon and carefully recorded its cycles. To ancient people, the moon is a powerful symbol of resurection and eternal life, because it disappears and is "born again" every month. As the noted Christian Theosophist, Alan Donant, wrote, "What of the stories of resurrection? These too are common. The Canaanites had their Baal -- sacred teacher, Lord of the Universe -- who was killed by monsters and resurrected to eternal life. In Egypt Osiris was born of the gods by virgin birth, and taught Egyptians their arts and skills. He was murdered by his brother, and rose from the dead with the help of Isis, his wife. A day was set aside to celebrate Osiris and the idea of resurrection and eternal life. The Scandinavian story of Odin has striking similarities to the Christian story. Odin recalls for the reader his own crucifixion from which he rose from the dead: 'I know that I hung in the wind-torn tree nine whole nights, spear-pierced. Consecrated to Odin, myself to my Self above me in the tree, whose root no one knows whence it sprang' (The Masks of Odin: Wisdom of the Ancient Norse, Elsa-Brita Titchenell, p. 126). The cross is often referred to as the tree of life.

With so many stories of virgin birth and resurrection, surely we cannot fail to see that, regardless of the forms they take or the peoples involved, these stories describe a universal process."

Annie Proulx and Ang Lee found the myth alive and well in the American West. As Proulx wrote in Brokeback Mountain, "He [Ennis] was still working there in September when Alman Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, as reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."

[delalluvia]

Thanks! This is good information. We see that Easter and Hebrew rituals were tied to the cycles of the moon. Prehistorical religions also revered the moon and carefully recorded its cycles. To ancient people, the moon is a powerful symbol of resurection and eternal life, because it disappears and is "born again" every month. As the noted Christian Theosophist, Alan Donant, wrote, "What of the stories of resurrection? These too are common. The Canaanites had their Baal -- sacred teacher, Lord of the Universe -- who was killed by monsters and resurrected to eternal life. In Egypt Osiris was born of the gods by virgin birth, and taught Egyptians their arts and skills. He was murdered by his brother, and rose from the dead with the help of Isis, his wife. A day was set aside to celebrate Osiris and the idea of resurrection and eternal life. The Scandinavian story of Odin has striking similarities to the Christian story. Odin recalls for the reader his own crucifixion from which he rose from the dead: 'I know that I hung in the wind-torn tree nine whole nights, spear-pierced. Consecrated to Odin, myself to my Self above me in the tree, whose root no one knows whence it sprang' (The Masks of Odin: Wisdom of the Ancient Norse, Elsa-Brita Titchenell, p. 126). The cross is often referred to as the tree of life.

With so many stories of virgin birth and resurrection, surely we cannot fail to see that, regardless of the forms they take or the peoples involved, these stories describe a universal process."

Annie Proulx and Ang Lee found the myth alive and well in the American West. As Proulx wrote in Brokeback Mountain, "He [Ennis] was still working there in September when Alman Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, as reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."

This is almost always true, but in this circumstance we cannot say the same for the ancient Hebrew peoples.  As Wikipedia says, "the Jewish months started on the new moon."  i.e. that's when they started counting.  Most ancient peoples used a lunar calendar because it was easier to count than a solar calendar which was more difficult to track, yet more accurate.  Their Exodus happened on a certain date, so they just started counting from the beginning of their month to get to the correct date.  It was the Christians who started the wonky calculations of Easter, and as you can tell from Wikipedia, they were no where near in agreement as to the date for several centuries.

[brokeplex]

I'm not sure Annie was as all-knowing and prescient as you think, Artiste. But, nevertheless, there is the fact, sad as it is, that Matthew Shepherd was beaten, tied to a fence, and left for dead only one year after the publication of the story Brokebake Mountain, and in Wyoming, no less. What was his crime? He came on to a person or persons in a bar in Laramie, Wyoming. Certainliy, this world remains ignorant and full of fear, and we have much to regret.

 But, every spring, hope springs eternal, even though there is no reason to expect it. Why? I don't know. But, I celebrate and welcome the return of spring, and of hope!!

words to live by!

