TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts

[Penthesilea]

Happy Monday, BetterMostians
(ok, ok, who do I want to kid? There is no such thing like a happy Monday. But we'll try to make the best of it, don't we?)


This week's topic was inspired by our resident Katie77 (Sue). I'll let her make the introduction of the topic by quoting a post of her:


"No......I dont think they would have [kept each others postcards], because men dont usually save things like that. Even with the shirts, as wonderful as that was, it was quite a bit out of the ordinary for a man to be so sentimental as to keep those shirts.  In fact, I dont think this has ever been discussed, but I wonder when Jack went back to his folks place after sheepherding on Brokeback, did his mother get his clothes out to wash and  ask about the blood on the shirt, and Jack maybe told her about Ennis, and it was her who hung the shirts in the closet........(maybe thats another thing that could be discussed here)."
Source: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,22182.msg396677.html#msg396677


What do you think? Did Jack talk to his mother about The Shirts? If so, what might he have said? Maybe he simply asked her not to wash them, without delivering any explanation? Maybe he didn't say anything at all, but hid The Shirts before she could get hold of his laundry?

Over the years, it has somehow become common assumption that Mrs. Twist knew about The Shirts at the point Ennis visits the Twist farm. Even more so, that she connected Ennis with The Shirts and knew pretty precise what went on.
If you agree with that assumption, when do you think she gained knowledge of The Shirts? Early on, directly from Jack (see above paragraph), some time along the years, after Jack's death, or something entirely different?

The Shirts were hidden in Jack's closet, but it was her house, she lived there, without much distraction in her life. And she kept his room like it was when he was a boy, she made a point of that.

Share your POV about

Jack, his mother and The Shirts

[retropian]

I think Jack hid the shirts without telling his Mom, or anybody. He certainly never told Ennis. No doubt his Mom discovered them and came to understand their significance at some point. Presumably, Jack would visit his parents after his time with Ennis, his "Fishing Buddy" once or twice a year. We know he mentioned Ennis to them over the years and I think she connected the dots. She was probably puzzled as to why her son would layer two bloodied shirts in that way and tuck them away discreetly in the back of his closet. She would know they have a special meaning to him, but what? I don't think it would have taken her too long to figure it out. A mother knows.

Also, it is clear during Ennis's visit that she knows who Ennis is and what he meant to Jack. She loves him because her son loved him. She loves him because he was the One who loved her son. I think they acknowledge each other as they put the shirts in the paper bag. Ennis came out to her.

[injest]

I think Jack hid the shirts without telling his Mom, or anybody. He certainly never told Ennis. No doubt his Mom discovered them and came to understand their significance at some point. Presumably, Jack would visit his parents after his time with Ennis, his "Fishing Buddy" once or twice a year. We know he mentioned Ennis to them over the years and I think she connected the dots. She was probably puzzled as to why her son would layer two bloodied shirts in that way and tuck them away discreetly in the back of his closet. She would know they have a special meaning to him, but what? I don't think it would have taken her too long to figure it out. A mother knows.

Also, it is clear during Ennis's visit that she knows who Ennis is and what he meant to Jack. She loves him because her son loved him. She loves him because he was the One who loved her son. I think they acknowledge each other as they put the shirts in the paper bag. Ennis came out to her.

I am sure she did. I know I have found things in my son's room that are obviously private....you have to respect that privacy. Denial is a form of protection sometimes. Covers for things you can't/shouldn't talk about.

But she would have put two and two together..the shirts appeared after that summer. Ennis also appeared, in her son's conversation. I can't imagine Jack would have ever said a word bad about Ennis...so "like the horse thief that can't help flashing a glimpse of the bridle" his tone, his demeanor would have given him away to his mother.

[optom3]

I think she found them,after all there was not much else in his room.I suspect that Jack talked about Ennis and she would have known one shirt was her sons and probably put 2 and 2 together and worked out who the other shirt belonged to.
When Ennis comes down with them she shows no surprise at all,quite the opposite she goes to get him a bag to put them in.
I do wonder what she thought about the blood stains.Did she ever worry  initially that her son had made an advance to someone and received a bloodied nose.
As a mom myself I would not have worried about the shirts,I would have been concerned about the blood.
Maybe on one of Jacks visits home she asked about the shirts and that is why when Ennis came down, she knew exactly what he had in his hands and what he wanted to do.

[Katie77]

I think Jack hid the shirts without telling his Mom, or anybody. He certainly never told Ennis. No doubt his Mom discovered them and came to understand their significance at some point. Presumably, Jack would visit his parents after his time with Ennis, his "Fishing Buddy" once or twice a year. We know he mentioned Ennis to them over the years and I think she connected the dots. She was probably puzzled as to why her son would layer two bloodied shirts in that way and tuck them away discreetly in the back of his closet. She would know they have a special meaning to him, but what? I don't think it would have taken her too long to figure it out. A mother knows.

Also, it is clear during Ennis's visit that she knows who Ennis is and what he meant to Jack. She loves him because her son loved him. She loves him because he was the One who loved her son. I think they acknowledge each other as they put the shirts in the paper bag ]Ennis came out to her.

Yes, the little nod to Jack's mum as he she gave him the paper bag, was the first time in Ennis's life that he was acknowledging his love for Jack, to someone else. He knew she knew, and I think he was glad she did.

[Mandy21]

I was always fascinated by the stark difference between Jack's folks.  Here is maybe the first time Ennis drives so far to go visit someone, and what he is greeted by is a warm, patient, understanding, seemingly all-knowing and kind woman, and a cold-as-ice, angry, spiteful, inconsiderate shell of a man.  I cannot imagine how shocked he would have been when he sat down at that table.  Those two actors were spectacular in their brief performances. 

To get back to topic, I think Jack left those shirts there like that, in the back of his closet, wanting his mother to find them.  We never hear him say one harsh word about his mother, although we all know what he thought of his dad -- "never taught me a thing, never once came to see me ride", "can't please my old man no way", etc.  So we know that he loves his mom and appreciates her all his life.  But I wouldn't presume that a western, out-in-the-middle-of-nowhere farm wife during the 60's and 70's would have heard a whole lot about homosexuality, though.  Which makes me question if she really, truly knew that Ennis was Jack's lover, or if she just thought that he was just his great, close friend all those years?

