Author Topic: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?  (Read 21165 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« on: March 17, 2008, 06:47:38 am »
Good morning BetterMostians,  :)


again, this topic was inspired by a post of one of our residents. Delalluvia made a passing comment about Ennis being a particularly bad father, and I thought „Was he?“

Thank you Delalluvia for the idea!

Before we start, I wanted to encourage everybody to suggest topics for this feature, particularly the somewhat newer residents. Don't be shy about it. If you have a question or a topic you want in focus for one week, PM me or Ineedcrayons. New people bring new ideas and we love to hear them! Also if there is something in the movie/story which keeps bothering you and you can't make up you mind about it – why not asking your fellow Brokies about it?

One more thing: if English is not your native language and you're insecure about how to phrase a topic, don't let this stop you from suggesting topics. Katherine and I are happy to help you with it. English is not my native language either and I'm sure my wording is sometimes far from perfect. We're not in English class here, you won't get grades for it, promise  ;D


'nuff rambling, let's start with this weeks topic.


Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?


Some think Jack's readiness to leave his family in Texas for Ennis is a clear indicator of what a bad father he was. But was this really the case? And what about Ennis? What do you think of his paternal qualities, taking in account the given time and place? Were they average fathers? Maybe even especially loving ones? Or were they indeed particularly bad fathers?




Offline myprivatejack

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2008, 08:13:00 am »

This is an aspect in Jack life I have hardly thought about before:the possibility of being somehow, a bad father,or at least,nor so good as he should be.-and I´m speaking about Jack,because I have never have doubts about Ennis...-.Jack  seems to care for Boby in very few aspects during the movie and more in the SS.But if he had broken his marriage,does it mean that he would not care for his child future?IMO this has nothing to do with wishing a new life with a person who is not Bobby mother...
If we do not see more affection demonstrations to his son I suppose it is because Jack family,marriage and fatherhod,are not so definitive in the story development as is the ones from Ennis;who,by the way,uses often his undeniable love for his girls as a shield to protect him against taking some kind of responsability and,much more still,taking a decision about living or not with Jack.We all know how his fears and doubts ponder sometimes fairly more than his real love for his partner,so his familiar duties are a good excuse to avoid facing reality(although in the beguinning he used to leave the girls to be with him...a kind of fatigue over the years,maybe?we could speak also about this...);I've always thought Ennis being always uses the same pattern as a way of almost self-protection :he always is pretending work,money,family,whatever is not going well.But when things get better...then he pretends to start living as he wants. But the circumstances are never enough good. That it's the 'living in a perfect future' trap, as a Brokie friend once said .And John Lennon also said once 'Life is what happens while we make other plans'; a good Ennis definition,that can be applied also to his daughters relationship somehow.
Jack seemed to be more willing to leave his family for living with Ennis;better said,he was willing to leave his family life,that´s not the same...He played the game with all his cards,because he did not have these fears or doubts,so he need not to put Bobby as an excuse for a anything;for this reason,to show him as a bad father,or not very caring father,is a result of the game.I do not  know if this makes sense for you.








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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2008, 11:11:15 am »
In the film, I think an effort is made to portray both Jack and Ennis as fathers who feel a pretty significant sense of responsibility towards their kids (with Ennis being so concerned about making his child support payments and with Jack stepping in and showing concern about Bobby's tutor).  I also think an effort is made to show that they both have pride in their children and have fun playing with them (ex. Jack helping Bobby steer the tractor and Ennis generally seeming to dote on his daughters in his own way).

However, the difference is that Jack really was willing to leave Lureen and Bobby for Ennis (whereas Ennis uses his kids as a major excuse for not living with Jack).  I don't think either of these things is particularly positive or negative as far as their role as fathers.  I don't think that Jack would abandon Bobby (in terms of support, etc.), but it does demonstrate a level of distance that Jack must feel towards Bobby.  And, in a way, using his daughters as a roadblock to his own happiness is not necessarily a healthy thing in terms of Ennis's attitude.  He also really seems to want to keep his daughters at arms lengthe while they grow up... not wanting Junior to move in with him, etc.

I think in the story it's far more clear cut that Jack did not want kids and probably feels sort of saddled with Bobby.  As it is in the story, he seems to take care of Bobby and to feel some sense of pride/affection towards him.  But, if he really didn't want children... that's probably a very difficult feeling to overcome.  I don't think it makes him a "bad" father.  Some people just don't have the personality that desires parenthood in the way that some people are passionate about the role.  Ennis, by personality, just seems like a more enthusiastic parent.





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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2008, 06:00:17 pm »
Ennis showed himself to be a loving father to his girls. He attempted to provide for them within the limits of his income, and ambitions. Could he have been a more ambitious provider ( the job at the power company that he didn't bother to apply for)? yes, he could have, and possibly not broken up with Alma if he had made more money.

Jack showed himself to be a loving father in the time that he spent with Bobby. Did Jack want children? Probably not, but he did accept this responsibility within limits. Of course, there was no question that Bobby's material needs would be taken of, but I'm pretty sure that Bobby walked thru life wounded by the loss of his father. And regardless of the murder of Jack, had Jack had his way, Bobby would have lost his father earlier. Jack wanted out of the marriage, and if given the out by Lureen and LD, Jack would probably have not seen much of Bobby thru the years.

It was an impossible situation that the two men were force to be in, overall they did their best that they could under the circumstances of their lives.

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 06:52:35 pm »
In the film, I think an effort is made to portray both Jack and Ennis as fathers who feel a pretty significant sense of responsibility towards their kids (with Ennis being so concerned about making his child support payments and with Jack stepping in and showing concern about Bobby's tutor).  I also think an effort is made to show that they both have pride in their children and have fun playing with them (ex. Jack helping Bobby steer the tractor and Ennis generally seeming to dote on his daughters in his own way).

I think they both did the best that they could given the circumstances. It's pretty clear in the film that they both feel a sense of responsibility to their kids, and as Amanda said, with Ennis's concern over the child support payments and Jack's concern over Bobby's tutor the film does show their concern about their kids. Both men though are torn between the need and the desire to be there for their kids and accept the responsibility of them, and their desire to be together. It's a tough situation that's never going to work, because neither are ever going to be able to choose between their kids and the love of their life - yet another tragedy of the story/film.

I do think they did the best they could though. Jack taking Bobby in the tractor does show Jack tried to make an effort with his son, and he does look like he's enjoying it. Ennis meanwhile we see playing with the girls when they're younger, but as they get older, I think he just doesn't know how to relate to and talk to his daughters. The scene where he's had the fight with Alma as she's going to work and the girls are on the swings and he mutters "You want a push or something?" I think is particularly telling. Ennis is only ever really at ease with Jack, and it's almost as though he doesn't know how to talk to his daughters. Whether that's because he's surrounded by women at home, or whether it's just because he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I don't know.

