the roles of children

[forsythia12]

should your children's needs have first priority when it comes to family matters, marriage, or dating relationships?  this question comes with the idea that many blended families suffer a great deal of conflict when it comes to the importance of the role of children.  i know many couples that broke up simply because one partner felt that the other's children came first in all matters. 
i think of jack visiting ennis when he had the girls, and how they had discussed many times about their kids.  jack seemed willing to leave, yet ennis continually made statements that implied that he wouldn't leave his family and that they came first.
i also know of married couples that have said that their spouse comes first and formost because that marriage is the foundation in which children are rooted in.
is there a 'priority' pyramid in your mind of what and who comes first in your family life? 
how about what you sacrafice for your kids?  is it right to persue things in your life, despite potential conflict with your kids? 

have you seen someone live their life fully for the benefit of their kids, and go without personal pleasure or a personal life?
do children this day in age get away with too much because they have 'run of the household'?

[optom3]

Wow !!!! This is such a loaded issue that I do not think there is any one common answer.I always used to believe that children had to come first,and with that in mind I gave up the single most important relationship I have ever had.However it is just not that simple.I have found recently that I have become incredibly resentful of my oldest son.It was with him in mind that I did an Ennis!!!!! As he is now behaving atrociously to me in particular,I find myself,having to bite my tongue to avoid saying something I would regret.
I am part of a blended family,in that my oldest son is to my ex husband and the 2 younger kids are with my current husband.Even things like discipline take on a nightmare quality.I always thought my husband was being too hard on the oldest.I used to question how he could love him in the same way as he loved his own 2 kids.In turn I was probably too soft with the oldest,trying to over compensate.It really is a mine field.
Things like last names,my oldest has his blood fathers last name,we all have my husbands.He hates the fact that his paport is different name to ours,and my ex. refuses to let him change it.As far a school and friends go he has the same name,but not on any legal documents.That sort of thing matters to a kid.They want to belong and not feel different.
In the early days when we were all in England,I used to worry all the time that if we were too hard on him,he would turn to his blood father and I would lose him.Kids are very good at that sort of manipulation.Too late I realised what he was doing.Now with him beig so terrible I wish he had gone to his blood father.My life would have been so much easier.Instead of which it cost us roughly $45,000 in court fees etc when at age 6 he decided he no longer wanted to see his blood father at all.There are days now when I just wish,I had kept the money and let his blood father take him.Then of course mothers guilt creeps in and I feel dreadful for having those thoughts.
It does not help that my other 2 kids are angels compared to him.Wel behaved,both at gifted school,talented athletes.Just everything he is not.So I keep wondering what my husband really feels,but I dare not ask him!!!!
I love my kids but I dont like one of them very much at the moment.Had I followed my heart,I would not have had the other 2,but I guess the situation with my oldest would have been no different.Except maybe I would have been happier and better able to deal with him.Who knows.
Like I say I do not think there is a simple solution,when 2 families come together,Even in a "normal " family discipline often poses a problem,when it is 2 ready made families comming together it just magnifies the problem.It is like treading on egg shells all the time and resentment builds on a dailt basis.
If I could rewind the clock,I would have gone with my heart,no doubt about it.That would have at lest eliminated one of my resentments,Would my older child have been any different,I doubt it.He would have had a different step father,but I would have been happier.
Also finally waht happens when the kids have all gone.What am I left with then? The man who I am with is not the love of my life and never can be.So I dread that day,
I know there would have been different problems as my lover got so tired of waiting fo me,he married and had 2 kids of his own.So how would he have coped living with mine,yet maybe only seeing his at the weekends.That would have posed yet another problem.But I do keep comming back to the fact that I would have been happier.So would that not long term have been better for all the kids concerned.Who knows,I think maybe it would.An unhappy mum surely does not make for happy kids.
At the time I thought I was being very unselfish,now I am no longer sure.As said at the start there really is no one common solution.If we are trying to do the right thing,we generaly put the kids first.If that is at the expense of our happiness it can backfire later on big style.Particularly when you look to the future and a life without the one you love,and also wit the kids having flown the nest.
Maybe other people have stronger natures than me.Personally at the moment,I resent every day what I gave up for a son,who only this week called me a whore,and pretended to whistle for me as if I was toos on a sreet corner.
The other side of the coin is,could it be my unhapiness which he is picking up on,and so resulting in the atrocious behavior.Who knows.I do know that no one is very happy at the moment.Least of all me,yet I was soooo convinced all those years that I was doing the right thing.Maybe the really strong people are those who put themselves first.It must take a hell of a lot of guts.Particularly when you consider how society ostracises mothers who put themselves before their kids.
So who is braver,those who follow their hearts,or those who put kids first but then harbour ever growing resentments.I do not know.But I do know having lived it,that it is a major major mine field !!!!!
.

