TOTW 06/08: Did Ennis die at the day described in the prologue?

[Penthesilea]

Morning, BetterMostians!

Before we delve into this week's topic, I'd like to post a refresher: you are welcome to make suggestions for a TOTW! You got a specific scene, which never got totally clear to you? Maybe a small line from the SS you continue to mull over?  Or you wonder about a character's motivation in a specific moment? Or maybe you're just curious about your fellow Brokies' opinions about something related to the movie or story? - PM me or Katherine (Ineedcrayons), we're happy to put your question into focus for a week. 


Last week I strayed a bit on other BBM related sites and stumbled across a theory/thought which never crossed my mind before and which I've never seen mentioned anywhere. I'm not sure on which site I read it, but think it was on IMDB. This is another question we won't be able to 'solve' in any way because we just have too few information, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it anyway.

Did Ennis die at the day described in the prologue?

[Jeff Wrangler]

Did Ennis die at the day described in the prologue?

No. But it sure would be interesting to read why someone would think that.

[Lynne]

This is a really intriguing idea and I can see why it might occur to someone, I think.

I don't have my short story handy (bad Brokie!) but it seems to me that AP goes to great length to describe the details of the morning as beginning like any other for Ennis - his routine of reheating old coffee, peeing in the sink.  One event that makes the day different is that he is going to be moving on and might have to stay with his married oldest daughter.  But you get the impression that his work is largely unreliable and that even this may be a repeat of something that's happened in the past.

The bright spot is Jack's appearance in his dreams which he can use to 'stoke the day' and he hoards them, panel by panel.  I have the impression that it is a special day because Jack does appear to Ennis in dreams - that this not an everyday occurrence.  And there are people who think that departed loved ones communicate with those about to die, perhaps to offer comfort, or ease the journey, or perhaps it's the fragile but distinct demarcation between life and death becoming blurry...

If you couple the metaphor of Ennis packing up and moving on with Jack's appearance in his dreams, I think you could make the argument that this is Ennis' last day.

Fascinating question - thank you, Chrissi!

[Penthesilea]

This topic was just a passing comment, mentioned only in a side-sentence of a post which then moved on to another subject matter.
At first, I was like hunh? 

But the question stuck with me. I took my copy of the STS book and read the prologue again with this question in mind.

The prologue begins and ends with the wind rocking Ennis's trailer. And in between the wind is mentioned a third time. We associate the wind with Jack, so we can interpret the wind accompanying Ennis as Jack's spirit. The wind is a powerful presence in this short part of the story, and it is depicted as very strong, as rocking the trailer, hissing, booming, roaring. In short, it makes a lot of noise, almost like it would call out to Ennis. Is the wind (=Jack) calling Ennis on this day? Many people believe/are waiting for that departed loved ones are calling them "into the other world", when their time has come.


Another point is Ennis dwelling on his dream of Jack: "...lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, ..." Ennis sitting alone in his trailer, slipping deep into the world of his dreams and Jack calling him.

A third point is Annie's sentence "It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer." Having read Annie's other short stories in Close Range, I fully believe she often intersperses hints of coming events into her stories and especially foreshadows coming doom. So this could be a hint.

One last aspect (for now) is Ennis's age. We don't know how much time has passed since the end of the story, but Ennis's belly and pubic hair is grey. I don't believe Ennis will live to be a very old man. We've discussed this long time ago (hey Jeff, it was you who was very close to my own feelings reagrding this  ); I think due to poor health care, too much alcohol and cigarettes, poor diet, physically hard work and simply not caring about himself after Jack's death, Ennis will not live very long.

[Penthesilea]

The bright spot is Jack's appearance in his dreams which he can use to 'stoke the day' and he hoards them, panel by panel.  I have the impression that it is a special day because Jack does appear to Ennis in dreams - that this not an everyday occurrence.  And there are people who think that departed loved ones communicate with those about to die, perhaps to offer comfort, or ease the journey, or perhaps it's the fragile but distinct demarcation between life and death becoming blurry...

