Texas Polygamy Sect

[injest]

**

[delalluvia]

Yes, I've been following this story.  It's a disgusting disgrace.  I can't remember the guy Nancy Grace interviewed, but he just told it like it is:

"Where are the [men] of the polygamous sect?  They're - scared.  They're cowards, hiding behind their women and their religion...."  He went on to say how this particular 'sect' is a basically a sex cult, made up by men, for men, to service their disgusting sexual practices.

He brought up the same thing you did Jess.  Had their multiple wives been adult consenting women, no one would have blinked an eye, but they never are because few adult women buy this sort of lifestyle.  These disgusting predators marry a certain type of women, then raise children to be the next crop of brides, taking the girls as brides when they're too young to know any better or realize they're supposed to have a choice.

Sick sick sick.    I hope they get the book thrown at them - the mothers too for allowing this to happen to their children without saying anything.

A 16 year old girl put these adult 'wives' to shame.

[David In Indy]

Yes, I've been following this story.  It's a disgusting disgrace.  I can't remember the guy Nancy Grace interviewed, but he just told it like it is:

"Where are the [men] of the polygamous sect?  They're - scared.  They're cowards, hiding behind their women and their religion...."  He went on to say how this particular 'sect' is a basically a sex cult, made up by men, for men, to service their disgusting sexual practices.

He brought up the same thing you did Jess.  Had their multiple wives been adult consenting women, no one would have blinked an eye, but they never are because few adult women buy this sort of lifestyle.  These disgusting predators marry a certain type of women, then raise children to be the next crop of brides, taking the girls as brides when they're too young to know any better or realize they're supposed to have a choice.

Sick sick sick.    I hope they get the book thrown at them - the mothers too for allowing this to happen to their children without saying anything.

A 16 year old girl put these adult 'wives' to shame.

They said on the news the police found beds used for SEX inside that church or temple. Unbelievable isn't it?

[brokeplex]

Where was CPS during all these years while this cult operated? Why did it take a complaint from a minor to bring this to the attention of the authorities?

I am pleased to see that the matter is being resolved, but puzzled that Texas tax dollars are being misused in support of a cult which frankly victimizes young women and men. The fact that the members were receiving state support should send up a red flag at CPS.

How are our tax dollars being utilized when CPS can't on its own initiative find and expose to the authorities a situation like this?

I would like to see a full investigation at the legislative level and out of the governor's office as to why tax dollars are being wasted on supporting bureaucrats in CPS in Austin who can't fathom a cult like this, sticking out like a sore thumb!

[brokeplex]

there was a big write up about it in the Dallas paper when it first moved out there. the sheriff said that it wasn't any of their business as long as the sect stayed to itself and didn't break any laws. (to me the first red flag should have been the locked gates and armed men protecting them...)

well said!

furthermore, this compound stuck out like a sore thumb on the prairie. you can see it for miles, everyone in the El Dorado area knew it was there, and surely the local county people knew that state funds were going into this cult.

weren't any inquiries made about the state of the children's schooling?

children can be homeschooled, I am ALL in favor of that, but I also understand the need for the local school district officials to make inquiries about the welfare of the children. people who own property in the area pay taxes into the local district, the district has an obligation to fulfill its state mandates, and one of those is inquiry into homeschooled children.

I'm just angry enough to make a little inquiry myself, since I get gouged yearly by that particular ISD for taxes.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The brief bit I saw of the women on TV this morning, I found them just plain creepy. Wearing their hair as in the 1940s, and one woman had on a dress that looked like a circa-1900 shirtwaist.

This keeping of children younger than, say, age 10, away from their mothers does trouble me, however. 

[delalluvia]

It was creepy.  The women denied they were brainwashed, but it was all too obvious that they are.

Yes, I noticed too that they wouldn't answer about underage children being married off.

Where are the great patriarchs of this sick fuck family?  Why aren't they being dragged kicking and screaming out from under their rocks to be grilled about their pedophilia and statutory rapes?

[brokeplex]

It was creepy.  The women denied they were brainwashed, but it was all too obvious that they are.

Yes, I noticed too that they wouldn't answer about underage children being married off.

Where are the great patriarchs of this sick fuck family?  Why aren't they being dragged kicking and screaming out from under their rocks to be grilled about their pedophilia and statutory rapes?

that is what has me puzzled? why didn't CPS and the local authorities drag the perps off? if the perps were removed, the victims could have been left in their in their homes and not dragged off to some holding camp! the whole episode make the local Schleicher Co authorities and CPS look like bunglers.

