Author Topic: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer  (Read 44259 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« on: May 19, 2008, 01:42:35 pm »
Howdy BetterMostians,

another week, another topic :)

Just like the tagline of the movie (Love is a force of nature), I think the lines in the theatrical trailer encapsulate the movie pretty good. They'd better, after all trailers are made to describe a movie's basics and make people curious to watch it.

To recapitulate, here they are:

1  It was a friendship
    that became a secret

2  There are places
     we can't return

3  There are lies
    we have to tell

4  There are truths
    we can't deny


I find especially # 2 and #4 intersting:

There are places we can't return. In the short story, Annie Proulx makes it clear that they never return to Brokeback Mountain. In the movie, it's more ambigious. Do you think it's valid to take the trailer as a hint that it was the same for the movie (meaning never returning)? Or do you think it's too far-fetched? After all, we don't know who made the trailer, whether Ang Lee had any say in it or if it was completely made by marketing experts (though somehow I doubt the latter).


There are truths we can't deny. That's exactly what Ennis tries to do for twenty years, isn't it? But IMO not very successful, so the trailer is „right“ somehow. He can't deny. Alma knows, Aguirre knows, Junior and most important, I think he knows, too (yep, I know not everybody shares this take on Ennis).
And what come out from all this trying to deny? (rhetorical question here ;D). So I'd say the lines in the trailer are pretty accurate.

What's your take on the issue?












Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 02:07:28 pm »
Just to refresh our memories, here's the trailer:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xuugq7fito[/youtube]

Offline Shasta542

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 07:57:13 pm »
2  There are places
     we can't return


That first summer together. That was so wonderful for them (until it was cut short). It's hard to return to the first thrilling throes of love and passion. The reunion was great, but not even close to what they had on Brokeback Mountain. That's one way I see that quote -- they couldn't go back to the way it was before descending the mountain.

Good topic, Chrissi. Very sad, sad, sad trailer.
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 10:36:46 pm »
I interpret there are places we can't return,to mean that you can never recapture the innocence and sheer heady delight of the first few weeks of falling in love.
You play the will he wont he,does he doesn't he dance.The sly glances trying to measure up how they feel.Then wow when everything is right,it just happens, almost sometimes against your will, i.e love is a force of nature.You may pretend or hide, but deep down where it matters,where only you can see,it cannot be denied.
In the case of Jack and Ennis they can never return,because as soon as they come down their lives become more complex.others are now involved.
So Brokeback almost becomes a shrine to what they once had.It will never be the same again,no matter how hard they try to recapture it.They still love each other,even if the words are never said.
But it is no longer simple,they have to lie,to others as well as denying the love to themselves,at least on the part of Ennis.
No matter what was said on Brokeback,at least for that time it was just them,the force of nature,no lies involving other people,even if they were lying to themselves.
So no, they can never return.
Just like we can never turn back the clock, much a we may wish too.

Offline Fran

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2008, 04:59:43 pm »
1  It was a friendship
    that became a secret

2  There are places
     we can't return

3  There are lies
    we have to tell

4  There are truths
    we can't deny

I especially like the "we" in Nos. 2, 3, and 4.  The lines could have been, "There are places they can't return," "There are lies they have to tell," etc.  To me, the  "we" emphasizes the universal message of the film.  It speaks to everyone -- well, everyone who's open to the message.

Offline BelAir

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 05:44:43 pm »
2  There are places
     we can't return


That first summer together. That was so wonderful for them (until it was cut short). It's hard to return to the first thrilling throes of love and passion. The reunion was great, but not even close to what they had on Brokeback Mountain. That's one way I see that quote -- they couldn't go back to the way it was before descending the mountain.

Good topic, Chrissi. Very sad, sad, sad trailer.


I thought the same thing.
Looked at the banner and thought, "Dang, looking at that image with that line, about as devastating as watching the whole movie."

Makes me think they spent their whole lives trying to recreate Brokeback, and failed.  I think that is one perspective, but not the entirety of what happened.

I first saw the trailer knowing nothing of the actual story.  I remember sitting in the theater, thinking to myself after they came down the mountain, "Well. What's going to happen now, I wonder?"  So I think the trailer did a good job of being intriguing but not telling the whole story.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2008, 06:40:08 pm »
OMG watching that trailer really stirred up the emotions again. I wonder how many of us will get the DVD out and watch it again.

Watching the clips after the phrase "There are places we cant return".....the clips showing "normality", I felt the phrase meant more, that they could never return to the normal expected way of life, no matter how much they tried and no matter how much they made that kind of life for themselves, they were never going to be able to return to a "normal" way of life.
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2008, 11:21:00 pm »
OMG watching that trailer really stirred up the emotions again. I wonder how many of us will get the DVD out and watch it again.

Watching the clips after the phrase "There are places we cant return".....the clips showing "normality", I felt the phrase meant more, that they could never return to the normal expected way of life, no matter how much they tried and no matter how much they made that kind of life for themselves, they were never going to be able to return to a "normal" way of life.

Oh no!!!
now I am in a dilemma,I was so sure it meant they could not return to,BBM,now I am not so convinced.They could not return to normal life either ,after BBM idyll.
Maybe as the plural is used,places,it encompasses both.Caught in between two worlds,BBM and "normality" never fully inhabiting,either again.It is the use of the plural that makes me think.If it was one or the other,would it not have been,there is a place we can't return to.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 11:40:42 pm »

I'm just popping in to say this is an awesome topic for a TOTW!  I'll weigh in tomorrow after I watch the trailer again (to refresh my memory).  I can't watch  YouTube at home because I'm on dial-up, so I'll sneak a look while I'm at work.

Also, was there more than one trailer?  Why do I feel like there were at least two?

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 11:46:58 pm »
I especially like the "we" in Nos. 2, 3, and 4.  The lines could have been, "There are places they can't return," "There are lies they have to tell," etc.  To me, the  "we" emphasizes the universal message of the film.  It speaks to everyone -- well, everyone who's open to the message.

Just popping back to say, even before I re-watch the trailer tomorrow...  that the use of the word "we" in the phrases in the trailer seems to be a very smart and very, very emotionally stirring decision.  It really does immediately make the viewer identify with the gay protagonists. 

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 11:49:42 pm »
2  There are places we can't return

To me, this has several possible meanings:

1 - The literal (BBM)
2 - The place of innocence, where Ennis was before he learned the truth about himself
3 - The place of idealistic first love
4 - The lives Jack and Ennis led before their time on BBM

I agree with Amanda. There are even more meanings. We all passed through a gay period in our lives, it's a natural part of growing up.
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Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2008, 04:25:05 am »
As English isn't my first language and I am not good with words even in my own language  I hope I'll be able to express what I feel.
The There are places we can't return to me it means the time up on Brockback was a time when they still had a future ahead of them, and above all they had the freedom to choose what to do with their own lives. Yes, the world was hostile towards their love (even if Ennis at the time didn't acknowledge it as such) but they had the freedom to make decisions, to take a different path if they wanted to. They were no wives (Alma was only a girlfriend, she and Ennis hadn't even slept together yet), no children, Ennis in particular didn't  have a family to report /to justify to, his father wasn't there  to frighten/threaten him any longer,  They had a chance, in my opinion a very big one too, and they missed it.
Brokeback wasn't just a place when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong and of imagined power, the power was actually there, had they been able to see it and grasp it.  Of course they did they best they could given the circumstances and with the knowledge they had at the time.   Later came the commitments, wives, children, and they could no longer return to that place of power. 
IMHO that's why Brokeback  is a place they can't return to.

Yes, I think  the 4 lines in the trailer encapsulate the movie pretty well.


I'm just popping in to say this is an awesome topic for a TOTW!  I'll weigh in tomorrow after I watch the trailer again (to refresh my memory).  I can't watch  YouTube at home because I'm on dial-up, so I'll sneak a look while I'm at work.

Also, was there more than one trailer?  Why do I feel like there were at least two?
I saw the Italian trailer on a DVD which I had the big pleasure to buy as a present for a friend, it features one of the deleted scenes, it's  a very sexy, bare chested Jack standing on a bridge. I am unable to watch the trailer here as my Internet connection is too slow.
BbM, I swear

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2008, 04:42:38 am »
P.S. to my earlier post:

Prior to watching  BbM I hadn't watched the trailer, all I knew was that it was a love story between two men.
The consequence was that I watched it  'unguarded', the result was like an astonishingly  powerful wave  had entered my soul.
Sorry,  hope I haven't gone off topic ...
BbM, I swear

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2008, 08:26:53 am »
2  There are places we can't return

To me, this has several possible meanings:

1 - The literal (BBM)
2 - The place of innocence, where Ennis was before he learned the truth about himself
3 - The place of idealistic first love
4 - The lives Jack and Ennis led before their time on BBM
I think you are right on all acounts.
Many of these apply to me after seeing the film.
I can't watch the movie anymore. Just seeing the trailer causes a physically painful reaction. My chest tightens up, my heart beat increases.
I feel short of breath. Actually watching the movie I cry from begining to end. AFterwards I am so depressed for a long time. So, I can't go back to BBM either.
Number 2 and number 4 apply to me. After seeing the movie and  coming to terms with what I am and what I had to do, my life was changed forever.
It is such a powerful movie for some of us.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2008, 08:53:29 am »
I think you are right on all acounts.
Many of these apply to me after seeing the film.
I can't watch the movie anymore. Just seeing the trailer causes a physically painful reaction. My chest tightens up, my heart beat increases.
I feel short of breath. Actually watching the movie I cry from begining to end. AFterwards I am so depressed for a long time. So, I can't go back to BBM either.
Number 2 and number 4 apply to me. After seeing the movie and  coming to terms with what I am and what I had to do, my life was changed forever.
It is such a powerful movie for some of us.

this is a stage a lot of people went thru when they FIRST saw the film, Rich....you had so much going on in your life that you couldn't really go there...

I know it is hard but truthfully the depression you feel is actually a little bit positive...it means (IMO) that you are in a place you feel safe enough to let yourself 'feel' it. You know on a subconcsious level that you DO have friends you can call. Just give yourself time and it WILL get better...

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2008, 09:18:13 am »
I agree with sel on the meaning of "there are places we can't return,"

    When Jack and Ennis were on Brokeback, they had no other entanglements or involvements.  It was like they were invisible in the world and the only thing that mattered was the two of them.

     At the reunion that was all changed, they had wives and children and the responsibility to make a living to survive.  There was no way to return to that simpler, happier time.

      I think their trips were an attempt to recreate that carefree feeling, but of course, they always brought all of their current baggage with them.  So that was impossible too.

     I think it can also refer to other characters as well.  Alma can never go back to before she saw Ennis and Jack kiss.  Cassie can never go back to the time when Ennis pretended to himself to be in love with her. 

     Life gives us only one choice -  go forward. 

    As much as we might want time to stop, it won't.  As much as we might want to go back, we can't.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2008, 09:31:09 am »
Quote
As much as we might want to go back, we can't.
Very Good point.
This reminds me of a line in a song I once heard.
It's called "Has Anybody Seen Amy"
The line says : "You can always go home but you can never go back"
It is so true....
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2008, 09:59:01 am »
Very Good point.
This reminds me of a line in a song I once heard.
It's called "Has Anybody Seen Amy"
The line says : "You can always go home but you can never go back"
It is so true....

