Why the Lie?

[Brown Eyes]

So, this is a relatively straight forward question.  Why does Ennis lie to Alma about how he knows Jack?  When she asks whether they had cowboy-ed together (by the way I love the use of the word cowboy as a verb!) he says, no, that they were fishing buddies.  Why doesn't he want her to know they had worked together?  I truly don't understand the reasoning here.

[nakymaton]

I've wondered this, too. Maybe it's partly that Ennis occasionally says things that don't quite make sense when he's flustered and thinking about Jack. ("He's from Texas." "Texans don't drink coffee?") It makes some sense that he tells Alma that Jack rodeos, but I'm not sure why he thinks of fishing. (It certainly sets up the later trips, but I don't quite see why Ennis thinks of it in the first place.)

On the other hand, there's the whole water/love metaphor thing...? (And passion/rodeo, maybe? If you really stretch and squint at it?)

[Aussie Chris]

Hmmm, I don't know.  At first I thought (flippantly): because it was in the script!  I wasn't actually going to say that but I couldn't think of a good alternative.  Seems somewhat 'clever' of Ennis to predict the metaphor that he was to use for his trysts with Jack over the next 16 years.  He could just as easily said "an old work buddy" and no one would have been the wiser, but "fishing" as a metaphor would not have come up and we'd need something else in the script to introduce it.  My thought, it was just a short-cut in the script to establish the metaphor.  Happy to be wrong about that though...

[Brown Eyes]

Well, even if they were cowboys together they could still be buddies.  And it would still make sense that they might want to hang out and go fishing, etc. in the future.   Does Ennis worry that there is a perception that two cowboys up alone on a mountain might have gotten "too" cozy?  Is he that worried about perceptions?

[Meryl]

In thinking about this, I decided it makes sense that Ennis wants to distance Alma as much as possible from Jack because he felt guilty/confused about the relationship from the very beginning.  As he and Jack got closer and closer to each other on the mountain, wouldn't Ennis have been thinking about Alma and wondering what it was going to be like living and making love with her?  When he returned to her after that summer, he probably said very little about Jack because he felt he had done something with him that she would most definitely have been hurt by, had she known.

Over the years before Jack reappeared, Ennis kept him as his guilty secret, "wringing it out" in private to feel close to him again.  When the postcard came, probably all sorts of alarm bells went off in Ennis's subconscious.  God forbid Alma should get an inkling of what he and Jack had been to each other while working together for those months.  The lie popped out as a matter of course.

[serious crayons]

Over the years before Jack reappeared, Ennis kept him as his guilty secret, "wringing it out" in private to feel close to him again.  When the postcard came, probably all sorts of alarm bells went off in Ennis's subconcious.  God forbid Alma should get an inkling of what he and Jack had been to each other while working together for those months.  The lie popped out as a matter of course.

Good timing, Amanda -- I was particularly wondering about this question as I watched the DVD this very day. My opinion is pretty close to Meryl's. I think he lies reflexively, because he wants to keep that time private and special and as separate from Alma as he can. In response to her question he easily could have said, "We didn't cowboy together, but we did herd sheep together [if he wanted to be technical]one summer." Well, next she might have asked where and when, and maybe what that was like, and who knows what questions after that. Sure, he could have given perfectly innocuous answers the whole way. But imagine him even having to say the word "Brokeback" to her, given all he must associate with that word. She would never guess anything from it, but it would feel like a violation to him. (The only time he ever does say it to anyone, Lureen immediately grasps its significance.) He keeps the information to himself less to avoid hurting her or to let something slip about his sexuality than to prevent Alma's awareness from intruding on his memories of that beautiful sacrosanct time.

I'm so glad you asked this, Amanda, because as usual it adds to even deeper appreciation of his feelings.

On a slightly different but related topic, today when I watched the DVD I paid extra extra close attention to the bedroom scene. Of course I knew Ennis was thinking about Jack in this scene from the very first time I watched, (though my being clued in to his doing the same in the tar spreading and drive-in movie scenes came much later). And of course we've talked about the significance of Alma using the word "lonely" and the wind howling immediately afterward. But today I scooted right up by the screen and watched that moment twice. And it's so amazing how you see Ennis' face change -- he starts out just vaguely pensive, possibly thinking generally about Jack, then at the word 'lonely" he freezes, looking off to the side (as he often does when thinking about Jack), not just pensive now but very subtly desolate, as if the word reminds him of the possibility that he'll never see Jack again and will always be lonely for him. He pauses for a couple of long sad moments ... then he swallows as if gathering his resolve to do his husbandly duty, turns to Alma and says "aint so lonely now, is it?"

Wow.

[Aussie Chris]

though my being clued in to his doing the same in the tar spreading and drive-in movie scenes came much later

Huh?  Was there a discussion on this that I missed?  How is it that we can tell Ennis is thinking of Jack while spreading tar and at the drive-in?  I just about agree with everything you see in the film, but this one (particularly the drive-in) escapes me.  Was it on TOB?

[serious crayons]

Yes, these concepts are from TOB. Sorry to talk in shorthand, though I don't want to go over things if people are already familiar with them. The threads were long, but as briefly as possible here are some of the main points:

Tar-spreading scene: The guy Ennis is working with reminds Ennis in a negative way of Jack (he's neither cute nor fun), and also of how Ennis himself could very well wind up in 20 years. Ennis is wearing a blue plaid shirt (Jack's colors). The big clue is the other guy says something like "the wife said I would break my back working blah blah blah" and it's those words that trigger Ennis to stand up and look wistfully off to one side into the distance, as he always does when thinking of Jack.

Drive-in scene: The woman in the movie is emerging from a trailer, a reminder of Aguirre's trailer. There was some talk of what the actual movie is onscreen, which I missed, though I think that may be significant, too. (Starboardlight, if you read this, weren't you in on that discussion?) And Alma grabs Ennis' hand and presses it to her pregnant belly in a way reminiscent of Jack's grabbing Ennis' hand in TS1.

[Penthesilea]

In thinking about this, I decided it makes sense that Ennis wants to distance Alma as much as possible from Jack

I think Meryl is right here. For answering Amanda's question it's important that Ennis and Alma had known each other before Ennis met Jack. They were even close enough to be engaged (however this happened and whose descicion it was).
So it would have been normal/usual to share at least some stories about what happened during the months they were apart. Even for taciturn Ennis. I'm sure Alma asked him about it. And it would have been natural to tell your fiancee about your coworker/compagnion, especially if you refer to him later as a friend. But Ennis didn't do this.
So Brokeback dropped out as possible explanation for who Jack was.

Right in this moment I have an idea: Maybe the rodeo answer just slipped out before Ennis thought about it (he was excited about the postcard). Then he had to find another explanation (other than cowboy-ing) from where he knew Jack, and quickly. This is what the screenplay says:

Alma: "Is he somebody you cowboy'ed with?"
Ennis stares at the postcard.
Ennis: "Jack rodeos, mostly.
          (pause)
          We was fishing buddies..."

Notice the pause. It fits to my explanation, doesn't it? Ennis blabbered out about Jack and rodeo before he began to think. Rare for Ennis, to speak without thinking before. But it shows us how excited, delighted and agitated he was about the postcard.

[Aussie Chris]

Notice the pause. It fits to my explanation, doesn't it? Ennis blabbered out about Jack and rodeo before he began to think. Rare for Ennis, to speak without thinking before. But it shows us how excited, delighted and agitated he was about the postcard.

I think you maybe right Penthesilea, about the faux paus I mean.  If I were to follow your train of thought, Ennis is clearly listening to Jack's voice in his head as he reads and re-reads the postcard.  The "slip" about Jack rodeoing links in with "my dady thought that rodeo cowboys were all f*ck-ups".  Then he snaps two (after a pause) and throws in "fishing buddies" to cover it.

[opinionista]

It's funny because, apparently, Jack doesn't tell Lureen either, except that is his favorite place. He never says what he did there or where it was. Obviously Jack wasn't goint to tell her about all the sex he had up there with Ennis, but could've told her about the job herding sheep, no? I don't understand either why the lie.

[Brown Eyes]

Tar-spreading scene: The guy Ennis is working with reminds Ennis in a negative way of Jack (he's neither cute nor fun), and also of how Ennis himself could very well wind up in 20 years. Ennis is wearing a blue plaid shirt (Jack's colors). The big clue is the other guy says something like "the wife said I would break my back working blah blah blah" and it's those words that trigger Ennis to stand up and look wistfully off to one side into the distance, as he always does when thinking of Jack.

WOW!!!  I love this.  It's something I've never considered before either.  I missed and/or forgot about this discussion from the old board too.  By the way, the "he's neither cute nor fun" comment just made me laugh so hard that my cat woke up from her nap and looked at me with great alarm.

Penthesilea, this is also brilliant.  It answers the question really well.

So it would have been normal/usual to share at least some stories about what happened during the months they were apart. Even for taciturn Ennis. I'm sure Alma asked him about it. And it would have been natural to tell your fiancee about your coworker/compagnion, especially if you refer to him later as a friend. But Ennis didn't do this.
So Brokeback dropped out as possible explanation for who Jack was.

It is really interesting that both Ennis and Jack never mentioned the fact that they were on Brokeback together that summer to there respective wives.  Maybe this has something to do with Ang Lee's statement that he sees their relationship as "something private and precious and they cannot articulate..."  Primarily here both Ennis and Jack (on their own) make gestures to keep the circumstances of their summer as private as possible to preserve the precious feeling about it. (Try saying the last half of that sentence 10 times fast. lol).  So, clearly they can't articulate anything about this for a huge number of reasons (either to their wives or in their own heads often)... and all of this emerges in the form of Ennis's little lie. "We were fishing buddies."  It's amazing how something so seemingly simple can become sooo complex.

Awesome contributions to this thread everybody!  Thanks!

[Penthesilea]

Thanks for liking my idea, Amanda.

Maybe this has something to do with Ang Lee's statement that he sees their relationship as "something private and precious and they cannot articulate..." 

Yep. And I hear the words from the trailer: . "It was a friendship.......that became a secret...."
Not only their relationship became a secret, but the whole summer.

So secret they didn't want anybody to know the least tiny bit about that summer.
I guess for more than one reason:
- to avoid further questions ("How was your coworker? Was he a nice guy? Did he share work equitable with you? Where's he from? blah, blah, blah...)
- out of paranoia (at least Ennis, the guy who asks Jack 20 years later: "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town and someone looks at you, suspicious... like he knows.")
- to keep those memories precious and all by themselves (what Ang Lee said, and this is certainly a BIG reason)
- to be able to pretend to themselves that nothing had happened respectively trying to forget about it

And I don't think the last two aspects are contradictory. Well they are, but people's feelings are contradictory, too.

[serious crayons]

WOW!!!  I love this.  It's something I've never considered before either.  I missed and/or forgot about this discussion from the old board too.  By the way, the "he's neither cute nor fun" comment just made me laugh so hard that my cat woke up from her nap and looked at me with great alarm.