My dad was like that. When my sister and I were younger he just didn't seem to know how to talk to us and what to say (hell, I'm 35 now and he still doesn't LOL!). Whether it's because like Ennis he was in a house surrounded by women, or just that he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I'm not sure, but I suspect the latter. My nephew's 9 now, and he's just the same with my nephew - he either tries too hard or tries to joke with him when it's clear he doesn't understand the joke, and can't seem to get the line right between being strict without pouncing on every little thing he does wrong. Like I said, he was just the same with me and my sister, and it's lead to strained relationships over the years. I guess some men (and I suppose some women too, but less commonly) just don't know how to relate to kids, and I get the feeling that this was the problem with Ennis. He clearly did dote on his daughters - later in the film after the divorce when he sent Jack away, he was clearly putting his girls before Jack on that occasion because he knew he only got limited time with them, and then right at the end he's clearly concerned that Alma Jnr loves this guy she's marrying (even though he doesn't know his name, but then my dad could never remember who I was seeing when I was younger either).

Ennis showed himself to be a loving father to his girls. He attempted to provide for them within the limits of his income, and ambitions. Could he have been a more ambitious provider ( the job at the power company that he didn't bother to apply for)? yes, he could have, and possibly not broken up with Alma if he had made more money.


That, I feel's a different question - not of his ambitions, but more on a practical level. I don't think it was a question of him not caring for his family and wanting to be able to provide for them, but he knew with the ranching, as he said to Jack towards the end, that in the early days he'd just quit a job if he couldn't get time off to be able to go away with Jack, but if he'd worked for the power company, he knew it was a more responsible job, and he knew that he wouldn't have been able to take time off the same to spend with Jack. I think in that instance he was quite clearly thinking of Jack, and putting Jack first. Their meetings were necessarily infrequent anyhow, and he knew that if he'd taken a job at the power company he would have been able to see Jack even less frequently.


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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 07:21:58 pm »

I do think they did the best they could though. Jack taking Bobby in the tractor does show Jack tried to make an effort with his son, and he does look like he's enjoying it. Ennis meanwhile we see playing with the girls when they're younger, but as they get older, I think he just doesn't know how to relate to and talk to his daughters. The scene where he's had the fight with Alma as she's going to work and the girls are on the swings and he mutters "You want a push or something?" I think is particularly telling. Ennis is only ever really at ease with Jack, and it's almost as though he doesn't know how to talk to his daughters. Whether that's because he's surrounded by women at home, or whether it's just because he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I don't know.

My dad was like that. When my sister and I were younger he just didn't seem to know how to talk to us and what to say (hell, I'm 35 now and he still doesn't LOL!). Whether it's because like Ennis he was in a house surrounded by women, or just that he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I'm not sure, but I suspect the latter. My nephew's 9 now, and he's just the same with my nephew - he either tries too hard or tries to joke with him when it's clear he doesn't understand the joke, and can't seem to get the line right between being strict without pouncing on every little thing he does wrong. Like I said, he was just the same with me and my sister, and it's lead to strained relationships over the years. I guess some men (and I suppose some women too, but less commonly) just don't know how to relate to kids, and I get the feeling that this was the problem with Ennis. He clearly did dote on his daughters - later in the film after the divorce when he sent Jack away, he was clearly putting his girls before Jack on that occasion because he knew he only got limited time with them, and then right at the end he's clearly concerned that Alma Jnr loves this guy she's marrying (even though he doesn't know his name, but then my dad could never remember who I was seeing when I was younger either).
 

Heya Bliss!

I think it's a very good point to suggest that Ennis may not know how to talk to his daughters all that comfortably at times.  And, it's been noted here and there that some of his affectionate gestures towards his daughters, he seems to actually have learned from Jack.  The example here, is when Ennis is at Thanksgiving with the girls and Alma and Monroe... when he caresses Jenny's cheek and ear, some have seen this as a very similar gesture to Jack stroking Ennis's cheek and ear following the Earl story.

In the case of Ennis turning Jack away following his divorce, however, I really do think Ennis is sort of using his daughters as an excuse for his own fears.  Yes, it's true that he had to take care of his daughters at the moment.  But, he could have asked Jack to hang around for a couple of days until the visit with his daughters was over (or any number of other possible scenarios that wouldn't have involved pretty much flat out rejecting Jack's visit).  When Ennis looks and sees that white truck and clams up, I think Jack really understands what he's up against.  His separation from Ennis wasn't all about Ennis being married.  Even now that Ennis is not married, there's still an enormous roadblock.
 :-\

Thinking about Ennis and the traumatic Thanksgiving with Alma and Monroe... there's a detail in Proulx's story that may or may not come across to a film-viewer-only.  In the aftermath of the Thanksgiving fight in the kitchen it says:

"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left.  He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."

That seems pretty dramatic on the part of story-Ennis.  It sounds like Proulx is suggesting that following that fight, he really didn't want to face his daughters again... at least until they were adults.



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Offline Peter John Shields

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 07:51:56 pm »
"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left.  He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."

Hi atz75 - my name is Pete,

Yes I agree with you - I thought that was a very interesting piece of the story and was probably hard to translate into the film - but I thought it was a very intuitive sentence of Annies.

After his divorce my brother basically said the same thing regarding his kids and his ex wife - and where some people might try to be a hands on influence I would say that Ennis (and my brother) are people who sit back and let their children make their own decisions when they are old enough to do so...this is something the child may not appreciate until they are much older and at the time feel that the withdrawal of one parent is a rejection of them - when in actual fact it is a caring act...

I also liked the scene of Ennis with the girls and the swing - I thought it was very cute and also was touched by how seemingly unaffected the girls were by their parents bickering - I think they were very confident in the love their parents had for them...
Cheerio,
PJ

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 01:19:40 pm »
I think that we all agree in that both of them loved their children and that the possibility of sharing their lives doesn't mean a real abandon of them.And I've seen as some of us agree also in that Ennis uses very often his daughters as an excuse to avoid commitment; the perfect shield to protect himself against his lover's wishes...But I keep on asking why do you think he had even left his girls to be with Jack in the first years of their relationship,and after,little by little,they began to be more and more this excuse.Would it be only for an economical question-the pension he must pay for their living-that obliged him to accept all jobs that sometimes avoided him to be with Jack?.Or maybe he was a little tired of the situation?-even if in his inner self he wished to see and to be with his lover...-.Because Jack in the confrontation scene says that before Ennis was always willing to join him,but then "he was as elusive as the Pope"...Your opinion?.
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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2008, 08:43:31 pm »
Because Jack in the confrontation scene says that before Ennis was always willing to join him,but then "he was as elusive as the Pope"...Your opinion?.

That's a good point. That sorta does make you think that there was something in Ennis that changed over the years. If I remember rightly in the line just before that, Jack says, "You used to come away easy." That was presumably referring to when he was still married and when the girls were younger. I wonder what changed for Ennis?

Or maybe it's just Jack bitching, because in the heat of that argument I think they both said things they regretted. As you say, part of it could have been that as Ennis said, in the early days he'd just quit a job to see Jack if he couldn't get time off. Even back in those days he'd still have the financial responsibility of providing for his family though, just as he did in later years with child support. Would the child support payments have put more of a strain on him though than when he was married and providing for his family?