[delalluvia]

that is what has me puzzled? why didn't CPS and the local authorities drag the perps off? if the perps were removed, the victims could have been left in their in their homes and not dragged off to some holding camp! the whole episode make the local Schleicher Co authorities and CPS look like bunglers.

I'm not sure, but last I heard, they're still holed up 'somewhere' in the compound and the authorities are trying to keep the thing from turning into a standoff.  Or that's the impression I got.

[brokeplex]

I'm not sure, but last I heard, they're still holed up 'somewhere' in the compound and the authorities are trying to keep the thing from turning into a standoff.  Or that's the impression I got.

you have info that I didn't have. It may be wise to hold off, I still remember flaming Janet Reno and her rush into the Davidian compound back in 1993.

[Jeff Wrangler]

mothers get to stay with them if they are under 4 I believe.

I heard that, too. I'm just thinking back that if I had been forcibly kept from my mother when I was, say, 7 or 8, I would have been traumatized beyond belief.

or having members from other compounds come and spirit the children away. Which I believe is what happened to the girl that called for help. IF she isn't dead.

Or if she even existed in the first place. 

that is what has me puzzled? why didn't CPS and the local authorities drag the perps off? if the perps were removed, the victims could have been left in their in their homes and not dragged off to some holding camp! the whole episode make the local Schleicher Co authorities and CPS look like bunglers.

Three of the women and a lawyer were on Today this morning. The lawyer raised a point I found interesting. The authorities are treating the whole kit and kaboodle as one family, or so the lawyer says, instead of treating the individual families, well, individually. The women made me think of zombies.

I'm not sure, but last I heard, they're still holed up 'somewhere' in the compound and the authorities are trying to keep the thing from turning into a standoff.  Or that's the impression I got.

Seems to me if they're holed up somewhere, and the authorities aren't letting them in or out, then they've got a de facto standoff. Only a matter of time before the shooting starts.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

You know I heard on the news they were looking for Foster homes for those 401 children. I think if I had to place that many children I would be open to placing them in homes owned by other families besides the Fosters. How many Fosters can there be? And Just because they are Fosters they might not want any children.

[HerrKaiser]

I think there is no one who violently demands protection of children and other victims from crimes such as being accused here.

But, i am very concerned the actions of the Texas Rangers style assault team of CPS zealots has stretched far their authority and sorely abused the rights of many in this compound. It is llooking to me like an anti-church thing, at least in part.

With only an anonymous call (and the caller STILL not having come forth) and months of "undercover" work with only sketchy info, the charges remain largely without evidence substantial enough to support a 'real' case. The rounding up of the children and stealing them away from parents makes Guantanamo look like a cake walk. Yes, kidnapping kids and separating them from parents is torture. Nowhere in our legal justice system is it considered due process to encircle and arrest an entire population for suspected illegal behavior or one or a few. I feel like I'm watching nazis marching down the streets of San Angelo TX but not with swastikas and umpa bands, but with CPS badges.

[brokeplex]

I think there is no one who violently demands protection of children and other victims from crimes such as being accused here.

But, i am very concerned the actions of the Texas Rangers style assault team of CPS zealots has stretched far their authority and sorely abused the rights of many in this compound. It is llooking to me like an anti-church thing, at least in part.

With only an anonymous call (and the caller STILL not having come forth) and months of "undercover" work with only sketchy info, the charges remain largely without evidence substantial enough to support a 'real' case. The rounding up of the children and stealing them away from parents makes Guantanamo look like a cake walk. Yes, kidnapping kids and separating them from parents is torture. Nowhere in our legal justice system is it considered due process to encircle and arrest an entire population for suspected illegal behavior or one or a few. I feel like I'm watching nazis marching down the streets of San Angelo TX but not with swastikas and umpa bands, but with CPS badges.

I certainly agree that CPS and especially the local Schleicher county authorities messed this up from the gitgo. It seems that if there were solid evidence necessary to call out the Rangers, charges should have been filed and the accused perps should have been frogmarched out of the compound. I think that what we see is CPS grabbing some headlines without the local authorities doing the proper intelligence on the ground to make their actions meaningful.

I am inclined to believe that a polygamist sect that marries off women under 15 and ejects young boys from the compound at that age, needs some very close examination, and really shouldn't be protected under the "freedom of religion" clause in the US or the TX constitutions.

[delalluvia]

I certainly agree that CPS and especially the local Schleicher county authorities messed this up from the gitgo. It seems that if there were solid evidence necessary to call out the Rangers, charges should have been filed and the accused perps should have been frogmarched out of the compound. I think that what we see is CPS grabbing some headlines without the local authorities doing the proper intelligence on the ground to make their actions meaningful.