I love it too, and since for once I can actually remember someone to credit, let me add that it was Casey Cornelius' thread. (I think starboardlight may have participated also.) I was so blown away by it because it was still fairly early in my Brokeback career. Before that, I had seen that tar-spreading scene as pretty much just a quick way to what kind of jobs Ennis was taking over the years. And when they started pointing to all the little clues about what this or that meant, I felt like a whole new world was opening up (and like my time on the board should qualify me for a graduate degree in film studies!).

By the way, I remember one funny line from that discussion. This time I can't remember who said it (maybe jshane?) but anyway. Someone said Ennis was probably thinking about Jack when he stared off into the distance, and the other person said, "Are you kidding? I'M thinking about Jack when I stare off into the distance. There's no doubt he is!"

[tiawahcowboy]

When she mentioned the post card (in the movie), Alma asked Ennis this about Jack, "Is he somebody you cowboyed with or what?

While he was looking at the post card, Ennis answered, "No, Jack, he rodeos, mostly. We was fishin' buddies!"

In the west, to "cowboy" is also a verb, meaning to "do the work of a cowboy."

I think that it could have been possible that Ennis never told Alma that he had herded sheep on Brokeback Mountain in the summer of 1964.

One has to consider the fact that in the West, including Wyoming (and also in the case of screenplay writer Larry McMurtry's home state of Texas), a "real" cowboy would never admit that he had ever worked with sheep in the first place.

I would say that Ennis is sort of a double-thinker (or did double-speak), he added the part about "fishin' buddies" since Alma probably knew that Ennis had participated in rodeos; because he certainly would not say, "We was sheep herdin' buddies!"

[David]

Considering that Ennis kept Jack a secret from Alma until the postcard arrived,  I'd have thought Ennis would have had another panic attack after seeing that postcard!   He probably walked into the bathroom and threw up he was so nervous!   

Remember, in the story he tells Jack:" it took a year for me to figure out I shouldn't have let you out of my sight".    I wish he said that in the movie because it really tells us that he now knew Jack was his true love.  Alma was secondary.

[tiawahcowboy]

I would say the reason that Ennis rushed out of the kitchen was to go change out of his work clothes. He not only changed his shirt, he switch cowboy hats. When drove in from work, he was wearing a felt hat; but, at the post office in the very next scene, he was wearing a straw cowboy hat, sort of a "Shady Brady" style.

[Penthesilea]

I'd have thought Ennis would have had another panic attack after seeing that postcard!   He probably walked into the bathroom and threw up he was so nervous!   

  I can't help but laugh. I've read someone else suggesting Ennis was heading for the bathroom for doing something comletely different. Something way more enjoyable than throwing up  "wrang it out", ya know 

Please don't get me wrong. I don't laugh neither about your idea nor about the other one. But about the fact that both ideas about what Ennis might do are completly opposite.
Okay, it's late here and I'm a bit goofy: I imagine Ennis standing in the bathroom, singing a counting-out rhyme to find his descicion what to do  Okay, maybe I'm more than a bit goofy. Time to go to bed: N8, folks!

[tiawahcowboy]

I can't help but laugh. I've read someone else suggesting Ennis was heading for the bathroom for doing something comletely different. Something way more enjoyable than throwing up  "wrang it out", ya know 

Please don't get me wrong. I don't laugh neither about your idea nor about the other one. But about the fact that both ideas about what Ennis might do are completly opposite.
Okay, it's late here and I'm a bit goofy: I imagine Ennis standing in the bathroom, singing a counting-out rhyme to find his descicion what to do  Okay, maybe I'm more than a bit goofy. Time to go to bed: N8, folks!

To "wring" and to "wring out" (or as Ennis says in past tense "wrang it out)," is the act of trying squeeze out an answer to why something happens which seems to have no answer. The expression has no connection with masturbation.

http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861714245/wring.html

wring [ ring ]


transitive verb  (past wrung [ rung ], past participle wrung, present participle wring·ing, 3rd person present singular wrings)
 
Definition:
 
1. twist and compress something: to twist and compress something in order to force liquid out of it
Wring the towel out and hang it up to dry.

 
2. force out liquid by twisting: to force liquid out of something by twisting and compressing it

 
3. extract something with difficulty: to extract something from somebody with great difficulty
finally managed to wring an answer out of him

 
4. twist something forcibly and painfully: to twist something such as an animal's neck forcefully, usually causing pain or death

 
5. cause distress: to cause somebody emotional pain and distress

 

noun  (plural wrings [ rung ])
 
Definition:
 
twist given to wet material: a twist or squeeze given to wet material in order to force out water or other liquid

 
[ Old English wringen < Germanic]

[delalluvia]

To "wring" and to "wring out" (or as Ennis says in past tense "wrang it out)," is the act of trying squeeze out an answer to why something happens which seems to have no answer. The expression has no connection with masturbation.

http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861714245/wring.html

wring [ ring ]
 
Definition:
 
1. twist and compress something: to twist and compress something in order to force liquid out of it

This definition most certainly can be analogous to masturbation.  Whether the word is supposed to mean it or not.  Especially as in 1962, Alma was still doing laundry, where you would 'wring out' the laundry to squeeze out the excess water.  An action Ennis is most certainly familiar with.

[David]

Oh most definately it was referring to Masturbating.    Think of how the word was used in the book.   "I must have wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you".

Doesn't everyone fantasize about their dream partner when playing with themselves? 

[Brown Eyes]

Oh wow, this conversation is taking an interesting turn. 

Well, the thing that struck me in that list of definitions is how often the word twist is used in relation to the words wring/ wrang.  One more indication of what's on Ennis's mind...


And I totally agree with David.  This may be one of the few concepts in the book that isn't ambiguous... at least in how I read it.

[welliwont]

Huh?  Was there a discussion on this that I missed?  How is it that we can tell Ennis is thinking of Jack while spreading tar and at the drive-in?  I just about agree with everything you see in the film, but this one (particularly the drive-in) escapes me.  Was it on TOB?

Hey Chris:  What is TOB?  The Other Board??  please confirm or explain...  Here is one more explanation that I read on IMDb two days ago:  The boy in the film is telling the pretty little blonde girl that it is illegal to park their trailer, ie:  camp on the beach, and that is reminiscent of the illegal camping that Aguirre insisted that the herder do up on Brokeback.  Do you think that is too obscure?

The reason we believe that Ennis is thinking of Jack when he is tarring, is who in their right mind would not be reminiscing and pining for last summer's peaceful idylic job up with his buddy Jack?  Versus being teamed up with *such* a blabbermouth, man!   --  if I had to listen to him all day!  And plus the fact the the guy says "broke back".

[nakymaton]

I think a lot of the phrases in the story have multiple meanings, just like a lot of lines in the movie do. So, yeah, "wrang it out" and "rolled his own" and "stemmed the rose" had particular meanings in colloquial Wyoming speech in the 60's, but in the context of the story, in the hotel room that "stank of semen," there's sex in just about everything those guys say.

[David]

I think a lot of the phrases in the story have multiple meanings, just like a lot of lines in the movie do. So, yeah, "wrang it out" and "rolled his own" and "stemmed the rose" had particular meanings in colloquial Wyoming speech in the 60's, but in the context of the story, in the hotel room that "stank of semen," there's sex in just about everything those guys say.

Now see,  I interpeted the "Roll your own" comment to mean picking up a cowboy.

Ennis says :"How about you?"

Jacks replies:" I've been riding the bulls, not rolling my own".

So I figure he means he's been too busy riding real bulls in the rodeo, not in the the bars trying to pick up a bull (cowboy) of his own!    Which we know is a lie, as he doesn't want to make Ennis jealous.


Just like when Jack tries to pickup the Rodeo clown in the bar.   The bartender sees Jack get rejected.  So when the Bartender then says :" Ever try Calf roping?"  I take that he is telling Jack "try sticking to picking up girls"   

[nakymaton]

*pulls out book to make sure I've got the quote right*

Ok, here it is:

"...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"

"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.

I interpreted both "wrang it out" and "rolling his own" to refer to masturbating, and "riding more than bulls" to mean that story-Jack had had sex with other men during those four years. (Movie-Jack is a different case; from the Jimbo incident, I got the impression that movie-Jack tried to pick up other men, but didn't have any luck, and ended up with Lureen after he had gotten desperately lonely for contact with another person.)

("Rolling his own" also refers to making his own cigarettes, right? But that meaning doesn't make much sense in context.)

[tiawahcowboy]

This definition most certainly can be analogous to masturbation.  Whether the word is supposed to mean it or not.  Especially as in 1962, Alma was still doing laundry, where you would 'wring out' the laundry to squeeze out the excess water.  An action Ennis is most certainly familiar with.

Well, people with dirty minds can make almost any word or phrase in the English language be related to sexual activity. Alma was rubbing the dirt off of the laundry in the sink. Well, "rub off" is another euphemism for "masturbation, too.

Alma does not even come into the Brokeback Mountain story until 1963 and when she is using the washboard in her kitchen sink in the movie, Ennis is working as a wrangler and/or for the Wyoming Highway department. Both of their daughters have born.

But, in the book, Ennis worked for the Highway department on weekdays and as a wrangler on weekend days AFTER they moved to Riverton and the 2nd daughter was born in Riverton.

[Aussie Chris]

Well, people with dirty minds can make almost any word or phrase in the English language be related to sexual activity. Alma was rubbing the dirt off of the laundry in the sink. Well, "rub off" is another euphemism for "masturbation, too.

I don't agree with this at all.  These characters were in a sexual love affair, I don't see it as having a dirty mind to perceive that their dialogue alluded to sex also.  I mean, to tell your post-coital lover that you "wrung it out about a 100 times" thinking about him: if that's not about masturbation, then I must have the mind of a gutter rat!  Peace.

[tiawahcowboy]

I don't agree with this at all.  These characters were in a sexual love affair, I don't see it as having a dirty mind to perceive that their dialogue alluded to sex also.  I mean, to tell your post-coital lover that you "wrung it out about a 100 times" thinking about him: if that's not about masturbation, then I must have the mind of a gutter rat!  Peace.

Well, as a person who lives on the other side of the world, Aussie Chris, you can disagree or agree with anything about the meaning of originally American coined words and expressions in the Western US States. 

I just think that Ennis Del Mar just thought all the sex he had with Jack up on Brokeback Mountain, which he enjoyed, and his wringing it out a hundred times might have been his remembrance of each of those times and he tried at least a hundred times to attempt to figure out, aka wring out, why he liked doin' it with Jack.

I have met people in real life who claimed to be straight; but, they said they just didn't understand why they liked to have, and wanted to have, sex with certain guys.

[delalluvia]

Well, people with dirty minds can make almost any word or phrase in the English language be related to sexual activity. Alma was rubbing the dirt off of the laundry in the sink. Well, "rub off" is another euphemism for "masturbation, too.

Um, you don't have to have a 'dirty mind' (whatever kind of moralistic statement that is  ,) but just be aware that people use a great deal of euphemisms when speaking about certain things - hence 'choking the chicken/spanking the monkey/getting a woody/being with child' etc.

