Author Topic: Do you believe in evolution?  (Read 15975 times)

injest

  • Guest
Do you believe in evolution?
« on: April 24, 2008, 08:09:19 am »
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

interesting study of a group of lizard introduced onto an island that in a few decades developed a new digestive tract and a bigger head.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 08:25:04 am »
I dont know if I buy totally into the whole evolution theory.  From a scientific point of view it is a very interesting concept.  Yet let us not forget, they still dont know how life began.  Nope no theory.  There is just the old primordal soup theory.  I'd have to get out my text book to explain, and if I must well....ok

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 09:07:55 am »
Personally, I'm kind of skeptical about this whole "earth going around the sun" thing.

Gravity, too. It's only a theory.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 10:24:39 am »
Personally, I'm kind of skeptical about this whole "earth going around the sun" thing.

Gravity, too. It's only a theory.

Thats completely different and sarcastic.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 10:26:58 am »
and i guess you believe the earth is flat

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 10:37:24 am »
Plants, animals and humans evolved.  No question there.  My experience has been that scientists have no way of knowing how life came into exsistence.  And im not saying I agree with Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden either.  Its just that there are no scientific facts as to how life began.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 09:57:13 pm »
and i guess you believe the earth is flat

 ;D Yep, you get the picture.

(Sorry about the sarcasm. There are a lot of people who don't believe that species develop from other species by means of mutations and natural selection - which is the subject of the study that Jess linked to. And the theory of evolution doesn't include the origin of life as a whole - just how it developed once it got started. A lot of people combine them - and worse, mix them with the origin of the Earth, which is probably better understood than the origin of life, but which isn't the result of evolution.

The theory of evolution is a theory in the scientific sense, meaning that it has successfully predicted a lot of stuff in disciplines as different as molecular biology and paleontology. The origin of life, on the other hand, is something that scientists throw out crazy ideas about, test them, and decide that they aren't that great, all the time. Very different.)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 10:42:50 pm »
Plants, animals and humans evolved.  No question there.  My experience has been that scientists have no way of knowing how life came into exsistence.  And im not saying I agree with Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden either.  Its just that there are no scientific facts as to how life began.

Absolutely.  It's a fact and there is a multitude of proof and evidence everywhere in nature and in the literature.

Now, how life originated is a completely different field of study.  It's called abiogenesis, the study of how life on Earth emerged from non-life.  Personally I feel that in a few decades, maybe less, science will figure that out as well.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 09:44:39 am »
Absolutely.  It's a fact and there is a multitude of proof and evidence everywhere in nature and in the literature.

Now, how life originated is a completely different field of study.  It's called abiogenesis, the study of how life on Earth emerged from non-life.  Personally I feel that in a few decades, maybe less, science will figure that out as well.

Really del?  You believe scientists will have a theory about abiogenesis in a couple decades or less?  Its possible, but I dont believe that they will, and if they do come up with a theory I doubt they will have as much evidence to back it as they have with the theory of evolution.


Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 08:22:58 pm »
Really del?  You believe scientists will have a theory about abiogenesis in a couple decades or less?  Its possible, but I dont believe that they will

Yep.

"Essential to the spontaneous origin of life was the availability of organic molecules as building blocks. The famous "prebiotic soup" experiment by Stanley Miller (Miller 1953, Miller-Urey experiment) had shown that amino acids, the building blocks of proteins, arose among other small organic molecules spontaneously in the lab by sparking a mixture of methane, hydrogen, ammonia and water."

You can do the above experiment in your kitchen and get the same results.  All you need is an electrical current to stimulate the mixture.

This is a good read on the subject:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/originoflife.html#synthesis

Quote
if they do come up with a theory I doubt they will have as much evidence to back it as they have with the theory of evolution

Well, it would depend on what you think is satisfactory for evidence.  If scientists could find the right combination of conditions and ingredients or whatnot and spark life (precursors to life), would you find that sufficient evidence?  Basically scientists would have proven that given XYZ in situation ABC you get LIFE.

But is that the way it really happened?

Scientists will never be able to say that's EXACTLY how it happened.

The best they will be able to say is "We've proved that given XYZABC you can get life (precursors to life) and earth had XYZABC at ancient point GG in time..."

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 08:35:23 pm »
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/

this seemed like a good spot to link the latest Ben Stein movie about dogma and censorship in academia. I saw it and thought it was very funny with a serious point about censorship.