[forsythia12]

thanks fiona.  your story is very deep, and i empathize with your situation wholeheartedly.

my husband and i are fairly strict on our kids.  we put eachother first in many ways, but not to neglect our kids, but to show them that we are important to eachother and that they don't run the household.  i don't let them interrupt when him and i are talking, and we have times when we watch t.v. or have a glass of wine together and the kids have to leave us be because "mom and dad are having alone time"....which we believe is important for them to know. 
i grew up in a blended family.  there were no step siblings, but i had a stepfather, and he wasn't afraid to dicipline me, which i appreciated later in life.  my mom was very important to him, and he always stepped in when i didn't treat her right.  i think that's important.

my husband, being a cop, has seen so many parents cater to their children, or try to be their kids' best-friend instead of a parent.  kids run rampant now.  he sees it all the time and asks "where's the dicipline?".
seems a lot of kids have a deep disrespect for authority these days.  they have no reverence for their teachers, parents, police, or any kind of authority figure, and society has exploded with all kinds of new ways to raise kids that focus on "children's rights".   a teacher can not touch a child at all anymore, even if faced with a threat, yet back in the day of corpral punishment, it was a given that teachers had that right. (i'm not trying to promote corpal punishment here). however,  many teachers and other authority figures  abused it, but what is the correlation between this and the increase in crime that goes on with kids?  children want to kill their teachers, kill eachother, steal, lie, abuse their parents, etc....and if someone tries to stop them they threaten to phone children'ts services.  i remember being a kid, and if i skipped school, all kinds of people would ask me why i'm not in school.  the public bus driver, store owners, mail-man, etc..... it was like everyone was looking out for kids, and in some form, correcting their behavior.  now, i couldn't imagine a mailman stopping a teenager and asking why he's not in school.

what do you think?

[injest]

I think children DO have rights. So I wouldn't put the words in quotes. Children are people too and should not be abused..

there is an organization here in Texas that are calling for the repeal of child abuse laws...saying their children belong to them and they should be allowed to do as they please with them. I know from first hand experience that it is NOT easy to get a child away from an abusive parent so the fear of that is WAY WAY over rated....look at the news anyday...kids being killed by their caretakers, kids being used in sex clubs...Here in East Texas a sex club for child molesters operated next door to the town' newspaper offices for years...the police were informed TWO years ago and did nothing until finally a foster mother went to state officials.

I myself turned in a mother that was abusing her child...the house was so infested with roaches that the little one had no eyelashes or hair because the roaches had eaten them all off it. The authorities wouldn't even go and investigate it. The girls that went to school had lice for over five years (may STILL have it as far as I know) Horrible living conditions...

If someone called in a complaint about me I have no problem with them investigating me...I would welcome it, I have nothing to hide and their diligence may rescue another child from horrors we can't imagine.

You have to start early and build a relationship with your child. If your child would EVER threaten to call the authorities on you then there is a major problem in your family (IMO) and you as the adult need to figure out a way to fix it. MY response if my child ever threatened would be to say "here let me dial the number for you" ... taking the power away from him...