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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2008, 09:01:46 pm »
I believe Ennis was a bad father in the way that he - as the story went - took 'fishing trips' with Jack, but never brought home any fish, even though according to the movie's Alma "me and the girls love fish' and he never took them on any trips.

But he did 'buy them ice cream'.

In other words, Ennis found time for himself and his freedom to be himself was so important to him that he quit his jobs when he was younger so he could be with Jack being away from his family for sometimes a week at a time, maybe once or twice a year, regardless of his family's needs.

In the meantime never taking his family on any trips.

Alma and the children hardly have any social life at all as a family.  Alma can suggest, but Ennis has to agree to an outing for it to happen and they're always local, one day events.  Nothing like a camping trip on the mountains for a week.

Ennis loves his girls, but when his job calls or Jack comes up, he's quick to dump them on Alma and is gone.  He loves them at his convenience.

This changes after the divorce, but as was pointed out, by the time Junior is 19, he has no clue what she is doing with her life, meaning, he's not seeing his girls regular even when he can.

When he and Alma had the fight, right in front of the girls who were on the swingset, he's pretty much telling the girls he can't be bothered to serve them dinner!!

And I disagree with Pete where he said:

Quote
I also liked the scene of Ennis with the girls and the swing - I thought it was very cute and also was touched by how seemingly unaffected the girls were by their parents bickering - I think they were very confident in the love their parents had for them.

I thought the girls were very affected by their parents bickering.  I was one of those children once.  The girls don't turn their father down with a sunny smile when he asks "Y'all need a push or sumptin'?"  They had been watching the fight, stopping their swinging, then when he turns his attention back to them, they quickly turn away - trying to get out of the line of fire and out from under his attention, lest they get the force of his displeasure aimed at them and say 'No."

In the story it says he used the fight to not see his girls until they were old enough to get out from under Alma's radar.  This sounded like an excuse, IMO.  He wasn't willing to risk further confrontations and decided to - again  - dump his girls when his needs were most important.   His girls were not going to understand his reasoning.  As far as they were concerned, he abandoned them.  They wouldn't even have his side of the story, a different opinion from their mother's.  Yes, sometimes later in life they appreciate it.  Sometimes.  Other times, they don't care to have anything to do with a father who was more concerned with his own life than theirs.

And finally, Ennis' attitude towards his marriage and Alma didn't help his image as a good father.  Again, he was wayward, used to taking off on his own whenever it suited him, leaving Alma to pick up his slack.  The children also saw this.  Can you blame Junior for taking more of a shine to her father than her mother?  Her mother is a drudge.  Her father gets to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, is independent, takes vacations where he wants to go and lets someone else do the work.  I'd want to have my father's life instead of my mother's too, if I were her.

So basically, I think Ennis was a bad father.  I think Jack was better in several respects, but since my comment was originally aimed at Ennis, I'll just stick with him.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 11:17:07 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 10:13:03 pm »


When he and Alma had the fight, right in front of the girls who were on the swingset, he's pretty much telling the girls he can't be bothered to serve them dinner!!



Heya Del,

This is an interesting comment... and definitely an interesting scene to think about carefully. 

It's interesting to try to ponder what exactly is Ennis so angry about?  Really, what's the big deal about Alma having to work and therefore missing this dinner?  It's no news that Alma works (she's been working since the girls were really tiny)... So, this really can't be about Ennis being upset that his wife works.  It doesn't seem likely that it's a gender-roles argument in that regard.  So, really, what's Ennis so fired up about here?  We're not given a lot of details to work with.  But, in terms of fixing a simple dinner... we all know that Ennis can cook reasonably well from what we witness of him up on Brokeback.  He even seems somewhat contented and interested in making food sometimes when he's cooking on Brokeback (adding extra seasoning, etc.).

It is sort of uncomfortable to see the girls witnessing the fight for me (in terms of my own personal reactions).  My parents have been married quite happily for almost 40 years, but once in a while they have screaming matches... when they fight they really fight.  And I remember being really scared by it as a kid.  So, in a way, I think the girls' somewhat cautious reaction to the scene they witness is very good (not over-acted... but subtly the tension that they feel really seems to come through).



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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 11:20:52 pm »
Heya Del,

This is an interesting comment... and definitely an interesting scene to think about carefully. 

It's interesting to try to ponder what exactly is Ennis so angry about?  Really, what's the big deal about Alma having to work and therefore missing this dinner?  It's no news that Alma works (she's been working since the girls were really tiny)... So, this really can't be about Ennis being upset that his wife works.  It doesn't seem likely that it's a gender-roles argument in that regard.  So, really, what's Ennis so fired up about here?  We're not given a lot of details to work with.  But, in terms of fixing a simple dinner... we all know that Ennis can cook reasonably well from what we witness of him up on Brokeback.  He even seems somewhat contented and interested in making food sometimes when he's cooking on Brokeback (adding extra seasoning, etc.).

That still doesn't speak well of Ennis though.  Alma yells back at Ennis that lunch/dinner is "on the stove", but Ennis yells back that no one is eating it, if you're not serving it.  Not only is he showing his girls that it's a pain for him to have to bother to serve and feed them, but that it's beneath him to do it.  It's low, women's work.  He's teaching them what he expects out of women.  Women serve men.

Alma is teaching the girls the better lesson there.

And what man doesn't like cooking on a camping trip?  That's right up there with women 'cooking' but men barbecuing.  ;)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 11:34:42 pm »
That still doesn't speak well of Ennis though.  Alma yells back at Ennis that lunch/dinner is "on the stove", but Ennis yells back that no one is eating it, if you're not serving it.  Not only is he showing his girls that it's a pain for him to have to bother to serve and feed them, but that it's beneath him to do it.  It's low, women's work.  He's teaching them what he expects out of women.  Women serve men.

Alma is teaching the girls the better lesson there.

And what man doesn't like cooking on a camping trip?  That's right up there with women 'cooking' but men barbecuing.  ;)

Yes, I agree!

Alma gets better and better at standing up for herself. 

At the grocery store she tries to resist Ennis's unreasonable demand that she take the kids in the middle of her shift.  She's pretty good at making her case, but she backs down.

Here with the swing set argument and later when she rejects Ennis in bed, she's able to fully and completely stand up for herself.  She goes to work instead of cooking dinner and she defends herself in bed (which I think is truly admirable... one of the best Alma scenes, in fact).

Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?

And, he didn't kick up a fuss about cooking for Jack at all.