Alma does not even come into the Brokeback Mountain story until 1963 and when she is using the washboard in her kitchen sink in the movie, Ennis is working as a wrangler and/or for the Wyoming Highway department. Both of their daughters have born.

Doesn't matter, Ennis was living with his sister and brother for a long time in poverty circumstances, he most certainly knew how laundry was done back then and you can see Jack doing the same thing by the river up on the mountain when he's doing their laundry.

Not sure what your point is. 

It's a euphemism and quite an obvious one rather than a high school drop out imagining the word of 'wrang' as him thinking about a situation that has no solution.

[tiawahcowboy]

Since I am a country feller and have some education beyond high school, I have heard people use the expression "wrang it out" when they were trying to think really hard to figure out why something happened.

Also, a similar expression about serious thinking, a rural man would say, "I been sittin' here studyin' about that." Was he actually studying something that had been in print? No, he had been thinking really hard about a certain subject.

[delalluvia]

Since I am a country feller and have some education beyond high school, I have heard people use the expression "wrang it out" when they were trying to think really hard to figure out why something happened.

Also, a similar expression about serious thinking, a rural man would say, "I been sittin' here studyin' about that." Was he actually studying something that had been in print? No, he had been thinking really hard about a certain subject.

Well, I think the context in which Ennis says this pretty much decides it.

From the short story:

Ennis:  I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you.

The context is Ennis talking about having sex with another man ('doin it' another euphemism).

[tiawahcowboy]

Well, I think the context in which Ennis says this pretty much decides it.

From the short story:

Ennis:  I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you.

The context is Ennis talking about having sex with another man ('doin it' another euphemism).

You are correct on that part about the "doin in," that is. And the context of "wrang it out" has to do with Ennis's thinking about doin' it with Jack.

So, there's no need to assume that Ennis pulled "IT" out of his pants and played with "IT."

The expression "to wring (it) out" has to do with difficult thinking about something and no connection with self-manipulation at all.

[delalluvia]

You are correct on that part about the "doin in," that is. And the context of "wrang it out" has to do with Ennis's thinking about doin' it with Jack.

A guy is thinking about having sex with someone.  Guys do it quite often.  They also do it almost 100% of the time while masturbating.  So there that is.

So, there's no need to assume that Ennis pulled "IT" out of his pants and played with "IT."

Well, there's every need since Ennis is talking about having sex with men, and since Jack isn't there, the next best thing for Ennis while thinking about doin' it with Jack is... [shrugs]  Pretty clear to me.

The expression "to wring (it) out" has to do with difficult thinking about something and no connection with self-manipulation at all.

Tia you keep talking like you're an authority and the last word on what that expression means.  There are other uses for that expression.

[tiawahcowboy]

A guy is thinking about having sex with someone.  Guys do it quite often.  They also do it almost 100% of the time while masturbating.  So there that is.
 

Well, there's every need since Ennis is talking about having sex with men, and since Jack isn't there, the next best thing for Ennis while thinking about doin' it with Jack is... [shrugs]  Pretty clear to me.

Tia you keep talking like you're an authority and the last word on what that expression means.  There are other uses for that expression.

Tia is not short for "Tiawah," place in Rogers County, Oklahoma! Since I am a man and not a woman, I ought to know a little bit more about how guys think and what they do more than you do, ma'am!

One does not have to masturbate when one thinks about having had memorable sex with his friend, nor does he have to masturbate while trying to figure out why the only person he can imagine having sex with is that friend.

[delalluvia]

Tia is not short for "Tiawah," place in Rogers County, Oklahoma!

Tia is the way I shorten it. 

Since I am a man and not a woman, I ought to know a little bit more about how guys think and what they do more than you do, ma'am!

Well, sure, but that doesn't make you an authority on how ALL men think, now does it?

One does not have to masturbate when one thinks about having had memorable sex with his friend, nor does he have to masturbate while trying to figure out why the only person he can imagine having sex with is that friend.

No, he doesn't have to, but he most certainly could and very likely did.

[starboardlight]

I love it too, and since for once I can actually remember someone to credit, let me add that it was Casey Cornelius' thread. (I think starboardlight may have participated also.) I was so blown away by it because it was still fairly early in my Brokeback career. Before that, I had seen that tar-spreading scene as pretty much just a quick way to what kind of jobs Ennis was taking over the years. And when they started pointing to all the little clues about what this or that meant, I felt like a whole new world was opening up (and like my time on the board should qualify me for a graduate degree in film studies!).

By the way, I remember one funny line from that discussion. This time I can't remember who said it (maybe jshane?) but anyway. Someone said Ennis was probably thinking about Jack when he stared off into the distance, and the other person said, "Are you kidding? I'M thinking about Jack when I stare off into the distance. There's no doubt he is!"

yeah, Casey started some beautifully insightful threads. I didn't really take part in the tar-spreading thread, but I did have one post in the Drive-In movie thread.

Here's a link to the thread in our archive.

http://www.geocities.com/bbmarchive/surfparty.html

We started discussion why "Surf Party" was chosen and why that scene in the movie in particular. Read through for some interesting theory. But yeah, it seemed to be a consensus that it recalled many of the early Jack and Ennis moments. I suggested that it was a contrast with the opening scenes. In the film, the guy and girl introduced themselves as she comes out of the trailer, and they openly flirt, reminding Ennis of how they also introduced themselves as they came out of Aguirre's trailer, and they had a subtle flirtation.

[tiawahcowboy]

Tia is the way I shorten it. 

Well, sure, but that doesn't make you an authority on how ALL men think, now does it?

No, he doesn't have to, but he most certainly could and very likely did.

While this is not a regular message board run by an ISP, according to internet etiquette, it is rude to shorten the a person's "ID" name. I could mess with your Spanish name and say something accordingly. 

I am not an authority on all men; but, I am old enough to know quite about a bit about them. What makes you an authority on male sexual activity. All men are not alike when it comes to sexual preferences; not every guy masturbates.

[welliwont]

Here's a link to the thread in our archive.

http://www.geocities.com/bbmarchive/surfparty.html

Hot damn Starboardlight, how did you do that???  Is there really an archive for the IMDb threads?  Cool, who has access to it??

J

[Aussie Chris]

Hey Chris:  What is TOB?  The Other Board??  please confirm or explain...  Here is one more explanation that I read on IMDb two days ago:  The boy in the film is telling the pretty little blonde girl that it is illegal to park their trailer, ie:  camp on the beach, and that is reminiscent of the illegal camping that Aguirre insisted that the herder do up on Brokeback.  Do you think that is too obscure?

The reason we believe that Ennis is thinking of Jack when he is tarring, is who in their right mind would not be reminiscing and pining for last summer's peaceful idylic job up with his buddy Jack?  Versus being teamed up with *such* a blabbermouth, man!   --  if I have to listen to him all day!  And plus the fact the the guy says "broke back".

Hi J, sorry I missed this question the other day.  Yes, TOB=The Old/Original Board.  Yeah, the film at the drive-in having dialog reminiscent of the rules for sleeping with the sheep is a little obscure to me, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a deliberate choice.  I like your take that Ennis would have been thinking of Jack while tarring using the "wouldn't you" approach (and the answer is yes).  I like even more that you picked up on "Broke back's and weak minds run in the family" reminding Ennis of Broke-back - actually I think he says "bad back's" but I might have miss-heard this.  Thanks for pointing it out though!

[nic]

Interesting thread.  But I hope it doesn't turn into the mythicial "were they gay" thread on the DC board, except it would be the "was Ennis <insert suitable indubitable euphemism verb> while thinking about Jack in the 4 years before the reunion" thread LOL

On that matter, I'd say the general concensus is that the euphemistic version is what was intended but as with so many other aspects of the story, readers/viewers can have a spectrum of interpretations and the resulting discussions can be very illuminating.  There are many questions I still haven't come to my own conclusion about, which is frustrating as I have an unquenchable need to. 

Yes, these concepts are from TOB. Sorry to talk in shorthand, though I don't want to go over things if people are already familiar with them. The threads were long, but as briefly as possible here are some of the main points:

Tar-spreading scene: The guy Ennis is working with reminds Ennis in a negative way of Jack (he's neither cute nor fun), and also of how Ennis himself could very well wind up in 20 years. Ennis is wearing a blue plaid shirt (Jack's colors). The big clue is the other guy says something like "the wife said I would break my back working blah blah blah" and it's those words that trigger Ennis to stand up and look wistfully off to one side into the distance, as he always does when thinking of Jack.

This may have been picked up before here or elsewhere - the fact that Ennis looks off to one side when thinking about Jack.   Apparently when you are remembering something you subconsciously look off to the side of the brain where memories are stored.  Conversely if you are lying you look off into the other direction as that is the side of the brain concerned with imagination.  Unfortunately I don't know which side is which!  I wonder if it works when Ennis when he is lying to Alma - I'll try to remember to check it out on next viewing.

[nakymaton]

I like even more that you picked up on "Broke back's and weak minds run in the family" reminding Ennis of Broke-back - actually I think he says "bad back's" but I might have miss-heard this.  Thanks for pointing it out though!

Isn't it "strong backs and weak minds"? But before that, he says "...says I'm gettin' too old to be breakin' my back shoveling asphalt." So the reference is there.

I'd never caught that before.

(Has anybody seen "Surf Party"? I haven't, and don't know anything about the movie. Did the early version of the screenplay posted somewhere on the net have a different movie? I thought that "Hud" was shown in one of the early screenplays... and I haven't seen that, either. I'm curious about reasons why the screenplay changed from the early drafts to the one that was originally filmed. Especially for the reasons why some of the details changed.)

[silkncense]

David -

Although I don't agree with ALL the interpretations, I also viewed the bar quote the same:

The bartender sees Jack get rejected.  So when the Bartender then says :" Ever try Calf roping?"  I take that he is telling Jack "try sticking to picking up girls"  

Tiawahcowboy - I just asked this on another thread but since you brought the subject up here & you have such an issue with how your "ID" name is addressed, why didn't you stick to TJ?  Or Joe Allen Doty???

[tiawahcowboy]

Tiawahcowboy - I just asked this on another thread but since you brought the subject up here & you have such an issue with how your "ID" name is addressed, why didn't you stick to TJ?  Or Joe Allen Doty???

Whom are you talking about?  Who is "TJ? "Joe Allen Doty?" In regard to the latter, I heard that he has relatives in Tiawah. I do have a membership in one of his Yahoo Groups about cowboys.

Look at my signature line and see whose name is in it. 

[tiawahcowboy]

Tar-spreading scene: The guy Ennis is working with reminds Ennis in a negative way of Jack (he's neither cute nor fun), and also of how Ennis himself could very well wind up in 20 years. Ennis is wearing a blue plaid shirt (Jack's colors). The big clue is the other guy says something like "the wife said I would break my back working blah blah blah" and it's those words that trigger Ennis to stand up and look wistfully off to one side into the distance, as he always does when thinking of Jack.

