Why did Jacks' parents not go to his funeral ????

[optom3]

This may have been discussed before,if so I apologise.
It occurred to me while posting on the confetti quiz,that I had not given any thought to this matter before.

Mrs.Twist obviously loved her son dearly,and even O.M.T in his way seemed to. So it seems strange that they did not attend the funeral of their only child.
I assume it was a pretty long drive for them,but even taking that into consideration it is odd.
Ennis has never been further than round a coffee pot,yet he drives all the way to the Twists' ranch,to see if they want Jack's wishes carried out.
So any ideas from anyone out there, would be welcomed.

[Lynne]

I have always thought this was another exanple of Jack's father having no respect nor affection for Jack.  You'll remember that OMT 'never once came to see (Jack) ride'.

I think Jack's mother would have wanted to attend desperately, but I doubt she hade much to say about it.

Sad topic, but a good one!

[Artiste]

Good subject optom !

At least, Mrs. Twist or Mr. Twist contacted twice Ennis and Jack's boss, when these mentioned 2 ranch hands were up on the mountain, remember ??

So, there must have been communications about Jack's funeral ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

I have always thought this was another example of Jack's father having no respect nor affection for Jack.  You'll remember that OMT 'never once came to see (Jack) ride'.

I think Jack's mother would have wanted to attend desperately, but I doubt she had much to say about it.

Sad topic, but a good one!

I used to think Jack's father had nothing but contempt for him.These days I am not so sure.
I cannot decide whether the fact that he would have put up with Jack's idea of him and Ennis, or him and another guy living there to lick the ranch into shape,was a sign of some tolerance,or because he was so mean he would put up with anything to get his ranch in better shape.

If it was a sign of tolerance,then why not go to the funeral. Personally I think it must have been an indication of some tolerance. He does not strike me as the
sort of character who would put up with something that was completely abhorrant to him.

Even if he was completely disgusted by anything and everything about his son.Would he not go to the funeral, to dance on his grave? It all seems so strange.
He wants Jack's ashes at the ranch, now that could be to spite him, but there are some inconsistencies for me. He would have to be bordering on evil, to want Jack's ashes at the ranch and not on BBM just out of spite.
He is not a very likeable character, for sure ,but I don't think he is that wicked.So if he wants his ashes,why not go to the funeral as well.
Maybe I cannot reconcile myself to the possibility,that he is so thoroughly unpleasant, he would act out of spite even after his son's death.

[southendmd]

I wonder if the OMT and Ma Twist ever saw their (only) grandson.

Perhaps he/they disapproved of his marriage with Lureen too.

Also, could be an issue of poverty--a trip to Texas could have been beyond their means.

A thought-provoking topic.  Thanks!

[optom3]

I wonder if the OMT and Ma Twist ever saw their (only) grandson.

Perhaps he/they disapproved of his marriage with Lureen too.

Also, could be an issue of poverty--a trip to Texas could have been beyond their means.

A thought-provoking topic.  Thanks!

Another interesting point.
I suspect they probably didn't see their only grandson. I wonder just how many layers there are to this s.s. So much said and unsaid,in such a few pages.The more I think about it all,the more impressed I am with every aspect of the film and s.s.

[Lynne]

I used to think Jack's father had nothing but contempt for him.These days I am not so sure.
I cannot decide whether the fact that he would have put up with Jack's idea of him and Ennis, or him and another guy living there to lick the ranch into shape,was a sign of some tolerance,or because he was so mean he would put up with anything to get his ranch in better shape.

If it was a sign of tolerance,then why not go to the funeral. Personally I think it must have been an indication of some tolerance. He does not strike me as the
sort of character who would put up with something that was completely abhorrant to him.

Even if he was completely disgusted by anything and everything about his son.Would he not go to the funeral, to dance on his grave? It all seems so strange.
He wants Jack's ashes at the ranch, now that could be to spite him, but there are some inconsistencies for me. He would have to be bordering on evil, to want Jack's ashes at the ranch and not on BBM just out of spite.
He is not a very likeable character, for sure ,but I don't think he is that wicked.So if he wants his ashes,why not go to the funeral as well.
Maybe I cannot reconcile myself to the possibility,that he is so thoroughly unpleasant, he would act out of spite even after his son's death.

I think it's interesting that you see the potential for some tolerance in Old Man Twist toward Jack.  When OMT is talking to Ennis about 'licking the ranch into shape' I have only been able to hear contempt for what he considered Jack's grand plans.  It has never occurred to me that OMT would have actually let it come to pass.  I think that Jack's dreamer nature made him a target for his father. My inability to see this is due in large part to reading the short story first.  I think that Annie Proulx narration about OMT p*ing on Jack illustrates their relationship starkly, and heart-wrenchingly, well.

