Author Topic: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him  (Read 14979 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« on: July 28, 2008, 12:01:40 pm »
Hey BetterMostians :),

another week coming around and here is another TOTW.


But first, a big thank you to everybody who participated in the TOTW questionnaire over the last two weeks!
 :-*
Your FB and ideas are very helpful.



This week I'd like to have a closer look at the fact that Ennis keeps rejecting people close to him, people who love him and care about him.


Foremost, there's Jack who repeatedly proposes to Ennis, only to be rebuffed every time: „You gonna do this again next summer?“, prayer of thanks scene, post divorce scene, etc.

Ennis also rejects Alma: refusing to look for a better payed job, no vacations for her and the girls (story only), staying in the apartment (story only), no going out to the church social or the Knife&Fork with her and Jack, etc.

Ennis declines Junior's wish to live with him

He dumps Cassie without even telling her.


Pretty much a pattern here.


What other examples come to your mind? Why do you think Ennis keeps rejecting people?




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 01:13:25 pm »

This is a wonderful topic (again, as usual) Chrissi!  I'll ponder this some more and surely come back and post again.

My initial response is that yes, this is absolutely a pattern with Ennis, and that it probably is a manifestation of really deeply rooted low self-esteem.  His trauma from a young age and his sense of abandonment (first by his parents who die and then by his siblings who essentially cast him out - "no more room for me."), may have led to a sense that he's not worthy of close or intimate connections.  And, maybe as a defense mechanism against rejection, Ennis makes sure to do the rejecting first.

He also seems to routinely blame the person he's rejecting... he does this with Jack (lake scene), Alma ("once burned")  and Cassie (seeming resentment over Carl... "looks like I got the message in any case").

« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 08:15:10 pm by atz75 »
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Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 01:41:31 pm »
I think you have to be able to love and accept yourself, before you are able to fully accept someone elses love for you. I do not thnk Ennis fully accepts himself, until the very end when he discovers the shirts.
The other factor is that you need to be shown love to be able to love.I am not convinced that the young Ennis was ever shown much love, or indeed ever witnessed it.How then would he ever be able to respond to the love of anyone,difficult enough with Alma, which he would at least understand as being the "norm" but almost impossible to respond to the love of Jack.
I will go off and think some more now.


Offline mariez

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 07:00:05 pm »
Great questions, Chrissi!

I agree that this is a pattern.  But I would separate Ennis's "rejection" of Jack from the other examples you stated.  While it's true that some of the same factors are in play (fear of abandonment, low self-esteem) the psychological trauma he suffered at age nine when his father took him to see Earl's mutilated body is the overriding issue in that relationship that isn't present in the others.

I agree with Amanda that it is a defense mechanism against rejection. I think it's also a part of the "lesson" his father taught him about dealing with K.E. when he was six.  Get him before he gets you. 

I think abandonment is a huge issue with Ennis  - and one of many reasons why the "I wish I knew how to quit you" line was so utterly devastating to him.

I'm not sure I agree that young Ennis wasn't shown much love.  I always had the impression that Ennis was shown love by his mother.  He dredges up a memory of of his mother during the dozy embrace - a moment when he seems to act on impulse in a gentle, almost maternal manner - humming and rocking and using his mother's words.  In the ss we also see that he doesn't have a problem with saying how much he loves his girls - he tells Jack twice - once in Alma's presence and once at the motel.  Recognizing and admitting that he loves Jack - another man - that is what his mind rejects.    I do agree that he did not love or accept himself and didn't feel he was worthy of receiving love from others. 

Lots to think about...

Marie
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The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 08:24:27 pm »
I agree that this is a pattern.  But I would separate Ennis's "rejection" of Jack from the other examples you stated.  While it's true that some of the same factors are in play (fear of abandonment, low self-esteem) the psychological trauma he suffered at age nine when his father took him to see Earl's mutilated body is the overriding issue in that relationship that isn't present in the others.