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Offline fernly

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 11:37:22 pm »
I've been trying to sort out my thoughts about how Ennis' and Jack's experiences of being raised affected their views about, and abilities to parent. Ennis and Jack both had utterly appalling experiences inflicted on them by their fathers. They both, in sharp contrast, were gentle with their own children.
When Ennis was orphaned, his brother and sister "did the best they could", but once he was 19, "no more room for" him. He wasn't a child any more, but he was certainly an inadequately parented young adult.
Jack's folks didn't "run him off" (at least not permanently) since he went back Lightning Flat after that first summer, but home for him, from what we see, seems to be, at best, more about obligation than love and joy. He seems to take joy in Bobby in the early years of his childhood, but the despair that grips Jack as Ennis keeps refusing a life together, seems to sap that joy also.
The anger at their lives that both Jack and Ennis feel spills out, and their children witness it, but it's never directed at the children. That alone isn't enough to make them 'good' parents, not by today's standards, but it's certainly more than they were given by their fathers.
And Jack and Ennis gave their kids a lot more than that.
Again, maybe not enough to make them good parents by our lights, but they were parenting 40 years ago, and doing a much better job than their fathers. Is that enough to ask, that each generation will do better than the one before?
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 11:38:09 pm »
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this juncture?  Alma's always worked.

It's not that she's working, but that it's taking precedent over and interfering with their homelife.  This is not an uncommon gripe of macho men.  The husband who works, then comes home to relax, while fully expecting the wife to work, then come home to cook, clean and take care of the kids too and feels put upon if she asks him to share in that work as well.  That's Ennis.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 11:41:28 pm »
I've been trying to sort out my thoughts about how Ennis' and Jack's experiences of being raised affected their views about, and abilities to parent. Ennis and Jack both had utterly appalling experiences inflicted on them by their fathers. They both, in sharp contrast, were gentle with their own children.
When Ennis was orphaned, his brother and sister "did the best they could", but once he was 19, "no more room for" him. He wasn't a child any more, but he was certainly an inadequately parented young adult.
Jack's folks didn't "run him off" (at least not permanently) since he went back Lightning Flat after that first summer, but home for him, from what we see, seems to be, at best, more about obligation than love and joy. He seems to take joy in Bobby in the early years of his childhood, but the despair that grips Jack as Ennis keeps refusing a life together, seems to sap that joy also.
The anger at their lives that both Jack and Ennis feel spills out, and their children witness it, but it's never directed at the children. That alone isn't enough to make them 'good' parents, not by today's standards, but it's certainly more than they were given by their fathers.
And Jack and Ennis gave their kids a lot more than that.
Again, not enough to make them good parents by our lights, but they were parenting 40 years ago, and doing a much better job than their fathers. Is that enough to ask, that each generation will do better than the one before?

Heya fernly!

This is a great point.  Yes, it's pretty amazing to see how doting and affectionate Ennis and Jack both are in comparison to their fathers.  This really is truly admirable about both of them... there's never any indication that either of them is violent towards their children (like OMT definitely was towards Jack... and we can at least be sure that Ennis's father was extremely emotionally abusive towards Ennis and his siblings).  So, yes, both Jack and Ennis are enormous improvements on their own fathers.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 11:44:52 pm »
Yes, it's pretty amazing to see how doting and affectionate Ennis and Jack both are in comparison to their fathers.  This really is truly admirable about both of them... there's never any indication that either of them is violent towards their children (like OMT definitely was towards Jack... and we can at least be sure that Ennis's father was extremely emotionally abusive towards Ennis and his siblings).  So, yes, both Jack and Ennis are enormous improvements on their own fathers.

We can?  How so?  By the Earl incident?  That's pretty horrific to be sure, but how can we assume that wasn't an isolated incident?  I think the book/movie showed Jack's father to be the more abusive.

Offline fernly

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2008, 11:46:10 pm »
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?


Hi, Amanda,
I wonder if part of that anger is that Ennis is feeling so trapped and despairing, trying to fullfill the prescribed role of straight husband and father. Seems like some of the anger, (from reasons that he's not willing to face) is getting displaced on Alma when she starts not fulfilling part of her role in that scenario.
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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2008, 11:50:22 pm »
It's not that she's working, but that it's taking precedent over and interfering with their homelife.  This is not an uncommon gripe of macho men.  The husband who works, then comes home to relax, while fully expecting the wife to work, then come home to cook, clean and take care of the kids too and feels put upon if she asks him to share in that work as well.  That's Ennis.

OK, yes, I can see this.

With this interpretation in mind... It seems to me that one of the functions of this scene is to demonstrate how much angst, strife and stress over gender roles existed for Ennis within the context of a heterosexual marriage.  The peace and calm and utter willingness to switch off with different domestic tasks/ work (i.e. tending vs. herding) between Jack and Ennis is such a contrast.  Ennis's behavior on Brokeback shows that the anxiety over tasks that are often perceived to be gender specific just melts away in a single-gender context for him.  Ennis seems perfectly happy to be camp tender, and he seems perfectly happy to switch with Jack.  There's no stress in that.  He washes dishes and cooks Jack's food, etc.  So, in that context... and in the context of the relationship where he feels most comfortable... the same issues just simply don't exist where it comes to work load (compared to his experience and unfair expectations with Alma).



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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2008, 11:57:19 pm »
We can?  How so?  By the Earl incident?  That's pretty horrific to be sure, but how can we assume that wasn't an isolated incident?  I think the book/movie showed Jack's father to be the more abusive.

Yes, I think Jack's father probably was more consistently abusive towards Jack. 

I think the Earl incident alone (even if it's a totally isolated incident) is enough to constitute horrific (I mean criminally horrific) emotional and mental abuse towards young children.  I mean, we know this scared Ennis for life and essentially helped ruin his chances at happiness with Jack.

It's been noted in other threads that the Earl story comes as something of a surprise to film viewers (in its horror) because earlier Ennis makes rather positive or somewhat affectionate-sounding comments about his father.  In the "most I've spoken in a year" conversation he says "I think my Dad was right", etc. and says that he admired his Dad's skill as a roper, etc.  So, the awfulness of the Earl story comes as quite a contrast.

Also, in the way Ennis tells the story about Earl, he also implies that he wonders whether his father was actually the murderer or among the murderers of Earl... by saying "Hell, for all I know, he done the job."

So, I definitely stand by the assertion that Ennis's Dad was emotionally abusive.  In this case, one time only was definitely enough to constitute this accusation.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2008, 11:58:32 pm »
OK, yes, I can see this.

With this interpretation in mind... It seems to me that one of the functions of this scene is to demonstrate how much angst, strife and stress over gender roles existed for Ennis within the context of a heterosexual marriage.  The peace and calm and utter willingness to switch off with different domestic tasks/ work (i.e. tending vs. herding) between Jack and Ennis is such a contrast.  Ennis's behavior on Brokeback shows that the anxiety over tasks that are often perceived to be gender specific just melts away in a single-gender context for him.  Ennis seems perfectly happy to be camp tender, and he seems perfectly happy to switch with Jack.  There's no stress in that.  He washes dishes and cooks Jack's food, etc.  So, in that context... and in the context of the relationship where he feels most comfortable... the same issues just simply don't exist where it comes to work load (compared to his experience and unfair expectations with Alma).