Oh, they are spreading (hot) asphalt, which is a mixture of pitch (contains a petroleum based black tar) sand, and fine gravel. They are putting an asphalt surface on a dirt road. I have worked for the county highway department and we did patch pot-holes in the roads which had an asphalt surface.  I looked at the scene in the movie and they are putting that directly on top of dirt without the roadbed even being properly prepared with a layer of coarse gravel. In the movie, Ennis works on the highway crew BEFORE he moves to Riverton; but, in the AP story, AFTER he moves to Riverton, he has a full-time job with the highway crew and works on a ranch on the weekends to pay for keeping his horses there.

Oh, I think that one of the reasons that Ennis looks to the side while the other guy is yakkin' is that he is wishing that he was somewhere else and did not have to listen to the guy. I have met guys who will talk to anyone who has ears whether the other person wants to listen or not.

Drive-in scene: The woman in the movie is emerging from a trailer, a reminder of Aguirre's trailer. There was some talk of what the actual movie is onscreen, which I missed, though I think that may be significant, too. (Starboardlight, if you read this, weren't you in on that discussion?) And Alma grabs Ennis' hand and presses it to her pregnant belly in a way reminiscent of Jack's grabbing Ennis' hand in TS1.

Well, it is like this, that ain't in the book, the drive-in movie scene, that is. I have known women who got married just so they could have babies and they did want their husbands to put their hands on ther tummies. As far as the reason the scene was added to the story, one will have to ask those who were involved with the making of the movie.

In the book, there is absolutely nothing really romantic in the relationship of Ennis and Alma.

Quote from the book which has some details about the birth of Alma Jr.

In December Ennis married Alma Beers and had her pregnant by mid-January. He picked up a few short-lived ranch jobs, then settled in as a wrangler on the old Elwood Hi-Top place north of Lost Cabin in Washakie County. He was still working there in September when Alma Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock.

That "all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock" makes me think that Ennis's attitude toward the situation was he and Alma might have as well have been keeping house in a barn. And the birth of a baby girl was, to Ennis, like the birth of a filly to a mare. We do know (according to the book) that Ennis called his horses and his daughters "little darlin'." He must have just called Alma, "Alma."

[silkncense]

Tiawahcowboy -

Well the title of this thread is certainly appropriate.  Why the lie? 

The ENTIRE last paragraph with spelling & grammatical errors was previously posted under either the ID "TJ" or "Joe Allen Doty."  If you want, I will try to have the previous posts checked to refresh your memory.

tiawahcowboy
Sr. Ranch Hand

 Online

Gender:
Posts: 59


All I know is what I read in the papers


      Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2006, 06:21:29 pm »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: opinionista on May 28, 2006, 06:08:13 pm
It's funny because in Spanish Del Mar is a girl's name. It's usually a middle name, as in Maria del Mar.


Yep, an' thar's a whole passel of Hispanic men who have "Maria" as first name. John Wayne's and Pat Robertson's legal first names? Marion. I used to know a woman whose first name was spelled "Marion."

In my life, I have known men named, Sharon, Shirley, and Sherrill.  Sharon Parks was a great big country boy and nobody fun of his name. Shirley Rogers McKenzie preferred to be called "Roger;" his mother name him after a male Cherokee relative whose full name was "Shirley Rogers." Sherrill Booker told people to just call him "Booker." 

[delalluvia]

While this is not a regular message board run by an ISP, according to internet etiquette, it is rude to shorten the a person's "ID" name. I could mess with your Spanish name and say something accordingly.

Go right ahead.  People shorten my ID name all the time here and on other boards as well and it's not considered 'rude' nor do I consider it rude.  I like to make it as easy as possible for people to address me.  It's not their fault I chose the name I did.

[shrug]

I am not an authority on all men;

Well, then there you go.

but, I am old enough to know quite about a bit about them.

Heh, so am I.  For some men, they're not that hard to figure out.

What makes you an authority on male sexual activity.

Never said I was.

All men are not alike when it comes to sexual preferences; not every guy masturbates.

Of course not, but we're talking about Ennis.  And since he's a fictional character we can only assign him what sexual preferences the author gives him.  The expression used by the author 'wrang it out' can mean more than one thing, so many people take that as a euphemism.  And since stats say that 92% of men masturbate and Ennis seems to be a regular guy, liking and having sex with both men and women...[shrug].  I'd say the odds are Ennis is a very sexual guy, so masturbation would be right up his alley.  No rational reason to believe he engages in two forms of sexual activity, but would abstain from something as personal and simple as masturbation.

[opinionista]

To "wring" and to "wring out" (or as Ennis says in past tense "wrang it out)," is the act of trying squeeze out an answer to why something happens which seems to have no answer. The expression has no connection with masturbation.

Oh most definately it was referring to Masturbating.    Think of how the word was used in the book.   "I must have wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you".
Doesn't everyone fantasize about their dream partner when playing with themselves? 

I agree with DavidinHardford, in the short story Ennis was definitely referring to masturbating. They were talking about sex at that moment.

From the story:

"I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H. ain't nothing like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys, Jack?" "Shit no", said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.

Now that I have brought the above quotation from the story, I ask you guys, is Proulx implying that Jack had sex with other guys while away from Ennis? I'm not quite sure I understand what the author means with Jack riding more than bulls not rolling his own. 

[starboardlight]

Hot damn Starboardlight, how did you do that???  Is there really an archive for the IMDb threads?  Cool, who has access to it??

J

Several of us started saving threads that we liked to our hard drives. When the trolls started to delete the threads on the board, we got together and compiled our archives together. Someone was kind enough to host this archive. We can only use it to read what had been posted. We can't really interact with it anymore, in terms of adding posts. It's a nice resource for reading what others have said and theorized about the details of the movie. Here's the link to the archive. Enjoy.

http://www.geocities.com/bbmarchive/

[starboardlight]

all this arguing about "wrang it out" is funny. tiawahcowboy, you're certainly entitled to interpret the phrase how you like, but I don't understand why you're so adamant that other read it the same way you do. In literature, metaphors are very common. An imagery can be used to describe something even though they nothing to do with one another. When Shakespeare wrote "A rose by any other name" he wasn't talking about flowers. He used the phrase to describe Romeo and Juliet's love in the face of family conflict. A phrase can have a surface meaning and many under layers of meanings at the same time.

[delalluvia]

From the story:

"I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H. ain't nothing like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys, Jack?" "Shit no", said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.

Now that I have brought the above quotation from the story, I ask you guys, is Proulx implying that Jack had sex with other guys while away from Ennis? I'm not quite sure I understand what the author means with Jack riding more than bulls not rolling his own. 

I think Proulx meant Jack was having sex with other men.  Ang Lee/writers seem to think so as well, hence the scene with Jimbo the clown in the movie.  Jack was actively seeking sex with other men.

[opinionista]

I think Proulx meant Jack was having sex with other men.  Ang Lee/writers seem to think so as well, hence the scene with Jimbo the clown in the movie.  Jack was actively seeking sex with other men.

Thanks Del. That's what I thought but wasn't 100% sure.

[tiawahcowboy]

all this arguing about "wrang it out" is funny. tiawahcowboy, you're certainly entitled to interpret the phrase how you like, but I don't understand why you're so adamant that other read it the same way you do. In literature, metaphors are very common. An imagery can be used to describe something even though they nothing to do with one another. When Shakespeare wrote "A rose by any other name" he wasn't talking about flowers. He used the phrase to describe Romeo and Juliet's love in the face of family conflict. A phrase can have a surface meaning and many under layers of meanings at the same time.

Listen up, I live in Oklahoma and so did thousands of other people. If you look up the colloquial/regional expression, "wrang it out," you will see that it has to do with some serious thinking about getting the answer to a difficult question and it takes quite a while before one realizes what the real answer was.

In the book/short story, in August 1963, after Ennis and Jack drove (their trucks) away in opposite directions, "within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at at time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off."

Then at the 1967 Reunion in the Riverton Siesta Motel room . . . "That summer," said Ennis. "When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

Ennis did not exactly have a limited vocabulary; he was a man of few words when it came to speaking to strangers and to himself. The expressions, to "figure it out" and to, "wring it out," mean exactly the same thing here in Tiawah.  

[delalluvia]

Thanks Del. That's what I thought but wasn't 100% sure.

I'm not sure about the specifics though.

'Riding more than bulls' is fairly clear.  I'm not sure about the 'not rolling his own', unless Proulx was using more than one expression for the same thing?

[delalluvia]

Listen up, I live in Oklahoma and so did thousands of other people. If you look up the colloquial/regional expression, "wrang it out," you will see that it has to do with some serious thinking about getting the answer to a difficult question and it takes quite a while before one realizes what the real answer was.

Yes, but neither Ennis/Jack or Proulx are in Oklahoma.  What means one thing in Oklahoma can most certainly mean something else in Wyoming.

[tiawahcowboy]

I agree with DavidinHardford, in the short story Ennis was definitely referring to masturbating. They were talking about sex at that moment.

From the story:

"I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H. ain't nothing like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys, Jack?" "Shit no", said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.

Now that I have brought the above quotation from the story, I ask you guys, is Proulx implying that Jack had sex with other guys while away from Ennis? I'm not quite sure I understand what the author means with Jack riding more than bulls not rolling his own. 

Is the American English language the first language you learned? Or did you learn English after you learned Spanish?

I have noticed in a number of internet groups and forums boads related to Brokeback Mountain, most of the membership in them know very little or almost nothing about how rural people, cowboys and farmers, etc., talk in their everyday lives in the US states of Montana, N. Dakota, S. Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri (western side especially), Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, and Wyoming.

[tiawahcowboy]

Yes, but neither Ennis/Jack or Proulx are in Oklahoma.  What means one thing in Oklahoma can most certainly mean something else in Wyoming.

And what makes you an expert on American Country regional dilects and local expression, ma'am?

[tiawahcowboy]

Oh, my its really interesting how so many women think they understand everything there is to know about men, including how they think and what they do with themselves while they are thinking.

[opinionista]

Is the American English language the first language you learned? Or did you learn English after you learned Spanish?

I have noticed in a number of internet groups and forums boads related to Brokeback Mountain, most of the membership in them know very little or almost nothing about how rural people, cowboys and farmers, etc., talk in their everyday lives in the US states of Montana, N. Dakota, S. Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri (western side especially), Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, and Wyoming.

I speak English as a second language.

Regarding the "wrang it out" expression I don't know exactly what it means in Oklahoma or anywhere else, to tell you the truth.  I do know, however, that sometimes meanings change according to context, so the expresssion probably has different meanings. It depends on how you use it.

As I posted above, in the short story the expression "wrang it out" comes out when they're talking about sex at the motel, which is why I think Ennis is referring to masturbation. It's pretty clear, in my opinion, even though I speak English as a second language. Besides, I read a translated version of the story and that line was translated into Spanish as masturbation. I'm sure the translators did their job right and did the proper researching in order to translate Proulx's word as accurate as possible.