[brokeplex]

Good question.  This is what Wikipedia says:

The calculation of Easter is complicated because it is linked to (an inaccurate version of) the Hebrew calendar. Jesus was crucified immediately before the Jewish Passover [or after depending upon interpretation - my comment], which is a celebration of the Exodus from Egypt under Moses. Celebration of Passover started on the 14th or 15th day of the (spring) month of Nisan. Jewish months start when the moon is new, therefore the 14th or 15th day of the month must be immediately after a full moon. It was therefore decided to make Easter Sunday the first Sunday after the first full moon after vernal equinox. Or more precisely: Easter Sunday is the first Sunday after the "official" full moon on or after the "official" vernal equinox. The official vernal equinox is always 21 March. The official full moon may differ from the real full moon by one or two days. (Note, however, that historically, some countries have used the real (astronomical) full moon instead of the official one when calculating Easter. This was the case, for example, of the German Protestant states, which used the astronomical full moon in the years 1700-1776. A similar practice was used in Sweden in the years 1740-1844 and in Denmark in the 1700s.) The full moon that precedes Easter is called the Paschal full moon.

a calculation made in the time of the Emperor Constantine, right?

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

You say to quote Annie:
As Proulx wrote in Brokeback Mountain, "He [Ennis] was still working there in September when Alman Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, as reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."
...............

Front-Ranger, and to all too:

Does this mean that Alma worked with livestock ??
Or is that like just an Easter myth??

Happy Easter!!

Hugs!!

[brokeplex]

Do you remember her working with livestock Artiste? I don't recall seeing her work with livestock in the film or reading that she did in the ss.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

What you say seems right to me!

So maybe Annie's story is different than the movie or the ss script??

I was shocked to read that, but maybe it means something like since Alma is maybe in labour... dare I suggest?

Or what is it??

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

perhaps what is meant by the quotation is that Ennis is familiar with and comfortable the process of life, birth and death because he has worked extensively with livestock. perhaps AP is telling us why Ennis prefers to work alone with animals out on the range, it is a choice that although is low paying work, gives Ennis a sense of completeness that a white collar office job or another type of blue collar employment could not.

many people after a life of urban dwelling in high paced office jobs, upon retirement seek the same type of solace and unity with nature that Ennis found on a routine basis almost every day of his life.

perhaps AP is telling us, don't pity Ennis, he found something in his life that most others do not.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

You sure bring up good points!!

I did think like the first one too!!

But I have a feeling it's more...

Maybe it has to be with a female perspective on life?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

I think that AP is giving us Ennis's perspective thru the most of the story.

[Artiste]

So Ennis is thinking    too fast...

having worked too hard??

Hugs!

[delalluvia]

a calculation made in the time of the Emperor Constantine, right?

Dunno.  There were several councils, and according to Wikipedia, the dates were disputed for some centuries, with some regions of Europe having their own Easter separate from the other areas of Chistendom.

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

Did you note too about:
Alma's sleepy groans, as reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."
.........

Why the word livestock?

Hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Unfortunately, I had a typo when I posted this quote. So, here it is again corrected:

"He [Ennis] was still working there in September when Alma Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."

This makes it more clear that it was Ennis who works with livestock, and that he considered his wife and children to be like livestock.

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

Thanks for correcting!

So did Annie make a typo too?? Did she make a mistake saying that? Or the printer's did? Or?

It's unbelievable!!

My head spins...

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Unfortunately, I had a typo when I posted this quote. So, here it is again corrected:

"He [Ennis] was still working there in September when Alma Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."

This makes it more clear that it was Ennis who works with livestock, and that he considered his wife and children to be like livestock.

really, I never thought of that passage in that light! I interpreted that to mean that he was comfortable with the smells and activities of birth, having worked around livestock.

[Front-Ranger]

really, I never thought of that passage in that light! I interpreted that to mean that he was comfortable with the smells and activities of birth, having worked around livestock.