I am inclined to believe that a polygamist sect that marries off women under 15 and ejects young boys from the compound at that age, needs some very close examination, and really shouldn't be protected under the "freedom of religion" clause in the US or the TX constitutions.

Ditto.  There were reports of men patrolling the compound with guns also makes me very uneasy.  This kind of thing can lead to a Mt. Carmel or a Jonestown where people are no longer able to leave even if they wanted to without running the gauntlet of men with guns.  And if the women wanted to leave?  With kids in tow?  Does this sound like a risk they would be willing to take?

After all the killing was done at Mt. Carmel and Jonestown, people were aghast at how could something like this be allowed to happen?.  Because when people saw men patrolling compounds with guns, they did nothing from without or within.

What is also suspicious is the fact that when given the opportunity to defend their faith - the women ignored or refused to answer questions about the age at which they were married and the accusations of underaged girls being wed.

Seems like they're well aware they are breaking the law and have been told by their lawyer how to avoid incriminating themselves with public statements because they know they will also be charged.

No way freedom of religion should protect them from prosecution.

[LauraGigs]

I am inclined to believe that a polygamist sect that marries off women under 15 and ejects young boys from the compound at that age . . .

If a female is under 15, she's a girl.  (Wouldn't usually nit-pick, but in this case the semantics are important...)

Anyway, I don't believe the Texas legal system would be interfering here (evacuating on such a huge scale) without a pretty clear-cut case.  The details evidently haven't made it to the newswires yet, and shouldn't any time soon because of issues with protecting the identities of the minors involved. 

And at the core of the case is alleged child rape and sexual abuse (and in the case of the boys, abandonment) which I think would rank pretty high on the trauma scale.

And the state/local law enforcement has gotten this far in the process with no violence -- no one injured at all.  I'd say they're doing something right.

[HerrKaiser]

And the state/local law enforcement has gotten this far in the process with no violence -- no one injured at all.  I'd say they're doing something right.

"no one injured at all" yet you use the "trauma" scale to help justify these government actions? how about the trauma and injury being suffered by over 400 little kids who have been literally kidnapped from their parents? how about the trauma for those parents?

It will be interesting to see what the governement has cooked up to justify this assault on basic human rights. The wailing that has taken place for the lack of valid reasons to go to war in Iraq is leveraged against a series of UN resolutions and published intelligence from France, UK, Germany and Russia.

All the CPS in TX had was an anonymous call from someone who they can't even find. 

I wonder if Bush got an anonymous call from a cell phone in Bagdad (who was never found) that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was raping women and torturing citizens...if the war would have been more supported.

Surely, any crimes commited against the children or adults must be prosecuted, but the process that has taken place sends a chilling chiver up my spine. Take note:

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."

I fear that could one day be:

"...first they came for the religious compounds and I did not speak out..."

[brokeplex]

"no one injured at all" yet you use the "trauma" scale to help justify these government actions? how about the trauma and injury being suffered by over 400 little kids who have been literally kidnapped from their parents? how about the trauma for those parents?

It will be interesting to see what the governement has cooked up to justify this assault on basic human rights. The wailing that has taken place for the lack of valid reasons to go to war in Iraq is leveraged against a series of UN resolutions and published intelligence from France, UK, Germany and Russia.

All the CPS in TX had was an anonymous call from someone who they can't even find. 

I wonder if Bush got an anonymous call from a cell phone in Bagdad (who was never found) that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was raping women and torturing citizens...if the war would have been more supported.

Surely, any crimes commited against the children or adults must be prosecuted, but the process that has taken place sends a chilling chiver up my spine. Take note:

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."

I fear that could one day be:

"...first they came for the religious compounds and I did not speak out..."

Kaiser, in this case I'm not so sure this is an "assault on human rights". Incompetence on the part of the locals, most definitely, but when I consider what was apparently happening inside the cult's compound, I have to wonder just what took the local authorities so long to act.

It appears that the facts are:

1) underage girls were either brainwashed or coerced into marrying much older men,
2) underage boys were being expelled and abandoned as they entered mid puberty,
3) there was a rather large armed presence around the compound, suggesting an armed camp.

I recognize that the cult's male leadership and the cooperative mothers of the children should have their day in court, and I await their testimony as to why they created and allowed such a situation to develop.

I am also interested in why local Schleicher County authorities allowed this situation to continue as long as it did. That would mean hearings at the County commissioners court, maybe a complaint needs to be filed. Hmm?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I am also interested in why local Schleicher County authorities allowed this situation to continue as long as it did. That would mean hearings at the County commissioners court, maybe a complaint needs to be filed. Hmm?

