Author Topic: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)  (Read 19655 times)

injest

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Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« on: July 01, 2008, 12:09:08 am »
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jqLie6-Y0&feature=related[/youtube]

so do you agree with the jury or do you think Horn committed a crime?

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 08:30:57 am »
Damn.  That was chilling.  I don't think he should have shot his gun. It wasn't his property and he was acting as a vigilantly.  The cop said dont shoot anybody and the guy ignored his warning.  I wouldnt want someone's blood shed over my property if they broke in unless it was one of us in here protecting ourselves.  Shit they would not have got passed my dog!
Were thes guys armed?  Did he shoot them in the back? 

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 08:51:03 am »
Because I'm at work, I'm answering without playing the video and basing my response on what I read about the case in this morning's Metro newspaper, which, admittedly, wasn't much.

With those caveats, I think it was a mistake not to indict him. I'm not against people using force to defend their homes, families, and property, but this wasn't his home, family, or property.

According to the newspaper story, he actually told the 911 dispatcher that he was going to kill the alleged burglars.

Were thes guys armed?  Did he shoot them in the back? 

The paper doesn't say whether they were armed, but it does say that he shot them both in the back.

The brief story in the paper makes him sound like somebody who was just itchin' for an opportunity to shoot somebody. He should have stopped at making the 911 call, or perhaps at most firing warning shots to try to hold the burglars for the police. I think he should have been indicted and tried for something like voluntary manslaughter, if Texas has that category of a crime.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 08:53:31 am »
he did sound all blustery before he went out there....

and terrified when he came back in.

I think he was a victim of the 'I got a gun so I am all tough' syndrome...and never stopped to think how it would really feel to actually SHOOT someone. thinking about it and doing it are two really really big things...

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 10:06:24 am »
Mr Horn is my hero! He took the "castle doctrine" seriously and applied it in a logical manner. The fact is the authorities can no longer protect property in most cities, this has become esp true in TX with the plague of drug crime coming in with illegal aliens and their organized gangs. Whole neighborhood associations are now forced to purchase the services of private security guards who are licensed to carry and shoot. I would be delighted to live next to Mr Horn, I would in fact provide him with all of the shot gun shells his trigger finger needs, and all the coffee he needs to stay awake and watch my property.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 07:59:38 pm »
Mr Horn is my hero! He took the "castle doctrine" seriously and applied it in a logical manner. The fact is the authorities can no longer protect property in most cities, this has become esp true in TX with the plague of drug crime coming in with illegal aliens and their organized gangs. Whole neighborhood associations are now forced to purchase the services of private security guards who are licensed to carry and shoot. I would be delighted to live next to Mr Horn, I would in fact provide him with all of the shot gun shells his trigger finger needs, and all the coffee he needs to stay awake and watch my property.

Had he been protecting his own home, I might be inclined to look more kindly on what Mr. Horn did.  But as was said, it wasn't his home, it wasn't his property, they were not threatening him in his home and he could have easily just described them to the 911 operator, the car they had, the direction they were going and the cops would have picked them up a few minutes later.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 11:21:25 pm »
Had he been protecting his own home, I might be inclined to look more kindly on what Mr. Horn did.  But as was said, it wasn't his home, it wasn't his property, they were not threatening him in his home and he could have easily just described them to the 911 operator, the car they had, the direction they were going and the cops would have picked them up a few minutes later.


and they would have been released as quickly as an "ACLU" lawyer could arrive to claim that they are victims. As it is, they won't threaten anyone again. And that is the point, if the authorities and the legal system can't protect our homes, our families, our lives, then we must do so. The chaos that is engulfing many of the cities, simply can't continue, eventually people take charge of their own destinies, they don't just cower waiting for the cops to come by and maybe fix the problem temporarily, the problem eventually gets fixed by outraged people, like Mr Horn.

Bravo Mr. Horn! I hope that the prosecutor who attempted to prosecute Mr Horn is fired!

