As Easter nears, no Easter in Annie's story or the BM movie?? But??

[delalluvia]

Thanks dellalluvia!

1-  On the other hand, some viewers think that it is that or likewise. I do think that Jack is STILL alive and some other(s) did or do too... like I am thinking!!

Um, OK.  But Annie Proulx wrote a tragedy.  Most tragedies end in death.  So I can't really see Jack living.  He is quite dead, his ashes turned over to his parents.
........

2-  So there are some, MORE evbident ones?

The being sick scene right before Ennis gets married scene is one that springs to mind.

4-   Who says NOT because of religious implications? It could NOT be her, since she mentions: religions, may I suggest!! Why does she quotes religions??

Well, probably because I didn't get the impression she was writing a religious story.  She was writing a tragic love story about two men who fall in love.  To the mainstream religion, there is nothing less religious than that.

5-  To that, who considers that as that? It is the culture of the area?? Of the cowboys? Their prejudices?

The cowboys.  It's a historical prejudice.

6-  To that, if we consider gay men below that of the straight men in USA culture, then us (since I am a gay man) is like that to the eyes of some or many OTHER Americans!! ?? Therefore, Annie guides us readers/viewers right away to DRAMA!! Something is NOT right in such society... tension, non-acceptance, etc., which will lead maybe to death... as to likely or maybe murdered because a gay man is different!!.... to a straight ??

Not sure if she meant to imply that, or just that these two guys were such losers and so poor this was the only job they could get - and they barely got it.

[brokeplex]

Good point. The religious references are a bit more subtle, such as Ennis asking Jack what the Pentecost is -- just hours before their own "Pentecostal fire".   

the calendar dates  when they were on the mountain talking about the Pentecost (June?) may also coincides with the feast of the Pentecost in the church calendar.

[Artiste]

Thanks again delalluvia!

1-

Um, OK.  But Annie Proulx wrote a tragedy.  Most tragedies end in death.  So I can't really see Jack living.  He is quite dead, his ashes turned over to his parents

...
Sure, that Annie story is a tragedy! So is Christ death, right? All christians carry crosses, their cross, is the saying?? That their tragedy will come... I guess to everyone?? Annie foresees gay death as that will happen maybe to Jack being gay or likewise, iand she details at the start the murder of a gay man because he was gay - what a tragic note!! Ennis, will he be killed because he loves too? - He does fear very much!!

(I do not know about muslims or other islamics, jews, etc., and non-religious, carrying crosses, as their symbol, does anyone?? - so having said that, then Annie talks about christianity, right??) The conflicts within and without (outside) christianity, maybe??

2-

The being sick scene right before Ennis gets married scene is one that springs to mind.

 

...
You lost me there. Which sick scene?

3-

Well, probably because I didn't get the impression she was writing a religious story.  She was writing a tragic love story about two men who fall in love.  To the mainstream religion, there is nothing less religious than that.

 

.......

Yes and no. Yes, to some, it is the love between two men; to others, it is not nescessary that!! - or not that at all... they view and say!! Here, it depends, on the viewer's culture, experiences, point of views, projection, proofs he or she found so far, etc.; to clarify, instruct and educate. There are many views here as to that, you know that??

Of course, it depends too on the viewer's perspective, the light(s) shown on these 2: Ennis and Jack!!

Plus, if you view that Ennis is Jack and Jack is Ennis??

Etc.??

..........

4-

 The cowboys.  It's a historical prejudice.

 

...

OK, I accept that! So is the prejudice against gay men?? Right?? As so by many or the general population... so far?? Bibles, etc.?? So is the prejudice against lesbians, etc.!! Unfortunately!!

..
5-

Not sure if she meant to imply that, or just that these two guys were such losers and so poor this was the only job they could get - and they barely got it.
  

Surely, Annie does imply that, since she is a master-writer!! Every word and expressions count!! You know that being a writer, right??  Look at to-day, the so-poor living in the streets in the USA (and other countries), where half of the former American soldiers live in the streets in the USA, and does the Federal Government help them after having used them?? If so, barely!! There is prejudice there, always against the poorest and its getting worst, right??


Annie talks about many issues right?? I figure the women rights, that the BM movie does too, continuing Annie's story!! Do you?

This film seems to be Easter in many ways...

hugs!

[delalluvia]

Thanks again delalluvia!

1- ...
Sure, that Annie story is a tragedy! So is Christ death, right? All christians carry crosses, their cross, is the saying?? That their tragedy will come... I guess to everyone?? Annie foresees gay death as that will happen maybe to Jack being gay or likewise, iand she details at the start the murder of a gay man because he was gay - what a tragic note!! Ennis, will he be killed because he loves too? - He does fear very much!!

Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy?  It was his destiny, wasn't it?  He was put here to die for everyone's sins?  There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right?  And then he was reborn again.  I don't call that a tragedy.

2- ...
You lost me there. Which sick scene?

Ennis in the alley, throwing up.  Remember?

3- Yes and no. Yes, to some, it is the love between two men; to others, it is not nescessary that!! - or not that at all... they view and say!! Here, it depends, on the viewer's culture, experiences, point of views, projection, proofs he or she found so far, etc.; to clarify, instruct and educate. There are many views here as to that, you know that??

Yes, but I believe - and so did the actors and writers - that it is a universal love story.  That's what the tagline of the movie says, right?  "Love is a Force of Nature"?  So to me that says that first and foremost, the story is about love.   

4- ...OK, I accept that! So is the prejudice against gay men?? Right?? As so by many or the general population... so far?? Bibles, etc.?? So is the prejudice against lesbians, etc.!! Unfortunately!!

Yes, but I'm not sure of your point.  There has always been prejudice against gay men and women.  It pre-dates the Bible era.