[delalluvia]

And what makes you an expert on American Country regional dilects and local expression, ma'am?

Um, if 'wrang out' is - as you stated - an Oklahoma regional/local expression it is therefore, by YOUR definition, not a national expression and thus may not be applicable to Wyoming.

You don't have to be an expert to make that conclusion.

[delalluvia]

Oh, my its really interesting how so many women think they understand everything there is to know about men, including how they think and what they do with themselves while they are thinking.

Hmmm, why are you generalizing and putting words in my mouth?

I never said any of the above.  Go back and read my posts clearly and you will see for yourself.

[delalluvia]

Originally posted by silkincense:

Tiawahcowboy - I just asked this on another thread but since you brought the subject up here & you have such an issue with how your "ID" name is addressed, why didn't you stick to TJ?  Or Joe Allen Doty?

So Tiawahcowboy = Tj = Joe Allen Doty

Interesting.

[tiawahcowboy]

Um, if 'wrang out' is - as you stated - an Oklahoma regional/local expression it is therefore, by YOUR definition, not a national expression and thus may not be applicable to Wyoming.

You don't have to be an expert to make that conclusion.

Right, no one has to be an expert when it comes to jumping to conclusions! How many Western short storys and novels have you read which were written by people who live or have lived in the US states in which the fictional Jack Twist lived and through which he travelled? Have you ever read any of Robert Conley's books? He is an awarded Western fiction writer and also writes Cherokee historical fiction. In his Cherokee "Real People" historical novel series, he has the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma's approval for those stories. Part of what is in his "Real People" series comes for oral history of the Cherokees and was not printed in a book before. But, while he does not cite the source of the oral history, I have heard the same, or almost the, same oral history.   

A little off topic here, have you ever read the Western Novel, "Native," by William Heywood Henderson? That story also takes place in Wyoming. And it is about gay cowboys and homophobia, too.

[RouxB]

Originally posted by silkincense:

Tiawahcowboy - I just asked this on another thread but since you brought the subject up here & you have such an issue with how your "ID" name is addressed, why didn't you stick to TJ?  Or Joe Allen Doty?

So Tiawahcowboy = Tj = Joe Allen Doty

Interesting.

Yep "Del"  it would seem...

[tiawahcowboy]

Wal, thar is times when ah's talkin' t'mah buddies an' when ah's reckonin' of whut ah's a-gonna say next, they say whut ah was a-gonna say an' they said it in th' exack same wo'ds whut ah was reckonin', too. Thet's th' honess truth! Fry mah hide!

[delalluvia]

So Tiawahcowboy = Tj = Joe Allen Doty

Interesting.

Yep "Del"  it would seem...

Hmmm, wonder why he would assume so many guises?

I think it was TJ who made some silly statement about leaving the forum if he heard one more 'condescending' comment to him about a certain subject - which of course was an open invitation and he was promptly given exactly that.  Then Doty popped up.

So I guess he had to assume another guise so he could continue to post here and have his other identity appear to be upholding his sworn statement.

 

[RouxB]

I know other people on this board have changed their screen names but never try to disguise their identities. I just don't understand the motivation behind it-noone is fooled-it's perplexing, to be polite.

Anyway, back to the topic-what ist he topic??

 

[tiawahcowboy]

Anyway, back to the topic-what ist he topic??

Back to the topic thread in this group:

So, this is a relatively straight forward question.  Why does Ennis lie to Alma about how he knows Jack?  When she asks whether they had cowboy-ed together (by the way I love the use of the word cowboy as a verb!) he says, no, that they were fishing buddies.  Why doesn't he want her to know they had worked together?  I truly don't understand the reasoning here.

Well, why did Ennis say one time, "I'm not no queer?" He lied when said that to Jack after they had had quite a bit of same-sex activity.

I already posted that Alma might not have known that he, a cowboyin' ranch hand, had worked with sheep for 3 months. And, he did not want her to know that; what old west type cowboy would admit to herding sheep for a living?

[silkncense]

silkncense
Sr. Ranch Hand

 Online

Gender:
Posts: 131



     Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #45 on: Today at 10:41:21 am »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiawahcowboy -

Well the title of this thread is certainly appropriate.  Why the lie? 

The ENTIRE last paragraph with spelling & grammatical errors was previously posted under either the ID "TJ" or "Joe Allen Doty."  If you want, I will try to have the previous posts checked to refresh your memory. 

I did not find the exact copy but here's what I did find -

As Alma said "DON'T try to fool me no more"...

TJ, Joe Allan Doty, Tiawahcowboy - I also don't appreciate your implication that I was either lying or stupid.  I am neither.

LJ

     
tiawahcowboy
Sr. Ranch Hand

 Online

Gender:
Posts: 59


All I know is what I read in the papers


      Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2006, 06:21:29 pm »   

  Yep, an' thar's a whole passel of Hispanic men who have "Maria" as first name. John Wayne's and Pat Robertson's legal first names? Marion. I used to know a woman whose first name was spelled "Marion."

In my life, I have known men named, Sharon, Shirley, and Sherrill.  Sharon Parks was a great big country boy and nobody fun of his name. Shirley Rogers McKenzie preferred to be called "Roger;" his mother name him after a male Cherokee relative whose full name was "Shirley Rogers." Sherrill Booker told people to just call him "Booker." 

Quote
 

TJ
Guest
  Re: Hats off to Roberta Maxwell (Mrs. Twist)
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2006, 12:51:39 am »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

julie01, after I posted a response to your message, I looked at your BetterMost Profile.

I did not know that you were so much older than me.

The 16 year old "guy" actually has a woman's name "ednakrabapley" in his email address. I have never met a guy named "Edna" (that's my older sister's name); but, I have had friends whose first names were Sherrill, Shirley and Sharon.

Sherrill's last name was "Booker' and he prefered to be called by his last name. Shirley's Middle name was "Rogers;" he had been named after a male Cherokee relative "Shirley Rogers," he preferred to be called "Roger."

Now the Sharon guy was a big fellow and nobody made fun of his name.
 

[starboardlight]

Listen up, I live in Oklahoma and so did thousands of other people. If you look up the colloquial/regional expression, "wrang it out," you will see that it has to do with some serious thinking about getting the answer to a difficult question and it takes quite a while before one realizes what the real answer was.

In the book/short story, in August 1963, after Ennis and Jack drove (their trucks) away in opposite directions, "within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at at time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off."

Then at the 1967 Reunion in the Riverton Siesta Motel room . . . "That summer," said Ennis. "When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

Ennis did not exactly have a limited vocabulary; he was a man of few words when it came to speaking to strangers and to himself. The expressions, to "figure it out" and to, "wring it out," mean exactly the same thing here in Tiawah.  

well now, Tiawah and Oklahoma are not Wyoming, are they? Just because that's what you want it to mean doesn't make it so. Ennis uses expression to mean other things often. "There's no reins on this one" wasn't referring to riding horses. He does speak with metaphors, in both AP's prose and in the film. All I'm saying is let's allow that there might be more meaning behind words than any one particular interpretation.

[Brown Eyes]

Hey there people,

Let's just let the "wrang it out" issue go for now since it seems to be causing distress and go back to the question of the fishing buddies story that Ennis tells Alma. 

[Lumière]

Hey there people,

Let's just let the "wrang it out" issue go for now since it seems to be causing distress and go back to the question of the fishing buddies story that Ennis tells Alma. 

No kidding, Amanda - Someone could easily wring their neck tripping over long arguments about what 'wrang it out' means! 
Some great points have been made so far..
I always thought that the "rolling his own" comment was in reference to masturbation. 
Didn't even think twice about it until now. 
Okay, we can move on from it now.   

[Brown Eyes]

It seems like the "wrang it out" problem would be a good topic for the "double meanings" thread.  I still like that the word "twist" was used so often in the various definitions of "wring/ wrang."

[tiawahcowboy]

I always thought that the "rolling his own" comment was in reference to masturbation. 

When one is rolling his own, it has to do with buying his own pouch of smoking tobacco and own cigarette papers and hand-rolling his own cigarettes. If a gay guy who smokes lets another smoker cowboy take him home with him, the cowboy host provides the ready-made cigarettes after sex. While "riding more than bulls" refers to bull riders, "riding more than horses" refers to saddle bronc and bareback horse rodeo riders. And, the expression is sex related.

The screenwriters used artistic license and had added a scene with Alma seeing the card first before Ennis did and asking him about Jack Twist.

It is several years after the reunion takes place before the short story narrative mentions Ennis's fishing (or trips, even) with Jack twice a year.

The first time fishin' is used in a dialog is when Alma asks if Ennis still goes fishin' with Jack at Thanksgiving after she divorces him.

[RouxB]

LJ

 

 

[silkncense]

Lucise -

What you learn on this board.  I was sure about "wrang it out" but had never heard of "rolling his own"!

(See ya soon RouxB!)

[Phillip Dampier]

All users here have the ability to change their handle at any time.  The reasons people do this vary considerably.  I hope people will judge the messages written here based on their individual merit.  I always remember people do change over time, and my hope is always that the change that occurs is positive.

That's my two cents anyway.

[sparkle_motion]

Coming from someone who grew up in small town Texas, I can tell you, I have never heard "wrang it out" used in any other fashion except in reference to masturbation.

In reference to the lie, I think Ennis was just scared and nervous and perhaps a little ashamed and his first instinct was to lie.

[welliwont]

Several of us started saving threads that we liked to our hard drives. When the trolls started to delete the threads on the board, we got together and compiled our archives together. Someone was kind enough to host this archive. We can only use it to read what had been posted. We can't really interact with it anymore, in terms of adding posts. It's a nice resource for reading what others have said and theorized about the details of the movie. Here's the link to the archive. Enjoy.

http://www.geocities.com/bbmarchive/

Hey, thanks Starboardlight, that is a wonderful resource!  I have already visited it, and it is rich beyond imagining.  Questions though, stuff at Geocities has a tendency to get dead when the person who hosted it moves on, will BetterMost set up a contingency plan for this possibility?  I certainly hope that we have BetterMost in our lives for a long long long time!

I am a relative newcomer to this wonderful community, (only saw BBM on April 14th if you can believe it) and I can't think of a more opportune time to ask this so here goes:  I have gleaned from what I have read that the IMDb Brokeback Mountain messageboard was attended very early, in fact even before the movie was released.  It got busy in Dec and Jan, and at some point (in Jan?) the serious posters branched off into a Secret Society called Pierre Tremblay, the name of the Assistant Producer of our beloved BBM.  They did it to escape the demonic trolls, and membership in this elite group was by invitation only.  Here comes the question:  (actually 2 or 3 questions):

How and when did the trolls discover that you were all re-grouped at Chez Tremblay?

I understand Pierre Tremblay answered questions and contributed (at the beginning?).  Can you point me in the direction of the threads he contributed to, answered questions, etc?

Actually if one of you original members would compose a short  -- no make that a long story about the beginnings of CT, the founding members, etc, the evolution of the whole Brokeback Mountain phenomenon, IMDB-to-BetterMost, I would find it exceedingly interesting.

please please please!  and thanks!