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 11:35:23 pm »
Do you think he knew they were illegals? I want my property guarded. I have dogs and I have a gun. I couldn't use a gun on someone who was running away. If someone was coming toward me -- and I'm threatened -- I can't say. Shooting in the air or toward someone -- maybe create a bluff. Burglary is not punishable by death. The Texas law allows deadly force to protect property, if I understand correctly. Does the Castle Doctrine include a neighbor's property?
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 11:38:19 pm »
The guy was on the phone for quite a while before he took it into his own hands -- why did it take so long for law enforcement to be dispatched? Or is that a normal amount of time?
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 11:38:54 pm »
and they would have been released as quickly as an "ACLU" lawyer could arrive to claim that they are victims. As it is, they won't threaten anyone again. And that is the point, if the authorities and the legal system can't protect our homes, our families, our lives, then we must do so. The chaos that is engulfing many of the cities, simply can't continue, eventually people take charge of their own destinies, they don't just cower waiting for the cops to come by and maybe fix the problem temporarily, the problem eventually gets fixed by outraged people, like Mr Horn.

Bravo Mr. Horn! I hope that the prosecutor who attempted to prosecute Mr Horn is fired!

Plenty of Mexican nationals are arrested for crimes every day.  And they either do prison time or they get shipped back over the border.  No, despite urban legends to the contrary, the ACLU doesn't rush in to the rescue all of them  ::)

injest

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 11:45:28 pm »
Do you think he knew they were illegals? I want my property guarded. I have dogs and I have a gun. I couldn't use a gun on someone who was running away. If someone was coming toward me -- and I'm threatened -- I can't say. Shooting in the air or toward someone -- maybe create a bluff. Burglary is not punishable by death. The Texas law allows deadly force to protect property, if I understand correctly. Does the Castle Doctrine include a neighbor's property?

apparently yes,

and here is the thing for me. There is no way to know how you are going to react in the situation. I do not think Mr Horn should have gone outside but I DO understand why he did.

Faced with two people, your adrenalin at overload, scared, excited....how do you know what you can or would do? Did he realize they were running IN THAT MOMENT? I dont' know. But I would guess his instincts took over..the ol fight or flight thing...and he had a gun.

I think he regrets it now on an emotional level...and justifies it in his mind...

I would not trade places with him because no matter how you feel about what he did, no one with a conscience and feeling can kill without being scarred by it. Even police that are trained and know that at some time they may have to, are torn up about it afterwards.

I remember when D killed his first deer....he was excited and pleased....then cried himself to sleep that night because he regretted it. He hunts now but I know he hunts with feeling and responsibility...he never sees it as a game..

I can't imagine killing a person...I would hope if it came down to it and I HAD to...I would be strong enough to do it.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2008, 11:48:11 pm »
When someone enters your home to steal you, most likely they wiil also harm you physically, so why not get rid of them permanently ?

They had stolen him !

Another case in point I told you about, a bussiness man near here, his home was broken  by burglars, but when he escaped, the burglars caught him and knifed him !! So, why wait : kill the bastards robbing you !!

Right ? But you can not in Canada, you have to lick the ass of criminals !!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2008, 11:54:33 pm »
Do you think he knew they were illegals? I want my property guarded. I have dogs and I have a gun. I couldn't use a gun on someone who was running away. If someone was coming toward me -- and I'm threatened -- I can't say. Shooting in the air or toward someone -- maybe create a bluff. Burglary is not punishable by death. The Texas law allows deadly force to protect property, if I understand correctly. Does the Castle Doctrine include a neighbor's property?

there is no way Horn could have known anthing about the immigration status of the perps. They were removing items from his neighbor's home, and making a great big noise doing it! they seem to have no fear of the authorities, and that is the problem. Horn felt that he had to take action to protect his property and the neighborhood.

according to Horn, and this was borne out during grand jury testimony, during their carting away of the stolen merchandise, the perps were crossing over Horn's fence  and stepped onto Horn's property in order to get back to their getaway van, Horn shouted at them they saw him and charged him, he shot at them and missed, the perps then ran from him and he shot them dead thru their backs. all of this action was recorded on the 911 tapes. I listened to the tape which was played on the radio. At first before the shootings,  the 911 operator tried to talk Horn out of leaving his house, going into the yard and confronting the perps. Horn ignored the operator and fired at the perps. The 911 operator was then successful in talking Horn back into the house, and putting away the gun, as Pasadena police were arriving on the scene, and the operator convinced Horn that he might accidentally get into a gun fight with the police.

