Author Topic: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof  (Read 8215 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« on: March 24, 2008, 01:13:08 pm »

We've discussed Ennis crippling fears often. Understandable, given that Ennis is the one who internalized homophobia to an extent that the thought of wo men living together elicits only a „No way“ from him; and second he's the main character of both movie and story.

But what about Jack? What are his hang-ups and insecurities? Some of them clearly evolve around Ennis. He's afraid to go too far, to send Ennis into panic mode and thus drive him away. But apart from Ennis? He's actively hitting on Jimbo, he rode more than bulls (in the short story) during their four year hiatus, he found ways to spend money on his buying trips, drove to Mexico to hire a prostitute and he had another fella he wanted to build a cabin with in LF.

From the beginning he seems pretty comfortable with his sexuality. But yet he replies „Me neiter“ to Ennis's comment of not being queer. Only for Ennis's sake?
He marries Lureen. And stays married to her throughout his life.
He tries to fullfill the image of the tough cowboy, which clearly includes heterosexuality (given the time and place). And I'm sure nobody of us could picture Jack as a rainbow flag carrying advocate of gay rights.


So what are Jack's hang-ups (not only) regarding his sexuality?





Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 02:51:55 pm »
I´m sure Jack has hang ups as well, after all he married Lureen and has a child with her. I never thought Jack was very open about it at all, it just seems so because we compare him to Ennis who is cautious in the extreme. But Jack seems to be aware of that it is a good idea of being careful, like in the bar when he notices people talking about him after he hit on the cowboy, and he quickly leaves. I don´t think he doubts that being gay can be dangerous, but simply that he thinks it´s worth the risk.(something I admire him for)

I don´t see a reason to why he would doubt Ennis´s story either, I´m sure he alredy has heard stories like that before given the time he was raised in. I think that when Jack asks Ennis "did you see this?" it´s a questions of concern for Ennis and I think Jack gets a new understanding of Ennis.

To get back to Lureen. This is Jack´s biggest mistake in life, especially as he seems to be more aware of who he is and his desires than Ennis, and still he gets married. At times I can feel that maybe he wouldn´t have left Lureen after all, if Ennis indeed had said yes. We can never be sure of this because he is never put to the test.
 Jack was a dreamer but very little of his dreams came true. He never started a ranch and he never left Lureen. Perhaps he was more of a dreamer than a doer.

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 03:27:43 pm »
I think Jack's  biggest hang-ups were reality and Ennis. If Ennis had been willing to commit early on Jack probably would not have married.There would have been no reason for him too.It was not even as if he wanted kids.He unoubtedly had a higher sex drive than Ennis,hence the trips to Mexico,but I do not see that as a hang-up.
In view of the no commitment from Ennis he saw Lureens money as a way of esacaping at least one area of his life he was unhappy with,the grinding poverty he had come from.I do not mean that to seem as cold hearted and calculating as it sounds.I am pretty sure one gesture from Ennis and he woud have given it all up to live with him.I guess no Ennis and no money was too much to bear.
As far as his childhood goes ,I guess there would have been some hang-ups associated with his father,but not sufficient to stop him living the life of his dreams.He was forever the optimist,and as long as you have your dreams,that can make up for many a shortfall in reality.Take away the dreams and reality then bites hard.
Jack in the last meeting with Ennis surely feels the last remnants of his dream,get blown away on the wind.It is at this point that that his dreams maybe become his biggest hang-up.Hence his explosion,reality sucks.So could it be that Jacks dreams,once his greatest comfort,finally become his greatest hang-up, ultimately,the shattering of which,leads to his death.For Jack I do believe up untill then,hope had always sprung eternal.
He has I believe already died emotionally,when his dreams of a sweet life with Ennis died.All that remains is the physical death,which seems almost a forgone conclusion.Unbeknown to him,Ennis by trying to protect his lover has in fact done completely the reverse.Therein lies the horrrendous tragedy which haunts,Ennis and will continue to do so,and also us the viewer.Never has the phrase,we always hurt the one we love most,resonated more devastatingly.
It could be argued that whisky is a problem for Jack,but again had his dreams come to fruition,there may have been little need to drink so much.I am sure alcohol was a way to deaden the pain.In much the same way a his initial clowning around is in part a mask he uses to hide his true feelings for Ennis.

