what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?

[nakymaton]

So the shirts are one of the most powerful images I've ever seen in a story or in a movie. They just destroy me. I love them.

But I keep wondering: what was going through Jack's head when he took Ennis's shirt? Did he figure that he would never see Ennis again, and wanted some part of Ennis to hold onto? Did he just pick the shirt up from the ground after Ennis took it off, first thinking that he would give it back to Ennis when Ennis had settled down, but then the right moment never came, and at some level Jack wanted to keep the shirt?

Or...?

[tiawahcowboy]

He took Ennis's shirt probably for more less the very same reason that Ennis took the shirts from Jack's boyhood makeshift closet. The shirt was a remembrance of their good times up on Brokeback.

Oh, due to the fact that Ennis Del Mar was too poor to own very many clothes, Jack also probably decided to "steal" the shirt because Ennis could not afford to give Jack the shirt off is back. The "blood" on the shirts seems to have the connotation of being "blood brothers."

[opinionista]

So the shirts are one of the most powerful images I've ever seen in a story or in a movie. They just destroy me. I love them.

But I keep wondering: what was going through Jack's head when he took Ennis's shirt? Did he figure that he would never see Ennis again, and wanted some part of Ennis to hold onto? Did he just pick the shirt up from the ground after Ennis took it off, first thinking that he would give it back to Ennis when Ennis had settled down, but then the right moment never came, and at some level Jack wanted to keep the shirt?

Or...?

I guess Jack figured it was unlikely they see each other again or at least have the same relationship they had during that summer. Ennis had already announced he was marrying Alma as soon as he went down from Brokeback Mountain. So after they have the fight, Ennis changed his shirt and probably left somewhere. Jack saw it and took it with the intention of giving it to him, but changed his mind and decided to take it with him as a keepsake. I guess Jack already knew Ennis was the best thing that ever happened to him.

[stubbyeddy]

justed wanted to add, my last 'boyfriend' he stole one of my shirts, i found it later on in his closet. when i asked him why he just didnt ask me for it, he said he was just embarrased to ask. I asked him why he took it, he simply said becaue it was mine and that it smelt of me, we didnt see each other often, only once or twice a year. I didnt press the issue beyond that. well just wanted to add that...

[tiawahcowboy]

From the book:

The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jack's sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he'd thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack's own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

When Jack took the shirts, they did have the smell of the mountain on them. They probably had grass stains all over them, too, since they had been wrestling, as well as the smell of wild sage. Oh, wild sage makes good incense and can be used for spiritual purposes.

[nakymaton]

justed wanted to add, my last 'boyfriend' he stole one of my shirts, i found it later on in his closet. when i asked him why he just didnt ask me for it, he said he was just embarrased to ask. I asked him why he took it, he simply said becaue it was mine and that it smelt of me, we didnt see each other often, only once or twice a year. I didnt press it issue anymore then that. well just wanted to add that...

Thank you, Eddy. You know, since the movie, I've seen lots of guys saying that they either had taken a shirt themselves, or had a boyfriend take theirs. (And each of the stories really gets me, every time, no matter how many times I hear them.) I guess I've exchanged shirts (well, his shirt; my over-sized sweater) with a guy when we were separated by an ocean, and I remember how emotional I got when I smelled him on his shirt. But he had to mail the shirt to me, and I had to mail the sweater to him. I don't think it would have ever occurred to me to simply take something he had worn.

There's something kind of sad and poignant about just taking the shirt rather than asking for it (or offering a shirt in exchange). I'm not sure I understand quite why I feel that way.

(And, yes, the scent of wild sage really is one of the saddest and most beautiful smells around. I can get misty-eyed at the smell of pines, or the sea, but sage tops them all.)

[Meryl]

I think after the punch, Jack's hopes of keeping in touch with Ennis after the summer were considerably dimmed.  When he had the chance, he took the shirt, knowing he could at least have a little bit of Ennis left to comfort him.  Just seeing those shirts in his closet over the years (and being unable to throw them out) might have been the reason Jack finally got up the nerve to contact Ennis again.

When my dad died, I took one of his shirts and hung it inside my closet door, just like Ennis does in his trailer.  Now that my mom is gone, a few of her clothes hang next to it in my closet to this day.  There's something comforting about having the clothes they wore when you were with them, when you could still hug them.

[tiawahcowboy]

(And, yes, the scent of wild sage really is one of the saddest and most beautiful smells around. I can get misty-eyed at the smell of pines, or the sea, but sage tops them all.)

I see nothing sad about the smell of wild sage in its fresh or dried versions; nor do I feel sad when I burn it in a Native American ritual. The rising smoke reminds me of sending prayers up to the Creator Spirit and the smoke permeating the room makes me think of His Spirit surrounding me.

I have been in sweat lodge ceremonies where sage, tobacco and cedar was used and dropped on the glowing "grandfathers" (the translated name for the rocks heated until red hot) in the fire pit.

[pinku]

What else did he have? That was the only tangible object that he had had to remember his darling, Jack! Looks like the shirts were enough for Ennis to spend his life remembering those unaffected/uncomplicated days at Brokeback, note the postcard  pasted/pinned near the shirts! I mean he did not even have the dubious comfort of going to Jack's grave!Beautifully enacted on the screen!   

[RouxB]

When I was in college I frequently wore my boyfriends clothes-they smelled of him and reminded me of him everyday (and he loved seeing me in his things-especially his bathrobe-go figure). There was a particular sweater that I kept as mine but when riding my bike home from class one day it fell from around my waist and I lost it. I looked for that damn sweater for days! I saw my loss of it as a premonition of my loss of him. I was completely heart broken when I was unable to find it.

I think we do equate personal items-particularly clothing-with the essence of loved ones. When I graduated and was about to move back home, I went to see this, now ex, boyfriend to return a jacket of his. He was sad to get it back and he admitted that as long as I had it, he had a reason to stay connected to me.

 

[tiawahcowboy]

While Jack Twist HID Ennis Del Mar's "Bloody Brokeback Mountain" shirt inside of his own "Bloody Brokeback" shirt on a nail that was in a HIDING jog in his cretonne fabric "makeshift" boyhood closet at Lightning Flat, Annie Proulx did not have her Ennis hang the shirts in any closet. From the way that I read the story, the "like two skins" shirts were not actually on a hanger, they were just hanging together from a nail in the jog in the north end of the makeshift closet.

After Ennis got the Brokeback Mountain postcard which Linda Higgins ordered for him, he used 4 brasshead tacks to pin the postcard to the wall of his trailer and under the postcard, he drove a nail. Ennis put the shirts on a wire hanger (the cheap kind you get from the drycleaners) and hung the hanger with the shirts on the nail on the trailer's wall. Ennis did not hide the shirts!  And, after everything was the way he wanted them, he said, "Jack, I swear -- "  . . . , though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.

Why the movie folks had Ennis hide the shirts in a closet, hanging them on the back of its door, makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Mikaela]

I suppose the operating words are "in the closet".  It's an extremely expressive image, symbolic of all of Ennis's life.


Why Jack took the shirt - my take on that is he wanted something to remember Ennis by, fearing with good reason that Ennis would act just the way he later actually does, when they get down to Signal. Ennis's behaviour from Jack said the "bring them down" line must have driven home to Jack that in Ennis's mind, their one shot thing is definitely about to end. And so he just *may* never see Ennis-who's-getting-married ever again.

And also, Jack is so careful of being openly emotional - at spooking Ennis with emotions, - at initiating any kind of personal and intimate talk touching on their relationship;  - he always waits till Ennis says something or he keeps silent. (For instance....the way Jack silently waits in the scene where Ennis *finally* opens his mouth to say "this is a one shot thing...."  just *kills* me!) So I can't see Jack actually *asking* for the shirt or anything else as a remembrance. That would probably cross Ennis's line to seeming queer; -crossing the boundary to the "touchy-feely" stuff that Ennis would consider outside the limits of their one shot thing on the mountan. Plus, I think Jack wouldn't or couldn't take the risk that Ennis might refuse him anything to remember him by. For he did want something, no matter what Ennis might thiink about it, so when an opportunity presented itself, he went for it.

[Penthesilea]

Ennis's behaviour from Jack said the "bring them down" line must have driven home to Jack that in Ennis's mind, their one shot thing is definitely about to end. And so he just *may* never see Ennis-who's-getting-married ever again.

So I can't see Jack actually *asking* for the shirt or anything else as a remembrance. That would probably cross Ennis's line to seeming queer; -crossing the boundary to the "touchy-feely" stuff that Ennis would consider outside the limits of their one shot thing on the mountan. Plus, I think Jack wouldn't or couldn't take the risk that Ennis might refuse him anything to remember him by. For he did want something, no matter what Ennis might thiink about it, so when an opportunity presented itself, he went for it.

I think Mikaela's explanation is very good and covers all aspects of this question.


And yes, I took a sweatshirt from my then BF (and now husband), too. I "lend" it and never gave it back. Ahhh, it's precious to have a piece of clothing with the scent of your loved one in it.  Especially when you're apart.

It's so sweet from Jack. Gotta love him for taking and keeping the shirt, doncha?

[silkncense]

I think after the punch, Jack's hopes of keeping in touch with Ennis after the summer were considerably dimmed.  When he had the chance, he took the shirt, knowing he could at least have a little bit of Ennis left to comfort him.  Just seeing those shirts in his closet over the years (and being unable to throw them out) might have been the reason Jack finally got up the nerve to contact Ennis again.

I tend to agree with this interpretation, Meryl.

Ennis's behaviour from Jack said the "bring them down" line must have driven home to Jack that in Ennis's mind, their one shot thing is definitely about to end. And so he just *may* never see Ennis-who's-getting-married ever again.

I think Ennis' behavior after the "bring 'em down" line actually showed the opposite.  I felt Ennis was clearly showing his pain and loss mixed w/ a "I don't know what is going on" feeling.  He got angry, frustrated, he moped, he went off by himself - possibly to avoid having to confront his feelings. 

And when it was time to ACTUALLY go - he lost control of his feelings & struck out - as we saw him do a number of other times in the film.   After this point, Jack determined that there may not be a future with them together in some way and he took the shirt.

And, I still have a personal issue that Ennis didn't have any "touchy feely" stuff with Jack & did not acknowledge his feelings.  The flashback shows Ennis being incredibly tender & loving towards Jack & was in no way sexual or a prelude to a sexula encounter.  Also, later, the hotel scene where he is stroking & caressing Jack's arm and even the last tent scene where Ennis has his arm around Jack as they sleep. 