To my understanding, Horn's actions are perfectly consistent with the intent of the TX Legislature when the "Castle Doctrine" was passed and later signed into law by Gov Perry. Horn himself was familiar with the law as he discussed it with the 911 operator. Horn felt that his property was threatened by the gang of perps stealing from his neighbors house.

I think that this is the consequence of an inadequate legal and police system which can't keep pace with the drug related crime which is spilling over the border and also came over into the Houston area following the influx of Katrina refugees in 2005. Houston has been esp hard hit with violent crime, and people like Mr Horn are justifiably upset.

On a personal note, Dusty's house was broken into while we were out in N Mexico over New Years. Items were stolen, and more importantly to him someone let his horses out of their barn and one of his horses was injured. The county authorities tell us that it was probably a gang that is made up of illegals from Durango, Mexico. The situation is almost out of control in some areas. We were able to replace, or repair items  and more importantly treat the horse, but after that I no longer have compunctions about using a handgun if my house if broken into.

injest

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2008, 11:59:55 pm »
yes when the authorities ignore the will of the people and they feel helpless...they will strike back.

Illegal immigration is getting out of hand down here....and over and over we have told our officials that we want something done...they dont' ignore it...they try to tell us we are in the wrong.

*Jess shaking head*

I blame the authorities....if they did their jobs this kind of thing would not be happening. And it is fixing to get worse. Things are reaching critical mass.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 12:04:26 am »
Burglars are not only there to steal, since they will aslo murder you given the chance to do so !!


When I lived many years in Los Angeles, I was in safe areas, wealthy, friendly, etc.; but last time, an old lady was robbed and the detective told us to leave 20 and 50$ bills around to sastify robbers; so, that was it for me: never again will I go to LA for kising buts not only of criminasl but of so-call cops !!

And that was becoming often cases !! Why accept such criminals; shoot them before they shoot you. Some of my friends are dead because of those bastards too lazy to work !!

What happened to Sal Mineo who is now dead but his robber murdered him and is now out and safe !! That bastard needs to be in jail for life ! What do you think ?

injest

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2008, 12:09:53 am »
FYI

Mr Horn will be on GMA in the morning if anyone wants to catch it...

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2008, 12:10:03 am »
And the border patrol agents get no respect. They are sent to prison if they shoot someone who is breaking the law and who won't heed what they say. And the illegal who ran over and killed one of the U.S. agents who was trying to stop him was released from a Mexican prison recently. Why can't states send the National Guard to work the borders?
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2008, 12:13:24 am »
And the border patrol agents get no respect. They are sent to prison if they shoot someone who is breaking the law and who won't heed what they say. And the illegal who ran over and killed one of the U.S. agents who was trying to stop him was released from a Mexican prison recently. Why can't states send the National Guard to work the borders?

this is a part of the problem, the border patrol is constantly second guessed by other authorities. the border patrol wishes to do its job, but can't. the only solution is to finish building the border fence, and for the gov to enforce fines and prison time on employers who hire illegals.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2008, 12:13:34 am »
That critical mass, as you say Jess is everywhere I went in the USA and Canada too !!

In Toronto, Canada, I was in a wealthy area in a restaurant and when a muslim (man in long white robe) hit someone over the head with a beer bottle, the cops came, and they asked him his name and he said Mohammed, and they did not demand any papers and they left him free, even of that one harmed was bleeding and could be dead now !!

So, I said to myself, that was the last time I will go to Toronto to lick a foreigners ass and so-called cops in a so-called civil city !

There, be it known now foreign criminals now fired bullets and murder anyone and anywhere in Toronto streets, cafes, etc, popular it is now and no one if found by policemen or if so, not guilty !

Is that a civil country Canada ? No ! It is becoming otherwise ! What do you say to that everyone ?

Where are our laws ? WE have barely any left  in USA and Canada !!

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 12:48:11 am »
FYI

Mr Horn will be on GMA in the morning if anyone wants to catch it...

Thanks. I'd like to see that interview.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 09:08:20 am »
and they would have been released as quickly as an "ACLU" lawyer could arrive to claim that they are victims. As it is, they won't threaten anyone again. And that is the point, if the authorities and the legal system can't protect our homes, our families, our lives, then we must do so. The chaos that is engulfing many of the cities, simply can't continue, eventually people take charge of their own destinies, they don't just cower waiting for the cops to come by and maybe fix the problem temporarily, the problem eventually gets fixed by outraged people, like Mr Horn.

