Author Topic: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts  (Read 23560 times)

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2008, 06:59:49 pm »
maybe she didnt' tell him about the Pentecost because she knew about him (at some level) and couldnt' reconcile the love of her child with the 'you are going to hell' of her religion so she tried to compartmentalize them..keep them apart.

or, she actually discussed religion with Jack, and Jack attended sunday school and knew all about his mother's religion. in short, Jack was lying to Ennis, and he lied because he didn't want to discuss those religious beliefs at that moment.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2008, 09:40:06 am »
Merci Wayne !

Wonderfully said as you describe:
       Mothers don't always know.  too much generalization can confuse the issue.  And then they may know and not what to acknowleddge what they know. 

Case in point.  I knew my son was gay before his mother did, and he was about 30 when this became apparent to her.  But there is a mitigating factor here.   I knew that I could have been as queer as a 3$ bill since I was 13, IF!!! I had met the right man under the right circumstances.  But in those days (I'm 75 YO) the right circumstances were very rare and the right man was as much in denial about what could be as I was.

                   


Pray that you are well and happy too now... these days! Did you find the right man ? Would his mother give you his shirts like Jack's mother did to Ennis? - May I ask?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BlissC

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
  • There ain't never enough time...
    • NeonBlue Dreams
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2008, 03:16:59 pm »
An equally valid point. Over the years Jack lies to Ennis a fair amount to "protect" him, though in this instance I think it would be definitely more about not risking upsetting the apple-cart and freaking Ennis out by bringing religion into the mix, because I think by that time (the Pentecost discussion) at some level they were both aware that something was happening.

My mother bought my husband an aftershave a few years ago, that for me can only be worn by one person. I nearly freaked when I saw the bottle.It was just wrong.I had to bite my tongue,and wait for it to be empty.

I'm the same. An old college friend of mine from years back who really helped me out and helped me sort my head out always wore Obsession aftershave, and even now, nearly 20 years later if I smell that I think of him.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2008, 05:01:22 pm »
That's an interesting idea. I've often thought before that it's very telling that Jack tells Ennis about his understanding of what the Pentecost is and then there's the line about "fellas like you and me marchin' off to hell", but I never really got beyond that and considered why his mother didn't tell him about the Pentecost. From the little Jack says about her and a couple of things from the scene at the ranch with Jack's parents after his death it's obvious she's a very religious lady, and yet as you say, it seems strange that she didn't tell Jack about the Penecost.

I've also wondered if she had been raised Pentacostal and had not attended church for many years -- maybe just because of the amount of work she had to do and the distances involved, she'd drifted away from organized religion and kept her personal faith.  With the absence of a religious community, she might well have neglected to tell Jack about any but the most basic things. That might have been due to either isolation, having drifted away from her own beliefs over the years but still clinging to the religious identity, or both.

For recent times at any rate, that isn't unusual.  Polls of Americans' religious beliefs indicate a high level of personal belief but a steady growth in the "unchurched."

As far as Jack's relationship with Ennis is concerned, I can't imagine a woman of that generation and background actively or consciously approving of it. However, the idea of Jack being back on the ranch permanently and working with a 'friend', however she wanted to think about it, to get the ranch back in shape might well have been a dream of her own.  As a species, we seem to be set up to reconcile contradictory beliefs very efficiently when the motive is strong enough.

Offline Mandy21

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,238
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2008, 05:46:15 pm »
As far as Jack's relationship with Ennis is concerned, I can't imagine a woman of that generation and background actively or consciously approving of it. However, the idea of Jack being back on the ranch permanently and working with a 'friend', however she wanted to think about it, to get the ranch back in shape might well have been a dream of her own.  As a species, we seem to be set up to reconcile contradictory beliefs very efficiently when the motive is strong enough.


Hey Marge, I love the way you worded that sentiment.  My immediate reaction when watching that scene was that Jack's mom DID understand what had gone on between the two men.  But then the more I thought about her religious nature, I questioned that reaction.  I've always been confused about this scene.  I'd like to believe that she knew and was understanding, even in opposition to OMT's NOT understanding.  It seems set up that way, by Ang's camera angles of the two, directly in opposition to each other -- one in the background, and the better one, i.e., Mrs. Twist, in the foreground, semi-shaking her head, as if to say, "don't pay him no never-mind". 

I don't know much about religion, never been to church in my life, hardly read any of the Bible, and don't have the first clue what the Pentecost was.  Maybe we should analyze more why Jack presumed to tell Ennis what he *thought* the Pentecost was, rather than admitting fully that he didn't have a clue?  And why would he be singing that song around the campfire, when he surely must have known a whole lot of non-religious songs????  Hmmmm, this has got me thinking now in a whole new direction.  He could have sang "get a long, little doggie" or any other campfire tune.  Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2008, 11:27:21 pm »
Merci Mandy!

May I say: Of course, Jack's mother knows that Ennis loves Jack!

Likewise for Mr. Twist - Jack's father, you think?


Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline BlissC

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
  • There ain't never enough time...
    • NeonBlue Dreams
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2008, 06:25:48 pm »
Hey Marge, I love the way you worded that sentiment.  My immediate reaction when watching that scene was that Jack's mom DID understand what had gone on between the two men.  But then the more I thought about her religious nature, I questioned that reaction.  I've always been confused about this scene.  I'd like to believe that she knew and was understanding, even in opposition to OMT's NOT understanding.  It seems set up that way, by Ang's camera angles of the two, directly in opposition to each other -- one in the background, and the better one, i.e., Mrs. Twist, in the foreground, semi-shaking her head, as if to say, "don't pay him no never-mind". 