[Mikaela]

I think Ennis' behavior after the "bring 'em down" line actually showed the opposite.

Just to clarify, I was thinking of Ennis's behaviour from that line was spoken and all the while till Jack took the shirt - which would encompass Ennis's punch and the nosebleed. (It's sometimes a struggle for me to be precise enough in the wording of posts....) I think Jack senses strong pain, loss, panic and desperation in Ennis; - and sees all those as Ennis's (mostly non-verbal)  reactions to their time together being over. The very strength of those reactions indicating to jack that in Ennis's mind, it is *really* over.

I still have a personal issue that Ennis didn't have any "touchy feely" stuff with Jack & did not acknowledge his feelings.

 
Ennis *had* strong feelings by the truckload. But in my view, he showed them through actions, not through spoken words. He's holding on to Jack for dear life in the motel room scene, but when Jack asks "What about you" - Ennis can only manage to mumble "I don't know". Ennis can't manage to verbalize all that he's feeling. Even on one of those few occasions where he does speak his feelings (- sending up the prayer of thanks -) he turns it into a spoken joke right away instead of being earnest about it; - nevertheless conveying his *actual* feelings through his expression if not through words.

Jack actually asking for the shirt or some remembrance outright, even explaining the reason why he wanted it, would bring the emotional stuff out into the open between them in spoken words - something I do believe Jack would know or sense that Ennis for various reasons would be uncomfortable with.

[opinionista]

Just seeing those shirts in his closet over the years (and being unable to throw them out) might have been the reason Jack finally got up the nerve to contact Ennis again.

I think Jack sort of swore to himself he was going to find Ennis again one way or another. He goes back to Aguirre a year afterwards pretending to look for work when he was actually looking for Ennis. And I bet at the rodeos and later at his job as a farm machinery salesman, he didn't hesistate to ask, especially among the folks from Wyoming, if someone knew Ennis del Mar by a chance.

However, I think it's odd they don't exchange addresses when they part ways. But I guess Ennis wanted to avoid any temptation, and Jack didn't want to be punched in the face again.

[nakymaton]

But I guess Ennis wanted to avoid any temptation

It's really telling that the camera focuses on Ennis (and we first hear his voice clearly) in the "...lead us not into temptation..." part of the Lord's Prayer, isn't it?

Interesting answers, everyone. I can't decide whether Jack thought he would never see Ennis again after the punch, or whether he still held out hope that Ennis would come back the next summer (until their conversation by the truck? until Ennis wasn't at Aguirre's trailer the next summer?). Was Jack taking the shirt to remember Ennis by forever (like keeping the clothing of a deceased love one... like the way Ennis keeps the shirts in the end), or was he taking the shirt to keep the memories fresh through the winter (like Eddy's boyfriend, maybe?), or as a sort of token of unspoken commitment (which, I guess, was what my boyfriend and I were doing with our exchanged clothing... certainly when we returned them, we were saying the relationship was over for good)?

Interesting point about Jack asking about Ennis, opinionista. I've wondered how Jack knew to send that postcard to Riverton.

(And Mikaela, I think you're right, that asking for a shirt would have forced Ennis to admit too much to himself. I guess the expression "touchy-feely" doesn't quite work in that context, because the touching and feeling were actually the things that Ennis was comfortable doing. But all the symbolic stuff, from saying "I love you" out loud to openly exchanging clothing... yeah, that's not the Ennis I see on the screen. And I guess I asked because I, personally, would have left with nothing rather than take a shirt. But then my personality is more like Ennis than Jack.)

Another question: when do you all think that Jack layered Ennis's shirt inside his own? Right away, up there on the mountain? Some time during that winter in Lightning Flat? After the reunion? After one of the other "fishing trips"?

[opinionista]

Interesting point about Jack asking about Ennis, opinionista. I've wondered how Jack knew to send that postcard to Riverton.

Well, in the postcard Jack writes:

"Friend, this letter is a long time over due. Hope you get it. Heard you was in Riverton. I'm coming thru on the 24th, thought I'd stop and buy you a beer. Drop me a line if you can, say if your there". (This is from the short story).

So I reckon, he heard Ennis was in Riverton because he asked around. Why would anyone mention Ennis out of the blue when he wasn't famous, or rich or anything? Just a ranch hand, like many others.

Another question: when do you all think that Jack layered Ennis's shirt inside his own? Right away, up there on the mountain? Some time during that winter in Lightning Flat? After the reunion? After one of the other "fishing trips"?

I picture Jack layering Ennis's shirt inside his the very same day he was back in Lightning Flat. I started to write a fan fiction about it, but I haven't finished it and don't think I will. I'm a writer but I write in Spanish, I don't think my English is good enough for that.

[Mikaela]

And I bet at the rodeos and later at his job as a farm machinery salesman, he didn't hesistate to ask, especially among the folks from Wyoming, if someone knew Ennis del Mar by a chance.

I really think this explanation makes a lot of sense.  I've been wondering about how Jack happened to "hear" that Ennis was in Riverton, too.

When they parted ways in 1963, I suppose the only address Ennis would have had to give out would be his married brother's.....sounds like that from his story on how he ended up herding sheep on the mountain,  And after he and Alma got married, they had moved a couple of times already between "lonesome old ranches" before they ended up above the laundromat. Ennis can't have been easy to track down.

Jack must have been so elated when he actually, eventually, got a lead on Ennis's whereabouts!



Mel, totally OT but still; - I though touchy-feely was just another way of saying "emotional" - that those were directly interchangable expressions? I take it it's not, then - that it's actually used in the literal sense? Seems BBM is about to improve my english knowledge once more!

[nakymaton]

Mel, totally OT but still; - I though touchy-feely was just another way of saying "emotional" - that those were directly interchangable expressions? I take it it's not, then - that it's actually used in the literal sense? Seems BBM is about to improve my english knowledge once more!

No, you're right, it is used just to mean "emotional," usually in a negative sense. But I guess you could read it literally, as well -- it kind of evokes an image of a caress, I guess.

opinionista -- yeah, I guess that's the only way that Jack could have heard that Ennis was in Riverton. I guess I'm surprised that even guys on the rodeo circuit would have known Ennis -- he's such a quiet, try-to-fade-into-the-background kind of guy. (And would Ennis have gone anywhere near a rodeo during those four years? I'd imagine him getting a bad case of the shakes just seeing a flyer advertising one -- that Ennis would lie awake wondering if Jack was going to be there and trying not to think about him, and that Ennis would avoid even looking at the flyers in fear that somebody would know, and I'd better stop because I'm getting a little too close to fanfic myself here.) I guess that there might have been guys who worked on a ranch in the area, met Ennis, and then joined the rodeo circuit.

It's a big world. Jack's lucky that he ever managed to track Ennis down, I guess.

[Mikaela]

Jack was lucky in that Ennis was called the relatively distinct Ennis del Mar and didn't have a more John Doe'ish type of name too, I supppose. That would have limited Jack's chances even further of someone remembering and connecting the name and the person when Jack asked around....

[tiawahcowboy]

I think Jack sort of swore to himself he was going to find Ennis again one way or another. He goes back to Aguirre a year afterwards pretending to look for work when he was actually looking for Ennis. And I bet at the rodeos and later at his job as a farm machinery salesman, he didn't hesistate to ask, especially among the folks from Wyoming, if someone knew Ennis del Mar by a chance.

However, I think it's odd they don't exchange addresses when they part ways. But I guess Ennis wanted to avoid any temptation, and Jack didn't want to be punched in the face again.

The movie made it look like Jack Twist went back to Aguirre's trailer office the next year under pretense of looking for work; when he was inquiring about Ennis Del Mar.

But, Annie Proulx actually had Jack going back to see if work was available and he never mentioned Ennis Del Mar. (Since Annie Proulx's story is fiction, we really don't have to use the "argument from silence" excuse here as one might use when talking about real live human beings.)

Besides, according to Annie Proulx, K. E. Del Mar, Ennis's brother, lived in Signal, Wyoming. That's probably how Jack found out that Ennis had moved to Riverton and why he decided to send a postcard to him general delivery there.  

Annie Proulx's Jack Twist did not work for the farm machinery company until long after Alma divorced Ennis, after Ennis had Thanksgiving dinner at Alma and the grocers' with the girls, and after Lureen's father died.

Added note: In 1963, the only married sibling of Ennis Del Mar who was mentioned in the book was his sister.

[nakymaton]

Jack was lucky in that Ennis was called the relatively distinct Ennis del Mar and didn't have a more John Doe'ish type of name too, I supppose.

Do you think "Ennis" was an unusual enough name that Ennis never bothered telling anyone his last name, until Jack asked for it?

(I suddenly had an image of Jack hanging out with some guys from Wyoming after a rodeo, swapping some kind of exaggerated tales from childhood, and then suddenly saying, "Hey, you know a guy named Ennis del Mar? I got this shirt a his, been meanin to get it back to him one a these days." But, you know? Not realistic at all. )

[Mikaela]

Or:

""Hey, you know a guy named Ennis del Mar? I got something belongin' to him, been meanin to get it back to him one a these days."


Then we could have argued back and forth on whether Jack was talking of his heart, the shirt, both, or something else entirely. 


Concerning the name, perhaps someone once taunted Ennis about del Mar being a pansy kind of name. Ennis being Ennis, he would have worried over that after he punched the someone's lights out. Could be the reason he just tells Jack he's Ennis. Wouldn't want to give the man the wrong impression from the very first, you know.

[tiawahcowboy]

Do you think "Ennis" was an unusual enough name that Ennis never bothered telling anyone his last name, until Jack asked for it?

(I suddenly had an image of Jack hanging out with some guys from Wyoming after a rodeo, swapping some kind of exaggerated tales from childhood, and then suddenly saying, "Hey, you know a guy named Ennis del Mar? I got this shirt a his, been meanin to get it back to him one a these days." But, you know? Not realistic at all. )

I have never met a guy whose first name was Ennis; but, I know several people with the surname of Ennis. I know people have the last name of Del Mar and I have been friends with more than one person named "Delmar."

[opinionista]

I have never met a guy whose first name was Ennis; but, I know several people with the surname of Ennis. I know people have the last name of Del Mar and I have been friends with more than one person named "Delmar."

It's funny because in Spanish Del Mar is a girl's name. It's usually a middle name, as in Maria del Mar.

[tiawahcowboy]

It's funny because in Spanish Del Mar is a girl's name. It's usually a middle name, as in Maria del Mar.

Yep, an' thar's a whole passel of Hispanic men who have "Maria" as first name. John Wayne's and Pat Robertson's legal first names? Marion. I used to know a woman whose first name was spelled "Marion."