[optom3]

I firmly believe that kids have too much power and too little discipline these days.They are not afraid of any authority figures,the reason being,that on the whole most of those in authority have little effective power any more.My ex husband who has now been "dry"for several years and lectures in psychology,back in England,recently told me that there is now a whole generation of kids who are literally feral.They roam the streets like packs of wolves,afraid of nothing.
He cannot discipline any of the kids he teaches,all he can do is suspend them,to go back to roaming the streets again!!!!! He really believes that society is on the verge of collapse.And we are talking about an ex alcoholic here,with pretty liberal views.The last time I disciplined my oldest son and he threatened to report me,I literally gave him the phone.He dialled 911 ,the police  actually came round,and thank goodness,read him the riot act.They informed him it was my right as an adult to expect a level of behaviour from him,and they fully supported me.They also informed him that if he wasted their time again,he would be in serious trouble.
I was so grateful to them.For once an authority figure who had common sense.I wish more were like them.I have never hit my kids,but I do impose very strict sanctions for bad behaviour.I learned the hard way,you can't be friends with your kids.They do not even particularly want it.They have friends,they need parents,because along with the discipline which they may not like,they need to feel protected and safe which they do want.
We have the highest rate of juvenile crime ever,so all this softly,softly approach is not working.I too do not allow my kids to interupt if I am on the phone,If they do,then I do the same to them.
I have started to treat like with like.If they embarass me then I do likewise.Last time my oldest was exceptionally rude both to and about me in front of his friends.I bided my time,then surprised him in the mall,dressed like an escapee from the local asylum,and pestering him.He has not tried to embarass me since.I expect and try to instill in all of them do as you would be done by.I know I may sound harsh,but I did try the "friend" thing and it was an unmitigated disaster.
Equally if they behave in a mature fashion,there is no topic which is off limits.I will discuss anything with them.But they have to demonstarte the maturity first.We give them so much of our time,that we have told them we now expect some time of our own in return.It is a quid pro quo.If you want me to be an unpaid taxi service,which I am quite willing to be,you have to allowme some "me" time.
I do not get it right all the time,but I do keep trying.I am learning all the time.I think if you reach the stage where you believe you know it all,then you are on a very slippery slope.I talk all the time to friends about what they do in given situations,Sometimes I try out their suggestions,sometimes not.However I always leave myself open to ideas.I had to accept,some harsh criticism from one friend over being too soft with my oldest son.Giving him too many excuses for his behaviour,always putting it down to his illness,instead of just being badly behaved.
It hurt at the time,but she was right.I had to swallow my pride,accept what she said,and look to changing my own behaviour.But as said being a parnt is a continual learning curve,sometimes you get it right,sometimes very wrong,but you have to keep trying.

[forsythia12]

I think children DO have rights. So I wouldn't put the words in quotes. Children are people too and should not be abused..

there is an organization here in Texas that are calling for the repeal of child abuse laws...saying their children belong to them and they should be allowed to do as they please with them. I know from first hand experience that it is NOT easy to get a child away from an abusive parent so the fear of that is WAY WAY over rated....look at the news anyday...kids being killed by their caretakers, kids being used in sex clubs...Here in East Texas a sex club for child molesters operated next door to the town' newspaper offices for years...the police were informed TWO years ago and did nothing until finally a foster mother went to state officials.

I myself turned in a mother that was abusing her child...the house was so infested with roaches that the little one had no eyelashes or hair because the roaches had eaten them all off it. The authorities wouldn't even go and investigate it. The girls that went to school had lice for over five years (may STILL have it as far as I know) Horrible living conditions...

If someone called in a complaint about me I have no problem with them investigating me...I would welcome it, I have nothing to hide and their diligence may rescue another child from horrors we can't imagine.