Bravo Mr. Horn! I hope that the prosecutor who attempted to prosecute Mr Horn is fired!

This is called vigilantism, and it's a prescription that will only make the situation worse, not fix it.

The answer is to fix the problems with the legal and law enforcement systems, not to turn every yahoo on the block into a gunslinger.

According to Horn, and this was borne out during grand jury testimony, during their carting away of the stolen merchandise, the perps were crossing over Horn's fence  and stepped onto Horn's property in order to get back to their getaway van, Horn shouted at them they saw him and charged him, he shot at them and missed, the perps then ran from him and he shot them dead thru their backs.

There's the situation in a nutshell. He shot at them and missed, they ran--and then he shot them dead through their backs as they were running away from him.

This is outrageous. It has nothing to do with a citizen's right to protect his life, his family, and his property. Horn should have stopped shooting when they turned and ran. He should not have shot again, and getting carried away by the situation is no excuse.

He should have been indicted for manslaughter. Let him be acquited at trial by a jury of his peers, if they agree that the situation in Pasadena, Texas, is so bad that his actions were warranted--that's fine, I have no problem with that, that's the American way.

But for society to tacitly approve his actions by not even calling him to give an account of himself, after he killed two people, is outrageous.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 09:25:36 am »
Isn't   vigilantism    needed at times to defend yourself ?

As self-defence ?


Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 09:27:08 am »
They were two burglars ! Why two, one was enough !! ??

They would have murdered the decent honest citizens !

Are burglars honest ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 09:32:09 am »
Why give in to burglars and murderers ?

Burglars steal not only your lifetime of savings, but also your life in many ways, and they remain alive while you are dead !

Why should Sal Mineo be dead, and his murderer who was stealing him be alive to-day and free ?

Sal can not talk nor do movies as he pleases now being dead, but that burglar bastard does what he wants still to-day in society since he is out of prison !

I can not talk nor see Sal anymore, but his murderer can talk and see and do what he wants !! Isn't that unfair ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 12:50:08 pm »
This is called vigilantism

I believe what Mr. Horn did is called exercising his rights to protect himself and his property under current TX law. If you do not approve of the Castle Doctrine, then work to prevent its consideration or passage within your own home state, however here in TX the law is popular and probably will stand any further challenges.

And I would add that if law enforcement, border control, and the legal system in general were working as originally intended, then there would be no need for citizens like Mr. Horn to shoot those who are plaguing his neighborhood, and then use the doctrine as justification.

And if you wish to fight against "vigilantism", perhaps you might want to start with the vigilante drug dealers and their foot soldiers in our major cities dispensing their own swift justice against their business competitors. Those actions are usually called "drive by's"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 01:46:03 pm »
I believe what Mr. Horn did is called exercising his rights to protect himself and his property under current TX law. If you do not approve of the Castle Doctrine, then work to prevent its consideration or passage within your own home state, however here in TX the law is popular and probably will stand any further challenges.

And I call what Mr. Horn did, shooting two people in the back as they were running away from him, manslaughter. I don't dispute his right to protect himself, his family, or his property. But shooting two people in the back as they flee from you is not protecting anything. It's homicide. If this is what Texans, or a Texas grand jury, considers justice, I'm glad I live in Pennsylvania. The "protecting" ended when they started to run after his first shot.

Quote
And I would add that if law enforcement, border control, and the legal system in general were working as originally intended, then there would be no need for citizens like Mr. Horn to shoot those who are plaguing his neighborhood, and then use the doctrine as justification.

You'll get no argument from me about that.

Quote
And if you wish to fight against "vigilantism", perhaps you might want to start with the vigilante drug dealers and their foot soldiers in our major cities dispensing their own swift justice against their business competitors. Those actions are usually called "drive by's"

And this example of criminal activity has exactly what to do with the Horn case? Drug dealers shooting each other are not vigilantes. They are criminals shooting other criminals. Unfortunately they sometimes miss and hit innocent bystanders.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2008, 02:02:37 pm »
And I call what Mr. Horn did, shooting two people in the back as they were running away from him, manslaughter.


We are obviously going to disagree on Mr Horn's actions. I have to put myself in his place, after they charged him and they started running away after he shot and missed, what was to stop them from going to their van getting a gun and returning to Mr Horn's house, breaking in then or later and killing him? Horn used reasonable force against criminals who should not have been in this country in the first place.