In my life, I have known men named, Sharon, Shirley, and Sherrill.  Sharon Parks was a great big country boy and nobody fun of his name. Shirley Rogers McKenzie preferred to be called "Roger;" his mother name him after a male Cherokee relative whose full name was "Shirley Rogers." Sherrill Booker told people to just call him "Booker."

[Meryl]

My mom's name was Marion.  

It seems more likely to me that Jack may have tracked Ennis by asking about him when he was actually in Wyoming himself.  He would have driven up through the state to see his parents from time to time anyway and could have asked at diners or gas stations, or he could have asked other ranch hands from the Lightning Flat area if they'd done jobs with him.

When I first saw the movie, I thought it was hardly credible that Jack and Ennis would have parted without exchanging addresses, but actually neither of them had an address to offer.  Jack knew Ennis could look him up through his parents in Lightning Flat, and that was about it.  But even if they'd had addresses to exchange, Ennis was in such denial about what Jack really meant to him that I think he really thought he'd be able to go back to his life with Alma without a huge adjustment.  He'd feel safer, too, if Jack couldn't write him a letter or show up on his doorstep, no matter how welcome he might be.  After all, Jack had been his lover, and Ennis didn't dare let the world have a chance to figure that out.  He couldn't fix it, so he'd just have to stand it.  Four years of marital disillusionment and diaper changing made him a lot more receptive to the idea, though. 

[tiawahcowboy]

Riverton, in Fremont County, is more or less in the Middle of Wyoming (slightly to the West, somewhat); but, Lightning Flat, where Jack is from, is in the extreme NE corner of the state in Crook Country. (Lightning Flat used to have a post office and it was in NW Crook County a the Wyoming-Montana state line.)

Jack probably went through Denver on his way up to his folks from Childress, Texas. The US Highway between Denver and almost Crook county is # 85. By taking that route, he still wouldn't get within 180+ miles of Riverton.

So, since the book Ennis told Jack that his brother, K. E., lived in Signal when both of the guys worked together in 1963, I say that Jack might have known where Ennis's brother lived and contacted him. And, it might have been possible that K. E. told or wrote Jack that Ennis had moved to Riverton but he did not have his address.

While we, as observers, can say "Jack was Ennis's lover," Ennis himself would never admit to that. He could only think of Jack as a buddy and nothing more than that. (Oh, ramblin' here . . . I would say that the reason the Movie Ennis said that Jack was his fishin' buddy to Alma was that Ennis did go fishing before Jack showed up in 1964, or he had already planned to do that.)

Oh, by the book again, Ennis had not been married to Alma 4 years yet when Jack showed up. It was more like 3 1/2 years.

[vkm91941]

Scent is tied very closely with memory for some of us.  I cannot smell my Mother's perfume without a tear or two and my oldest son has taken to wearing the same aftershave his late father wore and ahhh the memories that evokes.

Ennis is the same way.  It is most clear in the story where he is always talking about the scents around him.  In the film, for me, it is most evident in the scene where he first finds the shirts and buries his face in them as he embraces them and sighs.  Then again later after Junior leaves at the end and he discovers her forgotten sweater, he tenderly carresses it, smells and kisses it before placing it in his closet...so poignant, and devestating when combined with, the gentle ministration to the now reversed shirts and  "Jack, I swear" <sigh>

[silkncense]

In my life, I have known men named, Sharon, Shirley, and Sherrill.  Sharon Parks was a great big country boy and nobody fun of his name. Shirley Rogers McKenzie preferred to be called "Roger;" his mother name him after a male Cherokee relative whose full name was "Shirley Rogers." Sherrill Booker told people to just call him "Booker."

Tiawahcowboy (TJ, Joe Allen Doty) -

This was also posted under either TJ or Joe Allen Doty - just for curiosity, why do you keep changing your board name???  What's the point?  Did you already answer this elsewhere? 

[tiawahcowboy]

Tiawahcowboy (TJ, Joe Allen Doty) -

This was also posted under either TJ or Joe Allen Doty - just for curiosity, why do you keep changing your board name???  What's the point?  Did you already answer this elsewhere? 

Answer what elswhere?

Whom are you talking about?  Who is "TJ? "Joe Allen Doty?" In regard to the latter, I heard that he has relatives in Tiawah. I do have a membership in one of his Yahoo Groups about cowboys.

Look at my signature line and see whose name is in it.

[silkncense]

tiawahcowboy
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      Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2006, 06:21:29 pm »   

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Quote from: opinionista on May 28, 2006, 06:08:13 pm
It's funny because in Spanish Del Mar is a girl's name. It's usually a middle name, as in Maria del Mar.


Yep, an' thar's a whole passel of Hispanic men who have "Maria" as first name. John Wayne's and Pat Robertson's legal first names? Marion. I used to know a woman whose first name was spelled "Marion."

In my life, I have known men named, Sharon, Shirley, and Sherrill.  Sharon Parks was a great big country boy and nobody fun of his name. Shirley Rogers McKenzie preferred to be called "Roger;" his mother name him after a male Cherokee relative whose full name was "Shirley Rogers." Sherrill Booker told people to just call him "Booker

OK - I'll play along.  I know that there are many of you with better memories than mine.  Anyone else recall the EXACT same last paragraph being posted by "TJ" or :Joe Allen Doty?"

Either that, or I am hallucinating (again).

[starboardlight]

to me, I don't think it was so much the shirt, but rather it was the blood that Jack took with him. This is all from the movie, so the interpretation for those who prefer the prose would be different. I can't help placing great emphasis on Movie Jack's colors. After coming down the mountain, Jack wear various blood colors, burgandy, crimson, purple, even black. It's a significant color shift from his usual blue. Just as Movie Ennis don blues on his clothes to remind himself of Jack, Jack incorporate blood colors into his clothing indicates that he's always thinking of Ennis.

[Meryl]

Starboard, I like the direction you're going.  

I saw a similar observation on one of Casey's threads a while back, and I really like the idea that Jack's wearing red is his way of recalling his love for Ennis.   I've begun to think that the use of red throughout the film is always well thought out by the designers and Ang Lee.  It's a bit off topic for this thread, but I'll share a post with you that I just made the other day on TOB in response to Casey's observing that all the scenes following the flashback to the dozy embrace have a heightened, hallucinatory feeling:

I'm sure others have pointed out that Ennis wears the same grey overshirt in all these scenes, grey being the muted form of Jack's signature blue and also suggestive of Ennis's depressed frame of mind. The shirt has an interesting red detail right over the heart like a symbolic wound. In the same way, each of the four last scenes has a neutral blue-grey palette punctuated by bits of red.

At the bus station red is seen on a truck parked outside, on the Coke machine, the Greyhound logo and around the rim of Ennis's plate and cup. When Ennis gets the postcard, there is red on the post office itself, the flag, the "Deceased" stamp, Ennis's shirt collar and Lureen's nails and lips, and in the vision of the murder there is red on one of the thugs' jackets and red blood on Jack's face. At the ranch, Jack's father has a red belt, Jack's mother's dress has a small red detail in its print and her hair has a reddish tint; then there is the cherry cake, patches of red on Jack's bedspread and clothing and the dark red of the bloodstained shirts. In the final scene red appears on the mailbox flag, a parked truck, Junior's car, her belt, Ennis's bedspread and the cup he gives her.

Although red symbolizes blood, it also recalls passion, and it brightens up the dull colors of each scene like Ennis and Jack's love brightened up their otherwise colorless lives. It's interesting that the only character in those four scenes who doesn't have a red detail is Cassie. Ennis had a strong emotional feeling for all the others, but poor Cassie had to remain neutral.

The dreamlike quality of these scenes is heightened subtly, I think, by the red dropped onto the otherwise neutral grey palette. It does remind me of how we recall incidents in our lives--a kind of general impression punctuated by more vivid moments. If, as you said, Ang Lee was trying to give us the feeling of being inside Ennis's memory, this may have been one of the ways he chose to do it.

The rest of the discussion can be found here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/41997532?d=44380715#44380715

[nakymaton]

Meryl, you have such an amazing visual memory and ability to notice details.  I keep trying to see things like the yin/yang in the barn door outside Jack's room, but every time I watch that part of the movie I find that I can't look at anything but Ennis's face. (I mean, I've never even seen Jack's rock collection. And you know how much that means! )

starboardlight -- yeah, the blood is really important, isn't it? (I did read one of Casey Cornelius's threads on TOB after Meryl pointed me to it, and I think I remember a bunch of people going into really impressive detail about the symbolism of the blood.) The blood reminds me of the entire scene, of how the blood got on both shirts. Of flirting gone sour. Of Jack trying to take care of Ennis, and Ennis lashing out, pushing Jack away.  There's just so much love and pain and regret wrapped up in the shirts.

There's an odd detail in the published screenplay... Ennis's shirt, the one with the blood on it, is described as being denim. So it wasn't the screenwriters who envisioned the color scheme. It's interesting... I don't know when the published screenplay was locked in, and I know there are a lot of details that are different. But the colors associated with the two characters seem so symbolic -- I can't imagine Ennis wearing a denim shirt, unless he wanted specifically to be reminded of Jack on the mountain.

There's a little cranky corner of me that says, "yeah, the colors are really symbolic, but you know, Jake looks really really good in dark blue/red/purple/black, and Heath looks really really good in muted colors." But then I listen to people who do the symbolism thing really well and I tell the cranky corner of me to shut up, because the stuff you all are saying is just so cool.

[silkncense]

I apologize in advance for the intrusion into the topic at hand.  However, I was asking a simply question of tiawahcowboy & expected just a straight forward response -

tiawahcowboy
Sr. Ranch Hand

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Hay, Dempsey Coker's m' handle.


      Re: Hats off to Roberta Maxwell (Mrs. Twist)
« Reply #17 on: Today at 01:18:24 pm »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: TJ on May 15, 2006, 12:51:39 am
julie01, after I posted a response to your message, I looked at your BetterMost Profile.

I did not know that you were so much older than me.

The 16 year old "guy" actually has a woman's name "ednakrabapley" in his email address. I have never met a guy named "Edna" (that's my older sister's name); but, I have had friends whose first names were Sherrill, Shirley and Sharon.

Sherrill's last name was "Booker' and he prefered to be called by his last name. Shirley's Middle name was "Rogers;" he had been named after a male Cherokee relative "Shirley Rogers," he preferred to be called "Roger."

Now the Sharon guy was a big fellow and nobody made fun of his name.