Rich, I'm hopin it won't be too long before you find yourself in one of those situations where you wish time would stop, and it would just stay like this.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2008, 10:26:58 am »
Rich, I'm hopin it won't be too long before you find yourself in one of those situations where you wish time would stop, and it would just stay like this.

Thanks Clyde. Me too!
I have had a one.
When I went to San Fransisco last year I wish It could have stayed that way.
Everything was new and exciting. I met my Brokie friends in person for the first time and I fell in love with the most wonderful beautiful man I had ever seen.
I wanted it to be just like that always. I feel like that everytime I am with my daughter too.
I know each day that passes she is growing more and taking another step toward adulthood and away from me.
So especially where she is concerned I feel that way!
But alas, reality steals our joy and our happiness sometimes and shows us that nothing is forever.
only bittersweet memories..
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2008, 10:42:00 am »
Very Good point.
This reminds me of a line in a song I once heard.
It's called "Has Anybody Seen Amy"
The line says : "You can always go home but you can never go back"
It is so true....

That is such a clever line,you can always go home but you can never go back.

Even at it's most basic level, leaving the parental home,you can go home again, but it is never the same as it was before you left.In many cases you go home as an adult and parent yourself.
I am going to pinch that phrase from you, and have it as my TOTW.
If it is any consollation, I still sob at even the music never mind the film.I really thought I had moved on and away from my impossible love,across the Atlantic actually.In truth I had not.
I have now sort of reached a stage where I am nearly cried out,following a full blown depressive episode,and in a country not my own.I know it sounds crazy,but if you allow yourself to feel the emotions and really let them out,it can be healing.

BBM allowed or almost forced me to do that.At first I tried to contain what I was feeling, then I just gave up.
I really hope you find some peace,and I do truly believe grieving is healing,even if it does not seem so at the time.
If you do not grieve for whatever,situation,person,impossible love,lost dreams a whole host of things,you can never be free to move on.
I even grieve for my oldest son, because he will never be the child he should have been.
Nearly his whole life since 5 has been psychiatrists and different meds.
So watch BBM again and sob your heart out,for days if necessary.

Because though it may be true that we can never go back, we can if strong enough move forward.I hope you get strength and peace.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2008, 12:27:24 pm »
I agree with Amanda. There are even more meanings. We all passed through a gay period in our lives, it's a natural part of growing up.


Yes, I think you are right.  Everyone at least stops to consider before figuring out if they are gay or straight or somewhere in between.  And sometimes there is cause for people to reconsider when they haven't been honest with themselves.



Well, this certainly might be the case about all folks dealing with a period of questioning their sexuality to determine whether or not they themselves are gay, bisexual or straight.  I think that makes a lot of sense.

But, what I really mean by the inclusive term "we" and the idea that this immediately causes the viewer (regardless of gender or sexuality) to identify with the predicament of a gay couple struggling with the obstacles presented in the film.  And, to identify with a gay romance as something that can be emotionally touching and significant even if the viewer is not male or gay.  It also implies that secrets, lies etc. are aspects of all our lives in one way or another.




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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2008, 12:43:54 pm »
They say"never return to the place you've been happy",as a kind of maintaining the image and the memories of the happiness you felt there.However,for me BBM is not only a physical place,but a metaphor of the life they wanted to live and that circumstances-and often themselves...-didn't allow them to.There,Ennis and Jack could be themselves,feeling and living as they were at their inner self;it was as their Paradise on Earth,from which they had to descend to find the real life,the one that carried prohibitions,denials and problems to their love...It's to say,the question is not return or not to a place,but to the experiences they lived there;that,even if they were trying to remodelate their daily life to get it closer to BBM ideal-as Belair has said-they never obtained but a simple and often sad imitation of that...So,really both of them,never returned to the mountain,not in the same conditions that in 1963;they could never return to that place indeed.
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2008, 02:31:04 pm »
They say"never return to the place you've been happy",as a kind of maintaining the image and the memories of the happiness you felt there.However,for me BBM is not only a physical place,but a metaphor of the life they wanted to live and that circumstances-and often themselves...-didn't allow them to.There,Ennis and Jack could be themselves,feeling and living as they were at their inner self;it was as their Paradise on Earth,from which they had to descend to find the real life,the one that carried prohibitions,denials and problems to their love...It's to say,the question is not return or not to a place,but to the experiences they lived there;that,even if they were trying to remodelate their daily life to get it closer to BBM ideal-as Belair has said-they never obtained but a simple and often sad imitation of that...So,really both of them,never returned to the mountain,not in the same conditions that in 1963;they could never return to that place indeed.

I tend to agree with that.For them BBM was their paradise.What is so gut wrenchingly awful,is the fact that even on BBM things were not as they seemed.They were being observed.
This film and S.S just have so many layers of tragedy,it is hard to bear. They spend the rest of their lives trying to go back to something that they never really had.

Everything for them is tainted. In the S.S they are described as"flying in the euphoric bitter air,looking down -------- suspended above ordinary affairs--------they believed themselves invisible"

How much is packed into so few words.  They were euphoric,inspite of themselves,they knew what they had found,but it was bitter,tainted already,as they were being watched and would soon have to descend to real or ordinary life.
On BBM it seems to the two of them ,they are flying, so euphoric are they.They have found they believe,even if only fleetingly their wings, and with it the freedom to fly,out of reach of prejudice and judgement.

It breaks me completely to think even that tiny moment in time is bitter/tainted.They are cetainly not invisible as we know.

When they descend, Ennis "felt he was in a slow motion ,but headlong,irreversible fall" It seems as if he is literally falling from heaven back down to earth.He is unaware at the time ,as is Jack,that their heaven was not as perfect as they thought.

He could never go back,it was irreversible.That was true for them both on so many levels.In one sense they could never go back,because what they were trying to go back to,simply did not exist.

Life for Ennis and Jack as for many of us, is reduced to one great big , if only.

If only we could turn back the clock,the pages of time,so many phrases for it.
 But maybe what we are also  being shown,is that we cannot go back,because what we thought we had is probably not as it once seemed.So we should grab life by the balls and seize the day,while we can.

Unfortunately for Jack and Ennis it was too late,but it is interesting that Heath very much had a seize the day attitude.I know we all wish we could turn that clock back,but I'm betting Heath probably did not have too many  if only moments.He seemed to grab every opportunity that life threw his way.He probably could not be much more different to Ennis.

I am trying these days, no matter how hard ,to make more of all the good things and stop dwelling on all the bad. BBM affected me in so many ways, and still continues to do so.
I would suspect in the few pages of the short story, there is a whole lifetime of lessons to be learned.

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2008, 04:09:07 pm »
I especially like the "we" in Nos. 2, 3, and 4.  The lines could have been, "There are places they can't return," "There are lies they have to tell," etc.  To me, the  "we" emphasizes the universal message of the film.  It speaks to everyone -- well, everyone who's open to the message.

As Fran said, I think the "we" is important, and I suspect it's intentional.

So Brokeback almost becomes a shrine to what they once had.It will never be the same again,no matter how hard they try to recapture it.They still love each other,even if the words are never said.
But it is no longer simple,they have to lie,to others as well as denying the love to themselves,at least on the part of Ennis.
No matter what was said on Brokeback,at least for that time it was just them,the force of nature,no lies involving other people,even if they were lying to themselves.
So no, they can never return.
Just like we can never turn back the clock, much a we may wish too.

Regrets are the hardest part of life, at least for me, and I suspect for a lot of people.  In other words, "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

That line sums it up perfectly - often life, and in the film though it wasn't one of the taglines, it's almost the entire story encapsulated in that one phrase. Ennis and Jack spent the rest of their lives trying to stand it because they couldn't, or didn't think they could, fix it.

It's a phrase I've found myself using a lot over the past few months, sometimes in a "negative", resigned way, but also in a positive way too. On Saturday as part of the official launch of a charity I had to give a speech to a meeting of people who'd come along for the launch of this thing that's been four years in the planning, and is a big thing, and an important step forward for those living with the medical condition the charity's about. I hadn't prepared anything in advance, I'm used to public speaking, and I tend to have a rough idea of what I'm going to say, but on the day I just wing it. When I stood up I'd no idea really how I was going to phrase it, how it was going to come out, but predictably (for me anyway) I found myself lapsing into Brokie-isms. Brokeback's had a huge impact on how I deal with my health issues, and how I view life, and the whole theme of my speech was about living for the day and making it count, and trying to take something positive out of what can be a very negative experience. When I opened my mouth, out came "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" and by the time I ended up uttering those immortal words, "ain't no reins on this one" I knew I was doomed to spend the entire speech talking in Brokie-isms!  :laugh: I kind of turned it on it's head though, because although you can't fix it (the medical problem), you can stand it, and you can take a stand against it. That was something Ennis and Jack could never do - they were doomed keeping their secret, never returning to that place, getting tangled in the lies, and denying the truths. Though I love the "if you can't fix it" line, and I think it sums up the story in many ways, it wouldn't have made a good tagline, or a line for the trailer.

Watching the trailer again it's almost like a 60 second summary of the story (but with no spoilers) and the lines in the trailer almost tell the story too. I can't think of any other form of words that would encapsulate the story and the message of the film any better.

It was interesting on Sunday while I was away watching the film with a group of people who hadn't seen Brokeback before. Only two out of the eight others had seen it, and though beforehand they'd all been joking about it, and I'd agreed I wouldn't complain about them making gay cowboy jokes, but it was noticeable as the film went on that gradually the jokes subsided and by the time it got to the last camping trip scene, they were all watching in silence. Afterwards one of the guys said to me he could understand after seeing the film what I'd meant about it, and about the whole idea of going forward and seizing opportunities, and not looking back with regrets (and there followed a 2 hour deep and meaningful about life and such like).

Very interesting to watch the film with a bunch of non-Brokies though and see their reactions.

I tend to agree with that.For them BBM was their paradise.What is so gut wrenchingly awful,is the fact that even on BBM things were not as they seemed.They were being observed.
This film and S.S just have so many layers of tragedy,it is hard to bear. They spend the rest of their lives trying to go back to something that they never really had.

Everything for them is tainted. In the S.S they are described as"flying in the euphoric bitter air,looking down -------- suspended above ordinary affairs--------they believed themselves invisible"

How much is packed into so few words.  They were euphoric,inspite of themselves,they knew what they had found,but it was bitter,tainted already,as they were being watched and would soon have to descend to real or ordinary life.
On BBM it seems to the two of them ,they are flying, so euphoric are they.They have found they believe,even if only fleetingly their wings, and with it the freedom to fly,out of reach of prejudice and judgement.

It breaks me completely to think even that tiny moment in time is bitter/tainted.They are cetainly not invisible as we know.

So true, and also so sad. Even their paradise was a tainted one, and perhaps it's a sign that even in seeming perfection there's nothing that's perfect.