Yes, I agree that Jack presents a special case... somewhat different from the female love-interests that he rejects.  The way I'd phrase this, is that Ennis's rejection of Jack or his continual urge to push him away or hold him at arms length (but *not* under any circumstances to break up with him following the reunion) is a manifestation of really complicated internalized homophobia.  And, this homophobia that he's learned from his father and the Earl incident and which he directs at himself and Jack comes into direct conflict with his fear of abandonment and his very really and vital love for Jack.  So it's a constant tug of war for Ennis.

I absolutely agree that some of Jack's turns of phrase in the lake side argument probably really, really pushed Ennis's buttons in terms of the abandonment issue.  The "quit you" line and the "I did once" probably sent Ennis spinning into a lot of deep seated fears about being abandoned by Jack, who is pretty undeniably the most important relationship in his adult life.

Like Jack, I think the question of Ennis's rejections of Junior's desire to live with him is a special case... separate from how Ennis deals with his romantic relationships with women.

I think Junior and his rejection of Junior's urge to come live with him presents other issues, which honestly I don't fully understand.  Clearly this standoff-ishness with a child is very different from rejecting a lover (male or female).  The one clear reason why Ennis might do this is because he wants to always be free to run off with Jack, when those special opportunities come up.  And, he may be partially right, that his work really might make it impractical to try to be the primary caregiver to a teenage daughter.  But, there may be more complex, emotional reasons too.

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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2008, 11:44:38 pm »
simplistically, Ennis rejects others because Ennis rejects himself.

Offline Gabreya

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2008, 12:18:39 pm »
I totally agree with EVERYBODY. Ennis's issue of 'abandonment' is one of the main themes/morals of the movie. It shows what can happen if you let your fear of abandonment and rejection of get in the way of the desire to be happy and being in love without feeling guilty.

Ennis had that problem and it was eating him up. All because of the mess he's been put through as a child and while growing up, he felt that in order for not to get hurt inside by someone who has rejected him, he rejects them first before going any further. Of course, it only makes the situation(s) worse when that happens. And it's like you guys said. It's not that he didn't love any of the people that were in his life. It's just that inside, he was broken. And he has been broken for so long that it's becoming even more and more unbearable. And since he was broken, he really didn't know exactly how to cope with it and it became really difficult for him to 'function'. Of course, he has low self-esteem and doesn't think he's worthy. He always had that feeling that he hates himself and feels guilty about something he did which he shouldn't do to himself. That's why he was never the one to be in a completely commited relationship because of that. Even Jack, Alma Jr., and Cassie were pretty worried about him.

But, who could blame the poor guy? He had an assholish father and his life was gloomy.

And if I may continue on about his situation with Jack:by the time Jack had died and when the end of the story/movie rolled on, Ennis went from broken to completely shattered. He realized that it was too late. His Jack wanted to desperately spend the rest of his life with him and be happy but Ennis wasn't really ready for that and as usual, was afraid. He wanted to reject the offer to leave with him but he never wanted to reject Jack.
And I personally believe that the famous final line,"Jack, I swear...," was in a way, some form of promise mixed with an apology to Jack. It's like he's saying that he'll make the memory live on and at the same time saying sorry to him for not giving him the chance to really show him how much he loved him when he probably should have. It was a mistake that he deeply regreted and now was going to cherish his memory for comfort.

Offline shortfiction

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2008, 09:55:23 pm »
Very nice post, Gabreya.

Do you think Ennis would take Jack's mother up on her invitation to come back and see the Twists again?

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2008, 10:05:13 pm »


Somehow I really doubt that Ennis would go visit Jack's parents again.  On the one hand Ma Twist's offer almost sounds like simple politeness (but not necessarily really meaning it), but on the other hand we get the sense that she's so lonely out there and so affectionate towards Ennis and what she seem to understand about his importance to Jack it's possible that she might really mean it.