Well, whadda ya know? Just did a search and saw the above.  All them there guys did live in the same county, Rogers, as I do. Ain't seen any of them in at least 40 years. Both Sharon and Roger went to the same high school up at Chelsea. Chelsea is North of Claremore, the county seat, and Tiawah is down Claremore.

As Alma said, "Don't try an fool me no more."

[tiawahcowboy]

I apologize in advance for the intrusion into the topic at hand.  However, I was asking a simply question of tiawahcowboy & expected just a straight forward response -


As Alma said, "Don't try an fool me no more."

Why did you have to make an issue of something so trivial and off-topic in the first place? You can delete your off-topic postings, didn't you know?

[starboardlight]

There's a little cranky corner of me that says, "yeah, the colors are really symbolic, but you know, Jake looks really really good in dark blue/red/purple/black, and Heath looks really really good in muted colors." But then I listen to people who do the symbolism thing really well and I tell the cranky corner of me to shut up, because the stuff you all are saying is just so cool.

the counter argument is that Jake looks really good in anything and in nothing. 

[nakymaton]

the counter argument is that Jake looks really good in anything and in nothing. 

   

Yup, that argument will win every time.

[Brown Eyes]

I think after the punch, Jack's hopes of keeping in touch with Ennis after the summer were considerably dimmed.  When he had the chance, he took the shirt, knowing he could at least have a little bit of Ennis left to comfort him.  Just seeing those shirts in his closet over the years (and being unable to throw them out) might have been the reason Jack finally got up the nerve to contact Ennis again.

When my dad died, I took one of his shirts and hung it inside my closet door, just like Ennis does in his trailer.  Now that my mom is gone, a few of her clothes hang next to it in my closet to this day.  There's something comforting about having the clothes they wore when you were with them, when you could still hug them.

Meryl, I just wanted to say I think this is a really touching post. 

I think Jack was a very sentimental guy.  He seems to really cherish the sweet aspects of their relationship like the flashback hug and kisses and cuddling.  I'm not at all surprised that he would want something tangible to remind him of Ennis.  I like the idea that he wanted Ennis's shirt not just for the shirt itself but also for the blood.  The idea of "blood brothers" makes good sense here too (even though it's only Ennis's blood).  This seems to be the really important shirt too.  Am I correct in remembering that this is the shirt from the first tent scene?  it's definitely the shirt for the second tent scene.  So, when it's linked up with Jack's own blue shirt it becomes a reminder of their first few encounters as lovers.

[Brown Eyes]

I'm posting again to correct one of my observations in the previous post.  It turns out that Ennis is wearing his shirt with the broad blue and brown intersecting stripes in the first tent scene and not the shirt that Jack hides in his closet.  But, he is definitely wearing the shirt in the second tent scene... and this seems to be the shirt that Jack is washing whilst naked.  So, this must mean that Ennis came down from the day with the sheep, after his hillside chat with Jack and changed his shirt before the second tent scene.
 

[richardg49]

Just to add to what you said, atz. In the scene immediately after the second tent scene, there's a brief shot of the two guys horseplaying outside the tent the next morning (This scene is the one which is observed by Aguirre with his binoculars). Both are shirtless, but their playfighting has its focus on a shirt which one of them (Ennis?) grabs from the other, and then runs away with it, ie he is playfully 'stealing' it.  Isn't this the same shirt that ends up in Jack's and then Ennis's closet? It seems to be the first 'prefiguring' of the motif of stealing shirts in the film. Could someone who has a dvd or video have a look at this to confirm the details, please?

[nakymaton]

Just to add to what you said, atz. In the scene immediately after the second tent scene, there's a brief shot of the two guys horseplaying outside the tent the next morning (This scene is the one which is observed by Aguirre with his binoculars). Both are shirtless, but their playfighting has its focus on a shirt which one of them (Ennis?) grabs from the other, and then runs away with it, ie he is playfully 'stealing' it.  Isn't this the same shirt that ends up in Jack's and then Ennis's closet? It seems to be the first 'prefiguring' of the motif of stealing shirts in the film. Could someone who has a dvd or video have a look at this to confirm the details, please?

 

I think you're right -- it is Ennis's paler shirt, the one that Jack ends up taking. At least, I think it is -- it's too blurry to make the pattern out for sure. (Why didn't Aguirre focus those binoculars better, huh? )

(Click on the attachment to make it bigger. Not much bigger, alas... I'm not good enough with zooming to make a perfect screencap. Of course, the biggest challenge to capping anything from that scene is my imperfect rewind... somehow it kept going back to the 2nd tent scene. )

[serious crayons]

I am jumping into this thread way late  . There are so many interesting observations here! I'll add a couple I don't remember seeing already:

Sometimes I start to think (*putting on hardhat*) that Jack wasn't really all that committed to Ennis after that first summer. I have said, in debates about Jack's behavior in the last scene on the mountain, that I don't think he seems as upset as Ennis about the summer ending. And when Jack drives off watching Ennis in his rearview mirror he looks merely wistful, whereas Ennis in the alley is heartbroken and torn apart. After they part, Jack goes on to consider other men (well, one man anyway: Jimbo), seemingly open to the idea of a future with someone else, whereas Ennis goes haplessly along with the plans to which he's already committed, but for four years misses Jack constantly.

So, as I said, sometimes I start to think this way. Then I remember the shirts. And they change everything. They're undeniable evidence that Jack knew, even as they were leaving the mountain, how much Ennis would always mean to him, no matter what the future held.

Also, from a storytelling perspective, those shirts are just about the most powerful metaphor I've ever seen in fiction or film: the one enclosing the other, their location in a closet, the shared blood, the 20-year existence, the belated discovery .... 

 

I'm sure others have pointed out that Ennis wears the same grey overshirt in all these scenes, grey being the muted form of Jack's signature blue and also suggestive of Ennis's depressed frame of mind. The shirt has an interesting red detail right over the heart like a symbolic wound. In the same way, each of the four last scenes has a neutral blue-grey palette punctuated by bits of red.

Here's another odd thing someone somewhere mentioned recently: the gray overshirt that Ennis wears in all of the last few scenes is very similar to the jacket his dad wears in the Earl flashback. Might be a coincidence. I certainly don't think it's an attempt to associate Ennis' viewpoint with his dad's. But maybe the jacket just sort of generally signals death and tragedy.

[belbbmfan]

There's an odd detail in the published screenplay... Ennis's shirt, the one with the blood on it, is described as being denim. So it wasn't the screenwriters who envisioned the color scheme. It's interesting... I don't know when the published screenplay was locked in, and I know there are a lot of details that are different. But the colors associated with the two characters seem so symbolic -- I can't imagine Ennis wearing a denim shirt, unless he wanted specifically to be reminded of Jack on the mountain.

this is from a post by Casey Cornelius over on imdb:'Diane Ossana has stated that she, Ang Lee and the designers consulted and used images from Richard Avedon's famous volume of portraits "In the American West" for the 'look' of the film.

Here is the portrait of Montana ranch-hand, Richard Wheatcroft, astonishing evidence that he was obviously the prototype for the look of Heath Ledger's Ennis, right down to the pattern in his shirt.

http://www.temple.edu/photo/photographers/avedon/avedon6.html

two portraits on the page, scroll down to see Wheatcroft.'

And another poster (Robert Plant) pointed out that the photo of the bartender Carol Crittendon reminded him of Cassie (strapless t-shirt, necklace, hair are very similar)

http://www.temple.edu/photo/photographers/avedon/avedon.html

I love that, during their time apart, the other's signature color appears is present in their life in shirts (the shirt Ennis wears writing to Jack 'You bet' is brown and blue) and cars. Such wonderful, touching symbolism.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

A relative with a lot of children told me recently when her husband dies the first thing she is going to do is change the locks. People want momentos, and in Ennis's case this would be his only chance to get something that had belonged to Jack, and since it was both their shirts, we'll of course, he was heir to that combination. It belonged to him more than it did the Twist's.

[nakymaton]

Sometimes I start to think (*putting on hardhat*) that Jack wasn't really all that committed to Ennis after that first summer. I have said, in debates about Jack's behavior in the last scene on the mountain, that I don't think he seems as upset as Ennis about the summer ending. And when Jack drives off watching Ennis in his rearview mirror he looks merely wistful, whereas Ennis in the alley is heartbroken and torn apart. After they part, Jack goes on to consider other men (well, one man anyway: Jimbo), seemingly open to the idea of a future with someone else, whereas Ennis goes haplessly along with the plans to which he's already committed, but for four years misses Jack constantly.

So, as I said, sometimes I start to think this way. Then I remember the shirts. And they change everything. They're undeniable evidence that Jack knew, even as they were leaving the mountain, how much Ennis would always mean to him, no matter what the future held.

I actually go back and forth between these two viewpoints. In thinking more about this, there are two different actions that Jack did: he took Ennis's shirt in the first place, and then he layered the two shirts together (the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one). And though Jack's taking the shirt in the first place is significant, it's the way they are put together and hidden there that's so devastating. So I end up going back to the question of when Jack put the shirts together.

Part of me (a big part) thinks he didn't do put the shirts together until after the reunion. During Jack's time rodeoing, he seems to be trying to get over Ennis -- going to Texas (so far away), trying to pick up Jimbo, marrying Lureen. Would Jack have waited four years to send a postcard if he already knew that he wasn't ever going to really get over Ennis?

After the reunion, Jack knows how powerful the relationship is. That kiss on the landing... but then having his suggestion of ranching together turned down... but then Ennis's comment that "there ain't no reins on this one." All those conflicts and contradictions -- there's a part of me that thinks that it's those things, and not the joyous fling on the mountain, that Jack's dealing with when he puts the shirts together.

But then again... there's Jack's memory of the dozy embrace. And there's that year (well, nine months or so) when Jack's at Lightning Flat, before he goes back to Signal and asks if Ennis has been there. I guess maybe Jack could have put the shirts together, and then gone to Signal and seen no sign of Ennis, and then gone off to Texas to try to forget about him, until the memories got to be too much, or Jack got too lonely, or Jack got tired of being rejected by rodeo clowns and his father-in-law.

**

Thanks for those links to the photos, belbbmfan. They really do look like the movie costumes.

**

Hey, shakestheground -- I think you're the 2nd person who has mentioned that it makes complete sense for Ennis to take the shirts, so he can remember Jack. And I agree completely! I was wondering more about Jack's motivation -- Jack takes the shirts at the end of that summer on the mountain, when he's got his whole life ahead of him, when Ennis is still alive, though engaged to be married. And I wondered what Jacks motivation was.

