Author Topic: a girl with an opinon  (Read 8885 times)

iluvchocolate

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a girl with an opinon
« on: March 29, 2006, 10:07:53 pm »
Hi there I'm new to the forum and a fan of Broke back mountain. I have gotten on the topic of the movie with someone I am close with.  And I want your opinion on this.

I really don't care about the fact the movie is about two men.  That really wasn't what the movie was about for me.  It was about cheating.   Bottom line they cheated on their wifes.. It doesn't make it right just because it was two men back in the 1960's.  Cheating was frowned upon then just as much if not more. I would be saying the same thing if they were in a same sex marriage.  Just because their two people of the same sex doesn't make this right. 

I am a married, hetersexual woman, with two young girls.  And have had gay men for friends and wish I was still close with them and also have been friends with someone who had a sex change.  So I find the movie about two people beening in love. It's just the fact that their cheating I can't get past.  When I try to explain my side I have been told I'm wrong.

 Don't get me wrong I love the movie!!  I just think people have this movie all wrong.

AM I WRONG???   Whats your opinion on this people????

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2006, 01:09:39 am »
I really don't care about the fact the movie is about two men.  That really wasn't what the movie was about for me.  It was about cheating.   Bottom line they cheated on their wifes.. It doesn't make it right just because it was two men back in the 1960's.  Cheating was frowned upon then just as much if not more. I would be saying the same thing if they were in a same sex marriage.  Just because their two people of the same sex doesn't make this right.

I understand your position on this.  That's why BBM was such a tragedy for everyone.  Jack and Ennis got married because that is what was expected of them.  But then their true feelings for one another sort of took them away.  There's a part of me that says they should have never gotten married in the first place once they had an affair, but they also seemed to believe that "this is a one shot deal" and perhaps supposed they would never get back into it after that summer was over.

I also think BBM deals with reality in a more adult manner than a lot of movies that seem to have cookie cutter pat answers to every situation.  You know the kind of movies where everything ends up sweetness and light and happy and then the credits roll and people drift out of the theatre.  Unfortunately, BBM is not escapist movie fare by any means.  For a lot of us, it rips emotions right open and leaves us with tremendous angst.

I don't think anyone of us thinks that Alma and Lureen weren't as much victims of the circumstances and Jack and Ennis were.  Thankfully, at least both fathers seemed to maintain a commitment and connection to their kids and Ennis paid child support/alimony.

Was it wrong that Jack and Ennis cheated?  Using a strict moral test, of course it was wrong.  But then considering the state of cheating and affairs and broken marriages in general in this country, a large percentage of the population can't afford to throw moral judgments because many of us have fallen short ourselves in one way or another.

The fact they cheated should bother us.  But so should the fact they could not fulfill a dream of a life together because of the oppression rural Wyoming life offered to those different from the norm.  If they truly loved one another, they should have been together because of that, not held back out of fear of being killed by angry intolerant neighbors.

So perhaps the question here is not whether you can get past the fact they cheated, but rather looking at the whole picture of injustice done to every character in the movie.  Annie Proulx made it clear that how we finish the story, as well as interpret it, is going to be colored by our own experiences and who we are as individuals.  That you are a married mom with kids that you love very much is going to color your experiences and interpretations because you would never want a similar thing to happen to you or your kids, and that is totally understandable.

Coming at this film as a gay guy, I have some different experiences and interpretations.  I've been in a committed relationship with a guy for almost 20 years myself.  I can't imagine myself tolerating an endless parade of excuses from Ennis about why we couldn't be together, and I'd probably have given up on him long before 20 years had run its course.  I also couldn't imagine contemplating a life with someone other than my partner at this point.  But I'm not Jack or Ennis or Lureen or Alma, so I can't say I can find myself in any of their shoes and say how I would react or deal with the things they've all done.

Real life is messy.  All we can do is try to treat each other with honesty and respect, and try to learn the lesson that we should live our lives as who we are, not what others expect us to be.

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Offline Rayn

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2006, 04:07:47 am »
"Real life is messy.  All we can do is try to treat each other with honesty and respect, and try to learn the lesson that we should live our lives as who we are, not what others expect us to be."   