It could be interpreted that way too. But when you put it together with other passages in the book, you have to wonder...for instance, Ennis called his daughters AND his horses "little darlin." And there's the passage about how he married Alma and "had her pregnant by January." He also repeatedly tried to breed Alma in order to prove his masculinity until she put a stop to it by demanding that he use rubbers. When that happened, he said "If you don't want no more of my kids, I'll be happy to leave you alone" thus putting to bed the notion that he saw her as anything but breeding stock.

[brokeplex]

It could be interpreted that way too. But when you put it together with other passages in the book, you have to wonder...for instance, Ennis called his daughters AND his horses "little darlin." And there's the passage about how he married Alma and "had her pregnant by January." He also repeatedly tried to breed Alma in order to prove his masculinity until she put a stop to it by demanding that he use rubbers. When that happened, he said "If you don't want no more of my kids, I'll be happy to leave you alone" thus putting to bed the notion that he saw her as anything but breeding stock.

Very good analysis Ranger! I had never connected the dots before, but what you are saying about Ennis now makes sense to me. 

[Artiste]

Front-Ranger, that is still a puzzle to me!

Your dots seem to connect!

There are OTHER ways too in connecting them?

Hugs!

[optom3]

Front-Ranger, that is still a puzzle to me!

Your dots seem to connect!

There are OTHER ways too in connecting them?

Hugs!

I have always taken it, as he only had sex with Alma to have kids,not because he wnted to have sex with her per se.It is clear in the book and film that he has sex with Alma in the same way he does with Jack,can't think of a polite way of putting it.He taked her from behind.So if there is to be no more kids,he is in effect off the hook.I don't think he particularly enjoys sex with Alma.And he in reality now has an opt out clause.
In the book at Jack and Ennis's last meeting, it is clear that the sex between the 2 of them is still great.,described as "the brilliant charge" But I guess that is the difference between sex with the one you truly love,and sex as almost like a chore or duty.No comparison.

[Artiste]

Thanks optom!

May I diifer now.

Many straight men do have sex back door with their wives!

In Ennis case, if he did not enjoy sex with Alma, then why have so many kids??

Many gay men want sex with a lady, as well as men!! And they love both!!

Once Alma wanted out of sex, Ennis had no choice, right? No matter which door he would have used!!

Right?

Hugs!

[optom3]

Thanks optom!

May I diifer now.

Many straight men do have sex back door with their wives!

In Ennis case, if he did not enjoy sex with Alma, then why have so many kids??

Many gay men want sex with a lady, as well as men!! And they love both!!

Once Alma wanted out of sex, Ennis had no choice, right? No matter which door he would have used!!

Right?

Hugs!

O.K here come the typos cause I am laughing so much.I agree plenty of straight couples have sex through the back door,in Greece it is jokingly referred to as the greek contraception, it is so popular.I think Ennis only had 2 kids, not so many I think.Also wasnt it Ennis who decided to opt out of sex rather than use a rubber.I think Alma was still willing but did not want any more kids,as she thought Ennis could not support them.I still think he breathed a sigh of relief.After all if he still really wanted sex with Allma he could have still used the back door,no risk of kids that way,and no rubbers either.the no rubbers was an excuse or get out of it clause for him.
I also do not think he had a particulrly high sex drive.
I do concede gay men can love sex with both sexes,particularly if they have a high sex drive.I think for Ennis sex was very much linked to love,more so than with Jack.But maybe I am just a romantic.

[Artiste]

Thanks optom!

In what you say, you bring up something new:
O.K here come the typos cause I am laughing so much.I agree plenty of straight couples have sex through the back door,in Greece it is jokingly referred to as the greek contraception, it is so popular.I think Ennis only had 2 kids, not so many I think.Also wasnt it Ennis who decided to opt out of sex rather than use a rubber.I think Alma was still willing but did not want any more kids,as she thought Ennis could not support them.I still think he breathed a sigh of relief.After all if he still really wanted sex with Allma he could have still used the back door,no risk of kids that way,and no rubbers either.the no rubbers was an excuse or get out of it clause for him.
I also do not think he had a particulrly high sex drive.
I do concede gay men can love sex with both sexes,particularly if they have a high sex drive.I think for Ennis sex was very much linked to love,more so than with Jack.But maybe I am just a romantic.
 

