Did Ennis Flirt?

[Brown Eyes]

Prior to TS1 do you think any of Ennis's behavior or statements could be perceived as forms of flirting?  Even if he's not entirely aware of himself at this early stage... are his desires betraying themselves despite any of Ennis's conscious efforts?

And, if not before TS1... are there points later in the film (or story) that could be perceived as flirtatious on Ennis's part?

[mariez]

Hmm....that's interesting Amanda.    One thing I always noticed in the movie is that he asks to borrow Jack's lighter when they're in the bar - not a huge thing, I know.  But since we see him smoking when he's alone outside the trailer, we know he must have his own matches.  I guess we could say it's just a matter of convenience to use Jack's lighter, but maybe subconsciously he's already trying to make some kind of connection with Jack?  Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.   I'll have to ponder this some more.....

Marie

[Ellemeno]

Marie, I think that's a great point.  It's a classic way to open a conversation with someone one is attracted to.

[LauraGigs]

An interesting thing there is that when their hands touch (as Jack hands the lighter over), Ennis clears his throat and looks around self-consciously, as if thinking, "hope no one else in the room caught that spark". 

[Ellemeno]

An interesting thing there is that when their hands touch (as Jack hands the lighter over), Ennis clears his throat and looks around self-consciously, as if thinking, "hope no one else in the room caught that spark". 

"That thing grabs hold of us..."

[Lynne]

It is now clear to me (at least moreso than viewing 1) that there was some subtle flirting on Ennis' part:

- let's git if you don't want to stand around tying knots all day.

and

- you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity.

!!!

[BelAir]

Hmm....that's interesting Amanda.    One thing I always noticed in the movie is that he asks to borrow Jack's lighter when they're in the bar - not a huge thing, I know.  But since we see him smoking when he's alone outside the trailer, we know he must have his own matches.  I guess we could say it's just a matter of convenience to use Jack's lighter, but maybe subconsciously he's already trying to make some kind of connection with Jack?  Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.   I'll have to ponder this some more.....

Marie

Yep.  He flirts.  The lighter.  Some of the horse and rodeo talk.

He may not know he's doing it.  But he is.

 

[Artiste]

Nearly right away, Ennis did flirt !

[LauraGigs]

It is now clear to me (at least moreso than viewing 1) that there was some subtle flirting on Ennis' part:

- let's git if you don't want to stand around tying knots all day.

and

- you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity.

!!!

"Let's git..." is something Jack said to Ennis.  (Or are you referring to the way Ennis looks at Jack right after that?  He's definitely intrigued – maybe not in a specific sexual sense, but generally.)

But yeah, I agree with BelAir that it's all unconscious on E's part.  Even after he + Jack got together, Ennis would deny having 'flirted' in any way!   

[Brown Eyes]

The question about whether or not Ennis flirted (even subconsciously on his part) is of particular interest I think because it dovetails with a question many folks have about how Jack calculated the risk involved in making the move he did at the beginning of the TS1 encounter.  I mean the clues he must have been picking up leading up to TS1 must have somehow indicated to him that there was a good chance Ennis would respond to Jack's "first move" in a positive way.

I think many aspects of this question have probably been hashed out before, but I still think it's interesting to ponder what exactly led Jack to be so brave in that particular move.

[optom3]

The question about whether or not Ennis flirted (even subconsciously on his part) is of particular interest I think because it dovetails with a question many folks have about how Jack calculated the risk involved in making the move he did at the beginning of the TS1 encounter.  I mean the clues he must have been picking up leading up to TS1 must have somehow indicated to him that there was a good chance Ennis would respond to Jack's "first move" in a positive way.

I think many aspects of this question have probably been hashed out before, but I still think it's interesting to ponder what exactly led Jack to be so brave in that particular move.

You may be a sinner but I aint yet had the opportunity,always strikes me as pretty well a direct come on.I don't even think it is subtle.If I think of myself saying that to someone, I know I would be inferring I am here and available.I might not make the move myself, but I am open to you.More subtle is the fact that Jack manages to make Ennis talk and smile,he must find that encouraging too.
When people fall in love as well as lust,they generally connect on several levels,shared humour, ideas and of course the physical attraction.No one it would appear has brought out the Lighter hearted side of Ennis,in the way that Jack does.That has to be a an indication to Jack that at least on one level the 2 have made a significant connection.
Lust is the easy bit, but to truly draw a person out of themselves is to create a very real bond.Ennis in the SS feels he could" paw the white out of the moon".He is so happy that he is almost high.I wouldn't mind betting, that is the first time Ennis has ever felt such pure unadulterated joy. I love that phrase and I absolutely love Jack for making Ennis feel that way.
Would that we could all have someone who could take us to such heights. I think in real life ,that Matilda made Heath feel like that,so thank goodness he experienced the unbelievable high that undiluted pure love brings,

[Artiste]

Unconscious ?