[tiawahcowboy]

All users here have the ability to change their handle at any time.  The reasons people do this vary considerably.  I hope people will judge the messages written here based on their individual merit.  I always remember people do change over time, and my hope is always that the change that occurs is positive.

That's my two cents anyway.

Thank you, Phillip.

But, some people are stubborn when it comes to change and that included people who are like the fictional Ennis Del Mar.

[vkm91941]

what old west type cowboy would admit to herding sheep for a living?

Ennis was a poor boy from a poor ranch in Wyoming..It's 1963.  It has nothing to do with being an old west type cowboy.  There's no way he disappeared without explanation or without writing to her for 3 months.  They were planning to marry, Alma knew where Ennis was and what he was doing to earn the money so they could marry.

I always thought that the "rolling his own" comment was in reference to masturbation.

 

When one is rolling his own, it has to do with buying his own pouch of smoking tobacco and own cigarette papers and hand-rolling his own cigarettes.

Well in Missouri in 1925 per my Dad and still in Montana and Wyoming 1985 per my own experiences the expression rolling your own could mean making your own cigarettes or male masturbation.

Oh, my its really interesting how so many women think they understand everything there is to know about men, including how they think and what they do with themselves while they are thinking.

Hey, watch it, this is a friendly forum and misogynistic statements only make you look like the stereotypical gay male who hates women. Not only that it's a mean spirited manipulative snipe at the other poster whom you know to be female.  You're the one who brought up internet etiquette this is bad form.  As is dismissing other posters comments because you assume that English may not be the posters first language.

Lets keep it light, positive and keep it fun.  Thanks

[Mikaela]

English is in fact not my first language either. Though I've only ever participated in English-speaking parts of BBM fandom, I've still bought the recently published local language translated version of Close Range. It's been published by a well-reputed publishing house that certainly can be expected to use experienced translators who'll manage to capture and preserve ambiguities and colloquial nuances necessary to the story in their translation.
"Wrang it out" is translated unambiguously into a word that *only* means "masturbated". "Rollling his own" is translated into an expression that means "doing manual work".  Obviously the translator in question didn't have any doubt what the guys were talking about there, - and neither have I.

[tiawahcowboy]

Ennis was a poor boy from a poor ranch in Wyoming..It's 1963.  It has nothing to do with being an old west type cowboy.  There's no way he disappeared without explanation or without writing to her for 3 months.  They were planning to marry, Alma knew where Ennis was and what he was doing to earn the money so they could marry.

I made the original comment because of the actual books written by Old West cowboys, some of whom hid the fact that they did herd sheep sometime in their lives after they got ranch work. We really do not even know how Ennis met Alma Beers in the first place. It is almost like Ennis felt he had to marry her. We do know that it was not because she was pregnant. Since Ennis got his job with Aguirre because he signed up with "Farm and Ranch Employment" (possibly a state agency), he could have just told her that he got a job for the summer working on a ranch.

Well in Missouri in 1925 per my Dad and still in Montana and Wyoming 1985 per my own experiences the expression rolling your own could mean making your own cigarettes or male masturbation.

Not disagreeing with you here, Victoria . . . Well, it also means, as far as gay men are concerned, one does not have to purchase certain things if he agrees to have sex with a man who will buy him or give him cigarettes, beer, drugs, etc..

Hey, watch it, this is a friendly forum and misogynistic statements only make you look like the stereotypical gay male who hates women. Not only that it's a mean spirited manipulative snipe at the other poster whom you know to be female.  You're the one who brought up internet etiquette this is bad form.  As is dismissing other posters comments because you assume that English may not be the posters first language.

Ma'am, I have had non-American women on various Brokeback Forums and Yahoo Groups tell me I have been wrong about something and they had no idea what an American expression that I had used even meant. Oh, I don't hate women at all. I get along with women in real life no matter what their sexual orientation might me.

My comments towards certain women in BetterMost is the fact that just like in those other cyber-situations they think they know men better than men do and almost every woman who has made that statement is in a heterosexual relationship with a man.

Lets keep it light, positive and keep it fun.  Thanks

Trying to do that here, that's why I let Phillip know about people seeming to be more interested in harassing me than discussing the topic of discussion.

[tiawahcowboy]

English is in fact not my first language either. Though I've only ever participated in English-speaking parts of BBM fandom, I've still bought the recently published local language translated version of Close Range. It's been published by a well-reputed publishing house that certainly can be expected to use experienced translators who'll manage to capture and preserve ambiguities and colloquial nuances necessary to the story in their translation.
"Wrang it out" is translated unambiguously into a word that *only* means "masturbated". "Rollling his own" is translated into an expression that means "doing manual work".  Obviously the translator in question didn't have any doubt what the guys were talking about there, - and neither have I.

Well, "wrang it out" can be related to the putting of one thoughts through the wringer trying to figure out exactly what something meant or why some situation happened with the thinking person not understanding why. Ennis Del Mar did not understand why it took him at least a hundred times when thinking about sex with a guy, it was always Jack Twist. He did not have to masturbate.

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, if a person had a washing machine at home, it was the type with a wringer attached and there were two rollers in the wringer that one put the clothes through to wring as much water as possible out of them. We had one which had a gasoline motor and we generally either used it out side or on the back porch. We had one similar to the pic below; but, it had a much larger tub than that one.

Since I took courses in Spanish and French in university, I also know that some expressions in those languages did not translate too well into English. In some cases, American English had no expression comparable to the original language because the expression was related to something that only a Native speaker would understand. So, rather than just attempt to mentally translate/interpret the original into English, it was better to just try to think in the original language.  Sort of OT here; but, in 1990 I was a US Census Enumerator who did follow-up interviews at residences of those who improperly filled out their original forms, never mailed them in or never received them in the first place. While I did have the official Spanish language questionnaires, they were written in standardized Spanish for those who were actually studied Spanish grammar in classes which was in their first language.

But, most of the people with whom I talked were from Mexico and they did not have many formal classes in their native language. Since I had learned a number of "border-slang" expressions, which were called "bizcochos," "biscuits" in English translations, meaning they were hispanicized English words, I had to substitue the "biscuits" for the formal words so they would not what I was talking about.

[serious crayons]

I know that more sensible minds than mine have urged that we set this issue aside and get on with the real topic of the thread. But I just have to make this point (as I did once before when this same topic came up with a poster going by the name of Joe). To insist that Annie Proulx would have used such a conspicuous and colorful idiom without realizing that 90 percent of the people reading it would interpret it to mean something else -- particularly something sexual -- is to give Annie Proulx WAAAAAAYYYY too little credit.

No decent literary writer would make that kind of mistake, not once but at least three times (wrang it out, rolling his own, stemming the rose). And Annie Proulx is an excellent literary writer.

[opinionista]

Since I took courses in Spanish and French in university, I also know that some expressions in those languages did not translate too well into English. In some cases, American English had no expression comparable to the original language because the expression was related to something that only a Native speaker would understand. So, rather than just attempt to mentally translate/interpret the original into English, it was better to just try to think in the original language.  Sort of OT here; but, in 1990 I was a US Census Enumerator who did follow-up interviews at residences of those who improperly filled out their original forms, never mailed them in or never received them in the first place. While I did have the official Spanish language questionnaires, they were written in standardized Spanish for those who were actually studied Spanish grammar in classes which was in their first language.

But, most of the people with whom I talked were from Mexico and they did not have many formal classes in their native language. Since I had learned a number of "border-slang" expressions, which were called "bizcochos," "biscuits" in English translations, meaning they were hispanicized English words, I had to substitue the "biscuits" for the formal words so they would not what I was talking about.

This doesn't make you a language expert. I'm sure the ones who translated this story into Spanish or any other language, knew how to do their job.

[nakymaton]

But imagine him even having to say the word "Brokeback" to her, given all he must associate with that word. She would never guess anything from it, but it would feel like a violation to him. (The only time he ever does say it to anyone, Lureen immediately grasps its significance.) He keeps the information to himself less to avoid hurting her or to let something slip about his sexuality than to prevent Alma's awareness from intruding on his memories of that beautiful sacrosanct time.

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

[vkm91941]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

You could be on to something here Mel.  That summer on Brokeback changed something in Ennis forever, even though he dutifully went home and married Alma like he said he would.  Perhaps he wanted to keep everything "Real" about him and Jack, and that summer just for himself in order to keep it precious and unpolluted in his memory.

[tiawahcowboy]

This doesn't make you a language expert. I'm sure the ones who translated this story into Spanish or any other language, knew how to do their job.

Does two college degrees in Spanish major with a French minor make me sort of an expert on those two languages? I did quite a few literature courses in those languages while earning a Bachelor of Arts in Education and a Master of Education. For each degree, both Spanish and Education were my majors. Some of the literature was written in the regional dialects of Spain and in the Hispanic language countries of North and South America, too.

If you have the book that is translated into Spanish, it should tell you at the front of the book who did the translating. You can either find it on the Title page or the next page behind it.

Does your book have the following in it?

AUTOR          Proulx, E. Annie  
TITULO         En terreno vedado : historias de Wyoming / Annie Proulx ; [traducción de María Corniero]  
PUBLICAC      Madrid : Siglo XXI de España editores, 2001
 
 

[Mikaela]

I do think Ennis didn't tell Alma anything of emotional importance to him about his summer job on the mountain; - but I do think he had to tell her something. Returning to his fiancee after months away, he had to say something, tell the barest outline of how the summer went. He and Alma were on speaking terms back then after all - however taciturn Ennis was! So I've imagined he told as little as possible, kept to the general truth about the sheep and the weather etc. - and changed the description of the guy he was working with. Of course I don't think he'd elaborate - just a comment or two to make him into someone entirely else, not very interesting, not worthy of further talk or descriptions. (Perhaps he used the Basque as his model for that?   ) But then, when the card from Jack arrives, he can't under any circumstance suddenly go against the previous white lies and say this is the guy I was sheepherding with. He has to find some other tale to tell.

(Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

I like this very much, but he does say "Jack, he rodeos, mostly." And after that whole rodeo fuck-up sequence and the belt buckle and everything you'd think he'd keep the rodeoing part of Jack's life pretty sacrosanct, too?

Though it's probably unimaginative of me, I think the "fishing" thing was just a spur of the moment idea to give Alma *something*, something realistic -  without indicating he'd actually ever worked with Jack. Ennis leaves the room in a hurry - he sure doesn't want her to see his face there - but also it precludes further immediate questions concerning where and when they knew each other. I wonder if he made up some further couple of details to the fishing buddy tale to tell her, just in case she asked again?

[serious crayons]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

Thanks, Mel. And back at you -- both of the above are very cool observations, too!

However, regarding the first one, I'm wondering -- does Ennis say Brokeback" when he's talking to the Twists about the ashes (I can't remember exactly! But isn't it something like, "I come by to offer to scatter Jack's ashes on Brokeback Mountain, like his wife said Jack wanted"?) Because if so, it could be significant that it's the first time. In other words, Ennis may be using the word in the same symbolic sense that Old Man Twist does when he says "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is ..."  Brokeback = gay. By claiming it for the first time, especially in combination with Jack, Ennis is finally acknowledging the nature of their relationship.