Quote
If only we could turn back the clock,the pages of time,so many phrases for it.
 But maybe what we are also  being shown,is that we cannot go back,because what we thought we had is probably not as it once seemed.So we should grab life by the balls and seize the day,while we can.

The "seize the day" thing is probably one of the biggest things I've taken from the film - it's interesting though that you say that maybe we can't go back because what we thought we had is probably not as it once seemed. I know it's often said that in hindsight we all have 20/20 vision, and time and rose tinted spectacles do tend have a tendency sometimes to warp past events into an idealistic vision of perfection when maybe if we looked more closely we'd remember that maybe it wasn't all quite as perfect as we like to remember.   


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2008, 04:19:50 pm »
I don't know, I think what they had on the mountain was perfect.
For the first and only time in their lives they were who they were supposed to be.
They were free to love each other and what  love it was. All new filled with excitement and promise.
They were suspended above ordinary things. The were as the Gods on Olympus.
They may have been seen by Aquirre but they didn't know that.  They were in love and they were free to express it for however short a time it was.
Some people never get that.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2008, 05:42:32 pm »
I don't know, I think what they had on the mountain was perfect.
For the first and only time in their lives they were who they were supposed to be.
They were free to love each other and what  love it was. All new filled with excitement and promise.
They were suspended above ordinary things. The were as the Gods on Olympus.
They may have been seen by Aquirre but they didn't know that.  They were in love and they were free to express it for however short a time it was.
Some people never get that.

That's a good point. I guess it depends which way you look at it. They didn't know they were being watched, even though we do, so yes, I suppose they  were in blissful ignorance. I guess the bittersweetness comes from the fact that we know that they were being watched. I don't think that detracts from the fact that for them that time was perfect, but for us it gives that time a slightly different perspective. I've often wondered though if Jack knew they were being watched, even before the scene the year after when Jack goes back to Aguirre's looking for work, because when Aguiirre comes to the camp to tell Jack about his uncle's pneumonia, he's wearing the binoculars around his neck, and he very pointedly looks through them at Ennis out on the mountain with the sheep.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2008, 06:00:01 pm »
I think Jack may have suspected and it was confirmed in Aguirres trailer the next spring.
But Jack is soooo......... I don't know, Jack! LOL
That I doubt he cared who knew or saw or anything. Nothing could have brought him down form the clouds until August when they did have to come down. After that it was all a happy place in their hearts and minds.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2008, 06:21:31 pm »
I think Jack may have suspected and it was confirmed in Aguirres trailer the next spring.
But Jack is soooo......... I don't know, Jack! LOL

Yeah, I know what you mean...Jack's just soooo, well Jack! LOL! Bluebirds and whiskey springs and all that. Always the dreamer and always seeing the bright side. I always get the feeling that Jack really believed that one day they'd find that sweet life, and kind of that he thought himself invincible...

*sigh*

If only.  :(


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2008, 06:42:41 pm »
I agree.  Even though they were observed, their blissful ignorance was just that ... belief in the perfection of the moment.  Nothing learned later could mar that memory, IMO.



O.K I am going to be swayed a little towards this line of thinking, mainly because it a amuch more positive spin.

I think with me I see it differently sometimes,because I read the story first.I cannot get the "euphoric,bitter air" out of my head.I remember as soon as I read that,my next thought was uh oh. The sentence was preceeded by them having a wonderful carefree time,then just like a roller coaster, you're up with the euphoric then plunged right down with the bitter.You also get to know that Aguirre ha watched them having sex.

My heart sank at that point, in the story,I had no idea where it was going,but I didn't think it was a good direction.

I remeber feeling incredibly sad when reding the story that their idyllic carefree time was immediately tainted.

I guess I then took this perception with me when I saw the film.

I have posted before that I often wish I had seen the film first,in some ways their time on BBM is much less spoiled in the film than in the S.S.
But then in appostion to that,Ennis is more tender and loving with Jack in the S.S than the film.

So I guess,swings and roundabouts,
But as I have had a truly dreadful night so far,I am going to let you all persuade me to the BBM time being perfect.In the hopes it may cheer me up!!!!!

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2008, 09:38:15 pm »
Sorry to hear you are having a bad night.  I'm here if you want to chat more.

Now having read the few posts above, I am a little swayed toward your line of thinking.  At least for Jack, the knowledge of being watched may have been there, but I'm still not sure that info caused him a problem until later when he went back looking for work.  For Ennis, it would probably have been a major showstopper.



You should have heard a bunch of us over on IMDb about a year ago.  We were all in the tent huddled under Harry Potter's invisibility cloak waiting for TS2 to start.  We'd even made popcorn.  Shhhhh!  You don't want Ennis to hear us.    :laugh:

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2008, 10:10:34 pm »
I always get the feeling that Jack really believed that one day they'd find that sweet life, and kind of that he thought himself invincible...

*sigh*

If only.  :(
I so agree with ya on this.
I think he was expecting it right up until the end.
I think he gave up at the lake and that is when he turned to Randall.
If only is right  :'(
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Offline BelAir

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2008, 11:33:54 pm »
O.K I am going to be swayed a little towards this line of thinking, mainly because it a amuch more positive spin.

I think with me I see it differently sometimes,because I read the story first.I cannot get the "euphoric,bitter air" out of my head.I remember as soon as I read that,my next thought was uh oh. The sentence was preceeded by them having a wonderful carefree time,then just like a roller coaster, you're up with the euphoric then plunged right down with the bitter.You also get to know that Aguirre ha watched them having sex.

My heart sank at that point, in the story,I had no idea where it was going,but I didn't think it was a good direction.

I remeber feeling incredibly sad when reding the story that their idyllic carefree time was immediately tainted.

I guess I then took this perception with me when I saw the film.

I have posted before that I often wish I had seen the film first,in some ways their time on BBM is much less spoiled in the film than in the S.S.
But then in appostion to that,Ennis is more tender and loving with Jack in the S.S than the film.

So I guess,swings and roundabouts,
But as I have had a truly dreadful night so far,I am going to let you all persuade me to the BBM time being perfect.In the hopes it may cheer me up!!!!!

sorry to be off topic for a sec, but I am just curious whether you have read Annie's latest short story?  any of her other work?

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,20354.0.html
(hopefully that is the link to the thread discussing the new short story)

to try to stay on topic... i find it sort of annoying that some scenes in the trailer did not end up appearing in the movie.  has that happened with other movies/trailers?  seems like something that could have been prevented, but perhaps not.
"— a thirst for life, for love, and for truth..."

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2008, 03:25:54 am »
Rich, I'm hopin it won't be too long before you find yourself in one of those situations where you wish time would stop, and it would just stay like this.

Thanks Clyde. Me too!
I have had a one.
When I went to San Fransisco last year I wish It could have stayed that way.
Everything was new and exciting. I met my Brokie friends in person for the first time and I fell in love with the most wonderful beautiful man I had ever seen.
I wanted it to be just like that always. I feel like that everytime I am with my daughter too.
I know each day that passes she is growing more and taking another step toward adulthood and away from me.
So especially where she is concerned I feel that way!
But alas, reality steals our joy and our happiness sometimes and shows us that nothing is forever.
only bittersweet memories..
That reminds  me of a  couples of lines from The horse whisperer by Nicholas Evans:

“How Frank had wished that now could last forever and how their father had said forever was but a trail of nows and the best a man could do was live each one fully in its turn.”

You are so right.  The tragedy of the story really lies at that fork in the road, after which Ennis and Jack were forced to look back forever on "the road not taken" with regret and (at least for Ennis) the inability to move forward in the direction that he yearned to.  This is an all too familiar story to me personally.  An earlier, less encumbered time, when fear prevented following the heart.  There is no going back, for anyone, and BBM exemplified that all too painful reality.  Regrets are the hardest part of life, at least for me, and I suspect for a lot of people.  In other words, "if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Same applies to me, very much spot on!

I don't know, I think what they had on the mountain was perfect.
For the first and only time in their lives they were who they were supposed to be.
They were free to love each other and what  love it was. All new filled with excitement and promise.
They were suspended above ordinary things. The were as the Gods on Olympus.
They may have been seen by Aquirre but they didn't know that.  They were in love and they were free to express it for however short a time it was.
Some people never get that.
However short a time it was, and even knowing later that Aguirre had seen them, that time has been part of their lives, it belongs to them. No-one, nothing can take it  away  from them.
You're right, some people never get that. I know, sadly  I am one of them.

sorry to be off topic for a sec, but I am just curious whether you have read Annie's latest short story?  any of her other work?
I am currently reading The shipping news.




I have found every single post on this thread  very inspiring.   Thank you all!
BbM, I swear

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2008, 08:34:26 am »
Great thread, everyone!

"There are places we can't return" is of course in distinction from Jack's line "It could be like this, just like this, always." 

Like Rich says, we all have had moments that are so wonderful, we hope they won't end.  But, the world keeps turning. 

It's a theme that has been in the culture.  Jim Croce's "Time in a Bottle" comes to mind.  One of my favorite expressions of this theme is from "Oliver".  There's a song called "Who Will Buy?" about a perfect day, and the wish to keep it. 

How about a little musical interlude?

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3EhsdMUNr8[/youtube]

Who will buy this wonderful morning?
Such a sky you never did see!

Who will tie it up with a ribbon,
And put it in a box for me?

So I could see it at my leisure,
Whenever things go wrong,
And I would keep it as a treasure,
To last my whole life long.

Who will buy this wonderful feeling?
I'm so high, I swear I could fly.

Me, oh my! I don't want to lose it.
So what am I to do
To keep a sky so blue?
There must be someone who will buy...


Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2008, 08:42:53 am »
"How Frank had wished that now could last forever and how their father had said forever was but a trail of nows and the best a man could do was live each one fully in its turn.”

Wow, this is another lesson of Brokeback Mountain.

Thanks for that, sel.

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2008, 11:32:39 am »
Wow, I very nearly posted the lyrics of "Time in a Bottle" yesterday, but decided it was just too depressing.  I always found it ironic and sad that Jim Croce died so young after writing that song.



I did not know that. It is one of my favourite you tube videos of BBM ,Someone had done a video montage of BBM and set it totime in a bottle.It seemed so extraorinarily appropriate,I saved it,then downloade the song onto my MP3 player as it was scarily accurate for my life as well.It is sad to think he dies young. The song will resonate even more deeply with me now.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2008, 12:22:45 pm »
I remember when Jim Croce Died. My Mamma cried and we listened to his records all day.
I think when I was that age my favorite songs were Rapid Roy and Ya Don't Mess around with Jim.
I think Time In Bottle is a very appropriate BBM song.
It's amazing how many songs do fit.
I guess heartache, regret and missed opportunities are universal themes.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2008, 01:53:58 pm »
I remember when Jim Croce Died. My Mamma cried and we listened to his records all day.
I think when I was that age my favorite songs were Rapid Roy and Ya Don't Mess around with Jim.
I think Time In Bottle is a very appropriate BBM song.
It's amazing how many songs do fit.
I guess heartache, regret and missed opportunities are universal themes.