I personally see natural selection as the logical driving force in life. The "selfish gene" is determined to survive. But, I am saddened at how academia has become as dogmatic, and rigid in its beliefs as the 19th Victorians whom they condemn. Opposing points of view outside the orthodoxy just aren't readily expressed anymore in academia.

Offline David In Indy

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,447
  • You've Got Male
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 09:23:22 pm »
I've always wondered if we evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?

I'm not sure if I believe in evolution, but I don't buy into this "Adam and Eve" deal either. But I DO believe however it happened, it was God's will and he caused it to happen. :)

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 09:51:29 pm »
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/

this seemed like a good spot to link the latest Ben Stein movie about dogma and censorship in academia. I saw it and thought it was very funny with a serious point about censorship.

I personally see natural selection as the logical driving force in life. The "selfish gene" is determined to survive. But, I am saddened at how academia has become as dogmatic, and rigid in its beliefs as the 19th Victorians whom they condemn. Opposing points of view outside the orthodoxy just aren't readily expressed anymore in academia.

The minute I saw a commercial for "Expelled" I knew it would be garbage.  Ben Stein's supposed "zinger" line that 'stumps' the teacher while in a class of evolution is to ask "Where did life come from?" 

I wanted to reply, "You're in the wrong class, Stein!"

Here's a good read about why the movie is bunk:

http://www.expelledexposed.com/
http://www.pandasthumb.org/
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 10:19:44 pm »

I've always wondered if we evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?



If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

     Humans did not evolve from modern apes, but humans and modern apes shared a common ancestor, a species that no longer exists. Because we share a recent common ancestor with chimpanzees and gorillas, we have many anatomical, genetic, biochemical, and even behavioral similarities with these African great apes. We are less similar to the Asian apes--orangutans and gibbons--and even less similar to monkeys, because we share common ancestors with these groups in the more distant past.

     Evolution is a branching or splitting process in which populations split off from one another and gradually become different. As the two groups become isolated from each other, they stop sharing genes, and eventually genetic differences increase until members of the groups can no longer interbreed. At this point, they have become separate species. Through time, these two species might give rise to new species, and so on through millennia.


From: http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/appendix.html

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2008, 09:39:18 am »
You know whats really cool about evolution?  Is that we, humans, are still evolving.  All creatures flora and fauna a like are elvolving.   Right?  It would be really cool to use some of that other percentage of our brain we dont use and see what we can do with it. 

But then again what about all the hormones our kids are getting in milk, meat and the processed food we serve them?  Our 12 year olds are looking more like 18 year olds.  Do you agree that the younger population of people actually have different attributes both feminine and masculine as once was.  Is that evolution? 

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2008, 06:24:48 pm »
The minute I saw a commercial for "Expelled" I knew it would be garbage.  Ben Stein's supposed "zinger" line that 'stumps' the teacher while in a class of evolution is to ask "Where did life come from?" 

I wanted to reply, "You're in the wrong class, Stein!"

Here's a good read about why the movie is bunk:

http://www.expelledexposed.com/
http://www.pandasthumb.org/
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins

I disagree, it is funny and makes very good points about censorship by the academic left on college campuses (campi?)

watch the film before you critique, it will be on dvd soon.

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2008, 06:32:21 pm »
You know whats really cool about evolution?  Is that we, humans, are still evolving.  All creatures flora and fauna a like are elvolving.   Right?  It would be really cool to use some of that other percentage of our brain we dont use and see what we can do with it. 

But then again what about all the hormones our kids are getting in milk, meat and the processed food we serve them?  Our 12 year olds are looking more like 18 year olds.  Do you agree that the younger population of people actually have different attributes both feminine and masculine as once was.  Is that evolution? 


no, those height and weight changes are occurring due to changes in nutrition, causing the human form to manifest itself differently from the same genome.

evolution is simply a result of the process known as "the survival of the fittest". generational changes in the genome result in changes over long periods of time. if you have a child who because of a genetic change can read minds, he or she may be better able to procreate and therefore pass on their changed genes. if you have a child that thru a genetic change has no skull and the brain is exposed, that child will not live long enough to reproduce and therefore that genetic change will not be passed on.

evolution then occurs when genetic changes are made which better enable the individual to survive and pass on the change to subsequent generations. 

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2008, 01:34:19 pm »
I disagree, it is funny and makes very good points about censorship by the academic left on college campuses (campi?)

watch the film before you critique, it will be on dvd soon.

Perhaps you should read about the people and opinions Stein & company misrepresented and misled in his movie before you further support it.