[optom3]

I was always fascinated by the stark difference between Jack's folks.  Here is maybe the first time Ennis drives so far to go visit someone, and what he is greeted by is a warm, patient, understanding, seemingly all-knowing and kind woman, and a cold-as-ice, angry, spiteful, inconsiderate shell of a man.  I cannot imagine how shocked he would have been when he sat down at that table.  Those two actors were spectacular in their brief performances. 

To get back to topic, I think Jack left those shirts there like that, in the back of his closet, wanting his mother to find them.  We never hear him say one harsh word about his mother, although we all know what he thought of his dad -- "never taught me a thing, never once came to see me ride", "can't please my old man no way", etc.  So we know that he loves his mom and appreciates her all his life.  But I wouldn't presume that a western, out-in-the-middle-of-nowhere farm wife during the 60's and 70's would have heard a whole lot about homosexuality, though.  Which makes me question if she really, truly knew that Ennis was Jack's lover, or if she just thought that he was just his great, close friend all those years?

I think mothers always know, deep down.She may not have understood it, in fact her only reference point may have been the bible, with the much quoted, and man shall not lie down with man.I used to get so fed up of hearing that, by the radical religious groups around the time of BBM.In fact the best reply I ever heard was, that's O.K I have sex standing up !!
I digress, I know it's a more modern age,for some people, but I still think a mother knows.I remember I used to say to my patients,if the mother is worried then so am I. If mum was not worried then usually things were just fine.
I knew all the time my oldest had big problems, everyone else just laughed at me,or told me how intelligent he was.Well yes he is, but he is also deeply disturbed.It has taken me from age 2 to nearly 15 to finally get a diagnosis and treatment.
My son was floored that I knew the very time he first had sex.My husband thought I was an idiot.But turns out I was right.Sorry that sounds arrogant,I just feel for a mother who has a deep love for her child, they know pretty well everything.

The love Jacks mother has for him is so plain to see, it is almost too painful to watch.She instantly knows what Ennis has in his hands.No words necessary, just a look and the bag.

How ironic that we first see Ennis with a bag in hand containing pretty much all he has in the world.He has it all before him.Closed and as yet not experienced in love.Then full circle, Ennis with a bag, but this time it contains all that was important to him, all that is left of Jack and his life.
From one brown bag to another, but OMG what a journey between the two.The first bag symbolically is a reference to the lack of worldly goods, Ennis has.The second bag, still has no worldly goods, but it is now filled with love. Very sad.He clutches both of them tightly.
The first, not that he knows it, is a portent of all that is before him,the second, all that is behind him.
Well that's me completely in bits again.

[jstephens9]

First of all I had never thought about Ennis with the paper bag at the beginning with all of his possessions and the paper bag towards the end with the shirts. Good observation Optom!!! I also agree with you Optom that mothers do know. My mother certainly did way before I would have even been able to express it or even know what it was. She told me that she did so I know for sure. It came as no surprise to her at all. I asked her how and she said just that the mothers just know these kinds of things.

I definitely think that Jack was responsible for everything to do with the shirts. He would have to be. After all he is the one who found it so important to take Ennis' from the mountain. I would not be surprised at all if he talked to his mother about Ennis. I think they had a very close relationship and I think his mother knew of Jack's intense love for Ennis. I believe his father knew too although he didn't accept it at all. After all he knew who Ennis Del Mar was and I thought it was apparent that he knew that Ennis was much more than a friend to Jack.

Jack was a romantic and very sensitive. I don't think he had that much difficulty in expressing his feelings and I think he had expressed them to his mother. Jack was not confused about his feelings. It was Ennis who was confused. Jack would have dropped everything in his life for Ennis and would have never looked back. He was not worried about what people would think of two men living together. I think his mother knew about the shirts and I think she meant for Ennis to find them. That is one reason she asked Ennis if he wanted to go up to Jack's room. She was happy that Ennis did find and bring the shirts down. That was apparent by the look she gave Ennis. That somehow sealed the love she knew Jack always had for Ennis.

[Mandy21]

The love Jacks mother has for him is so plain to see, it is almost too painful to watch.She instantly knows what Ennis has in his hands.No words necessary, just a look and the bag.

How ironic that we first see Ennis with a bag in hand containing pretty much all he has in the world.He has it all before him.Closed and as yet not experienced in love.Then full circle, Ennis with a bag, but this time it contains all that was important to him, all that is left of Jack and his life.
From one brown bag to another, but OMG what a journey between the two.The first bag symbolically is a reference to the lack of worldly goods, Ennis has.The second bag, still has no worldly goods, but it is now filled with love. Very sad.He clutches both of them tightly.
The first, not that he knows it, is a portent of all that is before him,the second, all that is behind him.
Well that's me completely in bits again.

Fiona, once again, you've given me goosebumps with your words and perceptions.  How do you do that to me so easily???  You really ought to write a book or something; I'd be first in line to buy it 

There are some parts of BBM that no one could possibly sway my opinion on, and then there are parts like the scene with the shirts, where I've always waffled and wondered what it really meant.  I think it was huge that that was the first scene where the camera pans to the perspective of the object Ennis is about to find, looking out at Ennis, rather than honing in on the actors/action.  I knew right then that there was going to be a gigantic revelation.  And the more I read yours and other's words on this thread, I'm more convinced that that revelation came of how much Ennis was loved, and Jack was loved in return, comes full-circle, finally after 20 years, in the span of about two minutes.  Next time I watch it this week, I'll think of that scene from your eyes, thank you.

On a sidebar, I've read a lot of stuff about mother's intuitions and their innate protectiveness of their children.  Not being a mom, I wouldn't know.  Watching my poor mom being shuttled between the nursing home and the hospital lately, dying of 6 kinds of cancer -- I wish I could ask her what she knew about me that I never spoke out loud.  But maybe it's best I don't know, cause I haven't exactly been the least naughty of girls in my life.  Perhaps I should just let her rest, never knowing for sure....