I've been wondering that, too. From the looks of the place, those people have been there a good, long while.

[brokeplex]

I've been wondering that, too. From the looks of the place, those people have been there a good, long while.

you are exactly right, the compound is clearly visible in the El Dorado area, the people there knew of the activities of the cult, and yet no ISD officials ever checked into what was happening to the children. Under TX law, children can be home schooled, in fact given the public schools it is a good idea, but local ISD officials must inspect at regular intervals and test the students to make certain that their schooling meets state standards. There was ample reason for local officials to know the full extent of the activities of this cult long ago. That is what concerns me. How did the ISD, municipal and county officials drop the ball for so long?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think the people from the compound chose that area because it is a small town with a small police force. Part of it was (IMO) that the police were a bit intimidated...And I believe the police was hesitant to get involved too much because they knew people would criticize them no matter which way they went. They are damned either way.

You might be on to something there, Jess. I wonder what the population of El Dorado is compared to the (best estimate) population of the ranch? How big--or small--is the local law enforcement agency?

[HerrKaiser]

Kaiser, in this case I'm not so sure this is an "assault on human rights". Incompetence on the part of the locals, most definitely, but when I consider what was apparently happening inside the cult's compound, I have to wonder just what took the local authorities so long to act.

It appears that the facts are:

1) underage girls were either brainwashed or coerced into marrying much older men,
2) underage boys were being expelled and abandoned as they entered mid puberty,
3) there was a rather large armed presence around the compound, suggesting an armed camp.

I recognize that the cult's male leadership and the cooperative mothers of the children should have their day in court, and I await their testimony as to why they created and allowed such a situation to develop.

I am also interested in why local Schleicher County authorities allowed this situation to continue as long as it did. That would mean hearings at the County commissioners court, maybe a complaint needs to be filed. Hmm?

We cannot dispute your good points here at the moment, but my point is that such suspicions do not elevate to a level where an ENTIRE communmity of children are, without any discussion, whisked away from parents. Similar damages to kids (brainwashing, abandoment, under nourishing, etc) are sadly somewhat commonplace in ghettos for example, but have you ever heard of the CPS rounding up those neighborhoods? This is a frightful moment.

Regarding the cops, that seems to underscore the bizarreness of the action. They could have been, over time, doing their due dilignece to ensure the compound was safe. But rather than the periodic checks that should have been done, they swooped in like the green berets.

This is like seizing one's bank assets and showing up at one's door and getting arrested for tax evasion. that simply does not happen prior to MANY notices and inspections prove fruitless. The drastic measures taken against the children seem more political than proper to me.

[Artiste]

How is it that many muslims have 4 wives, and some as here in Texas can not have more than one wife ??
..........

Don't get angry at me ! This is a good question !

[Artiste]

Same law for muslims having many wives... there ??

[Jeff Wrangler]

yes, if they married more than once they would be in trouble too.

Of course nobody, whether Muslim or Fundamentalist Mormon, can legally contract more than one marriage at a time here. No jurisdiction would issue a marriage license to someone who already had a license issued in that jurisdiction. If somebody contracted several marriages in several jurisdictions, he would be guilty of bigamy.

Actually, I wonder whether any of the guys on that ranch were legally married even to their first wife, or senior wife, or whatever they call them.

[Artiste]

You say:
   yes, if they married more than once they would be in trouble too.  
............

May I doubt they would be in trouble since most or many muslims have 4 wives same time... and,
because this Texas Polygamy lasted too long, the muslim ones would not be of interest to Texans nor the law makers or police enforcers !!

[Artiste]

It's very telling that polygamy exists in many parts of the USA, with many religions !! And no one does anything... to stop it !!

[Artiste]

If you get out of such cult group if that is possible safely, you would be damned to be in hell !!

So what is the difference with that and being as muslim which you can NOT get out of neither ??

[brokeplex]

We cannot dispute your good points here at the moment, but my point is that such suspicions do not elevate to a level where an ENTIRE communmity of children are, without any discussion, whisked away from parents. Similar damages to kids (brainwashing, abandoment, under nourishing, etc) are sadly somewhat commonplace in ghettos for example, but have you ever heard of the CPS rounding up those neighborhoods? This is a frightful moment.

Regarding the cops, that seems to underscore the bizarreness of the action. They could have been, over time, doing their due dilignece to ensure the compound was safe. But rather than the periodic checks that should have been done, they swooped in like the green berets.

This is like seizing one's bank assets and showing up at one's door and getting arrested for tax evasion. that simply does not happen prior to MANY notices and inspections prove fruitless. The drastic measures taken against the children seem more political than proper to me.