My reference to the drive by shootings among drug dealer entrepreneurs is just to illustrate that "vigilantism" is in the eye of the beholder, the drug dealers just might consider themselves heroic vigilantes defending their turf against business rivals. I see that type of "vigilantism" as one of the problems that has turned cities into smarm pits, and lead to laws such as the Castle Doctine and people like Horn shooting down criminals as they are fleeing him.

But, then the "well meaning" left never seems to fathom the consequences of their criminal coddling programs. Early release from prison anyone? Why then would it surprise me that there is shock over Mr Horn defending his neighborhood, but lots of yawns when an explanation is given as to the reasons why such laws as the Castle Doctrine are passed?

Offline Shasta542

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 02:12:24 pm »
To paraphrase a couple of lines from "The Untouchables".

I do not approve of your methods!
Yeah, well... You're not from Texas.


Texas is a whole different world from a lot of the nation.

From comic Ron White:

In Texas we have the death penalty, and WE USE IT!
Other state's are trying to abolish the death penalty... mine's putting in an express lane.
If you come to Texas and kill someone, we'll kill you back!


I don't know what the crime rate is in Texas, but if you're a criminal, I think it'd be better to be a criminal somewhere else.

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

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Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 02:35:34 pm »
Canada, England, France, others, including all of the USA, need such express lanes to be done now since murderers murder usually more than once, and many get away with it !

When they murdered a second time, then why now have a quick army juror, and shot immediately afterwards those bastards who are too lazy to get along in humanity !

I think that others states and countries should be like Texas and make those express lines soonest !!


What do you think ?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2008, 03:27:52 pm »
We are obviously going to disagree on Mr Horn's actions. I have to put myself in his place, after they charged him and they started running away after he shot and missed, what was to stop them from going to their van getting a gun and returning to Mr Horn's house, breaking in then or later and killing him? Horn used reasonable force against criminals who should not have been in this country in the first place.

Only beyond a point--and that point is when they turned their backs and started running. If he'd blown their freakin' heads off with his first shot, I would have had no problem with that. My problem with Mr. Horn is that, as I see it, he didn't know when to quit. You don't go after people because they might come back after you. You wait until they come back after you. Then you take care of them.

Quote
My reference to the drive by shootings among drug dealer entrepreneurs is just to illustrate that "vigilantism" is in the eye of the beholder, the drug dealers just might consider themselves heroic vigilantes defending their turf against business rivals. I see that type of "vigilantism" as one of the problems that has turned cities into smarm pits, and lead to laws such as the Castle Doctine and people like Horn shooting down criminals as they are fleeing him.

Well, who gives two shakes how criminals justify themselves to themselves? The only thing that bothers me about criminals shooting at each other is when they miss and hit bystanders.

Quote
But, then the "well meaning" left never seems to fathom the consequences of their criminal coddling programs. Early release from prison anyone? Why then would it surprise me that there is shock over Mr Horn defending his neighborhood, but lots of yawns when an explanation is given as to the reasons why such laws as the Castle Doctrine are passed?

That has nothing to do with the Horn case, either. I'm not shocked at Mr. Horn defending his neighborhood, either. I'm just shocked by the hooligans who find it acceptable to shoot people in the back and kill them after you've already succeeded in scaring them off.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 08:05:43 pm »
And I call what Mr. Horn did, shooting two people in the back as they were running away from him, manslaughter. I don't dispute his right to protect himself, his family, or his property. But shooting two people in the back as they flee from you is not protecting anything. It's homicide. If this is what Texans, or a Texas grand jury, considers justice, I'm glad I live in Pennsylvania. The "protecting" ended when they started to run after his first shot.
You'll get no argument from me about that.