[mariez]

Yes, there are many great "bookends" in the story, and the paper bags are probably my favorite!  I'm not convinced one way or another if Jack and his mom actually spoke about his relationship with Ennis, but I agree that it's clear Mrs. Twist knew about the shirts; and, therefore, what Jack and Ennis meant to each other, and that she wanted Ennis to find and keep them.

For me, one of the cornerstones of the story is the idea that Jack not only took Ennis's shirt but that he himself put one inside the other and hid them in the closet:  stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack’s own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one.  I don't think he could ever have expected that Ennis would find them one day, but yet what a tragic irony that, after Jack's death, those shirts he hid would  finally lead to Ennis's true understanding of their love.  And, of course, Heath's own touch of reversing the shirts adds to the impact of their symbolism.   IMO, Ennis finding the shirts is one of the greatest moments in literary and film history.

Marie

[belbbmfan]

I get goosebumps just reading this thread...


There ain't no reins on this one

[wayne1932]

Mothers don't always know.  too much generalization can confuse the issue.  And then they may know and not what to acknowleddge what they know. 

Case in point.  I knew my son was gay before his mother did, and he was about 30 when this became apparent to her.  But there is a mitigating factor here.   I knew that I could have been as queer as a 3$ bill since I was 13, IF!!! I had met the right man under the right circumstances.  But in those days (I'm 75 YO) the right circumstances were very rare and the right man was as much in denial about what could be as I was.

[optom3]

Fiona, once again, you've given me goosebumps with your words and perceptions.  How do you do that to me so easily???  You really ought to write a book or something; I'd be first in line to buy it 

There are some parts of BBM that no one could possibly sway my opinion on, and then there are parts like the scene with the shirts, where I've always waffled and wondered what it really meant.  I think it was huge that that was the first scene where the camera pans to the perspective of the object Ennis is about to find, looking out at Ennis, rather than honing in on the actors/action.  I knew right then that there was going to be a gigantic revelation.  And the more I read yours and other's words on this thread, I'm more convinced that that revelation came of how much Ennis was loved, and Jack was loved in return, comes full-circle, finally after 20 years, in the span of about two minutes.  Next time I watch it this week, I'll think of that scene from your eyes, thank you.

On a sidebar, I've read a lot of stuff about mother's intuitions and their innate protectiveness of their children.  Not being a mom, I wouldn't know.  Watching my poor mom being shuttled between the nursing home and the hospital lately, dying of 6 kinds of cancer -- I wish I could ask her what she knew about me that I never spoke out loud.  But maybe it's best I don't know, cause I haven't exactly been the least naughty of girls in my life.  Perhaps I should just let her rest, never knowing for sure....

You are so kind, thankyou for your lovely words.My main subjects were always science, but because I have always loved literature, I kept up with that as well.So many friends, to whom I write mails, ask why I don't write a book.I have written a few poems which are posted on Bettermost somewhere. Maybe on Hallmark, I can't remember.I do know that your words, lifted my spirits which have been saging a bit recently.

[Gabreya]

The shirts will always symbolize love and togetherness. Always. And for the record, Jack's mom is probably one of the most sweetest people on movie screen, despite her role was small but relevant.

[brokeplex]

I am sure she did. I know I have found things in my son's room that are obviously private....you have to respect that privacy. Denial is a form of protection sometimes. Covers for things you can't/shouldn't talk about.

But she would have put two and two together..the shirts appeared after that summer. Ennis also appeared, in her son's conversation. I can't imagine Jack would have ever said a word bad about Ennis...so "like the horse thief that can't help flashing a glimpse of the bridle" his tone, his demeanor would have given him away to his mother.

agreed, I don't think that its any more complicated than that. Jack probably left the shirts in OMT's house, and his mother inquired about them, and she figured out that they had a deep significance that should be respected. Did Jack keep them hanging in the closet all of those years? Maybe not, maybe he kept them in a drawer. Hanging on a nail for 20 years, and the shirts would have deteriorated, as unwashed cloth will do over time.

[optom3]

agreed, I don't think that its any more complicated than that. Jack probably left the shirts in OMT's house, and his mother inquired about them, and she figured out that they had a deep significance that should be respected. Did Jack keep them hanging in the closet all of those years? Maybe not, maybe he kept them in a drawer. Hanging on a nail for 20 years, and the shirts would have deteriorated, as unwashed cloth will do over time.

What srikes me quite forcefully, is that the two shirts remain together,in perpuity.Initially they represent Jacks unfailing optimism in the endurance of love.In the end they represent Ennis final acceptance of enduring love.It destroys me every time that the shirts are together, entwined with each other,in a way Jack and Ennis never were.
Did Jack when he was on a visit, breathe in their scent,reliving memories.The shirts would gradually lose their scent,little by little each separate olfactory reminder would have slipped away, just as Jacks hopes and dreams slowly slipped away.
Scent is so important to us.How many times do we notice a particular perfume or after shave, only to be so shocked when the person wearing it, is not whom we associate it with.
It seems no coincidence that one of the things Ennis does, is to inhale deeply of the shirts,there is no scent, which is in sharp contarst to the reunion scene, where in the S.S Ennis is keenly aware of Jacks' scent.

[Mandy21]

Okay, Fiona, you're officially freaking me out now.  I was just discussing today with my new boyfriend as of Saturday, who's loved me and waited patiently for me for almost 6 years now, about scent.  I wear something called Little Black Dress, it's from Avon, discontinued, but thank goodness to E-Bay, I'm stocked for life with shower gel, lotion, perfume, powder, everything.  It's the finest smell I've ever smelled, and completely indicative of me.  I'm not a big fan of scent on a person unless it really, really suits them.  And this one does, me.  Anyway, I emailed my boyfriend earlier today to ask if he'd liked it on me Saturday and Sunday, and his answer was:

Stop worrying about what *I* like...if you like it,
that's good enough for me.

But, yes, I did like it.

He's a good man.  It's about time I let myself be in love again.  Anyway, I just thought it was a very weird coincidence at midnight my time, 1 am yours, that you changed the topic to scent, and how personal it is.

That's all.  G'night.