Reality therefore is ultimately the biggest hang-up for Jack.He is unable to deal with it.He hides behind,alcohol,sex trips to Mexico,marriage,clown masks,and dreams.But behind all those maskes is the one constant,his love for Ennis.His greatest joy and ultimately his undoing.

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 03:33:28 pm »


But behind all those maskes is the one constant,his love for Ennis.His greatest joy and ultimately his undoing.

that made me wanna cry all of a sudden. Beautifully put. Sometimes it does feel as if it would have been better for both of them of they´d never met.


I liked your conclusions about jack´s hang-ups being his dreams and his reality because he never managed the melt the two together. And like you say, when he realises that himself his spirit dies and shortly afterwards his body.

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 04:13:49 pm »
that made me wanna cry all of a sudden. Beautifully put. Sometimes it does feel as if it would have been better for both of them of they´d never met.


I liked your conclusions about jack´s hang-ups being his dreams and his reality because he never managed the melt the two together. And like you say, when he realises that himself his spirit dies and shortly afterwards his body.
Thankyou for your lovely comments.
Is that not the beauty of it though.We are lost in the tragedy of their meeting.We the viewer ache to shout and scream at them as we watch it unfold before us.Yet at the same time are  simultaneously rendered speechless, by the hold they have over us and our emotions.What a paradox.For the first time ,the film led me to truly understand the phrase,dumbstruck.It is like those terrible nightmares you sometimes have, when you open your mouth and no sound is emitted.That is how I felt when I first watched the film,with tears streaming down my face.
It was like a moving,living, breathing version of that painting,the scream,watching dreams become nightmares.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 01:33:44 pm »
Thankyou for your lovely comments.
Is that not the beauty of it though.We are lost in the tragedy of their meeting.We the viewer ache to shout and scream at them as we watch it unfold before us.Yet at the same time are  simultaneously rendered speechless, by the hold they have over us and our emotions.What a paradox.For the first time ,the film led me to truly understand the phrase,dumbstruck.It is like those terrible nightmares you sometimes have, when you open your mouth and no sound is emitted.That is how I felt when I first watched the film,with tears streaming down my face.
It was like a moving,living, breathing version of that painting,the scream,watching dreams become nightmares.
Beautiful post,Optom¡ It's what most of us have felt sometimes watching BBM,but indeed you've put it into words much better... :'(
Coming back to the topic,I really think that all Jack's hang-ups were,as you said,Ennis and reality.And I'd add that not having a real support in his daily life to win reality,on one side,and Ennis fears,on the other side.He had nobody by his side who believed in him and in his possibilities,neither as son,nor as husband or father...And the only one who could believe it-Ennis-was his greater enemy in this sense;it wasn't a question of believing in him,but to believe in what he dreamed about-or better,to admit it...-.In spite of this,or maybe because of this,Jack had during all his life enough touch as not to put Ennis against the ropes,obliging him to decide something;his main fear was to fear Ennis so much as he could run  away from him. Maybe this behaviour was the reason of his progressive lost of dreams and illusions and lead to a final confrontation that must take place much before,IMO.Yes,surely Jack was a dreamer much more than a doer,but his own circumstances made him lost his strenght to fight for what he wanted and get it in the end... :'(  :'(
Ah¡ Pentesilea,you said:"And I'm sure nobody of us could picture Jack as a rainbow flag carrying advocate of gay rights."Of course not,but he could be a kind of rough predecessor.In the sense that,for me at least,fighting for having a dignity as a same-sex couple in the difficult environment of the rural  60´s America  could be the most similar to what we understand this now.I don't know if this makes sense...