And this example of criminal activity has exactly what to do with the Horn case? Drug dealers shooting each other are not vigilantes. They are criminals shooting other criminals. Unfortunately they sometimes miss and hit innocent bystanders.

did you see the interview this morning? He said that the men started toward him and as he shot the first time guy turned....the 911 tape shows there wasn't but seconds between the first and second shots...and I think (as I said earlier) andrenilin took over..I doubt he was thinking clearly at that moment.

a sad situation all around.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 09:54:28 pm »
You don't go after people because they might come back after you. You wait until they come back after you. Then you take care of them.

you might wish to rephrase your line above to read : "I don't go after people because they might come back after me. I wait until they come back after me. Then I take care of them. "

many of the rest of us are not going to quietly queue in front of the cattle cars to be shoved inside and taken to the "work camps in the East". when there is a demonstrable threat it makes sense to me to take immediate steps to eliminate that threat before "it comes back after me"

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 09:59:17 pm »
To paraphrase a couple of lines from "The Untouchables".

I do not approve of your methods!
Yeah, well... You're not from Texas.


Texas is a whole different world from a lot of the nation.

From comic Ron White:

In Texas we have the death penalty, and WE USE IT!
Other state's are trying to abolish the death penalty... mine's putting in an express lane.
If you come to Texas and kill someone, we'll kill you back!


I don't know what the crime rate is in Texas, but if you're a criminal, I think it'd be better to be a criminal somewhere else.



"Texas is a whole different world from a lot of the nation"

That is absolutely true, much truer than most people understand. Until outsiders have lived here for several years, and compared notes with their experiences in other states and regions, they don't fully appreciate that "Texas can on occasion be a whole different universe".

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2008, 10:02:25 pm »
did you see the interview this morning? He said that the men started toward him and as he shot the first time guy turned....the 911 tape shows there wasn't but seconds between the first and second shots...and I think (as I said earlier) andrenilin took over..I doubt he was thinking clearly at that moment.

a sad situation all around.

No, I have not seen any interviews.

I'm sure you're right about adrenaline taking over, and I doubt he was thinking clearly, and it is, indeed, a sad situation. Horn's going to have to live with it the rest of his life.

Which, now that I think on it, also suggests to me that there may have been some psychological value for him in standing up and court accounting for his actions.

And possibly the grand jury proceedings did that. I have to admit I'm not familiar with proceedings like that in Texas. Pennsylvania doesn't use grand juries any more. Judges decide whether there is enough evidence to charge someone with a crime.

Nevertheless, I will have to disagree with some folks around here. In my book, Horn is no hero. And, far from being fired, the prosecutor who wanted to charge him should get a medal for upholding standards of justice.  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2008, 10:04:47 pm »
"Texas can on occasion be a whole different universe."

 :o

A universe that produces some great ladies, though: Anne Richards, Molly Ivins, and our own Jess, o'course.  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2008, 10:20:10 pm »
:o

A universe that produces some great ladies, though: Anne Richards, Molly Ivins, and our own Jess, o'course.  ;)


awwww!!  :-* :-*

You are SUCH a gentleman...

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2008, 10:23:40 pm »
They were shot IN THE BACK? >:(

I don't know how it works in Texas (well I guess I do now) but in Indiana, if I'm not mistaken, when someone is shot in the back it is automatically considered manslaughter, if not murder. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, such as shooting someone in the back as they are charging towards another person, but failing situations such as those, this is generally how it works in my state. Shooting people in the back is a big no no around here.

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injest

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2008, 10:26:05 pm »
They were shot IN THE BACK? >:(

I don't know how it works in Texas (well I guess I do now) but in Indiana, if I'm not mistaken, when someone is shot in the back it is automatically considered manslaughter, if not murder. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, such as shooting someone in the back as they are charging towards another person, but failing situations such as those, this is generally how it works in my state. Shooting people in the back is a big no no around here.



he said the bullet entered under the arm and a little behind...

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2008, 10:43:15 pm »
you might wish to rephrase your line above to read : "I don't go after people because they might come back after me. I wait until they come back after me. Then I take care of them. "

many of the rest of us are not going to quietly queue in front of the cattle cars to be shoved inside and taken to the "work camps in the East". when there is a demonstrable threat it makes sense to me to take immediate steps to eliminate that threat before "it comes back after me"

I see no need to rephrase anything. I'm not the one making irrelevant analogies.

And speaking of analogies, now who's bringing up the Nazis?  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2008, 10:44:39 pm »
When those criminals went after him, he was thinking clearly that he had to shoot the bastards before they would murdered him !!

Anyone thinks that those criminals from so far away, would have kissed that peaceful citizen's ass ? No, they were there to rob and murder him !

He did right to kill them both !!