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2008, 02:11:41 pm »
Perhaps you should read about the people and opinions Stein & company misrepresented and misled in his movie before you further support it.

Del I wouldn't call my opinion that the movie is funny and asks interesting questions support.

I don't have a dog in Stein's hunt. No money invested, and I am not a follower of the "intelligent design" movement, much less the "creationist" movement. :laugh:

natural selection is logical to me. I am however very sensitive to censorship, and the censorship that is occurring on college campuses, perpetrated by the academic left is largely unknown to the public. That, and the film's entertainment value are the sum total of why I would recommend to anyone that they rent the dvd.

nothing more.  :)

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2008, 07:58:37 pm »
Del I wouldn't call my opinion that the movie is funny and asks interesting questions support.

I don't have a dog in Stein's hunt. No money invested, and I am not a follower of the "intelligent design" movement, much less the "creationist" movement. :laugh:

natural selection is logical to me. I am however very sensitive to censorship, and the censorship that is occurring on college campuses, perpetrated by the academic left is largely unknown to the public. That, and the film's entertainment value are the sum total of why I would recommend to anyone that they rent the dvd.

nothing more.  :)

Well, the problem is that what they are supporting is religious and crying censorship on trying to get their unmistakably religious/crackpot views seen as 'scientific' with no supported data and anyone who disagrees with them as 'censoring' them.  They peg themselves as 'victims' when they claim they have an alternate view that's every bit as good as evolution and it's been 'suppressed'.

That's not the case at all and is extremely misleading.

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2008, 09:10:00 pm »
Well, the problem is that what they are supporting is religious and crying censorship on trying to get their unmistakably religious/crackpot views seen as 'scientific' with no supported data and anyone who disagrees with them as 'censoring' them.  They peg themselves as 'victims' when they claim they have an alternate view that's every bit as good as evolution and it's been 'suppressed'.

That's not the case at all and is extremely misleading.


there is nothing about what you have said above that is correct or fair, either about this film, or about the movement on college campuses advocating intelligent design.  there are serious scholars in academia that wish to offer intelligent design as an alternative for serious discussion. the academic left attempts to shut them down, and thereby censoring an alternative point of view. futhermore the academic left is conflating the "creationist" movement, which is religiously based, and the intelligent design movement which is not.

to characterize the views offered on "Expelled" as either good or bad is a red herring to free discussion. natural selection without an intelligent designer, is no more or less "good" than natural selection with an intelligent designer. the study of biological "evolution" can not be understood or studied as one would study math or physics. a math problem has a solution, an evolutionary hypothesis as to the origin of life has no one solution, it merely offers alternatives.

and as for someone to call serious scholars names such as "crackpot" and "religious" is seemingly the pot calling the kettle beige. just who is treating science as a religion and who is not? on this topic, the academic left acts much the way the church behaves when a central tenet of the faith is challenged.

why is the academic left so afraid of the marketplace of ideas? are the ideas of the left so shallow that any alternatives produce such a furious reaction?

 shall we reignite the Santa Hermandad to protect academics and their ensconced careers? which are mostly at the tax payers expense I might add 

injest

  • Guest
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2008, 09:18:42 pm »
ok how is "intellegent design" NOT religious? Does it not require a 'being'...ie an intellegence that we can not prove exists??

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2008, 09:33:23 pm »
ok how is "intellegent design" NOT religious? Does it not require a 'being'...ie an intellegence that we can not prove exists??

a belief in an intelligence which sparked the origins of life does not require a religion. there are agnostics which have indicated they are open to intelligent design.

the "intelligence" in question can be an actual intelligent being, or a force in the universe that orders matter and energy in a perceptably intelligent manner.

none of this necessarily implies the Judeo Christian God in Heaven.

I personally am not sure about intelligent design, I have long believed in natural selection that has its origins in the random forces in the universe - chiefly entropy.

I personally am not particularly driven to find an "intelligent" designer, but I wish to be open to the idea. I definitely reject creationism.

My objection to the manner in which those who wish to merely discuss intelligent design are treated in academia, is that I see this treatment as intolerant and censoring. The academic left has long established themselves as the one of the most intolerant elements in today's society. While masking themselves as "tolerant", they are routinely intolerant towards those with whom they disagree. I really can't see much of a practical the difference between the leftist academics dominating today's colleges and universities,  and the Bible thumpers on the right. The only difference is of whom they are intolerant.

