Author Topic: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace  (Read 8610 times)

Offline Ellemeno

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The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« on: July 05, 2008, 03:29:35 pm »
There has got to be a thread to put this in, and everyone else here probably thought of this two years ago, but it just came to me, I think for the first time, that the shirts hanging together are like an eternal Dozy Embrace.  It was my first big BBM realization in a long, long time.  Go ahead and tell me you realized it ages ago....

:)


Also, go ahead and move this to an appropriate thread, but let me know where, by PM, iffen you could.

:-*

Offline BlissC

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 03:56:30 pm »
Go ahead and tell me you realized it ages ago....

Well I realised it about 20 seconds ago when I read the title of your thread.  :laugh:

Good observation - I think we'd all realised the significance of Ennis protecting Jack, the shirts being together and never parted, in the way that Jack and Ennis never could be, but I'd never thought about it in terms of the Dozy Embrace before.


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Offline Artiste

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 07:45:52 pm »
Merci elle !

Quite interesting is your thread !

Does it also note contrast ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 08:05:24 pm »
There has got to be a thread to put this in, and everyone else here probably thought of this two years ago, but it just came to me, I think for the first time, that the shirts hanging together are like an eternal Dozy Embrace.  It was my first big BBM realization in a long, long time.  Go ahead and tell me you realized it ages ago....

:)


Also, go ahead and move this to an appropriate thread, but let me know where, by PM, iffen you could.

:-*

I didn't realize this until now!  Very interesting, Elle!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 09:30:57 pm »

Heya Elle!

This is a great topic for a thread. 8)  Even if there is an old thread somewhere about this... it's probably good to start fresh once in a while.  And, off the top of my head, I honestly can't think of an old thread that focuses on this question alone anyway.


Yes, it's interesting to imagine the ritual that Ennis went through in order to extract his own shirt out from within Jack's blue shirt and then to re-weave Jack's shirt within his own.  It probably would have been quite a task... and obviously very emotional.  It's also interesting to try to imagine at which point Ennis would have thought to do this.

I also find it interesting to think about which two shirts these are.  They seem to be the shirt that Jack wore in TS1 and the shirt Ennis wore in TS2.  Ennis wears the shirt with the larger brown plaid squares in TS1 (an that's also the shirt we see Alma dealing with on the laundry line in the strong wind later at their lonesome old ranch when the girls are really small).  Ennis's shirt in the final, eternal pairing is also the shirt that we see Jack washing in the stream.





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Offline BlissC

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2008, 05:10:10 am »
It's interesting to note from the BBM script that Ennis only takes two shirts with him up onto Brokeback - when he gets out of the truck at the start of the film, the script says "no suitcase, just a grocery sack stuffed with his only other shirt..."  As you say Amanda, if the shirt Alma's washing at the ranch when the girls are small is the shirt Ennis wore in TS1, the one in the "eternal Dozy Embrace" would have to be the one from TS2.

That's also interesting though in the choice of shirts (one from TS1 and the other from TS2) in the "eternal Dozy Embrace" because whenever you read anything about the making of BBM, everyone involved always says that Ang Lee had things set up in very precise ways for a reason, and there was a comment in the Pierre Tremblay interview about even the wardrobe being chosen very specifically. I wonder if that extends to those particular two shirts?


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Offline brokeplex

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 04:23:11 pm »
There has got to be a thread to put this in, and everyone else here probably thought of this two years ago, but it just came to me, I think for the first time, that the shirts hanging together are like an eternal Dozy Embrace.  It was my first big BBM realization in a long, long time.  Go ahead and tell me you realized it ages ago....

:)


Also, go ahead and move this to an appropriate thread, but let me know where, by PM, iffen you could.

