Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way

[Brown Eyes]

Anyway, it does strike me how easily the "girls don't fall in love with fun" can be flipped to mirror the other side of the Ennis/Cassie relationship (not only Ennis/Jack). Ennis sure didn't and couldn't fall in love with fun either, even when it was smiling brightly at him and making him dance to jaunty tunes and requesting foot rubs: Cassie *was* a real fun girl when they first met.  

Hey there Mikaela and Katherine! This is a great conversation.  Mikaela I agree with almost all of the points you've been making.  And, I also tend to try to see the relationship between Jack and Ennis in a postive optimistic way.  I think this moment with Cassie and the bluntness of the discussion and the tension during the argument with Jack really may have led Ennis to be ready to make a change finally.   A huge part of the tragedy of the movie is the timing of this...  if only Jack had lived who knows what might have happened for the two of them.  The revelations for Ennis come too late.  People have questioned whether Jack is already dead by the time the pie and Cassie scene comes and I'm increasingly believing that he is.


But, as to the specific quote about "fun"...  like I said in my post above, I do think Ennis fell in love with fun.  Not with Cassie obviously, but with Jack.  I think Jack's sense of fun and light-heartedness was a big part of the attraction for Ennis.  And the importance of their ability to goof around and genuinely have fun together probably shouldn't be under-estimated.  They had such difficult lives that being able to lighten-up and have fun must have been really significant.  I think their ability to have "fun" together also is deeply linked to how much they understand one another.

[Meryl]

But, as to the specific quote about "fun"...  like I said in my post above, I do think Ennis fell in love with fun.  Not with Cassie obviously, but with Jack.  I think Jack's sense of fun and light-heartedness was a big part of the attraction for Ennis.  And the importance of their ability to goof around and genuinely have fun together probably shouldn't be under-estimated.  They had such difficult lives that being able to lighten-up and have fun must have been really significant.  I think their ability to have "fun" together also is deeply linked to how much they understand one another.

I think you're right about fun being a big part of how Ennis fell in love with Jack, Amanda.  Just looking at them playing on the day after the second tent scene was a revelation.  You just knew that this was something new for Ennis and felt his exhilaration.  Then BOOM, we saw Aguirre observing the whole thing and were reminded of the crushing weight of society's judgment. 

So what do you think it was that Cassie did fall in love with?   

[serious crayons]

So what do you think it was that Cassie did fall in love with?   

Meryl, I think the answer to this question is readily obvious from a quick flip through the "Heath Heath Heath" thread. (Or, for that matter, from your avatar! Or mine!) 

Back to the fun issue, I agree, that IS a big part of why Ennis fell in love with Jack.

[nakymaton]

I want to answer the question about "does he love you?", but I think I have to re-watch the scene to do justice to it. But, see, it's at the end of the movie, and I can't just put the DVD in without seeing Jack alive, can I? Or without watching them be happy on the mountain? Or seeing the reunion? Or...? Well, anyway, you can see my dilemma.

Aside from anything to do with Jack, the line reflects a big change in attitudes about marriage -- not just for Ennis, but for society in general. I read an interesting article in Newsweek/MS-NBC the other day (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13006808/site/newsweek/) that followed up on a 1986 Newsweek story about how unmarried women over 30 were doomed to be single for life. Ok, the article isn't really relevant, but something I read elsewhere by the same historian might be: that marriage is changing because it is transforming from a societal expectation (at the extreme end, arranged marriages to cement alliances and so forth) to a pact of love between two adults. (The whole "Defense of Marriage" nonsense, according to the other article by the same author, is trying to go back to an intermediate form of marriage, something halfway between arranged marriages and marriage for love.)

Anyway, the point for Ennis and Alma Jr. is that Ennis married because he was doing what he was expected to do. (Well, we don't know for sure, either in the book or in the movie, but I at least assume that Ennis was engaged to Alma because somebody - family or church or mutual acquaintance - set them up, and not because Ennis thought he was in love with Alma.) But he hopes that his daughter is marrying for other reasons. (And, as a friend pointed out to me a while back, he also might be making sure that his daughter's fiance falls in love with women and not men... )

I think the echoes of the relationship with Jack ("You're nineteen years old..." "Does he love you?") are significant too, though.

I think Mikaela and tiawahcowboy did a great job of summing up what was probably going through Ennis's head during "I just can't stand this no more..."

(Now. Alma Jr. + shirts, or happy times on the mountain...? *flips coin* )

[nakymaton]

(Hey, at least I'm not quoting myself, even if I'm posting after myself... )

Ok. *wipes away tears* Tell you what, that scene is even harder to take in isolation than it is at the end of the movie, I think.

Ennis is awkward and - I don't know, lonely looking maybe? - when Jr. spills out all the wedding plans. He looks more bereft than protective. And then after he asks "Does he love you?", Ennis looks to his right and there's a silence filled only by the sound of - yeah, you guessed it - wind. And then Ennis looks so lonely as he makes his usual sad excuses. Waaah.        He really is cut off and alone, isn't he?

I don't know if it's a sign that Ennis has concluded that love is what is important. But it sure looks to me like he's missing Jack so much he can hardly stand it.     

And in that same scene... "If you don't got nothin', then you don't need nothin'." (Screenplay line; don't make me go back and check the scene on the DVD. I've got to go off to my Happy Place and watch the "cowboys are all f***-ups" scene or something.) Anyway, wanna pick apart that one?