It's a combination of both.  Fernly hinted at this.  Ennis just isn't happy in his heterosexual life.  He's happy with Jack and he's at peace while they're at Brokeback Mountain.  But the snake in their paradise is that he feels fear and shame for what he actually is, and so is unhappy about that as well.  So he ends up expressing his anger at Alma, at drunken bikers, etc.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2008, 12:06:21 am »
Yes, I think Jack's father probably was more consistently abusive towards Jack. 

I think the Earl incident alone (even if it's a totally isolated incident) is enough to constitute horrific (I mean criminally horrific) emotional and mental abuse towards young children.  I mean, we know this scared Ennis for life and essentially helped ruin his chances at happiness with Jack.

It's been noted in other threads that the Earl story comes as something of a surprise to film viewers (in its horror) because earlier Ennis makes rather positive or somewhat affectionate-sounding comments about his father.  In the "most I've spoken in a year" conversation he says "I think my Dad was right", etc. and says that he admired his Dad's skill as a roper, etc.  So, the awfulness of the Earl story comes as quite a contrast.

Also, in the way Ennis tells the story about Earl, he also implies that he wonders whether his father was actually the murderer or among the murderers of Earl... by saying "Hell, for all I know, he done the job."

So, I definitely stand by the assertion that Ennis's Dad was emotionally abusive.  In this case, one time only was definitely enough to constitute this accusation.

I'm not so sure.  Did you ever see the movie "Betrayed"?  With Tom Berenger?  Ennis' dad could have been similar to the main character.   A man who is kind, a good father,sweet, attractive can also hide a very dark side.  One that he doesn't let his kids see.  In Ennis' case, he did let his boys (but not daughter, Ennis' sister mind you) see.  At least he did once.   And about Ennis' dad doing the job, well, that's just Ennis' suspicions.  Ennis had a lot of those.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2008, 12:27:36 am »
I'm not so sure.  Did you ever see the movie "Betrayed"?  With Tom Berenger?  Ennis' dad could have been similar to the main character.   A man who is kind, a good father,sweet, attractive can also hide a very dark side.  One that he doesn't let his kids see.  In Ennis' case, he did let his boys (but not daughter, Ennis' sister mind you) see.  At least he did once.   And about Ennis' dad doing the job, well, that's just Ennis' suspicions.  Ennis had a lot of those.

Yes, it was Ennis's suspicion, but I think many or even most of Ennis's suspicions and fears grew directly out of the Earl incident.  The seed for Ennis's suspicions that his father could have been a murderer were planted somehow and somewhere.  That's a pretty god-awful thing to suspect about a parent.  And, I think his father planted them himself. 

No, I've never seen Betrayed.  But, in the case of Ennis's father... his "very dark side" wasn't hidden to either Ennis or K.E.  His father chose to expose his young sons to that gruesome scene out of some sick and twisted idea that he was teaching them some kind of lesson.  And, I'll just say again, that even the way the Earl flashback is shot... with the headless father guiding the two boys by the shoulders to view a murder scene just screams emotional and psychological torment to me.  If Ennis's father was "proud" enough of the Earl scene to go to the trouble to drag his sons out there to look at it... it doesn't seem like a huge stretch to imagine that he would have at least been capable of participating in the murder or tacitly encouraging such an event to take place.

And, I'll just repeat my belief that one incident is enough to make a parent an abusive monster.  This is more or less the case, in terms of what we know about Old Man Twist too.  We only really know the details of the one horrendous scene of physical abuse in the bathroom (from the story only and not the film).  We don't know details about other physical abuse, although I think it's reasonable to extrapolate from that scene that OMT might have been routinely abusive.  Still, if the bathroom scene was an isolated incident, it would still make OMT a horrific, abusive father.

My threshold for a definition of child abuse is pretty low, so from my point of view, both the case of Ennis's father and Jack's father easily rise to the level of what I'd consider child abuse.




So, anyway... the point here is that it seems that Ennis and Jack are both much, much better fathers then their own.  I truly believe this.



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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2008, 07:09:49 am »
So, anyway... the point here is that it seems that Ennis and Jack are both much, much better fathers then their own.  I truly believe this.

I agree. They both had their faults, but they did the best they could I think in the circumstances. Given the fact that both had abusive childhoods, which still had a great effect on them as adults, I think it's a testament to them that neither perpetuated the cycle of abuse they'd experienced as children. Ennis's fears as a result of his childhood are clear to see, but Jack's are more subtle. He tells Ennis about his childhood, which shows a great trust in Ennis, but the fireside scene where he's talking about his rodeoing career is also telling. I can't remember how the exact line goes, but he starts off saying that his father never told him any bull-riding secrets, but more telling I think is the fact he says "never once came to see me ride" Despite his father's treatment of him, he still wants OMT's approval and recognition. I think he's also very aware not the make the same mistakes with his own son.

The argument over who was the most abusive, OMT or Ennis's father, depends I guess on your perspective, and as Amanda says, your threashold for a definition of child abuse. Okay, so neither of them are ever going to win a parent of the year award, but they did the best the knew how to given the complex situation, and I think the key is that although undoubtably their kids did suffer in the crossfire of the situation, they never intentionally set out to harm their kids.


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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2008, 11:31:04 am »
Thinking about Ennis and the traumatic Thanksgiving with Alma and Monroe... there's a detail in Proulx's story that may or may not come across to a film-viewer-only.  In the aftermath of the Thanksgiving fight in the kitchen it says:

"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left.  He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."

IMO this aspect is a major difference between the story and film, for both Ennis and Jack.  In the next scene with Ennis and Alma Junior (after the Thanksgiving scene), she's much older but obviously not old enough to move out of her mother's and stepfather's house. So whatever "a long time" was in the film, the last scene with Junior and her wedding announcement was not the first time he'd seen her.  In Jack's case, he doesn't seem to have any qualms about leaving his son when he proposes that he and Ennis get a ranch together; but on the other hand, you do see him spending some time with his son in one scene and being concerned about Bobby's need for a tutor in the scene with Lureen.

In my more recent viewings of the movie, for some reason Ennis' scenes with his daughters as babies and young children is especially poignant, particularly the earliest one where one is a baby and the other a toddler -- Ennis looks tired and stressed out but he doesn't look unhappy and for 1967, his level of everyday involvement with the two children is unusual.  That he doesn't see them as often in later years is one aspect of his life having been distorted by his not being able to live the kind of life he was meant to.  Even if he had overcome those fears to the point that he and Jack would be able to live together, it's quite possible that he'd have to keep Alma from finding out if he didn't want her to go back to court and cancel any visiation rights. In that case, the law itself would ensure that he wouldn't be seeing him until they were of legal age to make their own decisions. And who knows how much things could have been mended by that point?

It's more ambiguous in the SS, but the prologue's mention of his possibly moving in with his 'married daughter' would seem to indicate that he hasn't been permanently estranged from his children.

And as it's been stated in earlier posts, there's also the fact that both Ennis and Jack have less than ideal fathers, to put it mildly: both fathers have abused them in their own ways.  However many generations in both families that kind of parenting might have been going on, Ennis and Jack did manage to stop it in their relationships with their children.