Yes, that's what I meant when I mentioned Ennis dwelling on his dreams. You expressed better what I meant than I did 

If you couple the metaphor of Ennis packing up and moving on with Jack's appearance in his dreams, I think you could make the argument that this is Ennis' last day.

Yes, the packing. At least a part of Ennis' life definitely ends on this day. He has to get out there on this very day.

Fascinating question - thank you, Chrissi!

Thank you  . At first, I found very far off myself. But after thinking about it for a few days I can't dismiss it completely as a possibility.

[optom3]

This is a really intriguing idea and I can see why it might occur to someone, I think.

I don't have my short story handy (bad Brokie!) but it seems to me that AP goes to great length to describe the details of the morning as beginning like any other for Ennis - his routine of reheating old coffee, peeing in the sink.  One event that makes the day different is that he is going to be moving on and might have to stay with his married oldest daughter.  But you get the impression that his work is largely unreliable and that even this may be a repeat of something that's happened in the past.

The bright spot is Jack's appearance in his dreams which he can use to 'stoke the day' and he hoards them, panel by panel.  I have the impression that it is a special day because Jack does appear to Ennis in dreams - that this not an everyday occurrence.  And there are people who think that departed loved ones communicate with those about to die, perhaps to offer comfort, or ease the journey, or perhaps it's the fragile but distinct demarcation between life and death becoming blurry...

If you couple the metaphor of Ennis packing up and moving on with Jack's appearance in his dreams, I think you could make the argument that this is Ennis' last day.

Fascinating question - thank you, Chrissi!

I agree and a few things in the prologue make me feel that.

At the start The wind which is ever present leads to the following,"the shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft"

Ennis is for once happy "suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"

Ennis is moving on again and as the shirts shudder does that mean Jack is moving with him,or is Ennis moving to jack.

What is even more interesting is that at the end of the prologue the wind "dies" "leaving a temporary silence"Perhaps a stillness and peace of Ennis's heart at long last.

Is ennis about to find peace,following a brief moment of pleasure. There seem so many clues,it could be bad on the highway,the shudder of the shirts,the moment of pleasure and then the silence.

In Proulxs' writing,no detail ever seems superfluous so I am guessing there is so much to be implied from that short paragraph.But as always it is left to us the reader to draw our own conclusion.

Personally I would love to think that the shuddering shirts, (jacks immortal presence)the dream,sfollowed by silence,might mean that at long long last,Ennis will finally be joined with Jack.
 I have heard so many times of people who have witnesssed death being struck,by the complete "silence" of the moment,preceeded by a brief moment of peace/joy.

But then ,could be I am just a hopeless romantic

[jstephens9]

This is a very fascinating question. I always felt something by that paragraph, but I have never been sure what. I am going to read it again and then give my thoughts. I have never considered it meaning Ennis' death that day, but it is always possible.

[BelAir]

well, my off the cuff opinion is, "no"...

I'll be interested to read other's thoughts.

I haven't read the ss in a long time, so I am just going on visceral feelings vs. literary proof.  It seems to me, that the things Annie describes are things Ennis has been through before, and will go through time and time again...  I guess I think if he were to die, I would have felt more closure at the end of the ss, rather than such desperation...  Also, living is 'standing it' whereas, death, in a way, is 'fixin it' and at the end of the story I feel like Ennis is standin not fixin it (not to imply certainly that I am advocating his death as a way of fixing matters).  Also, no reason not to think that Ennis may have had to live with his daughter previously, between jobs?

[delalluvia]

No. But it sure would be interesting to read why someone would think that.

Ditto.  I can't see any reason why anyone would think so, but I'm reading along.

[brokeplex]

Morning, BetterMostians!