:-*

great topic and you are absolutely right. the twined shirts were Jack's way of trying to hold on in some substantial physical way to what he felt for Ennis. why did he leave then at OMT's house? what if Mama Twist went on a cleaning rampage and threw them out? 20 years hanging on a nail was a long, long time.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 04:32:26 pm »
Yep, just for concrete reference... the shirt that Jack takes is definitely the shirt that Ennis wears during the dozy embrace.  You can tell here by the bit sticking out from under Ennis's jacket sleeve.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/4882703-ba3.jpg" border="0" />



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Offline brokeplex

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2008, 09:00:58 pm »
Yep, just for concrete reference... the shirt that Jack takes is definitely the shirt that Ennis wears during the dozy embrace.  You can tell here by the bit sticking out from under Ennis's jacket sleeve.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/4882703-ba3.jpg" border="0" />




good point, I count only two shirts that Ennis had on the mountain. did anyone see that Jack had an extra shirt or pair of pants?

Offline Artiste

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2008, 10:22:13 pm »
Jack had a extra shirt or pair of pants ??  Were they yours you left behing brokeplex ??

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2008, 10:25:35 pm »
contrary to rumor I was too young to have been up on the mountain with the boys in 1963. Yes, today I have some gray hair, yes, I DEMAND a senior disount everywhere I shop, but in June of 1963 I was barely old enough to have started kindegarten.  ;D

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2008, 10:26:45 pm »
contrary to rumor I was too young to have been up on the mountain with the boys in 1963. Yes, today I have some gray hair, yes, I DEMAND a senior disount everywhere I shop, but in June of 1963 I was barely old enough to have started kindegarten.  ;D

hehe!!
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Offline Lynne

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2008, 10:57:11 pm »
What a great revelation, Elle.  I had never thought about it in just this way before.  A perpetual, everlasting, Dozy Embrace.  Thanks, Friend.

(and thanks to Amanda for digging up the screen cap showing Ennis' shirt sleeve!)
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Offline fernly

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2008, 12:27:48 am »
great topic and you are absolutely right. the twined shirts were Jack's way of trying to hold on in some substantial physical way to what he felt for Ennis. why did he leave then at OMT's house? what if Mama Twist went on a cleaning rampage and threw them out? 20 years hanging on a nail was a long, long time.

Sure is a great topic.

Far as Mrs. Twist...maybe what she said to Ennis, that she "kept his room like it was when he was a boy and I think he appreciated it" also, and most importantly, applies to her keeping the shirts safe.
I think she knew to at least some degree what they meant, whether Jack told her in so many words or not, and she was telling Ennis that she knew.
And after he found the shirts he would have understood what she meant.
He made sure that she knew what he'd taken from Jack's room, and believed that she'd give her blessing. All under the angry, and unknowing, stare of OMT.
The shirts would be safe in Lightning Flat. I can't see OMT being bothered to set foot in Jack's room.
I can't see the shirts being safe in Childress, where there was what looked like a lot of decorating (and the inevitable throwing out of 'these old things') that goes along with it.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2008, 12:42:40 am »

Yes, the more you watch the Lightning Flat scene the more it seems really clear that Ma Twist knows all about those shirts.  When Ennis comes downstairs holding the balled up shirts she even nods at him in a sort of knowing way.  And, before he goes upstairs, the little push on Ennis's shoulder and her verbal encouragement to Ennis about going to Jack's room seems very purposeful.  Yep, I think she's really, truly hoping that Ennis will find the shirts.  And, I think it's her way of trying to make Ennis feel better about OMT's revelation about the "other fellow."  I think that helping to prod Ennis along to find the shirts is Ma Twist's silent way of trying to tell Ennis that he was Jack's one true love (regardless of what OMT said).

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Offline mariez

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2008, 12:52:03 pm »
Ooooh, this is a great topic!

I agree that Ma Twist not only knew about the shirts, and did indeed understand their significance, but that she wanted Ennis to find and keep them.  I read the ss before I saw the movie, so I knew what was coming when Ennis went up to that room (although that didn't diminish the intensity and heartbreak of the revelation one bit). 

But what I wasn't prepared for was the very end, when we see that Ennis has reversed the shirts and that he is now protecting Jack, holding him forever in the very dozy embrace that Jack craved so badly to be repeated during his life   :'( 

And don't we have Heath to thank for that?  Didn't I read somewhere that it was his idea to reverse the shirts? 

Marie
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Offline brokeplex

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2008, 01:06:09 pm »
Sure is a great topic.