I guess they are more's the pity.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2008, 02:12:06 pm »
I guess they are more's the pity.
Yes, it is a pity. Seems like it's all part of the human condition.
This song reminds me of the boys for some reason and the topics we have been discussing in this thread.
See what Y'all think


These are the days
Sugarland

It's written on our palms and
It's written on our hearts
It's written in our songs and
It's written in the stars
Sometimes all we can do
Is stand up tall
When they're standing in line
Just to watch us fall

Chorus:
Whoa
We can't forget, these are the days
Whoa, don't be afraid
We can't forget, these are the days

Well, we got each other and that's all we need
From here on out it's just you and me
Two hometown hearts up against the world
That don't stand a chance against these boys
We faced 'em down, fought bigger fights
And I know babe we're gonna be alright

Whoa
We can't forget, these are the days
Whoa, don't be afraid
We can't forget, these are the days


Well, it feels like we're living from pay check to check
And we wake up wondering what might happen next
Yeah, someitmes it feels like we won't make it through
But the hard times pass
Like the good ones do
Baby wrap your fingers and
Hold on tight
I'll be right here beside you tonight
Baby climb up here
Watch the city glow
Let's make a wish on the fireworks below
We're making moments that we won't forget
And feeling ones that haven't happened yet



Whoa
Don't be afraid
We can't forget these are the days
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2008, 03:24:25 pm »
Yes, it is a pity. Seems like it's all part of the human condition.
This song reminds me of the boys for some reason and the topics we have been discussing in this thread.
See what Y'all think


These are the days
Sugarland

It's written on our palms and
It's written on our hearts
It's written in our songs and
It's written in the stars
Sometimes all we can do
Is stand up tall
When they're standing in line
Just to watch us fall

Chorus:
Whoa
We can't forget, these are the days
Whoa, don't be afraid
We can't forget, these are the days

Well, we got each other and that's all we need
From here on out it's just you and me
Two hometown hearts up against the world
That don't stand a chance against these boys
We faced 'em down, fought bigger fights
And I know babe we're gonna be alright

Whoa
We can't forget, these are the days
Whoa, don't be afraid
We can't forget, these are the days


Well, it feels like we're living from pay check to check
And we wake up wondering what might happen next
Yeah, someitmes it feels like we won't make it through
But the hard times pass
Like the good ones do
Baby wrap your fingers and
Hold on tight
I'll be right here beside you tonight
Baby climb up here
Watch the city glow
Let's make a wish on the fireworks below
We're making moments that we won't forget
And feeling ones that haven't happened yet



Whoa
Don't be afraid
We can't forget these are the days


I do think they suit our boys very well.
I have to admit to not knowing the song,but I will look it up.
There is a Queen track which I love and some of the lyrics are crucifyingly appropriate,It is a beautiful song anyway and Freddie Mercury has one of the best voices of all time IMO.
 It is interesting to me how many gay men are simply breathtaking artists of one sort or another,George Michael, Freddie of course,Elton John,our very own Artiste!!! Plus some pretty well known English actors.All those gay bashers should open their tiny little minds for just a split second and consider our world without so many of these wonderful people.I could go on and on with the list . Sir Ian McKellan(actor) Frederick Ashton ballet director.On and on but I am straying off topic here.
If you don't know this song,please give your ears a treat,it is heartbreaking though so be prepared to shed a tear.
 



WHO WANTS TO LIVE FOREVER.

There's no time for us
there's no place for us
what is this thing that builds our dreams yet slips away from us

who wants to live for ever
who wants to live for ever

there's no chance for us,
it's all decided for us
this world has only one sweet moment set aside for us

who wants to live for ever
who wants to live for ever

who dares to love for ever
oh when love must die

but  touch my tears with your lips
touch my world with your finger tips
and we can have for ever
and we can love for ever,
 forever is our today

who wants to live for ever
who wants to live for ever
forever is our today

Who waits for ever anyway.




Jack and Ennis had their one sweet moment on BBM and it was all decided for them, by Ennis's crippling fear and the worlds prejudice.But I do think they loved forever in each others hearts.

Offline shortfiction

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2008, 04:55:35 pm »
Technically, it perhaps should read "There are places we can't return to" (yes, it's okay to have a prepostion at the end of a sentence sometimes), but I can see why they did it without the "to."   
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2008, 04:55:04 pm »
It was a friendship that became a secret.

I am not so convinced by that one. Initially I would agree,but Jack knew the 1st year after BBM that they had been observed.At  the reunion Ennis and Jack are observed by Alma.Also although not in the film but in the S.S ,Jack tells Ennis he thinks they may have been observed on BBM.
Ennis thinks  people look at him funny and guess, not about him and Jack but certainly regarding his sexuality.
I am sure that Lureen has guessed and also OMT and Mrs.T  infer that they knew, at that fateful meeting.
So I agree that initially as far as Jack and Ennis were concerned it waS a secret,but little by little as the film unfolds,it becomes apparant that more and more characters are aware of "the secret"

I often feel, considering OMT knew, how much easier to set up together it could have been,than Ennis was thinking.They would have been right out in the middle of nowhere,licking the ranch into shape.With OMT there ,I doubt they wiuld have suffered the fate of Earl and Rich.

Every time I watch that scene,where it becomes apparant that both the Twists knew,I wonder what goes through Ennis's mind.He now is aware that Jack was serious enough to talk to OMT about it,although I suspect not in full detail. Ennis then discovers the shirts,does he think,maybe Jack was right,we could have done it, way out here in the middle of nowhere, and these  two shirts would have people in them still.

It is interesting that OMT never says ,over my dead body or something like,he just says "like most of Jacks ideas it never come to pass." You would think if he was such a homophobe and so against it,he would just have told Jack in very plain terms what he could do with that idea.

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2008, 01:09:05 pm »
That's a really good point.

Even before Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's old room, there's something terribly tragic about that whole scene at the Twists' - from how Mrs T on more than one occasion seems to be wringing her hands, and that pleading look in her eyes, the sparseness of the whole house when you think that Jack could have been there breathing life and joy into the house, and that even maybe Jack and Ennis could have been there. Even OMT seems to have a resigned sad look about him that suggests he's hurting too, and then when OMT makes it clear he knew about their relationship and that Jack had talked about taking Ennis there, just for an instant Ennis looks as though he's physically taken a blow, as though it's hit him after all those years that maybe Jack was right.

I don't think it's right though that their friendship was a secret - Lureen certainly knew about Jack's "fishing buddy", Alma obviously did (and the rest), and Ennis's girls knew about his fishing trips ("Bring me a fish, Daddy, a big fish"), hell, half of Riverton probably knew Ennis went fishing. Maybe it's splitting hairs, semantics, but their friendship wasn't a secret - the secret was the nature of their relationship, but as Fiona says, even their secret wasn't really a secret, because as the years went on, more and more characters know "the secret" or suspect it.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Monika

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2008, 07:50:38 am »
For me "There are places we can´t return" summarizes the whole movie. To me it means different things to Ennis and Jack.
To Jack: that he cant return to what he and Ennis shared on Brokeback Mountain, like he constantly wants to do.
To Ennis: that he can´t return to the life he had before Brokeback Mountain, like he seems to be trying hard to do.

and also about the line "love is a force of nature" - I have never understood it´s relevence to BBM. First of all it sounds a bit cheesy, which BBM never is. Secondly, to me the movie is about that there actually are things more forceful than love, since they never end up together.

As for the line "It was a friendship that became a secret". They never mention that it´s only Ennis´s and Jack´s secret. A secret can be shared by several people after all. I think that even if Alma and maybe Lureen knew, it was still a secret.  I doubt it that either woman ever told outsiders about what the knew or suspected. Alma also kept her knowledge a secret from Ennis for a very long time, and I doubt that Lureen ever got to tell Jack if she indeed knew. "The friendship" became a secret all-around.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2008, 01:36:00 pm »
Quote
and also about the line "love is a force of nature" - I have never understood it´s relevence to BBM. First of all it sounds a bit cheesy, which BBM never is. Secondly, to me the movie is about that there actually are things more forceful than love, since they never end up together

I think it's very relevent to the movie.
Love is a force of nature. Against all sense and logic, you can't help who you love. You may be able to fight against it and deny it but it doesn't change the truth of the matter. It's like trying to hold back the wind or a raging river.
A dam may be able to hold the water back for a time but eventually it has to be let out. Even little bits at a time or it will eventually over flow and consume everything in its path.
The fact that they never wound up together doesn't negate the fact that they loved each other.
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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2008, 04:17:50 pm »


Quote
and also about the line "love is a force of nature" - I have never understood it´s relevence to BBM. First of all it sounds a bit cheesy, which BBM never is. Secondly, to me the movie is about that there actually are things more forceful than love, since they never end up together

I think it's very relevent to the movie.
Love is a force of nature. Against all sense and logic, you can't help who you love. You may be able to fight against it and deny it but it doesn't change the truth of the matter. It's like trying to hold back the wind or a raging river.
A dam may be able to hold the water back for a time but eventually it has to be let out. Even little bits at a time or it will eventually over flow and consume everything in its path.
The fact that they never wound up together doesn't negate the fact that they loved each other.

I think that line makes more sense in the context of the story - the written story rather than the film. With the whole emphasis on nature throughout the story (as discussed in the TOTW a few weeks ago) their love is "just" another force of nature on the mountain. It's almost inevitable right from the start, and at times with the lines in the story you feel that Jack and Ennis are part of that natural world of the mountain...flying on the "euphoric, bitter air", Ennis feeling he could paw the moon right out of the sky. The words and the sentiment make them part of that natural world.

Like loneleeb3 though, I too think it is relevant to the film in the sense that you have no control over who you love and you can't fight it, it's just that for me it makes more sense somehow in the context of the written story.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2008, 10:53:53 pm »
Another thing I did not kow was that Otis Reddings, dock of the bay was posthumous.That brings back happy teen memeories for me,I know seems like an anacronym happy and teen next to each other,but I did have some good times.

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2008, 11:04:35 pm »
I think it's very relevent to the movie.
Love is a force of nature. Against all sense and logic, you can't help who you love. You may be able to fight against it and deny it but it doesn't change the truth of the matter. It's like trying to hold back the wind or a raging river.
A dam may be able to hold the water back for a time but eventually it has to be let out. Even little bits at a time or it will eventually over flow and consume everything in its path.
The fact that they never wound up together doesn't negate the fact that they loved each other.

I agree and love your analogy with the dam.Ennis is like a dam on the verge of bursting its walls.He is so pent up,that when love finally cannot be ignored any longer he does burst out.Once released,just like the raging river,it is unstoppable.The ss is very clear about the sheer force and violence of their "infrequent couplings".
In the film,Ennis on several occasions, burts forth in a blaze of passion or fury.
So I firmly believe in the love is a force of nature,it will out in the end,no matter how you try to deny it.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2008, 08:09:15 am »
Quote
So I firmly believe in the love is a force of nature,it will out in the end,no matter how you try to deny it.
 
Amen sister!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2008, 09:36:39 am »
Amen sister!

Been there, done that, wrote the script and it still hurts like hell.Just call me Miss Ennis or Ennisina if you prefer. !!!!!