[optom3]

Okay, Fiona, you're officially freaking me out now.  I was just discussing today with my new boyfriend as of Saturday, who's loved me and waited patiently for me for almost 6 years now, about scent.  I wear something called Little Black Dress, it's from Avon, discontinued, but thank goodness to E-Bay, I'm stocked for life with shower gel, lotion, perfume, powder, everything.  It's the finest smell I've ever smelled, and completely indicative of me.  I'm not a big fan of scent on a person unless it really, really suits them.  And this one does, me.  Anyway, I emailed my boyfriend earlier today to ask if he'd liked it on me Saturday and Sunday, and his answer was:

Stop worrying about what *I* like...if you like it,
that's good enough for me.

But, yes, I did like it.

He's a good man.  It's about time I let myself be in love again.  Anyway, I just thought it was a very weird coincidence at midnight my time, 1 am yours, that you changed the topic to scent, and how personal it is.

That's all.  G'night.

No such thing as coincidence !!!
My mother bought my husband an aftershave a few years ago, that for me can only be worn by one person. I nearly freaked when I saw the bottle.It was just wrong.I had to bite my tongue,and wait for it to be empty.
Equally I am known for a very old Lancome fragrance called magie noire.I know no one else who wears it. My mother will always be Hermes, rue de can't remember the rest of the name but instantly know the smell.All my children will be Johnsons baby talc.My husband is creed.
For someone else to be wearing a fragrance that you associate so strongly with just one person,is wrong.It never ceases to throw me off balance, completely upsetting my equilibrium.
It is just like new paint means Xmas for me, as my father always repainted the sitting room just before Xmas. !!!
Hmm maybe I should start a thread on fragrances and associations.

[Mandy21]

Yes, you should start a new thread about that.  We can talk about all the scents that Jack and Ennis would have smelled during their times together, as well as other Brokies' associations with certain scents.  I truly believe it's the most important of the senses that draws people together or pushes them apart.  Will you put the thread under your Rantings or somewhere else, so I know where to find it and add my thoughts?

[loneleeb3]

Also, it is clear during Ennis's visit that she knows who Ennis is and what he meant to Jack. She loves him because her son loved him. She loves him because he was the One who loved her son. I think they acknowledge each other as they put the shirts in the paper bag. Ennis came out to her.

I love this! It is so true. You could see so much in just a span pf a few seconds in thier eyes!
It's like everything passed between them at that point.
The whole storyis heartbreaking but this is one of the hardest scenes to witness.

[optom3]

Yes, you should start a new thread about that.  We can talk about all the scents that Jack and Ennis would have smelled during their times together, as well as other Brokies' associations with certain scents.  I truly believe it's the most important of the senses that draws people together or pushes them apart.  Will you put the thread under your Rantings or somewhere else, so I know where to find it and add my thoughts?

Done, posted in this section as there is a connection with both BBM and real life.

[stonebiscuit]

  IMO, Ennis finding the shirts is one of the greatest moments in literary and film history.

Marie

I also adore the haunting music that underscores this moment. For a brief while on the IMDB board there was a youtube clip that showed an extended take of this scene, not sure why we weren't treated to it in the final cut but who am I to question Mr Lee!

[loneleeb3]

I also adore the haunting music that underscores this moment. For a brief while on the IMDB board there was a youtube clip that showed an extended take of this scene, not sure why we weren't treated to it in the final cut but who am I to question Mr Lee!

I would love ot see that.

[optom3]

I would love ot see that.

It's still on youtube.
I can't move it here, just search for BBM finding shirts scene.It shows a clip from the I.S awards and the shirt scene is very slightly longer than the final version we see.Ennis sort of falls back against the wall crying.

[Penthesilea]

I would love ot see that.

 

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK-Fd_oxVsE[/youtube]

[BlissC]

Hmmm...the shirts...personally I don't think Mrs Twist knew about the shirts from the start. I don't think Jack told her. Whether she figured it out later after finding them and asked Jack about them, or whether she only found them after Jack's death and remembering how Jack talked about Ennis (we know from OMT that Jack did mention Ennis to his parents and told them of his plans to take Ennis to the ranch and for the two of them to run the place) figured it out. I've nothing really to base that view on - no evidence, but even if Jack had a good relationship with his mother, I don't think he'd have come right out and told her about the shirts. The shirts were something that was very personal to him, and they were hidden way back in the back of the closet there for a reason. Rummaging about in closets isn't really the sort of thing you'd expect fathers to do, so putting them anywhere in the closet I guess they'd be reasonably safe from OMT, but tidying closets and stuff is the sort of thing mothers do, which is why I think they were hidden way back at the back of the closet, and why I think Mrs Twist found them accidently.

Jack's relationship with his mother's an interesting one though, because though we're given a few clues about his relationship with his father, both in what Jack tells Ennis about him and what OMT himself tells Ennis about things Jack has said, we're given very little to go on as far as his relationship with his mother goes. Practically all we know about Jack's relationship with his mother is that she never explained to him what the Pentecost is. It interests me what sort of a relationship Jack had with her though. Did he talk openly to her? Did he tell her about Ennis? Were they close? Did he stay in contact with her when he was away rodeoing and when he moved to Texas?

[David In Indy]

I think she knew. She instinctively knew as a mother. But I don't think Jack ever talked to her about it.  But she knew all the same.

[loneleeb3]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK-Fd_oxVsE[/youtube]

Thank you friend!
That was great!
 

[injest]

Hmmm...the shirts...personally I don't think Mrs Twist knew about the shirts from the start. I don't think Jack told her. Whether she figured it out later after finding them and asked Jack about them, or whether she only found them after Jack's death and remembering how Jack talked about Ennis (we know from OMT that Jack did mention Ennis to his parents and told them of his plans to take Ennis to the ranch and for the two of them to run the place) figured it out. I've nothing really to base that view on - no evidence, but even if Jack had a good relationship with his mother, I don't think he'd have come right out and told her about the shirts. The shirts were something that was very personal to him, and they were hidden way back in the back of the closet there for a reason. Rummaging about in closets isn't really the sort of thing you'd expect fathers to do, so putting them anywhere in the closet I guess they'd be reasonably safe from OMT, but tidying closets and stuff is the sort of thing mothers do, which is why I think they were hidden way back at the back of the closet, and why I think Mrs Twist found them accidently.