Before we delve into this week's topic, I'd like to post a refresher: you are welcome to make suggestions for a TOTW! You got a specific scene, which never got totally clear to you? Maybe a small line from the SS you continue to mull over?  Or you wonder about a character's motivation in a specific moment? Or maybe you're just curious about your fellow Brokies' opinions about something related to the movie or story? - PM me or Katherine (Ineedcrayons), we're happy to put your question into focus for a week. 


Last week I strayed a bit on other BBM related sites and stumbled across a theory/thought which never crossed my mind before and which I've never seen mentioned anywhere. I'm not sure on which site I read it, but think it was on IMDB. This is another question we won't be able to 'solve' in any way because we just have too few information, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it anyway.

Did Ennis die at the day described in the prologue?

I honestly don't see any indications that Ennis died that day. I recall Ennis was concerned about loading the trailer, looking for a new job, and moving in temporarily with his married daughter - I guess Alma, Jr. He was a bit depressed by the thought of those activities, but knew that if he kept Jack in his mind during the day, it would "stoke" his spirits. That doesn't sound like someone who was one the brink of death.

It would seem that the day described in the prologue is many years in the future from 1983 when Jack died. Perhaps AP meant us to think that it is in 1997, around the time she wrote the story. Ennis is described in the prologue as having gray hairs in his lower abdomen, that doesn't usually happen to men until they are in late middle age or early retirement years. I am in my early 50's and I am just now getting a few gray hairs on my chest, all other areas on me, except for the gray in the temples in my hairline, are still nice and toasty brown.

Remember also that AP indicates that a part of her inspiration for writing her ss, was watching an elderly man in his early 60's watching younger men play pool. She was struck by his attention to the guys and not the gals in the room and wondered if he was "country gay". I think this was the start of her purpose in BM, to tell what would happen to a man who was "country gay" and lived to be elderly. She wanted to tell his story.

[nakymaton]

Perhaps the prologue sounds as though Ennis is dying because Ennis has already died a bit, inside? There's something ghost-like about Ennis at the beginning and end of the story. (Not the part about pissing in the sink. I'm not sure if a sink-pissing ghost would be scary or funny or just unhygienic.)

[retropian]

This topic was just a passing comment, mentioned only in a side-sentence of a post which then moved on to another subject matter.
At first, I was like hunh? 

But the question stuck with me. I took my copy of the STS book and read the prologue again with this question in mind.

The prologue begins and ends with the wind rocking Ennis's trailer. And in between the wind is mentioned a third time. We associate the wind with Jack, so we can interpret the wind accompanying Ennis as Jack's spirit. The wind is a powerful presence in this short part of the story, and it is depicted as very strong, as rocking the trailer, hissing, booming, roaring. In short, it makes a lot of noise, almost like it would call out to Ennis. Is the wind (=Jack) calling Ennis on this day? Many people believe/are waiting for that departed loved ones are calling them "into the other world", when their time has come.


Another point is Ennis dwelling on his dream of Jack: "...lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, ..." Ennis sitting alone in his trailer, slipping deep into the world of his dreams and Jack calling him.

A third point is Annie's sentence "It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer." Having read Annie's other short stories in Close Range, I fully believe she often intersperses hints of coming events into her stories and especially foreshadows coming doom. So this could be a hint.

One last aspect (for now) is Ennis's age. We don't know how much time has passed since the end of the story, but Ennis's belly and pubic hair is grey. I don't believe Ennis will live to be a very old man. We've discussed this long time ago (hey Jeff, it was you who was very close to my own feelings regarding this  ); I think due to poor health care, too much alcohol and cigarettes, poor diet, physically hard work and simply not caring about himself after Jack's death, Ennis will not live very long.

Wow. This is an interesting and fresh idea. I was thinking that the line "It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer." might be a foreshadowing of an accident. Ennis's dream is his vision of paradise. So perhaps that was Ennis's last day. We'll have to ask Annie Proulx!