But to me, regardless of whether she really meant it, it just doesn't really seem to be within Ennis's character to go back.  I feel like it took so much courage and determination for Ennis to go there in the first place... I just don't think he would put himself through that again.  Plus, I feel like that one visit provided him with the closure he needed... at least the closure he needed as far as Lightning Flat was concerned.  I think he realizes that th ashes will never come into his possession and I'm sure he would dread another encounter with Old Man Twist.  I feel like, for Ennis, the discovery of the shirts really supercedes the issue of the ashes by the time he leaves the house.

I feel like in his rejection of Jack (living with Jack) he cheated himself out of the opportunity to have a new mother-figure in his life.  Ma Twist, I feel fairly confident could have become a very good figure in that regard in Ennis's life if he'd given her and Jack the chance.  By the time of Jack's death and the end scenes of the film, it's really too late for that I think.  As much as Ma Twist is lovely and sympathetic to him, it would be awkward to try to build a "son-in-law" type relationship at that late stage.

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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 10:33:57 pm »
I do NOT see Ennis rejecting persons close to him; on the contrary !

Offline Gabreya

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 11:32:50 pm »
Thanks, shortfiction. :)

I'm sure that Ennis at some point in the future probably will go back and visit the Twists.

And this may seem a bit wierd to you guys but in my personal opinion, when Mrs. Twist was very warm, welcoming, and soft towards Ennis, that 'probably' showed Ennis that he was NOT being rejected by someone. This maybe my own mind track thinking on my point of view of it but I have a feeling that Ennis realized that he was actually being WELCOMED into. Not that I'm saying that Jack, his daughter, nor Cassie weren't doing that. It's just he really didn't know how to accept their invitations because of his severe phobia that would prove to be his undoing.

After Jack's passing and the soft mannerisms toward him from Mrs. Twist, Ennis now accepted someone's sweet gesture toward him without rebuffing it. He now knew that not everyone can be so cold(i.e. his own father and Jack's father, among people).
Jack's mother showed him some comfort along with some maternal-like feelings toward him when he went to visit them. And he hadn't felt that way ever since his own mother had passed. It was really nice that the love's of his life mother was so polite and caring towards him during his mourning of her beloved son. And he took in that welcomage and started to change his views on himself and how he should be more willing to accept those who express their love for him. Even though he was still in pain after Jack's death, he looked as if he'd learned a good lesson and started to live by it.
Especially at the end of the movie with Alma Jr. It looks as if he was taking his steps to accepting himself and others as they shared their concern and care towards him.

But, hey, that's what I got out of it. It can be anybody's interpretation to guess how the connection with Ennis and Jack's mother was. ;)

Offline shortfiction

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2008, 01:55:58 pm »
It's too bad that Ennis learned something so important so late.

Another excellent post.

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Offline Gabreya

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2008, 01:02:01 am »
It's too bad that Ennis learned something so important so late.

Another excellent post.



Yeah. Exactly. It was too late. :( But, at least he'd learn from that mistake and started to try to do better with trusting his loved ones better.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2008, 12:48:44 pm »

I still think the distinction between Ennis's lovers (Jack, Cassie, Alma) and Junior is pretty interesting in terms of the concept of pushing people away.  When we think about the final scene between Junior and Ennis in his trailer, we see Ennis making some clear progress in trying to be closer to Junior.  And, clearly with his half-declaration of "I swear" to Jack's ghost...  at least emotionally he's also demonstrating progress in his attitude towards Jack.  The open ended question is about whether Ennis would ever be open enough to another lover down the road.  Would he be able to apply the "lessons he's learned" through the Jack experience to some future lover, or is that aspect of Ennis's life essentially over?  Meaning that he really did learn his lessons too late. 

Since we see that Jack really is the only lover with whom Ennis seems to connect emotionally and he doesn't demonstrate interest in other men (and by his own admission in the short story), maybe Jack really was his one shot at true romantic happiness.