Jack's relationship with his mother's an interesting one though, because though we're given a few clues about his relationship with his father, both in what Jack tells Ennis about him and what OMT himself tells Ennis about things Jack has said, we're given very little to go on as far as his relationship with his mother goes. Practically all we know about Jack's relationship with his mother is that she never explained to him what the Pentecost is. It interests me what sort of a relationship Jack had with her though. Did he talk openly to her? Did he tell her about Ennis? Were they close? Did he stay in contact with her when he was away rodeoing and when he moved to Texas?

maybe she didnt' tell him about the Pentecost because she knew about him (at some level) and couldnt' reconcile the love of her child with the 'you are going to hell' of her religion so she tried to compartmentalize them..keep them apart.

[BlissC]

That's an interesting idea. I've often thought before that it's very telling that Jack tells Ennis about his understanding of what the Pentecost is and then there's the line about "fellas like you and me marchin' off to hell", but I never really got beyond that and considered why his mother didn't tell him about the Pentecost. From the little Jack says about her and a couple of things from the scene at the ranch with Jack's parents after his death it's obvious she's a very religious lady, and yet as you say, it seems strange that she didn't tell Jack about the Penecost.

I guess compartmentalising the two - Jack and her religious beliefs - could account for that, and I do think it's very telling that despite her religious beliefs, she 'accepts' Ennis, and not only suggests he visits Jack's room (where as discussed previously, she knows he'll find the shirts), but lets Ennis take the shirts (and indeed seems prepared for Ennis's return with a bag handily ready to hand to Ennis to put the shirts in), but invites Ennis to visit again.

There's an awful lot going on there, and a lot of complicated back-story for a character we see on screen only very briefly, and in some ways it's a pity we don't know more about her and her relationship with Jack. That scene at the Twist ranch is obviously very difficult for Ennis, but I think it's difficult for Mrs Twist also, and in her final question (almost pleading?) to Ennis where she asks if he'll come back and visit again, I feel strongly that she sees Ennis as a link with her Jack, and would like to get to know more about Jack's life, through Ennis. I don't think it's ever said outright in the SS or the film, but I get the impression that after he moved to Texas, Jack didn't visit his parents that much (I know OMT talks about Jack's visits and about him talking about taking Ennis to the ranch and the two of them running the place, but I don't think he says how often he visited) and I think probably his mother feels she could regain some of that 'lost' time with Jack by talking to Ennis about him. 

[brokeplex]

maybe she didnt' tell him about the Pentecost because she knew about him (at some level) and couldnt' reconcile the love of her child with the 'you are going to hell' of her religion so she tried to compartmentalize them..keep them apart.

or, she actually discussed religion with Jack, and Jack attended sunday school and knew all about his mother's religion. in short, Jack was lying to Ennis, and he lied because he didn't want to discuss those religious beliefs at that moment.

[Artiste]

Merci Wayne !

Wonderfully said as you describe:
       Mothers don't always know.  too much generalization can confuse the issue.  And then they may know and not what to acknowleddge what they know. 

Case in point.  I knew my son was gay before his mother did, and he was about 30 when this became apparent to her.  But there is a mitigating factor here.   I knew that I could have been as queer as a 3$ bill since I was 13, IF!!! I had met the right man under the right circumstances.  But in those days (I'm 75 YO) the right circumstances were very rare and the right man was as much in denial about what could be as I was.

                   

Pray that you are well and happy too now... these days! Did you find the right man ? Would his mother give you his shirts like Jack's mother did to Ennis? - May I ask?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[BlissC]

An equally valid point. Over the years Jack lies to Ennis a fair amount to "protect" him, though in this instance I think it would be definitely more about not risking upsetting the apple-cart and freaking Ennis out by bringing religion into the mix, because I think by that time (the Pentecost discussion) at some level they were both aware that something was happening.

My mother bought my husband an aftershave a few years ago, that for me can only be worn by one person. I nearly freaked when I saw the bottle.It was just wrong.I had to bite my tongue,and wait for it to be empty.

I'm the same. An old college friend of mine from years back who really helped me out and helped me sort my head out always wore Obsession aftershave, and even now, nearly 20 years later if I smell that I think of him.

[Marge_Innavera]

That's an interesting idea. I've often thought before that it's very telling that Jack tells Ennis about his understanding of what the Pentecost is and then there's the line about "fellas like you and me marchin' off to hell", but I never really got beyond that and considered why his mother didn't tell him about the Pentecost. From the little Jack says about her and a couple of things from the scene at the ranch with Jack's parents after his death it's obvious she's a very religious lady, and yet as you say, it seems strange that she didn't tell Jack about the Penecost.

I've also wondered if she had been raised Pentacostal and had not attended church for many years -- maybe just because of the amount of work she had to do and the distances involved, she'd drifted away from organized religion and kept her personal faith.  With the absence of a religious community, she might well have neglected to tell Jack about any but the most basic things. That might have been due to either isolation, having drifted away from her own beliefs over the years but still clinging to the religious identity, or both.

For recent times at any rate, that isn't unusual.  Polls of Americans' religious beliefs indicate a high level of personal belief but a steady growth in the "unchurched."

As far as Jack's relationship with Ennis is concerned, I can't imagine a woman of that generation and background actively or consciously approving of it. However, the idea of Jack being back on the ranch permanently and working with a 'friend', however she wanted to think about it, to get the ranch back in shape might well have been a dream of her own.  As a species, we seem to be set up to reconcile contradictory beliefs very efficiently when the motive is strong enough.

[Mandy21]

As far as Jack's relationship with Ennis is concerned, I can't imagine a woman of that generation and background actively or consciously approving of it. However, the idea of Jack being back on the ranch permanently and working with a 'friend', however she wanted to think about it, to get the ranch back in shape might well have been a dream of her own.  As a species, we seem to be set up to reconcile contradictory beliefs very efficiently when the motive is strong enough.