......

Fiona (optom), you bring up sex drive!!  Maybe that is why, Ennis not having much of a sex drive: that we do NOT see Ennis and Jack not having sex anymore ?? In the BM movie!!

Hugs!!

[Front-Ranger]

In Ennis case, if he did not enjoy sex with Alma, then why have so many kids??

Because he wanted to prove to the world that he was a potent man, and the visible proof of that is children.

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

I was just puzzled by your word: potent!! I did think immediately: Why not just sex with Alma, his wife!!
And then, re-seing your words associated with: children!! So, I remember now that Ennis loved his children!!
So, you are right!!

So, that is Ennis Easter gift: life: children!! ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

Because he wanted to prove to the world that he was a potent man, and the visible proof of that is children.

exactly correct! you cut right to the heart of it! 

[brokeplex]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

I was just puzzled by your word: potent!! I did think immediately: Why not just sex with Alma, his wife!!
And then, re-seing your words associated with: children!! So, I remember now that Ennis loved his children!!
So, you are right!!

So, that is Ennis Easter gift: life: children!! ??
Au revoir,
hugs!

yes, if one wished to look only at the most positive interpretation of those passages in the ss or those scenes in the film. however, I think that if you probe deeper you will find other darker meanings.

[Artiste]

Thanks to you two!!

Is children Ennis' Easter ?

Even if Ennis is gay or bi, he is OK with me for having children, and too having been married!

Brokeplex, is that your  darker meaning?

You lost me!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks to you two!!

Is children Ennis' Easter ?

Even if Ennis is gay or bi, he is OK with me for having children, and too having been married!

Brokeplex, is that your  darker meaning?

You lost me!

Au revoir,
hugs!

the "darker" meaning is stated in Front Ranger's post, which I agree with.

[Artiste]

Brokeplex:
I re-read Front-Ranger and yours, and I am still LOST !!

What darker meaning??

Having kids is a dark thing to do?

Not in my book! Is that it?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

"Because he wanted to prove to the world that he was a potent man, and the visible proof of that is children". from Front Ranger

it is a 'darker motive' because Ennis is using procreation as a shield to protect him from visibility as a gay man. he is fundamentally using Alma for ulterior reasons, while Alma is in love with Ennis. that is a very dark situation Artiste.

[Front-Ranger]

Toward the end of the movie, not the story, Ennis came to appreciate and take comfort in his children and to feel the "reassurance of life's continuance." But he also felt the pain of the loss of his life's love, Jack, and suffered because he was alone while his children "had it all before them, and nothing was wrong."

Another darker side of the story is that, while Jack and Ennis were on Brokeback Mountain, time didn't exist. They had their own garden of Eden. But when Aguirre interfered and told them what roles they were to play, they accepted his judgement. Also, when the sheep got tangled up they endeavored to straighten them out according to the rules, thinking "what if we have to work for him again?" When Aguirre ordered the sheep to be brought down from the mountain, Ennis acquiesced, even though he felt that he was in a "slow-motion but headlong, irreversible fall," a fall from grace. He rejected Jack and walked away from their life together, even though his gut told him not to. Time began for them then, and they could never go back to Brokeback.

This echoes the story of creation, a story that begins before recorded time. Time began when the egg of the universe shatters and time begins. The egg is the same as the oeuvre, or oestre, which became Easter. When the egg falls into time, the physical universe materializes. This ancient concept is echoed in many stories and religions, but I'll just repeat one that seems appropriate for today:

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All of the king's horses and all of the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

[Artiste]

Wow, brokeplex makes me ponder!

And you too Front-Ranger!

Then you made me laugh hard with surprising me with:

Humpty Dumpty story!! ... so much so that I could NOT spell his names!!

I must sit on the throne and think like the statue of what you both say!!

À demain... will answer tomorrow!

Hugs, hugs!