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2008, 10:45:26 pm »
Texas is a universe that produces some great ladies, though: Anne Richards, Molly Ivins, and our own Jess, o'course.  ;)


awwww!!  :-* :-*

You are SUCH a gentleman...

 :-*  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2008, 10:53:43 pm »
When those criminals went after him, he was thinking clearly that he had to shoot the bastards before they would murdered him !!

Anyone thinks that those criminals from so far away, would have kissed that peaceful citizen's ass ? No, they were there to rob and murder him !

He did right to kill them both !!



I'm of the opinion, based upon listening to Horn's conversation on the 911 tape, that he was thinking clearly, but he was not in a panic or filled with "blood rage", he realized what he had to do to protect himself and his home.

Under existing TX  law Horn did not deserve to be truebilled, and the DA should have known that. This is why the Harris Co prosecutorial team needs to be weeded out and the incompetents fired ASAP, essentially the DA and his prosecutors wasted the tax payers money be trying to get the Grand Jury to indict. Anyone in the legal system knows that usually a prosecutor can get a Grand Jury to indict just about anyone, look at the fiasco created by that out of control prosector in NC after getting a supine grand jury to indict the Duke Lacrosse players on a paper thin case. So, this grand jury coming back with a no bill is a hard slap in the face of an incompetent prosecutorial team who need to be all fired.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2008, 11:10:02 pm »
I don't agree with it. Shooting people in the back is WRONG. His life was not in immediate danger when those shots were fired. His property perhaps, but NOT his life. Like I said earlier, the only time something like this could be justified would be (for example), a burglar is rushing at me with a knife, and my roommate, friend, family member etc, fired the gun and shot him in the back to protect me and keep me from being killed. Shooting people in the back when life is not being immediately threatened is wrong wrong wrong.

I know I'll be torched for saying this, but I'm going to do it anyway. This is the reason I think guns should be illegal in this country. Too many trigger happy people... "Shoot now and ask questions later". That sort of attitude doesn't wash with me. Sorry. I have never agreed with it, I don't agree with it now, and I doubt I ever will.

As you can probably tell, I am NOT from Texas!  ;)  :laugh:
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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2008, 11:11:34 pm »
I don't agree with it. I doubt I ever will. Shooting people in the back is WRONG. His life was not in immediate danger when those shots were fired. His property perhaps, but NOT his life. Like I said earlier, the only time something like this could be justified would be (for example), a burglar is rushing at me with a knife, and my roommate, friend, family member etc, fired the gun and shot him in the back to protect me and keep me from being killed. Shooting people in the back when life is not being immediately threatened is wrong wrong wrong.

I know I'll be torched for saying this, but I'm going to do it anyway. This is the reason I think guns should be illegal in this country. Too many trigger happy people... "Shoot now and ask questions later". That sort of attitude doesn't wash with me. Sorry. I have never agreed with it, I don't agree with it now, and I doubt I ever will.

As you can probably tell, I am NOT from Texas!  ;)  :laugh:

true...a few nuts make all gun owners seem bad... :-\

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2008, 09:18:43 am »
true...a few nuts make all gun owners seem bad... :-\

Isn't that always the case? One or two or so bad apples can spoil anything for everyone else?  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2008, 09:25:40 am »
But we let readily bad apples ruin all the goods ones, in our systems to-day !

Those two needed to be taken out of their misery !

Decent persons need to live in peace !

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2008, 11:02:35 am »
Why should he have let himself be murdered by those two gangsters ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2008, 03:54:36 pm »
obviously Mr Horn was in the right to stop the invasion on his property. perhaps we should be asking another question:

since the perps in that isolated property invasion were illegal immigrants from Colombia, why can't we stop that larger illegal INVASION and thereby reduce the threats to people like Mr Horn?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2008, 03:59:34 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

May I agree totally with you !

Somehow, too many criminals from foreing lands pass and are let in... into the United States, Canada, England, France, unfortunately !

But we do not deport such murderers fast enough ?? May I ask... therefore !

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2008, 04:02:39 pm »
I agree on the deportation issue. I also think that employers who hire illegals should themselves spend time in prison - that will end the influx almost immediately.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Grand Jury Declines to Charge Horn (Houston Break in Case)
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2008, 08:53:01 pm »
I totally agree with prison for those who hired such illegals, brokeplex !