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2008, 10:16:00 am »
Been there, done that, wrote the script and it still hurts like hell.Just call me Miss Ennis or Ennisina if you prefer. !!!!!
I'm in that boat too.
I identified with Ennis so much after watching the movie.
Thats how me got here!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2008, 10:44:43 am »
I'm in that boat too.
I identified with Ennis so much after watching the movie.
Thats how me got here!

Ditto, and that's why the film just about killed me.It is no exaggeration to say, that wounds I thought had healed were in fact just as wide open as they had always been. BBM was so painful ,that it actually plunged me into the first major depressive episode I have had in over 20 years.
In my attempts to run away,and deny the truth,I moved 8000 miles.What did that change,nothing.Love IS  a force of nature. I behaved in the same cowardly fashion as Ennis,I do not mean that rudely,and just as Ennis  live with the consequences daily.
Surprise,surprise, the love has not faded at all.Except now, because of kids,etc, there really is no going back.That is one hell of a painful situation to deal with on a daily basis.
It also begs the question, and when the kids move on,what then? I can't bear to even think of that.
Every time I watch BBM and we are talking 2 nought numbers now.I want to scream at Ennis, don't let him go you idiot, have you any idea how much it is going to hurt later on?
That is why I agreed so strongly with your analogy of a dam. Love is a force of nature and as such, we as humans are powerless if we find ourselves in its path.You might as well try and stand in a force 5 hurricane and expect to emerge undamaged.It's not happening.Run, take cover and surrender to the inevitable.Or be left standing surveying the wrecked remains.

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2008, 07:50:16 pm »
Every time I watch BBM and we are talking 2 nought numbers now.I want to scream at Ennis, don't let him go you idiot, have you any idea how much it is going to hurt later on?
That is why I agreed so strongly with your analogy of a dam. Love is a force of nature and as such, we as humans are powerless if we find ourselves in its path.You might as well try and stand in a force 5 hurricane and expect to emerge undamaged.It's not happening.Run, take cover and surrender to the inevitable.Or be left standing surveying the wrecked remains.

Same here. And 20 years on I wonder what would have happened if I hadn't done an Ennis and bolted. Instead you're forever left wondering "what if?" and why the hell didn't I stand up for what I knew was right. Unfortunately I didn't have a Jack to track me down again 4 years later. It took BBM to finally make me realise what I'd been running from for all these years and wake up and realise you don't get a second chance. That was when I realised I've got to live for the day and make the most of whatever comes along. I don't want to find myself another 20 years down the line with only two shirts and memories alone in a trailer (metaphorically speaking). Still doesn't stop you from wondering "what if?" though.  :(


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2008, 08:36:17 pm »
Same here. And 20 years on I wonder what would have happened if I hadn't done an Ennis and bolted. Instead you're forever left wondering "what if?" and why the hell didn't I stand up for what I knew was right. Unfortunately I didn't have a Jack to track me down again 4 years later. It took BBM to finally make me realise what I'd been running from for all these years and wake up and realise you don't get a second chance. That was when I realised I've got to live for the day and make the most of whatever comes along. I don't want to find myself another 20 years down the line with only two shirts and memories alone in a trailer (metaphorically speaking). Still doesn't stop you from wondering "what if?" though.  :(

What if, must be two of the worst words to ever have to live with.There simply is no answer, only endless permutations reviewed on a daily basis. I am not quite at the carpe diem stage yet.It's all a bit too close still.I have nearly 15 years of mess ,and only 2 years distance.I am however trying on a daily basis.This place helps considerably.There really is some comfort in numbers.

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2008, 09:41:01 pm »
"You don't get a second chance."  So right, BlissC!

Let's all try to get to the "carpe diem" stage, hunh, Fiona?

Cheers,
Paul

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2008, 09:48:42 pm »
"You don't get a second chance."  So right, BlissC!

Let's all try to get to the "carpe diem" stage, hunh, Fiona?

Cheers,
Paul

Oh ignore me I  am just being a pretentious twit!!!!!

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2008, 10:28:03 pm »
Oh ignore me I  am just being a pretentious twit!!!!!

Not at all, darlin'.  "Seize the day" is the ultimate Brokeback lesson.  Something we all must strive for.  It's why we're here.

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2008, 10:40:48 pm »
Not at all, darlin'.  "Seize the day" is the ultimate Brokeback lesson.  Something we all must strive for.  It's why we're here.

Don't ask me why that phrase always stuck along with, illegitimi non carborundum, which I think is fake latin.Some words and phrases just seem to have more punch in another language,like Merde!!!! There is no real English equivlaent. But then I am a certified 100% paid up,card carrying, member of nutcases anonymous,so that probably explains a lot of things.

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2008, 10:56:19 pm »
Don't ask me why that phrase always stuck along with, illegitimi non carborundum, which I think is fake latin.Some words and phrases just seem to have more punch in another language,like Merde!!!! There is no real English equivlaent. But then I am a certified 100% paid up,card carrying, member of nutcases anonymous,so that probably explains a lot of things.

Well, from one nut to another, Carpe Diem, dudette!

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2008, 11:54:45 pm »
Well, from one nut to another, Carpe Diem, dudette!

This what I just love about here, no matter how cr- p my day may have been,someone here invariably causes me to raise a smile. I am going to adopt dudette officially now.I hear my kids saying dude all the time,so I'm going to get with the programme.Does this mean I am now officially cool?

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2008, 01:12:20 pm »
This what I just love about here, no matter how cr- p my day may have been,someone here invariably causes me to raise a smile. I am going to adopt dudette officially now.I hear my kids saying dude all the time,so I'm going to get with the programme.Does this mean I am now officially cool?

A dudette by any other name is just as cool. :)

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2008, 05:06:53 pm »
A dudette by any other name is just as cool. :)

Thankyou very muchly !!!  Is that the same as, "that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" ?? by good old Billy wobble dagger,as he was affectionately known to his friends.

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2008, 07:35:02 pm »
What if, must be two of the worst words to ever have to live with.There simply is no answer, only endless permutations reviewed on a daily basis. I am not quite at the carpe diem stage yet.It's all a bit too close still.I have nearly 15 years of mess ,and only 2 years distance.I am however trying on a daily basis.This place helps considerably.There really is some comfort in numbers.

Time does help in some ways. When it's less immediate it's not quite so raw, but then on the other hand with time there's the danger of the "rose tinted spectacles" effect where that time seemed so perfect when if you could actually go back there you'd realise that it was far from perfect, but maybe it was still a damned sight better than now.

You're right though, this place does help a lot. Sometimes I can't believe how much Brokeback has changed my life, and here's the only place you can say something sometimes, and only fellow Brokies recognise what you're saying.

Not at all, darlin'.  "Seize the day" is the ultimate Brokeback lesson.  Something we all must strive for.  It's why we're here.

So true. And in line with my new "seize the day" philosophy, tomorrow I'm going to do something I've been meaning to do for a very long time. You'll have to wait to see what it is though. I'm saying nothing until the deed is done.  ;)

Back on "what ifs" and "what might have beens" though, I'll leave you for now with one of my poems. It's one of my early ones from the time when things were very raw and I hadn't got much distance - probably one of my most prolific times for poetry - I've got pages and pages of my ramblings, all saying pretty much the same thing in different ways - in hindsight, "there are places we can't return to"... 

For Posterity

In the light
of the twinkle
of an eye,
And in the movement
of an arm,
In the frame
of my mind
You are perfect.

The instructions
Were so simple,
Just press,
Rewind,
Review.
But the makers
never told us,
there are things
it just can't do.

So we're left
with old technology
And a frame
that won't rewind,
And the
twinkle of an eye
and the pose
of an arm are held
forever in time.

(c) Bliss Carrington, 19.3.91


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2008, 08:13:41 pm »
Time does help in some ways. When it's less immediate it's not quite so raw, but then on the other hand with time there's the danger of the "rose tinted spectacles" effect where that time seemed so perfect when if you could actually go back there you'd realise that it was far from perfect, but maybe it was still a damned sight better than now.

You're right though, this place does help a lot. Sometimes I can't believe how much Brokeback has changed my life, and here's the only place you can say something sometimes, and only fellow Brokies recognise what you're saying.

So true. And in line with my new "seize the day" philosophy, tomorrow I'm going to do something I've been meaning to do for a very long time. You'll have to wait to see what it is though. I'm saying nothing until the deed is done.  ;)

Back on "what ifs" and "what might have beens" though, I'll leave you for now with one of my poems. It's one of my early ones from the time when things were very raw and I hadn't got much distance - probably one of my most prolific times for poetry - I've got pages and pages of my ramblings, all saying pretty much the same thing in different ways - in hindsight, "there are places we can't return to"... 

For Posterity

In the light
of the twinkle
of an eye,
And in the movement
of an arm,
In the frame
of my mind
You are perfect.

The instructions
Were so simple,
Just press,
Rewind,
Review.
But the makers
never told us,
there are things
it just can't do.

So we're left
with old technology
And a frame
that won't rewind,
And the
twinkle of an eye
and the pose
of an arm are held
forever in time.

(c) Bliss Carrington, 19.3.91


I love your poem. Why is it we can only write poetry when depressed,or at least that is the way it is for me.
I am also bursting with curiosity,to see what the "deed" is. I will just have to be patient I guess,not a virtued I am overly known for.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2008, 09:46:47 pm »
As English isn't my first language and I am not good with words even in my own language  I hope I'll be able to express what I feel.
The There are places we can't return to me it means the time up on Brockback was a time when they still had a future ahead of them, and above all they had the freedom to choose what to do with their own lives. Yes, the world was hostile towards their love (even if Ennis at the time didn't acknowledge it as such) but they had the freedom to make decisions, to take a different path if they wanted to. They were no wives (Alma was only a girlfriend, she and Ennis hadn't even slept together yet), no children, Ennis in particular didn't  have a family to report /to justify to, his father wasn't there  to frighten/threaten him any longer,  They had a chance, in my opinion a very big one too, and they missed it.
Brokeback wasn't just a place when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong and of imagined power, the power was actually there, had they been able to see it and grasp it.  Of course they did they best they could given the circumstances and with the knowledge they had at the time.   Later came the commitments, wives, children, and they could no longer return to that place of power. 
IMHO that's why Brokeback  is a place they can't return to.


This is a wonderful thread.  Thank you, Chrissie, for starting it.  I also want to say thank you to our new friend Sel who had such great insights, and if English isn't your first language, then perhaps it should be, because you did a damned fine job of expressing yourself with wisdom and clarity.  Good for you.

I was so touched by seeing that trailer again, it was priceless.  And tearjerking, of course.  Which one of us could possibly watch this film without crying????  Duh....  Count to zero much?

I also really love what Fiona had to say.  Your words were magical on this thread.  I know that you meant every one of them.  Thank you for sharing your heart with us.

I leave this with good, positive wishes for BlissC's experiment (whatever it may entail -- good luck, girl), and with the everlasting hope that Rich will one day break down (in a good way) and finally let himself enjoy/grieve over/get over/embrace again this beautiful film.  Cheers to all!  Great thread.
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2008, 08:48:53 pm »
Sel. Ennis and Jack had NO freedom to make such decision to stay together as lovers !!