Far as Mrs. Twist...maybe what she said to Ennis, that she "kept his room like it was when he was a boy and I think he appreciated it" also, and most importantly, applies to her keeping the shirts safe.
I think she knew to at least some degree what they meant, whether Jack told her in so many words or not, and she was telling Ennis that she knew.
And after he found the shirts he would have understood what she meant.
He made sure that she knew what he'd taken from Jack's room, and believed that she'd give her blessing. All under the angry, and unknowing, stare of OMT.
The shirts would be safe in Lightning Flat. I can't see OMT being bothered to set foot in Jack's room.
I can't see the shirts being safe in Childress, where there was what looked like a lot of decorating (and the inevitable throwing out of 'these old things') that goes along with it.

youv'e made some very good points. I agree, I think that Mama Twist was implying that she knew the "meaning of the shirts" and assented to Ennis's inheritance. But if she knew their meaning, why leave them on the nail in the inner closet? Farm women are very practical, she had to know that the shirts would last much longer as a legacy if they were placed in a cedar chest with some moth balls on them. Hanging on that nail would have caused the fabrics to deteriorate over the decades, esp since they were probably never washed.

I agree that if Jack had hung the shirts in any closet in Childress, they would have been tossed by Lureen or a maid within 5 years. But, given the importance Jack gave to the shirts, why didn't he buy a lock box to put them in and hide them somewhere? Again that would preserve the shirts and make them available to Jack for remembrance year round.

Did Jack leave a note detailing his legacies? He did state somewher that he wanted to be cremated and the ashes tossed on Brokeback, wouldn't he also have left some letter to Ennis? And maybe Lureen knew of his final testament and didn't want to tell Ennis. I remember her words, when she instructed Ennis to carry out Jacks wishes, she used the phrase : "I mean about the ashes". In my paranoid mind, I see her hiding a legacy Jack had for Ennis.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2008, 01:35:24 pm »

And don't we have Heath to thank for that?  Didn't I read somewhere that it was his idea to reverse the shirts? 

Marie


You're correct. It was talked about back in 2006, when BBM came out. And Diana Ossana repeated the fact in her wonderful tribute to Heath in the March, 11th issue of The Advocate:


Quote by Diana Ossana, from The Advocate:

HEATH WAS AN OLD SOUL in a young man's frame, extremely masculine, extremely competent in all things, and yet sensitive beyond belief. In person Heath was animated and kinetic and full of life, far different from the character he portrayed in Brokeback Mountain. He was always disheveled, unconcerned with his appearance, because--like my writing partner, Larry McMurtry--Heath lived in his head. Heath was a pure actor, much like Larry is a pure writer, and I was moved by the similarities between these two seemingly very different men.


One of my most endearing memories of working with Heath on set was the day we filmed the final scene in Brokeback. Before the first take, Heath walked over to me, a big smile on his face, and said, "I think you're going to like what I've done with this scene." Then he headed inside that bleak little trailer house, and the cameras rolled. I watched the monitor as Ennis opened his tiny closet door and revealed the two shirts he had found hidden inside Jack's childhood bedroom, like skins, one inside the other ... and realized that Heath, as Ennis, had chosen to reverse the order of those shirts, with his on the outside, embracing Jack's. Such was Heath's commitment to the truth of our story and to the rawness and depth of his portrayal. Afterward our grizzled and thoroughly macho first assistant director marched over to me, bent down, and whispered in my ear, "Diana, I've worked in this business 50 years. This is the first time an actor's brought a tear to my eye."

Heath was generous and dear, painfully shy and gifted, and I will miss him for the rest of my days.


---end of quote---


Myprivatejack posted scans of the article in the Heath Remembrance  Forum:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16718.msg351486.html#msg351486

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2008, 01:46:24 pm »
Did Jack leave a note detailing his legacies? He did state somewher that he wanted to be cremated and the ashes tossed on Brokeback, wouldn't he also have left some letter to Ennis? And maybe Lureen knew of his final testament and didn't want to tell Ennis. I remember her words, when she instructed Ennis to carry out Jacks wishes, she used the phrase : "I mean about the ashes". In my paranoid mind, I see her hiding a legacy Jack had for Ennis.