[belbbmfan]

Perhaps the prologue sounds as though Ennis is dying because Ennis has already died a bit, inside? There's something ghost-like about Ennis at the beginning and end of the story. (Not the part about pissing in the sink. I'm not sure if a sink-pissing ghost would be scary or funny or just unhygienic.)

Well, I read the messages on this thread and was going to post a serious reply and then I read this.....What can I say? Thanks for the laugh!   

I'll post a serious reply later, promise!

[mouk]

There was a fascinating discussion on this on the DC forum quite some time ago and several of the arguments were quite convincing. 'It could be bad on the road with the horses' was connected with the parents dying on the only curve on Dead Horse Road

Connexios were also found between the trailer and the doomed Thresher submarine. I won't say more on this right now not to spoil the excitement of finding your own connexions between the two if you wish to, and in the hope that new ideas will come out, taking the discussion further.

Oh, and there was a (separate) discussion on the symbolism of Ennis pissing in the sink - another TOTW perhaps??

Have 'fun'    

[Jeff Wrangler]

There was a fascinating discussion on this on the DC forum quite some time ago and several of the arguments were quite convincing. 'It could be bad on the road with the horses' was connected with the parents dying on the only curve on Dead Horse Road

Personally I don't find the foreshadowing idea convincing. When you write a story, I don't think you foreshadow something that doesn't take place (in your story).

Connexios were also found between the trailer and the doomed Thresher submarine. I won't say more on this right now not to spoil the excitement of finding your own connexions between the two if you wish to, and in the hope that new ideas will come out, taking the discussion further.

Oh, and there was a (separate) discussion on the symbolism of Ennis pissing in the sink - another TOTW perhaps??

Have 'fun'    

Symbolism of Ennis pissing in the sink? Oh, good grief. ...

We've discussed the sink-pissing here, too. Someone even found some relevant pictures (not of someong pissing in a sink). I won't repeat here what I said then, because it's OT, and in case Chrissi decides to make it a TOTW.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It would seem that the day described in the prologue is many years in the future from 1983 when Jack died. Perhaps AP meant us to think that it is in 1997, around the time she wrote the story. Ennis is described in the prologue as having gray hairs in his lower abdomen, that doesn't usually happen to men until they are in late middle age or early retirement years. I am in my early 50's and I am just now getting a few gray hairs on my chest, all other areas on me, except for the gray in the temples in my hairline, are still nice and toasty brown.

Gee, thanks. You're telling me I'm getting old prematurely. ...

(On a more serious, topic-related note, I'm glad someone else noticed this detail. I've written elsewhere that I feel it's one indication that the prologue takes place many years, perhaps a decade at least, after Jack's death, and that Ennis is still alone--no finding another male lover.)

[Penthesilea]

There was a fascinating discussion on this on the DC forum quite some time ago and several of the arguments were quite convincing.

Maybe the author of the post I read was referring to this discussion.

I'm going over to look for it - I'm not - I'm going - I'm not - ... 

I won't. At least not now. I'm waiting what my BetterMost comarades come up with and read the DC discussion later.

(On a more serious, topic-related note, I'm glad someone else noticed this detail. I've written elsewhere that I feel it's one indication that the prologue takes place many years, perhaps a decade at least, after Jack's death, and that Ennis is still alone--no finding another male lover.)

Hey bud, what am I, chopped liver? 
I talked about Ennis's grey pubic and belly hair (and it's indication of time passing) in my second post on this thread.
Tsk, tsk, tsk  Think you need more whiskey, then you'll see all the symbolic meanings clearly  . Nah, seriously, you're one of my fav persons to disagree with about the symbolic stuff  . How boring would it be if we all had the same opinions. This board would long be dead  .

[Jeff Wrangler]

Think you need more whiskey.

There's always room for more whiskey. ... 