Phillip


Amen to that, Phillip!

Life's messy and people are imperfect.  They don't always fit into the social roles and models imposed upon them by society i.e. that family, friends, employers, pastors, priests, politicians or governments want them to fit into and cheating on one's partner, by any moral measure, isn't nearly as dreadful and painfully destructive as someone being beaten and murdered because he doesn't meet the social expectations of others.  I think of poor Earl and maybe even Jack! 

BBM is a true reflection of life as it was and still is in some parts of the nation which is why it resonates so long after the credits roll up and are gone.  Think of Matthew Shephard.  His murder wasn't so long ago, right?  Well, what can we do about it?

We need to change the way we live and the laws we live under so that people are happier with their partners (so all people have the freedom to marry) and don't cheat. We need to decrease the amount of fear and violence in our society and the world. 

And how can we do that?  By teaching and increasing tolerance and acceptance of people who are different from us so that they aren't belittled, harassed, attacked, beaten up, tortured and murdered because "someone thinks" they are wrong! 

Damn, don't get me goin' or I'll be on a soapbox soon... but I do mean every word of it.


Peace,
Rayn


« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 07:47:07 am by Rayn »

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2006, 10:40:40 pm »
If they truly loved one another, they should have been together because of that, not held back out of fear of being killed by angry intolerant neighbors.

Your response took the words right out of my mouth, Phillip, and you articulated yourself very well in that post. But I'd like to say that I think they "truly loved one another." I really do. The only time you ever see them content and honestly happy is when they are with each other. And I'm not saying that you're indicating that they aren't in love either; I'm just saying, if anyone reads that sentence and gets that impression (admittedly, that was my first impression but then I came to a new conclusion), that there was a very deep (and beautiful, I must add  :)) love between them. What I did get out of your statement was that, because they loved each other, they should have been allowed to be together and not have to worry about any impending gay-bashings.

All in all, great response.

I agree that it's greatly unfortunate that Alma and Lureen had to endure such pain from the boys' secret affair but I just cannot find it in myself to blame Ennis and Jack. I care too much about them, and feel too much sympathy for them, to point fingers at them for what they did. These men were so in love with each other and so lost and (deep-down) depressive without each other, that even if they didn't cheat on their wives, their marriages still probably would have failed. (I realize Lureen and Jack's marriage didn't come to an end in this film but we are informed that their marriage is progressing awfully.)

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Offline RouxB

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2006, 04:50:47 pm »
"Don't get me wrong I love the movie!!  I just think people have this movie all wrong.
AM I WRONG???   Whats your opinion on this people?"

Well, I can't say you are wrong as to your reaction. I would suggest you are wront in saying that "people have this movie all wrong". I don't think most people, at least in this group-going out on a limb and speaking for others based on their posting histories-think the adultery was a great thing-I think they see it as a product of the environment in which the story takes place. Ennis and Jack are not heroes-they are just people living miserable lives because of who they love. In this I think the movie is all "right"-it shows the destruction that results when people are caged.

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Offline starboardlight

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2006, 02:16:29 am »
you're right. I don't think anyone here condones cheating. For me it's not about getting past the cheating but rather seeing deeper into it. If you only look at people's action and condemn them for it, you're only seeing a detail and missing the big picture. Often times, people hurt others because they themselves are in pain. Look deeper behind the actions, and you'll see that they are just as human as anyone else. All the characters are in so much pain for most of their lives, and you want so much for them to find happiness. Alma was able to extricate herself out of that painful situation. Ennis and Jack however have no where to go. Society at that time just didn't have a place for them. These men are not saints. They're just normal men. I put myself in their shoes, and I honestly can't say that I'd live any differently.

I think the film is brilliant in it's unflinching look at both the good and the bad, the ambiguous and the contradictory in the story. The contradiction have made me  more compassionate, especially to those who seem to least deserve it, because there's a lot of pain in people lives. In understanding people's pain, you can then begin to understand how to help them heal. When you can do that, only then you can you begin to break the cycle of cheating and hurting.