[brokeplex]

Toward the end of the movie, not the story, Ennis came to appreciate and take comfort in his children and to feel the "reassurance of life's continuance." But he also felt the pain of the loss of his life's love, Jack, and suffered because he was alone while his children "had it all before them, and nothing was wrong."

Another darker side of the story is that, while Jack and Ennis were on Brokeback Mountain, time didn't exist. They had their own garden of Eden. But when Aguirre interfered and told them what roles they were to play, they accepted his judgement. Also, when the sheep got tangled up they endeavored to straighten them out according to the rules, thinking "what if we have to work for him again?" When Aguirre ordered the sheep to be brought down from the mountain, Ennis acquiesced, even though he felt that he was in a "slow-motion but headlong, irreversible fall," a fall from grace. He rejected Jack and walked away from their life together, even though his gut told him not to. Time began for them then, and they could never go back to Brokeback.

This echoes the story of creation, a story that begins before recorded time. Time began when the egg of the universe shatters and time begins. The egg is the same as the oeuvre, or oestre, which became Easter. When the egg falls into time, the physical universe materializes. This ancient concept is echoed in many stories and religions, but I'll just repeat one that seems appropriate for today:

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All of the king's horses and all of the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

excellent post. I think it is correct that time stood still for the boys while they were in their own private Arcadia, I can see the watch given to Ennis by Aguirre stopping temporarily. Aguirre returned to the scene, and metaphorically he started up the watch again. Aguirre always in control of the watch. 

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

You say:
This echoes the story of creation, a story that begins before recorded time. Time began when the egg of the universe shatters and time begins. The egg is the same as the oeuvre, or oestre, which became Easter. When the egg falls into time, the physical universe materializes. This ancient concept is echoed in many stories and religions, but I'll just repeat one that seems appropriate for today:

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All of the king's horses and all of the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.
 
 
 
 
.....

Front-Ranger, brokeplex and to all too:
Please say more about the Humpty Dumpty story.
I do not think that get it yet!

Did Ennis became fat because he had a wife, some children, plus Jack (on the side)??

Ennis did fall... because he let Jack go once both (Ennis and Jack) came down from the Brokeback Mountain heaven?

And, again, Ennis, keeps falling because his wife saw him kissing a man (Jack)? She (Alma his wife) gets rid of her husband, divorsing him!!

Etc,?

Au revoir,
hugs! Note: I think that I get that Easter egg thing, but isn't that a myth like paradise in the bible is since its associated with sin as a result of loving oneself and another person??

 

[Front-Ranger]

I think that I get that Easter egg thing, but isn't that a myth like paradise in the bible is since its associated with sin as a result of loving oneself and another person??
 

Yes, I think you're right that it is a myth, but I don't know about "sin." I am not very clear about the concept of sin...does it have to do with innate ideas about right and wrong, or is it more about the order that people are trying to impose on other people so that the ruling people can be more comfortable and secure? I'm leaning toward the latter.

The thing about time is that it flows. An interesting sentence in the story describes the ascent of the mountain:

Ennis and Jack, the dogs, the horses and mules, a thousand ewes and their lambs flowed up the trail like dirty water through the timber and out above the tree line into the great flowery meadows and the coursing, endless wind.

Everything flowed UP the trail, and backwards away from time, into the endless wind, where time did not exist.

[brokeplex]

Yes, I think you're right that it is a myth, but I don't know about "sin." I am not very clear about the concept of sin...does it have to do with innate ideas about right and wrong, or is it more about the order that people are trying to impose on other people so that the ruling people can be more comfortable and secure? I'm leaning toward the latter.

The thing about time is that it flows. An interesting sentence in the story describes the ascent of the mountain:
 

Everything flowed UP the trail, and backwards away from time, into the endless wind, where time did not exist.

I do like that sentence.

[Artiste]

Thanks to all of you!!

Is Easter a sin in the BM movie, or otherwise??

Like of different parts... of the BM movie can be considered about that!!

Let's start with this:
FIRSTLY
If I consider, Ennis and Jack up the BM mountain as Easter, then they were in sin or otherwise?