Offline Fran

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2008, 12:00:22 pm »
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?


I think Ennis is angry because Alma agreed to work the extra shift without asking him if it would be okay.  He doesn't like her newfound independence.  He's upset that she didn't feel that she had to ask for his permission to change the household routine.  He's used to being the one telling her what to do.

And maybe Monroe plays a part in this scene, too.  Ennis says, "Well, tell him you made a fuckin' mistake."  Ennis doesn't say, "Tell them...." (the "them" being some other employee who couldn't work those particular hours).  The "him" is obviously Monroe.  By working the extra shift, Alma is doing Monroe a favor.  In Ennis's mind, she's doing something to please Monroe, putting Monroe before the needs of her own family, and Ennis doesn't like it.

The depiction of the girls' reaction to the fight is perfect in that scene, especially how they turn away from Ennis after they say, "No."  Although they would love a push from Ennis, they're not going to give him the satisfaction of being allowed to give them one.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2008, 12:38:38 pm »
I think Ennis and Alma had an argument because their married life was far from being perfect; in this situation,any insignificant question can become a problem and a struggle.And it's obvious that the more attached he was to Jack-even if he didn't want to admit to himself...-,the less he was to Alma.Ennis wasn't easy with his marriage,with the role he had chosen because he had to give the image he thought society obliged him to give.This is his greatest frustration,and this frustration turned into violence; as in this scene,the fight with the motards,with the driver,even his reaction to Alma's discovering of her knowledge about who was Jack Nasty...
In this case,we can say he wasn't a good father, as well as a good husband,because this violence is a psychical aggression sooner or later to children,who see that something is going wrong at home.Not directly,but indirectly.
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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2008, 09:12:42 pm »
I was thinking about this again today at work (even when I'm not here I feel like I should be - lol!) and I couldn't help but think that in comparison to some of the dysfunctional families that are commonplace these days, okay they weren't perfect, and they made mistakes, but they did as well as they knew how to for their kids, and at least they were around for their kids. It would have been easy in some ways (ignoring the whole huge thing about Ennis's fears etc. for a moment) for them to decide they'd had enough of living a lie and either go off together, or just to leave their wives so that at least they were "single" and would have had more freedom to meet up periodically. Admittedly Ennis probably used his kids as an excuse for not leaving Alma and going with Jack a lot of the time, especially in the later years, but in that era the idea of family and of marriage, and family life was still entrenched in the views of society, and it wasn't thought proper that unmarried women would rear children alone, and the idea of "waiting until you were married" before having sex, or children was still the norm.

I'm not saying that we should return to that, and I'm not wanting to make a moralistic judgement - I know everyone's circumstances are different, and I personally don't have a problem with single mothers, single fathers, etc. etc., but in today's society the whole idea of "family" often breaks down, and where kids are involved, it's often the kids that suffer.

There's a case not too far from where I live recently where a 9 year old girl was abducted, and was missing for 24 days before the police found her. When she was found it turned out she'd been abducted by the uncle of her mother's partner. The mother has something like 8 kids by 5 different fathers - some of them live with her, some live with their father, and some have no contact with their fathers. When the girl was found, rather than being reunited with her mother and taken home, the police got an emergency care order to take her into foster care. Neighbours have been reported as saying that she was "lost" long before she was abducted. Even her grandparents are now saying that she shouldn't be returned to her mother.

Obviously I know only what's reported by the media, and it's easy for me to judge the situation, but working as I do in social housing, all the time I see  kids caught up in the middle of disputes between their parents, who may or may not live together, kids who are moved from pillar to post and lack any stability in their lives, and that's very common, and more and more common these days.

Should parents always stay together for the sake of the children? No. That's not always the best situation for either the kids or the parents, but day in day out when you see kids with no stability in their lives, no sense of belonging, no firm discipline or guiding force, no male role model in their lives, you start to wonder if maybe the old ways were better.

At least Bobby and Francine/Jenny, and Alma Jnr had their fathers in their lives and that stability. Undoubtedly the girls at least knew there were problems between their parents, but they had two parents who loved them, and who were there for them. Their fathers weren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they they weren't abusive to their kids, and they were present in their lives, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of kids these days get.


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Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2008, 12:17:19 pm »
This is a hard one to me because there are many definitions to what makes a "good father"

Generally for both Jack and Ennis I feel that neither of them were very good father due to the fact that neither lived the life they wanted. I think unhappy people make not so good parents.´If people are happy I think it´s much easier for them to be good parents. Even if Ennis for example tries to be a good dad, I´m sure the girls must feel that they never really know their dad. Kids know more that we think.

Jack, I think, would have left Bobby. When Jack is talking about Lureen´s dad offering to pay him for leaving...I do think that staying away completely is what Lureen´s dad had in mind.

I think that there´s a point in portraying both Ennis and Jack as bad parents, it´s part of Proulx´ mission statement about showing the effects of Jack and Ennis´tragic lovestory on not only them but on the people close to them.

But, I must say, I think that both Jack and Ennis loved their kids, but due to never being happy themselves or show who they really were to the world, they could never truly connec with their children.

Bobby, Alma Jr and Jenny are victims just as much as Jack and Ennis are.

it´s all just so so sad

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2008, 12:44:49 pm »
Bobby, Alma Jr and Jenny are victims just as much as Jack and Ennis are.

it´s all just so so sad

That sums it up perfectly.


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Marge_Innavera

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2008, 01:17:05 pm »
But a possible saving remnant was that Junior, Jenny and Bobby did not grow up with baggage left by abusive fathers to deal with.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2008, 02:00:13 pm »
But a possible saving remnant was that Junior, Jenny and Bobby did not grow up with baggage left by abusive fathers to deal with.

No, but they probably grew up with baggage left over by abandonment by fathers, absent fathers and tense home lives.  Bobby would have grown up with his father obviously a hanger-on in the home, what with Lureen's father lording it over him and Lureen, up until Jack took his household back from him.  But by then, the damage was done, Bobby was already used to his father being 2nd fiddle, and the lack of intimacy between the parents probably wasn't lost on him either.  Lureen was probably pretty testy about it and took it out on Jack in various subtle ways.  Plus Jack traveled for his job, who knows how long or often he was away from home?  Ennis' impact on his girls I've already mentioned.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 10:12:36 pm by delalluvia »

Marge_Innavera

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2008, 02:55:59 pm »
That doesn't alter what I just posted. Breaking the cycle of abuse isn't on a par with being a better housekeeper or more handy around the house than the parents or grandparents were.  It's a significant change from one generation to another.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2008, 03:13:05 pm »
That doesn't alter what I just posted. Breaking the cycle of abuse isn't on a par with being a better housekeeper or more handy around the house than the parents or grandparents were.  It's a significant change from one generation to another.