Your point is well taken and I also am very suspicious of precipitate governmental interventions, whether at the local, state, or most especially at the federal level. You are also correct in cautioning against a rush to judgement. However, the nature of this compound and the armed guards around the compound cause deep suspicion on my part that something is rotten therein.

Because the rights of the accused are safeguarded, the cult will have its day in court. And in the fullness of time we will see if the authorities overreacted.

lets bear in mind that:
 
1)  Amendment # 1 to the Constitution  "no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" , and Amendment # 4 " the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures."

is balanced with,

2) Amendment # 14  "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdictions the equal protection under the laws." 

[HerrKaiser]

I have a feeling that the notion of polygamy (whether mormon, amish, muslim or just for one's lifestyle choice) is going to become yet another legal/social issue that will ride on the tails of gay marriage. And, the polygamists will have a good point....if marriage can be changed to include male/male or female/female marriages, why not male/female/female?

[Artiste]

Most, isn't it, muslims, already have 4 wives, and no one goes against that, why ??

[Artiste]

If these men were muslims, they would just return to their own country of birth, and not be courts in Texas ?

But here men/chiildren born in the USA, are brought into courts in Texas !!

Is that fair ?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I have a feeling that the notion of polygamy (whether mormon, amish, muslim or just for one's lifestyle choice) is going to become yet another legal/social issue that will ride on the tails of gay marriage. And, the polygamists will have a good point....if marriage can be changed to include male/male or female/female marriages, why not male/female/female?

The Amish are not polygamous.

[brokeplex]

so if your religion is enslaving other people you are not protected.

that wasn't the point that I was making, not even a near miss!

freedom of religion is constitutionally protected, and the right to be free from unlawful search and seizure is constitutionally protected.

additionally the right to the pursuit of "life, liberty, etc" is also constitutionally protected. These parts of the fed constitution balance these rights and the roles of government in protecting them. The same applies to the state constitution.

CPS and other authorities were acting to protect the "life, liberty, etc" of the children of the compound when they made their "raid". this is constitutional, and not a violation of "freedom of religion" if they used proper search warrants and procedures, and had demonstrable just cause.

I chose these constitutionally pertinant quotations in my post as a response to Kaiser's largely correct opine that there are clear dangers to governmental overreaction. We still do not know the full story of El Dorado and the FLDS, but the entire cult appears very suspicious to me, and we will hopefully know soon the whole truth about the cult, and whether the authorities reacted in a correct manner or not, in the fullness of time. I hope!

[delalluvia]

I have a feeling that the notion of polygamy (whether mormon, amish, muslim or just for one's lifestyle choice) is going to become yet another legal/social issue that will ride on the tails of gay marriage. And, the polygamists will have a good point....if marriage can be changed to include male/male or female/female marriages, why not male/female/female?

Or why not female/male/male?

As the news reporter on Nancy Grace said, if it was a fringe polygamist cult - and the spouses involved were all adults and consenting no one would have blinked.  They would have been just another cult and let the Feds deal with their governmentally unapproved marriage arrangements.  But in almost every single case of a polygamist cult, the wife pool consists of both adult women and underaged girls.  THAT is what causes the problem.  These type cults are almost always men-controlled and designed to benefit their male founders.  I've yet to hear of a polygamist cult where the women are allowed as many husbands as they want.

[delalluvia]

Most, isn't it, muslims, already have 4 wives, and no one goes against that, why ??

Usually because they're not citizens of the country they're currently visiting/residing and they got married in the country of their birth where it is legal and recognized.

[Artiste]

Judge now ruled that the children stay in the care of Texas State for now, and ordered DNA test, since its hard to determine which child is of which parent !!

[Jeff Wrangler]

I've yet to hear of a polygamist cult where the women are allowed as many husbands as they want.

I would imagine women are smart enough not to want to have more than one husband at a time. ...

 

[Artiste]

Women who do not want to get more that one husband at a time, in some cults, get beaten or murdered !!

There are many cases like that !!

Hard to tell...

[delalluvia]

I would imagine women are smart enough not to want to have more than one husband at a time. ...

 

Thought that went without saying but I'd thought I'd be egalitarian about it 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I would imagine women are smart enough not to want to have more than one husband at a time. ...

 

Thought that went without saying but I'd thought I'd be egalitarian about it 

 

[Artiste]

I have known many gay men who had much troubles leaving such cults.

Some fear for their lives if they return, just for a visit to relatives who are still in those cults !!

Anyone else knows some ?

[brokeplex]

well Good Morning America is coming down on the side of the polygamists! Those poor mommas need to be with their children. (no mention of the fact that the mommas are not leaving the compound or renouncing their lifestyle...)