Well, since Jack was only 39 years old and clearly wasn't expecting to die--and Lureen controlled all the money--I suspect he hadn't done much more than mention casually, maybe even when he was under the influence of alcohol, that he wanted to be cremated and his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain. Lots of people are reluctant to do things like write wills and make other preparations for the Big Chill. Maybe Jack was one of them.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2008, 01:47:33 pm »
contrary to rumor I was too young to have been up on the mountain with the boys in 1963. Yes, today I have some gray hair, yes, I DEMAND a senior disount everywhere I shop, but in June of 1963 I was barely old enough to have started kindegarten.  ;D

You get your AARP card yet? I got mine in May.  ;D
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2008, 01:54:02 pm »
youv'e made some very good points. I agree, I think that Mama Twist was implying that she knew the "meaning of the shirts" and assented to Ennis's inheritance. But if she knew their meaning, why leave them on the nail in the inner closet? Farm women are very practical, she had to know that the shirts would last much longer as a legacy if they were placed in a cedar chest with some moth balls on them. Hanging on that nail would have caused the fabrics to deteriorate over the decades, esp since they were probably never washed.

I agree that if Jack had hung the shirts in any closet in Childress, they would have been tossed by Lureen or a maid within 5 years. But, given the importance Jack gave to the shirts, why didn't he buy a lock box to put them in and hide them somewhere? Again that would preserve the shirts and make them available to Jack for remembrance year round.

Did Jack leave a note detailing his legacies? He did state somewher that he wanted to be cremated and the ashes tossed on Brokeback, wouldn't he also have left some letter to Ennis? And maybe Lureen knew of his final testament and didn't want to tell Ennis. I remember her words, when she instructed Ennis to carry out Jacks wishes, she used the phrase : "I mean about the ashes". In my paranoid mind, I see her hiding a legacy Jack had for Ennis.

I think that's too far-fetched. Jack knew a possible letter he left to Ennis would go through Lureen's hands. Also we don't know if Jack had a testament at all. And even if he had one, it possibly might have concerned only business (monetary) issues.
He had told Lureen he wanted to be cremated and his ashes scattered on Brokeback:

"...He use to say he wanted his ahses scattered on Brokeback Mountain, but I wasn't sure where that was. [...]"

"Well, he said it was his favorite place. [...]"

Big difference to making a testament. My husband and I for example have talked about things like that from time to time. He knows I never would want to get cremated, but I don't have a will whatsoever.


As for Mrs. Twist:
I think Mrs. Twist simply did not touch them because she "kept his room like it was when he was a little boy". She did not touch anything, the room was like a relic to her even when Jack was still alive, and much more so after his passing.
Additionally, had she changed something with The Shirts while he was alive, he would have known that she knows about them. But Jack had hiddem them. They were not hanging among his other things in the closet, but hidden for a reason and she did not want to disturb this. She was simply tactful.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 04:29:02 pm »
I think that's too far-fetched. Jack knew a possible letter he left to Ennis would go through Lureen's hands. Also we don't know if Jack had a testament at all. And even if he had one, it possibly might have concerned only business (monetary) issues.
He had told Lureen he wanted to be cremated and his ashes scattered on Brokeback:

"...He use to say he wanted his ahses scattered on Brokeback Mountain, but I wasn't sure where that was. [...]"

"Well, he said it was his favorite place. [...]"

Big difference to making a testament. My husband and I for example have talked about things like that from time to time. He knows I never would want to get cremated, but I don't have a will whatsoever.


As for Mrs. Twist:
I think Mrs. Twist simply did not touch them because she "kept his room like it was when he was a little boy". She did not touch anything, the room was like a relic to her even when Jack was still alive, and much more so after his passing.
Additionally, had she changed something with The Shirts while he was alive, he would have known that she knows about them. But Jack had hiddem them. They were not hanging among his other things in the closet, but hidden for a reason and she did not want to disturb this. She was simply tactful.