[myprivatejack]

Well,I had never thought about this possibility,but I find interesting to speak about it...I must say that Ennis die,or begun to die,the day he knew Jack was murdered.Although at the same time,he began somehow a "new life",since his "coming out" before Jack's parents was a kind of liberation from him,introducing himself without really hiding his love...But surely he didn't take much care of himself,as someone has said,mainly being a lonely man,for incapability or perhaps,a kind of self-punishment?.
Being as it's a movie full with methaphors,it can be one of them the wind, as an announcement that he's going to reunite himself with Jack at the end.The same than some phrases that have been remarked here,can be perfectly an announcement of an accident as a way to this reunion.Why not?Or simply,an heart attack,because Ennis-even if he wasn't an old man still...-has prematurely get old from this lack of care or for sufferings-anyhow,several years had passed,according to the s.s.-.Or ,I repite,because he didn't want,he needn't to keep on living...

P.S.:About a sink-pissing ghost...well,more than Ennis ghost,it would be Jack's ghost,who was funnier...

[souxi]

Maybe the author of the post I read was referring to this discussion.

I'm going over to look for it - I'm not - I'm going - I'm not - ... 

I won't. At least not now. I'm waiting what my BetterMost comarades come up with and read the DC discussion later.



Hey bud, what am I, chopped liver? 
I talked about Ennis's grey pubic and belly hair (and it's indication of time passing) in my second post on this thread.
Tsk, tsk, tsk  Think you need more whiskey, then you'll see all the symbolic meanings clearly  . Nah, seriously, you're one of my fav persons to disagree with about the symbolic stuff  . How boring would it be if we all had the same opinions. This board would long be dead  .

*Ahem*
Jeff isn,t the only one who doesn,t agree with all this symbolic stuff lol. Re pissing in the sink, I mean the only thing that symbolises to me is that he woke up in the morning, desperate for a pee, couldn,t make it to the bathroom on time so he pissed in the sink. End of lol.   And don,t even get me started on buckets. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

*Ahem*
Jeff isn,t the only one who doesn,t agree with all this symbolic stuff lol. Re pissing in the sink, I mean the only thing that symbolises to me is that he woke up in the morning, desperate for a pee, couldn,t make it to the bathroom on time so he pissed in the sink. End of lol.   And don,t even get me started on buckets. 

Well, since this keeps coming up. ... 

Maybe Chrissi remembers this discussion elsewhere, too. Unfortunately I'm not very good at "searching" for posts.

I think in the story Ennis's living conditions are even more spartan than they are in the film. The screenplay refers to his "trailer house," and here in Pennsylvania we would say he was living in a "house trailer." However, I think in the story he is actually living in an even smaller trailer, the kind used for traveling and camping.

When I was a boy my grandparents bought a "travel trailer" and would occasionally take me along on weekend trips. Many of the trailers that we would see in the campgrounds where we stayed did not have bathroom facilities (my grandparents' trailer had a toilet in a tiny little closet of a room, but no shower or washbasin). These trailers would have a sink with running water, supplied through a hose hooked up to the trailer; a small, two-burner stove fueled by liquid propane; and a small refrigerator (the one in my grandparents' trailer could be powered by either electricity or propane). We know the trailer in the story has a stove and a sink. I don't think it has any kind of bathroom facilities, so the reason Ennis relieves himself in the sink is because otherwise he would have to put on his clothes and go outdoors to some outhouse.

[souxi]

Well, since this keeps coming up. ... 

Maybe Chrissi remembers this discussion elsewhere, too. Unfortunately I'm not very good at "searching" for posts.

I think in the story Ennis's living conditions are even more spartan than they are in the film. The screenplay refers to his "trailer house," and here in Pennsylvania we would say he was living in a "house trailer." However, I think in the story he is actually living in an even smaller trailer, the kind used for traveling and camping.