This whole fracas about this film is a case in point. What is the harm in watching a film that is both humorous and makes an attempts to make a serious point?

This reminds me of the stupidity of the Bible thumpers back in 2005  when they sounded alarms over "Brokeback Mountain". Remember the stupid vitriol that came out of the pulpit over a film that they characterized as a "gay cowboy" movie "attempting to advance the homosexual agenda". And which they never took the time to watch, at least in public.

Censorship and intolerance are censorship and intolerance, no matter how you slice it.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2008, 11:28:37 pm »
a belief in an intelligence which sparked the origins of life does not require a religion. there are agnostics which have indicated they are open to intelligent design.

the "intelligence" in question can be an actual intelligent being, or a force in the universe that orders matter and energy in a perceptably intelligent manner.

none of this necessarily implies the Judeo Christian God in Heaven.

I personally am not sure about intelligent design, I have long believed in natural selection that has its origins in the random forces in the universe - chiefly entropy.

I personally am not particularly driven to find an "intelligent" designer, but I wish to be open to the idea. I definitely reject creationism.

My objection to the manner in which those who wish to merely discuss intelligent design are treated in academia, is that I see this treatment as intolerant and censoring. The academic left has long established themselves as the one of the most intolerant elements in today's society. While masking themselves as "tolerant", they are routinely intolerant towards those with whom they disagree. I really can't see much of a practical the difference between the leftist academics dominating today's colleges and universities,  and the Bible thumpers on the right. The only difference is of whom they are intolerant.

This whole fracas about this film is a case in point. What is the harm in watching a film that is both humorous and makes an attempts to make a serious point?

This reminds me of the stupidity of the Bible thumpers back in 2005  when they sounded alarms over "Brokeback Mountain". Remember the stupid vitriol that came out of the pulpit over a film that they characterized as a "gay cowboy" movie "attempting to advance the homosexual agenda". And which they never took the time to watch, at least in public.

Censorship and intolerance are censorship and intolerance, no matter how you slice it.

Sorry, but despite what you have read, there is no factual data supporting ID.  It is a religious argument - a rehash of Creationism - and has no place in the academic community except in religious classes.

Are you saying that any crackpot idea has a place in academia?

That we should include Faith Healers in medical school?  That to keep Faith Healing from being taught in medical school is censorship?

Do you agree with that argument?  That's basically what you are saying.

To explain the origin of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origin of the Designer. You have to say something like 'God was always there', and if you allow yourself that kind of lazy way out, you might as well just say 'DNA was always there', or "Life was always there', and be done with it. --Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker : Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design p. 141

"In December 2005, federal Judge John E. Jones III ruled that ID must meet the same fate that creationism met in 1987 when the Supreme Court ruled religious doctrines can't be promoted in secular institutions under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Judge Jones wrote in his decision regarding a policy of the Dover, Pennsylvania, school district that added ID to the school's biology program:

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy...." " Two scientists often cited by defenders of ID are Michael Behe, author of Darwin's Black Box (The Free Press, 1996), and William Dembski, author of Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology (Cambridge University Press, 1998). .... However, their arguments are identical in function to the creationists' arguments: rather than provide positive evidence for their own position, they mainly try to find weaknesses in natural selection. As already noted, however, even if their arguments are successful against natural selection, that would not increase the probability of ID." Excerpted from "Intelligent Design".

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2008, 11:35:06 am »
to characterize the views offered on "Expelled" as either good or bad is a red herring to free discussion. natural selection without an intelligent designer, is no more or less "good" than natural selection with an intelligent designer. the study of biological "evolution" can not be understood or studied as one would study math or physics. a math problem has a solution, an evolutionary hypothesis as to the origin of life has no one solution, it merely offers alternatives.

and as for someone to call serious scholars names such as "crackpot" and "religious" is seemingly the pot calling the kettle beige. just who is treating science as a religion and who is not? on this topic, the academic left acts much the way the church behaves when a central tenet of the faith is challenged.

There's a lot of aggressively manufactured confusion about what a "theory" is. A very well-written, concise comparison of scientific fact, hypothesis and theory can be found at http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

Quote
Scientific Law: This is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and univseral, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. . . .
Specifically, scientific laws must be simple, true, universal, and absolute. They represent the cornerstone of scientific discovery, because if a law ever did not apply, then all science based upon that law would collapse.

Hypothesis: This is an educated guess based upon observation. It is a rational explanation of a single event or phenomenon based upon what is observed, but which has not been proved. Most hypotheses can be supported or refuted by experimentation or continued observation.

Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. [bolding in this statement added] One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

The very title of this discussion -- do you 'believe' in evolution, suggests the insistence of anti-evolutionists that evolution is a religious or anti-religious belief, and the subsequent corruption of public discussion about it.  From that flows the familiar cliches about it taking "more faith to believe in evolution than in creation" and that creationism and its offspring should be given equal time in the interest of presenting "all viewpoints."


The Wilstar site had an interesting take on creationism and intelligent design as science:

Quote
Real scientific theories must be falsifiable. So-called "theories" based on religion, such as creationism or intelligent design are, therefore, not scientific theories. They are not falsifiable and they do not follow the scientific method.


Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 01:19:44 pm »
Sorry, but despite what you have read, there is no factual data supporting ID.  It is a religious argument - a rehash of Creationism - and has no place in the academic community except in religious classes.

Are you saying that any crackpot idea has a place in academia?

That we should include Faith Healers in medical school?  That to keep Faith Healing from being taught in medical school is censorship?

Do you agree with that argument?  That's basically what you are saying.

To explain the origin of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origin of the Designer. You have to say something like 'God was always there', and if you allow yourself that kind of lazy way out, you might as well just say 'DNA was always there', or "Life was always there', and be done with it. --Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker : Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design p. 141

"In December 2005, federal Judge John E. Jones III ruled that ID must meet the same fate that creationism met in 1987 when the Supreme Court ruled religious doctrines can't be promoted in secular institutions under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Judge Jones wrote in his decision regarding a policy of the Dover, Pennsylvania, school district that added ID to the school's biology program:

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy...." " Two scientists often cited by defenders of ID are Michael Behe, author of Darwin's Black Box (The Free Press, 1996), and William Dembski, author of Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology (Cambridge University Press, 1998). .... However, their arguments are identical in function to the creationists' arguments: rather than provide positive evidence for their own position, they mainly try to find weaknesses in natural selection. As already noted, however, even if their arguments are successful against natural selection, that would not increase the probability of ID." Excerpted from "Intelligent Design".


there again, you are conflating intelligent design with creationism and calling it crackpot. I don't see that, and I think that there is nothing to fear in an intelligent discussion of this theory on college campuses. however, there is a great deal to fear in the type of censorship that the film exposes, directly thru the interviews, and indirectly by creating a reaction on the left which exposes the true intent of the left.

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2008, 03:27:38 pm »
there again, you are conflating intelligent design with creationism and calling it crackpot. I don't see that, ...


ID is one variety of creationism, the neo-creationism. It tries hard to appear more modern and scientific (and distances itself from Old-Earth creationism and Young-Earth creationism), but is creationism nonetheless.

The hub of the whole ID movement is the Discovery Institute, a christian-conservative think tank. The Discovery Institute is a non-profit foundation which draws its financial sources from 22 other foundations, of which at least two-thirds state explicitly religious missions.

Furthermore it has authored a political and social action plan, the "Wedge Strategy". From wikipedia:

"The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat [scientific] materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions"[2] and to "affirm the reality of God."[3] Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.[4]


Note: the Discovery Institute has initially denied the Wedge Strategy, but in 2005 admitted it is a manifesto of theirs.

I know the weaknesses of wikipedia, but the articles about the Wedge Strategy and the Discovery Institute are packed with lists of referrences, so it's easy to have a look at the sources.

Wikipedia article on Discovery Institute

Wikipedia article on Wedge Strategy


Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2008, 05:09:41 pm »

ID is one variety of creationism, the neo-creationism. It tries hard to appear more modern and scientific (and distances itself from Old-Earth creationism and Young-Earth creationism), but is creationism nonetheless.

The hub of the whole ID movement is the Discovery Institute, a christian-conservative think tank. The Discovery Institute is a non-profit foundation which draws its financial sources from 22 other foundations, of which at least two-thirds state explicitly religious missions.

Furthermore it has authored a political and social action plan, the "Wedge Strategy". From wikipedia:

"The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat [scientific] materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions"[2] and to "affirm the reality of God."[3] Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.[4]


Note: the Discovery Institute has initially denied the Wedge Strategy, but in 2005 admitted it is a manifesto of theirs.

I know the weaknesses of wikipedia, but the articles about the Wedge Strategy and the Discovery Institute are packed with lists of references, so it's easy to have a look at the sources.