Hey Marge, I love the way you worded that sentiment.  My immediate reaction when watching that scene was that Jack's mom DID understand what had gone on between the two men.  But then the more I thought about her religious nature, I questioned that reaction.  I've always been confused about this scene.  I'd like to believe that she knew and was understanding, even in opposition to OMT's NOT understanding.  It seems set up that way, by Ang's camera angles of the two, directly in opposition to each other -- one in the background, and the better one, i.e., Mrs. Twist, in the foreground, semi-shaking her head, as if to say, "don't pay him no never-mind". 

I don't know much about religion, never been to church in my life, hardly read any of the Bible, and don't have the first clue what the Pentecost was.  Maybe we should analyze more why Jack presumed to tell Ennis what he *thought* the Pentecost was, rather than admitting fully that he didn't have a clue?  And why would he be singing that song around the campfire, when he surely must have known a whole lot of non-religious songs?  Hmmmm, this has got me thinking now in a whole new direction.  He could have sang "get a long, little doggie" or any other campfire tune.  Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?

[Artiste]

Merci Mandy!

May I say: Of course, Jack's mother knows that Ennis loves Jack!

Likewise for Mr. Twist - Jack's father, you think?


Au revoir,
hugs!

[BlissC]

Hey Marge, I love the way you worded that sentiment.  My immediate reaction when watching that scene was that Jack's mom DID understand what had gone on between the two men.  But then the more I thought about her religious nature, I questioned that reaction.  I've always been confused about this scene.  I'd like to believe that she knew and was understanding, even in opposition to OMT's NOT understanding.  It seems set up that way, by Ang's camera angles of the two, directly in opposition to each other -- one in the background, and the better one, i.e., Mrs. Twist, in the foreground, semi-shaking her head, as if to say, "don't pay him no never-mind". 

That's a really good point. I guess because we want Mrs Twist to have some understanding of Jack, and Jack's relationship with Ennis, it's easy to believe that she did have some understanding - especially in the face of OMT's obvious lack of understanding, but when you look at it more deeply, as Marge says, on the other hand it's difficult to imagine a woman of her generation approving. I guess anything's possible though. Despite her religious beliefs, alsorts of things could have shaped her views and opinions - perhaps things that on the outside don't seem significant.

Take my grandmothers for example. There was only a year between the two of them and both had similar upbringings in small villages that my grandad used to describe as "parochial", and both were raised as church-goers. On one side of the family though, my dad's mother, who died last year at 84, I could never have imagined discussing BBM with her. She had enough of a problem accepting sex outside marriage, so what she'd have made of a story about two gay cowboys, I don't know! On the other hand though, my mum's step-mother has a totally different outlook on so many things, and we discuss many things I could never have discussed with my other grandmother. She's never had a problem with my uncle being gay, and has always accepted him and his partner. 

I don't know much about religion, never been to church in my life, hardly read any of the Bible, and don't have the first clue what the Pentecost was.  Maybe we should analyze more why Jack presumed to tell Ennis what he *thought* the Pentecost was, rather than admitting fully that he didn't have a clue?  And why would he be singing that song around the campfire, when he surely must have known a whole lot of non-religious songs?  Hmmmm, this has got me thinking now in a whole new direction.  He could have sang "get a long, little doggie" or any other campfire tune.  Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?

Hmmm...that's an interesting one. If I remember rightly the SS describes it as a "dirge" (Dictionary.com: "1. a funeral song or tune, or one expressing mourning in commemoration of the dead; 2. any composition resembling such a song or tune in character, as a poem of lament for the dead or solemn, mournful music".) There is something almost prophetic about it - infact all through the story with their constant goodbyes (Ain't never enough time...*sigh*) there are constant reminders of the shortness of their time together, and I remember the first time I saw the film at the cinema, all the way through there seemed to be constant hints of something bad coming, and infact that was my overriding feeling from about mid way through the film - I knew something was coming and I knew it was something bad, and whatever it was I didn't want to know. It was almost like the words in the SS AP uses when they're coming down off Brokeback, a "headlong, irreversible fall". It's like Annie Proux and Ang Lee were giving us clues all the way through.

[Artiste]

Jack must have told his mother about the blood... when she was to wash it?

[LauraGigs]

Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?

Wow!  What a great observation.   One can discuss symbolic elements of this film for years, and yet there's always something new to read...

Great thread and great posts, everybody.

[optom3]

Hey Marge, I love the way you worded that sentiment.  My immediate reaction when watching that scene was that Jack's mom DID understand what had gone on between the two men.  But then the more I thought about her religious nature, I questioned that reaction.  I've always been confused about this scene.  I'd like to believe that she knew and was understanding, even in opposition to OMT's NOT understanding.  It seems set up that way, by Ang's camera angles of the two, directly in opposition to each other -- one in the background, and the better one, i.e., Mrs. Twist, in the foreground, semi-shaking her head, as if to say, "don't pay him no never-mind". 

I don't know much about religion, never been to church in my life, hardly read any of the Bible, and don't have the first clue what the Pentecost was.  Maybe we should analyze more why Jack presumed to tell Ennis what he *thought* the Pentecost was, rather than admitting fully that he didn't have a clue?  And why would he be singing that song around the campfire, when he surely must have known a whole lot of non-religious songs?  Hmmmm, this has got me thinking now in a whole new direction.  He could have sang "get a long, little doggie" or any other campfire tune.  Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?

I had never really given Jack's choce of song much thought before.In the s.s Ennis also sings a song called "strawberry roan" which is presumably about a horse.We know from later in the story that horses are one of the few things that Ennis feels any empathy with, as in the reunion scene, he says "little darlin" to Jack, an endearment he keeps solely for his horses and daughters.
Specifically referring to the s.s here,does the choice of song by Ennis reveal, (comming as it does after the paw the white out of the moon section,) that  even if it is only at a subconcious level, he is starting to fall in love with Jack?
The choice of song by Jack could have a few meanings I think.Maybe as it refers to water walking Jesus, Jack is hoping for some miracle for himself,to bring Ennis to him.It could also be a portent of things to come.As with Ennis it could  be his subconcious, connecting his mother, who I think he loved,and sung the hymn to him, with Ennis who he has started to fall in love with.
So many permutations possible with just 2 songs. The romantic in me, likes to think, that in the s.s the choice of music by the two is a further indication that they are being drawn more and more to each other, at some very deep level. It cannot be coincidence that it is that night where they first come together.

