TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?

[delalluvia]

OK, yes, I can see this.

With this interpretation in mind... It seems to me that one of the functions of this scene is to demonstrate how much angst, strife and stress over gender roles existed for Ennis within the context of a heterosexual marriage.  The peace and calm and utter willingness to switch off with different domestic tasks/ work (i.e. tending vs. herding) between Jack and Ennis is such a contrast.  Ennis's behavior on Brokeback shows that the anxiety over tasks that are often perceived to be gender specific just melts away in a single-gender context for him.  Ennis seems perfectly happy to be camp tender, and he seems perfectly happy to switch with Jack.  There's no stress in that.  He washes dishes and cooks Jack's food, etc.  So, in that context... and in the context of the relationship where he feels most comfortable... the same issues just simply don't exist where it comes to work load (compared to his experience and unfair expectations with Alma).

It's a combination of both.  Fernly hinted at this.  Ennis just isn't happy in his heterosexual life.  He's happy with Jack and he's at peace while they're at Brokeback Mountain.  But the snake in their paradise is that he feels fear and shame for what he actually is, and so is unhappy about that as well.  So he ends up expressing his anger at Alma, at drunken bikers, etc.

[delalluvia]

Yes, I think Jack's father probably was more consistently abusive towards Jack. 

I think the Earl incident alone (even if it's a totally isolated incident) is enough to constitute horrific (I mean criminally horrific) emotional and mental abuse towards young children.  I mean, we know this scared Ennis for life and essentially helped ruin his chances at happiness with Jack.

It's been noted in other threads that the Earl story comes as something of a surprise to film viewers (in its horror) because earlier Ennis makes rather positive or somewhat affectionate-sounding comments about his father.  In the "most I've spoken in a year" conversation he says "I think my Dad was right", etc. and says that he admired his Dad's skill as a roper, etc.  So, the awfulness of the Earl story comes as quite a contrast.

Also, in the way Ennis tells the story about Earl, he also implies that he wonders whether his father was actually the murderer or among the murderers of Earl... by saying "Hell, for all I know, he done the job."

So, I definitely stand by the assertion that Ennis's Dad was emotionally abusive.  In this case, one time only was definitely enough to constitute this accusation.

I'm not so sure.  Did you ever see the movie "Betrayed"?  With Tom Berenger?  Ennis' dad could have been similar to the main character.   A man who is kind, a good father,sweet, attractive can also hide a very dark side.  One that he doesn't let his kids see.  In Ennis' case, he did let his boys (but not daughter, Ennis' sister mind you) see.  At least he did once.   And about Ennis' dad doing the job, well, that's just Ennis' suspicions.  Ennis had a lot of those.

[Brown Eyes]

I'm not so sure.  Did you ever see the movie "Betrayed"?  With Tom Berenger?  Ennis' dad could have been similar to the main character.   A man who is kind, a good father,sweet, attractive can also hide a very dark side.  One that he doesn't let his kids see.  In Ennis' case, he did let his boys (but not daughter, Ennis' sister mind you) see.  At least he did once.   And about Ennis' dad doing the job, well, that's just Ennis' suspicions.  Ennis had a lot of those.

Yes, it was Ennis's suspicion, but I think many or even most of Ennis's suspicions and fears grew directly out of the Earl incident.  The seed for Ennis's suspicions that his father could have been a murderer were planted somehow and somewhere.  That's a pretty god-awful thing to suspect about a parent.  And, I think his father planted them himself. 

No, I've never seen Betrayed.  But, in the case of Ennis's father... his "very dark side" wasn't hidden to either Ennis or K.E.  His father chose to expose his young sons to that gruesome scene out of some sick and twisted idea that he was teaching them some kind of lesson.  And, I'll just say again, that even the way the Earl flashback is shot... with the headless father guiding the two boys by the shoulders to view a murder scene just screams emotional and psychological torment to me.  If Ennis's father was "proud" enough of the Earl scene to go to the trouble to drag his sons out there to look at it... it doesn't seem like a huge stretch to imagine that he would have at least been capable of participating in the murder or tacitly encouraging such an event to take place.

And, I'll just repeat my belief that one incident is enough to make a parent an abusive monster.  This is more or less the case, in terms of what we know about Old Man Twist too.  We only really know the details of the one horrendous scene of physical abuse in the bathroom (from the story only and not the film).  We don't know details about other physical abuse, although I think it's reasonable to extrapolate from that scene that OMT might have been routinely abusive.  Still, if the bathroom scene was an isolated incident, it would still make OMT a horrific, abusive father.