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2008, 04:54:18 am »
I haven't been  to this thread for a few days. WOW! It is so full of insight, every single post. BlissC I like your poem very much. I am very happy to have found BetterMost.


I also want to say thank you to our new friend Sel who had such great insights, and if English isn't your first language, then perhaps it should be, because you did a damned fine job of expressing yourself with wisdom and clarity.  Good for you.

Thank you Mandy for your encouragement. Both my written and spoken English used to be much better, but nowadays I hardly ever get the chance to speak it.

Sel. Ennis and Jack had NO freedom to make such decision to stay together as lovers !!

When I say that  J and E had the freedom to choose I didn't think that the road ahead would have been dead simple, not at all. I am sure a lot of difficulties, hard times, risks taking would have expected them.
I know, I belong to a different generation, I was born and live on a different continent, I am not gay. However I feel they had a better chance of living their love had they not married, had they moved out of Wyoming, and so on. I am not accusing them for not making those choices, they did the best the could considering the time and the place they were living in, and their experiences up to then. Jack was more adventurous and optimistic which helped, or may be not, as we are left to wonder how he died. IMHO.
Although in different circumstances I can remember all too well a time in my life around J and E's age when I had that power and couldn't use it , as if I didn't have the tools, or may be the tools were there  but I didn't know how to use them.
BbM, I swear

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2008, 09:28:08 am »
Sel. Ennis and Jack had NO freedom to make such decision to stay together as lovers !!

When I say that  J and E had the freedom to choose I didn't think that the road ahead would have been dead simple, not at all. I am sure a lot of difficulties, hard times, risks taking would have expected them.
I know, I belong to a different generation, I was born and live on a different continent, I am not gay. However I feel they had a better chance of living their love had they not married, had they moved out of Wyoming, and so on. I am not accusing them for not making those choices, they did the best the could considering the time and the place they were living in, and their experiences up to then. Jack was more adventurous and optimistic which helped, or may be not, as we are left to wonder how he died. IMHO.
Although in different circumstances I can remember all too well a time in my life around J and E's age when I had that power and couldn't use it , as if I didn't have the tools, or may be the tools were there  but I didn't know how to use them.

I agree with Sel. They did have the freedom to make a choice, just as we all do in various aspects of our lives, at least for a time they did, but given circumstances and their experiences they didn't feel that they had that choice. As Sel said, it wouldn't have been easy, but there are times in the story when maybe they might have had the opportunity to change their lives.

Maybe after they came down from the mountain neither was ready or in a situation to be able to make that kind of life changing decision (though Ennis does say that a year later he realised he shouldn't have let Jack go), but later, Jack had a plan, which given the situation with LD wanting him out of his daughter's life, may just have been a workable plan. Later still, after Ennis's divorce was another potential opportunity, but again Ennis didn't feel that his circumstances allowed him to make that decision.

I think few people blame them for the decisions they took - they were the product of their upbringing, experiences, situation and time - but given the will and the courage just maybe things might have turned out differently. The only things in life we have no freedom over are death and taxes, but given human consciousness and self awareness, everything else can be influenced by choices (okay, a bit of an over-simplification, but I hope you get what I mean).


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2008, 09:36:17 am »
I love your poem. Why is it we can only write poetry when depressed,or at least that is the way it is for me.

Thanks. Same for me, mostly, though I do have a few inspired by more cheerful things. I guess it's partly because we tend to be most affected by things we feel strongly, and on the whole creativity's a "from the heart" thing. I guess part of it too's trying to make sense of it all - looking back, I have tons of poems all with a similar feel and about the same thing. How much they helped me make sense of it all's debatable, but just getting something down on paper I often find helps.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2008, 09:36:46 am »
Merci Bliss !

It is hard to understand you, as it is so with Ennis and Jack to be understood ??

Likely or maybe so, may I say !

You want some details ? Warning: you might not like what I will say in parts or in totally !!

Au revoir,
hugs !

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2008, 02:14:29 pm »
Yes, that's all about the same for me too, applied to various times in my life when I have been strongly affected by some event/movie/music, etc.  I am thankful to have the capacity to feel on this level at all, even if it is sometimes sadness.



That was always the problem with me and my meds.I wanted to run the massive gauntlet of my emotions.It was only the last bout of crippling depression when I thought,uh oh, this is really not fun.
But given my time over,I would still choose the highs and lows,rather than the middle lane of my husband,who once even  admitted to envy.We had just walked out of Notre Dame cathedral, where I had been reduced to tears ,by its simultaneous beauty and the glorious soaring voices of the choir.He turned to me and said,"sometimes I wish I could feel what you do"He asked me to try and explain,but I couldn't,it was impossible.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2008, 04:05:49 pm »
Optom, since you talk about medication, you realized that Ennis and Jack were taking booze like that too ??

Instead of being lovers au naturel right away ! So, society pushed them even on that mountain to take alcohol ?

Shame !

?

Au revoir,
hugs!  Maybe, they did not need booze after, hopefully ??

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2008, 05:35:51 pm »
Optom, since you talk about medication, you realized that Ennis and Jack were taking booze like that too ??

Instead of being lovers au naturel right away ! So, society pushed them even on that mountain to take alcohol ?

Shame !

?

Au revoir,
hugs!  Maybe, they did not need booze after, hopefully ??

I always thought the alcohol was a means to an end,the emotion and attraction were there, but it took the the loosening/relaxing power of alcohol to liberate them,particularly Ennis.
I sometimes wonder if Jack is almost unconciously or even deliberately trying to get Ennis drunk.I do not mean in a calculating wicked way,but as an aid to something he has acknowledged in himself and sees in Ennis.
We recognise fellow sufferers. I was very anorexic in my teens and to this day have to watch myself. But I can now spot an anorexic at 50 paces,We intuitively know.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2008, 07:30:26 pm »
Optom, since you talk about medication, you realized that Ennis and Jack were taking booze like that too ??

Instead of being lovers au naturel right away ! So, society pushed them even on that mountain to take alcohol ?

Shame !


I'm just sitting here, shaking my head, wondering how exactly "society" pushes people to "take alcohol"?  What are you talking about?  People CHOOSE to drink for a multitude of reasons.  SOCIETY doesn't make anybody drink.  I really have a hard time understanding what in the heck you are talking about sometimes, Artiste, and I wish you wouldn't just make far-out-there statements like the one above, without any explanation.  Some people could take offense at many of the things you say, including this one, so I wish you would back them up a little better.  Thank you.
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2008, 08:01:40 pm »
I do not take offence at what you say so far... and so you do not understand !

Many persons are blind that they are brainwashed in order to take alcohol, you know that don't you ?

At least, I am not an alcoholic nor a drug taker nor pusher !

Did you not see that Ennis and Jack take alcohol ??

No one can be that blind to that ??

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2008, 08:51:54 pm »
Instead of hiding, it is grand to let out directly you being sad or in joy, at all times, especially when watching the BM movie, I find !

Isn't that what the film is about ?

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2008, 09:10:11 pm »
I always thought the alcohol was a means to an end,the emotion and attraction were there, but it took the the loosening/relaxing power of alcohol to liberate them,particularly Ennis.
I sometimes wonder if Jack is almost unconciously or even deliberately trying to get Ennis drunk.I do not mean in a calculating wicked way,but as an aid to something he has acknowledged in himself and sees in Ennis.

I think part of it was simply that what young men, back then as well as now, and cowboys no less than any others I guess, just do drink alcohol. Drinking whiskey after their meal was just a natural thing to do, and certainly no-one forced them to drink...I recall the Basque advising Ennis not to order soup, but I don't recall him insisting they must order whiskey.  ;)

I have wondered that myself though. While it might have been natural to have a drink after their meal, maybe Jack encouraged Ennis to drink more? TS1 occurred after Ennis had stayed in the camp because he was too drunk to go back out to the sheep. Before TS2 IIRC they'd also spent the evening drinking.

Instead of being lovers au naturel right away ! So, society pushed them even on that mountain to take alcohol ?
 

I think it was only in later years that Jack had a problem with drinking (at least according to Lureen, though I guess the accuracy of that statement and her interpretation of "drank a lot" is open to interpretation), and there's nothing in the SS to suggest they drank excessively on a regular basis on the mountain, any more than any young guys would. Artiste, as Mandy21 says that statement has no basis in fact. If you're saying that it took alcohol for them to get the confidence to become lovers, then maybe yes, that could have been part of it, but that's nothing that "society" pushed them to do, and is a common occurance in all walks of life. Hands up anyone who hasn't at some point in their life had a couple of drinks to get the "dutch courage" to approach someone they really liked, or to take a relationship further...


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Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2008, 10:38:30 pm »
Bless you, BlissC.  I agree with everything you said.  It never occurred to me that what Jack or Ennis did, in terms of their drinking, was strange or out of the ordinary.  They were young men, full of piss and vinegar, trying to look tough.  And of course I've known plenty of people who felt they needed a drink or two or ten, as the case may be, to bolster their confidence to do something they were scared of, including approaching / being with someone they were attracted to.  It's just my humble opinion that Ennis chose on his own that night to drink that much so that he would have an excuse to stay in the camp with Jack and see what might happen.  Jack wasn't pouring it down his throat, that's for sure.  The whiskey seemed to always be there, just like the beans were always there.  Ever present, it seemed.  Thanks for making me re-analyze this point, though.  I appreciate that.
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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2008, 10:43:07 pm »
Many persons never drank in order to have excellent sex and a mutual relationship !!

Surely !

In the BM movie, booze is too much and unclears Ennis and Jack minds, unfortunately !!




Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2008, 10:45:25 pm »
Booze does not save lives; it does the opposite !!

It is now a known fact that alcohol destroys brains cells !

Ennis and Jack would have had much clearer minds, had they not drank booze ??

Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2008, 10:52:19 pm »
Artiste, it is not "now a known fact" that booze, as you call it, destroys brain cells.  Pretty much always been a known fact.

Could you maybe try to prove a point here?  Are you saying that if there was no whiskey up on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis would have never fallen in love?  Cause that's the only thing I can guess that you're trying to say here, and if that's the case, it's a ridiculous one.  Whiskey or no whiskey, I believe they'd have still fallen in love and still made love.  Maybe it would have taken them a little longer to get over their fear and shyness, but it would have still happened, regardless of "booze".
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2008, 11:42:24 pm »
Artiste, it is not "now a known fact" that booze, as you call it, destroys brain cells.  Pretty much always been a known fact.

Could you maybe try to prove a point here?  Are you saying that if there was no whiskey up on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis would have never fallen in love?  Cause that's the only thing I can guess that you're trying to say here, and if that's the case, it's a ridiculous one.  Whiskey or no whiskey, I believe they'd have still fallen in love and still made love.  Maybe it would have taken them a little longer to get over their fear and shyness, but it would have still happened, regardless of "booze".

Agreed, as I said at the start I think alcohol was just a relaxer,I wondered initially, if Jack was silently complicit.In reading some of the other replies I think I have come full circle.It was going to happen anyway,the consumtion probably just hastened things along.If I think about it,normally if alcohol  causes us to have sex with somone and then regret it in the cold sober light of day, we are not usually in a hurry to repeat the mistake.We move on quickly and try and put it behind us.Jack and Ennis suffered no such qualms,hence TS2 and many more over the years.
As is also mentioned in a post, it is what young men in those circumstances would do.Hell it's probably what I would do,cold fed up and the only company being those few hours at night.