If the woman down the street was letting her husband 'marry' each of her daughters as they hit puberty would there be anyone on TV talking about how we should leave the kids in the home? Especially when the 'husband' is still living there?

nope.

Religion is a racket for people to hide their perversions behind.

sometimes that can be correct, but for a majority of the religious I think that is not correct. I am not a steady church goer, but I can see the good effect that church has for many.

I think of all the great charities established and run by religious organizations. The Mormons themselves have a wonderful idea for food pantries, they will offer their bounty to the needy, but the needy are then offered jobs that they must take in order to continue to receive charity. I think that this is a great idea, giving somebody something for nothing teaches them nothing. But teaching someone job related skills goes a long way towards solving their fundamental  problems which got them into a charity situation in the first place.

[delalluvia]

sometimes that can be correct, but for a majority of the religious I think that is not correct. I am not a steady church goer, but I can see the good effect that church has for many.

I think of all the great charities established and run by religious organizations. The Mormons themselves have a wonderful idea for food pantries, they will offer their bounty to the needy, but the needy are then offered jobs that they must take in order to continue to receive charity. I think that this is a great idea, giving somebody something for nothing teaches them nothing. But teaching someone job related skills goes a long way towards solving their fundamental  problems which got them into a charity situation in the first place.

True, but secular charities can do the same without the religious overtones.

[Artiste]

A lot can be said.

It remains that such things do happen.

It is also a fact that muslims can have four wives same time legally !!

Therefore, either in the is islamic worlds or in ours or in others, why some or many men want  more than one wife at a time ?


This puzzles me.

May I ask ?

Hugs!

[Marge_Innavera]

As the news reporter on Nancy Grace said, if it was a fringe polygamist cult - and the spouses involved were all adults and consenting no one would have blinked.  They would have been just another cult and let the Feds deal with their governmentally unapproved marriage arrangements.

Apparently the whole issue is over underaged marriages rather than polygamy, and for good reasons.

Polygamy and bigamy are illegal; but the illegal action has to be some fraudulent effort to contract more than one legal marriage at once; i.e., getting a marriage license and going through a legal ceremony when you're already married, or claiming more than one spouse for an exemption on a tax return.  If the church had wedding ceremonies but each man contracted only one legal marriage there isn't much the legal system can do about it.

The women they're interviewing are (IMO) weird-looking but they're all adults, so the multiple marriages can't all be involving underaged girls.

Or why not female/male/male?

That's definitely a lot more fun.     And in a grossly overpopulated world, it make a hell of a lot more sense.

[Jeff Wrangler]

That's definitely a lot more fun.     And in a grossly overpopulated world, it make a hell of a lot more sense.

I repeat what I said a week ago: I would think women would be a lot smarter than to want to get stuck with more than one husband at a time. ... 

[brokeplex]

Apparently the whole issue is over underaged marriages rather than polygamy, and for good reasons.

Polygamy and bigamy are illegal; but the illegal action has to be some fraudulent effort to contract more than one legal marriage at once; i.e., getting a marriage license and going through a legal ceremony when you're already married, or claiming more than one spouse for an exemption on a tax return.  If the church had wedding ceremonies but each man contracted only one legal marriage there isn't much the legal system can do about it.

The women they're interviewing are (IMO) weird-looking but they're all adults, so the multiple marriages can't all be involving underaged girls.

That's definitely a lot more fun.     And in a grossly overpopulated world, it make a hell of a lot more sense.

in a grossly overpopulated world, man/man and woman/woman would make even MORE sense! 

[brokeplex]

Child Welfare Issues at Polygamy Compound

April 26, 2008 - by Dawn Friedman Pajamas Media

"By now you’ve heard about the Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas, the compound where girls as young as sixteen are forced to become “sister-wives” in polygamous marriages with much older men.

Alerted by an anonymous call from someone who claimed to be a 16-year old runaway from the sect (an off-shoot of the mainstream Mormon church known as the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints), child welfare and law enforcement officials raided the ranch and took a reported 437 children into custody. As it turns out, the caller was a fraud but her claims appeared to be true; young women were being married off according to the group’s beliefs. It’s clear that church members were breaking the law and had the state not intervened, more girls would have been sexually abused under the guise of religious doctrine.

Details are sketchy. The families are so complicated that it’s difficult to know who belongs to whom and how old were the young women who were married. The results of DNA testing — just completed — will help sort this out. But it’s hard to know how many young women are victims and how many are (according to the state of Texas)  legally free and clear to marry given that the age of consent in Texas is 16 (with parental approval and assuming that the young woman in question will be the only wife).

