Author Topic: Ennis and Old Man Twist  (Read 27290 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Ennis and Old Man Twist
« on: May 22, 2006, 07:34:33 pm »
So, we've discussed both here and on the old board many amazing aspects of the interaction between Jack's Mom and Ennis.  I'd like to see more discussion about the interaction with the father.  This topic came up in another conversation and I thought it was worth a thread...

If Jack's dream had come true of Ennis coming up to Lightning Flat to live and help run the ranch... Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch?  The idea just makes me smile.  I think things would have been great with Mrs. Twist (a new mother-figure for Ennis the orphan).  But, the idea of Ennis and Mr. Twist clashing on a daily basis is just amazing. 

On a more serious note, in the book it's made pretty clear (and it's hinted in the film) that John Twist was pretty abusive to Jack.  How would Ennis have reacted to seeing Jack berated by his father?
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2006, 09:10:41 pm »
Cool idea for a thread Amanda.  You have to alter a few character traits to imagine it though.  Like we have to first accept that Ennis somehow gets over his homophobia enough to live with Jack, and then there's the issue of are they fully "out" or at least out to Alma and the kids, Lureen, etc?  Are we talking only just enough to live together?  Just for now I'll assume it does.

Ok, so Jack and Ennis build a cabin somewhere on the ranch on Lightning Flat.  But before any of this can happen, they arrive in Ennis' truck and trailer, they both live in Ennis' trailer while the cabin is being built.  Jack no longer has his truck because it was owned by Lureen and he already been run out by LD, so he has nothing.  This is in real danger of becoming fan fiction so I'll stop there and just leave it as read that there is a lot of detail that I could go into to set all this up, but I hope there is enough for my context.

Ok, back to Ennis and John and their first meeting - remember the original story meeting hasn't happened.  For a long time, Ennis stays in the trailer and Jack stays in his own room.  John doesn't talk to Ennis, in fact he makes sure he has some "other work" to do when Ennis, Jack, and Mrs. Twist eat breakfast and supper.  Now I could imagine that this could go on for months or years since the characters were all capable of being unyieldingly stubborn.

There needs to be a catalyst for change.  It must come from either Mrs Twist or Jack.  I could imagine that either of these two had become strong enough for this, but I tend to think it would be more Jack - there is a complex set of reasons why I think this but I think I'll save that and let other people contribute (I don't want to be a thread-hog after all).  I'll also save what possible things I could see happen at the confrontation for later, I'm interested in what everyone else thinks.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2006, 09:42:00 pm »
Somewhere along the line, I think the role of economics would have entered into it. In the Annie Proulx story, the old man has a line that didn't make it into the screenplay: "I can't get no help out here." It might be interesting to see him deal with the conflict between his disdain for his son and his probable dislike of Ennis on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the fact that he suddenly has two healthy, strappin' young fellas to run his ranch for him and maybe turn the place around.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2006, 10:39:26 pm »
I think it's interesting that Jack kept mentioning bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat. I mean, at the beginning of the short story, Jack is "crazy to be somewhere, anywhere else than Lightning Flat," and at the beginning of the movie Jack says working for Aguirre is better than working for his old man. Maybe that's just a rebellious nineteen-year-old talking, but Jack's restless enough to follow the rodeo circuit for some time until he meets Lureen, and he makes a life down in Texas. (He might be willing to come back to Wyoming for Ennis, but he doesn't come back longterm on his own.) I could almost imagine Jack's father baiting him about coming home to stay during every visit, and commenting that Jack thinks he's too good for ranch work, until Jack tells him that someday Jack's coming back and bringing some good help with him.

Didn't somebody mention in another thread that men of John Twist's generation, men who had made it through the Depression and the Dust Bowl years, could be pretty prickly about help? I don't know; I'm a generation younger than Jack myself, and it was my grandparents' generation that quit farming in my family.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2006, 12:11:08 am »
I think they would have avoided each other as much as possible and been kind of taciturn when they did come into contact. Ennis is a fairly polite guy, and seems to get along well enough with Monroe and whatever other men he knows. But he wouldn't have felt obliged to be as forbearing with Mr. Twist as he was in the kitchen scene. And Mr. Twist, for his part, would disapprove of the arrangement but could use the help. So they'd grudgingly tolerate each other.

It's funny how despite Jack's miserable relationship with his father he keeps dutifully making those trips back to see the folks. I guess that's mainly because his mom is so nice.

And Chris, you are in no way a thread hog. (If you are, then I am competing for the blue ribbon in the State Fair swine barn.)

(Is that last one too obscure a reference for urban folks? Back home in Minnesota, there's a swine competition in the State Fair that attracts hogs as big as cows. Balls on 'em the size a canteloupes.)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 01:45:13 am by latjoreme »

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 12:30:59 am »
Heya,

Yes, Chris, I agree, this question leads to a lot of speculation and "what if" type questions.  But, I still think it's fun to imagine.  By the way, your contributions are always welcome!  You too, Katherine, of course.
 :D

One major factor that I think would play into any interaction between Ennis and John Twist is that Mr. Twist is used to being the tough guy on the ranch and is probably pretty comfortable pushing people around.  It seems unlikely that Ennis would let himself be pushed around by Mr. Twist on a regular basis.  He gives in on the ashes question, well obviously for a number of reasons, but again, it's hard to imagine Ennis backing down over more mundane things.  Essentially, I think that there'd be a lot of competition for "stud duck" status on the ranch.  I don't think Jack would step in much here... I get the sense that he was pretty intimidated by his Dad.  I get the sense that for better or worse, Jack and Mrs. Twist would always be the mediators/ peacemakers or at least caught in the middle.  You get the sense tht Mrs. Twist is already caught in the middle in the Lightning Flat scene.  Her face just before Ennis leaves and as Mr. Twist is reiterating his demand that Jack go in the family plot just shows how torn she is between the two (not contradicting Mr. Twist, but clearly heartbroken that Ennis can't fulfill Jack's final wish).  You can sense she fears a confrontation.   I love how subversive she really is though... and pretty much right in front of her overbearing husband.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2006, 01:28:29 am »
It seems unlikely that Ennis would let himself be pushed around by Mr. Twist on a regular basis.  He gives in on the ashes question, well obviously for a number of reasons, but again, it's hard to imagine Ennis backing down over more mundane things. Essentially, I think that there'd be a lot of competition for "stud duck" status on the ranch.  I don't think Jack would step in much here... I get the sense that he was pretty intimidated by his Dad. 

That's interesting, Amanda. You think of Ennis as extremely assertive, but I have a different image of him. Yes, when pressed occasionally he lashes out: beats up the obnoxious bikers and tries to beat up the guy in the truck. On the other hand, when we first meet him he is so shy he can hardly carry on a conversation. And even as he gets older and less shy he's still quietly courteous if not outright deferential to almost everyone else we see him in contact with: Jack (except for those two times in 20 years), Aguirre, the Basque guy (he sure isn't very assertive about the missing powdered milk and spuds) Monroe, Lureen, the Twists. He's only confrontational with Alma a couple of times, and then  in a pretty typical marital way. He's downright passive with Cassie except for his rudeness at the end (and his breakup style is passive to a fault). He's never anything but gentle with his daughters.

Jack is at least as assertive as Ennis, arguably more so. The scenario you describe, Amanda, of Ennis and Mr. Twist competing and Jack staying out of it -- I can more easily imagine things the other way around! Jack snaps at the bartender in the Jimbo scene. He shows on Thanksgiving that he won't back down from a bullying older man. For that matter, he doesn't back down from Ennis, either. And if his dad has mean to him, it doesn't stop him from going back for frequent visits -- he seems resentful, but not intimidated. "Me and Ennis Del Mar are gonna come back here and whip this ranch into shape" sounds a bit challenging, even, implying as it does that the old man has let the ranch fall out of shape.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 08:20:37 am by latjoreme »

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2006, 07:28:46 am »
Quote
Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch?

Well, I can. Co-existed is the key word in your sentence. I can imagine them both to ignore each other as much as possible for years, living on the same ground in a "Don't ask - don't tell"- mode.
It wouldn't be a peaceful coexistence, but a tense one.

Old man Twist on the one side and Jack and Ennis on the other would kind of interdepend: Old Twist needed someone to help him run the ranch. And two persons would've been even better; particularly  Ennis and Jack weren't slackers, but "brought up to hard work". I can imagine that Old Twist would have hated Ennis's guts (I think he hated each and every person on the planet), but appreciated his attidude towards work. And he would have known that he can't afford to antagonize with him.

Ennis on the other side is not a provoking person. I don't see him competing with Old Twist, but avoiding him as much as possible. I guess on this "ignoring each other as much as possible basis" it would have been possible for them to co-exist on the same ranch. Like a way of ceasefire.

A sweet life? Yes, in comparison to what they actually had.
What might have been...  :'( 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 07:30:48 am by Penthesilea »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2006, 09:13:26 am »
I noticed, too, that Jack is "crazy" to be away from Lightning Flat--and his old man--but I wonder if he starts talking about bringing Ennis there to turn the family ranch around because he starts to realize that it would be financially impossible for him and Ennis to set up a little cow and calf operation anywhere else. The Twist spread might have been run-down, but at least it was already a going concern, so there was no need to buy land, stock, and equipment.

On the other hand, maybe his talk of bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat was just what the old man implied--just talk. It gives me no  pleasure to think that.  :(
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2006, 11:07:03 am »
Quote
Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch?
Like several others I can see that, too. Co-existing. Ennis isn't confrontational unless provoked into rage and fear by remarks that he deems to touch upon his sexuality, - and he isn't assertive in my view. But he sure *does* know how to be stubborn: That *look* he gives Alma when she protests him dumping their daughters off at the store. The fact that he keeps up the "way the hell out in the back of nowhere" arrangement when Jack wants so much more for 16 long years. I can see Ennis living on that ranch and determinedly avoiding old man Twist for just as long, given that the old man doesn't provoke any confrontation on his part.