When I was a boy my grandparents bought a "travel trailer" and would occasionally take me along on weekend trips. Many of the trailers that we would see in the campgrounds where we stayed did not have bathroom facilities (my grandparents' trailer had a toilet in a tiny little closet of a room, but no shower or washbasin). These trailers would have a sink with running water, supplied through a hose hooked up to the trailer; a small, two-burner stove fueled by liquid propane; and a small refrigerator (the one in my grandparents' trailer could be powered by either electricity or propane). We know the trailer in the story has a stove and a sink. I don't think it has any kind of bathroom facilities, so the reason Ennis relieves himself in the sink is because otherwise he would have to put on his clothes and go outdoors to some outhouse.

Nahhhh I still reckon he was too desperate to make it to the bathroom on time. I mean don,t blokes wake up in the morning with their ermmm, "wotsit" standing to attention desperate for a pee?? 
And in the UK we call trailers caravans. So a trailer park would be a caravan park. And on that note Jeff, goodnight. I bet you,ll think about me now when you get up in the morning won,t you, eh? eh? lol. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Nahhhh I still reckon he was too desperate to make it to the bathroom on time.

You've clearly never had to use an outhouse in cold weather.     

[mouk]

I have, and had there been a sink, well, I would not have hesitated  (runs away hoping nobody will recognise her)

[belbbmfan]

I have, and had there been a sink, well, I would not have hesitated  (runs away hoping nobody will recognise her)

 

honesty is a nice trait!

[mouk]

ooops  Fabienne - Our next meeting is in the summer, right? and the weather will be warm

Anyway, to try and remain on topic, it does seem like very many years have passed by indeed, that Ennis has more or less given up on life and is so lonely that social niceties such as going to the bathroom or outhouse are of no relevance any longer to him, and that dying on that day would not be such a bad thing

It was mentioned that AP would not have given a hint of something that was not going to happen in the story - but we could argue that she also says that 'a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts'

[BelAir]

Perhaps the prologue sounds as though Ennis is dying because Ennis has already died a bit, inside? There's something ghost-like about Ennis at the beginning and end of the story. (Not the part about pissing in the sink. I'm not sure if a sink-pissing ghost would be scary or funny or just unhygienic.)

[SFEnnisSF]

I never read the thread on DCF, but I did discuss this idea with a forum member in person once.  I was facinated.  I just want to share one metaphor idea that was introduced to me:  The trailer is his coffin, and the wind making the gravel hit the trailer is the dirt being shoveled on his "coffin".....

[brokeplex]

Gee, thanks. You're telling me I'm getting old prematurely. ...

(On a more serious, topic-related note, I'm glad someone else noticed this detail. I've written elsewhere that I feel it's one indication that the prologue takes place many years, perhaps a decade at least, after Jack's death, and that Ennis is still alone--no finding another male lover.)

Hi Jeff, that is my interpretation that the Ennis we meet in the prolog has been alone for a decade and a half after Jack's death. Ennis in the prologue would be in his mid 50's set in about 1997 when AP wrote the story. And yes, he would still be alone, his one chance at love gone forever.

 If you have a copy of the Story to Screenplay, read the essay by AP where she discusses her inspiration for writing the book and discusses that elderly cowboy watching the young men playing pool. that old fellow who may have been country gay, he may or may not have had a chance at love like Ennis did. I think that AP was creating an alternate world for that specific man, in order to tell what his story could have been if he had met a Jack and fallen in love. In the end though, he ends up alone, watching the young men play pool in the local honkey tonk.

[mouk]

I never read the thread on DCF, but I did discuss this idea with a forum member in person once.  I was facinated.  I just want to share one metaphor idea that was introduced to me:  The trailer is his coffin, and the wind making the gravel hit the trailer is the dirt being shoveled on his "coffin".....

Yes, exactly, sferics, and it was also compared to the Thresher submarine that sank: the trailer has a 'curved length' and the 'scratching of fine gravel and sand' is very reminiscent of the noise people in the Thresher would have heard when it hit the bottom of the sea and slid on it. There is even mention of a shark.