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2008, 07:28:04 am »
Artiste, it is not "now a known fact" that booze, as you call it, destroys brain cells.  Pretty much always been a known fact.

Could you maybe try to prove a point here?  Are you saying that if there was no whiskey up on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis would have never fallen in love?  Cause that's the only thing I can guess that you're trying to say here, and if that's the case, it's a ridiculous one.  Whiskey or no whiskey, I believe they'd have still fallen in love and still made love.  Maybe it would have taken them a little longer to get over their fear and shyness, but it would have still happened, regardless of "booze".

Young, hormones at their peak, lying next to the man of your dream (or woman for that metter), alcohol or not, how could anyone resist not to make an attempt at making a pass?! The alcohol certainly helped in making a rather bold one but Jack, as opposed to Ennis, was a risk taker.
 
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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2008, 08:32:56 am »
It's just my humble opinion that Ennis chose on his own that night to drink that much so that he would have an excuse to stay in the camp with Jack and see what might happen.  Jack wasn't pouring it down his throat, that's for sure.

That's a good point. Though as Sel said, Jack was the risk taker, and made the first move, as I think I've mentioned before somewhere, from Jack's first move and Ennis's shock to Ennis deciding TS1 was a good idea so to speak, IIRC was less than around 10 seconds, which would suggest that Ennis had indeed considered the possibility of this already.

Ennis in particular was very conscious of their responsibility to care for the sheep, and having worked on the mountain for a number of weeks, he'd have known how difficult and dangerous it would be to make it back to where the sheep were pastured in the dark and while drunk, so he must have had a pretty good reason to drink enough that he wouldn't be able to make it back to the sheep. The more I think about it Mandy, that POV makes a lot of sense.


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Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2008, 09:12:45 am »
Thanks, Bliss.  I remember the scene where Jack came back to camp saying, "I spend 4 hours a day commuting", considering the two trips he had to make each day, for breakfast and supper, which would mean the journey back to where they "pasture the woolies" would be 1 hour, at least, when you were sober.  Goodness knows if you'd even find your way, in a drunken condition.  I'm sure Ennis knew that Jack knew that presumption.  Don't even think about trying to find your way A) in complete darkness, with only the moon as your guide, and B) drunk as a skunk.  Jack was always the less responsible one, when it came to taking care of those sheep, so I think Ennis knew he wouldn't get any grief from Jack if he got a little too drunk and decided to forego the trip back to them on that first evening.

But this makes me think about something else, and I hope I don't offend anybody with this.  Most men who've been drinking too much can last a really, REALLY long time.  And most virgins can last no time at all.  Why is it, do you think, that the first time was over so quickly, considering Ennis was both drunk AND a virgin?  Hmmmmm......  Thoughts?
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2008, 09:37:46 am »
Merci to all of you as you pose good questions and replies, may I assert somehow... in turn.

Some men ONLY have sex, when they took alcohol, unfortunately ! According to my experiences, to what I have seen !

I now stay away from such persons, for many reasons which you can guess.

One reason is that I have found them not only bad in sex, but also very badly in thinking before and afterwards !

It seems to me, that clear thought is essential in living !

That being said, I wonder if Ennis and Jack would have sex WITHOUT booze, and the answer is YES, eventually (since as optom says alcohol precipitates).

Therefore, Ennis and Jack would have been, to me, likely lovers FOR LIFE much, much better - with and/or without being married to their ladies !!

Plus, if they would have gotten married to those ladies, they would have educated those females to accept them as either bis or gays !! May I dare say...

and au revoir,
hugs!         My lover/buddy ( a gay man) was alcoholic when I (a gay man) discovered him, and he did not want me at first, as he sought only quick pleasures like Ennis and Jack, but when he saw that there was more which was non-alcohol pleasures, he even became to go to the soup-kitchen to help the poor, and brought food to feed the unfeed !! Without alcohol, he started to discover life was brilliant, joyful !! And he made a circle a gay friends too with mutual help for them and from them !! Of course, he also continued to help heterosexuals and others too !! He became to enrich society and culture !!

Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2008, 09:48:28 am »
Artiste, that's wonderful that you were able to help someone who was seeing through clouded eyes, see clearly.  Not many drinking people can be influenced in such a way.  Good for you, and for him!  I've always found that the times in my life when I give up drinking completely, are most definitely the happiest.  But it's always a hard struggle.  Alcoholics are definitely self-destructive, and the temptation to go back to that admittedly unhappy place and self is always there.  There's no way to explain it properly to someone who is not an alcoholic, someone who hasn't been in that place before.  And I'm sure your "lover/buddy" struggles sometimes.  As humans, we all have weaknesses; otherwise, we wouldn't be human.  But I'm happy you were able to help someone see a bit more clearly.
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2008, 12:05:50 pm »
Thanks, Bliss.  I remember the scene where Jack came back to camp saying, "I spend 4 hours a day commuting", considering the two trips he had to make each day, for breakfast and supper, which would mean the journey back to where they "pasture the woolies" would be 1 hour, at least, when you were sober.  Goodness knows if you'd even find your way, in a drunken condition.  I'm sure Ennis knew that Jack knew that presumption.  Don't even think about trying to find your way A) in complete darkness, with only the moon as your guide, and B) drunk as a skunk.  Jack was always the less responsible one, when it came to taking care of those sheep, so I think Ennis knew he wouldn't get any grief from Jack if he got a little too drunk and decided to forego the trip back to them on that first evening.

But this makes me think about something else, and I hope I don't offend anybody with this.  Most men who've been drinking too much can last a really, REALLY long time.  And most virgins can last no time at all.  Why is it, do you think, that the first time was over so quickly, considering Ennis was both drunk AND a virgin?  Hmmmmm......  Thoughts?

I am so glad you brought up the staying power subject.It has niggled at me for ages.Maybe the drink would have slowed things,but the Virginity speeds it up.Also he had been attempting to sleep for a while,so maybe some of the effects of alcohol may have worn off.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2008, 12:43:17 pm »
Merci Sel !

You say:
     Young, hormones at their peak, lying next to the man of your dream (or woman for that metter), alcohol or not, how could anyone resist not to make an attempt at making a pass?! The alcohol certainly helped in making a rather bold one but Jack, as opposed to Ennis, was a risk taker.
 
 
 
       

..........

Sel to reply to you and to others:
May I say yes that Jack was the risk taker as you said rightly Sel, and, therefore, he would have had Ennis as his lover much better without booze !!

Jack was already cruising Ennis, the first time he laid eyes in him, did you know ?

So, it was just a matter of time to sleep together !!

If man to man sex had not been seen as evil or sin in society before Ennis and Jack meet, they would have been in bed together much much sooner, right ??

Man to man sex is seen by Islam and other so-called religion and non-religious as evil or sin for what ? To dominate others ??

Au revoir,
hugs!  There is peace and joy without evil in man to man sex, and that is reasonable too !! No need to punish yourself for being natural !! Why sacrifice yourself to evils of others ??

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2008, 12:45:18 pm »
It's just my humble opinion that Ennis chose on his own that night to drink that much so that he would have an excuse to stay in the camp with Jack and see what might happen.  Jack wasn't pouring it down his throat, that's for sure. 

That's a good point. Though as Sel said, Jack was the risk taker, and made the first move, as I think I've mentioned before somewhere, from Jack's first move and Ennis's shock to Ennis deciding TS1 was a good idea so to speak, IIRC was less than around 10 seconds, which would suggest that Ennis had indeed considered the possibility of this already.

Help! Don't know what IIRC stands for.  :-\
I agree,  IMO Ennis had certainly been fantasizing a lot about having sex with Jack, as considering he was a vergin he was very fast in saying yes to Jack  and on deciding what to do.
BbM, I swear

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2008, 12:53:14 pm »
If man to man sex had not been seen as evil or sin in society before Ennis and Jack meet, they would have been in bed together much much sooner, right ??

Most definitely!

I am very glad that your friend's story has had a happy ending. You must be very proud of him.
BbM, I swear

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2008, 12:59:59 pm »
Merci sel !

Yes, I am very proud of Wayne still, even since his is now dead, which death however, I figure, was caused by an MD who does not like gays nor Christians no Jews !!

So, the deaths and fears in the BM story to me are like that too, some realism like in our present society which I see as becoming too Islamic anti-gay and too China anti-human !!

Hard to understand ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2008, 01:00:37 pm »
But this makes me think about something else, and I hope I don't offend anybody with this.  Most men who've been drinking too much can last a really, REALLY long time.  And most virgins can last no time at all.  Why is it, do you think, that the first time was over so quickly, considering Ennis was both drunk AND a virgin?  Hmmmmm......  Thoughts?

Had no idea booze would have that effect!  Never had sex with a drunken guy. You learn something new every day.
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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2008, 04:03:39 pm »
But this makes me think about something else, and I hope I don't offend anybody with this.  Most men who've been drinking too much can last a really, REALLY long time.  And most virgins can last no time at all.  Why is it, do you think, that the first time was over so quickly, considering Ennis was both drunk AND a virgin?  Hmmmmm......  Thoughts?

Good point! That's something that's niggled me too (along with Ennis's very sudden change from shock at Jack's advances to until I figured he was obviously considering this turn of events beforehand), but the alcohol/virginity and sleeping/processing alcohol explanation could explain it I guess. I wonder if anyone's done any research on the staying power of cowboys after the consumption of alcohol?  :P  :laugh:

So, the deaths and fears in the BM story to me are like that too, some realism like in our present society which I see as becoming too Islamic anti-gay and too China anti-human !!

Anyone mind if I stick my fingers in my ears and start chanting "la, la, la" very loudly?  ;)

Help! Don't know what IIRC stands for.  :-\

IIRC = If I remember/recall correctly.  ;)


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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2008, 04:31:39 pm »
Had no idea booze would have that effect!  Never had sex with a drunken guy. You learn something new every day.

It's true and it's also nowhere near  good as it sounds, quite the opposite,  yawn!!!!

Now how did we get here from there are places etc ??

Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2008, 05:04:48 pm »
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I was wondering that myself earlier when I found myself checking which thread I was posting on. Ah well, it's still all BBM (mainly), so I guess all's well in the world.  ;D


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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2008, 05:58:32 pm »
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I was wondering that myself earlier when I found myself checking which thread I was posting on. Ah well, it's still all BBM (mainly), so I guess all's well in the world.  ;D
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2008, 07:45:06 pm »
Most boozers that I had sex with, either are good just for quick sex or no sex at all since they can not get it on. Alcoholics, have more and more difficulties having sex, and eventually they can not get it hard at all, unfortunately !!

So, maybe I can guess that Ennis and Jack had less and less sex, if they kept on drinking booze all those years ?

And of course, with booze, communications are harder an dharder too, and at times null, since it's hard to listen and to talk clearly !! Sad too !!

Remember the difficulties more and more that Ennis and Jack had ??

Even if they did meet regularly in some ways, they had commnications troubles !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2008, 08:52:02 pm »
Good point! That's something that's niggled me too (along with Ennis's very sudden change from shock at Jack's advances to until I figured he was obviously considering this turn of events beforehand), but the alcohol/virginity and sleeping/processing alcohol explanation could explain it I guess. I wonder if anyone's done any research on the staying power of cowboys after the consumption of alcohol?  :P  :laugh:

Hopefully some of our "cowboys" on this site will chime in with their two cents on this topic?  Maybe when they get back from the Roundup.
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Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2008, 08:59:14 pm »
Had no idea booze would have that effect!  Never had sex with a drunken guy. You learn something new every day.

Hey Sel, I must say that I have had some very interesting, long-lasting sessions with boyfriends after they've had two or three glasses of wine with dinner.  I agree with Fiona that a "drunk" man is no fun in the sack, there's really no point, but a slightly tipsy man is a bazillion tons of fun, in terms of duration, and of voraciousness, and of creativity, for that matter.  Fond memories...  Just a tip.
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2008, 12:19:38 am »
Hey Sel, I must say that I have had some very interesting, long-lasting sessions with boyfriends after they've had two or three glasses of wine with dinner.  I agree with Fiona that a "drunk" man is no fun in the sack, there's really no point, but a slightly tipsy man is a bazillion tons of fun, in terms of duration, and of voraciousness, and of creativity, for that matter.  Fond memories...  Just a tip.

You hit the nail on the head there,tipsy good, drunk go home .

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2008, 01:46:33 am »
Seems like good advice for all of us!



Oh you know me, I just dole out the advice,don't seem to have got to grips with taking it myself.
Rearrange the following into a well known phrase.Pot ,kettle sounds like,calling, black. That pretty well sums me up.!!

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2008, 03:33:02 am »
Merci sel !
Yes, I am very proud of Wayne still, even since his is now dead, which death however, I figure, was caused by an MD who does not like gays nor Christians no Jews !!

It is good to know though that your friend gave his life plenty of meaning.


So, maybe I can guess that Ennis and Jack had less and less sex, if they kept on drinking booze all those years ?

Remember the difficulties more and more that Ennis and Jack had ??

Even if they did meet regularly in some ways, they had commnications troubles !!

I find myself disagreeing with you on this one. The SS goes:
One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough.
When J and E were together, over the years, they didn't drink so much, not to the stage were they wouldn't have managed to make love. They lived all those years for those moments when they were together. J might have had sex with the Mexican prostitute, with Randall, but he made love to E.  J ended up drinking heavily as he was unsatisfied with his life. IMHO.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 08:11:35 am by sel »
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Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2008, 03:43:27 am »
IIRC = If I remember/recall correctly.  ;)

Thank you BlissC!

Hey Sel, I must say that I have had some very interesting, long-lasting sessions with boyfriends after they've had two or three glasses of wine with dinner.  I agree with Fiona that a "drunk" man is no fun in the sack, there's really no point, but a slightly tipsy man is a bazillion tons of fun, in terms of duration, and of voraciousness, and of creativity, for that matter.  Fond memories...  Just a tip.

You hit the nail on the head there,tipsy good, drunk go home .

Ok, that's the rule: Tipsy is ok, drunk isn't   ;)

Hmmm, can't remember the original theme of this thread either!  :laugh:
BbM, I swear

Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2008, 05:27:38 am »
This is a great topic.

Well, I'm a little late to the party, but ... 2 cents worth?

'There are places we can't return' is, for me, core to the whole story.
Maybe it could have been 'There are places we won't return' ? E & J could have returned to the love they knew, but maybe it was too hard, or too dangerous? It seemed to be like that for Ennis, at least.
Whichever way, the emotion stirred by that one thought is central to the reason why BBM is so special, and maybe why some folks watch it again and again? Perhaps they think it could have been different, and want to find some explanation of why E & J were denied each other, and settled for a more socially acceptable life ?

Whilst E & J couldn't (or wouldn't) be together, they continued to love each other. And that is something that Brokies do. They love each other, even though they are not together.

A lady I knew was divorced for 4 years and had no kind words for her ex, who ran off with another woman. She once cried on my shoulder that she missed him. Puzzled, I asked why, if he was so bad. Her answer, between sobs, was .. 'I miss him as he used to be'. She didn't miss what he did, but she missed his love. I think sometimes that's how a lot of people feel.

Don't know how the thoughts on alcohol became so entwined, here, but guess it's part and parcel of the whole story.
Some (relatively) recent research indicates that alcohol lowers tetosterone levels in men, reducing their inhibitions but also their libido, whilst it increases testosterone level in women, reducing their inhibitions but having the opposite effect on their libido. But, of course, we all knew that before the official results came out.
In the making of BBM, I guess there wasn't enough run-time for reduced libido. ;D
 

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2008, 08:23:07 am »
Quote
A lady I knew was divorced for 4 years and had no kind words for her ex, who ran off with another woman. She once cried on my shoulder that she missed him. Puzzled, I asked why, if he was so bad. Her answer, between sobs, was .. 'I miss him as he used to be'. She didn't miss what he did, but she missed his love. I think sometimes that's how a lot of people feel.
This is a great point!
I can relate to it a lot. We can never go backto how it used to be which is sometime the hardest thing to take.
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Offline Mandy21

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2008, 08:51:01 am »
This is a great point!
I can relate to it a lot. We can never go backto how it used to be which is sometime the hardest thing to take.

Hey Rich, good morning.  I think what you said is quite true of BBM, and of life in general.  If we're lucky, we have so many special and precious moments in our life, moments which we should memorize and embrace and treasure.  But then they're gone, just like that, in the blink of an eye.  And we're left waiting for the next special moment to come along.  Sometimes, we're left waiting for far too long.  I think the whole point of life is to recognize those moments AS THEY ARE HAPPENING, which we tend not to do for whatever reasons.  Maybe we're just scared that we don't deserve for that much happiness to be coming our way in the first place.  Wouldn't it be great if we could all get over our fears and insecurities from the past, and actually LIVE LIVE LIVE and LOVE LOVE LOVE in the present?

Next question -- would BBM have been such a treasured film to us IF Jack and Ennis had started a real life committed completely to each other, in full view of the world?  IMHO, no.  Part of the allure of the film is the tragedy that they didn't.  Ennis reading the "DECEASED" postcard on the street, and the look on his face that he can't even wrap his head around the concept of living in a world where his one great love no longer breathed.  If only he had a second chance.....  If only.....
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2008, 09:54:57 am »
Hey Rich, good morning.  I think what you said is quite true of BBM, and of life in general.  If we're lucky, we have so many special and precious moments in our life, moments which we should memorize and embrace and treasure.  But then they're gone, just like that, in the blink of an eye.  And we're left waiting for the next special moment to come along.  Sometimes, we're left waiting for far too long.  I think the whole point of life is to recognize those moments AS THEY ARE HAPPENING, which we tend not to do for whatever reasons.  Maybe we're just scared that we don't deserve for that much happiness to be coming our way in the first place.  Wouldn't it be great if we could all get over our fears and insecurities from the past, and actually LIVE LIVE LIVE and LOVE LOVE LOVE in the present?

Next question -- would BBM have been such a treasured film to us IF Jack and Ennis had started a real life committed completely to each other, in full view of the world?  IMHO, no.  Part of the allure of the film is the tragedy that they didn't.  Ennis reading the "DECEASED" postcard on the street, and the look on his face that he can't even wrap his head around the concept of living in a world where his one great love no longer breathed.  If only he had a second chance.....  If only.....

Is it our tragedy as humans that we don't recognise our perfect time until it has passed.It seems to be a recurring theme for many of us here.Maybe we are so busy planning for the next one or thinking ahead that we miss out on the here and now,realising only with hindsight that it has already gone.
The double tragedy in BBM is that not only do they never manage to go back, but their last meeting was so upsetting.
I insist if any of us in my family have an argument and we do,plenty, that we make up before parting for bed,work school whatever. I do not want any of us to live with the guilt of angry words being our last memory.In effect Ennis has to live with that memory as well, which compounds the misery.

Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2008, 10:32:28 am »
Hey, those posts are great.
Maybe one of the most important messages the film has: that we should never be afraid to love, never miss the opportunity to show it, nor to receive it, and always try to put love before our own pride and material wants?
 

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #109 on: June 02, 2008, 01:50:13 pm »
And to be willing to take a risk ....



That is probably the biggest one,it means a blind leap of faith which is so difficult for many of us. It reminds me of the trust exercise, where you have to let yourself fall backwards and trust the person at your back will catch you. It always seemed relatively easy for me,nut I think tat had less to do with trust and more to do with an impulsive streak.
I remember one day with the oldest's father,my ex. We were sitting in a wine bar one Sunday afternoon,the next thing we were crossing the chanel on a ferry for France.Well duh !! what about work on Monday !!!!
Still I miss that impulsivity now, much more difficult with 3 kids. I have to at least make a token gesture to responsibility.

Offline sel

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #110 on: June 02, 2008, 03:35:53 pm »
Great posts! I will save this page and go back to it now and again to keep my 'old habits' at bay.
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Offline fernly

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2008, 08:07:45 pm »
"There are places we can't return"

When I was re-reading the SS, I noticed two references that I'd skimmed over before...
At the time of their last trip together, Ennis isn't living in Riverton, he's "...in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit"
and also, "...Ennis was ready to head back to Signal, Jack up to Lightning Flat"

In the movie, he's living, or at least getting his mail, in Riverton at the time of Jack's death. And his trailer is outside of Riverton.

Why the change in the movie from the story do you think?

And why did Annie have him go back, at some point after the divorce, to where he'd met Jack?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #112 on: June 25, 2008, 10:33:49 pm »
"There are places we can't return"

When I was re-reading the SS, I noticed two references that I'd skimmed over before...
At the time of their last trip together, Ennis isn't living in Riverton, he's "...in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit"
and also, "...Ennis was ready to head back to Signal, Jack up to Lightning Flat"

In the movie, he's living, or at least getting his mail, in Riverton at the time of Jack's death. And his trailer is outside of Riverton.

Why the change in the movie from the story do you think?

Could just be a mundane movie-making consideration. They already had "the Riverton Post Office" to film Heath with the returned postcard. It eliminates need for more exposition in the script. I don't seem to remember Signal being mentioned by name after Jack offers to give Ennis a loan when they get to Signal.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2008, 08:34:27 am »
Hey, those posts are great.
Maybe one of the most important messages the film has: that we should never be afraid to love, never miss the opportunity to show it, nor to receive it, and always try to put love before our own pride and material wants?
 
Sometimes though, thats just so hard to do. :-\
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"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 18/08: The lines from the trailer
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2008, 11:26:25 am »
Sometimes though, thats just so hard to do. :-\

That is soo right, and pretty well sums up me.It is often easier to toe the party line and as such upset as few people as possible.We all want to be liked as well as loved.In some cases the accepting of one, means the automatic invoking of the other. Very, very difficult.
The other fact that rings through a lot of peoples personal experiences, is that even when trying to do  "the right thing" ultimately you end up being so miserable, that the very people you were trying to protect become wounded all the same.