And Mr. Twist is just as stubborn. He's stubbornly mean and bitter, all set on not being the one who blinks first, all set on never seeing any silver lining. Even when looking only at what we get to know about him in the movie. He's apparently been consistently unrelenting in his refusal (for whatever reason) to support and behave with any degree of human decency towards his own son, even when that son was just a teenager.
I think his coffee cup in the one scene where we get to meet him in the film says it all. He spits into the cup in contempt while talking to Ennis. Then he holds on to the thing all the time Ennis is upstairs. He doesn't push it away, doesn't hand it to his wife to put it in the sink..... he holds on to it. It's as if he wants to remain armed and waits to see if Ennis will do or say anything when he comes back down that requires him to demonstrate his contempt once more. So yes, I can see old man Twist living on a ranch with Ennis, never backing down from showing some sort of disdain should Ennis come directly in his way, never showing recognition for the work done, armed and ready for a confrontation, but not going out of his way to take any notice of Ennis or make trouble as long as Ennis kept himself at arm's length. A ceasefire, just like Pehthesilea says.

But what a strain on Jack and his mother, living inbetween!


Quote
I think it's interesting that Jack kept mentioning bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat.

I've always thought that to be very sad. I've pictured Jack bursting and overflowing with emotions and the need to talk about Ennis and his hopes for a common future, to say Ennis's name out loud to somebody, *anybody*..... And he always had to keep silent and keep it all under wraps. But his parent's was the one place for him to let out a little steam, to not tell it all but at least to say *something*, and what a tragedy that he had noone else than his horrible father for that! (I've imagined Jack's mother and father both reading much more in his face and his tone than what he actually ever said in words, too; - hence their seemingly knowing reaction to Ennis when they finally meet him - the father so contemptful, the mother so full of understanding and affection.) Over the years, I've imagined it became a habit of Jack's to repeat himself on the subject. As his hopes died, perhaps it slowly became a kind of empty mantra that he still couldn't help repeating - not even when he was seriously considering leaving Ennis and forming a closer connection to Randall. Because I can see Ennis living on that ranch, but I just can't see Randall ever doing it, nor can I really see Jack being truly serious about moving up there with him. Granted we know next to nothing about him, but he just doesn't seem all that used to hard work and privation, brought up too the stoic life. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 11:50:00 am by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2006, 11:53:15 am »
That *look* he gives Alma when she protests him dumping their daughters off at the store.

OT, but I've always found that a strange moment. Yeah, his look is stubborn, but more in a pleading than threatening way. Yet Alma suddenly backs down as if scared of him. I know we're supposed to think that Alma fears physical violence from Ennis, but once again if that's the case it's not well supported by the evidence we see. (And later, when she's stalking off to work and he's yelling at her, she doesn't seem scared at all.)

(I've imagined Jack's mother and father both reading much more in his face and his tone than what he actually ever said in words, too; - hence their seemingly knowing reaction to Ennis when they finally meet him - the father so contemptful, the mother so full of understanding and affection.)

Well, I wonder how out Jack was with his parents. Their automatic and complete understanding of Jack's and Ennis' relationship, the mother's boundless sympathy and keeping of the shirts, the old man's remarks about "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" and "thought he was too special to be buried in the family plot" (with its hint of Jack violating "family values"), his lack of surprise about Jack's ranching plans, even possibly his rejection of his son in the first place ... It's hard to imagine them all openly chatting about Jack's sexuality over the kitchen table, I guess, but somehow I gather the folks have long been pretty familliar with it.

Which must have been a bit surprising for Ennis when he meets them. Sure, Mr. Twist is a jerk, but in Ennis' experience, the way fathers react to homosexuality is not by making snide remarks but by torturing someone to death.




« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 01:42:20 pm by latjoreme »

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2006, 01:38:41 pm »
I've been letting the original question rattle around in my head, and I can't quite decide exactly what my answer is.

I think it depends on how Ennis and Mr. Twist relate to one another: as ranch hand and employer, or as Jack's lover and Jack's father?

As Mikaela, Katherine, and Penthesilea have said, Ennis tends to be pretty deferential except in the circumstances that lead to fights. And I would add that, as an employee, Ennis seems to be very responsible. ("We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat them." "We've got to stick this out, Jack." That look of guilt when the sheep is dead after the first night in the tent -- and I know there's a lot more symbolism in that scene than that, but I think Ennis-the-responsible-worker is part of the dynamic in that scene. And then later on, all those times when Ennis skips out on Christmas to do ranch work, or drops off the girls with Alma because the heifers are calving, or goes on a round-up instead of taking his one-weekend-a-month with his daughters.) And Ennis also doesn't tend to rebel -- he seems willing to take orders that aren't reasonable (sleep-with-the-sheep-no-fire), or to work long hours without getting much in return.

The exceptions, the times Ennis does rebel or complain, all are tied to Jack. Jack's the reason Ennis orders soup, even though it's hard to pack. Jack's the reason Ennis poaches an elk (and yeah, that's a compromise, but it's still against the rules). Ennis switches assigned jobs after Jack complains. Ennis stays in camp longer than he should, and eventually spends the night there, because he likes being with Jack. Ennis complains about Aguirre cutting them out of a month's pay because Ennis doesn't want to leave Jack. And later on, Ennis quits jobs so he can go on the "fishing trips."

Ennis's violent streak, as Mikaela pointed out, always seems tied to comments about Ennis's sexuality. (I might go so far as to say that Ennis gets into fights because of the conflicts going on inside him, almost as if Ennis is trying to beat his sexuality into submission by hitting other people.) So a lot would hinge on how much Ennis had come to accept himself in order to try to live the "sweet life."

And as for Ennis's relationship with Jack's father -- well, I think that would depend a lot on how Jack dealt with it. If Jack's father avoided Ennis, and Ennis just did the work and avoided Jack's father, then they would probably be able to co-exist. But if Jack's father treated Ennis badly -- I could see Ennis just taking it, as long as Jack's father didn't manage to hit one of Ennis's sore points (and then, watch out -- Ennis is like a dormant volcano, I swear). But Jack complains when things don't seem right to him. (Bitching about Aguirre's orders, complaining to the teacher about his son, backing up Lureen at Thanksgiving. And, of course, "no more beans.") And if Jack complains, Ennis does something. Not exactly what Jack wants, not most of the time. But Ennis does something. (And if Jack and Ennis moved up to Lightning Flat, that would mean that Ennis became more likely to give in when Jack wanted something, not less likely as in the movie/story.)

Katherine: I interpret "though he was too special..." as referring to a lot of different things -- maybe partly to Jack's sexuality, but also to the fact that Jack left home, moved to Texas, and never even brought his wife and baby to visit them. Yes, they could have gone to Texas to visit as well, but Jack's father just seems so typical of all the old rural families that I have known who watched their kids move away -- even the really nice parents get resentful of all that separation from their kids and grandkids.

Jeff -- yes, I think that the Twist ranch would have been the most economically viable option for Jack and Ennis. It's strange that movie-Jack mentions things like Ennis moving to Texas late in their relationship, but never mentions Lightning Flat as an option. I know that Ennis is really twitchy about the whole living-together thing, but from a practical standpoint, the Lightning Flat option has a lot going for it. It just might work financially. It's at least in Wyoming, even if it's pretty far from Riverton, so it might be practical for Ennis to see his daughters once a month. And if Ennis was really afraid of living openly with Jack, they could concoct a reasonable cover story about being a ranch owner and foreman. (In an ideal world, they wouldn't need to, but Wyoming is hardly an ideal world.)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2006, 02:12:19 pm »
Lots of great points, Mel. I think I agree with everything you say. In fact, you brought up a few things I hadn't thought of but which go further to support my earlier opinion -- such as Ennis' strong sense of resonsibility and hard work and his willingness to abide discomfort, alongside Jack's tendency to complain and rebel and unwillingness to settle for unsatisfactory situations.

(As for Mr. Twist's "too special" remark, Mel, I agree. He probably meant mainly the things you mentioned, and he probably wasn't explicitly or consciously referring to sexuality either then, or when he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" or "family plot." But those lines have that metaphoric meaning for viewers. In other words, as far as Mr. Twist knows, he's simply noting that he could find Brokeback and put the ashes there himself if he wanted to, which he doesn't. But because we connect the mountain with Jack and Ennis' relationship, we can interpret it as a clue that he knows about Jack.)

Anyway, I take all these things to suggest that the main conflicts at the ranch, if any, would be between the father and son. Ennis would work hard and be responsible and try to get along, getting mad only if he felt Jack were being hurt in some way. Which Jack wouldn't be, because he wouldn't put up with his old man's shit no more. But the old man, for his part, would realize he needed the help and, though not thrilled with the arrangement, would grudgingly go along with it. He'd be doing a lot of spittin, though.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2006, 02:17:25 pm »
OT, but I've always found that a strange moment. Yeah, his look is stubborn, but more in a pleading than threatening way. Yet Alma suddenly backs down as if scared of him.

OT on my part too, but I can't see this scene as Alma being afraid of physical violence either. (In fact, I didn't see that or consider it apart from in their last confrontation of course, until Michelle Williams pointed this fear of violence out as part of Alma's motivation. I still have a hard time seeing it in how Alma behaves during their marriage...) Anyway, what I saw and still see when Ennis drops the kids off in the store, is Alma thinking to herself: "Uh-oh. He's got that look that says he'll *never* back down. I might as well give in now and save some time, because he'll certainly never do so."


Quote
Sure, Mr. Twist is a jerk, but in Ennis' experience, the way fathers react to homosexuality is not by making snide remarks but by torturing someone to death.


It's remarkable how much Mr. Twist in the film benefits from the filmmakers excluding any reference to that horrible child abuse scene in the short story. It makes him appear in the film as an embittered, extremely small-minded and prejudiced man, but not as an outright monster; - while Ennis's father, on the other hand.....   >:(


Quote
From Nakymaton
I think it depends on how Ennis and Mr. Twist relate to one another: as ranch hand and employer, or as Jack's lover and Jack's father?