At least, some of Ennis flirtations are conscious !!

Au revoir,
hugs! 

[Gabreya]

Yeah. Ennis flirted. But it was kept a little bit underwraps.
Oh, if y'all don't mind me adding, the scene where Ennis is bathing nude in the background and Jack was trying hard not to look while cutting potatoes, I heard someone saying that Ennis in a way was sort of inticing Jack. You know, he would've gone down the creek and bathed but no. He was really comfortable aroud his co-worker/friend/soon-to-be beau. Usually he was so shy and introverted that he shoted away from people he wasn't really comfortable with. But, Jack, he felt free and he was attracted to him for sure. 
Hey, it's good that he actually fet comfortable for once in his life, though.

[Artiste]

Gabreya, I love what you say here:

           the scene where Ennis is bathing nude in the background and Jack was trying hard not to look while cutting potatoes, I heard someone saying that Ennis in a way was sort of inticing Jack.                 
.........

And I agree with you and that saying !!

Do you think that Ennis flirted right away when he first saw Jack ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

Yeah. Ennis flirted. But it was kept a little bit underwraps.
Oh, if y'all don't mind me adding, the scene where Ennis is bathing nude in the background and Jack was trying hard not to look while cutting potatoes, I heard someone saying that Ennis in a way was sort of inticing Jack. You know, he would've gone down the creek and bathed but no. He was really comfortable aroud his co-worker/friend/soon-to-be beau. Usually he was so shy and introverted that he shoted away from people he wasn't really comfortable with. But, Jack, he felt free and he was attracted to him for sure. 
Hey, it's good that he actually fet comfortable for once in his life, though.

That's a really interesting point Gabreya.  Ennis's comfort and decision to remain physically close to Jack certainly do indicate how at ease he feels with Jack by that stage.

And, it is worth wondering if, in the way back of his mind... whether he did realize he was being inticing to Jack.  I doubt it would be something he was completely conscious of at that stage.

One practical reason why he may have remained close to camp is that he may have wanted the access to the hot water warmed up by the fire.

But, in any case, your point is certainly a good one.

[Artiste]

It remains that that scene had camera shots, we can all be proud about that camera man/lady !

And it could mean much more than we think yet ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[mariez]

Yeah, I completely agree that Ennis felt comfortable around Jack - I'd even venture a guess that he'd never felt more comfortable with anyone.  But since I don't think Ennis was at all consciously aware of his sexual feelings at that point, I think he saw the nudity as quite innocent and matter-of-fact, kind of like men in a locker room. 

Of course, in the film, we get that wonderfully subtle acting by Jake that indicates that Jack is not quite as "matter-of-fact" about it!

Marie

[Katie77]

Yes Marie, I think you hit the nail on the head there......it was Jack who was flirting, and he was looking for any sign at all that maybe Ennis was catching on to that fact, and maybe even flirting back, even just a little bit.

I think Ennis felt comfortable with Jack right from the start, and that comfort grew more and more every day. And, not only did he feel it, he also felt how comfortable Jack was with him. And I dont think Ennis had felt like that before, with anyone, especially a stranger who he had just met.

They seem to have a similar sense of humour, and they could laugh and talk with one another, and I think Ennis was probably thinking..."This is good, I like being with this guy".....he felt good and relaxed.

I think he was probably flirting humourously, rather than flirting sexually, and maybe somewhere he and Jack realized that it had unconciously moved from being humourous to sexual, and in there own secret way, were enjoying that fact.

I think in TS1, when Jack groped Ennis, originally it was just something he did in his sleep, but once Ennis woke up, and they looked at one another, it was like, "OK, we've been playing around with each other verbally, come on, lets do the real thing".......

The rest is history................

[Gabreya]

Exactly. At first, it wasn't sexual or anything like that. It was just friendly but you know with time going by with them spending some time together, the physical attraction kicked in.

Oh, and thanks, atz and Artiste, and everyone else.

[belbbmfan]

This is a great topic. 

The thing that came to my mind about Ennis flirting, was his line 'Hell, that's more words than I spoke in a year.'