I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 05:25:36 pm »
Aw, Jeez! I can see this week's gonna be a tough one. It's already set me off again sniffling just reading the comments so far!  :'(

He was forever the optimist,and as long as you have your dreams,that can make up for many a shortfall in reality.Take away the dreams and reality then bites hard.
Jack in the last meeting with Ennis surely feels the last remnants of his dream,get blown away on the wind.It is at this point that that his dreams maybe become his biggest hang-up.Hence his explosion,reality sucks.So could it be that Jacks dreams,once his greatest comfort,finally become his greatest hang-up, ultimately,the shattering of which,leads to his death.For Jack I do believe up until then,hope had always sprung eternal.
He has I believe already died emotionally,when his dreams of a sweet life with Ennis died.All that remains is the physical death,which seems almost a forgone conclusion.Unbeknown to him,Ennis by trying to protect his lover has in fact done completely the reverse.Therein lies the horrendous tragedy which haunts,Ennis and will continue to do so,and also us the viewer.Never has the phrase,we always hurt the one we love most,resonated more devastatingly.

I agree. Reality was Jack's greatest single hang-up. As you say Optom, by their final meeting Jack has already died emotionally, and that's yet another of the tragedies that unfolds through the course of the story - the fact that we first meet a young man who's a dreamer, and watch as year by year those dreams get crushed ever further away and unattainable, and as you say, the physical death does seem almost a foregone conclusion. There is no other possible conclusion to the story.

Quote
behind all those masks is the one constant,his love for Ennis. His greatest joy and ultimately his undoing.

*gulp* I'm so not gonna cry again....okay then so I am...

We are lost in the tragedy of their meeting.We the viewer ache to shout and scream at them as we watch it unfold before us.Yet at the same time are  simultaneously rendered speechless, by the hold they have over us and our emotions.What a paradox.For the first time ,the film led me to truly understand the phrase,dumbstruck.It is like those terrible nightmares you sometimes have, when you open your mouth and no sound is emitted.That is how I felt when I first watched the film,with tears streaming down my face.
It was like a moving,living, breathing version of that painting,the scream,watching dreams become nightmares.

Dumbstruck. That sums it up perfectly. I've only ever watched the film in silence. I could never put into spoken words anyhow the emotions it makes me feel. Having said that, since the second time I've watched the film I always speak three words, or rather whisper them, because it's my own private promise, right at the end of the film. "Jack, I swear..." I'm not the swearing kind either, but...

Back to Jack's hang-ups though, there's an interesting line in the story, right at the beginning about Jack - "he was crazy to be somewhere, anywhere else than Lightning Flat". I guess part of it's maybe his hang-ups about his father, and I can't help but feel that's part of the reason he's "crazy" over Ennis. He tells Ennis up on the mountain, "Can't please my old man, no way", and he tells Ennis he never went to see him rodeo. Part of me feels he gave up hope of ever trying to please his father, to impress him, but he he transfers that need to be approved of, to do whatever he can to please, to Ennis. Cook for Ennis, do his washing, drive 14 hours to be with Ennis, drive straight there when he heard about Ennis's divorce...A lot of it was obviously just wanting desperately to be with Ennis, but I can't help but feel that there was an element of wanting Ennis's approval, Ennis's respect. He didn't get it from his wife, or his father-in-law, or even he hints from his son's teacher. Ennis was the one person who accepted him.



"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 06:40:15 pm »
BlissC that is such a good point you made about wanting approval.It is glaringly obvious when I think of it.He is like a child in many ways,desperate to please and gain some recognition.It should have slapped me in the face as I am very much like that.My father had such high standards for us,his approval was almost impossible to gain.
Only recently has he said how proud he is of me.Every relationship I have been in,bar one I have acted as Jack,desperately seeking,the pat on the back.Always doing the running around.
So I agree 100% it is a big hang-up of his.Undoubtedly having its roots in his damaging relationship  with his father.Jake acts it so brilliantly as well,now I look at it from that angle,all doe eyed and silent pleading.Yes part of it is love,but that is inextricably bound up with wanting approval.The two go hand in hand.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 07:32:32 pm »
The posts here are really great and really sum Jack up perfectly.

I have always wondered about what kind of conclusion Jack and Ennis came to after the last lake scene, and if it was the end of Jack's dreams.

The emotional outburst from Ennis, was the first time he had ever let his true feelings and insecurities out, he was telling Jack, in a round about way, that "its because of you, Jack, I'm this way"......he was finally telling him that he loved him (in a round about way), telling him that its because of what there is between the two of them, that has controlled his whole life.

I have always thought, that instead of being the end of Jack's dreams, it would have been some reassurance that Ennis felt exactly the same way about him as he did....

We dont know what happened between the two of them, after the grasping clutch on the ground, or what was said in reply to what Ennis said, but the one consolation we do have, is that Jack did not die wondering.......he did know how Ennis felt.

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 07:52:46 pm »
Jake acts it so brilliantly as well,now I look at it from that angle,all doe eyed and silent pleading.Yes part of it is love,but that is inextricably bound up with wanting approval.The two go hand in hand.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Optom. Jack talks, Jack's always talking, always acting the clown, but it's what he doesn't say that's much more telling, and Jake portrays that so brilliantly. 


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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2008, 08:16:25 pm »
I have always wondered about what kind of conclusion Jack and Ennis came to after the last lake scene, and if it was the end of Jack's dreams.

I think going back to the original story, Annie sums it up perfectly, "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved".

Quote
The emotional outburst from Ennis, was the first time he had ever let his true feelings and insecurities out, he was telling Jack, in a round about way, that "its because of you, Jack, I'm this way"......he was finally telling him that he loved him (in a round about way), telling him that its because of what there is between the two of them, that has controlled his whole life.

I have always thought, that instead of being the end of Jack's dreams, it would have been some reassurance that Ennis felt exactly the same way about him as he did....

We don't know what happened between the two of them, after the grasping clutch on the ground, or what was said in reply to what Ennis said, but the one consolation we do have, is that Jack did not die wondering.......he did know how Ennis felt.

I've never looked at it that way, but I can see that now in a way, though I'm still not sure that Jack did know, not entirely. As far as we know, that was the first time Ennis broke down in Jack's presence, and I guess the closest he was ever going to come to telling him that he loved him, but Jack craves affection, craves reassurance, and he's not getting that from Ennis - "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved". There's something heart wrenching about that final time Ennis drives away and Jack's left standing there, the look on his face. Then it fades to 1963 and the dozy embrace and then Ennis riding away back to the sheep, and the way that Jack's standing there watching him go. It cuts back to the present, and Jack's left there looking so lonely and desolate and small. It's as though he's finally realised, like the tagline says "there are places we can't return to", and it's as though, as Optom said earlier, "the last remnants of his dream,get blown away on the wind."


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2008, 08:25:25 pm »
The posts here are really great and really sum Jack up perfectly.

I have always wondered about what kind of conclusion Jack and Ennis came to after the last lake scene, and if it was the end of Jack's dreams.

The emotional outburst from Ennis, was the first time he had ever let his true feelings and insecurities out, he was telling Jack, in a round about way, that "its because of you, Jack, I'm this way"......he was finally telling him that he loved him (in a round about way), telling him that its because of what there is between the two of them, that has controlled his whole life.

I have always thought, that instead of being the end of Jack's dreams, it would have been some reassurance that Ennis felt exactly the same way about him as he did....

We don't know what happened between the two of them, after the grasping clutch on the ground, or what was said in reply to what Ennis said, but the one consolation we do have, is that Jack did not die wondering.......he did know how Ennis felt.