[Brown Eyes]

That's a great description of the scene, nakymaton!  Your description is making me want to cry.
 

I think that Ennis's long pause with his head turned to the side after the 'does he love you' question is a great parallel to Jack's long pause in the "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" scene.  For a long time I was convinced that one of the most straightforward ways that  "Jack, I swear..." could be filled-in is with "Jack, I swear sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  And, I still think this is a really convincing interpretation.  But there are obviously a billion other ways to see this scene.  It seems crucial that the sentence remain open ended.

I think there are so many complicated aspects to Ennis's reaction to Alma's announcement that the situation is daunting to tackle. 

Another factor in Ennis's reaction to Alma's wedding announcement (some of these ideas are from old threads on TOB, that always seemed important) is Ennis recognizing the similarities and differences between himself at 19 and Alma at 19. At 19 they were/ are both in love. But, Alma can announce her love for Kurt openly and immediately with none of the concerns that have burdened Ennis his whole life.  The love between Alma and Kurt will also be celebrated openly with weddings, parties and the support of friends and family.  Obviously, all contrasting the way Ennis and Jack conducted their love affair.  Katherine has noted several times that the issue of "honoring" their love in terms of recognizing it and building a commitment to one another is a really interesting struggle between Jack and Ennis.  So maybe this is part of the "I swear" moment too... Ennis finally "honoring" his love for Jack in a kind of private ritual.

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, I would love to talk about "If you don't got nothin' you don't need nothin'" (one of my favorite lines), just not tonite. Can we sleep on it and tackle it in the a.m.?

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, I would love to talk about "If you don't got nothin' you don't need nothin'" (one of my favorite lines), just not tonite. Can we sleep on it and tackle it in the a.m.?

Sure enough.  I'm hoping to grab 40 winks myself soon.
 

[Front-Ranger]

Bedroll's big enough, if u get to hammerin'.

[Mikaela]

But, as to the specific quote about "fun"...  like I said in my post above, I do think Ennis fell in love with fun.  Not with Cassie obviously, but with Jack. 

I couldn't agree more, of course. The flip side extends only as far as the fact that not only don't girls fall in love with fun, but Ennis doesn't fall in love with fun *girls*.   

It seems Jack is the most and first fun to come his way in a long time, probably in his entire life, - and Jack is working on the fun it very deliberately and diligently too, to get Ennis out of his shell. Like everyone here I love love love those few happy scenes on the mountain like crazy. When Ennis finally *smiles*..... Oh God, there's no emoticon here sufficient for that!

then after he asks "Does he love you?", Ennis looks to his right and there's a silence filled only by the sound of - yeah, you guessed it - wind. And then Ennis looks so lonely ...

This to me is the most poignant and sad part of the entire Ennis/Alma Jr. conversation, because of Ennis's expression there, as his head is turned away and as he turns back towards his daughter. He's got "missing Jack" written all over his features so eloquently it still makes me catch my breath after my umpteenth viewing. 


I like the point you make about changes in attitudes in society in general. That's exactly where my previous post about not necessarily managing to read the same as some other Brokaholics -  ie. one overriding influence only - into the Ennis/Alma Jr. exchange comes in.

In my view, Ennis is conforming to society's requirements in asking if Kurt loves her. It's not an otherwise unheard-of thing for a father to ask, not something that only his love for Jack would make him think of. Ennis had a lonely life, but he didn't live outside of cultural influences - I bet he went with Cassie to see a sappy movie now and then (The early script has them watching one of the Star Wars films, has it not?) And he has got a TV set....

I think culture in general demanded that one of the things he as a father *should* be interested in making sure of, was the "does he love you part" - in addition to finding out if the guy has a job and can provide for a family with his financial situation. But Ennis has already inadvertedly touched on that latter part since he's been told Kurt works, has a decent car, and is a roughneck.

That doesn't diminish the importance of his question, neither the fact that the taciturn and emotionally restrained Ennis actually asks it at all (with the pain it gives, the thoughts of Jack), nor its obvious importance to Alma Jr., who is extremely touched, and seems to perhaps have expected objections rather than him asking her something personal about love.

But I think that in asking his daughter whether her fiancee loves her, and likewise also in agreeing to actually attend her wedding, Ennis is helped along in his actions by the fact that in both matters he's conforming to society's expectations, - not going against them like his living with Jack would have been. Although doing both those things still takes a lot for Ennis to do - asking his daughter such a personal question, even thinking to ask it; - and attending the wedding; being in the spotlight of the guests there, meeting Alma.....  there's a combination of personal and public influences make him behave the way he does. It's not *only* the impact of loving and losing Jack, though that obviously plays a significant part.

I've previously read a lot of discussions where society's expectations of Ennis in that scene haven't been taken into account at all. In my view they do play a part -  his perception of society's expectations has shaped his entire adult life to crippling effect, after all - to some extent they always will. Only this time, society's expectations actually help him along in re-connecting emotionally with a person he loves. It's a bittersweet contrast to his the entire clandestine relationship with Jack. Also a small and oblique reminder about what *could* have been, if their society had only had other norms for "two guys living together".....

"If you don't got nothin', then you don't need nothin'."

Oh yes! I was thinking about proposing that one, but there's so much to say.......where to even begin? I'll be looking forward to the posts on this.    Reading the loss of Jack into it makes it absolutely heartbreaking - but what does it mean to the listener, to Alma Jr? What does she think he's saying?