[tiawahcowboy]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

In the book, the only time time Ennis uses "Brokeback" in a sentence is when he is talking to Lureen and Jack's parents. You are quite right that when Ennis is with Jack from the the Reunion in 1967 until 1983, Jack is the only one who talks about Brokeback.

I say that Ennis said "fishin' buddies" because he actually owned fishing gear. He did have what he needed to go fly fishing for brown trout.

[Mikaela]

His exact words are:

I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.


He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead. 

[nakymaton]

I do think Ennis didn't tell Alma anything of emotional importance to him about his summer job on the mountain; - but I do think he had to tell her something.

Well, he might have just said "hunnh" or "mmm-hmmm." I mean, this is Ennis, after all. I would assume that, if Alma knew him well enough to be engaged to him, she wouldn't have expected any kind of long, detailed story from him.

Somebody up-thread mentioned that the rodeoing might have just slipped out... that Ennis pauses, as if to collect himself just a little bit, before he tells the "fishing buddy" lie. As if Ennis let out more about that private part of himself than he ever intended to, in the heat of the moment when he saw Jack's postcard.

However, regarding the first one, I'm wondering -- does Ennis say Brokeback" when he's talking to the Twists about the ashes (I can't remember exactly! But isn't it something like, "I come by to offer to scatter Jack's ashes on Brokeback Mountain, like his wife said Jack wanted"?)

Doesn't Ennis say "Brokeback" when he's talking to Lureen? After she says that Jack wanted his ashes scattered there, Ennis manages to choke out something like "Me and Jack herded sheep up on Brokeback in '63." (Don't have the screenplay book in front of me, and can't remember a thing without a written reference.) But I think the point you made works in either case -- Ennis is sort of quietly acknowledging to Lureen that there was something important between him and Jack, even though neither one says anything directly about it.

(That was the line that did me in the first time I saw the movie, by the way. The look on Ennis's face when he finally says "Brokeback" there in that little lonely public phone booth....  )

[tiawahcowboy]

Well, "Brokeback" could have meant "sheep herder" to John C. Twist, Sr. because he was a cattle rancher. It might have been that he did not like the idea that his cattle ranch-raised son herded sheep. Traditionally speaking, ranchers and cowboys don't like sheep nor those that herd them.

[serious crayons]

His exact words are:

I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.

He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead. 

Thanks, Mikaela! With the addition of "I'd be proud to," my interpretation -- that his use of the word is an acknowlegement -- makes even more sense to me. It implies a contrasting "I was ashamed of our relationship before." And if he says it to Lureen, that underscores it also, because it's that line that tips off Lureen about their relationship.

[starboardlight]

Hey, thanks Starboardlight, that is a wonderful resource!  I have already visited it, and it is rich beyond imagining.  Questions though, stuff at Geocities has a tendency to get dead when the person who hosted it moves on, will BetterMost set up a contingency plan for this possibility?  I certainly hope that we have BetterMost in our lives for a long long long time!

I am a relative newcomer to this wonderful community, (only saw BBM on April 14th if you can believe it) and I can't think of a more opportune time to ask this so here goes:  I have gleaned from what I have read that the IMDb Brokeback Mountain messageboard was attended very early, in fact even before the movie was released.  It got busy in Dec and Jan, and at some point (in Jan?) the serious posters branched off into a Secret Society called Pierre Tremblay, the name of the Assistant Producer of our beloved BBM.  They did it to escape the demonic trolls, and membership in this elite group was by invitation only.  Here comes the question:  (actually 2 or 3 questions):

How and when did the trolls discover that you were all re-grouped at Chez Tremblay?

I understand Pierre Tremblay answered questions and contributed (at the beginning?).  Can you point me in the direction of the threads he contributed to, answered questions, etc?

Actually if one of you original members would compose a short  -- no make that a long story about the beginnings of CT, the founding members, etc, the evolution of the whole Brokeback Mountain phenomenon, IMDB-to-BetterMost, I would find it exceedingly interesting.

please please please!  and thanks!

well CT, wasn't really an invite only club. it was kinda organic but secret. we did invite people, but it was freely open to any one who discovered us. as you know, many were regular posters on the main board. they have really great posts, and people often will check out their post histories. by following their post histories, many people discovered CT and joined the group that way. that's also how the troll discovered CT, unfortunately, but it took them many many month to figure it out, which gave us enough time to bond and actually work through many many ideas about the film. It was never meant to be exclusive. the group did send out invites from time to time to people who we were sure were interested in serious discussion of the film. I'm not sure who originally started CT. I believe Chris_slayer, victoria, and David "studduck" were three of them.

Pierre did answer questions for us. I believe his answers are in the archive. He really did give us a lot of insight into the movie making process.

[starboardlight]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

very very good point. he doesn't even revisit the mountain with Jack. it's a sacred place in his mind. They never go back there. If he can't do that with Jack, there's no way he bring it up with Alma.

[Mikaela]

Thanks, Mikaela! With the addition of "I'd be proud to," my interpretation -- that his use of the word is an acknowlegement -- makes even more sense to me. It implies a contrasting "I was ashamed of our relationship before." And if he says it to Lureen, that underscores it also, because it's that line that tips off Lureen about their relationship.

It turns out the script (that I referred to in replying to you) has him saying he'd be "proud to", but in the film he actually says he'll be "happy to"! Either way I think what he says certainly is an acknowledgement - though using the word "happy" instead of "proud" seems oxymoronic and very unexpected in this context.... Perhaps it acknowledges how returning to Brokeback to fulfill Jack's last wish would set his own mind at rest a little, in addition to encompassing the "proud to" meaning.

At any rate - "Brokeback" and "happy" so close together in that one sentence of his carry a world of meaning and remembrance!

 

[Brown Eyes]

It turns out the script (that I referred to in replying to you) has him saying he'd be "proud to", but in the film he actually says he'll be "happy to"! Either way I think what he says certainly is an acknowledgement - though using the word "happy" instead of "proud" seems oxymoronic and very unexpected in this context.... Perhaps it acknowledges how returning to Brokeback to fulfill Jack's last wish would set his own mind at rest a little, in addition to encompassing the "proud to" meaning.

At any rate - "Brokeback" and "happy" so close together in that one sentence of his carry a world of meaning and remembrance!

Wow, this is really an interesting point to bring up.  I've always preferred the "proud to" version... I think for the reason that it does feel jarring to use the word "happy" in this scene.  But, Mikaela, I think you're right.  I think maybe Ennis's odd use of the word "happy" in this context does reveal how he really feels about the word Brokeback. 

There's another minor change from book to film that I've always wondered about.  It involves a very different context/ moment in the film.  During the argument scene in the book when Jack is complaining about Ennis never committing to the idea of livig together he says "but you wouldn't do it..."  In the film they change it to "but you didn't want it."  This has always bothered me.  I truly do think that Ennis wanted to live with Jack, but all of his fears, etc. held him back.   Am I being too simplistic here?  It seems important to the romance of the film to believe that on some level Ennis wished he could fulfill Jack's dream.  Maybe he only gets this after Jack's death... but it really worries me that Jack would think that Ennis didn't want the dream of the cow and calf operation too.  I don't sense Ennis's resistance at the level of "want".
 



ps. by the way, bump to a good thread!
 

[jpwagoneer1964]

In the book and film lends itself as well that the only time Jack and Ennis were on Brokeback was in 1963.

[serious crayons]

I truly do think that Ennis wanted to live with Jack, but all of his fears, etc. held him back.   Am I being too simplistic here?  It seems important to the romance of the film to believe that on some level Ennis wished he could fulfill Jack's dream.  Maybe he only gets this after Jack's death... but it really worries me that Jack would think that Ennis didn's want the dream of the cow and calf operation too.  I don't sense Ennis's resistance at the level of "want".

Well, you know you'll get no argument from me on your view. I think Ennis really did want it, even if he hardly dared admit so to himself. I've always taken Jack's line to be a bit influenced by anger and bitterness. You know how, if you feel angry at or betrayed by someone you love, you'll try to portray them as being more cruel or indifferent than they actually are? Or, at worst, Jack might have just straightforwardly meant that Ennis didn't want it because he was too homophobic and afraid to want it.

But I don't think Jack thought that Ennis didn't want it for lack of love, or that he wouldn't have wanted it in an ideal world. He knew that would have been Ennis' dream come true, had Ennis felt circumstances allowed it.

[Brown Eyes]

Bump!
 

[dly64]

It is really interesting that both Ennis and Jack never mentioned the fact that they were on Brokeback together that summer to there respective wives.  Maybe this has something to do with Ang Lee's statement that he sees their relationship as "something private and precious and they cannot articulate..."  Primarily here both Ennis and Jack (on their own) make gestures to keep the circumstances of their summer as private as possible to preserve the precious feeling about it. (Try saying the last half of that sentence 10 times fast. lol).  So, clearly they can't articulate anything about this for a huge number of reasons (either to their wives or in their own heads often)... and all of this emerges in the form of Ennis's little lie. "We were fishing buddies."  It's amazing how something so seemingly simple can become sooo complex.

His exact words are:

I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.


He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead. 

But I think the point you made works in either case -- Ennis is sort of quietly acknowledging to Lureen that there was something important between him and Jack, even though neither one says anything directly about it.

I found this thread and read through the whole thing. There are topics that I don’t want to dredge up … for obvious reasons. But, the three quotes above are all very interesting to me and something else I had not previously considered. (BTW, Katherine … I had never heard of the asphalt or movie theater interpretations … very enlightening!)

The whole idea of seeing “Brokeback” as something personal and special to both Jack and Ennis did not escape me. What I did not discern was the thought that even mentioning the word “Brokeback” somehow diminished the intimacy that Jack and Ennis experienced. It was mentioned somewhere in this thread that the only time Jack used the word “Brokeback” was in the motel room when he said, “Brokeback got us good, don’t it.” Jack did, however, use it one other time and that was during the lake scene when he said, “All we got now, is Brokeback Mountain! Everything’s built on that. That’s all we got, boy, f**king all.” This is another “bookend” in the film … the use of “Brokeback” at the time of their reunion and at their last time together. It is interesting to note how “Brokeback” was used. The first time, Jack referred to “Brokeback” in terms of it being an idyllic place. The last time, Jack inferred that it was a place where their relationship became stuck. What I mean by this is that Ennis could not translate/ transfer his lack of inhibitions and his intensity of feeling post mountain. Furthermore, the only way Ennis could recapture their time on BBM was “out in the middle of nowhere.” 

Again, I read somewhere in this thread about Ennis’ use of “Brokeback” after Jack died as a way to acknowledge his love for Jack. Although I had never thought of it in those terms, it makes sense. Ennis used it twice … with Lureen (which confirmed her suspicions that Jack was gay) and with Jack’s parents (which reinforced the knowledge that Jack was gay). After that, however, he has a postcard of BBM in the closet with the shirts.