He was engaged when he met Jack and Jack already knew that at this point. So Ennis was telling Jack 'I like talking to you so much. I've spoken more to you than I've done with other people, including Alma.' And the way he feels comfortable enough to share this with Jack, barring his soul like that. Painful as that revelation might have been (Ennis basically tells Jack about loneliness and not fitting in), it tells Jack a lot, I think.

And the way Ennis looks at Jack after he tells him this, he must have known what message he was sending.


God, I love both of them in that precious scene! *sigh*

[mariez]

God, I love both of them in that precious scene! *sigh*

Oh, me too, Fabienne!  This is a scene I never get tired of watching.  And "the look" never fails to just kill me.  Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words.

[Gabreya]

Oh, me too, Fabienne!  This is a scene I never get tired of watching.  And "the look" never fails to just kill me.  Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words.

Me, three! That was a really emotionally moving yet sweet scene. My heart aches for them.

[belbbmfan]

I think the question 'Did Ennis flirt' is answered in that picture. God, those eyes, that little smile!

Thanks for posting that Marie. 

[optom3]

This is a great topic. 

The thing that came to my mind about Ennis flirting, was his line 'Hell, that's more words than I spoke in a year.'

He was engaged when he met Jack and Jack already knew that at this point. So Ennis was telling Jack 'I like talking to you so much. I've spoken more to you than I've done with other people, including Alma.' And the way he feels comfortable enough to share this with Jack, barring his soul like that. Painful as that revelation might have been (Ennis basically tells Jack about loneliness and not fitting in), it tells Jack a lot, I think.

And the way Ennis looks at Jack after he tells him this, he must have known what message he was sending.


God, I love both of them in that precious scene! *sigh*

I love that scene as well, hell I love the whole movie. I do think it is very revealing that Jack has so successfully managed in a relatively short period of time to draw Ennis out of himself.He is so relaxed in his company, he is actually stringing together whole sentences.From that first solitary word, "Ennis" when Jack says, your folks just stop at Ennis, to actually volunteering added information, what a journey.!!
I still think when Ennis says he hasn't had the opportunity to "sin" yet is  flirting.From a man as closed in as Ennis, to have moved from only volunteering his first name, to telling Jack he hasn't yet sinned is a quantum leap.
I am not sure he realises the depth of his attraction, as he has no benchmark to compare it with.So I still think it is almost subconscious.I do believe though that Jack has made him "feel" the way no one else in his life ever has.
I think he has already fallen in love, and it maybe feels like a punch in the solar plexus to him.He knows that something within him has changed, almost like a seismic shift.Hence the pawing the white out of the moon.He just does not have the life experience to know what is happening.When I first really fell in love, I was in my thirties, and despite thinking I was in love before, and being more worldly than Ennis, it still struck like a thunderbolt.I could no more verbalise it than I could understand it.It just was.In fact it still is.

[Artiste]

Wow optom !

Well said !

If I may say, I  would take that word almost therefore out ?

Since, Ennis was flirting then ?


Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Wow optom !

Well said !

If I may say, I  would take that word almost therefore out ?

Since, Ennis was flirting then ?


Au revoir,
hugs!

I re read my post, had a little think, and have to agree with your suggestion,consider the matter dealt with !!!!!!!

[Gabreya]

 

[Artiste]

And Ennis did flirt often ?

[Brown Eyes]

I think even in the moments when we perceive Ennis to be "flirting"... or revealing his attraction to Jack, he is almost always doing this subconsciously or almost despite himself.  When he's around Jack... early on and through the film... he wears his heart on his sleeve a little bit more than he seems to in other situations.  But, only a little bit.

[mariez]

I think even in the moments when we perceive Ennis to be "flirting"... or revealing his attraction to Jack, he is almost always doing this subconsciously or almost despite himself.  When he's around Jack... early on and through the film... he wears his heart on his sleeve a little bit more than he seems to in other situations.  But, only a little bit.

Yeah, I love the "look", but I have to agree with you, Amanda.  It springs from his heart, but not from his conscious mind.  And I do think that's also true for the other "flirting" moments.   I think he wears his heart on his sleeve a little more simply because he feels so comfortable with Jack.

Marie

[belbbmfan]

I think even in the moments when we perceive Ennis to be "flirting"... or revealing his attraction to Jack, he is almost always doing this subconsciously or almost despite himself.  When he's around Jack... early on and through the film... he wears his heart on his sleeve a little bit more than he seems to in other situations.  But, only a little bit.

I agree about the 'despite himself'. And I like this description, like he really couldn't help himself to reveal that he was talking more to Jack than to anyone else.
It was a done deal, maybe as soon as Jack said 'nice to know you Ennis Del Mar'. 