I'm going to disagree, Jack could have put something in a safety deposit box, a memento, a letter, maybe some cash, something he wanted Ennis to have. sure, it would go thru Lureen, but maybe he took a chance and relied on Lureen's honesty.  its Lureen's choice of words that make me suspicious, her words to Ennis left hanging whether the disposition of the ashes was the only request that he had made while alive in regard to his estate.

Mrs Twist probably did not touch the shirts because she just didn't look inside the inner closet, or she touched them and returned them to the inner closet recognizing their significance, or she deliberately moved them to the inner closet from another location such as a drawer or a box, hoping that Ennis might find them, but not wishing to actively give them to him. Regardless, it is the most touching of the motifs in the film. Who could love this film and not be bowled over by the simple almost pathetic childlike gesture of a grown man keeping two shirts one inside the other as a love token to an impossible romance.  

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2008, 02:39:42 am »

Far as Mrs. Twist...maybe what she said to Ennis, that she "kept his room like it was when he was a boy and I think he appreciated it" also, and most importantly, applies to her keeping the shirts safe.


You know what?  I always assumed she meant since he was a little kid, but you're right, a nineteen year old is definitely a "boy" to his mom, especially twenty years later.  "I kept his room like it was when he was a boy" could totally mean "I left those shirts up there right where he put them."  Given the scene, it's barely even cryptic.




I can't see the shirts being safe in Childress, where there was what looked like a lot of decorating (and the inevitable throwing out of 'these old things') that goes along with it.


This brought to mind the blue parka scene.  Is that partly why that scene is in the movie at all, that looking for the parka in Childress is somehow connected to later realizing the shirts were kept safe in Lightning Flat?




Quote by Diana Ossana, from The Advocate:

Afterward our grizzled and thoroughly macho first assistant director marched over to me, bent down, and whispered in my ear, "Diana, I've worked in this business 50 years. This is the first time an actor's brought a tear to my eye."

---end of quote---


THANK YOU for re-posting the whole wonderful quote from Diana Ossana, Chrissi.  And on re-read, I just realized she is talking about Michael Hausman in the snippet above, the one who Pierre Tremblay raves about.  More and more I want to know more about him.








Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: The shirts and the Dozy Embrace
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2008, 11:27:35 am »

This brought to mind the blue parka scene.  Is that partly why that scene is in the movie at all, that looking for the parka in Childress is somehow connected to later realizing the shirts were kept safe in Lightning Flat?


Hi Elle,
I think this is a really interesting question.  I do think that the scene may indicate (retrospectively, once the viewer knows about the Lightning Flat double shirts) that Childress was not a safe space for the shirts or that in general, Jack was "lost" and not in his element in his Childress house.  But on the other hand, Lureen is so wrapped up in her own business that she clearly isn't paying much attention to where Jack puts his clothing... so in another way it could be argued that Lureen may not have ever really noticed if Jack were to hide the shirts someplace in the Texas house.

There are two really important ways that this scene functions, I think. One way is to simply further the metaphor of the "closet" which is so powerful in the film and of course becomes vital when we learn about Jack's Childress closet and which culminates as a theme in the final scene in the trailer.  And, the other is to further the theme of shirts and coatracks, which pervade the film (and are probably closely related to closets as a concept and in terms of potential metapor).

The blue parka scene shows Jack futilely opening, what appears to be an empty, closet... followed closely by the parallel scene of Ennis packing and digging in his crammed closet in Riverton.









The coatracks and other instances of paired shirts are particularly interesting I think.  We first see the coatrack in Aguirre's office near Jack at the beginning with one shirt.  And, then later when he returns the next summer Jack stands near that same coatrack, but this time it has at least two shirts/jackets on it.  And, later during the reunion sequence, the coatrack in Riverton is very prominently placed in the background of the encounter (between Jack and Ennis) when Jack and Alma meet each other.  Essentially, we're given lots of reasons to think about and notice, garments in closets or on racks throughout the film and in probably significant ways.









To me, all these prominent details of shirts, closets and coatracks almost feel like foreshadowing or clues leading up to the highly charged, emotional Lightning Flat/ end-trailer scenes.  In a way, all these instances of shirts and closets remind me of things like the black hats/ white hats and even the yin and yang symbols that seems to haunt both Jack and Ennis in different ways.







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