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Offline Gabreya

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2008, 08:18:44 pm »
Exactly, atz.

Offline MountainMan

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2008, 09:27:23 pm »
this is a great topic.

 :)

I need to think more tho....

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2008, 09:36:24 pm »
I do not think that Enns rejects others close to him since he needed to protecthimself, his family and his lover !

Offline mariez

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 10:04:25 pm »
Since we see that Jack really is the only lover with whom Ennis seems to connect emotionally and he doesn't demonstrate interest in other men (and by his own admission in the short story), maybe Jack really was his one shot at true romantic happiness.

That is interesting, Amanda! I do agree that Jack is the only lover with whom Jack is able to connect, but  I'm not sure if I'm understanding the rest of what you're saying correctly.  Throughout the story, Ennis truly does not believe he is a gay man.  The destructive rural homphobia is ingrained too deeply inside of him for that, so he explains his relationship with Jack as "this thing" - an anomaly of two straight men who are best friends, but who have sex.  I think that's what he meant when he asked Jack if this happened to other people.  Brokeback was a very special set of circumstances - that's why he believes it had the "power" (the imagined power referred to when he finds the shirts) and doesn't realize until he finds the shirts that the real power was the love he and Jack shared.  I think he believes he's telling the truth when he tells Jack in the motel "I know I ain't."  But clearly it's not the truth - Ennis is not a straight man who just happens to have sex with his best friend.  I don't think we can take his admission that he doesn't have interest in other men as a simple statement of fact - it's not that he doesn't have an interest, it's that Ennis would never have allowed himself to have an interest because that would mean that what he had with Jack wasn't just "a thing" - and if it's not just a thing then he's one of "them guys"  - something he definitely does not want to be. 

Understand that I'm not trying to make a case that Ennis could have another shot at romance, I'm simply saying that what Ennis believes and says throughout the story is not necessarily the truth - just the truth as he sees it. 

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2008, 10:46:40 pm »
Truth is truth.

Of course, thruth depends on one's culture, experiences, feeling, civilisation(s), etc. !

There are such men out there in the World that are Ennis! They see themselves as straights and are, and it is normal for them or some to have sex and /or love ONLY another man !!

It depends a lot... on each person ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2008, 10:52:42 pm »
He tries to protect, like a good human and civil being should !!

Offline MountainMan

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2008, 11:12:17 pm »
I'm not sure if Ennis believes that he could ever be happy....with Jack or any of the others. So maybe he has a kind of "why bother?" attitude toward relationships. He can't commit to Jack because of the consequences he foresees, and perhaps he simply can't see them succeeding and being happy together. Or he doesn't believe he deserves it.

hmmm. Same thing with the others. Alma, Cassie, etc. But with them it may be that his desire for Jack has ruined his other relationships. Maybe he feels there's no point in trying since he really wants to be with Jack (but won't!) and can't be satisfied with the others.


Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2008, 11:14:41 pm »
I'm not sure if Ennis believes that he could ever be happy....with Jack or any of the others. So maybe he has a kind of "why bother?" attitude toward relationships. He can't commit to Jack because of the consequences he foresees, and perhaps he simply can't see them succeeding and being happy together. Or he doesn't believe he deserves it.

hmmm. Same thing with the others. Alma, Cassie, etc. But with them it may be that his desire for Jack has ruined his other relationships. Maybe he feels there's no point in trying since he really wants to be with Jack (but won't!) and can't be satisfied with the others.



good point, Ennis sees his options as so limited that to ascribe to him the same motivations that others have in relationships may be a stretch. I see Ennis as an emotionally stunted man who never really learned the value of a relationship.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2008, 10:11:49 am »
I disagree, and think that Ennis did his very best, considering that he was in a war zone !