Another issue in doubt is whether or not the youngest children — those too young to be deemed of “marriageable age” as defined by the church — were in any immediate danger when Judge Barbara Walther originally ruled that they be removed from the care of their mothers. This included 77 toddlers and  still-nursing infants under two years old.

 Families won’t be allowed to contest the ruling. Instead of being judged on an individual basis — each parent considered separately from the rest of his or her community — the state is treating the sect as a whole. Kids are being removed on the basis of their cultural background, not because they are in immediate danger. (If you want to see the FLDS point of view on this, you can check out the  web site they’ve set up.)

It’s unclear whether or not infants under 12 months have been separated from their mothers. I have read reports that  adult women with children under a year will be allowed to stay with their children. Another report said that  mothers under 18 would be placed in foster care with their kids. It’s anybody’s guess what will happen to older infants (greater than a year) who are  still nursing.

These are children who have rarely (if ever) left the rarefied air of the compound without a parent. They have already been raised to be leery of the outside world. Raiding their homes to break up their families has probably not done anything to make them feel better about society outside the walls of the ranch. CPS will be alerting the foster homes about the kids’ special needs,  asking caregivers to stock up on fruits and vegetables and cut back on the television. Given the state of foster care, one has to wonder if that will really do all that much to combat the culture shock.

What about the men? Should they be kept out of the picture? I totally agree with that idea. Until the state figures out which men were breaking the law and were abusing the girls it makes sense to not allow the them unsupervised visits with the kids. But I can’t see where the children need immediate protection from their mothers and siblings. Wouldn’t it be easier to kick the men off the compound and maintain caseworkers on-site to keep an eye on things? Wouldn’t it make more sense to care for the children in their own environment but with some measure of supervision?

I’m sympathetic to what a sudden influx of more than 400 kids must do to an overburdened system but I’m more sympathetic to the children especially given that the kids shouldn’t have been removed in the first place, not without proof of immediate harm."

[brokeplex]

Gene Disorder Complicates Sect Custody Fight

www.npr.org

Weekend Edition Sunday, April 27, 2008 · Lawyers for the mothers of 462 children taken from a polygamist ranch in West Texas will ask a state appeals court for relief, but the process is slowed by problems in determining the children's parentage. Texas family law officials continue to investigate allegations of physical and sexual abuse. Wade Goodwyn and Liane Hansen discuss the legal proceedings.

Meanwhile, many of the children in the FLDS group suffer from fumarase deficiency, a genetic disease that causes acute retardation and physical deformation. The disease was spread through decades of inbreeding, according to John Dougherty, an investigative reporter who has written extensively about the polygamist sect.

[Artiste]

May we all pray for those in         fumarase deficiency        and all other children...
for better and better health and happiness !!



And hugs to all too!!

[Marge_Innavera]

that is why they keep having to have new wives....they grow up. So all those strange looking women were kids too when they were married. It is the reason why so many of these men married sisters....once the old one gets a few years on her they go out and get the new model. Brand loyalty, ya know.

Doesn't quite explain those bizarre hairdos, though.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Doesn't quite explain those bizarre hairdos, though.

Can anything possibly explain those bizarre hairdos? 

[brokeplex]

many of the cult victims suffered from genetically related fulmerase deficiency which lead to their mental retardation. what thoughts they had were probably easily drowned out by the cult leaders.

[delalluvia]

Decades of inbreeding?   

How long has this cult been around??!?!

[brokeplex]

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

The FLDS temple at the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas
 
Formation 1930
Purpose/focus Church
Headquarters Hildale, Utah
Membership 10,000
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church) is one of the largest Mormon fundamentalist denominations[1][2] and one of America's largest practitioners of plural marriage.[3] The FLDS Church emerged in the 1930s when its founding members left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The split occurred largely because of the LDS Church's renunciation of polygamy and its decision to excommunicate practitioners of plural marriage.

The FLDS Church is estimated to have 10,000 members residing in the sister cities of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona; Eldorado, Texas; Mancos, Colorado; Creston and Bountiful, British Columbia; and Pringle, South Dakota.[4]

Since its inception in the 1930s, FLDS Church headquarters have been in Hildale, Utah, which is a twin city with Colorado City, Arizona. However, news reports since 2004 have suggested a possible shift of the church's headquarters to Eldorado, Texas, where a temple has been built by FLDS Church members.[5] As of 2007, the church was being led by Warren Jeffs, who succeeded his father Rulon Jeffs in 2002. For nearly two years, Warren Jeffs had been wanted on sex-crimes charges. From May 2006, until his arrest in August 2006, he was on the FBI's Ten Most-Wanted List.[6] On September 25, 2007, Jeffs was found guilty of two counts of being an accomplice to rape[7][8] and was sentenced to ten years to life in prison.[9]

Warren Jeffs formally resigned as the president of the FLDS Church on November 20, 2007.[10] William E. Jessop, Jeffs' first counselor in the FLDS Church presidency, was named by Jeffs as his successor.[11] Some reports[11] have stated that Jeffs never was the leader of the FLDS.