The keys were also mentioned, I think as the offer of a choice of a new life, and a parallel with the keys thrown at him by Aguirre was also mentioned, giving him the choice of a life with Jack. As I write this I just realise this could well be the keys to love, thrown by Aguirre and then the keys to death dropped in his hand by the shark -  death that may well reunite him with Jack, so these are perhaps again the keys to love...

[Sheriff Roland]

Awright, it's 5 in the morning here and this may not sound as coherent as I would like but here goes anyways ...

Annie Proulx wrote a short story. Every word has meaning, I accept. But the use of symbolism is more a Ang Lee thing. The many mataphores are the product of the movie version of BbM. Annie put a lot of wind in BbM to help us feel we were in Wyoming - as she does with most of her other Wyoming stories. To say that Jack is the wind in the prologue is extrapolating from the movie, not the book, and the discussion this week's suppose to be focussing on the prologue, which is strictly a short story happening. I do not think of the many metaphores when reading the short story and so, I remain the the camp of those who do not see any reason to think that Ennis is on the last leg day of his life in the prologue.

Maybe it's an emotional response on my part (I want him to continue to live), but that's how I feel about the current discussion.

[injest]

Awright, it's 5 in the morning here and this may not sound as coherent as I would like but here goes anyways ...

Annie Proulx wrote a short story. Every word has meaning, I accept. But the use of symbolism is more a Ang Lee thing. The many mataphores are the product of the movie version of BbM. Annie put a lot of wind in BbM to help us feel we were in Wyoming - as she does with most of her other Wyoming stories. To say that Jack is the wind in the prologue is extrapolating from the movie, not the book, and the discussion this week's suppose to be focussing on the prologue, which is strictly a short story happening. I do not think of the many metaphores when reading the short story and so, I remain the the camp of those who do not see any reason to think that Ennis is on the last leg day of his life in the prologue.

Maybe it's an emotional response on my part (I want him to continue to live), but that's how I feel about the current discussion.

I agree.

I dont' think Ennis died that day (or was already dead) mainly because of the last line about 'can't change it so you have to stand it'. To me that shows that he is hanging on...because as long as he lives, Jack lives.

[mouk]

Maybe it's an emotional response on my part (I want him to continue to live), but that's how I feel about the current discussion.

LOL Roland, I want him to die so he is free from his pain, so my interpretation is probably also an emotional response on my part!

As regards metaphors, I read somewhere that AP had been brought up with metaphors by her mother who also asked her what particular music pieces evoked for her - or something like that, I can't remember exactly. And there was this strange thing where a piece of music reminded her of 'a bishop running in the forest' - I just wish I could remember properly  - old age...

[southendmd]

The keys were also mentioned, I think as the offer of a choice of a new life, and a parallel with the keys thrown at him by Aguirre was also mentioned, giving him the choice of a life with Jack. As I write this I just realise this could well be the keys to love, thrown by Aguirre and then the keys to death dropped in his hand by the shark -  death that may well reunite him with Jack, so these are perhaps again the keys to love...

Mouk, this is an interesting idea, but Aguirre tosses Ennis a watch, not keys.  The story says he winds it and sets it before tossing it.  Perhaps his time with Jack is limited...

Trailer as doomed submarine and coffin of loneliness.  I can see that. 


In the italicized prologue, I think the "grey" reference is the only clue as to the time.  The end of the story seems to take place shortly after discovering the shirts.  "A few weeks later", Ennis goes to the gift shop to order the postcard.  "Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams" is the second-to-last paragraph. 

Perhaps Ennis had been dreaming of Jack for a long time.  Interesting to think of the prologue taking place in 1997. 

Is it Ennis's last day?  I think not, but it's another example of what we choose to project, or how we "finish" the story ourselves, depending on who we are.