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2008, 11:45:09 am »
he did his very best, but he was still an emotionally stunted man and could do only so much. my comment isn't an attack on the Ennis character, just what I feel is a realistic appraisal of what I feel the character could or couldn't feel for Jack, or Cassie, or Alma under the circumstances of his emotional retardation.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2008, 12:19:21 pm »
If you see Ennis in another light, he was in war zone ?

Worst in some ways, than that Greyhound man who was murdered recently ?

Offline mariez

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2008, 03:39:04 pm »
I'm not sure if Ennis believes that he could ever be happy....with Jack or any of the others. So maybe he has a kind of "why bother?" attitude toward relationships. He can't commit to Jack because of the consequences he foresees, and perhaps he simply can't see them succeeding and being happy together. Or he doesn't believe he deserves it.

hmmm. Same thing with the others. Alma, Cassie, etc. But with them it may be that his desire for Jack has ruined his other relationships. Maybe he feels there's no point in trying since he really wants to be with Jack (but won't!) and can't be satisfied with the others.

And beyond that, I don't think Ennis ever believed that achieving "happiness" was the purpose of life, or that it was something to strive for.  You played the hand you were dealt, did what was "right" as dictated by society (and his father), didn't complain, and withstood what you couldn't fix. 

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2008, 04:18:15 pm »
If you see Ennis in another light, he was in war zone ?

Worst in some ways, than that Greyhound man who was murdered recently ?

welll, if you wish to call his life a "war zone". I don't quite see it that way. Ennis chose to make his life as placid as was possible, he was adverse to any change at all, including a change in his relationship with Jack. I have no doubts as to the causes of the hollowness of his emotional life, but I can't see that as a "war zone". I thiink that a lot of Brokies have unrealistic expectations of Ennis, and a thin understanding of what Ennis, or men like him, were or are really like - and what their motivations are. It isn't logical to self-internalize Ennis's motivation and actions, most people opining on Ennis simply do not have the experiences necessary to relate to it, except in a generalized / "romanticized" sort of way.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2008, 05:37:50 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

I think that romanticising Ennis is OK to a certain point, but just that is not, since I re-say that Ennis feels that he is in a war zone or something similar ! That changes our perception... somewhat ? Ennis has a  perception of the world,  which notably is very different than most, and he said so, remember ?


Like those others on that Greyhound bus, lately, these other peaceful passengers were in a war zone when that murderer was carving and beheading that innocent young man, and they will remain so till the rest of their lives in many ways seeing the world daily different from now on ! So was Ennis, and that was not his fault, as society is what it is then and now worst and worst !
Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2008, 05:53:14 pm »
we will just agree to disagree on the "war zone" analogy.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2008, 08:35:06 pm »
Ok brokeplex, then put Ennis on that Greyhound bus, and he's not the murderer ?

And then of his life then anf after ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2008, 01:26:24 pm »
I don't understand the relationship between Ennis and the Greyhound bus?

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2008, 05:55:34 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

In order to reply, maybe this might help:


The spectators in that Greyhound bus had a horrible times, while the murderer was torturing that innocent young man.

Ennis, was an innocent young man when his dad brought him to that tortured body, who had been a gay man !
...........

That time on that Greyhound bus was horrible ! Plus for some time, seeing the decapitated head of an annocent young man !

It was also horrible for Ennis to see that tortured gay man whose sex parts were removed because he was gay !

.............

The spectators on that Greyhound bus, I'm sure had a dire time then, and will therefore, have hard times for the rest of their lives, even fearing persons and society too ?? Since, it was like war to them, as each feared for its own life, also collectively !

Ennis fears then seeing that tortured gay man mutulated body, even for his own life, then and after...
so it's like war ! And even collectively with Jack, he fears that both might be tortured ??

..........

All these spectators as well as Ennis... are in a state of mind... like you have in war ?

Au revoir,
hugs!




Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2008, 09:39:16 pm »
some of your analogy makes sense, but Ennis grew up in an environment that was at least similar to Jack, and Jack did not exhibit the behavioral pathologies that Ennis did. so I think that there is more to the story than just claiming that Ennis had a type of shell shocked battle fatigue.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2008, 10:50:44 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

But Jack does the same as Ennis; think about it ?

It's different form or camouflage... but it's the same  since society or war against gays will and does hurt him too, and even murder him !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2008, 09:23:18 pm »
no I don't see your point about Jack.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2008, 11:40:32 pm »
In some ways, Jack also is Ennis ! But I will not explain that now, as that is very difficult and since I do not have your talent to express it !

........

Let's try this:

1-
Both Jack and Ennis like sex together !

2-
But it is not only sex: it is also tenderness; as we see in that tent scene where Ennis enters willingly and is caressed by Jack; there is mutual caring ! Two humans caring beautifully  for each other/for one another !!

3-
Ennis is in dire hard times throughout his life like a war zone because he saw that mutulated gay man's body, and he does NOT want to be murdered that way at all; so he fears that ! Ennis is true to himself ( and to others too in some ways or all the ways); he seeks a real friendship even in war-time-like society, expressing that by less sex ! If Ennis expresses himself with much much more sex, then he will be murdered he feels !

Jack is also in dire times in his life as he seeks too true friendship; and somehow times are like a war-time-society for him too, but he expresses that by much sex !

Ennis knows that Jack will likely get murdered because Jack is gay, much more than his (Ennis') chances are and that is why he remains straight even if he wants and is gay !

........

Since I am exhausted, I must come back to this another time. Maybe this post helps ?

Au revoir,
hugs! Note that war-time logic is NOT nescessarily the same as in peaceful times ??


Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2008, 02:06:20 pm »
sorry, I am still confused.

Online Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2008, 04:14:29 pm »
I find the idea of Ennis being in a "war zone" interesting. Ennis described to Jack how his daily life was like navigating thru a mine field: "Ever go out on the pavement and see the people and think that they all know?" he asked Jack. Ennis was concerned for his physical safety, afraid he'd be ambushed at some unsuspecting time and strung up just like one of those two old birds he saw when he was nine.

I also think the idea of Ennis and Jack being the same is true in a way. Ennis and Jack were complementary, like the two sides of a coin, or like yin and yang. They grew up in opposite corners of Wyoming and, altho they had each endured hardships and were inured to the stoic life, they reacted to life's adversities in opposite ways, Ennis withdrawing to within, Jack reaching out.

The only thing I know about the greyhound bus, though, is that Ennis was eating pie in the station when Cassie came upon him!

Now, back to the rejecting...Ennis in the story even rejected his daughters after the divorce. Although he continued to pay child support.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2008, 04:29:41 pm »

Now, back to the rejecting...Ennis in the story even rejected his daughters after the divorce. Although he continued to pay child support.

Yes, I recall that in the story it's made quite clear that he avoids seeing his daughters for quite a long time after the divorce.

I'm not sure this is entirely clear in the film

But, the more I think about the ending, the more it seems the filmmakers wanted to show a level of distance between Ennis and Junior following Jack's death (as lovely as that encounter ultimately ends up being).  In their conversation right after she pulls up, it's clear he doesn't really know what's going on in her life and later she seems irritated that she needs to tell Ennis that she's known Kurt for about a year.

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Offline mariez

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2008, 06:33:14 pm »
Yes, I recall that in the story it's made quite clear that he avoids seeing his daughters for quite a long time after the divorce.

Yep.  After the Thanksgiving disaster:

He didn’t try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma.

But we never find out exactly what "a long time" means.  It's not specifically stated in the story what year that Thanksgiving dinner takes place, mid-1970's?  But, then, during their last camping trip in May of 1983 (story) Ennis tells Jack:

he saw his girls about once a month, Alma Jr. a shy seventeen-year-old with his beanpole length, Francine a little live wire.