Random thought - is this where McMurtry/Ossana got the cattlemen's conversation regarding Jack that Lureen overhears??  'P*ant used to ride the bulls'...

And, Paul, I think you're right on about the Twist's poverty.  I doubt they would have been financially able to travel to Texas, either to see their grandson, or to go to Jack's funeral.  And since we only are told about Jack coming up to Wyoming to see Ennis, there's no evidence that he brought Bobby to see his grandparents.  Part of me thinks (hopes) that Jack would have seen this as sparing Bobby his father's harshness.  After all, he already has one stud-duck grandfather to contend with.  (And don't forget in the short story, OMT is the stud-duck, not LD Newsome.)  Not being able to see her grandson seems to me to be another cruelty that Mrs. Twist had to endure at her husband's hands.

[optom3]

Lynne, I had the same problem as you initially.I read the s.s first and could see nothing but hate and contempt for his son,by OMT.Even wondering if there was something vaguely sexual in the urinating incident.
But as I kept reading and watching I started to have a slight shift in my thinking.

It also made me recall a real life incident. My first husband was gay.When he came out at the time of our divorce,his father was completely accepting.He to this day welcomes both his son and partner,when they come to stay.

His mother however,bizarely enough,disowned him from day one. In nearly 20 years she has never seen him,even slamming the door in his face when he attemted to visit her.Now this is a woman who used to love her son obsessively to the verge of something bordering on sexual./incestuous.
She hated me with a passion ,and the only time she was pleasant to me,was when she begged me not to divorce her son.In her mind, even I was better than him being gay.

That got me thinking,if O.MT really hated Jack that much,would he have even tolerated his visits on his own,which we know he did.Jack would go there once a year.Let alone him arriving and setting up with another man.
Like a lot of things with the s.s and film, I am never completely sure.Sometimes I change my mind several times over.It is one of the reasons I love it so much.
I just think deep down there was some sort of,not even affection but maybe acceptance/tolerance.

As normal I find myself going round in circles.

[Lynne]

Lynne, I had the same problem as you initially.I read the s.s first and could see nothing but hate and contempt for his son,by OMT.Even wondering if there was something vaguely sexual in the urinating incident.

I think you might be onto something.  It evokes for me Twist's need to dominate his family.

But as I kept reading and watching I started to have a slight shift in my thinking.

It also made me recall a real life incident. My first husband was gay.When he came out at the time of our divorce,his father was completely accepting.He to this day welcomes both his son and partner,when they come to stay.

His mother however,bizarely enough,disowned him from day one. In nearly 20 years she has never seen him,even slamming the door in his face when he attemted to visit her.Now this is a woman who used to love her son obsessively to the verge of something bordering on sexual./incestuous.
She hated me with a passion ,and the only time she was pleasant to me,was when she begged me not to divorce her son.In her mind, even I was better than him being gay.

That got me thinking,if O.MT really hated Jack that much,would he have even tolerated his visits on his own,which we know he did.Jack would go there once a year.Let alone him arriving and setting up with another man.

That is really interesting, Fiona.  Isn't it sad how many times people are rejected because they do not live up to someone else's expectations for them?  And the tragedy is so compounded when those expectations are coming from parents, ostensibly the people who are supposed to love you no matter what. 

Like a lot of things with the s.s and film, I am never completely sure.Sometimes I change my mind several times over.It is one of the reasons I love it so much.

Amen. 

[optom3]

Lynne,  yes it's very sad.I have 2 very well balanced kids in every way,In fact they are probably over blessed with looks,brains,talent etc.
Then I have my oldest son,who has all the problems in the world.Do I love him any less, certainly not,if anything I can tend to be too overprotective and forgiving of him.
Because of his numerous "mental" problems, he can be very cruel, particularly to me.He is however my son and I love him, even though I do not like some of the things he says or does.
I think O.M.T  is probably a much more complex character than at first would appear.
Proulx does not use one word unnecessarily. So I think every little word has meaning.

[Artiste]

Good ideas !

[optom3]

Good ideas !

What seems so gut wrenchingly  terrible,is that he not only died on his own, but it would appear that no one who loved him was even at his funeral.
I cannot see how much more desolate things could have been.
It has just added a whole new layer of unbearable grief, that I had not been aware of before.
His wishes of a "sweet life" with Ennis came to nothing, and even his wishes of being scattered on the only place that had held any real hope,peace or happiness came to nothing as well.
All his dreams and wishes came to nothing,both in life and death.As OMT says about licking the ranch into shape, "like most a Jacks' ideas it never come to pass"
Makes me wonder which ideas,if any ever came to pass.
It also makes me think Jack was an incredible optimist,to remain so hopeful almost to the end.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

You say:
     but it would appear that no one who loved him (Jack) was even at his funeral.
     
..........

Optom, I know that cases where two  gay lovers lived for many, many years together, and when one died, the straights put the other gay lover to live in the street right away !!