Insofar that they have to relate to one another, I imagine it would be the former, - that would be the front they'd have to put up to the world at large, wouldn't it - so they should probably manage to keep up the same pretence to the point of exchanging monosyllables and otherwise to keep out of each other's way , keeping their thoughts to themselves.

However, I was wondering - is there no US tradition or formalized system of the next generation taking over the farm, and the "old people" staying on, on specified terms concerning how much of the proceeds from the farm they have a right to etc.? That's the system in my country, fine-tuned over the centuries - it ensures a transition of the formal responsibility and ownership to those who actually can be expected to do most of the farm work. Of course, the older generation has to agree that "it's time" for the transition to run smoothly. In the alternate version we're discussing here, on the personal relationship level it might have been easier on all concerned if Jack took over the responsibility of the ranch. And no need for old man Twist to do anything to "save face" if that system was acknowledged in their society as the proper way of things.


Quote
He'd be doing a lot of spittin, though.
Yes! But then Ennis is a consummate spitter, too. The hygiene conditions on the Twist Ranch might inbetween leave something to be desired..... ;)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 02:23:32 pm by Mikaela »

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2006, 02:46:52 pm »
(As for Mr. Twist's "too special" remark, Mel, I agree. He probably meant mainly the things you mentioned, and he probably wasn't explicitly or consciously referring to sexuality either then, or when he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" or "family plot." But those lines have that metaphoric meaning for viewers. In other words, as far as Mr. Twist knows, he's simply noting that he could find Brokeback and put the ashes there himself if he wanted to, which he doesn't. But because we connect the mountain with Jack and Ennis' relationship, we can interpret it as a clue that he knows about Jack.)
Oh, definitely. There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect. (Which is why I'm still trying to talk through it after five months or more.) And sexuality is definitely an undercurrent in that conversation.

(Actually, the spitting even has more than one level of meaning. I kind of figured that Mr. Twist chewed tobacco, and that the cup was his spitoon. I've seen guys spit into far more disturbing things than a coffee cup. But, yes, it also serves as a particular sort of punctuation to the conversation!)

Mikaela -

Hmmmm. US property law. It's possible to set up a "trust," in which property is passed on to an heir before the death of the original property owner. But for some reason, it doesn't seem as though farming/ranching families use them that much. (I hear a lot of stories about elderly owners dying and their kids selling the place to developers to pay the estate taxes, though I don't know the truth behind the stories -- they get brought up in political debates, and may be exaggerated.) For some reason, the past few generations of farm/ranch kids don't seem to have been as likely to keep up the family place. I don't know if it has to do with US property law, or if it has to do with pressure for 20-somethings to go make their own way in the world, and then the kids not being willing to go back to the farm/ranch once they're 40 or older.

The question might also be whether Mr. Twist, the original "stud duck," would have been willing to let Jack be the "man of the place." But, yeah, if there were a stronger tradition in place, it might make that kind of transition easier.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2006, 03:01:36 pm »
There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect.

Tell you what - I think that would be an interesting topic in its own right: Which lines in the movie cannot under any circumstance be said to have more than one meaning, - ie. can *only* be interpreted in one specific way, at face value? I bet there aren't many. I'd create that thread myself except I feel a bit too new around here still.

Quote
Actually, the spitting even has more than one level of meaning. I kind of figured that Mr. Twist chewed tobacco, and that the cup was his spitoon.
Oh, the spitting definitely has more than one meaning. Even if it's viewed as a certain sign of contempt (which by no means is certain)  - what is it contempt *for*? Jack thinking himself above his folks? Jack's (and Ennis's) sexual orientation? Everyone and anything in general, 'cause Mr. Twist is a mean old bugger?

It doesn't look to me as if he's chewing tobacco - at least not that the actor is doing it in the scene. But that doesn't mean that Mr. Twist didn't chew, of course.



And thank you for the explanation on US property law!  :)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 03:06:39 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2006, 03:08:17 pm »
Oh, definitely. There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect. (Which is why I'm still trying to talk through it after five months or more.) And sexuality is definitely an undercurrent in that conversation.

OK, I should have figured that's what you meant. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound teachery.

Quote
I've seen guys spit into far more disturbing things than a coffee cup.

I once had a boss who chewed tobacco all day long and spat in his trash can. The worst part was that after he left, I got his job, his desk ... and his trash can.

Good idea, Mikaela, only it's so hard to exclude the possibility of multiple interpretations of almost any line, maybe it would work better to just list lines and see how many different interpretations we can come up with. Either way, go ahead and start a thread! No one's too new, and it's your good idea. Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)


Mikaela -

Hmmmm. US property law. It's possible to set up a "trust," in which property is passed on to an heir before the death of the original property owner. But for some reason, it doesn't seem as though farming/ranching families use them that much. (I hear a lot of stories about elderly owners dying and their kids selling the place to developers to pay the estate taxes, though I don't know the truth behind the stories -- they get brought up in political debates, and may be exaggerated.) For some reason, the past few generations of farm/ranch kids don't seem to have been as likely to keep up the family place. I don't know if it has to do with US property law, or if it has to do with pressure for 20-somethings to go make their own way in the world, and then the kids not being willing to go back to the farm/ranch once they're 40 or older.

The question might also be whether Mr. Twist, the original "stud duck," would have been willing to let Jack be the "man of the place." But, yeah, if there were a stronger tradition in place, it might make that kind of transition easier.
[/quote]

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2006, 03:19:34 pm »
Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)

Well, at least it's given rise to some good captions as Ennis replies: "Be my guest" and "Go right ahead!" and the like.

It *is* a weird line. I've been thinking that the vicar senses more than the normal tension in the air - Ennis probably is radiating much more mixed-up determination and reluctance than your normal groom - so perhaps he felt the need to break the tension with a bit of humour. Or perhaps he figured Ennis needed an additional spur to get on with it? Or perhaps he was just the kind of person who couldn't stop himself from telling misplaced jokes at the most inappropriate of times.

Yup, multiple meanings to *that* line for sure!  ;)

Which reminds me of another topic I've been curious about - The Del Mar family and their church involvement. It's mentioned several times throughout the film - it would be interesting to explore that a bit, and what it meant to Ennis, Alma and their daughters respectively. But I honestly do not feel comfortable posting threads here just yet - so as for a new "One or multiple meaning of lines" thread - please do go right ahead!  :)


Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2006, 03:29:07 pm »
maybe it would work better to just list lines and see how many different interpretations we can come up with. Either way, go ahead and start a thread! No one's too new, and it's your good idea. Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)
That would be fun. Heck, we could just go through the screenplay and list a different line each day, and see how many different interpretations we could come up with. (Probably "Hunnh?" will have the most possible readings. :D )

And then we can start on the multiple interpretations of every one of Ennis's facial expressions. :D (Jack's, too, but Ennis in particular says so much without words.)

(And you didn't sound teacher-y. :D)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2006, 03:44:52 pm »
Yay! We can keep these threads going for months and months. I would gladly spend that much time scrutinizing every single one of Ennis' facial expressions. (Hell, I already have spent that much time doing that!  ;))

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2006, 03:57:14 pm »
But I honestly do not feel comfortable posting threads here just yet - so as for a new "One or multiple meaning of lines" thread - please do go right ahead!

Well, I'm happy to post for you, but I'll warn you, my threads have a way of sinking like stones. Pretty good with other people's threads, though!


Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2006, 03:59:47 pm »
Well, I'm happy to post for you, but I'll warn you, my threads have a way of sinking like stones. Pretty good with other people's threads, though!
Can't be much worse than me, then.

(Sorry, Mikaela... I couldn't resist playing Ennis on that one!)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2006, 04:35:06 pm »
So...... what are you waiting for, - a postin' call?  :D


(Sorry, couldn't resist either)


Looking forward to it, it'll be fun. Plus I sure haven't minded studying Ennis's and Jack's expressions so far - I'm sure I'm up for some more!

 :)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2006, 05:21:20 pm »
Sorry ... I was trying to think of a clever title. I thought maybe my boring titles was why nobody ever contributed to my other threads. Once again I struck out, though, so I'm just going to go with the obvious.

UPDATE: OK, done. Now go fill it up with posts!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 06:05:50 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2006, 08:40:25 pm »
Jack is at least as assertive as Ennis, arguably more so.

Heya Katherine,
Yes, I think this is true for all the reasons you point out... he even takes down L.D. in front of the whole family.  I feel that this assertiveness is true of Jack in almost every case except for with his Dad.  I don't have any great proof or reasoning for this, but I feel like Jack would be pretty intimidated by his Dad.  Maybe I'm projecting too much of what we know of the abusive back story into the movie, but I would think this would leave Jack in a very awkward position in regards to Pa Twist.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2006, 08:51:12 pm »
Well, I'm happy to post for you, but I'll warn you, my threads have a way of sinking like stones. Pretty good with other people's threads, though!

LOL.  :D 
Awww, Katherine come on! Your threads are great.

Quote
Yay! We can keep these threads going for months and months. I would gladly spend that much time scrutinizing every single one of Ennis' facial expressions. (Hell, I already have spent that much time doing that!

LOL.  This reminds me of that funny thread from TOB where someone catalogued all of Ennis's "huh" and "hunh" and "hmmmm"  and "mmmm" lines.
 :laugh:

By the way, thanks to everyone for all the wonderful posts in this thread!  Some really interesting ideas circulating here.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 08:53:51 pm by atz75 »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2006, 09:29:01 pm »
I feel that this assertiveness is true of Jack in almost every case except for with his Dad.  I don't have any great proof or reasoning for this, but I feel like Jack would be pretty intimidated by his Dad. 

I agree that Jack can be every bit as assertive as Ennis, and then some. But their differing degree of self-confidence gives their assertiveness different triggerpoints, it seems.

Ennis has next to no self-confidence at all. He takes every slight and possible insult much more personally as a result, and either stews on it in hurt but seemingly unaffected silence, I think - or explodes in uncontrolled rage if there's a sexual connotation involved.