You have to ask yourself, if you're going to condemn the men for cheating, what can you do to make sure that men like these don't cheat? Will you simply stand in judgement? or will you try to help them feel free to be who they really are?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 02:29:50 am by starboardlight »
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2006, 02:24:58 am »
I agree that it's greatly unfortunate that Alma and Lureen had to endure such pain from the boys' secret affair but I just cannot find it in myself to blame Ennis and Jack. I care too much about them, and feel too much sympathy for them, to point fingers at them for what they did. These men were so in love with each other and so lost and (deep-down) depressive without each other, that even if they didn't cheat on their wives, their marriages still probably would have failed. (I realize Lureen and Jack's marriage didn't come to an end in this film but we are informed that their marriage is progressing awfully.)

i think this is a good point. whether they cheated or not, the men just didn't have the capacity to connect emotionally with their wives. that ultimately is where the hurt came from. they should never have been married in the first place. I tend to want to blame society for this. Some might argue, but for young men and women, there was and still is tremendous pressure to get married. From family member constantly asking "when are you going to marry?" to rumors flying about if you're not married by a certain age. For men like Ennis and Jack, in their time, rumors can be a death sentence. 
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 05:44:55 pm »
We miss you, iluvchocolate! Get your scrawny A back to BetterMost!!
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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 10:49:48 pm »
Hi everyone,

I'm just shaking my head here from left to right - somehow, I just cringe with annoyance when I hear the expression "cheating" in the situation between Jack and Ennis.

You can cheat in cards (in poker it's called bluffing); you can cheat your employer; you can cheat in golf; you can cheat in a marathon race - I can go on and on, but don't refer to Jack's and Ennis's passion for each other as cheating on someone else.  You can comment, you can even make a remark, but don't make a judgement!

Affectionately,

Pierre -  >:(


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2007, 03:39:07 am »
What is this film about?

Two people who fall in love with each other?s souls, irrespective of gender?

Gay or bisexual men compelled by society and their own minds to pretend to live straight lives?

Undereducated ?dummies? who are belittled by former employers or teased by prospective girlfriends, or made to feel unworthy at dinner parties?

Wounded wives, scorned girlfriends, neglected children? Life in lonesome places, where a big treat is driving to town once a week for ice cream?

Foremen who demand that their workers show up on Christmas, in a blizzard? Bosses who hire and lose the same employee two or three times a year?

Mothers who cherish their sons despite horrid fathers? Siblings who drift so far apart in adulthood that they live in three different towns?

Devoting 20 years of your life to an unsatisfactory situation? Fear of losing the one you love because you demand or hold back too much?

Wow.  Barbara, you are a treasure.


Offline Katie77

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2007, 06:40:20 am »
I agree, Barbara, you definately got it right.......
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Katie77

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2007, 01:04:36 pm »
I've had this thread on my mind ever since I read it yesterday......I actually wrote a reply then, but after reading it back, it just didnt seem right, so I deleted it....so here I am again, giving it another go.

When I first read the original post to this thread, I thought, using the term "cheating" and when the original poster said that "that's what this movie was about"....I didnt want to agree with her, because to agree, would somehow cheapen the movie, and I didnt want to do that.

The more I thought about it, I tried to find some rationalism for the boys "cheating" on their wives, without actually saying that it was OK for these two but not OK for most other married men....

As a heterosexual married woman, when I saw the movie for the first time, when Alma looked out the door, and saw Jack and Ennis kissing, I couldnt help but feel her shock and her pain....after viewing the movie so many more times since, I seem to have forgotten about Alma's feelings, and just concentrated on Ennis and Jack's feelings...but now that this thread is in my head, I have now gone back to thinking about Alma.

My personal views on infedility, are that, if someone who is married, or in a partnership, cheats with someone else, then it should be done with discretion, and above all, in a way that doesnt hurt and cannot hurt the person they are cheating on....if that person discovers that their partner is cheating, then it will hurt them, but if they dont find out, then it is quite possible that they will never be hurt....(I am not trying to say that cheating is right, I'm just saying, that it is more likely to hurt someone, if and when they find out)...Ennis didn't directly hurt Alma.

I dont really think that Ennis thought he was cheating on Alma, I dont think, it was like his marriage to Alma, and what he had with Jack were two completely different things....he wasn't replacing what he got from Alma, with what he got from Jack....what he got and needed from Jack, was only something he could get from Jack...