So, clearly he didn't wait until the girls moved away from Alma and looked him up on their own as was his original thought.  But it's also not clear when he started seeing the girls again or what precipitated his decision to start seeing them again.  I always wondered about that. 

And, yeah, in the film we're given the impression that he doesn't appear to know a lot of (seemingly important) details about Junior's life. 

Marie
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2008, 08:39:59 pm »
Merci Front-Ranger !

Your post is news which I welcome. I wish I had your talent to verse as well as you do !

May I add that we see Jack reaching out... but only in some ways ! Somehow, he does limit himself ?
Like Ennis does in some ways ?

But this is hard to think about and to research ? If we take the light that both feels that it's a somewhat war-zone, because they both are gay men and society does places them in prison or kill such, then which discoveries
about each  be done ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2008, 08:43:13 pm »
Why is that as you say atz ?

Why not  many communications between Ennis and his daughters ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2008, 08:46:25 pm »
Mariez, since Ennis loved his daughters, why does he not see them often ?

Could it be that their mother was somewhat anti-gay and did not let her daughters see their father ?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2008, 09:08:02 pm »

I think that Ennis becomes increasingly reclusive and more and more of a loner following the divorce and following Jack's death especially.  I think he let his relationship with his kids slip in the same way that he put distance between himself and everyone.  He was even putting distance between himself and Jack at the end of their relationship (I think Jack's comment about the fact that Ennis "used to come away easy..." implies this whole issue of Ennis becoming more reclusive and distant).


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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2008, 09:13:34 pm »
Merci beaucoup atz !

Your post qualifies, what most think about Ennis' life as it goes on.

Do you think that Jack has that way also as a method of non-communicating, is becoming reclusive too ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2008, 09:22:52 pm »

I wonder, and sort of think that Jack does the opposite of Ennis.  My hunch is that by the end Jack's desparation was leading him to be more and more reckless.  I think his naturally social nature wouldn't probably lead him to withdraw in the same way that Ennis's shy temperament probably means that becoming reclusive is the comfortable thing for Ennis. 

Starting with the brash decision to go to Mexico (out of desparation following Ennis's post-divorce rejection) he may have been more and more bold and maybe less careful about seeking out men to hook up with, etc.  And, it's hard to tell exactly how this may fit in with his relationship with Randall, because we really don't know much about the details of how that worked out. 

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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2008, 09:27:30 pm »
Merci atz !

Could we not consider that Jack's more and more recklessness is a FORM of reclusiveness that Ennis is popular for ?

Au revoir,
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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2008, 10:32:10 pm »
I find the idea of Ennis being in a "war zone" interesting. Ennis described to Jack how his daily life was like navigating thru a mine field: "Ever go out on the pavement and see the people and think that they all know?" he asked Jack. Ennis was concerned for his physical safety, afraid he'd be ambushed at some unsuspecting time and strung up just like one of those two old birds he saw when he was nine.

I also think the idea of Ennis and Jack being the same is true in a way. Ennis and Jack were complementary, like the two sides of a coin, or like yin and yang. They grew up in opposite corners of Wyoming and, altho they had each endured hardships and were inured to the stoic life, they reacted to life's adversities in opposite ways, Ennis withdrawing to within, Jack reaching out.

The only thing I know about the greyhound bus, though, is that Ennis was eating pie in the station when Cassie came upon him!

Now, back to the rejecting...Ennis in the story even rejected his daughters after the divorce. Although he continued to pay child support.

War Zone Analogies -

The words that Ennis used in his last scene with Jack were not "navigating a mine field", however, that may a reasonable interpretation of his life - but then maybe it isn't a reasonable interpretation.