[starboardlight]

I actually go back and forth between these two viewpoints. In thinking more about this, there are two different actions that Jack did: he took Ennis's shirt in the first place, and then he layered the two shirts together (the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one). And though Jack's taking the shirt in the first place is significant, it's the way they are put together and hidden there that's so devastating. So I end up going back to the question of when Jack put the shirts together.

Part of me (a big part) thinks he didn't do put the shirts together until after the reunion. During Jack's time rodeoing, he seems to be trying to get over Ennis -- going to Texas (so far away), trying to pick up Jimbo, marrying Lureen. Would Jack have waited four years to send a postcard if he already knew that he wasn't ever going to really get over Ennis?

I'm not so sure about that. Jack kept his own shirt unwashed, with the blood on the sleeve. So he intended to keep his own shirt along with Ennis's. He may/may not have tucked them together at first, but the two shirts were a set in his mind, right from the moment he took them.

[welliwont]

So, this must mean that Ennis came down from the day with the sheep, after his hillside chat with Jack and changed his shirt before the second tent scene.
 

Just when you think you have absorbed every nuance of this masterpiece, voila! another detail to mull over.   

I'm not so sure about that. Jack kept his own shirt unwashed, with the blood on the sleeve. So he intended to keep his own shirt along with Ennis's. He may/may not have tucked them together at first, but the two shirts were a set in his mind, right from the moment he took them.

I always wonder what Jack told his mother about the shirts, he had to stop her from washing them somehow, and  a mother's first instinct would be to wash them and to try to get the bloodstains out.  Of course by the time she might have seen them the bloodstains could have been set already.

"Don't throw out them two dirty shirts ah'm leavin' up there in ma closet, Ma.  'N don't wash 'em neither, jus leave 'em be."

"The one's wid the blood on 'em?  Why Jackie, you know I gotta try and get that blood out quick as I can."

"Juss leave 'em be..."

[starboardlight]

Just when you think you have absorbed every nuance of this masterpiece, voila! another detail to mull over.   

I always wonder what Jack told his mother about the shirts, he had to stop her from washing them somehow, and  a mother's first instinct would be to wash them and to try to get the bloodstains out.  Of course by the time she might have seen them the bloodstains could have been set already.

"Don't throw out them two dirty shirts ah'm leavin' up there in ma closet, Ma.  'N don't wash 'em neither, jus leave 'em be."

"The one's wid the blood on 'em?  Why Jackie, you know I gotta try and get that blood out quick as I can."

"Juss leave 'em be..."

i wonder if he didn't have to. he talked about Ennis enough, so he may already feel that she understands his feelings for Ennis. In addition, he hid the shirts in a nook inside the closet, so he probably thinks that he's the only one who knows about them. otherwise, why hide them?

[welliwont]

i wonder if he didn't have to. he talked about Ennis enough, so he may already feel that she understands his feelings for Ennis.

Hmm, ok...

In addition, he hid the shirts in a nook inside the closet, so he probably thinks that he's the only one who knows about them. otherwise, why hide them?

Well maybe its just me, but I don't think that they were very hidden, to me that was not really a *hiding* place at all!!  WTF, Ennis found them in no time flat!   If I was his mother I would have seen them there.

[starboardlight]

Well maybe its just me, but I don't think that they were very hidden, to me that was not really a *hiding* place at all!!  WTF, Ennis found them in no time flat!   If I was his mother I would have seen them there.

yeah, you're right. i can imagine, she's taking them out to wash, and he runs after her and retrieve the shirts from her, saying "It's Ennis." and that's all he'd have to say, while she gives him a knowing smile.

[silkncense]

I'm not so sure about that. Jack kept his own shirt unwashed, with the blood on the sleeve. So he intended to keep his own shirt along with Ennis's.

I agree.  And I think the fact that he kept them together, esp if they were hanging together, his mother would know not to wash them.  Since Jack's room was so neat, I suspect that if he wanted something washed, he specifically gave it to his mother or put it in a designated place.

What do you think Jack said to his mother that first summer, coming home to Lightning Flat with that bruise on his face?  Do you think he spoke excitedly about Ennis - when did he really start the Ennis conversations with his parents???  After the reunion?

[nakymaton]

I'm not so sure about that. Jack kept his own shirt unwashed, with the blood on the sleeve. So he intended to keep his own shirt along with Ennis's. He may/may not have tucked them together at first, but the two shirts were a set in his mind, right from the moment he took them.

That's a really good point, Nipith. I hadn't thought of that. And yeah, JakeTwist, you're right, Jack would have had to keep his mother from washing both shirts. (I kind of imagine her letting Jack have his privacy and not asking too many questions -- she just strikes me as someone who can understand what's going on without having it spelled out to her. But since Jack only had two shirts on the mountain as well, she must have known that only one of them got washed when he got home. It wasn't like Jack came home with a huge bag of laundry or anything. But... hmmm. I don't know about Jack explaining much about Ennis. He's more open than Ennis is - at the very least, he's able to say "Brokeback Mountain" to other people - but I don't see him being that open. Even with his parents. I mean, Jack's a pretty good liar, and I assume he learned how to lie as a child. And Jack seems to lie almost instinctively at times. He probably learned to do that to deal with his father, but... hmmm. It seems like it would be hard for Jack to be open with his mother and lie to his father all the time in that little house together, if that makes any sense at all.)

What do you think Jack said to his mother that first summer, coming home to Lightning Flat with that bruise on his face?  Do you think he spoke excitedly about Ennis - when did he really start the Ennis conversations with his parents???  After the reunion?

Again, I just don't see Jack being that open about the whole experience. Certainly not with his father. I imagine that Jack lied about the reason for the bruise. And I imagine Jack bringing up Ennis almost defiantly, while arguing with his father. But that's really just speculation. I'm not going on anything stronger than gut feelings and imagination here.

[starboardlight]

That's a really good point, Nipith. I hadn't thought of that. And yeah, JakeTwist, you're right, Jack would have had to keep his mother from washing both shirts. (I kind of imagine her letting Jack have his privacy and not asking too many questions -- she just strikes me as someone who can understand what's going on without having it spelled out to her. But since Jack only had two shirts on the mountain as well, she must have known that only one of them got washed when he got home. It wasn't like Jack came home with a huge bag of laundry or anything. But... hmmm. I don't know about Jack explaining much about Ennis. He's more open than Ennis is - at the very least, he's able to say "Brokeback Mountain" to other people - but I don't see him being that open. Even with his parents. I mean, Jack's a pretty good liar, and I assume he learned how to lie as a child. And Jack seems to lie almost instinctively at times. He probably learned to do that to deal with his father, but... hmmm. It seems like it would be hard for Jack to be open with his mother and lie to his father all the time in that little house together, if that makes any sense at all.)

Again, I just don't see Jack being that open about the whole experience. Certainly not with his father. I imagine that Jack lied about the reason for the bruise. And I imagine Jack bringing up Ennis almost defiantly, while arguing with his father. But that's really just speculation. I'm not going on anything stronger than gut feelings and imagination here.

well, Jack spoke openly about bring Ennis up to their ranch to live and work the ranch. I can't imagine that Jack doesn't understand how honest that is. He surely knows that the implication is that he and Ennis are lovers. His daddy and mama seem to understand it well enough.

[serious crayons]

well, Jack spoke openly about bring Ennis up to their ranch to live and work the ranch. I can't imagine that Jack doesn't understand how honest that is. He surely knows that the implication is that he and Ennis are lovers. His daddy and mama seem to understand it well enough.

Yeah, I think that's all he'd have to say and they'd both get it. I can't imagine him being much more explicit than that, even with his nice mom.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Yes, Yes, Jack's motivation, ah what would life be with out dyslexia...

I think that Jack took that shirt because Ennis had just punched him and he thought "that's it" like it was all over, he wanted to keep something of his, hid it inside his own shirt, in his own closet, and at the end of the winter of '63-'64, he left them hanging there and headed out for Signal again, hoping Ennis Del Mar had 'been around".

Last night I came across a cassette tape scrawled on it "Pink Industry" I remember the guy, a college kid, that left it in my apartment in 1986. I gave it a kiss and put it back on the shelf.

[moremojo]

There's something kind of sad and poignant about just taking the shirt rather than asking for it (or offering a shirt in exchange). I'm not sure I understand quite why I feel that way.

I agree. The fact that Jack acquires Ennis's shirt through an act of stealing adds a level of complex and troubled beauty to the story. It's difficult to articulate how and why this film is so powerful--there's something mysterious about it. That may be one reason we keep going back to it, over and over again, in physical experience and in memory.

Scott

[Brown Eyes]

I agree. The fact that Jack acquires Ennis's shirt through an act of stealing adds a level of complex and troubled beauty to the story. It's difficult to articulate how and why this film is so powerful--there's something mysterious about it. That may be one reason we keep going back to it, over and over again, in physical experience and in memory.

Scott

I agree too.  I think at least it has the status of a surprise for Ennis.  If Jack had asked for the shirst explicitly, the end of the movie wouldn't have had the feeling of a revelation.  Ennis had no idea that Jack kept such a powerful memento for so long.  This surprise in Jack's closet needs to hit Ennis like a ton of bricks for the symbol to have as much power as it clearly does.

This is reminding me of that wonderful old review of BBB by David Mendelsohn in the New York Review of Books.  Early on, I thought this was one of the best pieces of writing I'd seen about the movie/ story.  Honestly, these days I think a lot of the analysis that goes on here at BetterMost is at least equal to this... if not better at times.

The climax of these visual contrasts is also the emotional climax of the film, which takes place in two consecutive scenes, both of which prominently feature closets—literal closets. In the first, a grief-stricken Ennis, now in his late thirties, visits Jack's childhood home, where in the tiny closet of Jack's almost bare room he discovers two shirts—his and Jack's, the clothes they'd worn during their summer on Brokeback Mountain—one of which Jack has sentimentally encased in the other. (At the end of that summer, Ennis had thought he'd lost the shirt; only now do we realize that Jack had stolen it for this purpose.) The image —which is taken directly from Proulx's story—of the two shirts hidden in the closet, preserved in an embrace which the men who wore them could never fully enjoy, stands as the poignant visual symbol of the story's tragedy. Made aware too late of how greatly he was loved, of the extent of his loss, Ennis stands in the tiny windowless space, caressing the shirts and weeping wordlessly.