As with most "lovers", there is a kind of unwritten law.....you can cheat on your spouse, but damned if you can cheat on your lover....very hypocritical, but quite a common fact.....remember how Ennis got angry with Jack, when he thought he had gone to Mexico and had someone else....yet he lauged when Jack said he was seeing the ranchers wife.....in his mind it was two different things, and in fact, it was.

I guess, it all comes back to the boys trying to please society, living a life that they just weren't meant to be, but unable to live the way they wanted because of the homophobic society that they belonged to.....its still happening today, many gay men marry, and then are forced to "cheat" on their wives, to fulfil their needs.

As much as I have used the word "cheat" many times thru this post, I too hate the word, when used in this context....I have used it here, merely for want of a better word, I do not use it in my usual conversation......I still dont know, if what I have written here, makes any sense, to me, or to any reader, my thoughts are all jumbled, but I needed to put them out there......

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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2007, 03:22:47 pm »
While I am certainly against cheating in any form I understand in the context of the film why Ennis and Jack did meet up for all those trips. I comend Ennis for staying with Alma and remaining in Riverton after their split for  his daughters and encouraging Jack to stay with his family. Even without his fears I doubt Ennis would leave ever thought to leave Alma with two children.

Having said that, say this. If I meet another man who decided it was OK to leave his family just because he realized he was gay and not face up to the commitments of raising his children with their mother I'm going to be the one throwing the punch!
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2007, 03:25:13 pm »
As with most "lovers", there is a kind of unwritten law.....you can cheat on your spouse, but damned if you can cheat on your lover....very hypocritical, but quite a common fact.....remember how Ennis got angry with Jack, when he thought he had gone to Mexico and had someone else....yet he lauged when Jack said he was seeing the ranchers wife.....in his mind it was two different things, and in fact, it was.

Never heard about this unwritten law.
But on a similar tone, I don't have any resentments on either Ennis or Jack for cheating on their wifes. But I do have resentments on Jack, especially storyJack ("He had some money now and and found ways to spend it on his buying trips"), for cheating on Ennis. Resentment is perhaps a too strong word here, but I lack of a less strong alternative here.


Quote
I dont really think that Ennis thought he was cheating on Alma, I dont think, it was like his marriage to Alma, and what he had with Jack were two completely different things....he wasn't replacing what he got from Alma, with what he got from Jack....what he got and needed from Jack, was only something he could get from Jack...

I respectfully disagree here. Even if it took him years to comprehend what he and Jack had together (and some people think that he never truly understood "this thing" before Jack's death), in the essence the act of cheating means having sex with a person other than your spouse/wife/husband/partner. Simple as that. And therefore both knew very well they very cheating on their wifes. But I think they had each their own ways to cope with that, to justify it to themselves. In the sense of what you wrote: two completely different things.


Quote
I guess, it all comes back to the boys trying to please society, living a life that they just weren't meant to be, but unable to live the way they wanted because of the homophobic society that they belonged to.....its still happening today, many gay men marry, and then are forced to "cheat" on their wives, to fulfil their needs.

"living a life they just weren't meant to be" Too true.

What you wrote and what else was said on this thread made me think of the thousands of women who are forced into marriages against their will by society's rules, their fathers, families, whatever. Today, mind you. In large parts of the world this is still very common. Any girl/woman is the possession of a man, be it her father, brother or husband.
Do our standards of morale apply to these women? Can we judge them with our (western) norms of moral behaviour? I think not.

And the same is true for Ennis and Jack.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2007, 03:43:55 pm »
Having said that, say this. If I meet another man who decided it was OK to leave his family just because he realized he was gay and not face up to the commitments of raising his children with their mother I'm going to be the one throwing the punch!