You have to start early and build a relationship with your child. If your child would EVER threaten to call the authorities on you then there is a major problem in your family (IMO) and you as the adult need to figure out a way to fix it. MY response if my child ever threatened would be to say "here let me dial the number for you" ... taking the power away from him...

i don't think i said that children don't have rights, i was trying to say that they are blasting people with their rights, and in turn, disrespect authority because they think they can get away with anything.  i don't abuse my children, and my kids never threatened to phone any such number.
i was also referring to my husband's line of work, in which he has seen, more than not, the absolute lack of dicipline from parents.  also, he gets phone calls of kids all the time claiming they're abused because they're stepdad 'grounded' them.  yes, of course there are millions of cases of abuse.  i don't think i said anything that would suggest that i approve or condone such behavior.  children do have rights, just as everyone, but there are also cases when  kids misuse those rights to override any form of dicipline; thus failiing to respect people, abide authority, abide the law, and obey one's parents.
 yes, power can also be abused, i know, but i was talking about children in normal or safe conditions, in which they manipulate their 'rights'. i also said, i wasn't trying to promote corpral punishment here, but rather point out how different it is today when it comes to 'legal' dicipline, not blatant abuse.

[forsythia12]

I firmly believe that kids have too much power and too little discipline these days.They are not afraid of any authority figures,the reason being,that on the whole most of those in authority have little effective power any more.My ex husband who has now been "dry"for several years and lectures in psychology,back in England,recently told me that there is now a whole generation of kids who are literally feral.They roam the streets like packs of wolves,afraid of nothing.
He cannot discipline any of the kids he teaches,all he can do is suspend them,to go back to roaming the streets again!!!!! He really believes that society is on the verge of collapse.And we are talking about an ex alcoholic here,with pretty liberal views.The last time I disciplined my oldest son and he threatened to report me,I literally gave him the phone.He dialled 911 ,the police  actually came round,and thank goodness,read him the riot act.They informed him it was my right as an adult to expect a level of behaviour from him,and they fully supported me.They also informed him that if he wasted their time again,he would be in serious trouble.
I was so grateful to them.For once an authority figure who had common sense.I wish more were like them.I have never hit my kids,but I do impose very strict sanctions for bad behaviour.I learned the hard way,you can't be friends with your kids.They do not even particularly want it.They have friends,they need parents,because along with the discipline which they may not like,they need to feel protected and safe which they do want.
We have the highest rate of juvenile crime ever,so all this softly,softly approach is not working.I too do not allow my kids to interupt if I am on the phone,If they do,then I do the same to them.
I have started to treat like with like.If they embarass me then I do likewise.Last time my oldest was exceptionally rude both to and about me in front of his friends.I bided my time,then surprised him in the mall,dressed like an escapee from the local asylum,and pestering him.He has not tried to embarass me since.I expect and try to instill in all of them do as you would be done by.I know I may sound harsh,but I did try the "friend" thing and it was an unmitigated disaster.
Equally if they behave in a mature fashion,there is no topic which is off limits.I will discuss anything with them.But they have to demonstarte the maturity first.We give them so much of our time,that we have told them we now expect some time of our own in return.It is a quid pro quo.If you want me to be an unpaid taxi service,which I am quite willing to be,you have to allowme some "me" time.
I do not get it right all the time,but I do keep trying.I am learning all the time.I think if you reach the stage where you believe you know it all,then you are on a very slippery slope.I talk all the time to friends about what they do in given situations,Sometimes I try out their suggestions,sometimes not.However I always leave myself open to ideas.I had to accept,some harsh criticism from one friend over being too soft with my oldest son.Giving him too many excuses for his behaviour,always putting it down to his illness,instead of just being badly behaved.
It hurt at the time,but she was right.I had to swallow my pride,accept what she said,and look to changing my own behaviour.But as said being a parnt is a continual learning curve,sometimes you get it right,sometimes very wrong,but you have to keep trying.