[Mandy21]

I had never really given Jack's choce of song much thought before.In the s.s Ennis also sings a song called "strawberry roan" which is presumably about a horse.We know from later in the story that horses are one of the few things that Ennis feels any empathy with, as in the reunion scene, he says "little darlin" to Jack, an endearment he keeps solely for his horses and daughters.
Specifically referring to the s.s here,does the choice of song by Ennis reveal, (comming as it does after the paw the white out of the moon section,) that  even if it is only at a subconcious level, he is starting to fall in love with Jack?
The choice of song by Jack could have a few meanings I think.Maybe as it refers to water walking Jesus, Jack is hoping for some miracle for himself,to bring Ennis to him.It could also be a portent of things to come.As with Ennis it could  be his subconcious, connecting his mother, who I think he loved,and sung the hymn to him, with Ennis who he has started to fall in love with.
So many permutations possible with just 2 songs. The romantic in me, likes to think, that in the s.s the choice of music by the two is a further indication that they are being drawn more and more to each other, at some very deep level. It cannot be coincidence that it is that night where they first come together.

Fiona, here are the lyrics to "Strawberry Roan" by Marty Robbins.  In the SS, Ennis is singing this to Jack.  You could say it was "presumably about a horse", but I think once you read the lyrics, you'll presume it's about something else, as I did.   

I was hangin' 'round town, just spendin' my time
Out of a job, not earnin' a dime
A feller steps up and he said, "I suppose
You're a bronc fighter from looks of your clothes."
"You figures me right, I'm a good one." I claim
"Do you happen to have any bad ones to tame?"
Said "He's got one, a bad one to buck
At throwin' good riders, he's had lots of luck."

I gets all het up and I ask what he pays
To ride this old nag for a couple of days
He offered me ten; I said, "I'm your man,
A bronc never lived that I couldn't span."
He said: "Get your saddle, I'll give you a chance"
In his buckboard we hopped and he drives to the ranch
I stayed 'til mornin' and right after chuck
I stepped out to see if this outlaw can buck.

Down in the horse corral standin' alone
Is an old Caballo, a Strawberry Roan
His legs are all spavined, he's got pigeon toes
Little pig eyes and a big Roman nose
Little pin ears that touched at the tip
A big 44 brand was on his left hip
U-necked and old, with a long, lower jaw
I could see with one eye, he's a regular outlaw.

I gets the blinds on 'im and it sure is a fright
Next comes the saddle and I screws it down tight
Then I steps on 'im and I raises the blinds
Get outta the way boys, he's gonna unwind
He sure is a frog-walker, he heaves a big sigh
He only lacks wings, for to be on the fly
He turns his old belly right up to the sun
He sure is a sun-fishin', son-of-a-gun.

He's about the worst bucker I've seen on the range
He'll turn on a Nickel and give you some change
He hits on all fours and goes up on high
Leaves me a spinnin' up there in the sky
I turns over twice and I comes back to earth
I lights in a cussin' the day of his birth
I know there are ponies that I cannot ride
There's some of them left, they haven't all died.

I'll bet all my money, the man ain't alive
That'll stay with Old Strawberry
When he makes his high dive.

And P.S.  the water-walking jesus lines were written by Larry McMurtry himself.  It's not a gospel song, it's just a couple of lines, but I have to say they're perfect for the situation, aren't they?

[optom3]

Thanks Mandy, well that puts a whole different perspective on it.In fact it seems even more of a come on to Jack now.Hmmm will have to go off and think of that one now !!
Water walking Jesus is mentioned in the s.s is it the take me away part tht as the add on ?

[BlissC]

Hmmm...you know I'd never paid that much attention to the actual songs (I guess knowing all the symbolism and everything that comes along with Brokeback I should have figured out that there'd have to be some significance to the choice of the songs before now  ). As Fiona says, it does seem like even more of a come on to Jack. Thanks for posting that Mandy.

[Mandy21]

You're welcome, BlissC.

That Annie, she's a clever old bird, isn't she ??

I honestly can't think of any combination of more clever people -- writer, screenwriter, director, actors -- to come together to make a film.  I've watched it more than 200 times all the way through, and yet there's still never a time that I don't pick up on some few seconds or some nuance that I had never noticed before.

Just the other day, I was telling Fiona to pay attention when Jack is laying on the hill after TS1, and Ennis approaches with his rifle in hand -- there's just less than a split second where Jack steels his jaw, prepared for whatever is about to happen, and then he relaxes it.  But we get to see that Jack is just laying there, seemingly calm and carefree as can be, BUT in that split second, if we're paying attention, we get to know what his worst fears might be.  Either he's going to be shot, or Ennis is going to say that's never going to happen again.  I think in that second Jack is prepared for both heartbreaking outcomes.  It is similar, to me, back on topic, to the split second when Ennis is sitting at the Twist table, after Jack's death, and OMT mentions "this other fella".  Again, we get to see, Ennis setting his jaw, almost identically to the way Jack had.  You can almost hear the words going through Jack and Ennis's heads at those times, just by the silly little gesture of how they set their jaws.  And you blink, and it's gone.

I think Annie, Diana, Larry, Ang, Heath, and Jake, not to mention the rest of the cast, were all on exactly the same wavelength, and I think that's one of the most important reasons that this movie resonates in all of us Brokies years and years later, and probably forever.

[BlissC]

I honestly can't think of any combination of more clever people -- writer, screenwriter, director, actors -- to come together to make a film....I think Annie, Diana, Larry, Ang, Heath, and Jake, not to mention the rest of the cast, were all on exactly the same wavelength, and I think that's one of the most important reasons that this movie resonates in all of us Brokies years and years later, and probably forever.

So true. I don't think there's ever been anything else I've ever read that's been so successfully transferred to the screen, and it's the fact that there are all those little nuances, things we never saw before, and all the symbolism and different interpretations associated with it that keep us coming back for more. The fact that Annie squeezed 20 years into 28 pages and did it so well is amazing, and that Ang and the screenwriters and cast translated all that without losing anything (and actually added more, without making any changes to the fundamentals of the story or the dialogue) is nothing short of a miracle.