[Brown Eyes]

The FLDS Church is estimated to have 10,000 members residing in the sister cities of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona; Eldorado, Texas; Mancos, Colorado; Creston and Bountiful, British Columbia; and Pringle, South Dakota.[4]

It really makes one worry about all these other locations and compounds.  I wonder if the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg?
 

[brokeplex]

It really makes one worry about all these other locations and compounds.  I wonder if the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg?
 

probably it is a much deeper problem that we know, what is really concerning me is the fact that this group of people are suffering from a genetic disease due to in breeding. a disease that results in mental retardation. no wonder the women acted like Stepford wives.

[Brown Eyes]

probably it is a much deeper problem that we know, what is really concerning me is the fact that this group of people are suffering from a genetic disease due to in breeding. a disease that results in mental retardation. no wonder the women acted like Stepford wives.

Sure enough.  I'm sure the inbreeding and the brainwashing are a powerful, powerful combo.   

[brokeplex]

well according to the leaders that disease is caused by something in the AIR...not inbreeding! 

did they opine as to what it is in the air causing this genetic disease?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I hear this morning that one of the girls has given birth. The state officials say she is 17. The cult men insist she is 18.

[Brown Eyes]

Sect's boys may have been abused too, agency says
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/30/polygamist.abuse/index.html

CNN) -- At least 41 children taken from a polygamist sect's Texas ranch may have had past broken bones, officials say, and investigators are looking into the possible sexual abuse of some of the sect's young boys.

1 of 2 "The investigation is still in its early phases, but we have gathered additional information that is cause for concern," the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said in a statement on its Web site.

The statement said the department is looking into the possibility that some of the young boys taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, had been sexually abused based on interviews with the children and journal entries found at the ranch.

The department did not provide additional information.

The statement did not provide details about the 41 children investigators believe may have had broken bones, saying it does "not have X-rays or complete medical information on many children so it is too early to draw any conclusions based on this information."

"But it is cause for concern and something we'll continue to examine," it said.

The department said it presented its findings to the Texas Senate Health and Human Services Committee on Wednesday.


Texas authorities and child welfare officials raided the ranch earlier this month after receiving calls alleging physical and sexual abuse of girls at the compound.

The state currently has custody of the more than 460 children and youths who were removed from the ranch, which is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

On Tuesday, a teenage girl from the ranch gave birth to a healthy boy, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the protective services department.


At the time of the raid, state officials said teenage girls were routinely forced into underage marriages and sex with men who were much older.

Texas law puts the general age of consent at 17. Marriage is permitted at 16 with permission from a parent, according to The Associated Press.

[LauraGigs]

FLDS Prophet's Nephew Testifies Against Polygamists
Former Sect Member Speaks Out Against Sexual Abuse Inside Compound

http://a.abcnews.com/GMA/story?id=4679825&page=1

[Artiste]

May all those young mothers and others have a HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY !!

[LauraGigs]

May all those young mothers and others have a HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY !!

For what it's worth . . . 

[HerrKaiser]

I think there is no one who violently demands protection of children and other victims from crimes such as being accused here.

But, i am very concerned the actions of the Texas Rangers style assault team of CPS zealots has stretched far their authority and sorely abused the rights of many in this compound. It is llooking to me like an anti-church thing, at least in part.

With only an anonymous call (and the caller STILL not having come forth) and months of "undercover" work with only sketchy info, the charges remain largely without evidence substantial enough to support a 'real' case. The rounding up of the children and stealing them away from parents makes Guantanamo look like a cake walk. Yes, kidnapping kids and separating them from parents is torture. Nowhere in our legal justice system is it considered due process to encircle and arrest an entire population for suspected illegal behavior or one or a few. I feel like I'm watching nazis marching down the streets of San Angelo TX but not with swastikas and umpa bands, but with CPS badges.

Over a month later, THANKFULLY a Texas court has seen this correctly, imo.

[Artiste]

It remains a difficult case which can change the laws in Texas, and maybe elsewhere in the USA ??

Now muslims who have legally at least 4 wives in their countries, could enter the USA, and still have 4 wives same time or even more ??

Au revoir,
hugs!