Wikipedia article on Discovery Institute

Wikipedia article on Wedge Strategy



that is interesting, and seriously thanks for the research, but if proponents of intelligent design, whom I know, are not attempting to link intelligent design to old fashioned Biblical creationism in their argumentation, why should I believe that they are secret creationists?

If a Republican tells you that all Democrats are Marxists, and then to prove their point the Republican pulls up web sites "proving" that Marxism is the secret agenda of Democrats, but when talking to live Democrats you can not find any who are advocating Marxism, shouldn't you reject the "Marxian Democrat" theory as just an extreme polemic on the part of their political enemies? I think that this is what is happening to the debate over the debate over Intelligent Design.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2008, 09:01:44 pm »
that is interesting, and seriously thanks for the research, but if proponents of intelligent design, whom I know, are not attempting to link intelligent design to old fashioned Biblical creationism in their argumentation, why should I believe that they are secret creationists?

If a Republican tells you that all Democrats are Marxists, and then to prove their point the Republican pulls up web sites "proving" that Marxism is the secret agenda of Democrats, but when talking to live Democrats you can not find any who are advocating Marxism, shouldn't you reject the "Marxian Democrat" theory as just an extreme polemic on the part of their political enemies? I think that this is what is happening to the debate over the debate over Intelligent Design.

I'm sorry Broke but the majority of the scientific community and the courts have reviewed ID materials and arguments and they've all concluded that it's just rehashed Creationism.  The ID people have introduced nothing new and nothing that can be considered a science.  ID proponents are trying to force academia to accept ID as a science since that will give credibility to their position not because they have a credible position in the first place.

injest

  • Guest
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2008, 09:58:59 pm »
there again, you are conflating intelligent design with creationism and calling it crackpot. I don't see that, and I think that there is nothing to fear in an intelligent discussion of this theory on college campuses. however, there is a great deal to fear in the type of censorship that the film exposes, directly thru the interviews, and indirectly by creating a reaction on the left which exposes the true intent of the left.

well I listend to Ben chatting with Glenn this morning and HE kept talking about God...and he is the star...so if HE says it is creationism...I will go with HIS opinion.

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2008, 12:22:29 pm »
I'm sorry Broke but the majority of the scientific community and the courts have reviewed ID materials and arguments and they've all concluded that it's just rehashed Creationism.  The ID people have introduced nothing new and nothing that can be considered a science.  ID proponents are trying to force academia to accept ID as a science since that will give credibility to their position not because they have a credible position in the first place.

oh, by the way, Happy Floralia!

what courts? how could this possibly be a legal issue? what we are talking about is just an academic debate and the attempts to "legally" silence it by peer pressure within academia. I don't think that anyone has seriously charged the academic left with criminal behavior, and that is not seriously mentioned in the Stein's film, at least that I saw.  ???

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2008, 06:42:03 pm »
I not only believe in physical evolution, I believe in evolutionary psychology, a far more controversial theory.

Also, it seems quite possible to me to believe in both evolution and God. I'm agnostic, but if there is a "God," what's to keep him/her from coming up with the idea for evolution and then getting it rolling? The system is complex and unpredictable and amazing enough to match all the other stuff God created. If in fact s/he did.

I know this is going to sound horribly offensive, and I wish there was some way to soften it, but what's with the propensity of people to "dumb down" their concepts of God's work? I mean, creationism just seems way too simple and obvious. Just like the concepts of heaven and hell seem too simple and too obvious. If you look around at all the other things that a God, if there is one, would have been responsible for devising -- galaxies, light, our brains, an ant -- everything is exponentially more complex than creationism, heaven, hell, etc. I guess I'd just give God more credit than that.

Note: I'm not directing this last line of inquiry to any specific poster here, and I hope no one has been overly offended.



Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2008, 07:01:49 pm »
Since religion by and large thrives on keeping people as much as possible in ignorance and on providing them with simple, clear-cut solutions to life's and death's complex, unresolved (and therefore frightening) questions, in exchange for not being inquisitive, following their leaders unquestioningly and never challenging the "truth" as written and preached - of course it has to, as you say, "dumb down" natural science and everything amazingly complex and dauntingly challenging in the world and the universe. That's the whole point of religion. The comfort of simple certainties, rituals and superstition in the face of the (yet) unknown, (yet) incomprehensible events and the petrifying seeming randomness of life and death.

Just my opinion, of course.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2008, 08:41:47 pm »
oh, by the way, Happy Floralia!