What do you think?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

As I was thinking about Aguirre and reading this, I had an epiphany (and epiphany was just two days ago!). We see the three crosses as Ennis alights from the truck at the beginning of his sojourn. If two of the crosses are for the "two deuces," that is, Ennis and Jack, then who is the third cross for??

[Monika]

As I was thinking about Aguirre and reading this, I had an epiphany (and epiphany was just two days ago!). We see the three crosses as Ennis alights from the truck at the beginning of his sojourn. If two of the crosses are for the "two deuces," that is, Ennis and Jack, then who is the third cross for??

Humanity?

[Artiste]

Front-Ranger:
       then who is the third cross for??                 
...........

Did you think of an answer yet?

Possible like buffy suggests?

[Front-Ranger]

Time to revive this wonderful thread!

Front-Ranger:
       then who is the third cross for??                 
...........

Did you think of an answer yet?

Possible like buffy suggests?

[Artiste]

Merci  beaucoup Front-Ranger !

You are right !

Plus, I am starting to figure out that the Brokeback Mountain
is an Easter story!

Do you too?

So glad that you are posting Front-Ranger!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Lynne]

I love revisiting this old thread.

Del, I did not remember your vehement denial of BBM as an Easter story and my favorite symbol, the scales, specifically. I will try to giveThis more thought this season.

[Artiste]

Can the BrokebackMountain story and/or movie be seen in many ways as an Easter  one?

[Front-Ranger]

Can the BrokebackMountain story and/or movie be seen in many ways as an Easter  one?

I agree with you, Artiste, I think you are egg-xactly right!!

As long as we all keep in mind the fact that the Easter story predates Christianity by probably a thousand years or so!

[Artiste]

Merci Front-Ranger!

How is that?

Or should I say how was that?

Any different to-day, and to relate to the Brokeback Mountain Annie's story and/or film?


Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Before it was a Christian holiday, Easter was a pagan celebration of rebirth and reawakening. In fact, Easter is named for the Greek goddess Oesther.

I'm reminded of the scene in the grocery store where Ennis is crazy to get away of domestic restraints because "the heifers all decided to calve at once." The jars of peanuts are stacked up on the shelves and Alma pulls one out, causing an explosion of peanuts all over the floor. Beans and legumes are ancient Asian symbols of virility. What a subtle yet relevant way of depicting Ennis' overflowing desire and fecundity!!

[Artiste]

Merci Front-Ranger!

You say:
       Before it was a Christian holiday, Easter was a pagan celebration of rebirth and reawakening. In fact, Easter is named for the Greek goddess Oesther.

I'm reminded of the scene in the grocery store where Ennis is crazy to get away of domestic restraints because "the heifers all decided to calve at once." The jars of peanuts are stacked up on the shelves and Alma pulls one out, causing an explosion of peanuts all over the floor. Beans and legumes are ancient Asian symbols of virility. What a subtle yet relevant way of depicting Ennis' overflowing desire and fecundity!!                       
..........

Front-Ranger, you sure write beautifully!
And you do too note the irony of Ennis too with him desiring to go quickly to see Jack !!
So, Jack is his young calf ? And that way, Easter is Spring for both Ennis and Jack as they get together??


Au revoir,
hugs!

[LauraGigs]

Your point about the nuts spilling all over the floor is interesting, Lee.  Alma thinks that she must cope with the cleanup all alone, but along comes Monroe who says "I'll take care of it".  A great parallel with how their lives end up.

[Artiste]

Merci laura !

yes, that show how nuts the situation is?

And it notes also how their lives will be different, becoming to turn in other routes??

For all of them

Au revoir,
hugs!  But where is the Easter eggs?

[Front-Ranger]

Another sign of spring in this scene is when Alma Jr. tugs at the arm of her mother, looking up at her earnestly with her blue eyes, saying "Mama, I need crayons." Who doesn't need more color in their life during these gloomy days of early spring?

[LauraGigs]

[hardcore Brokie moment]

The eyes on the child actress were green, weren't they?