Jack on the other hand has a good deal of self-confidence, but also a very disarming ability to laugh at himself and to not take himself too seriously. It takes quite a lot for him to become overtly assertive - he knows and believes in his own worth, he doesn't feel the need to get up all in arms every time someone steps on his toes. (The Thanksgiving show-down in my opinion is partly due to his sense of obligation towards Bobby. The boy needs a father to be proud of; - and moreover he needs to be "saved" from having LD as his (only) role model. If not for his son's sake, I'm not entirely certain Jack would have bothered with the tension of having an open confrontation with LD, no matter what his father-in-law might think to say to provoke him.)

Now, how Jack ever got that healthy self-confidence is a bit of a mystery to me. Growing up on that lonely farm with *that* unsupporting, ever displeased and negative father? (I'm taking Jack's statements about his father at face value in this - how his father never came to see him bullriding, never taught him anything, how he couldn't ever please his father, no way.... The one meeting we have with old man Twist certainly doesnt  do anything to contradict Jack's tales of his father. I'm also keeping the short story's tale of child abuse out of the equation since it's not in the film.) Jack's mother must have been the main force and supportive constant in Jack's life and development for him to become the character we get to know. But inevitably I think that whenever grown-up Jack had dealings with his father, he'd find it hard to shake the feelings of the boy who never measured up to his father's expectations, of being seen as inferior, not quite good enough - all that his father instilled in him from childhood. Plus, there must have been a strong feeling of resentment. I think much of Jack's normal self-confidence evaporated where his father was concerned. I wonder if he'd bothered going back home to visit if his father had been a widower. I guess not. But perhaps he'd still be trying to impress his father into approving of him at last - if he couldn't do it through bull-riding, perhaps he could do it through eventually "whipping the farm into shape".

 
(It's awfully late here, so apologies if this post is even less coherent than usual.)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 10:01:53 pm by Mikaela »

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2006, 12:08:30 am »
Ennis has next to no self-confidence at all. He takes every slight and possible insult much more personally as a result, and either stews on it in hurt but seemingly unaffected silence, I think - or explodes in uncontrolled rage if there's a sexual connotation involved.

Jack on the other hand has a good deal of self-confidence, but also a very disarming ability to laugh at himself and to not take himself too seriously. It takes quite a lot for him to become overtly assertive - he knows and believes in his own worth, he doesn't feel the need to get up all in arms every time someone steps on his toes. (The Thanksgiving show-down in my opinion is partly due to his sense of obligation towards Bobby. The boy needs a father to be proud of; - and moreover he needs to be "saved" from having LD as his (only) role model. If not for his son's sake, I'm not entirely certain Jack would have bothered with the tension of having an open confrontation with LD, no matter what his father-in-law might think to say to provoke him.)

Now, how Jack ever got that healthy self-confidence is a bit of a mystery to me.

Hi Mikaela,
Thanks for your post/ posts here!  They're really interesting.  Well I think these points are particularly interesting.  I think you're right about Jack's self-confidence and about the reasons for his Thanksgiving outburst.  But, as you mentioned trigger points... It seems important to note the specific trigger point in his out rage at LD.  Here there's a similarity with Ennis.  It's after LD says "you want you're son to grow up to be a man, don't you daughter?" that Jack snaps.  So, his anger had been building but it's when LD comes the closest to making an outright homophobic remark that Jack boils over.  Also, it's interesting that LD directs his comment specifically to Lureen here as if the point he's making would be lost on Jack or something.  A double insult at least.

As to where Jack gets his self confidence... well I think it's from his Mom!  She demonstrates quite a good deal of ability in circumventing John Twist's hostility even in Ennis's brief visit.  She really is very subversive in her quiet way.  If you think about it... what do we think the over-riding impression was for Ennis coming away from Lightning Flat?  Yes he was dismayed, angered and hurt by John Twist, but I'm quite sure his most important impression must have been Mrs. Twist's kindness, respect and her nods of approval in Ennis finding the shirts.  I would think he'd be amazed and heartened at this (especially because he goes about the world expecting people to be hostile towards anything that hints at homosexuality... instead here in Mrs. Twist he finds the opposite).  So maybe Mrs. Twists kindnesses to Jack as he grew up somehow managed to outweigh John Twist's hurtful behavior so that Jack would be able to go out into the world feeling pretty self-assured (although not perfectly so).
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2006, 07:24:08 pm »
Quote
On a more serious note, in the book it's made pretty clear (and it's hinted in the film) that John Twist was pretty abusive to Jack.  How would Ennis have reacted to seeing Jack berated by his father?

Ennis would probably feel bad about it but I don't think he'd intervene, unless things get really out of hand. I guess Ennis would figure that Jack is a big boy who knows how to handle his own father. Besides, by the time they moved to Lightning Flat, John C. would be an old man already in need of help. Maybe on the inside he would not approve their relationship and even despise Ennis. He might let out a nasty comment  or two, but in general he would keep it to himself in order to have Jack around. I'm sure he loved his son, he probably didn't understand him, but he loved Jack.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 07:26:01 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2006, 07:38:42 pm »
Quote
The Thanksgiving show-down in my opinion is partly due to his sense of obligation towards Bobby. The boy needs a father to be proud of; - and moreover he needs to be "saved" from having LD as his (only) role model. If not for his son's sake, I'm not entirely certain Jack would have bothered with the tension of having an open confrontation with LD, no matter what his father-in-law might think to say to provoke him.

I'm not sure about this. When LD takes the carving knife from Jack and says the stud duck does the turkey carving, Jack even apologizes like a little boy, and sits down. He later gets angry but I don't think it was because he suddenly realizes he has to set an example for his son and wife. His anger is fueled by years and years of frustration with his life. Nothing has come out the way he wanted, not one single dream of his came true. He gets tired of playing second fiddle to everybody and explodes at that very moment, that's all. It has nothing to do with Bobby.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 07:45:41 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline David

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,097
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2006, 07:40:31 pm »
I think as long as old man Twist was alive that Jack and Ennis wouldn't be as comfortable together as they were up on Brokeback.   Maybe after the old man dies they would feel more at ease around Jacks Mom.    

I can picture Jack at the kitchen table with his mom at the stove when Ennis comes in the house and gives Jack a kiss.     Ennis would never do that if the old man was there!

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2006, 11:43:40 pm »
I can picture Jack at the kitchen table with his mom at the stove when Ennis comes in the house and gives Jack a kiss.

Wow, that would be quite something David.  Somehow I can't imagine Ennis showing affection like that in front of other people even in this imaginary situation of living with Jack in Lightning Flat.  I do think he'd be more comfortable and open around Ma Twist, but somehow I think he'd still be way too shy to kiss.

So, now I have a question... Back to the world of the actual movie.  When Ennis arrives in Lightning Flat it seems pretty clear that Jack's parents are expecting him.  At least Jack's Mom seems to be waiting by the door and comes out to greet him.  She probably baked that cherry cake in anticipation of company (one can imagine they probably don't have visitors too regularly).   So, how did Ennis let them know he was coming?  Did they have a phone in that funny old house?  What would that introductory phone call have been like I wonder?  Did he send a postcard?  I guess this leads back to the question of how long did Ennis wait after his phone call to Lureen before setting off for Lightning Flat.  I know some people think he left right away. 

Interesting.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2006, 12:41:18 am »
My opinion is that he let them know he was coming. There's something about the way she steps on the porch that tells me she was anticipating his arrival. And the coffee was all brewed and ready to pour. (The cake may have been something she just habitually keeps on hand.) In an earlier discussion, Jeff pointed out that if he'd called ahead they might have mentioned that the ashes were already slated for the family plot. So maybe he sent a postcard. But then he would have had to wait at least a couple of days before going. Hmm.

I like the idea of them being free to kiss in front of Ma Twist once Pa is out of the picture, though. I think if we go through all the leaps of faith we have to go through even to get that far -- the biggest one being that for whatever reason Ennis lets go of his reservations -- that one isn't so farfetched. Ma Twist is so kind and empatheticI think eventually they would have felt pretty comfortable with her.

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2006, 07:41:37 am »
My opinion is that he let them know he was coming. There's something about the way she steps on the porch that tells me she was anticipating his arrival. And the coffee was all brewed and ready to pour. (The cake may have been something she just habitually keeps on hand.) In an earlier discussion, Jeff pointed out that if he'd called ahead they might have mentioned that the ashes were already slated for the family plot. So maybe he sent a postcard. But then he would have had to wait at least a couple of days before going. Hmm.

Talk about the ashes over the phone? That's unlikely, especially if they don't know each other. A Burial or ashes scattering is intimate, you just don't call out of the blue and make such an offer, especially to a parent. I can't picture Ennis doing that. I think he called ahead, (Jack's mom probably picked up the phone since she's the one who's usually at home), explained who he was and that he wanted to stop by to offer his condolences. Mrs. Twist, happy to finally meet one of Jack's friend, said yes and later told her husband about it, leaving him with no choice but to let Ennis come.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2006, 07:53:40 am by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline David

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,097
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2006, 07:59:45 am »
I definately think he went up there ASAP.    I don't think he could have waited until next spring.      He may have sent a postcard or letter, General Delivery of course, as he wouldn't have known the exact address.   It may have just said:

Mr. & Mrs. Twist

My name is Ennis Delmar.  I was a good friend of
Jacks and would like to come up and see you for
a visit to express my condolences.  Please let me
know if this is S'alright and reply with your address
and some directions.

Ennis


To which Ma Twist would have immediately recognized the name.   I'm sure she was anxious to meet the man her son raved about.  I'm sure she was sincere when she told him to come back sometime.    Especially after the Stud duck kicks the bucket.  Jack was an only child, she could leave the ranch to Ennis in her will !

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2006, 08:07:15 am »
I definately think he went up there ASAP.    I don't think he could have waited until next spring.      He may have sent a postcard or letter, General Delivery of course, as he wouldn't have known the exact address.   It may have just said:

Mr. & Mrs. Twist

My name is Ennis Delmar.  I was a good friend of
Jacks and would like to come up and see you for
a visit to express my condolences.  Please let me
know if this is S'alright and reply with your address
and some directions.