It isn't a matter of losing out on having a better housekeeper or handy person around the house.  Children can have serious issues later in life with abandonment and absent parents, whether physically absent or emotionally absent.  They have difficulty having normal relationships with other people because they are insecure or they are distant with their partners because this is what they learned as children is normal.  Men and women allow themselves to be used and abused and you hear the excuse "but they love me' or 'it's better than being alone'.  Some will accept any treatment rather than be abandoned.  Others can become abusers or users themselves, seeing no reason to become close or commit emotionally to another person because they have seen the advantages of staying aloof and keeping their distance rather than risk the pain and trauma of being close to someone who doesn't return the feelings.

While I agree that all of this is better than being physically and verbally abused, I daresay it borders on emotional abuse at worst or negligence at best and the ramifications can be serious and insidious and long-term.

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2008, 03:52:14 pm »
While I agree that all of this is better than being physically and verbally abused, I daresay it borders on emotional abuse at worst or negligence at best and the ramifications can be serious and insidious and long-term.

In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is.  IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2008, 08:29:08 pm »
In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is.  IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.

Heya,

I agree with this.  And, it has to be recognized that no one's perfect (ever) when it comes to parenting.  And, the circumstances for Ennis and Jack were particularly challenging.  In that light I think the each did very well.  Neither one was perfect.  But, I think each did well enough to be considered good fathers or at least caring/loving fathers.  So, in basic response to the question of this TOTW, I don't think either Jack or Ennis could be called "bad fathers" (especially when the extremes of "bad fathers" are considered... neither one is abusive, a deadbeat, etc.).  As I've stated previously, I also think each did much better than their own fathers... which really is quite a feat.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2008, 10:11:45 pm »
In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is.  IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.

OK.  I understand what you're saying but IMO just because someone was not as abusive as their parents doesn't by default make them a better parent.  They are still bad, just not as bad.  Even considering the times Ennis was living.  He was a crappy husband to Alma and an absentee father to his children.  In any time, to abandon one's children because of one's own needs has never been a sign of a good father.

Offline winterhug

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2008, 11:20:27 pm »
Getting back to the topic...  No, they were not particularly bad fathers. They did the best they could and that's all any of us can say.
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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2008, 11:21:41 am »
They did the best they could and that's all any of us can say.

I agree. Given the complex situation, I think they did the best they could. Neither intentionally set out to harm their kids, and I think Ennis more so than Jack was acutely aware of his responsibilities, though undoubtedly he didn't always get it right, and didn't always do the right thing.

At the end of the film  when Alma Jnr visits Ennis to tell him about her engagement she's obviously still close to her father (the fact he doesn't know her fiance's name is I think more of a "father" thing than any sign of distance between her and Ennis IMHO from the easy way she laughs with him about it though) and in the SS's prologue Ennis says that he "might have to stay with his married daughter" (presumably Alma Jnr), which suggests they still have a good relationship. 


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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2008, 11:35:20 am »
I agree. Given the complex situation, I think they did the best they could.

I completely disagree.  Quitting jobs when your children need to eat so you can meet with your lover isn't 'good' or 'the best anyone could do' by any stretch of the imagination.  That's just selfish and irresponsible, plain and simple.

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Neither intentionally set out to harm their kids, and I think Ennis more so than Jack was acutely aware of his responsibilities, though undoubtedly he didn't always get it right, and didn't always do the right thing.

At the end of the film  when Alma Jnr visits Ennis to tell him about her engagement she's obviously still close to her father (the fact he doesn't know her fiance's name is I think more of a "father" thing than any sign of distance between her and Ennis IMHO from the easy way she laughs with him about it though) and in the SS's prologue Ennis says that he "might have to stay with his married daughter" (presumably Alma Jnr), which suggests they still have a good relationship. 

It may not necessarily be good.  Ennis' daughter in the story may just be dutiful.  A friend of mine would never turn her mother away if she was unemployed and needing a place to stay.  I've seen her do it.  And she despises her mother, was emotionally abused by her and still is.  But to her, the woman is still  her mother, so she won't turn her away.  Another friend of mine is having Easter dinner with her father tonight.  She's been having long talks with him recently, ever since she learned he has come out of remission and is probably terminal with lymphoma.  And he physically, emotionally and verbally abused her her entire childhood.  She also despises him, and time has not changed him.  He isn't sorry for what he did to her, completely unapologetic.  But, she figures, the man is dying, what's she going to do?  Turn away his gestures?

Parents and their children can be held together by all sorts of things, it isn't necessarily indicative of a 'good' relationship between them.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 03:42:13 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2008, 06:36:55 pm »
I don't think they were bad fathers. I think especially Ennis was a loving father who really doted on his daughters. No, he wasn't perfect, but I think it's important to take in account the given time and place.

I think given the time and place, Ennis was pretty much involved in the upbringing of his girls (at least until the divorce). When they were small, we see him taking care of them directly when coming home from work (someone else has already mentioned this). He did either bring them to bed or has checked on them before we see him having sex with Alma - and he is shown to do these things naturally; Alma doesn't send him to see after the girls in the first scene. He did not come home and relax and expect Alma to do everything else.

Sure he dumps the girls with Alma at the grocery store when his boss called - but he was willing to take care of them when Alma was working and he wasn't. How many fathers of that time were willing to do so? Heck, how many fathers today are willing to do so?
And what else could he have done in this situation? He could have organized someone else to look after the kids (Alma's sister for example). But he did say he was in a big hurry, so maybe his boss was very impatient and bossy, we simply don't know. And although Alma had a job, I don't think she was the main bread winner.

I think it's not a prove of being a bad parent when the parent who was destined to look after the kids on a specific time and date suddenly has something coming up which makes a change of plans necessary. It has happened in our family life more than once, on both sides.
And it's also pretty usual for parents to argue over it at such occasions or even throw a fit (as Ennis does with Alma's extra shift later in the movie).

Speaking of that specific argument:

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From Amanda:
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?

I don't think it was about her extra shift. I think it was just an example of the increasing tension and the toll the situation took on all persons involved. Perhaps the argument has begun over something completely different, or one or both of them was simply ill-humored and stressed out on this day.
The arguments Ennis brings are not at all strong, especially in the light that normally he didn't have qualms with Alma working and him seeing after the kids for that time. To me it seems he simply doesn't know what else to say and betakes to stereotypes just for the sake to make a point. Not an uncommon strategy in arguments. People often say things of which they know they're BS, just for the sake to make a point, or to further provokate the other one.
And Alma is not impressed by his behaviour at all, she knows how weak his arguments are. She yells back at him just as good. And also in front of the girls. Which is not the best thing to do of both Ennis and Alma, but does not necessarily result in permanent damage on their kids.

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2008, 06:42:04 pm »
I agree that Ennis was a remarkably good father, even after the divorce. I can really relate to Ennis in that role, because I watch the pains that DL makes in order to spend as much time with his boy as he can. And, like Alma, DL's ex gives him no trouble in seeing his kid, but it is tough for a man to in effect reorder his life around two agendas :

1) his new life made after the divorce
2) visitation with the kids of the old marriage

this is very conflicting for many men, and one of the reasons why many divorced men do not keep up with the kids, sad but true.