[serious crayons]

Again, I read somewhere in this thread about Ennis’ use of “Brokeback” after Jack died as a way to acknowledge his love for Jack. Although I had never thought of it in those terms, it makes sense. Ennis used it twice … with Lureen (which confirmed her suspicions that Jack was gay) and with Jack’s parents (which reinforced the knowledge that Jack was gay). After that, however, he has a postcard of BBM in the closet with the shirts.

I was just thinking about this yesterday. In the short story, when he orders a postcard of Brokeback from the gift-shop lady, symbolically it's a little like Ennis coming out, in a way. Albeit in code that she wouldn't possibly understand.

[dly64]

I was just thinking about this yesterday. In the short story, when he orders a postcard of Brokeback from the gift-shop lady, symbolically it's a little like Ennis coming out, in a way. Albeit in code that she wouldn't possibly understand.

Never thought of that ... but it is a possibility. Or maybe even his internal acceptance that he is inescapably gay.

[Brown Eyes]

Back to the issue of both Ennis and Jack in their daily lives tip-toeing around the word "Brokeback" and keeping the fact secret that they even worked together in 63...   This seems to be one interesting circumstance where they're right in rhythm with one another... both essentially doing the same thing.  I think it helps show that the bonds of their intimacy stayed very intact even from a distance and shows a tacit agreement that these things are meant for the two of them alone (until Jack is dead of course).

In the book when Ennis buys that postcard it does seem like some sort of a coming out moment in that it's so deliberate.  He even needs to have the thing ordered.  So, he's extremely conscious of what he's doing.  It may be more of an issue of him coming out to himself than to anyone else since the meaning of buying a postcard would be lost on almost anyone else.  I think it's nice that the filmmakers consolidated the "Ennis-coming-out-to-himself" moments to the trailer scene at the end.  It makes that last scene appropriately intense.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I think he lied to Alma because he was so paranoid, he wanted to steer away from any lines of thought that would incriminate him.

Proulx has written in her essay that it is hard to accept, but sometimes the movie tells the story better than the story does. The shifting of things makes more sense in the movie. I am not sure Ennis was acknowledging anything about himself when he wrote back to Jack, he just wanted to see him again. (I feel).

[serious crayons]

I think it helps show that the bonds of their intimacy stayed very intact even from a distance and shows a tacit agreement that these things are meant for the two of them alone (until Jack is dead of course).

I've been thinking a lot about bookends lately, and I've decided this is one.

Scene: Ennis gets a postcard. Stares at it, shocked and overjoyed. Alma asks who Jack is. Ennis tells her they're fishing buddies. He doesn't refer directly to Brokeback, and lies about them working together.

Bookend: Ennis gets a postcard. Stares at it, shocked and grief-stricken. Lureen asks, "Who? Who is this?" She has been told they're fishing buddies. Ennis refers directly to Brokeback, and tells the truth about them working together.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Katherine,

That's a really interesting observation.  I agree that it functions as a bookend.  I wonder if it also functions as something like foreshadowing.  The idea of "foreshadowing" has been on my mind a little lately and isn't something I recall much in previous discussions.  In some ways bookends and foreshadowing are related, especially in this film.  But, the idea of foreshadowing seems more traditional.  I mean, are we supposed to be able to pick up subtle clues about the way things are going to end up all the way through the film?  For example, are the guys around the pool table in the Jimbo scene meant to foreshadow the (largely edited out) mechanics?

[Front-Ranger]

That's a good observation, Amanda! On the topic of bookends, I've been trying to figure out how and where to start a bookends discussion. You did it originally, so maybe you're the best one to start again. Me, I've been fixated on two scenes: One, where Alma asks Ennis to use "protection" and Two, where Jack is looking for his blue parka for protection from the cold. Are these bookends or not, in your opinion??

[Brown Eyes]

Whoa, Lee, that's a wild suggestion about "protection."  Yeah, I guess in a way it could be a kind of bookend.  Some bookends are really major and visually obvious... like the long-long distance shots of the trucks moving across the sceen against the backdrop of the mountains but in opposite directions at the beginning and end of the film.  The paper bags are also some really obvious bookends from the beginning and end of the film.  I honestly haven't read the old, old imdb "bookends" thread for a long time (that I started back when I was "amandazehnder" at imdb). I'm honored to note that the old thread is now in the archives!  But, I think it all started with the paper bags.

I'm sure that there are very, very subtle bookends too.  The parka/ "protection" idea is a new one.  I wonder if this might figure into the Jack vs. Alma issue in terms of competitiveness... or in terms of pitting one against the other in Ennis's affections, etc.?

[serious crayons]

I like the protection one, Lee! 

I didn't reread all of your thread, either, Amanda, mainly because I'd just been participating in an extremely long bookends thread on imdb. There are some incredibly subtle ones on there -- a few that I'll have to say seemed like kind of a stretch, but many that were pretty amazing.

I'll just throw one out, to whet your appetites, and also to brag that I guessed the correct answer to this bookend challenge that Casey Cornelius posed (the imdb thread is in the form of a game).

<< Scene: Jack tosses corncobs into a pot kneeling beside a flowing stream beginning to prepare a meal and is overjoyed at the sight of Ennis approaching. >>

Bookend: Jack stomps away from the flowing stream after a meal, exasperated with Ennis, who is washing the empty pot (and who subsequently loses his grip on it).

Some of what people called bookends were later deemed mirrors. When something happens in two different scenes -- such as Jack putting Ennis hand on his erection and then Alma putting Ennis' hand on her pregnant stomach -- they are mirrors, they decided, unless the second scene provides a sense of closure, as the truck and paper bags scenes do. But that's OK, people were throwing mirrors in there, too.

Your question about foreshadowing is interesting, Amanda. I think clearly there's lots of foreshadowing in the movie -- the slaughtered sheep, for example, and Jack washing his shirt naked in the stream. I don't know if the second one has a bookend, but the sheep clearly has its mirrors in Earl and, some would say, Alma's red-and-white outfit on the day of the reunion.

Maybe one way to revitalize a bookend thread would be to have people comment on the purpose or larger meaning of the bookend. For instance, the trucks/paper bags one could show that, having given up his chance at happiness, Ennis winds up 20 years later pretty much where he started. The corn cooking/pot washing scene shows how Jack's mood has deteriorated.

Just thinkin out loud! There are all kinds of ways to do it.

[Brown Eyes]

Bump
 

[Ellemeno]

Amanda, thanks for bumping.  I was behind the times with this thread.  Just read the last four pages. 

Jane, re the beginnings of the Pierre Tremblay board:  I so strongly want it known for sure that it was never meant to be exclusive.  I invited many IMDb BBM board regulars over to it.  If a person loved BBM, played well with others, had been around long enough that in our paranoia we didn't think they were a troll, they got invited.  And if we thought they could keep the secret off of the main board.

Bookends - I just noticed a new (to me) one tonight while nakymaton, Front Ranger, Meryl and I were watching it together in chat.  In the Signal bar, Jack and Ennis alternate glancing at each other without making eye contact.  In Ennis's trailer, Ennis and Alma Jr. alternate glancing at each other without making eye contact.

[welliwont]

Amanda, thanks for bumping.  I was behind the times with this thread.  Just read the last four pages. 

Jane, re the beginnings of the Pierre Tremblay board:  I so strongly want it known for sure that it was never meant to be exclusive.  I invited many IMDb BBM board regulars over to it.  If a person loved BBM, played well with others, had been around long enough that in our paranoia we didn't think they were a troll, they got invited.  And if we thought they could keep the secret off of the main board.

Ah Elle, that's just something  I made up in my head!   

[Brown Eyes]

Bookends - I just noticed a new (to me) one tonight while nakymaton, Front Ranger, Meryl and I were watching it together in chat.  In the Signal bar, Jack and Ennis alternate glancing at each other without making eye contact.  In Ennis's trailer, Ennis and Alma Jr. alternate glancing at each other without making eye contact.

Very cool.  Never noticed that before.  Jack and Ennis do this in Aguirre's trailer too. 

[Garry_LH]

Sorry I haven't read all of this thread, but I'm ah losing my train of thought, so... if this has been mentioned already...

Mostly crops, hogs, and cattle in my area of Missouri, so I'm not up on how folks look at, or think of, sheepherders. Or, how they would have looked upon them in 1963 Wyoming. All I got are fragments of history of how cattle men more than just disliked sheepherders. I'm wondering if it might have been a common joke among folks of that time and place to make assumptions about what herders did with one another over the lonely months up in those high pastures? (not to mention all the old sheep jokes as well)

Could it be Ennis didn't want Alma to know Jack was the man he had spent the summer with before they got married? We've already seen Ennis likes to do what Alma hates, as Mz. Proulx wrote. Might have naming Jack as the 'man' he spent the summer with herding sheep with been a bit too much information for Alma in Ennis's mind?  That knowing Ennis and Jack herded sheep together might have been the catalyst for Alma to put two and two together, this was the reason Ennis lied to Alma about how he knows Jack.  And for sure, Ennis coming up with the idea of Jack being a fishing buddy to set up future excuses for going off with Jack, to me, that would have had to be something Ennis had thought out before hand. Like, if Jack ever shows up again, what am I gonna tell Alma. (dang, I shouldn't be writing this early of a morning)

The level of denial, if not out right mental disconnect in the characters in Brokeback Mountain, is scary. More so, because I recognize it all too well.

Just a thought on all of the meaning of slang terms in the story and film.  1963 rural America was still rather isolated from the rest of the country. Even in the seventies, I could drive a couple hundred miles north into Iowa, and the use of slang was different enough I'd have to ask about it's usage. Even so, to me, 'wrang it out' was pretty straight forward in the context in which it was used. Which as with a lot of other words and phrases in American English, the meaning is more in the context of the discussion and inflection of the speaker rather than strict definition of words or terms. It's part of the reason I really wish this bit of dialog had been contained in the film.

“I wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you” At least for me as an old mid Missouri hick, it would be, I masturbated a hundred times with your imagine in my mind.

[injest]

yes, cattlemen hated sheepherders....one, their were a awful lot of foriegners herding sheep with their foreign ways of talking and doing things...two, it was thought that sheep ruined grasslands cause they ate the grass down to the ground whereas a cow tends to move around more and isn't 'as hard' on the pastures as sheep (and as everyone knows, cows are king in the American West)

combine xenophobia and myth and you have a lot of people saying anything to run down that other group...and as we know, accusing someone of being gay 
is the worst possible thing in some people's eyes...even TODAY...

so I can see that Ennis would not want to talk too much about where he had been that summer (or with who) although he HAD to have known before he went up there what the rumors were....which puts his nervousness and behaviour at the first of the movie in a different light!! Taking a job as a sheepherder was definitely 'bottomfeeding'...a job for foriegners...oh, crap, maybe I need to start a new thread to discuss THIS...puts a different light on Aquirre's behaviour too...the contempt he showed...

[southendmd]

bump