In the scene that follows, another misplaced piece of clothing leads to a similar scene of tragic realization. Now middle-aged and living alone in a battered, sparsely furnished trailer (a setting with which Proulx's story begins, the tale itself unfolding as a long flashback), Ennis receives a visit from his grown daughter, who announces that she's engaged to be married. "Does he love you?" the blighted father protectively demands, as if realizing too late that this is all that matters. After the girl leaves, Ennis realizes she's left her sweater behind, and when he opens his little closet door to store it there, we see that he's hung the two shirts from their first summer, one still wearing the other, on the inside of the closet door, below a tattered postcard of Brokeback Mountain. Just as we see this, the camera pulls back to allow us a slightly wider view, which reveals a little window next to the closet, a rectangular frame that affords a glimpse of a field of yellow flowers and the mountains and sky. The juxtaposition of the two spaces—the cramped and airless closet, the window with its unlimited vistas beyond—efficiently but wrenchingly suggests the man's tragedy: the life he has lived, the life that might have been. His eyes filling with tears, Ennis looks at his closet and says, "Jack, I swear..."; but he never completes his sentence, as he never completed his life.

I think one of the things that Mendelsohn gets wrong is the idea that Ennis only now understands that Jack loved him.  It's a beautiful sentence though.  I'm quite sure that Ennis knew this all along... I think it was only a matter of articulating the situation clearly.  This visual symbol was enough to wake Ennis up to the reality of their whole 20 year long relationship.  And, I'm sure the shirts really did make Ennis aware of the extent of his loss.  I keep coming back to the tragedy of the lost time.  Ennis and Jack could have spent so, so much more time together over the 20 years that they did have if they had lived together or even lived closer. 
 

[serious crayons]

I think one of the things that Mendelsohn gets wrong is the idea that Ennis only now understands that Jack loved him.  It's a beautiful sentence though.  I'm quite sure that Ennis knew this all along...

I totally agree. Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority), and also bring home in a heartbreakingly concrete way the fact that Jack is gone and how little Ennis has to remember him by. But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.

When I go back and read reviews now, I'm always amazed at how superficial they are compared to the discussions we have here. Though not really surprised -- critics have to think and write incredibly fast, often formulating complex opinions on the basis of one viewing. I've never understood how they can do it.

[Brown Eyes]

I totally agree. Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority), and also bring home in a heartbreakingly concrete way the fact that Jack is gone and how little Ennis has to remember him by. But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.

When I go back and read reviews now, I'm always amazed at how superficial they are compared to the discussions we have here. Though not really surprised -- critics have to think and write incredibly fast, often formulating complex opinions on the basis of one viewing. I've never understood how they can do it.

Heya Katherine,

Yup, in our longstanding tradition, I agree too.   

The part of Mendelsohn's line that I like best... is the idea that Ennis is made aware here of the "extent of his loss."  I think this is true on many, many levels.  But I hope against hope that not only did he know how much Jack loved him all along... but that he understood how much he loved Jack in return all along.

For me the focus of the film isn't about worrying too much about whether or not our boys loved each other (to me that's pretty clear)... I worry, and I think we're supposed to worry about the pressures their relationship faced and about how they chose to/ could find the courage to "honor" that love.

Anyway, yes, I think the discussions here and some from imdb far surpass some of even the best and most thoughtful reviews.  Can you imagine what would happen if BetteMost Brokies got together and wrote a book or something?  It would be one heck of an anthology of reviews, reflections, etc. about this film.  Hmmm....  (to quote Ennis).
 
 

[welliwont]

  …Made aware too late of how greatly he was loved, of the extent of his loss,

I think one of the things that Mendelsohn gets wrong is the idea that Ennis only now understands that Jack loved him.  It's a beautiful sentence though.  I'm quite sure that Ennis knew this all along... I think it was only a matter of articulating the situation clearly.  This visual symbol was enough to wake Ennis up to the reality of their whole 20 year long relationship.  And, I'm sure the shirts really did make Ennis aware of the extent of his loss.

I totally agree.  Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority) ....  But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.

Hello Amanda and Katherine:

You do not know me, but I surely do know you both from reading your many posts here!  I have been deep into the study of BBM since the first time I saw it in the cinema, which was only on April 13th.  Even after all this time I am still going around the coffee pot looking for the handle.  I want to pin down every single nuance of this masterpiece, at which time I will write the book Amanda is callling for.  I only hope I am worthy of this honour!

Anyhoo, here is what I want to say/ask: 
On the subject of "When did Ennis realize that Jack loved him?"  Was it when he found the shirts together in the closet, or did he know this all along?  Now cast your minds back to.... in the movie, the scene before TNIT, Jack says "Tell you what, truth is........  sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  And Ennis looks at Jack with an (undecipherable-to-me look) and says _________ NOTHING!!!  (Damn you, Ennis!!)

Now if Ennis DID know all along how much Jack loved him, how do you interpret Ennis' expression and lack of reply to Jack's heartwrenching statement?  How could he just sit there and not even say a word?!  To me that's just cold!!  (I know that in the 2003 screenplay they had Ennis replying "I know the feeling"  but they dropped that line.  I had a post about that topic a few weeks ago, here is the link http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1164.msg25418#msg25418, in fact, you replied to me then Katherine!)

Other posters have explained Ennis' lack of response as:  Ennis is thinking to himself, "Oh damn, just wait 'till you hear the bad news about August".  IMO that is Ennis being very oblivious and superficial.  That Ennis really was that blind to Jack's love, did not realize that it was love, or did not realize how much Jack loved him.  This interpretation of that scene fits with Mendelsohn's statement.

just a question...

Perhaps one of the reasons I haven't finished my coffee yet is bcz of the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the movie and the story (and the screenplay).  Maybe I will never be able to reconcile all the enigmas!

[serious crayons]

Hi JakeTwist, nice to meet you. I looked up the post you mentioned, and I see that I answered it, only I addressed my answer to J. Did you used to be J, or did I make a mistake? If so, I apologize. Either way, glad you're here. Your post is interesting.

I think the "sometimes I wish you so much" scene may be an example of those permanently unreconciled enigmas you mention, where you just have to interpret it the way that makes most sense to you, or the way you'd most like to think of it.

I am happy to make excuses for Ennis in almost every one of his nonresponsive scenes, because they're usually accompanied by expressive nonverbal language. But this one really does bother me. I would love it if he'd said "I know what you mean" -- it wouldn't be so demonstrative as to be out of character, but it wouldn't have left Jack's big statement just hanging there unrequited.

However, I do tend to lean toward the "he feels guilty about what he has to say tomorrow" interpretation. For one thing, he clearly does feel guilty about it -- he is all nervous when he brings it up, and he waits til the last possible second to do so.

Also, I can't imagine what else he'd be thinking except that he does know what Jack means. Not "Really? That's funny, cause I sure don't miss you." No. He missed Jack like crazy during their four years apart. Sixteen years later, he has trained himself to stand it ... except that the very next morning, he confesses that he  can't stand it no more. And there's another enigmatic line in itself. But I think that in view of the fact that "If you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it" is such a significant theme in the movie (and, for that matter, the story), it makes sense to pay attention when the word comes up.

So I guess, stretching as hard as I can to defend Ennis, the "stand it" part may be another part of the reason he remains silent. He's thinking, "Uh-oh, Jack can hardly stand it, but he's got to -- I have to skip August and I can't fix that." So he turns away, looking troubled.

[starboardlight]

For me, Ennis's lack of response in that scene seems right. There's a difference between knowing that you're loved and being able to express the love back. Ennis still struggles with the latter, even though he understands how Jack feels about him. The look he gives Jack shows that he takes Jack's words seriously. There are times when you get overwhelmed with an emotion, and you just get paralyzed with not knowing what to say or how to react. (Dam! I'm still such an Ennis) For me, the scene doesn't contradict the interpretation that Ennis knows that Jack loves him.

[Mikaela]

I don't think I've got much to add to what Katherine and Stardboardlight have said in the previous posts concerning the "Sometimes I miss you so bad" line. Ennis knows how Jack feels, though jack saying it out loud like that is heartbreaking.  I am absolutely certain that Ennis surely feels the same - but as always when emotions are running strong and close to the surface, Ennis turns into his infuriatingly introvert, silent self. His emotions are so strong, he responds by default - going as blank as possible on the surface. Also, he *has* to be thinking with dread about the disappointment he'll have to give Jack the next day..... not only having to say that he's cancelling August - but also what that cancellation will mean in terms of loss and longing for the both of them. If he admits out loud that he feels the same, how will he *ever* manage to cancel August the very next day?

But......is it only me imagining seeing the glint of wetness in Ennis's eyes there?

However that is, we know that Ennis always expresses his feelings through actions where he can't find the words. I therefore find it comforting that the next scene we get is the two of them asleep in the tent, Ennis's arm holding Jack close. I imagine Ennis has found a way to respond to Jack to show what he feels, since he can't find the words.

[serious crayons]

However that is, we know that Ennis always expresses his feelings through actions where he can't find the words. I therefore find it comforting that the next scene we get is the two of them asleep in the tent, Ennis's arm holding Jack close. I imagine Ennis has found a way to respond to Jack to show what he feels, since he can't find the words.

Well said, Mikaela, both about Ennis' tendency to shut down when he gets emotional, and the thought above. I've always found that scene extremely comforting. Much more so, in fact, than the dozy embrace, which always makes me really sad.

[Penthesilea]

Ennis's "I can't stand this anymore" (the next day) mirrors Jack's "I hardly can stand it". Though it is evolved by the argument, it can be seen as an direct answer. And Ennis even tops Jack's statement.

I have the feeling Ennis did in fact respond to Jack's avowal, but it's not shown to us. The scene is cut at this point (if memory servres), and next we see is both of them sleeping in the tent, Ennis cuddled around Jack. There must have been some loving interaction before (and I hope and think, love-making too). As so often, we don't see what happens in between. We have to fill in the blanks ourselves. And I believe Ang Lee let out Ennis reaction (from the story) consiously for that purpose: not spoon-feeding the audience.


Straboarlight's comment is a good one, too:

There are times when you get overwhelmed with an emotion, and you just get paralyzed with not knowing what to say or how to react.

Being not much of an Ennis myself, I wouldn't have thought of this. But it makes sense.

[silkncense]

Mikaela -

My thoughts exactly & perfectly stated.

[Brown Eyes]

Wow, this is a really good discussion... I think you've all made great points.  I agree with both of you, Penthesilea and starboardlight, about Ennis and non-verbal communication and/ or Ennis's continued feeling of being somewhat paralyzed when it comes to direct (and mostly verbal) expressions of affection.  Mikaela, I've always seen a twinkle in Ennis's eye during this conversation.  It starts out as a happy twinkle (laughing a bit at the earlier conversation and sort of enjoying gazing at Jack a bit) and ends in a much more melancholy way... maybe the twinkle does turn to an almost-tear.  Ennis certainly seems to tear-up easily in many scenes.  I'm sure he's a bit blown away by Jack's statement.  Yes, I think he feels guilt and worry about having to break his news the next day, but I also think it must feel really amazing to him to hear that much devotion explicitly stated.  I think the camera does cut away before we see him fully absorb Jack's statement.  And, yup, I think his main response must be physical in the tent (although it's an ominous tent encounter since there's no moon).