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2008, 06:45:46 pm »
Sure he dumps the girls with Alma at the grocery store when his boss called - but he was willing to take care of them when Alma was working and he wasn't. How many fathers of that time were willing to do so? Heck, how many fathers today are willing to do so?
And what else could he have done in this situation? He could have organized someone else to look after the kids (Alma's sister for example). But he did say he was in a big hurry, so maybe his boss was very impatient and bossy, we simply don't know. And although Alma had a job, I don't think she was the main bread winner.

That's a good point. If his boss was very impatient he'd be in danger of losing his job if he didn't go in and do what needed to be done. He does say to Alma, "I can't afford to not be there when them heifers calve. Be my job if I lose any of 'em". I guess on that occasion he was thinking of the welfare of his family.


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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2008, 07:50:46 pm »
I swear, I was gonna get some work done tonight, but I keep getting drawn back to this damned place!  :laugh:

I've just had a thought about the final scene - just before the end with Ennis and the shirts, when Alma Jnr visits Ennis. At first Ennis says he can't make it to the wedding because he's supposed to be on a roundup near the Tetons, but when he sees Alma Jnr's disappointed look (which personally I think shows she wasn't there out of a sense of duty) he changes his mind and says "I reckon they can find themselves another cowboy".

I think that the scene with Alma shows that he has changed. At first he doesn't say yes to his daughter, that he'd go to the wedding, in the same way he couldn't say yes to seeing Jack in August because he had to work. Maybe though Jack's death made him realise that he it's no use putting things that aren't really that important first, and that he has to take the chances when they come. He realised it too late for him and Jack, but not too late for him and his daughter. It allows Ennis some redemption as a character if that makes any sense, and shows that he's learned from his mistakes. Maybe he wasn't entirely the father the girls wanted or needed when they were younger, but maybe he can make up for that and build a stronger relationship with his daughters as adults?


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Offline cricket99999

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2008, 06:57:55 pm »
And maybe Monroe plays a part in this scene, too.  Ennis says, "Well, tell him you made a fuckin' mistake."  Ennis doesn't say, "Tell them...." (the "them" being some other employee who couldn't work those particular hours).  The "him" is obviously Monroe.  By working the extra shift, Alma is doing Monroe a favor.  In Ennis's mind, she's doing something to please Monroe, putting Monroe before the needs of her own family, and Ennis doesn't like it.

In fact, the mention of Monroe is the entire reason for this scene.  To smooth the transition to Alma as wife of Monroe.  Most moviegoers, unlike the rest of us, did not read the story before seeing the movie.  Imagine, without this scene, the BBM novice seeing Monroe at the Thanksgiving table.  They would know only that Alma worked for him once, years ago -- back when the girls were babies.  The swingset scene is what informs viewers that Alma works at the grocery through the years.  That, IMO, is the purpose of the scene.  It's a bonus that we see Alma honor the promise to her employer, making his needs a priority over her ranting husband's 'needs'. 

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2008, 09:36:56 pm »
In fact, the mention of Monroe is the entire reason for this scene.  To smooth the transition to Alma as wife of Monroe.  Most moviegoers, unlike the rest of us, did not read the story before seeing the movie.  Imagine, without this scene, the BBM novice seeing Monroe at the Thanksgiving table.  They would know only that Alma worked for him once, years ago -- back when the girls were babies.  The swingset scene is what informs viewers that Alma works at the grocery through the years.  That, IMO, is the purpose of the scene. 

That's a good point. I hadn't thought about it like that.


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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2008, 11:03:34 pm »
In fact, the mention of Monroe is the entire reason for this scene.  To smooth the transition to Alma as wife of Monroe.  Most moviegoers, unlike the rest of us, did not read the story before seeing the movie.  Imagine, without this scene, the BBM novice seeing Monroe at the Thanksgiving table.  They would know only that Alma worked for him once, years ago -- back when the girls were babies.  The swingset scene is what informs viewers that Alma works at the grocery through the years.  That, IMO, is the purpose of the scene.  It's a bonus that we see Alma honor the promise to her employer, making his needs a priority over her ranting husband's 'needs'.  

perhaps, but its just as likely that she could also be "courting" Monroe on the sly and wanted to use every opportunity to be with him. and perhaps Ennis's reaction isn't a purposeless "rant" but he is jealous and angry because he understands  what is going on between Alma  and Monroe. 

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2008, 11:11:03 pm »
The answer is No!!

Ennis and Jack were good fathers!!

If you think that they were bad, wait till you see BAD!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2008, 11:13:28 pm »
Ennis in particular may have been a good father, but he was a lousy husband. Alma must be a part of the equation, she had feelings and needs which were deeply violated by Ennis.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2008, 12:32:11 am »
Ennis in particular may have been a good father, but he was a lousy husband. Alma must be a part of the equation, she had feelings and needs which were deeply violated by Ennis.

Yes, Ennis was a bad husband to Alma.  Ennis wasn't in any real particular a good father.  If you take the story in abstract and say,

Hey, there's this unhappily married couple - well, he's unhappy.  The wife is trying to make the marriage work, but the husband wants to be with his lover and there's no way the marriage is going to work, but he likes the marriage and having kids because it gives him status and so even though he is the primary breadwinner in his family - if not the only one at times - and his wife is a stay at home mom with their two young children, he has no problem quitting his jobs, neglecting his wife, dumping the kids with her whenever he wants to run off with his lover for weekends and vacations.  He never bothers to take his family on vacations.

Now keep the whole BBM story out of this.

Do you still want to give the husband awards for being a 'good father'?

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2008, 09:49:55 am »
Yes, I still think Ennis was a good father.  He was certainly flawed too.  But, in a nutshell, I think he was a good father or at least much better than some.  And, again, back to the comparison with his own Dad and OMT, Ennis was a very good dad in comparison in my opinion.

Being providing money and being in love with a child's mother (or not) are not the only measures of a good father.




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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2008, 11:33:22 am »
Yes, I still think Ennis was a good father.  He was certainly flawed too.  But, in a nutshell, I think he was a good father or at least much better than some.  And, again, back to the comparison with his own Dad and OMT, Ennis was a very good dad in comparison in my opinion.

Being providing money and being in love with a child's mother (or not) are not the only measures of a good father.
I agree with you,atz75.Ennis,and to some extent Jack,could perfectly have the image of their own fathers to mirror them-what is very common...-They easily could have repeated the same patterns as a fathers that they suffered as a sons.And,in exchange,they were worried about their studies and comfort in general and,in Ennis case,nobody can discuss his great love for his daughters.That's much more than both of them could say as a sons...
They had mistakes and faults-what made them more humans and easily identified with ordinary people-that come from their own strange situation and that,unfortunately,made their children other victims in a secundary place,that's true.When a couple doesn't work,their children also pay the consequences to a greater or lesser extent,no matter how easy want their parents make their living way...But,as you say,being or not in love with the child's mother is not what measures if a man is a good father or not-in any case,he would be not a good husband-.





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« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 01:33:21 pm by myprivatejack »
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