[LauraGigs]

Oops just peeked at a still.  Looked blue.   

[Front-Ranger]

he,he, they might have been green in other scenes, Laura, but in that scene they were bright blue! As Ang told us on April 1, "contacts."

In fact, several scenes, including that one, had abnormally bright colors, especially blue and red. They stand out to me because Wyoming is, well, not that colorful.

Another touch of Easter in that scene was little Jenny's fuzzy coat. Wrapped up in a bright pink, green, and red jacket, she looked like a fuzzy Easter egg!!

[Artiste]

Merci Front-Ranger!

I wish I had you to observe, see my paintings!
Indeed, you are very observant!
You should work for Lee!! ??


Since you say about the child who said:
     "Mama, I need crayons."           
.........
Maybe that is where seriouscrayons
did think to create her nom-de-plume?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Front-Ranger, since you say:
       As long as we all keep in mind the fact that the Easter story predates Christianity by probably a thousand years or so!         
............

May I ask what is the difference between then and now?


Au revoir,
hugs!

[LauraGigs]

Annie points out (almost going out of her way to do so) that the sounds and smells of his children remind Ennis of "fecundity and life's continuance" — which is what Easter and related pagan spring rituals are all about.

It's also interesting that Jack and Ennis, as herders and ranch hands, are in the business of fecundity and life's continuance since they care for generations of animals, ensuring their wellbeing and fertility (animal husbandry) — as in the grocery scene where Ennis must go attend to "all the heifers calving at once".

[Artiste]

Merci LauraGigs !

Your post is interesting!

More?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Another scene which reminds me of Easter is the very end of the movie, where Ennis departs from the scene, but his view, the open window, remains, with the blue sky, the tan road, and in between them, the green green barley growing. It is a scene full of hope, which is surprising since Ennis has "lost" everything. He has no hope, not enough furniture, his lover is dead, he's divorced, he's just renounced a job in the Tetons, and his first-born child is about to leave him to go out and get married. Yet there is hope, because of the promise of Nature and life. There is hope for the future, and for future generations, and for us.

In between the closet and the window is a blue light reflecting the sky outside. Is it the spirit of Jack, a symbol, or an optical illusion? As usual, Ang Lee does not say, does not impress the sight upon us. It's just there, for us to take or leave according to our needs and desires.

[Artiste]

Merci Front-Ranger !

Since you say:
     Easter is the very end of the movie, where Ennis departs from the scene, but his view, the open window, remains, with the blue sky, the tan road, and in between them, the green green barley growing. It is a scene full of hope, which is surprising since Ennis has "lost" everything. He has no hope, not enough furniture, his lover is dead, he's divorced, he's just renounced a job in the Tetons, and his first-born child is about to leave him to go out and get married. Yet there is hope, because of the promise of Nature and life. There is hope for the future, and for future generations, and for us.
                 

.........
Are you saying that is too the result of Easter?
Hope and presence of life go together??[/b]

Au revoir,
hugs! Happy Holy Tuesday!

[Front-Ranger]

Resurrecting this old thread in time for Holy Week.

The minister told us about the sixth miracle of Jesus last Sunday and I had to laugh... He gave sight to a blind man. He spit onto the ground and made mud with the saliva and earth. He placed the mud on the man's eyelids, told him to go wash in the pond. And when the man did so, he could see.

Since it was Palm Sunday, we also discussed Jesus' entry into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey. An unbroken colt. Yup, Jesus was a cowboy, all right!

[Front-Ranger]

One of my fav pics.  But I'm not sure how Jack as a bull rider is anywhere near equivalent to Jesus riding on a donkey (If a "colt' was 'unbroken', Jesus wouldn't have been riding it).

Sure enough, Della. But Jesus commanded his disciples to go into the town and find a donkey that had an unbroken colt beside it, and bring the colt back to him. If anyone asked, they were to say that "The Lord has need of it." By riding into Jerusalem on the unbroken colt, Jesus was fulfilling one of the many prophecies about him that were made by the Old Testament prophets. It may have been Zachariah.