Thanks, It's one of my favorite holidays!  ;D

Quote
what courts? how could this possibly be a legal issue? what we are talking about is just an academic debate and the attempts to "legally" silence it by peer pressure within academia. I don't think that anyone has seriously charged the academic left with criminal behavior, and that is not seriously mentioned in the Stein's film, at least that I saw.  ???

ID has gone before the courts in some areas - I quoted a bit in one of my last posts - because ID proponents are trying to force it into schools, misrepresenting what ID actually is, which is illegal.  I'm sure Stein & company wouldn't mention the court cases, because ID keeps losing.

"In December 2005, federal Judge John E. Jones III ruled that ID must meet the same fate that creationism met in 1987 when the Supreme Court ruled religious doctrines can't be promoted in secular institutions under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Judge Jones wrote in his decision regarding a policy of the Dover, Pennsylvania, school district that added ID to the school's biology program

Read more on Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District



Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2008, 09:05:47 pm »
Since religion by and large thrives on keeping people as much as possible in ignorance and on providing them with simple, clear-cut solutions to life's and death's complex, unresolved (and therefore frightening) questions, in exchange for not being inquisitive, following their leaders unquestioningly and never challenging the "truth" as written and preached - of course it has to, as you say, "dumb down" natural science and everything amazingly complex and dauntingly challenging in the world and the universe. That's the whole point of religion. The comfort of simple certainties, rituals and superstition in the face of the (yet) unknown, (yet) incomprehensible events and the petrifying seeming randomness of life and death.

Just my opinion, of course.

Well said.

I tried to find Carl Sagan's quote, but I couldn't so I'll just put his meaning as best I can.  He was continually surprised that religious people didn't take in the awe-inspiring discoveries of science and exclaim how BIG their god was - much bigger than they'd thought - and embrace the idea.  Instead he found that people felt threatened and wanted to keep their god small and so would say "No no no, it's not that way at all", in the face of facts.

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2008, 09:57:23 pm »
Since religion by and large thrives on keeping people as much as possible in ignorance and on providing them with simple, clear-cut solutions to life's and death's complex, unresolved (and therefore frightening) questions, in exchange for not being inquisitive, following their leaders unquestioningly and never challenging the "truth" as written and preached - of course it has to, as you say, "dumb down" natural science and everything amazingly complex and dauntingly challenging in the world and the universe. That's the whole point of religion. The comfort of simple certainties, rituals and superstition in the face of the (yet) unknown, (yet) incomprehensible events and the petrifying seeming randomness of life and death.

I see your point, though you state it more negatively than I would.

I agree that religion helps people with answers and rituals in the face of the unknown, the incomprehensible and the random.

I don't agree that religious people are required not to be inquisitive, to follow their leaders unquestioningly and never challenge what they say. That happens, of course. Probably among athiests, too. But there are many intelligent, inquisitive religious people who question and challenge their and other religious beliefs as they would anything else. They just happen to wind up believing anyway.

But yes, the comfort of simplicity is one good explanation. The explanation I had in mind was more about the limits of human imagination.

I think of this situation as similar to the fact that the aliens in Star Trek (at least the first version, the only one I'm really familiar with) are almost always humanoid. Anyone who believes in evolution (as, I would guess, Gene Roddenberry did?) knows that the odds are, well, astronomical against creatures of a distant planet having a head with hair, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, teeth, tongues, two hands with five fingers each, etc. (Let alone speaking English!  ;)) But I think that coming up with realistically exotic yet intelligent aliens on a weekly basis was too difficult.





Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2008, 10:50:19 pm »
I not only believe in physical evolution, I believe in evolutionary psychology, a far more controversial theory.

Also, it seems quite possible to me to believe in both evolution and God. I'm agnostic, but if there is a "God," what's to keep him/her from coming up with the idea for evolution and then getting it rolling? The system is complex and unpredictable and amazing enough to match all the other stuff God created. If in fact s/he did.

I know this is going to sound horribly offensive, and I wish there was some way to soften it, but what's with the propensity of people to "dumb down" their concepts of God's work? I mean, creationism just seems way too simple and obvious. Just like the concepts of heaven and hell seem too simple and too obvious. If you look around at all the other things that a God, if there is one, would have been responsible for devising -- galaxies, light, our brains, an ant -- everything is exponentially more complex than creationism, heaven, hell, etc. I guess I'd just give God more credit than that.

Note: I'm not directing this last line of inquiry to any specific poster here, and I hope no one has been overly offended.