My threshold for a definition of child abuse is pretty low, so from my point of view, both the case of Ennis's father and Jack's father easily rise to the level of what I'd consider child abuse.




So, anyway... the point here is that it seems that Ennis and Jack are both much, much better fathers then their own.  I truly believe this.

[BlissC]

So, anyway... the point here is that it seems that Ennis and Jack are both much, much better fathers then their own.  I truly believe this.

I agree. They both had their faults, but they did the best they could I think in the circumstances. Given the fact that both had abusive childhoods, which still had a great effect on them as adults, I think it's a testament to them that neither perpetuated the cycle of abuse they'd experienced as children. Ennis's fears as a result of his childhood are clear to see, but Jack's are more subtle. He tells Ennis about his childhood, which shows a great trust in Ennis, but the fireside scene where he's talking about his rodeoing career is also telling. I can't remember how the exact line goes, but he starts off saying that his father never told him any bull-riding secrets, but more telling I think is the fact he says "never once came to see me ride" Despite his father's treatment of him, he still wants OMT's approval and recognition. I think he's also very aware not the make the same mistakes with his own son.

The argument over who was the most abusive, OMT or Ennis's father, depends I guess on your perspective, and as Amanda says, your threashold for a definition of child abuse. Okay, so neither of them are ever going to win a parent of the year award, but they did the best the knew how to given the complex situation, and I think the key is that although undoubtably their kids did suffer in the crossfire of the situation, they never intentionally set out to harm their kids.

[Marge_Innavera]

Thinking about Ennis and the traumatic Thanksgiving with Alma and Monroe... there's a detail in Proulx's story that may or may not come across to a film-viewer-only.  In the aftermath of the Thanksgiving fight in the kitchen it says:

"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left.  He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."

IMO this aspect is a major difference between the story and film, for both Ennis and Jack.  In the next scene with Ennis and Alma Junior (after the Thanksgiving scene), she's much older but obviously not old enough to move out of her mother's and stepfather's house. So whatever "a long time" was in the film, the last scene with Junior and her wedding announcement was not the first time he'd seen her.  In Jack's case, he doesn't seem to have any qualms about leaving his son when he proposes that he and Ennis get a ranch together; but on the other hand, you do see him spending some time with his son in one scene and being concerned about Bobby's need for a tutor in the scene with Lureen.

In my more recent viewings of the movie, for some reason Ennis' scenes with his daughters as babies and young children is especially poignant, particularly the earliest one where one is a baby and the other a toddler -- Ennis looks tired and stressed out but he doesn't look unhappy and for 1967, his level of everyday involvement with the two children is unusual.  That he doesn't see them as often in later years is one aspect of his life having been distorted by his not being able to live the kind of life he was meant to.  Even if he had overcome those fears to the point that he and Jack would be able to live together, it's quite possible that he'd have to keep Alma from finding out if he didn't want her to go back to court and cancel any visiation rights. In that case, the law itself would ensure that he wouldn't be seeing him until they were of legal age to make their own decisions. And who knows how much things could have been mended by that point?

It's more ambiguous in the SS, but the prologue's mention of his possibly moving in with his 'married daughter' would seem to indicate that he hasn't been permanently estranged from his children.

And as it's been stated in earlier posts, there's also the fact that both Ennis and Jack have less than ideal fathers, to put it mildly: both fathers have abused them in their own ways.  However many generations in both families that kind of parenting might have been going on, Ennis and Jack did manage to stop it in their relationships with their children.

[Fran]

Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?

I think Ennis is angry because Alma agreed to work the extra shift without asking him if it would be okay.  He doesn't like her newfound independence.  He's upset that she didn't feel that she had to ask for his permission to change the household routine.  He's used to being the one telling her what to do.

And maybe Monroe plays a part in this scene, too.  Ennis says, "Well, tell him you made a fuckin' mistake."  Ennis doesn't say, "Tell them...." (the "them" being some other employee who couldn't work those particular hours).  The "him" is obviously Monroe.  By working the extra shift, Alma is doing Monroe a favor.  In Ennis's mind, she's doing something to please Monroe, putting Monroe before the needs of her own family, and Ennis doesn't like it.

The depiction of the girls' reaction to the fight is perfect in that scene, especially how they turn away from Ennis after they say, "No."  Although they would love a push from Ennis, they're not going to give him the satisfaction of being allowed to give them one.