And, more on JakeTwist's question (welcome by the way!)... I think Ennis doesn't "have the language" to articulate what he feels about Jack, but I think the emotion of love is really there for him (probably at least from the 2nd tent scene on).  I don't really believe Ennis thinks that Jack is just a "friend with benefits" for 20 years.  No, Ennis believes that he's structured his life so that he can facilitate the sporadic meetings with Jack.  20 years is just too long a time to be in complete denial about such a powerful situation.  I think also that by the second to last camping trip when Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people "know" and wonders if Jack's relationship with Lureen is "normal" he's already given up on the idea that he's not "queer."  These questions are almost outright admissions that he feels and knows what his situation is.

[Rayn]

What possessed Jack to take Ennis' shirt?   As I see it, Jack was attracted to Ennis from "the git-go", had a real interest in him right off, eyed him like a bobcat a jackrabbit at first, then again like a sly devil in the rear view mirror of his truck when he was shavin'. 

Jack was the more sexually aware, aware of his need and desire for men.  Yeah, they both had women, but nothing came close to what they had with each other. 

Jack never fell out of the love they made in each other that Brokeback Summer.   Ennis didn't know it as clearly, but he had fallen for Jack just as deeply.  So, yeah, I think Jack took the shirt to remember that summer with Ennis in case he never saw him again.

The shirts were a marvelous invention of Annie's, a beautiful symbol of their bond of passion, longing, love and the pain of loss.   Everything about their love for each other is within those two shirts become one.  No one who sees the movie can ever forget that remarkable symbol.

Rayn

[starboardlight]

Straboarlight's comment is a good one, too:
Being not much of an Ennis myself, I wouldn't have thought of this. But it makes sense.

and I'm too much an Ennis. It made sense to me right away. I've shut down too many times to count. It just knocked me to the ground to see so much of me in him. The way he looked/not look at Jack. His introvertion. His paralysis. Hit so close to home.

[Mikaela]

.....I also think it must feel really amazing to him to hear that much devotion explicitly stated.  I think the camera does cut away before we see him fully absorb Jack's statement.  And, yup, I think his main response must be physical in the tent (although it's an ominous tent encounter since there's no moon).

I just had the opportunity to re-watch the film one more time in the cinema, and one sequence that struck me strongly was the transition from Jack's "sometimes I miss you" line and Ennis's lack of spoken reply, to the two of them in the tent, to the landscape outside with the river water rushing by in darkness. The river is still there,  the symbol of Jack's and Ennis's relationship, and its current is going strong and fast - though in the darkness of night. To me, the sequence and imagery of those two latter scenes now give an extremely expressive visual representation of the short story's "brilliant charge" being "darkened by the sense of time flying". Their feelings for and attraction to each other is just as strong (expressed through Jack's spoken line, the physical intimacy in the tent and the flowing river), but time and distance and longing have nevertheless taken their toll and darkened the mood. (ie. the dark night / moonless night sky).

I think Ennis doesn't "have the language" to articulate what he feels about Jack, but I think the emotion of love is really there for him (probably at least from the 2nd tent scene on).  [snip]  I think also that by the second to last camping trip when Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people "know" and wonders if Jack's relationship with Lureen is "normal" he's already given up on the idea that he's not "queer."  These questions are almost outright admissions that he feels and knows what his situation is.

I agree with this. At two crucial times when Ennis tries to speak about his physical relationship to a *man*, or to men ie. about being "queer, he says "I don't know". That's his answer when Jack asks where he stands in relation to "getting into this again" after 4 years. (Though Ennis's expression there gives his *real* answer. **sigh**) And when Ennis speaks about people in the streets knowing, he starts out with: You ever get the feeling, I don't know...."

He doesn't know;  - meaning: He doesn't know how to articulate or adequately express in words all that he's nevertheless *aware* that he's feeling. For he knows that he's feeling *so very, very much*  - about getting into it again with Jack, and about being, - and being seen as, -  "queer". 

Ennis having come to consider himself a "queer" contributes significantly to the darkening of the mood in those latter scenes, I think. For that realization on his part hasn't altered his homophobic opinion of "queers"- including himself. Increased self-loathing *and* increased fear of being found out are the consequences,. Hardly bright and cheerful aspects of being deeply in love.

[Meryl]

From Mikaela
To me, the sequence and imagery of those two latter scenes now give an extremely expressive visual representation of the short story's "brilliant charge" being "darkened by the sense of time flying". Their feelings for and attraction to each other is just as strong (expressed through Jack's spoken line, the physical intimacy in the tent and the flowing river), but time and distance and longing have nevertheless taken their toll and darkened the mood. (ie. the dark night / moonless night sky).

I like how you've likened the film technique to the story quote.  Very enlightening! 

That rushing water is always a powerful symbol, but here especially it takes on so much meaning.  It could also be a foretelling of the end of the relationship.  Time is rushing inexorably by, and only hours remain for them now until they part forever.  For the first time, we see where the river is flowing--it's reaching its end in the lake.

I just watched those scenes again on the DVD, and it's interesting to note that there is still movement visible in the water behind them as they sit drinking whiskey.  Then there's the shot of the stream flowing into the lake behind the dark tent (its current is gentler compared to the previous fishing trip scene--another indication of  diminishing strength?).  Finally, the lake seen the next morning is almost still--only ripples are left on the surface.  That's the last time we see water in the film, too. 

Ennis having come to consider himself a "queer" contributes significantly to the darkening of the mood in those latter scenes, I think. For that realization on his part hasn't altered his homophobic opinion of "queers"- including himself. Increased self-loathing *and* increased fear of being found out are the consequences,. Hardly bright and cheerful aspects of being deeply in love.

Yes, I think that contributed a great deal to his cutting off the relationship with Cassie without a word.  In the scene with her at the bus station, I see it in his eyes now when she says "I don't get you, Ennis del Mar."  He's wondering if she'll put two and two together eventually.  The poor man is just the picture of absolute misery. 

[Brown Eyes]

The river is still there,  the symbol of Jack's and Ennis's relationship, and its current is going strong and fast - though in the darkness of night. To me, the sequence and imagery of those two latter scenes now give an extremely expressive visual representation of the short story's "brilliant charge" being "darkened by the sense of time flying". Their feelings for and attraction to each other is just as strong (expressed through Jack's spoken line, the physical intimacy in the tent and the flowing river), but time and distance and longing have nevertheless taken their toll and darkened the mood. (ie. the dark night / moonless night sky).

Heya Mikaela, I like this reading of the final tent scene.  I do think there's a lot to be optimistic about regarding this last moment of physical affection that we see.  It's a great "bookend" to the first tent scene... obviously at the very beginning of the first scene, Ennis jolts his hand away quickly once Jack pulls Ennis's arm around him.  And, here in the third tent scene, Ennis is peacefully embracing Jack in that exact same position (essentially) as if this is now their routine.  Adorable.  So, Ennis has come a long way.  Also, I love that you point out that the water is still strong.  I think it's important to recognize that their love/ attraction hasn't diminished, but that there are huge coming obstacles and the relationship has been stretched about to it's limit after all the years of stress and strain that have been places upon it.   Somewhere, there's a great thread kicking around about the importance of the full moon as a vital symbol of "true love".  I don't even remember if the moonlight thread is here on BetterMost or was back on imdb.  Anyway, it's been discussed that the full moon in Chinese mythology is the sign of true love... and that the moon is highlighted in BBM at key moments.  Right before the first tent scene the full moon emerges out from behind the clouds.  During the prayer of thanks camping trip the full moon is bright and clear. Etc.  So, aside from being a handy device for telling the timeline of the story... it can be read on more symbolic levels.  I think the missing moon for the last tent scene is a bit of ominous foreshadowing.

Ennis having come to consider himself a "queer" contributes significantly to the darkening of the mood in those latter scenes, I think. For that realization on his part hasn't altered his homophobic opinion of "queers"- including himself. Increased self-loathing *and* increased fear of being found out are the consequences,. Hardly bright and cheerful aspects of being deeply in love.

I think even Ennis's opinion of "queers" is deeply conflicted and complicated.  For the most part, yes, I think he wrestles with the demons of his father's homophobia and the societal expectations that he's absorbed. BUT, I also think in the Earl flashback conversation, he reveals an interesting aspect of his OWN opinions about at least Earl and Rich.  He calls them "tough old birds" and seems downhearted about the idea that they were the "joke of town" (he doesn't seem to take any glee in this observation... but he does reveal that he was paying very close attention - even as a kid - to what was happening to these two guys).  But, by acknowledging that they were tough, he's paying them a compliment.  He realizes how hard their situation was and seems to admire their ability to go on despite all the pressures.  I think this little detail is important for distinguishing Ennis's Dad from Ennis (who was clearly very observant and thoughtful, even as a kid, about the situation surrounding Earl and Rich)

[Brown Eyes]

Bump
 

[Tristann]

What else did he have? That was the only tangible object that he had had to remember his darling, Jack! Looks like the shirts were enough for Ennis to spend his life remembering those unaffected/uncomplicated days at Brokeback, note the postcard  pasted/pinned near the shirts! I mean he did not even have the dubious comfort of going to Jack's grave!Beautifully enacted on the screen!   

I might be wrong here but I think he did have something else. When Ennis goes into Jack's room he finds the wooden horse and cowboy figurine he himself had carved (think earlier in the movie where they show Ennis inside the tent carving, what seems to me, said horse and cowboy). This is something I haven't seen a lot of people talk about. I'd think that Ennis gave the figurine to Jack and that he did so before they left the mountain the first time. So, in my mind, Jack did have something to remind him of Ennis.

I think that Jack realized how strongly he loved Ennis and was scared that he'll never see Ennis again. The closest he would come to Ennis was to have something very close to Ennis, i.e. his shirt. And with it the smells, memories and even blood. In my mind, the blood almost elevated the importance of the shirt to Jack, since it is a very real reminder of a very real person and a very real love. Am I making sense here? Time for bed...

[Rayn]

I might be wrong here but I think he did have something else. When Ennis goes into Jack's room he finds the wooden horse and cowboy figurine he himself had carved (think earlier in the movie where they show Ennis inside the tent carving, what seems to me, said horse and cowboy). This is something I haven't seen a lot of people talk about. I'd think that Ennis gave the figurine to Jack and that he did so before they left the mountain the first time. So, in my mind, Jack did have something to remind him of Ennis.