I'm not the least bit offended, I'm not a creationist either. When I go to church I just sing hymns and doze thru the rest. Natural selection has always seems logical to me.
As I said earlier, I don't have a dog or even a sling shot in Stein's hunt.

What is evolutionary psychology? Does it involve meditation, brown rice and quartz crystals?


Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2008, 10:28:34 am »
I'm not the least bit offended, I'm not a creationist either. When I go to church I just sing hymns and doze thru the rest. Natural selection has always seems logical to me.

Well, I didn't mean you specifically. I know you've got a pretty thick skin.  ;)  But I hate to reinforce the stereotype of all liberals as scorning religion. Especially because I told you a week ago or so that I don't do that.

Quote
What is evolutionary psychology? Does it involve meditation, brown rice and quartz crystals?

No. If it involved brown rice, it would require more sacrifices than I'm willing to make.

I'll take the lazy way out and quote Wikipedia:

Quote
Evolutionary psychology (abbreviated EP) is a theoretical approach to psychology that attempts to explain mental and psychological traits—such as memory, perception, or language—as adaptations, that is, as the functional products of natural selection or sexual selection. This approach brings an adaptationist way of thinking about biological mechanisms such as the immune system into the field of psychology and approaches psychological mechanisms in a similar way. Evolutionary psychology focuses on how evolution has shaped the mind and behavior. Though applicable to any organism with a nervous system, most research in evolutionary psychology focuses on humans.

Evolutionary psychologists see human behavior as having evolved to suit the primeval human environment, in which ancestors of modern humans lived in hunter-gatherer tribes in Africa. They conclude, for example, that humans have inherited special mental capacities for acquiring speech, making it nearly automatic, while inheriting no such capacity for reading and writing. Other adaptations, according to these theories, might include the abilities to read others' emotions, to discern kin from non-kin, to identify and prefer better mates, to reciprocate help, and so on. Evolutionary psychology describes organisms as in conflict with others of their species, including mates and relatives. For example, mother mammals and their young offspring sometimes struggle over weaning, which benefits mother more than the child. Humans, however, have a marked capacity for cooperation as well.

Evolutionary psychologists see those behaviors or aspects of society that are nearly universal, such as parent-child conflicts, as more likely to reflect evolved adaptations. On the other hand, aspects of human behavior that vary considerably, such as what language one speaks, are understood to be products of culture.

Charles Darwin proposed the theory of evolution in the 19th century. Modern writers such as Desmond Morris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Steven Pinker have popularized evolutionary psychology. Closely related fields are human behavioral ecology, dual inheritance theory, and sociobiology.

If anyone is curious enough to read a whole book about it, an excellent intro and overview is Robert Wright's "The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are."




Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2008, 12:25:40 pm »
Well, I didn't mean you specifically. I know you've got a pretty thick skin.  ;)  But I hate to reinforce the stereotype of all liberals as scorning religion. Especially because I told you a week ago or so that I don't do that.

No. If it involved brown rice, it would require more sacrifices than I'm willing to make.

I'll take the lazy way out and quote Wikipedia:

If anyone is curious enough to read a whole book about it, an excellent intro and overview is Robert Wright's "The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are."





What I see here in the Wiki article makes sense to me. So I guess you and I are on the "same page" on that issue. (that is kinda scary)

The human brain is just another gland secreting hormones and a variety of communicator and interceptor chemicals used to send "information". It makes sense to me that our psychology is very heavily influenced by our biological being.

Ennis was not only taciturn, shy and largely uncommunicative and negative because of his background of deprivation, he was probably naturally a shy negative person.
Jack was a demonstrative and hopeful person, probably because he was naturally that way.

That doesn't mean that the environment has no influence. Ennis and Jack are also products of their geographical reference.The culture of the rural Rocky Mountain west arose in response to the geography of the area. How people are able to make their livings, and adapt to the forces of nature, affects the culture. This is called geographic determinism - E Annis Proulx seems to be a believer in geographic determinism. I think that is one of the chief reasons her stories have such a truthful impact.

So, the same self reliant individualistic culture shaped the two boys, but they turned out to be different in many ways. Why? Because of their psychological differences rooted in their biology.

Don't you like the way I linked this comment right back into Brokeback?

Offline ZK

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,206
Re: Do you believe in evolution?
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2008, 05:28:33 am »
Yep I do believe in evolution. As to Adam and Eve my late Father suggested they were the first to be "enlightened"