[myprivatejack]

I think Ennis and Alma had an argument because their married life was far from being perfect; in this situation,any insignificant question can become a problem and a struggle.And it's obvious that the more attached he was to Jack-even if he didn't want to admit to himself...-,the less he was to Alma.Ennis wasn't easy with his marriage,with the role he had chosen because he had to give the image he thought society obliged him to give.This is his greatest frustration,and this frustration turned into violence; as in this scene,the fight with the motards,with the driver,even his reaction to Alma's discovering of her knowledge about who was Jack Nasty...
In this case,we can say he wasn't a good father, as well as a good husband,because this violence is a psychical aggression sooner or later to children,who see that something is going wrong at home.Not directly,but indirectly.

[BlissC]

I was thinking about this again today at work (even when I'm not here I feel like I should be - lol!) and I couldn't help but think that in comparison to some of the dysfunctional families that are commonplace these days, okay they weren't perfect, and they made mistakes, but they did as well as they knew how to for their kids, and at least they were around for their kids. It would have been easy in some ways (ignoring the whole huge thing about Ennis's fears etc. for a moment) for them to decide they'd had enough of living a lie and either go off together, or just to leave their wives so that at least they were "single" and would have had more freedom to meet up periodically. Admittedly Ennis probably used his kids as an excuse for not leaving Alma and going with Jack a lot of the time, especially in the later years, but in that era the idea of family and of marriage, and family life was still entrenched in the views of society, and it wasn't thought proper that unmarried women would rear children alone, and the idea of "waiting until you were married" before having sex, or children was still the norm.

I'm not saying that we should return to that, and I'm not wanting to make a moralistic judgement - I know everyone's circumstances are different, and I personally don't have a problem with single mothers, single fathers, etc. etc., but in today's society the whole idea of "family" often breaks down, and where kids are involved, it's often the kids that suffer.

There's a case not too far from where I live recently where a 9 year old girl was abducted, and was missing for 24 days before the police found her. When she was found it turned out she'd been abducted by the uncle of her mother's partner. The mother has something like 8 kids by 5 different fathers - some of them live with her, some live with their father, and some have no contact with their fathers. When the girl was found, rather than being reunited with her mother and taken home, the police got an emergency care order to take her into foster care. Neighbours have been reported as saying that she was "lost" long before she was abducted. Even her grandparents are now saying that she shouldn't be returned to her mother.

Obviously I know only what's reported by the media, and it's easy for me to judge the situation, but working as I do in social housing, all the time I see  kids caught up in the middle of disputes between their parents, who may or may not live together, kids who are moved from pillar to post and lack any stability in their lives, and that's very common, and more and more common these days.

Should parents always stay together for the sake of the children? No. That's not always the best situation for either the kids or the parents, but day in day out when you see kids with no stability in their lives, no sense of belonging, no firm discipline or guiding force, no male role model in their lives, you start to wonder if maybe the old ways were better.

At least Bobby and Francine/Jenny, and Alma Jnr had their fathers in their lives and that stability. Undoubtedly the girls at least knew there were problems between their parents, but they had two parents who loved them, and who were there for them. Their fathers weren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they they weren't abusive to their kids, and they were present in their lives, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of kids these days get.

[Monika]

This is a hard one to me because there are many definitions to what makes a "good father"

Generally for both Jack and Ennis I feel that neither of them were very good father due to the fact that neither lived the life they wanted. I think unhappy people make not so good parents.´If people are happy I think it´s much easier for them to be good parents. Even if Ennis for example tries to be a good dad, I´m sure the girls must feel that they never really know their dad. Kids know more that we think.

Jack, I think, would have left Bobby. When Jack is talking about Lureen´s dad offering to pay him for leaving...I do think that staying away completely is what Lureen´s dad had in mind.

I think that there´s a point in portraying both Ennis and Jack as bad parents, it´s part of Proulx´ mission statement about showing the effects of Jack and Ennis´tragic lovestory on not only them but on the people close to them.

But, I must say, I think that both Jack and Ennis loved their kids, but due to never being happy themselves or show who they really were to the world, they could never truly connec with their children.

Bobby, Alma Jr and Jenny are victims just as much as Jack and Ennis are.

it´s all just so so sad

[BlissC]

Bobby, Alma Jr and Jenny are victims just as much as Jack and Ennis are.

it´s all just so so sad

That sums it up perfectly.