Ennis


To which Ma Twist would have immediately recognized the name.   I'm sure she was anxious to meet the man her son raved about.  I'm sure she was sincere when she told him to come back sometime.    Especially after the Stud duck kicks the bucket.  Jack was an only child, she could leave the ranch to Ennis in her will !

What about Bobby?
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2006, 08:31:09 am »
What about Bobby?

Screw Bobby. He's already got a big inheritence coming. Besides, what's a kid from New Jersey gonna do with a ranch in Wyoming?

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm liking this turn of events, anyway. I'd love to see Ennis get the financial boost, but to imagine him living by himself on that desolate ranch ...  :'(

Offline David

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,097
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2006, 08:39:23 am »
Bobby?   I'm sure the Twists NEVER met him!    They know he exists, but I'm sure Jack made it known that Old L.D. Newsome had a college fund all set up for Bobby.   Besides, look how Bobby was raised.  You think he would want to leave a nice home and job/college to go up to Lightning Flat?    I don't think so, an neither would the Twists.     I could definately see Ma Twist leaving the Ranch to Ennis.

As for Ennis being isolated out there?    How is that any different from his trailer??   At least he would out on the ranch doing what he likes best.   And who knows, maybe he'll meet a handsome young buck at the feed store who needs a job as a Ranch hand?

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2006, 08:58:32 am »
Bobby?   I'm sure the Twists NEVER met him!    They know he exists, but I'm sure Jack made it known that Old L.D. Newsome had a college fund all set up for Bobby.   Besides, look how Bobby was raised.  You think he would want to leave a nice home and job/college to go up to Lightning Flat?    I don't think so, an neither would the Twists.     I could definately see Ma Twist leaving the Ranch to Ennis.

As for Ennis being isolated out there?    How is that any different from his trailer??   At least he would out on the ranch doing what he likes best.   And who knows, maybe he'll meet a handsome young buck at the feed store who needs a job as a Ranch hand?

Well, ok but I had this idea that maybe Bobby when he grows up might want to know more about his dad. The lost of a parent hits hard on a child, especially a loving and caring parent like Jack was. I picture him driving all the way to Wyoming to get to know Lightning Flat and if he's lucky to even meet one of Jack's parent who might still be alive. He would try to find out about Ennis, I'm sure he's heard something about him when growing up. But this is some idea of mine. Perhaps Lureen brainwashes him enough to forget about his dad or at least not do anything to find out more about him.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2006, 09:07:12 am »
Talk about the ashes over the phone? That's unlikely, especially if they don't know each other. A Burial or ashes scattering is intimate, you just don't call out of the blue and make such an offer, especially to a parent. I can't picture Ennis doing that. I think he called ahead, (Jack's mom probably picked up the phone since she's the one who's usually at home), explained who he was and that he wanted to stop by to offer his condolences. Mrs. Twist, happy to finally meet one of Jack's friend, said yes and later told her husband about it, leaving him with no choice but to let Ennis come.

I agree with you opinionista, however it was that Ennis gets in touch with the Twists before he gets there, and he must do this (I think) to know where they live, there wouldn't be any talk beyond this in the calll or postcard.  I guess it is possible that he could just turn up in Lightning Flat and ask people (like Jack did to find Ennis after the divorce), but the way that Ma Twist come out on to the porch suggests an expected visitor.

One question though, when you asked "What about Bobby" I thought: What about "What about Bobby"?  Do you mean that the Twists might leave the ranch to him?  But why would they leave it to Ennis?  Is this assuming that Jack was dead also?  If not they would leave it to Jack surely.  I think I'm confusing myself. ;)
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2006, 09:31:55 am »
I agree with you opinionista, however it was that Ennis gets in touch with the Twists before he gets there, and he must do this (I think) to know where they live, there wouldn't be any talk beyond this in the calll or postcard.  I guess it is possible that he could just turn up in Lightning Flat and ask people (like Jack did to find Ennis after the divorce), but the way that Ma Twist come out on to the porch suggests an expected visitor.

One question though, when you asked "What about Bobby" I thought: What about "What about Bobby"?  Do you mean that the Twists might leave the ranch to him?  But why would they leave it to Ennis?  Is this assuming that Jack was dead also?  If not they would leave it to Jack surely.  I think I'm confusing myself. ;)

I think I got confused too. I thought I read someone suggested if Ennis and Jack were to live together at the Twist's ranch, then Jack dies before Ennis does, or something, afterwards his dad dies and Mrs. Twist ends up leaving the ranch to Ennis. So I figured if that were to happen, i mean if Jack and Ennis would indeed live together at the ranch, Jack would make sure Bobby would come to Lightning Flat sometimes and get to know his grandparents. So then, why Mrs. Twist leave the ranch to Ennis when Bobby was Jack's son?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2006, 09:36:00 am by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline David

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,097
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2006, 09:33:07 am »
Chris:   Well obviously the Twists would want to leave Jack the ranch.   But after Jacks death,  I can see Ma Twist wanting to change the will.    She and Pa Twist have no connection to Lureen or Bobby.   They know that Lureen and her Dad are rich and that Bobby will be well set in his future.

I can definately see Ma Twist asking Ennis if he wanted to come up to live and work on the ranch after the old man dies.    Then she would change the will to leave the place to him after she dies.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2006, 09:51:00 am »
If Ennis and Jack lived together on the ranch, and then Old Man Twist died and then Jack died, Ennis would get the ranch.

In the story as it is, Ennis might conceivably still get the ranch if he kept going back to visit Mrs. Twist. But I doubt he would do that.

But living alone there? I don't know ... That ranch is bleak even by Ennis' standards.


Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2006, 12:16:10 am »
LOL!  Whoa people.  This thread really is getting crazy and funny.  Seriously, re-read like the last 5 posts.  Now no one seems to agree on who's dead or not.  And how did this end up being a discussion about inheritance and changing wills, etc.?
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Well, I guess the serious note in all of this is that if Ennis had lived with Jack he might have been better off financially.  Way back on Brokeback he rejects Jack's offer of financial help, but things really might have been easier for Ennis if he'd swallowed his pride and accepted a little help.  Ennis and Jack seem like very capable cowboys when they're working together.  If Jack could supply Ennis with a ranch to start with, even in bad condition like Lightning Flat seems to be, then it might have been a great thing.  They could at least have been their own bosses.

Ok, back to the question of how Ennis contacted Jack's folks. In the real film.  Well, he hangs up with Lureen before asking the phone number of Jack's parents.  Maybe there's an off chance that Jack and Ennis had exchanged this type of info in the past.  He must have called.  I agree that there's no way he would have shown up out of the blue.  A postcard seems too slow.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2006, 01:30:13 am »
LOL!  Whoa people.  This thread really is getting crazy and funny.  Seriously, re-read like the last 5 posts.  Now no one seems to agree on who's dead or not.  And how did this end up being a discussion about inheritance and changing wills, etc.?

LOL. OK, I think it's time to call in an attorney who specializes in estate law. I don't want to see this wind up in probate.

 :laugh:    :laugh:    :laugh:

As for the other question, I think we've narrowed down the possibilities. He gets their number from directory assistance and calls to say he wants to stop by and pay his respects. He doesn't mention the ashes. He tells them when he'll be there, and goes in the next day or two.

Now would she have had the cherry cake sitting around anyway, or did she make it in anticipation of his visit?

And on a slightly unrelated topic, don't you love how the light shines through Old Man Twist's eyes when he's ranting and gives him that slight crazy-old-geezer look?


Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2006, 06:38:56 am »
LOL!  Whoa people.  This thread really is getting crazy and funny.  Seriously, re-read like the last 5 posts.  Now no one seems to agree on who's dead or not.  And how did this end up being a discussion about inheritance and changing wills, etc.?

LOL! Hysterical  I love it, but I got lost!  And I thought my first reply was crazy! :D

Quote
Ok, back to the question of how Ennis contacted Jack's folks. In the real film.  Well, he hangs up with Lureen before asking the phone number of Jack's parents.  Maybe there's an off chance that Jack and Ennis had exchanged this type of info in the past.  He must have called.  I agree that there's no way he would have shown up out of the blue.  A postcard seems too slow.

Well this assumes that Jack's folks even had a phone.  But if they did, I doubt Ennis would have it already, after all, do we really know that he ever called Jack at his home with Lureen?  I think the book says he did, but in the film it's all postcards isn't it?
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

tiawahcowboy

  • Guest
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2006, 10:34:46 pm »
Somewhere along the line, I think the role of economics would have entered into it. In the Annie Proulx story, the old man has a line that didn't make it into the screenplay: "I can't get no help out here." It might be interesting to see him deal with the conflict between his disdain for his son and his probable dislike of Ennis on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the fact that he suddenly has two healthy, strappin' young fellas to run his ranch for him and maybe turn the place around.

"I can't get no help out here" was a rather interesting thing for John Twist to say.

In the book, Jack father actually said that AFTER  Jack's mother said, "He used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas, and help his daddy on the ranch for a week fix the gates and mow and all. I kept his room like it was when he was a boy and I think he appreciated that. You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."

Mrs. Twist had mentioned to Ennis that Jack did go up to Lightning Flat to the ranch every year and help his daddy; but, his old man talked like Jack never even showed up. Jack apparently worked hard as much as he could to get his father to accept him by working with him and his father still was not pleased.

As far as the story goes, since Jack never worked for his father-in-law when Lureen's old man was alive, it probably was somewhat expensive for Jack to make a trip up to Wyoming every year to help his father. According to what Annie Proulx wrote, it was quite a while, or at least seems to be, after Ennis had Thanksgiving dinner with his daughters, Alma and her grocer husband, before Lureen's father died.

tiawahcowboy

  • Guest
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2006, 10:50:41 pm »
I think that if Jack had actually talked to Ennis about working on the John C. Twist, Sr. Lightning Flat ranch together, they might have gotten away with living in a cabin together on the ranch.