[mouk]

Sorry, memory playing up again - you're right Southendmd, it was a watch, not keys, and there was talk indeed about limited time with Jack. So much for my new little theory 

The connexion between washing the horse blankets, going to the gift shop and starting having dreams of Jack remains intriguing - could it be that he is washing his guilt away (but not entirely as there are still lurid pictures in the dreams), acknowledging with the postcard that BBM was real and it was love, and then over the years losing the guilt totally and remembering only the love - 'suffused with pleasure' and trying to keep the dream alive so that it might stoke the day?

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Ever since my first viewing of the movie, I have thought of Ennis Del Mar as a living entity out there in the world somewhere, grown old and in declining health. I thought of him as a relic, the survivor of the two.

What I have noticed since Heath's passing is that I no long feel that way. With the passingof the actor that played his character, it feels like Ennis Del Mar is gone too. 

[Lynne]

...
What I have noticed since Heath's passing is that I no long feel that way. With the passingof the actor that played his character, it feels like Ennis Del Mar is gone too.

 

It's a tribute to Heath's ability as an actor that he was able to embody Ennis so completely, I suppose.  I've felt the same way though.  I wonder if people thought the same with Bogart died - that he never had a chance to meet Ilse in New York one day?  Somehow, I doubt it.

[Marge_Innavera]

I recall the discussion on DC, but unfortunately their search function is disabled so it would be difficult to search for. It was at least a year ago, probably well before that.

That question is one I've never had a firm opinion on, but the suggestion that Ennis hasn't dreamed about Jack for awhile was one aspect I'd never thought of.  One part of the other discussion I do remember is the mention of the sound of the wind being like shovels full of earth. (? ? ? my copy of the ss doesn't include the prologue)

As far as pissing in the sink is concerned, IMO if this has any significance it's to underscore Ennis being alone, and having been alone for some time. And you can add to that the fact that in the country, taking a pee outside when Nature calls unexpectedly is much more common and practical than in more populated areas.  For someone who lives alone, at least a man who lives alone,* I guess it wouldn't be a very big step to piss in the sink right after waking up rather than bother with the bathroom.


*For a woman, peeing in a sink might iinvolve climbing up on a chair!

[WhiskySpring]

Absolutely not. There is nothing in the prologue that suggests death whatsoever.

[belbbmfan]

Ever since my first viewing of the movie, I have thought of Ennis Del Mar as a living entity out there in the world somewhere, grown old and in declining health. I thought of him as a relic, the survivor of the two.

What I have noticed since Heath's passing is that I no long feel that way. With the passingof the actor that played his character, it feels like Ennis Del Mar is gone too. 

Well, it's been a day of gloomy thoughts...I was watching the youtube video about the video Heath had made of the Nick Drake song Black Eyed Dog and all the talk about depression and the signs about the mental state he was in.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16517.msg341002.html#new

And thinking about the topic of this (excellent btw) thread, it seemed like Ennis's state of mind in the prologue almost resembled Heath's. It's a very unsettling feeling.   

[brokeplex]

Absolutely not. There is nothing in the prologue that suggests death whatsoever.

Welcome to Bettermost WhiskySpring! I hope that you enjoy your time here in BM.

and , you and I agree on the suggestion of Ennis's death in the prologue

[Marge_Innavera]

Ever since my first viewing of the movie, I have thought of Ennis Del Mar as a living entity out there in the world somewhere, grown old and in declining health. I thought of him as a relic, the survivor of the two.

What I have noticed since Heath's passing is that I no long feel that way. With the passingof the actor that played his character, it feels like Ennis Del Mar is gone too. 

I'd thought that if nothing changes in Ennis' life from what we see at the end of both the ss and the movie, he'd probably have passed on by the year 2008. Even at the end of the basic plot, when he's only 40, this is someone who's put a lot of stress on his body and probably neglected his health.

[loneleeb3]

To me that shows that he is hanging on...because as long as he lives, Jack lives.

What a brilliant and lovely sentiment! I have never thought of that before and I love it!

With the passingof the actor that played his character, it feels like Ennis Del Mar is gone too. 

No words