[Artiste]

You say:
       Case in point.  I knew my son was gay before his mother did, and he was about 30 when this became apparent to her.  But there is a mitigating factor here.   I knew that I could have been as queer as a 3$ bill since I was 13, IF!!! I had met the right man under the right circumstances.  But in those days (I'm 75 YO) the right circumstances were very rare and the right man was as much in denial about what could be as I was.

               

I say:
Beautifully said and like your freedom !!

More please...

au revoir,
hugs!

[LauraGigs]

 
I love how her outfit matches J+E's shirts (solid blue over a plaid shirt), almost as if she's trying to give Ennis a clue.

[Monika]

 
I love how her outfit matches J+E's shirts (solid blue over a plaid shirt), almost as if she's trying to give Ennis a clue.

I´d never thought about that before. Amazing. Thanks Laura

[loneleeb3]

 
I love how her outfit matches J+E's shirts (solid blue over a plaid shirt), almost as if she's trying to give Ennis a clue.

Incredible observation friend!
You're a sharp one. I never would have picked up on that but it's almost obvious now that you mention it with the picture!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I never noticed that Laura, wow.

[Brown Eyes]

 
I love how her outfit matches J+E's shirts (solid blue over a plaid shirt), almost as if she's trying to give Ennis a clue.

OMG!!!  Laura!!!  That is an amazing observation... I'll echo Rich and Tru here.  It's just incredible how there are new things to observe after all this time.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

It is like she was identifying with them by wearing the two shirts, like she has seen them and she is sending Ennis a signal without her husband knowing anything.

[Brown Eyes]

It is like she was identifying with them by wearing the two shirts, like she has seen them and she is sending Ennis a signal without her husband knowing anything.

Yes, that make sense to me.  She seems to be trying to communicate with Ennis in many subtle and silent ways.  The hand on his shoulder and the gentle little push she gives him when she suggests he go upstairs.  Eye contact.  The subtle nod she gives to Ennis when she sees him come back down with the rolled-up shirts.

The use of costume there for Ma Twist is incredibly clever.  I can't believe I never noticed that. 

I think there are foreshadowing moments regarding the double shirts earlier in the movie too... but wow, this Ma Twist observation is so great.


I've always thought that things like the blue and tan jackets hanging together on Aguirre's coat stand might be foreshadowing about the double shirts.  But, Ma Twist's outfit is so much closer to the appearance of the actual paired shirts.  Very neat.



<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/4925911-ecc.jpg" border="0" />

[Monika]

I´m wondering if you think that Ennis called ahead, letting them know he was coming. Would it have been considered rude to just show up?

[Brown Eyes]

I´m wondering if you think that Ennis called ahead, letting them know he was coming. Would it have been considered rude to just show up?

That's a good question.  I bet he let them know he was coming.  They seemed to be expecting him...  Ma Twist seemed to be waiting for him.  I think it would be a little strange for him to drive all the way up there and visit them completely out of the blue.  Especially when expecting to deal with a sensitive subject like grieving, the ashes, etc.

[optom3]

I love this bumping of old threads. I have just finished reading through this one and now feel compelled to watch B.B.M again.

I had never before noticed Jack's mother and her pairing of solid blue over plaid. I am astounded now, how glaringly obvious it is, yet I completely missed it. How true the phrase, the devil's in the detail. Ang is a master of subtleties and nuance, nothing heavy handed or overplayed.

I suspect for me, one of the problems after the first viewing, is that I am so overwrought with emotion by this stage, that the remainder of the film is seen through a veil of tears.

I  remember the photo taken of all the Brokies at my house, immediately after watching BBM, still shell shocked after all this time.

I find myself these days, evaluating friendships on the basis of those who do and do not "get" BBM. I suspect that is why I have formed some of the most meaningful friendships of my life, since moving to Bettermost. I always thought I was an island, now I find I am not isolated, far from it.

Back to the shirts, I am even more convinced now that Jack's mum knew of their existence. If not then why the mirroring of apparel ? It would make no sense and I am positive that not one detail in this masterpiece is superfluous.

[Mandy21]

I  remember the photo taken of all the Brokies at my house, immediately after watching BBM, still shell shocked after all this time.

 

The exact reason why I captured that moment, Fi.  Was priceless, the look on all your faces, and if I hadn't been the hostess with the mostest trying to keep it all together, I'd have been right there, bawling my eyes out, curled up together, with you.

[optom3]

The exact reason why I captured that moment, Fi.  Was priceless, the look on all your faces, and if I hadn't been the hostess with the mostest trying to keep it all together, I'd have been right there, bawling my eyes out, curled up together, with you.

Well you did right !!! I have lost count of how many priceless Brokie moments I have had now.

[brokeplex]

I love how her outfit matches J+E's shirts (solid blue over a plaid shirt), almost as if she's trying to give Ennis a clue.

excellent observation! I totally missed this as well, and more and more we see the genius of Ang Lee's film.

[Delmardeb]

Amanda- I totally missed the blue and tan jackets hanging up in Aguirre's trailer. Thanks for the pic. No matter how many times I have watched the movie, it still amazes me when new things are discovered.

[Brown Eyes]

Amanda- I totally missed the blue and tan jackets hanging up in Aguirre's trailer. Thanks for the pic. No matter how many times I have watched the movie, it still amazes me when new things are discovered.

Thanks Deb.  Yep, sure enough there are always amazing new revelations it seems.   There are lots of interesting moments of Ennis and Jack rustling in closets and coat racks prominently included in various scenes.  I mean, even when Jack is introduced to Alma after the reunion kiss, Ennis and Jack are standing in front of a big coat rack.   And, that coat rack in Aguirre's office when Jack comes back looking for another job always caught my eye for the specific use of the blue and tan (so evocative of Jack and Ennis). I think there's probably a lot to analyze in some of the different coat rack/ closet details.



Anyway... I have another question about his particular shot of Ma Twist and Ennis... what is that object hanging on the wall behind Ma Twist near the door???  Does anyone know?  I've always wondered about that.