Unlike like what I have read elsewhere in other Brokeback Forums, I believe that other than the fact that they knew Ennis Del Mar was a good friend of their son, Jack, they did not have a clue as to what his exact relationship had been with their son when Ennis showed up. And, I seriously doubt they even had a clue as to what kind of relationship the guys had other than being best friends. Both of the guys in the book were very masculine and certainly were not pretty boys.

I have known many parents who were church goers and they did not have a clue about having a son who was homosexual and even had a boyfriend whom they also met. I have even heard preachers say they could recognize homosexuals and they even believed that there were none in their churches (they didn't have a clue, either).

Aside note here: Cox Cable TV is showing Brokeback Mountain on Pay Per View now. Just saw the commercial.

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2006, 07:43:27 am »
I think that if Jack had actually talked to Ennis about working on the John C. Twist, Sr. Lightning Flat ranch together, they might have gotten away with living in a cabin together on the ranch.

Unlike like what I have read elsewhere in other Brokeback Forums, I believe that other than the fact that they knew Ennis Del Mar was a good friend of their son, Jack, they did not have a clue as to what his exact relationship had been with their son when Ennis showed up. And, I seriously doubt they even had a clue as to what kind of relationship the guys had other than being best friends. Both of the guys in the book were very masculine and certainly were not pretty boys.

I have known many parents who were church goers and they did not have a clue about having a son who was homosexual and even had a boyfriend whom they also met. I have even heard preachers say they could recognize homosexuals and they even believed that there were none in their churches (they didn't have a clue, either).

Aside note here: Cox Cable TV is showing Brokeback Mountain on Pay Per View now. Just saw the commercial.

I assumed they know because Mrs. Twsit offers Ennis to go up to Jack's room and even lets him take the shirts. No person would take a couple of shirts that belonged to a friend as a keepsake, unless something else was going on. That's too personal and intimate. Besides, Jack's dad sort of hints it when rambling on about what Jack used to say. Maybe they didn't know for a fact, but they knew there was something different about Jack. Parents always know this things, it's just that some are in denial.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

tiawahcowboy

  • Guest
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2006, 08:23:09 am »
I assumed they know because Mrs. Twsit offers Ennis to go up to Jack's room and even lets him take the shirts. No person would take a couple of shirts that belonged to a friend as a keepsake, unless something else was going on. That's too personal and intimate. Besides, Jack's dad sort of hints it when rambling on about what Jack used to say. Maybe they didn't know for a fact, but they knew there was something different about Jack. Parents always know this things, it's just that some are in denial.

You have to remember that the taking of the shirts activity is only in the movie, Annie Proulx didn't write how Ennis got the shirts out of the Twist house. When the location of the story changes from Lightning Flat to Signal were Ennis is at the car wash washing the Stoutamire Ranch horse blankets and after he buys a Brokeback Mountain postcard at Higgins' Gift shop, we discover that Ennis has the shirts. The "it" in the quote refers to the postcard.

Quote
When it came -- thirty cents -- he pinned it up in his trailer, brass-headed tack in each corner. Below it he drove a nail and on the nail he hung the wire hanger and the two old shirts suspended from it. He stepped back and looked at the ensemble through a few stinging tears.  "Jack, I swear -- " he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.


In the book, where it states that Ennis discovered the shirts hidden in a tiny jog in the wall in the curtained off makeshift closet, it only says the shirts were hanging from a nail. It does not say they were even on a hanger. I don't think that the "jog" was large enough to conceal a shirt on a hanger.

Quote
At the north end of the closet a tiny jog in the wall made a slight hiding place and here, stiff with long suspension from a nail, hung a shirt.

 

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2006, 09:50:22 am »
Quote
You have to remember that the taking of the shirts activity is only in the movie, Annie Proulx didn't write how Ennis got the shirts out of the Twist house. When the location of the story changes from Lightning Flat to Signal were Ennis is at the car wash washing the Stoutamire Ranch horse blankets and after he buys a Brokeback Mountain postcard at Higgins' Gift shop, we discover that Ennis has the shirts. The "it" in the quote refers to the postcard.

Annie Proulx does write about Jack's mom offering Ennis to go up to his room, and Ennis finding the shirts in the closet. I assumed Jack's parents knew about them from the short story, not from the movie. I think it's pretty much implied Jack's parent suspected there was something different about his son and that Ennis might be part of the reason. They also knew he took the shirts.

From the short story:

Ennis sat at the kitchen table with Jack's father. Jack's mother, stout and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation, said "Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?

"Thank you Ma'am, I'll take a cup of coffee but I can't eat no cake just now.

The oldman sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression...


« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 10:37:14 am by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

tiawahcowboy

  • Guest
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2006, 10:45:53 am »
Annie Proulx does write about Jack's mom offering Ennis to go up to his room, and Ennis finding the shirts in the closet. I assumed Jack's parents knew about them from the short story, not from the movie. I think it's pretty much implied Jack's parent suspected there was something different about his son and that Ennis might be part of the reason. They also knew he took the shirts.

From the short story:

Ennis sat at the kitchen table with Jack's father. Jack's mother, stout and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation, said "Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?

"Thank you Ma'am, I'll take a cup of coffee but I can't eat no cake just now.

The oldman sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression...


Knowing what? How about the whole paragraph where that comes from?

Quote
The old man sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. Ennis recognized in him a not uncommon type with the hard need to be the stud duck in the pond. He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them, took a breath.

I think that Mr. Twist was a person who prejudged people before he even got to know them. I think that if old man had never known whom Ennis Del Mar was and had seen him on the street in Lightning Flat, he would have looked at Ennis with that very same "angry, knowing expression."  More than likely John C. Twist, Sr. looked at most folks that way. He was an angry man all of Jack's life. The only time that the expression, "stud duck," is used in the story is in the above quoted paragraph.

If you had never seen the movie and only read the original short story, do you think that Jack's parents would have known that Ennis was just more than just a friend of Jack's and that Ennis actually took the shirts with his mother's permission?

In the way that Annie Proulx described both Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar, there would be no way that Jack's parents would have even known that their only child had a sexual relationship with Ennis, too. I think that someone else here posted something similar to that effect.

I really think that Jack's father, Mr. John C. Twist, Sr., really did not want to know his son very well and had his mind already made up about the boy from an early age. He might not have really liked children that much in the first place, especially when he both physically abused Jack by using a belt on him, instead of just helping him take better aim at the toilet bowl when Jack had to pee, and, in a way, sexually abused little Jack taking out his own penis and urinating all over Jack as additional punishment.

I say it was sexual abuse because the old man used his penis to punish Jack. That, in my opinion, fits the same category of emotional rape.

While Annie Proulx might say in an interview that Ennis took the shirts with permission, I really believe that her Ennis Del Mar stole his shirt back and took Jack's shirt along with it.

And, considering what kind of coat Ennis wore in the movie and the fact that it was very loose-fitting, he could have taken the shirts by either hiding them under his coat (inside of his shirt) or actually wearing them under his own shirt without Jack's folks even know it.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 10:58:55 am by tiawahcowboy »

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2006, 09:54:39 pm »
Just bumping.
8)
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2006, 10:11:43 pm »
I'm bumping this one because John Twist seems to have become a topic of discussion around here quite a bit lately.
cheers
 :D
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2006, 12:38:20 am »
Clearly you're captured the zeitgeist, because I just finished writing a humongous post about John Twist on Questoinnaires 2 thread.

Should I copy it here?


Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2006, 01:15:20 am »
LOL!  I don't know... you're certainly welcome to copy that other (very excellent) post if you'd like.  The thread you're talking about is the reason I bumped this one.
 ;)
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2006, 11:57:11 am »
So, we've discussed both here and on the old board many amazing aspects of the interaction between Jack's Mom and Ennis.  I'd like to see more discussion about the interaction with the father.  This topic came up in another conversation and I thought it was worth a thread...

If Jack's dream had come true of Ennis coming up to Lightning Flat to live and help run the ranch... Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch?  The idea just makes me smile.  I think things would have been great with Mrs. Twist (a new mother-figure for Ennis the orphan).  But, the idea of Ennis and Mr. Twist clashing on a daily basis is just amazing. 

On a more serious note, in the book it's made pretty clear (and it's hinted in the film) that John Twist was pretty abusive to Jack.  How would Ennis have reacted to seeing Jack berated by his father?


I can't imagine Ennis and Jack on the Twist ranch. There was too much anger in Ennis and Old Man Twist for them to work the same ranch.   And even if Ennis started a confrontation when cause his anger got the better of him at times, he didn't like confrontation.  And you can bet there'd have been confrontations if Ennis were there.

Now, Ennis was damned polite when at the Twist ranch but he was completely ill at ease.  No one likes to be around a hateful person especially if the hate is directed at them and John Twist was a bitter, hateful old bastard, meaner than a rattler-- with more venom than one. Old Man Twist could burn the paint off a pickup truck with the hate he had in his eyes!  Ennis wouldn't take any abuse nor stood for seeing Jack abused either.  Naw, it never would ‘a happened.  That's what I think

I can imagine Ennis and Jack working their own place if times and things had been different, but never the Twist ranch, not no way not no how.   
 
Rayn
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 12:06:34 pm by Rayn »

Offline stevenedel

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 47
    • BBM - The Steven edition
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2006, 01:42:08 pm »
I didn't read all the posts here, so maybe this is redundant, but my overriding impression has always been that John Twist does not hate his son, but merely holds him in contempt. He regards Jack as a wet noodle, a spineless dreamer full of ideas that come to nothing. Interestingly, he shares that view with Lureen, who depicts him as an inconsequential dreamer too (as well as a boozer): "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." Both seem angry because Jack was never any help to them, and I do feel their view, however unsympathetic, carries some weight: both Twist and Lureen spent far more time with Jack than Ennis ever did; both, unlike Ennis, know how Jack (dys?)functioned in everyday life. Even the script says, in the tractor demo scene, that there is an air of boyish inanity about him. It makes me wonder how and even if Jack's dream of a 'sweet life' with Ennis could ever have really worked out.