[mariez]

It was a done deal, maybe as soon as Jack said 'nice to know you Ennis Del Mar'. 

Another favorite moment!  Yep, done deal.

[Artiste]

Isn't that a beautiful pic and time ?

BOTH are flirting ??

[Katie77]

I was reading a Brokback Trivia site yesterday and came accross this......

Director Ang Lee gave Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal copies of the book, "Farm Boys: Lives of Gay Men from the Rural Midwest", by Will Fellows, a book that had been mentioned by both Annie Proulx and Diana Ossana as an excellent reference source, to help them understand their characters. Noting what he learned from his reading, Gyllenhaal said, "I dont't think that these two characters even know what gay is"

[Artiste]

So what does that mean Katie ?

And to you ?

[Artiste]

Merci for your very interesting find Katie !

[LauraGigs]

I was reading a Brokback Trivia site yesterday and came accross this......
Director Ang Lee gave Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal copies of the book, "Farm Boys: Lives of Gay Men from the Rural Midwest", by Will Fellows, a book that had been mentioned by both Annie Proulx and Diana Ossana as an excellent reference source, to help them understand their characters. Noting what he learned from his reading, Gyllenhaal said, "I dont't think that these two characters even know what gay is"

I'd never read or heard that Katie.  Thanks for the info!!  That's all really interesting.

[Artiste]

Doe sthat mean in to-day's term of what gays is and are ?

[lancecowboy]

I was reading a Brokback Trivia site yesterday and came accross this......

Director Ang Lee gave Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal copies of the book, "Farm Boys: Lives of Gay Men from the Rural Midwest", by Will Fellows, a book that had been mentioned by both Annie Proulx and Diana Ossana as an excellent reference source, to help them understand their characters. Noting what he learned from his reading, Gyllenhaal said, "I dont't think that these two characters even know what gay is"

Katie77, Thank You so much for this. I found it and read parts of it in Google books, and it is amazing. Definitely worth owning.

And thank you everyone, for your insights into this question. I never thought about it before, now I understand the tent scene much better, and Jack.

[Gabreya]

Howdy, lancecowboy. Nice to see that you're lovin' this site.

Btw, you guys, I've heard of that trivia thing about that and it's really good. And I agree with Jake on that statement. Back in the sixties, there WASN'T a name for describing same-sex relationships. But, that was an interestingly great piece of trivia for us.

[Katie77]

Howdy, lancecowboy. Nice to see that you're lovin' this site.

Btw, you guys, I've heard of that trivia thing about that and it's really good. And I agree with Jake on that statement. Back in the sixties, there WASN'T a name for describing same-sex relationships. But, that was an interestingly great piece of trivia for us.

The word was homosexual back then in the sixties, as well as many other not so nice names. The word "gay" was not used then except to describe someone who was happy.

One of them Ennis uses in the movie.....I aint queer. And I think he honestly believed that he wasn't.

[KristinDaBomb]

Oh, me too, Fabienne!  This is a scene I never get tired of watching.  And "the look" never fails to just kill me.  Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words.

My heart melts seeing the expression on his face.

[Artiste]

Merci katie, optom, KristinDaBomb, brokeplex, and others !

Like you say Katie, I never heard the word gay in those 60's neither, but homosexual and other words yes !!

Some words were very nasty and still are such as fag.ot which I never nor will accept from anyone from such ingorants or thugs !!

Luckily, I noted that some words were more accepted and acceptable and said by some others who were more loving - such as in the French-canadien culture ! That gave me hope... in order to live my gay life since they were more acceptable as a culture towards gays!!

I never heard in elementary nor in secondary schools nor at universities any bad word against gays, I was lucky!
I never did hear drug words neither! But later on as in the late 60's and the 70's, 80's... unfortunately then and now drug words and anti-gay ones can in as a sport by some!

So gays battled, as I saw that many were getting murdered because they were gay men!

Now laws and attitude have changed that a bit or more... as gay marriages and other rights are passed now ! Still much more needs to be done and enforced in Canada! And in the United States as well in the rest of the World! But danger lies ahead as some RADICAL foreing cultures have arrived and continued to do so which are against gays and life but their own !

It remains that the Brokeback Mountain film can make us all human realise that dangers are there for love and that gay living is worth fighting peacefully and culturally for, I say!

So this flirting among Ennis and Jack, are most important many things for me to continue to live since I am a gay man and that I pray for peace also for all humans!

Au revoir,
hugs!