5- Surely, Annie does imply that, since she is a master-writer!! Every word and expressions count!!

Well, the story and the movie are different.  Annie doesn't write about 3 crosses or scales in a grocery store, or Jack carrying a sheep.  In the story, he's carrying a dog.  What does that say?  She doesn't even write about the church wedding at the end - that was the movie, not the story.  So no, I don't think so.

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

It is much joy for me to see your views!
...

Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy?  It was his destiny, wasn't it?  He was put here to die for everyone's sins?  There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right?  And then he was reborn again.  I don't call that a tragedy.

 

...
May I say a tragedy as well as a non-tragedy; yes both. That is a puzzle for me!! Some of it, I have solved... much not yet!! I suppose the trajedy comes first? Firstly, since a person does NOT know hope to cope with life and makes mystakes (what you/I/others call maybe sin), and once, a person realizes that someone is better like LOVE is, than it is not a tragady, but HEAVEN! You sure make me think this morning, even if I have not slept that well for 3 nights (mother's dog woke me up 5 times last night)!! And your expression... sentence or description reminds me of christianity which say that one is born with sin - is that it?? I do NOT nescessarily accept that: everyone is born in sin and/or with sin as is sinful!! I forget which French educator said otherwise (oh was it Rousseau?)! I agree with both.

When I go into the forest and see a bird which has never seen a human (I), it (the bird) is NOT afraid of me, and it does not want to harm me, but when I do NOT think of BOTH of us (bird and I), then something happens... as I avance towards it... because I become egoist wanting to see more as to grab more now (I saw but now I attack because I want to grab, and therefore I become an instrument which could be a gun to the bird, so the bird now fears and protects itself and goes away - or its parents gets me away!!

I learned my lesson from that! So now, I let the bird be. Last year, a mother bird made a nest in my shed, so I did not bother it: I just looked at it many, many, many wondrous times and we both respected each other!! I loved the bird and the bird loved me!! It made the nest here, because likely since the back new neighbours are bad adding poisson to kill on purpose squirrels, etc., for instance!! Birds have brains and so do humans!! WE can all LOVE in this earth paradise!!

Maybe I lost track here? Or I lost you? Or you are lost... with all my words? Do you understand what I mean by the above?

I will answer you further on that and other lines of yours later too. Be happy to do so, as you instruct me... as to make me think and better myself!! I am grateful!

I do not know (all the whys as to why some persons commit murder) and am learning to try to help some human(s) and myself, so we can all better the world!!

Christianity derrives from the jewish books and some others. It is true that we say that Christ was on the cross, and that can be viewed as a tragedy? Was it not a tragedy that the gay man in the BM movie was murdered because he was gay (of the... two tough old birds!!)?  Was it not a tragedy that Jack was to be murdered and probably murdered because he was gay or something like that?

A few years ago, I checked on something that one of my brothers told me: muslims and jews are cousins. So I asked the muslim head when he came to see me at one of my art gallery exhibitions and I found out that he said that too; so, I asked than why all the killlings, the war?? He did not provide me an answer to that! He was so surprised that even if he kept insisting that I become a muslim, that to me there were not difference between his religion and others!! He kept talking with me for hours since he was amazed that I kept surprising him with things that he taught that only his religion knew about!!

.........

Is it destiny to be murdered because one is a gay person?
............

Was Christ reborn? That is a saying or a hope?  Was Jack reborn? Does Jack still live?

.........

Much can be said?

At least Easter makes us think and become better??

Later... and for now must eat my breakfast, awaiting your news, from you and from all,

hugs!!

[Artiste]

Oh, that reminds me, what is mortification?

Does that have anything to do with Easter?

Is that in the BM movie? Somehow?

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Annie placed an accent on Easter?


She talks about life and death!! Like:

A- There are at least what like one or two (or more) birth scenes in the BM movie?

B- There seems to be one or two (or more) death scenes too: 1- the scene of the dead murdered gay gay; and 2- the scenes where there is talk about Jack being passed away!!

There are NO Christmas scenes!??  Does that say something?  There are life and death scenes or talk, and those accent the story!! Makes it drama!!

Because life and death are opposite ends (in a way), therefore Annie tries to make her story an Easter one??

Hope?? Easter is Hope??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Easter nears... now!

And I do still consider the BM as Easter!!

You see that too?

In which way?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy?  It was his destiny, wasn't it?  He was put here to die for everyone's sins?  There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right?  And then he was reborn again.  I don't call that a tragedy.

Ennis in the alley, throwing up.  Remember?

Yes, but I believe - and so did the actors and writers - that it is a universal love story.   That's what the tagline of the movie says, right?  "Love is a Force of Nature"?  So to me that says that first and foremost, the story is about love.   

Yes, but I'm not sure of your point.  There has always been prejudice against gay men and women.  It pre-dates the Bible era.

Well, the story and the movie are different.  Annie doesn't write about 3 crosses or scales in a grocery store, or Jack carrying a sheep.  In the story, he's carrying a dog.  What does that say?  She doesn't even write about the church wedding at the end - that was the movie, not the story.  So no, I don't think so.

the film has many more elements of universality than the ss, because the screenplay for the film was heteronormed over the original AP material. The ss is a much more gay specific work, of course as love and frustrations of love and denial being universal elements one could also say the ss has elements of a  "universal love story". I think the film was definitely made into a "universal love story" in order to better market the product. That may be neither good nor bad, but I think it is a reality.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex. Since you bring up that, may I ask:

Easter is considered universal, yes!!

So maybe this heteronormed aspect of the film, makes it MORE Easter like?

Or LESS??

To you and/or to others too??

Au revoir,
hugs!