That did happen to me and to others !!

So, we gays, have a long way to be accepted by the general population yet ??

Of course, you are one of the few exceptions !! Even, on Bettermost, many (not all thank goodness), even did not want me to even use to word gay !!

Au revoir,
hugs!  You want to know about straights what they did to my lover/buddy who died - if gays could go to his funeral ?

[Lynne]

What seems so gut wrenchingly  terrible,is that he not only died on his own, but it would appear that no one who loved him was even at his funeral.
I cannot see how much more desolate things could have been.
It has just added a whole new layer of unbearable grief, that I had not been aware of before.
His wishes of a "sweet life" with Ennis came to nothing, and even his wishes of being scattered on the only place that had held any real hope,peace or happiness came to nothing as well.
All his dreams and wishes came to nothing,both in life and death.As OMT says about licking the ranch into shape, "like most a Jacks' ideas it never come to pass"
Makes me wonder which ideas,if any ever came to pass.
It also makes me think Jack was an incredible optimist,to remain so hopeful almost to the end.

That's a really nice summary, Fiona.  I think you've hit on one of the central tragedies of the story here - that none of Jack's dreams ever did come to pass because of homophobia, both external and internal. 

People like to debate whether Jack really does remain hopeful to the end.

I think I see in Jack's gaze after the flashback to the dozy embrace, watching Ennis drive away, an extinguishing of his hope for their sweet life together.  The idea that Jack's father knows about the 'ranch neighbor' lends support to this idea for me - Jack had transferred his optimism to Randall.

It's tragic anyway you look at it. 

[optom3]

That's a really nice summary, Fiona.  I think you've hit on one of the central tragedies of the story here - that none of Jack's dreams ever did come to pass because of homophobia, both external and internal. 

People like to debate whether Jack really does remain hopeful to the end.

I think I see in Jack's gaze after the flashback to the dozy embrace, watching Ennis drive away, an extinguishing of his hope for their sweet life together.  The idea that Jack's father knows about the 'ranch neighbor' lends support to this idea for me - Jack had transferred his optimism to Randall.

It's tragic anyway you look at it. 

I agree 100%
It's why I put he remained hopeful, almost to the end.That scene which you refer to is just so poignant.It is like watching the candle which has once burned so brightly,just flicker and die.Even in the s.s it says perhaps  "they'd never got much further than that."
There is something truly desperate about watching the hope go out of someones eyes.

A book my younger son is reading about WW2 and the holocaust, has  a mother saying to her children, "for as long as there is life there is hope"
In the case of Jack I think the reverse was true, for as long as there was hope,there was life.

He almost had to die, after that heartbreaking  meeting..Because inside I think he had just died anyway. The physical death was only a matter of when.The truly soul destroying death, was watching that last little flicker of hope die.
Perhaps that is why Proulx leaves the means of death open to interpretation.It almost seems unimportant.
Jack the eternally optimistic dreamer, for whom hope springs eternal,has just lost all hope.

I have seen that look in someones eyes.I put it there, and I would give anything to go back and rewind the tape.It is one of the reasons that BBM destroys me every time I watch it.It is like some nightmare groundhog day.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

You say:
      Perhaps that is why Proulx leaves the means of death open to interpretation.It almost seems unimportant.
         
.........

Optom, may I say that Annie and / or the BM, to me, makes death very important in many ways that homophobia is destruction, and the opposite hope as in Ennis at the end of the BM movie is there too as he hugs the shirt-jacket !!
So, there is light, but dim !!

Let's not forget that there is hope for Ennis when he enters Mr. and Mrs. Twist house  and Jack's parents do help him adding light of love !!

Tragedies here, as in the murderings of gay men because they are gay, are noted in the BM movie, but too many viwwers disregard that unfortunately !!

Au revoir,
hugs! May there be no more gay bashing nor murders of gays in 2008 and forever !!

[optom3]

Artiste, going off topic slightly,it would be nice if there were no more murders period of anyone.
I simply cannot understand why people have to so evil.I know that some of it could be down to psychosis and other mental illnesses.
The rest however,seem to be a combination of greed,hate.
I have had terrible things done to me in my life.Rape, mental and physical battering,massive theft by my business partner.I have had to listen to a scout master tell me of the probable rape of my already troubled son.I see the alleged perpetrator in Publix so many times.It would be so easy I promise you to allow myself to feel enough hatred to kill or seriously hurt the man, but I don't.

I have plenty of reasons to hate,yet I don't.

I am not a saint by any means.I have done some things I am not overly proud of.
I will never understand the sort of greed and hate that leads to murder of anyone.
I find the insane rantings of some Muslims dangerous and offensive,but still I would not kill.
If mothers who have had their child raped or murdered can forgive,then surely others can.
There can be no justification of murder,of anyone by anyone.