But facing ones commitments towards children doesn't mean you have to remain in an unhappy, unfulfilling marriage.
Divorcing and even moving away (even to another state) does not mean to abandon ones children.
In contrast, staying in an unhappy marriage can do just as much or even more harm to children than splitting up. What parents have to keep in mind is that they divorce their wife/husband, not their children.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2007, 03:57:18 pm »
No, a divorce breaks up a family, and the childten lives suffer for it. If the stay parents focused on the children, so much more important than any adult issues, and make the best of it everone will benifit. You make a choice to  marry and a choice to have childten. And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 09:11:01 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Katie77

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2007, 11:19:02 pm »
No, a divorce breaks up a family, and the childten lives suffer for it. If the stay parents focused on the children, so much more important than any adult issues, and make the best of it everone will benifit. You make a choice to  marry and a choice to have childten. And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.

Got to disagree here, using my own personal experiences....

Firstly, I was the child of divorced parents, my father left my mother to live with a man, when I was 7yrs old...To tell you the truth, back then, in the late 50's (when i was in the minority, having divorced parents), from what I can remember, I just got on with what life dealt me...can't remember crying myself to sleep at night, saw enough of my dad, that I felt he was "still around", even later when I was a teenager and he moved interstate...and then when I married myself, and knew what love was all about, I was happy that my mum and dad, had been able to find love with someone else and lead a happy life.....

Not perfect, no, but I still grew up knowing my mum and dad loved me and both provided me with a home where I felt safe and comfortable.

Two generations later, I am watching the same thing happen, with my grandchildren....10 years ago, my son's wife, gave him a note to say she would be moving to another town and taking his two children with her...there was no third party, married life just got "too hard" for my former daughter in law....My son, has had constant contact with his children, even now, that he has moved to a diferent state to which they live....after visiting his children and knowing that he will not see them again for maybe another 6 months, my son is absolutely devastated, and I try to console him with my own experience, that his kids are happy, and getting on with their life, the same way, as they adapt to their time with him.....kids are very adaptable.

Thats not to say, that I wish my grandchildren were living in a two parent household, with both their mum and dad, living in a perfect family existence....not to say, that I too, would have loved to have lived in a normal family household....but as we read more and more often, this is not a perfect world.....a husband and wife staying together unhappily does not make a perfect world either.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2007, 06:15:10 pm »
And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.

If you mean leaving a spouse, moving out of state and rarely seeing your children after that, I would agree with it.

But assuming both parents stay in their children's lives on a regular basis, I don't think a blanket statement about that being harmful to the children or irresponsible of the parent is appropriate. Kids may do much better with a happy single parent (or happy remarried parent) than they would with unhappy parents who live together. Furthermore, while parents do bear responsibility for their children, I don't think that necessarily extends to living their own lives unhappily for decades, for the benefit of children who might wind up just fine in any case.

There are all kinds of families, all kinds of marriages, all kinds of children. Believe me, I can think of several families in which the children were unquestionably better off because their parents split up. Divorce isn't a happy occasion for anybody, but ultimately it can be the right choice.

Offline nagsheadsea412

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 01:44:39 pm »
Cheating is pretty par for the course when divorce is one out of two in this age...no great surprise there.

Offline Monika

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 02:35:04 pm »
No, a divorce breaks up a family, and the childten lives suffer for it. If the stay parents focused on the children, so much more important than any adult issues, and make the best of it everone will benifit. You make a choice to  marry and a choice to have childten. And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.
I think it´s more damaging for children to live in family where it´s clear that the parents don´t love each other. And children can tell, you bet.
Divorce does not mean that you are abondoning your children. Sometimes divorce is the most responsable thing to do.

And it´s not always a choice to marry and have children. If you are raised to believe you don´t have any other option, then it really isn´t a choice at all.

Offline Monika

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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2009, 02:43:34 pm »
When it comes to Ennis and Jack I have no problem to call it cheating. They are both cheating on their wives, there's no way around it. And I think it's an important part of the story not to sugarcoat it. Both Annie, and perhaps Ang in particular, wanted to show us what happens when society forces people into playing roles, and to show how that impacts not only on Ennis and Jack, but also their families.
That´s why I think it´s important to recognise it for what it is and that it indeed is damaging to everyone involved.



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Re: a girl with an opinon
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 02:07:38 am »
We miss you, iluvchocolate! Get your scrawny A back to BetterMost!!

Ohh she's still here...well she walks by the computer once in a while..sorry thats as close as shes gonna get! ;)
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