 I don't think that Ennis was living in an impossible situation for him, he had resigned himself to his limited small life, and he envisioned no other. I think he was economically challenged, and that is a large portion of his frustration in his last meeting with Jack, and he was frustrated with Jack for bringing up yet again the idea of them living together. Ennis just wanted a peaceful existence with a certain amount of limited contact with Jack, but I am not convinced that even if Ennis were less economically challenged he would have agreed to live with Jack. In a way, Ennis would have viewed living with Jack as trading one whining, dissatisfied partner (Alma) for another whining, dissatisfied partner - and I think that Ennis feared that. Ennis liked his solitary life out on the range with the animals as his only companions, he was a distinctly inwardly driven person. And I think to the point of it being a pathology, but that was Ennis.

As to the business of Ennis rejecting people, yes, he wanted contact with people only up to a certain point. I think that it is overlooked that this trait may be not only a part of his difficult relationship with Jack but a part of his basic nature. He was probably basically an antisocial person. There are lots of social recluses in the world, mostly they do no harm, they just keep to themselves and want no "help" or "redemption".

Do I think that Ennis had a mildly pathological personality? yes to a degree?

Do I think that Jack was better adjusted? Mostly I do.

In a sense Ennis was incompatible for either Jack or Cassie, and to a large degree he was also incompatible with Alma. But, I find it interesting that the one person who spent the most time, hung on to him the longest, was Alma. In the 12 or so years they were married, they were together most of that time, except for Ennis's time on the range and with Jack. Jack and Ennis were together physically about a total of one year if you add up all their time spent in each others company. Cassie was together physically with Ennis about probably the same amount of time. I suspect that if Jack had moved in with Ennis, he would  have left him within a year, and the same with Cassie. And Ennis had to understand deep down inside that he was better off keeping Jack and Cassie at arms length.

The more interesting question to me is : why did Jack hold on so tight and never gave up on Ennis when they really weren't that compatable emotionally? Perhaps Jack could envision no better life either.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2008, 10:57:09 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

I am sad having read your post which is interesting, but places Ennis and Jack at too much opposite ends, it seems by your statement or view !!

I must agree with most of it ! However, on some points I remain searching... still.

Do you think that Jack, according to your search, had therefore left Ennis, for someone else but... what ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2008, 11:06:49 pm »
Merci brokeplex !

I am sad having read your post which is interesting, but places Ennis and Jack at too much opposite ends, it seems by your statement or view !!

I must agree with most of it ! However, on some points I remain searching... still.

Do you think that Jack, according to your search, had therefore left Ennis, for someone else but... what ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

You should not be sad, its just my interpretation of the hopelessness of their sad affair.

Yes, I think that you understand the full implications of my view of Jack. I believe that Jack had mostly given up on Ennis. That is the purpose of the "dozy embrace" memory that Jack has while watching Ennis drive off. I believe that possibly Jack was planning to leave Lureen and move up to Lightening Flat with Randall. OMT intimates this to Ennis, but like most of Jacks ideas, "they didn't come to pass".

This realization makes the closet scene in OMTs house, when Ennis has his epiphanic moment about Jack, so very poignant and painful to watch.

Offline rlh03

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2008, 09:48:32 am »
My thoughts...This is Wyoming, 1963  to 1983, a rough country and time.  Ennis, grew up with little love in his family (regardless of the circumstances behind it) and like most children, losing parents, not feeling loved, the feeling of being rejected becomes the basis of his future and its not something a child or young adult can easily change.  Feeling rejected and not wanted and therefore unloved at every turn in your life limits, in extreme fashion, how you can accept the love or acceptance of others, or even accept yourself.  At the end, in the trailer scene with tears in his eyes he was able to touch the shirts and the postcard card lovingly and with feeling because, he knew, he, and his love for Jack, could now never be rejected.  But he still lives with the guilt of Jack's death and can't accept, and therefore rejects, himself. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 20/08: Ennis rejecting people close to him
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2008, 03:04:28 pm »
rlh03, you do provide an interesting view, as a description by your post.

But why this:
       But he still lives with the guilt of Jack's death and can't accept, and therefore rejects, himself.   
 
 
                 

..........

Can you elaborate more ?

Au revoir,
hugs!