That's a really good point. I guess because we want Mrs Twist to have some understanding of Jack, and Jack's relationship with Ennis, it's easy to believe that she did have some understanding - especially in the face of OMT's obvious lack of understanding, but when you look at it more deeply, as Marge says, on the other hand it's difficult to imagine a woman of her generation approving. I guess anything's possible though. Despite her religious beliefs, alsorts of things could have shaped her views and opinions - perhaps things that on the outside don't seem significant.

Take my grandmothers for example. There was only a year between the two of them and both had similar upbringings in small villages that my grandad used to describe as "parochial", and both were raised as church-goers. On one side of the family though, my dad's mother, who died last year at 84, I could never have imagined discussing BBM with her. She had enough of a problem accepting sex outside marriage, so what she'd have made of a story about two gay cowboys, I don't know! On the other hand though, my mum's step-mother has a totally different outlook on so many things, and we discuss many things I could never have discussed with my other grandmother. She's never had a problem with my uncle being gay, and has always accepted him and his partner. 

Quote
I don't know much about religion, never been to church in my life, hardly read any of the Bible, and don't have the first clue what the Pentecost was.  Maybe we should analyze more why Jack presumed to tell Ennis what he *thought* the Pentecost was, rather than admitting fully that he didn't have a clue?  And why would he be singing that song around the campfire, when he surely must have known a whole lot of non-religious songs????  Hmmmm, this has got me thinking now in a whole new direction.  He could have sang "get a long, little doggie" or any other campfire tune.  Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?

Hmmm...that's an interesting one. If I remember rightly the SS describes it as a "dirge" (Dictionary.com: "1. a funeral song or tune, or one expressing mourning in commemoration of the dead; 2. any composition resembling such a song or tune in character, as a poem of lament for the dead or solemn, mournful music".) There is something almost prophetic about it - infact all through the story with their constant goodbyes (Ain't never enough time...*sigh*) there are constant reminders of the shortness of their time together, and I remember the first time I saw the film at the cinema, all the way through there seemed to be constant hints of something bad coming, and infact that was my overriding feeling from about mid way through the film - I knew something was coming and I knew it was something bad, and whatever it was I didn't want to know. It was almost like the words in the SS AP uses when they're coming down off Brokeback, a "headlong, irreversible fall". It's like Annie Proux and Ang Lee were giving us clues all the way through.


"No matter how hard you try, You're still in prison, If ya born with wings and you never fly."

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2008, 06:43:12 pm »
Jack must have told his mother about the blood... when she was to wash it?

Offline LauraGigs

  • Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,447
    • My Design Portfolio
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2008, 12:20:15 am »
Quote from: Mandy21
Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?

Wow!  What a great observation.   One can discuss symbolic elements of this film for years, and yet there's always something new to read...

Great thread and great posts, everybody.

Offline optom3

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,638
Re: TOTW 23/08: Jack, his mother and The Shirts
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2008, 12:02:31 pm »
Hey Marge, I love the way you worded that sentiment.  My immediate reaction when watching that scene was that Jack's mom DID understand what had gone on between the two men.  But then the more I thought about her religious nature, I questioned that reaction.  I've always been confused about this scene.  I'd like to believe that she knew and was understanding, even in opposition to OMT's NOT understanding.  It seems set up that way, by Ang's camera angles of the two, directly in opposition to each other -- one in the background, and the better one, i.e., Mrs. Twist, in the foreground, semi-shaking her head, as if to say, "don't pay him no never-mind". 

I don't know much about religion, never been to church in my life, hardly read any of the Bible, and don't have the first clue what the Pentecost was.  Maybe we should analyze more why Jack presumed to tell Ennis what he *thought* the Pentecost was, rather than admitting fully that he didn't have a clue?  And why would he be singing that song around the campfire, when he surely must have known a whole lot of non-religious songs????  Hmmmm, this has got me thinking now in a whole new direction.  He could have sang "get a long, little doggie" or any other campfire tune.  Why did he choose "I know I'll meet you on that final day.  Water-walking Jesus, take me away."?  Should we have seen this as foreshadowing?

I had never really given Jack's choce of song much thought before.In the s.s Ennis also sings a song called "strawberry roan" which is presumably about a horse.We know from later in the story that horses are one of the few things that Ennis feels any empathy with, as in the reunion scene, he says "little darlin" to Jack, an endearment he keeps solely for his horses and daughters.
Specifically referring to the s.s here,does the choice of song by Ennis reveal, (comming as it does after the paw the white out of the moon section,) that  even if it is only at a subconcious level, he is starting to fall in love with Jack?
The choice of song by Jack could have a few meanings I think.Maybe as it refers to water walking Jesus, Jack is hoping for some miracle for himself,to bring Ennis to him.It could also be a portent of things to come.As with Ennis it could  be his subconcious, connecting his mother, who I think he loved,and sung the hymn to him, with Ennis who he has started to fall in love with.
So many permutations possible with just 2 songs. The romantic in me, likes to think, that in the s.s the choice of music by the two is a further indication that they are being drawn more and more to each other, at some very deep level. It cannot be coincidence that it is that night where they first come together.