I always thought they must have made up.,at least superficially.Ennis has  sent a card confirming the next meet.That terrible deceased card.If they had not reconciled,he surely would not be seeking confirmation of the next meet.It is also interesting that it is the Ennis sending the card,
Like you I  feel that by then Jack has realised that Ennis loves him.The only problem I have is why then is he talking to OMT about another chap.Has that really happened or is OMT jut being cruel.I think the problem is Jack may know Ennis loves him.The downside is he also knows it will never be in the way he wants.Certainly not the sweet life he dreams of.He wants Ennis fulltime.
Or can it be completely turned on its head.Has Ennis sent a card confirming the Nov. meet,because for the first time Jack has not contacted him.If that is the case,and I hate to think of it.Then could be Jack has given up,OMT was speaking the truth and maybe Jack never knew he was loved.Is that why Ennis says,Jack I swear,you might not have known it,but I did love you.
I hate that scenario so I push it to the back of my mind.I go with they have made up at the last meet,Ennis sends the card, more as sorry can't get away sooner than Nov.
I am so undecided on this one.The only thing I am sure of is that Jack gives up on the "sweet life" at the last meeting.Whether he would have lived with someone else and continued to slip away to meet Ennis,or continued just a it had been for 20 years I do not know.He does say he can't get by on a couple of high altitude fucks a year.
He needs a permanant relationhip.I just can't imagine him giving up seeing Ennis completely.What a conundrum.I hope he knew he was loved,even if he had given up on his dreams.

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2008, 08:45:10 pm »
I hope he knew he was loved,even if he had given up on his dreams.

I think we all share that sentiment.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline malina

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2008, 03:03:53 am »
What a profound question - as are range of responses. For me, switching the focus from 'what makes Ennis tick' to why Jack is the way he is is part of the evolution of insights about BBM. We aren't given as much information about Jack, it seems at first, although maybe, in fact, we are given plenty..

I'm just remembering that when I first watched BBM with a friend of mine, she was very adamant that she didn't want to "be a Jack". She was involved with someone she saw as an 'Ennis', and what the film crystalized for her was that she did not want to play the Jack role. She didn't want to be the long suffering, patient one, putting up with constant avoidance and disappointment, never pushing too hard.

I understood what she meant, but I didn't like hearing her say it, because I think I preferred to idealize Jack. I think the way that Jack just kept loving Ennis, and trying to give him what he needed, even when it hurt him... when it kept hurting him, constantly.. is both beautiful and necessary to Ennis's development. Jack was Ennis's 'ministering angel'. His love had a sacrificial quality to it. And BBM is essentially Ennis's story, and for that story to unfold as it does it is necessary for there to be a Jack, and for Jack to act as he did.

But how do we reconcile that with a human Jack who.. well, maybe, held on too long, and neglected himself and his own needs? I think Jack is guilty of that... he cut himself off from part of what he needed, and maybe even denied the need itself, in order to be with Ennis. He forced himself to be satisfied with whatever little bits of life Ennis could share with him. And when dissatisfaction drove him to find consolation in other things and people, I think he ... well, I think he did it quickly and with his eyes closed, without acknowledging to himself what his life with Ennis was costing him, until that last camping trip when the shock of Ennis's cancellation of August forced the admission out of him in the form of anger.

Who acts like that? Maybe someone who doesn't have the self-esteem or the faith to try and find in this world what he really needs, or who, as someone has already said, has a problem with reality?

I don't know... but a long time ago, on IMDB, I posted something about Brokeback Mountain being a 'domaine' for Ennis – a 'domaine' in the Arthurian legend sense, a place removed from everyday reality, somewhere idealized, and somewhere that, having been there once, you keep trying to get back to. And someone posted in response to that idea – "Ennis' domaine was Brokeback.. Jack's domaine was Ennis". And, of course, wanting to idealize Jack, I didn't much like that idea either. It made Jack sound too screwed up, and I wanted him to be rational and right.

Could it be that love always has a f-ed up element to it? About 5 years ago on Valentine's Day I wanted to figure out the answer to that for once and for all, and I engaged the help of another friend of mine who is a therapist, and we had coffee and cake and discussed the issue. Why is it that love... the great loves we admire in literature, for example... always seems to lead people to act in ways that are not.. well, not really rational, or healthy-seeming? I don't think we ever resolved the question.

I read a poem, somewhere online, last year, and now I can't find it, but it said something to the effect of: "Do not give your heart to anyone who does not have the courage to cut pieces of their own soul to make a cloak to shelter you". That's pure Jack, to me. And yet.. well, the cutting pieces of your own soul does not really sound very healthy, does it?

Oh, I don't know. I guess what I really think is that Jack, having found companionship and love with Ennis, having found and recognized a person with whom he 'clicked' and matched, was afraid of never having that feeling again, if he let go of Ennis. I think he was afraid of his life feeling unreal and unconnected, to such a degree that he kind of manifested that very thing... a life that could never really come together for him, a life in which there was no true stable center, where even in death he couldn't be in one place.

But I think to act in any other way would have cost him the experience of loving so deeply and for so long. In the end I still think Jack WAS right..

ramble ramble and a bit OT... sorry!

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2008, 04:54:29 pm »
I think I preferred to idealize Jack. I think the way that Jack just kept loving Ennis, and trying to give him what he needed, even when it hurt him... when it kept hurting him, constantly.. is both beautiful and necessary to Ennis's development. Jack was Ennis's 'ministering angel'. His love had a sacrificial quality to it. And BBM is essentially Ennis's story, and for that story to unfold as it does it is necessary for there to be a Jack, and for Jack to act as he did.

That's a very valid point, and I agree, BBM is Ennis's story, right from the start of the SS and the "panel of the dream" image. I agree too about idealizing Jack. We've all said that part of the lure of BBM and part of it's appeal is that the characters are real, complete with human flaws and weaknesses, not stereotypical love-story heroes. It is very easy though to idealize Jack and to only see his devotion to Ennis and "forget" in a way the reality of what his life must have been like forever waiting for Ennis and dreaming of the "sweet life".

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But how do we reconcile that with a human Jack who.. well, maybe, held on too long, and neglected himself and his own needs? I think Jack is guilty of that... he cut himself off from part of what he needed, and maybe even denied the need itself, in order to be with Ennis. He forced himself to be satisfied with whatever little bits of life Ennis could share with him. And when dissatisfaction drove him to find consolation in other things and people, I think he ... well, I think he did it quickly and with his eyes closed, without acknowledging to himself what his life with Ennis was costing him, until that last camping trip when the shock of Ennis's cancellation of August forced the admission out of him in the form of anger.

Who acts like that? Maybe someone who doesn't have the self-esteem or the faith to try and find in this world what he really needs, or who, as someone has already said, has a problem with reality?

Again, an interesting point. I guess he was so "blinkered" in his devotion to Ennis that he never even saw, or admitted to himself, that there might be  other ways or other people he could find happiness with. For all his clowning around in the early days and his talking and laughing, and outwardly optimistic outlook, throughout the story he's really a tragic figure, from the start when he's "crazy to be anywhere but Lightning Flat" glancing at Ennis outside Aguirre's office as he shaves, to the end of the film where after their final meeting he's standing forlorn watching Ennis drive away. 

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Oh, I don't know. I guess what I really think is that Jack, having found companionship and love with Ennis, having found and recognized a person with whom he 'clicked' and matched, was afraid of never having that feeling again, if he let go of Ennis. I think he was afraid of his life feeling unreal and unconnected, to such a degree that he kind of manifested that very thing... a life that could never really come together for him, a life in which there was no true stable center, where even in death he couldn't be in one place.

I think his only true stable centre was Ennis, but even that centre wasn't really stable because Ennis never could, or would commit. At their last meeting where Jack says "so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that", the same is true of Ennis. Jack's whole life is built on Ennis, and just like they can never go back to their idyllic life on the mountain, Jack can never get back the carefree Ennis he had on the mountain. As you say, it's interesting to note that even in death he couldn't be in one place, and he couldn't be the place he really wanted to be.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

retropian

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2008, 04:25:57 am »
Hi Malina! Its great to see you here. another great post. I think Love is irrational and one can't judge what oneself or anyone else does for it, or because of it. It is a force of nature after all, and unstopable, irresistible. Jack is what he is, and did what he did, right or wrong. I think it's good to accept his and Ennis's foibles, and our own as well.
Ian

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 09:21:25 pm »

I'm sorry I never posted here when this TOTW was new.  I love this topic.  And, it certainly is very complex and as someone said in an earlier post here... profound.

So many of the posts here are great!

I agree with what many people have said about Ennis being very tightly bound to some of Jack's issues and hang ups.  And, absolutely it's important that Jack is the optimist.  And really doesn't seem to be so driven by fear (at all) as Ennis.

I think the fact that he's a bull rider is very important to the notion that Jack very easily throws off fear and will go ahead and do something that he loves even if he knows that it's dangerous.  He knows that he could get killed riding a bull, but he loves it and pursues it (even if he isn't very good at it always).  And, he has an awareness that there are dangers in the world for gay men (how could he not... dealing with Ennis all the time), but he loves Ennis and is willing to risk it.

Anyway, one of the main things I wanted to post here was something I was lying awake thinking about last night in bed.  I was thinking about the end segments of BBM and how strong, powerful and important the metaphor of the closet is in contexts involving both Jack and Ennis almost in equal measure. The fact that the closet is an almost over-determined symbol for gay people concealing their identities or hiding what's important to them goes without saying.  Clearly at the very end we know that Ennis is keeping his most precious things in his closet (his daughter's sweater and his shrine to Jack).  And, earlier the profound secret that Jack kept even from Ennis was concealed in his childhood closet (and I guess on a broad level we could say that his secret was how long he was deeply in love with Ennis... and how long he was completely and consciously aware that what he felt was love and was profound enough to save and preserve carefully).  Somehow the fact that we know both Ennis and Jack are/were tied to their closets in super important ways creates an equivalence between them.  It is true that Jack's daily life was dominated by activities and people that had very little to do with his true desires and identity.  So, in "faking" his life in Childress Jack is conceding that he's willing to hide or even fells the need to hide his identity like Ennis does. 

Of course the argument can also be made that Jack only "fakes" his life in Childress in response to the constraints placed on their relationship by Ennis.  The ultimate consequence of his short leash.

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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 10/08: Jack's hang-ups - or lack thereof
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2008, 12:30:53 pm »
I think the fact that he's a bull rider is very important to the notion that Jack very easily throws off fear and will go ahead and do something that he loves even if he knows that it's dangerous.  He knows that he could get killed riding a bull, but he loves it and pursues it (even if he isn't very good at it always).  And, he has an awareness that there are dangers in the world for gay men (how could he not... dealing with Ennis all the time), but he loves Ennis and is willing to risk it.

That's a very good point! I just love the way that just when you think that Annie can't have hidden away any more metaphors and subtle mirrors of the story and events, someone goes and spots another one! I really do feel that for all it's brevity, Brokeback should be up there with the classics as an example of how to do literature really well.

Anyway, one of the main things I wanted to post here was something I was lying awake thinking about last night in bed.  I was thinking about the end segments of BBM and how strong, powerful and important the metaphor of the closet is in contexts involving both Jack and Ennis almost in equal measure. The fact that the closet is an almost over-determined symbol for gay people concealing their identities or hiding what's important to them goes without saying.  Clearly at the very end we know that Ennis is keeping his most precious things in his closet (his daughter's sweater and his shrine to Jack).  And, earlier the profound secret that Jack kept even from Ennis was concealed in his childhood closet (and I guess on a broad level we could say that his secret was how long he was deeply in love with Ennis... and how long he was completely and consciously aware that what he felt was love and was profound enough to save and preserve carefully).  Somehow the fact that we know both Ennis and Jack are/were tied to their closets in super important ways creates an equivalence between them.  It is true that Jack's daily life was dominated by activities and people that had very little to do with his true desires and identity.  So, in "faking" his life in Childress Jack is conceding that he's willing to hide or even fells the need to hide his identity like Ennis does. 

Of course the argument can also be made that Jack only "fakes" his life in Childress in response to the constraints placed on their relationship by Ennis.  The ultimate consequence of his short leash.

Again, so true. I'd picked up on Ennis's closet, but strangely never considered Jack's hiding place for the shirts, except to note that Jack's mother seemed to know of the whereabouts of the shirts (really must pay more attention!  :laugh:).

Of course the argument can also be made that Jack only "fakes" his life in Childress in response to the constraints placed on their relationship by Ennis.  The ultimate consequence of his short leash.

I agree. I think if Ennis had agreed to the "sweet life" back at the 4 year reunion, Jack would have given up everything in Childress to be with him.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."