What I also find interesting is that, in the movie at least, Jack does not seem to hate his father. He goes up to Lightning Flat to help him out occasionally; and he speaks of him with admiration when he tells Ennis John Twist used to be a well-known bull-rider in his day. In fact, Jack is trying to be what his father was, and his main disappointment seems to be that John Twist never taught him the tricks of the trade, nor showed any interest in his son's riding.

(It is very tempting to read all that on a metaphorical level, with bull-riding an obvious simile for gay lovemaking - the implication being that John Twist is gay, too, and angry and bitter because his son actively tried to lead the life he himself never had. In that case, his contempt may well be a cover-up for the reverse - a classically Freudian reaction-formation; and his refusal to let Ennis take the ashes to the mountain in essence amounts to a kind of posthumous revenge: "I had to fit in, so I'll make him fit in, too". ??? Hmm. Maybe that's taking things a little too far...).
If god had wanted people to be oppressed, he would have created bigger elephants. - Loesje

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2006, 05:22:58 pm »
Well put and interesting observations, stevenedel.

BTW, I'd like to mention that there's another thread in which a discussion of Old Man Twist is currently going on that some people might find interesting:

Quote
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3148.0

(The John Twist part begins at the end of the first page and continues through much of the second.)

There's a lot of overlap in the discussion here and the one on the other thread, so I wish we could find a way to get them together. Especially because the John Twist discussion is very interesting, and some people might not find it because it is not directly connected to the main topic of the thread. I'd like to get them all together, but once again I'm stymied by technological complications. But I encourage anyone interested in one to also check out the other.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2006, 07:54:48 pm »
(It is very tempting to read all that on a metaphorical level, with bull-riding an obvious simile for gay lovemaking - the implication being that John Twist is gay, too, and angry and bitter because his son actively tried to lead the life he himself never had. In that case, his contempt may well be a cover-up for the reverse - a classically Freudian reaction-formation; and his refusal to let Ennis take the ashes to the mountain in essence amounts to a kind of posthumous revenge: "I had to fit in, so I'll make him fit in, too". ??? Hmm. Maybe that's taking things a little too far...).

Wow!  I've never thought of that possibility.  Very interesting observation. Yup, the thread latjoreme mentions is very interesting to this line of thinking because the debate over there is over whether or not John Twist is really homophobic or just an asshole in a generalized sense (not specifically or exclusively homophobic).  If a reading can be put forth that John Twist is a super-closeted gay man then the two issues might be very closely linked.

On another note, I do think that Jack strongly dislikes his father.  Maybe "hate" is too strong a word.  But, he seems very down on his father during the early bar chat with Ennis and he sounds almost spiteful when he talks later about his father's rodeo career.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2007, 11:01:09 pm »
Bumping since John Twist, Sr. seems to be coming up frequently in other discussions around here lately.

 :-*
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2007, 01:33:58 am »
Bumping since John Twist, Sr. seems to be coming up frequently in other discussions around here lately.

 :-*

Good idea, Amanda! I had thought of starting a new thread, after participating in a John Twist discussion earlier today. But this is even better.

So let's lay the OMT issues out on the table:

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?

-- Was he homophobic?

-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?

-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?

-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?


Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2007, 02:56:42 am »
-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

No. He had every opportunity to see what was going on and take action or raise an objection while Jack's mother was putting the shirts in the paper bag, and he does not.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2007, 04:15:31 am »
No. He had every opportunity to see what was going on and take action or raise an objection while Jack's mother was putting the shirts in the paper bag, and he does not.

See?  He's not all bad!  ;)

Online Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2007, 01:37:26 pm »
Good idea, Amanda! I had thought of starting a new thread, after participating in a John Twist discussion earlier today. But this is even better.

So let's lay the OMT issues out on the table:

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

Because bullriding was a part of OMT's youth that he had set aside and negated.

Quote
-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

He knew Jack's/Ennis's/Randall's true nature. 'member he started out by saying, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is."

Quote
-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?

You answered your question! Yes, and yes.

Quote
-- Was he homophobic?

I think that's oversimplifying it. Human beings are very fearful generally of anything unique or different and they shrink from anyone who doesn't fit into the pack, which covers most all of us.

Quote
-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?

I think just an instinctive lashing out at Ennis, Jack, and his wife. Blindly doing whatever he could to regain his stud duck status. I think it was mainly a decision to hurt his wife. (My personal agenda's slipping out there!)

Quote
-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?

OMT felt that since he had had to give up his own life to the demands of society, that Jack should too.

Quote
-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

OMT did see the shirt, and let him take it. What he did NOT see was the second shirt encased in the first.

Quote
-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?


Movie OMT is more sympathetic (yeah, that's right!) and complex. Story OMT is described as a stud duck but movie OMT is a defeated man. OMT has Jack's blue eyes in the movie but in the story Ennis can't see Jack in either one of them. In fact, the story leads me to believe that OMT isn't really even Jack's father. But yes I can see movie OMT lashing out in anger at Jack when he was younger.

Thanks for asking these questions, Katherine!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2007, 03:36:11 pm »
OMT did see the shirt, and let him take it. What he did NOT see was the second shirt encased in the first.

Well, yes, but it was Ennis's own shirt inside Jack's shirt. He could hardly have objected to Ennis taking back his own property--even after almost twenty years.  :D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2007, 03:41:47 pm »
OK, so I'm going to make like Lee and answer this questionnaire style!

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?
He was generally disinterested in Jack as well as abusive.  He probably didn't want to spare the time it would have taken to really train him.  I don't think it was due to a concern for Jack's safety or a desire to keep Jack from trying bull-riding due to issues of safety.

-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?
I think he knew about both Ennis and Randall being Jack's lovers.  My guess, just based on what Old Man Twist actually says to Ennis is that Jack wasn't very discrete about this when he was home.  My sense also from the conversation between Ennis and OMT is that OMT was actually holding back some of what he knew.  Sort of torturing Ennis in a teasing way by letting him know *just a little bit* of how much OMT knew about Jack and Ennis and Jack's other life.

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?
I have no idea if he was genuinely grieving Jack.  I don't feel like I have a lot of insight into how the psychology of an abusive parent works.  I don't know if there's a simultaneous capacity for grief/love along side the bitterness/neglect/abuse.  But yes, he seems to have been a mean SOB through and through for whatever reason. 

-- Was he homophobic?
Well, I recall this question has led to some really interesting debates.  I remember that there's a way to read his behavior as actually not homophobic but just hateful and mean-spirited on a general level.  My guess is that he was also misogynist to his wife, unfriendly to his neighbors, etc., etc.   He was probably homophobic on the same level that he was angry with the rest of the world.  I think my answers here are sounding very harsh on Mr. Twist... and a lot of this is fueled by what we know about him from the short story.  Whether or not his abusiveness, etc. is communicated at the same level in the film is an open question.  My guess is that most casual viewers of BBM would just see him as a mean/ grumpy old man.

-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?
I think it was mainly a show of possessiveness.  A bit of the alpha-dog coming out.  The argument that he didn't let Ennis take them because he understood Ennis's lack of commitment to Jack is *really* interesting.  If you take that idea as an entry point into interpreting the whole scene, OMT comes across very differently.  If you see it as OMT punishing Ennis for not fulfilling Jack's hope of working on Lightning Flat together, then OMT's comment about the "other fellow" might be seen as OMT being more invested in Jack's happiness and ability to move-on from Ennis than is probably the case.  While I find this interpretation really fascinating, I think it gives OMT too much credit as far as his genuine interest in Jack and Jack's happiness for its own sake.  Nevermind a concern for Ennis himself.


-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?
Again, I just think this is willful possessiveness and a desire to show Ennis that he didn't have a "legitimate" claim on Jack.

-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?
I think, that while OMT wants to show Ennis who's boss in this scene, he's probably also intimidated by Ennis.  I think we're supposed to understand Ennis as a very intimidating guy to all but the people who love hime/ who he loves.  My guess is that OMT would guage that an attempt to wrestle the shirts away from Ennis might cause the whole situation to escalate into something that would be out of OMT's control. I'm sure Ennis is well above coming to blows with a small old man (especially in front of a nice lady like Ma Twist), but the significance of those shirts and Ennis's fragile state at the time could have turned the scene into something very angry and uncomfortable if OMT had tried to take the shirts.  I think we're also supposed to see that only Mrs. Twist understands what these shirts are.  OMT may not even have a clue that they were in Jack's room or that they mean anything at all.

-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?
I think the filmmakers try very hard to demonstrate that OMT is an un-likeable character.  But, Jack never says anything to really demonstrate to the audience how bad the situation really was for him as a kid.  I think we're supposed to interpret Ma Twist's behavior as fearful in nature when it comes to her husband (and also her behavior I think is meant to demonstrate how skillful she's become at living her live or doing things in a sneaky way to avoid the displeasure or wrath of her husband).  But all this is pretty subtly suggested in the film.  Again, like I said above, in the film OMT just appears spiteful and grumpy.  In the book his abusiveness is demonstrated on a much different level.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Online Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2007, 03:50:53 pm »
Well, yes, but it was Ennis's own shirt inside Jack's shirt. He could hardly have objected to Ennis taking back his own property--even after almost twenty years.  :D

Yes, but OMT wouldn't have known that. I think Ennis shields the shirts from OMT as part of his general paranoia. OMT wouldn't have begrudged him the shirts IMO.

It is a common literary device to have an old man come on at the end of a story and lend special insight. I think story and movie OMT serve this role. This is a pivotal role and scene, IMO, even apart from the room and shirts.

OMT is like Jehovah, the judging and wrathful god and Mary Twist is the forgiving and grace-giving Madonna.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2007, 06:29:53 pm »
Oh, this is a  fun way to do it! We should do a bunch of threads like this about different characters or issues. Anyway:

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

Because above all else, he was a jerk.

-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

He knew Jack was gay ("I know where Brokeback Mountain is") and that J & E were lovers. He knew there was another man in Jack's life, but he didn't know the guy's name. Someone recently said that it's very significant that Randall is never actually named by OMT (and that in fact the naming or not naming of characters is apparently significant throughout the story).