i agree with what you say fiona.  thanks for your input.
yes, teachers have their hands tied when it comes to dicipline too.  again, i'm not talking about bringing back the wooden stick, but they are treated like crap these days , threatened, falsley accused, abused, etc.....and the teacher's rarely have an effect on kids anymore.  many parents don't even care if their kids are suspended now.  happens all the time.  kids get suspended, parents complain to the school board, kid is back in school like he didn't miss a beat. 
also, with parents being their kid's 'best friend' instead of a parent, here's something that happened last year.  a mom rented a bus for her kid's graduation, and had all his friends aboard drinking. the party moved to her/and her son's house where the drinking continued.  well, parents of the other kids were outraged when their teens came home completely wrecked, and sent the cops after this woman for providing minors with alcohol.  she fought the case, went to the news, and there was a huge public outcry that this woman did nothing wrong since it was at her house, under her supervision....which "was better then letting kids drink out in the streets".  my husband sees this all the time.  there is some 'party pits' way out in the middle of nowhere and crowds of kids sworm up there droves.  like 200 kids or more at these parties. anyways, the last time there was a party there, the kids set a huge fire, and the fire department came.  when they showed up, the crowd attacked the firetruck with rocks, bats, and huge sticks.  they broke all the windows, and eventually managed to overturn it onto it's side.  they attacked two firemen. now, if there is a party, police protocol is to block exits so they can arrest and charge people leaving the party.  they are not to go in to the scene of the party because it's too dangerous for them in numbers.  my husband caught two sets of parents on their way out after dropping their kid off.  he read them the riot act like you wouldn't believe, but to no avail.

[optom3]

Forsythia I am so in agreement with you.The very thing your husband experienced is what my oldest son did.Called 911 because my husband was grounding him,for smashing yet another computer.Fortunately as said the Police took our side,even saying they would have grounded him for longer.
Let me cite another example of kids freedom gone mad.My ex as mentioned teaches psychology to 16-18 year olds.A couple of weeks ago he was telling me about a kid who is constantly suspended.On this occasion he was in school and decided to throw a chair at my ex!!!!! in class !!!!!!!!
My ex was so incensed he picked up an apple from his desk and threw it at the kid.It missed him,but the mother lodged a complaint.My ex was disciplined,and formally reprimanded for it.
He has a large lump on his head where the chair caught him,what happened to the kid,nothing.The school wanted to suspend him again,but mother did not wants him at home.It interfered with her life too much.So school agreed to keep him.
The world has gone mad,completely and utterly bonkers.I used to see kids when I was an Optometrist,I was appalled when they could not read or even know their letters at 12.
I gave up mentioning to parents who just did not give a damn.They would just say Oh he's always been a bit slow.A bit slow,he's one step short of retarded!!!!!! But when parents do not care,what hope.The kids leave school with nothing and go to join their parents on benefits,Why work when the government will pay us to do nothing.
I just gave up in the end.Nothing would ever surprise me with some kids anymore.No discipline,no respect,don't care can do what I want attitude.Parents who do not care either.It used to make my blood boil. Then I just stopped caring.The only time I interfered was when the little brats were trying to destroy my equipment.I would give the mum some time to reprimand the kid.When invariably they did not,I just used to say,now I am sure mum does not want to pay $4000 for a new whatever.That normally worked.!!!!!
Sorry I am off on one of my biggest gripes with the world today,kids and parents who refuse to discipline,then stand back amazed when little Mary or Johnny is down an alley somewhere on crack and 6 months pregnant!!!!!!!! well Mary anyway.
You should have to pass some sort of fit for purpose exam before you are allowed to breed.And I am not sure if I am joking either.

[Artiste]

Wow, interesting posts!

[forsythia12]

here is a video of a very funny canadian comedian talking about how different cultures deal with their kids.  *(please note that he does make a comical reference about 'beatiing kids' , but it is meant as a joke, and not to be taken seriously, so please know that i am not condoning real abuse,  nor do i think this comedian is either)*
having said that, this video is very funny.