I think that Jack realized how strongly he loved Ennis and was scared that he'll never see Ennis again. The closest he would come to Ennis was to have something very close to Ennis, i.e. his shirt. And with it the smells, memories and even blood. In my mind, the blood almost elevated the importance of the shirt to Jack, since it is a very real reminder of a very real person and a very real love. Am I making sense here? Time for bed...

Yes, you make sense Tristann and I thought at one time that figurine was the one that Ennis was carving that rainy day in the tent on BBM, it certianly seems like something Ennis recognizes when he picks it up.  But it could very well just be a boyhood toy Jack had too.  A lot of us had toys like that.  The one Ennis is carving does seem bigger too.  Who knows?  Your theory is possible, and no doubt, the shirts, blood and all, are the more powerful keepsake and symbol of their joy and pain.

Rayn

[delalluvia]

OK, I'm into the game late here, but I agree that after the punch, Jack thought it was probably over.  He saw Ennis left the shirt behind, and took it, meaning to give it back if they might meet again.

After all, Ennis is extremely poor. Taking his shirt is like someone walking in your home and stealing 50% of your wardrobe.  Ennis only had 2 shirts to his name. 

Jack tried again in town, to wring a 'maybe we'll see each other next year' outta Ennis, but it didn't work, so he decided to keep the shirt.

Now, here's a little twist (no pun intended).  Who's to say he immediately hung up the shirt in his closest at Lightning Flat?  Jack was commutin' all over the Southwest following the rodeo for a couple of years at least.  He might have kept the shirt in his truck with him all that time.  Safe from his mother's laundry and any uncomfortable questions.  It would be something to keep him warm on cold lonely nights on the road.

When he married Lureen, he finally put the shirt away in his closet at his mom's house.  Again, to 'forget' and avoid  any uncomfortable questions from Lureen.  But of course, he couldn't forget.

Since he and Ennis ended on a bad note, even though they 'torqued things almost back to what they were' is it possible, the reason Ennis found the shirts in the niche in the closet was because Jack put them there?  Out of sight out of mind?  He was done waiting for Ennis and was going to try to start anew with Randall?  He certainly told his father that, but it was probably just talk.

I do things like that.  No matter how I feel about my ex's or how we broke up, it's easier to deal with the memories if the reminders aren't right there out in the open.

[moremojo]

Since he and Ennis ended on a bad note, even though they 'torqued things almost back to what they were' is it possible, the reason Ennis found the shirts in the niche in the closet was because Jack put them there?  Out of sight out of mind?  He was done waiting for Ennis and was going to try to start anew with Randall?  He certainly told his father that, but it was probably just talk.

I do things like that.  No matter how I feel about my ex's or how we broke up, it's easier to deal with the memories if the reminders aren't right there out in the open.

Hmmm...that's an interesting angle that had not occurred to me. The shirts were definitely hidden in Jack's Lightning Flat closet, and I had always assumed this was to keep them from prying eyes and hands, as Jack's secret treasures. I had not thought of the shirts being put away so that Jack could thereby  better bury the memory they represented. As with so many other details of this story, the truth can never be known...but it's an interesting speculation. Emotionally, I prefer to see the shirts as having always been treasured, and therefore hidden, rather than being hidden to negate the past.

Along these lines, it's significant that the shirts ended up in Lightning Flat, and not (apparently ever) in Childress. Jack certainly would not have wanted to risk having to explain them to Lureen, but he would have been separated from these emotionally charged totems for fairly long periods of time, a scenario that might compound our understanding of Jack's loneliness and pining for Ennis.

[Front-Ranger]

As the mother of two teenagers, I can assure you that the shirts were hidden there specifically to keep them safe from laundry-day raids!! Remember, the sleeves had blood on them!!

[delalluvia]

Along these lines, it's significant that the shirts ended up in Lightning Flat, and not (apparently ever) in Childress. Jack certainly would not have wanted to risk having to explain them to Lureen, but he would have been separated from these emotionally charged totems for fairly long periods of time, a scenario that might compound our understanding of Jack's loneliness and pining for Ennis.

Oh, no way the shirts would have found a home in Childress.  That wasn't 'home' to Jack.  The shirts and the memories they invoked belonged in Wyoming.  And yes, the unbearable yearning for something substantial - whether Ennis himself or at the least their shirts - would have really affected Jack.

[Shuggy]

and that it smelt of me,

When I was about 4 or 5, I used to wrap myself in my mother's pyjamas after she got up because they smelt of her. And look how Ennis holds the shirts to his face/nose when he finds them - isn't that one of the most potent images - if not THE most - in the film?

[Katie77]

I might be wrong here but I think he did have something else. When Ennis goes into Jack's room he finds the wooden horse and cowboy figurine he himself had carved (think earlier in the movie where they show Ennis inside the tent carving, what seems to me, said horse and cowboy). This is something I haven't seen a lot of people talk about. I'd think that Ennis gave the figurine to Jack and that he did so before they left the mountain the first time. So, in my mind, Jack did have something to remind him of Ennis.

I think that Jack realized how strongly he loved Ennis and was scared that he'll never see Ennis again. The closest he would come to Ennis was to have something very close to Ennis, i.e. his shirt. And with it the smells, memories and even blood. In my mind, the blood almost elevated the importance of the shirt to Jack, since it is a very real reminder of a very real person and a very real love. Am I making sense here? Time for bed...

I agree with you about the wooden horse and rider that was on Jack's dresser...that it was probably one that Ennis had made....maybe not the one we saw him carving, but he probably did others while he was waiting around doing nothing on brokeback.

I have sat here pondering what I think why Jack took the shirts in the first place, and I have come up with a few thoughts. 


One is that Jack mistakenly took the shirt when he picked up his own.

The logical and emotional reason of course, is that he wanted a memento of his time with Ennis on the mountain, because at that time he didnt know if they would ever meet up again.....this indicates that Jack's feelings then were all ready very strong, he knew then, that he didnt want to ever forget Ennis....When they were saying their good-byes, he said he was going to his parents ranch to help out, so I guess it was then he put the shirts away in the back of the closet.....When Ennis found them all those years later, it was then, that he realized that Jack had loved him from the very beginning.

[Momof2]

I do think Jack took the shirts so he would have something of Ennis'.  Not that it is the same, but my oldest sister died while I was a Sophmore in college.  I kept alot of her clothes for the simple fact that I wanted a visible physical piece of her.  I could take them out and think of her.  My little boy will smell something of mine and look at me with the most unbelievable smille and say "It smells like Mommie."  Melts my heart.  Sents can trigger powerful memories.  I smelled a lotion the other day that made me think of my Nana when I was 7 or 8 years old.  That was a long time ago, but it was like I was standing in her living room.

I think that Jack knew then that he was in love and I also think that when he said he was going to Lightning Flat to help his folks out through the winter that would be his only connection to Ennis and at least he would have something to help get through the winter.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I do think Jack took the shirts so he would have something of Ennis'.  Not that it is the same, but my oldest sister died while I was a Sophmore in college.  I kept alot of her clothes for the simple fact that I wanted a visible physical piece of her.  I could take them out and think of her.  My little boy will smell something of mine and look at me with the most unbelievable smille and say "It smells like Mommie."  Melts my heart.  Sents can trigger powerful memories.  I smelled a lotion the other day that made me think of my Nana when I was 7 or 8 years old.  That was a long time ago, but it was like I was standing in her living room.

I think that Jack knew then that he was in love and I also think that when he said he was going to Lightning Flat to help his folks out through the winter that would be his only connection to Ennis
nd at least he would have something to help get through the winter.

well put

[Katie77]

I do think Jack took the shirts so he would have something of Ennis'.  Not that it is the same, but my oldest sister died while I was a Sophmore in college.  I kept alot of her clothes for the simple fact that I wanted a visible physical piece of her.  I could take them out and think of her.  My little boy will smell something of mine and look at me with the most unbelievable smille and say "It smells like Mommie."  Melts my heart.  Sents can trigger powerful memories.  I smelled a lotion the other day that made me think of my Nana when I was 7 or 8 years old.  That was a long time ago, but it was like I was standing in her living room.

I think that Jack knew then that he was in love and I also think that when he said he was going to Lightning Flat to help his folks out through the winter that would be his only connection to Ennis and at least he would have something to help get through the winter.

I understand completely what you mean, I have been there too......

I also lost my eldest sister, aged 22, back in 1971, and I remember just wanting to smell her clothes....I would feel that she was there with me, instantly...it was something tangible......even years later, i would hold her clothes to try to get some scent of her.

I also have a bottle of the same perfume that I wore when I was 17 when i first met my husband, and as soon as I spray it on, I feel 17 again, and I am back in 1968.

Yes, the power of smell is is wonderful, and I am sure Jack held those shirts many many times to feel Ennis near him.....when I picture him doing that, I am filled with sadness, but also pleased that he had something to cling on to.

[Rayn]

"What possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?"

To have forever the sheer joy of a secret keepsake of love! 

Why else?   

Unfortunately, for Ennis, that secret joy turned forever into the deepest secret grief. 

Rayn

[Scott6373]

"What possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?"

To have forever the sheer joy of a secret keepsake of love! 

Why else?   

Unfortunately, for Ennis, that secret joy turned forever into the deepest secret grief. 

Rayn

If you view the story objectively, you will soon realize that everything that was Jack's secret joy ended up being Ennis' realized grief.  One could only hope that as time passed, Ennis viewed the shirt as less a reminder of mistakes made and opportunites missed, but as a visible symbol that good, great and wonderfull things happen all the time in out lives, and most fo them do not enter out lives with thunder claps and brass bands.  Rather, they show thmeselves in the soft gentle coming of love.

[Rayn]

If you view the story objectively, you will soon realize that everything that was Jack's secret joy ended up being Ennis' realized grief.  One could only hope that as time passed, Ennis viewed the shirt as less a reminder of mistakes made and opportunites missed, but as a visible symbol that good, great and wonderfull things happen all the time in out lives, and most fo them do not enter out lives with thunder claps and brass bands.  Rather, they show thmeselves in the soft gentle coming of love.

Thank you Scott6373... that's so true, but also, it means a great deal to me in my own life right now and to hear it from the outside from another really helps.  Love, old or new, can be confusing sometimes, but when it arrives in your life, the best thing to do is recognize it as a great gift to share with another.

Rayn

[Brown Eyes]

Bump!