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, actually)?

Both.

-- Was he homophobic?

Not as far as we know. He says nothing that's unequivocally homophobic -- in fact (I know I've said this many times, but here goes again for the official record) doesn't seem to mind that Jack is planning to leave his wife and live with another man, only that he never carried out the plans and therefore didn't lick the ranch into shape. I'm not saying OMT should be elected president of the local PFLAG chapter. But his bitterness and anger just happen to be directed elsewhere, for whatever reason.

It would have been very easy for Annie Proulx and the filmmakers to have OMT something that indicated homophobia, or disapproval of Jack's sexuality. A single word or two inserted into his monologue would do it. For that matter, you would hardly expect him NOT to say something homophobic, given the culture and his age and so forth. But he doesn't, and I think that's not an accident. Especially in view of the way we're set up to assume he IS homophobic, that in fact that was the root of his conflicts with Jack. And it's such an interesting parallel and contrast with Ennis' dad, who Ennis usually speaks so well of that we're led to believe HE is an OK guy, until we find out he isn't.

If neither of Jack's parents are homophobic, it helps explain why Jack is fairly well adjusted about his sexuality. Because again Ennis, in contrast, is not well adjusted largely because of his own dad.

The whole story and movie are about people not always being what they seem or what you'd expect. A non-homophobic OMT would certainly fit that description.



-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?


Hmm ... Well, I really like the theory about denying Ennis the ashes as punishment for letting Jack down -- it would be poignant and kind of romantic. I don't totally buy it, though. I think mainly he just wanted to assert control and be a bastard. After all, if he were that concerned about his son, you'd think he'd at least see that his wishes was carried out, about the ashes I mean, even if it meant scattering them himself.


-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?


IMO, this is the only thing OMT says that could be viewed as a sign of homophobia. "Family plot" carries an echo of "family values" and plot is a synonym for story -- suggesting that, in the end, he's forcing Jack to conform to society's rules, to be in the story involving a traditional family. And when he complains that Jack "thought he was too special," he could be saying he's become high-falutin since he got wealthy, or he could mean special as in atypical -- i.e., gay. So in other words, he could be saying "Jack thought that he could break society's rules by being gay." But in the end, he couldn't.

-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

No, he wasn't up to any agression beyond the verbal. But part of the reason Ennis shelters them is not that he thinks OMT will overpower him and wrest them away, but just to keep them private and pure.

-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?

The peeing scene is unfilmable and would have wrecked the emotional flow of that whole bedroom scene. But beyond that, movie-OMT is simply a more sympathetic character than story-OMT (just as movie-Mrs. Twist is a far more sympathetic character than story-Mrs. Twist).



Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2007, 10:52:44 am »
-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?

Because he was not interested in Jack. He was a cold and mean parent. And person for that matter. A misanthrop. I can't picture him being friendly to anyone


-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?

Yep, he knew Jack was gay. He knew about Ennis and Jack. And he concluded about Jack and that neighbour fella.

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?

I think he was a mean SOB through and through. No, he didn't grieve Jack.

-- Was he homophobic?

I agree completely with Katherine on that. I think it's remarkable that neither Annie nor Ang let him show homophobia, but instead he seems more pi$$ed that it never came to pass (E&J helping in on the ranch).
I think he would have been willing to let Ennis and Jack live together on his ranch. I think he would have settled for some kind of truce because they would have provided the needed help for him.



-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?

I don't buy the theory about OMT punishing Ennis at all. It was a final punishment against Jack. To show who is the boss and that Jack wasn't anything so goddamn special. The stud duck thing.


-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?

In the first place an assertation of control, see above question. Will think some more on this one about family plot and family values. Hm...


-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?

No. OMT did see the shirt. But he decided to ignore it. Like Lee already said, he didn't know about the TWO shirts and didn't sense their importance (but Jack's mother knew). I don't think he was intimidated by Ennis, like Amanda suggested. Not in the state Ennis was in when he visited the Twist ranch. Nothing intimidating about him then. In contrast, his guards were down, he let them see him 'weak', defeated and grieving. Not willingly, but because he simply couldn't act any different.


-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?

Yes, I can imagine movie OMT doing this. I saw the movie first and therefore didn't know about the peeing scene, but I remember I felt he was a mean old bastard even before reading the story.

Offline Toast

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,542
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2007, 11:38:57 am »

-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?
  I think John Twist, probably because Jack was an only child, wanted him to stay on the ranch and make it work.  Encouraging him to ride would have meant the end of his ranch.

-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?
  I think John Twist knew that Jack was not the marryin kind from an early age, and figured - in a practical sense - that two men would be ok for the survival of the ranch.  Old Man Twist expressed disgust - not at Jack having a man come back here with him - but at the fact that Jack's dreams came to nothing.

-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?
  I think John Twist was purely a practical man, and grieves more that the ranch will die, but probably genuinely wants Jack buried here on the ranch that Jack could have saved. 

-- Was he homophobic?
  No, John Twist viewed sexual and spiritual things as separate from the person's ability to be a productive unit in the survival of the community.  He judged a person by his/her ability to be an economic unit.   If Jack had told his father that Ennis and Jack would turn the farm into a landscape painting studio, John might have expressed his anti-artisitic "homophobia".  However I think John's sexual views about hetero or homo habits were purely practical.  Don't ask, don't tell.

-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?
  John Twist sees no meaning in the ashes of Jack, and probably cannot understand the effect on either Ennis or Jack.   He certainly has no perception of Jack being more at rest on the Mountain.

-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?
  John Twist sees no meaning in the ashes of Jack, and probably cannot understand the effect on either Ennis or Jack.   He probably wants Jack to stay here on the ranch which Jack could have kept up and made a go of.

-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?
  These shirts have no meaning to John Twist.  To him they are mere rags that could be used to wipe off some dirty work area.   I think If/when Mrs. Twist died before John, he would have quickly gone out and found a housekeeper/wife with little emotional reaction.   And the new wife could wear Mrs. Twist's previous clothes with no reaction from John Twist.  I think John represents a purely practical human survival mode of life.

-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?
  I think movie Old Man Twist would not have put Jack on the woolies, looked out to Jack and his peeing, or encouraged him to do/be anything other than a hard working ranch hand.  His interest in Jack having a wife would have only been to reproduce and provide another generation to keep the ranch alive, and bringing home a man would have been ok if they worked hard and kept up the ranch. 

Online Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2007, 01:13:51 pm »
Interesting observations, Toast! Did you perchance grow up on a farm??

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2007, 01:30:56 pm »
Yes, but OMT wouldn't have known that. I think Ennis shields the shirts from OMT as part of his general paranoia. OMT wouldn't have begrudged him the shirts IMO.

Sure. I guess I just didn't understand your point in mentioning that he didn't see the second shirt.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Online Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2007, 02:59:20 pm »
There are about 20 points to the second shirt, and they are not mine, but I'll mention a few of them:

The hidden shirt is Ennis's, with his blood on it. He hides his true nature from the world. Jack facilitated this and gave up his life for it.

OMT does not see the hidden shirt and is not aware of it but Mary Twist is. She weighed the shirt in her hand when putting it in the bag and knows that it's too heavy for one shirt.

The shirts are proof of Jack's existence and Jack's love. They are Ennis's shroud of Turin.

As Toast says, OMT sees the shirt just as a rag, just for its practical value. He does not invest in the shirts any respect or worth.

The shirts are the only thing left from their Brokeback Mountain days. In those shirts, Jack's body was bruised by Ennis, and Ennis's blood was shed by Jack. In those shirts they became blood brothers.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2007, 12:38:58 am »
Lee I love the last post  you posted here!
 :-*

And, I'm reviving this because Old Man Twist has again reared his head as a figure of considerable controversy.  He's (at the very least) interesting and invigorating to debate.
 :-\ ;D
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2007, 12:46:42 am »
I'm reviving this because Old Man Twist has again reared his head as a figure of considerable controversy.  He's (at the very least) interesting and invigorating to debate.

YOU BET.  ;D :laugh: ;)

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2007, 12:48:37 am »
Sure enough!
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2007, 07:52:06 pm »
OK, about this topic... Here' s my ten cents worth:

   We all know how Ennis reacted to people who threatened people he loved or him, or pissed him off or otherwise got under his skin.  He focused his anger and got brutal sometimes.  He had a temper even Jack felt early on, eh?  So, I don't think Ennis and John Twist would have lasted very long on the same ranch.  Now, also, Ennis was pretty respectful of people. He addresses Mr.Twist at "Sir" which is from his upbringing and he remained quiet in the face of what was rather callous and hostile treatment from John.  Granted, at the time, Ennis was grief stricken, so how long that respect would have held under every day work situations, is hard to tell, but I'd bet a month or less.

Yes, Mrs. Twist and he would have been OK, but I don't see Ennis doing anything but attempting to be careful and respectful of John Twist at first, but at the first sign of serious abuse or injustice, Ennis would have confronted it and then packed up and left, with or without Jack.  Not that he'd have been afraid. If anything, he'd have been afraid of what might happen if he stayed! 

And yeah, in the book it goes into how John Twist abused Jack in a horrible way, humiliated him and abused him.  We don't know if Jack ever told Ennis about it, but it was there and if the three were living together, it could have very well come up, and again, I don't think Ennis could have put up with it. 

I do think it strange that Jack thought Ennis, and Randall too, could've lived there, coupled together.  In some ways it indicates that Jack may have been rather out of touch with what normal, healthy families are like.  When abuse is all you know and you have nothing to compare it to, you think it's "normal".   John Twist was a nasty, hateful old buzzard as stubborn as the summer is long.  His own wife was afraid of him.  And although I'm not one of them, some Brokies think he may even have hated Jack's orientation enough to have had a hand in his son's own murder.

Personally, I believe Lureen's story about how Jack died, but that's what some Brokies think.

There, that's eleven cents.... I overdid it!    ;)

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Ennis and Old Man Twist
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2008, 03:06:06 pm »
Bump!
8)

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie