The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments

[serious crayons]

I just watched the "I love you" scene about 10 times, and definitely see the mouth twitch, twitch, twitch that could be it.  I couldn't hear it though.  I will watch it again in a a quieter place.

As a big proponent of "I love you," I'll admit that the three twitches are nearly all there is to go on. With my volume at 63 (highest it will go) and my face inches from the screen, I can just make out three audible murmurings muffled by shirt cloth and almost drowned out by music. Definitely one-syllable words, though admittedly they could be just about any three words in any language. But why else would his mouth twitch exactly three times, and what else would he mutter under the circumstances? "So this is where my damn shirt went" is too many syllables.

The immediate cutoff a split second later strikes me as another clue.

Unless someone has better audio/visual equipment than mine, this may always require a leap of faith. But having decided for myself that it's "I love you," I'm like you are, Clarissa, with the "fuck me" -- I can't see it any other way.

[wolf]

"So this is where my damn shirt went"

/quote]

 

now you've got me thinking up three word alternatives.

Jack Fucking Twist?
This Shirt Stinks?
Ennis is Gay?

seriously, I agree regarding the immediate cut-off.  it's highly suggestive of An Important Moment. which would, of course, be Ennis' 20 year wait to say the magic words.

JakeTwist, no salt then  . 

W

[Brown Eyes]

The "fuck me, fuck me" I absolutely heard, clear as a bell.  It goes like this: Ennis spits in his hand, groans as he enters Jack, Jack groans and then says, "fuck me, fuck me."  I have watched this scene a time or two hundred, and never heard it til now, but now I can't NOT hear it.  I still can't see the handholding/reach around/cylinder, my DVD is way too dark.

Heya,
Well, hmmm, once you have a chance to see a brighter DVD I'm sure you'll see the "hand holding" clear as a bell too... especially on a full screen edition. 

I KNOW!  I hear the "fuck me, fuck me" these days too.  I wish I didn't hear them though... I much prefer the idea that this all happened in silence (other than Ennis's early "what are you doing").   I think it's interesting because you can still make those lines sound like groans if you really concentrate and want it to be that way.
 

[serious crayons]

I still can't see the handholding/reach around/cylinder, my DVD is way too dark.
 Why do we care so much?  Who are we?

Clarissa, in answer to your first comment, if all else fails and you are intent on seeing the handholding, try "4 Nights in 20 Years." That's where I first saw it (in the days when I was getting by with YouTube in lieu of a DVD). If you've got a letterbox DVD, it may be impossible.

In answer to your second question,  The whole thing is very mysterious, isn't it?

In answer to your third,  also. After coffee with Celeste this morning, I'm still wondering, because it sounded like she felt sort of the same. Why are we like this?

[welliwont]

I still can't see the handholding/reach around/cylinder, my DVD is way too dark.

Hi Clarissa, I can't stand it any more, can you please tell me what you mean by writing "cylinder"?  I know about the handholding, because I have the Fullscreen DVD and it is easier to see it than in the Widescreen DVD (which I also have, or course,  being the full-fledged self-respecting gyllenhaalic brokie that I am  )

so what is cyiinder?

I just spent an hour and fifteen minutes on this one thread  - and the important videographic research.    Why do we care so much?  Who are we?

I had begun a reply to these two questions, but I did not finish it and my comp ate it all up, so now I am going to answer your  questions with a related post (sort of) instead.

Here is a post from TOB, I find it interesting how diametrically opposed this person's impression of BBM is to mine, and to the rest of the brokies(?)

  What is the point of this film...?    
  by - james_norman1981 (Thu Jun 1 2006 09:26:07 )    
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Please read this piece before commenting on it as the above, albeit fairly inflammatory, subject heading is a genuine question.

I watched BBM for the first time last night and thought it was very good: amazing cinematography, two excellent leads (Heath Ledger particularly impressive) and lots of great things... but what exactly is the point of this film?

Is it trying to make us aware that homosexuality is not a sin? In this day and age it seems to be on an equal with heterosexuality. Is it just a love story between two people? If so it's awfully depressing, suggesting that the two leads can never change themselves quite enough to accomodate their relationship and that the places they live will never change during their lifetime to allow their love. Is it just meant to be a story that wasn't supposed to have any deep and meaningful meaning? In that case it's not really worth watching in my opinion...

My main problem with this film, other than the length which I thought was a bit self indulgent, is that it seems to be the opposite of an oil painting... minute examination of the individual components, such as the scenes, the music, the cinematography, the characterization and the acting, reveals brilliant thing after brilliant thing. However, if you take a step back and look at the film as a whole, it doesn't seem to add up to much in my opinion. It's as if Ang Lee and his crew created a very abstract sculpture out of the most incredibly beautiful and expensive building blocks they could find. You find yourself being blinded by those blocks but, when asked about the sculpture itself, you just get a vague feeling that there was some obvious thing about it you didn't understand but you don't want to say that and appear ignorant and/or homophobic... so you just focus on how great the building blocks were.

Anyhow, this is just my opinion and I'd love to hear whether anyone else had the same feeling or some explanations as to the message this film was trying to suggest which I somehow missed. I liked BBM a fair bit, particularly the various aspects I've already discribed, I just can't help feeling there's something I missed to make the whole seem more complete. Am I just over analysing this movie, have I missed something or does anyone else have the same problem?[/email]

and his follow-up post:

Thanks for your replies    
  by - james_norman1981 (Fri Jun 2 2006 04:43:11 )    
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Dear all,

Thank you for replying to my query levelly and intelligently. From your comments I believe that there was no big message I failed to see in BBM and that, to my mind, it is therefore not quite as great a film as I'd been led to expect.

I also had a number of replies to some of the questions posed by rayminhu. Unfortunately, a rather epic comment on the nature of societal peer pressure on the viewing public for such films as BBM, Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan has been deleted thanks to a power cut, so you've been spared my self indulgence!

Therefore, much quicker than before (as I have to get back to work), I'll try and offer some replies.

"Is it trying to make us aware that homosexuality is not a sin? In this day and age it seems to be on an equal with heterosexuality."

This comment was not intended to hold homsexuality up as a sin but to ask what was the point of a film telling us about the extremely puritanical attitude visited on homosexuals in the 1960's when, in the 2000's our attitude is one of tolerance in the majority? I had far more eloquent and intelligent arguments than that but, sadly, I haven't really got time to try and think them up again. My own view is that homosexuality should not only be tolerated by the majority it should be unacceptable to be intolerant towards it (again, not very eloquent or farsighted but time waits for no man).

"I don't understand how the length can be "self indulgent." Please elaborate."

Film pacing is vital to any movie. Longer than average films must give their audience some sort of payoff, whether emotional, visual or what have you. BBM didn't do this for me (damn power cuts, I wish I could try and argue this properly!).

"A film can be well made in every respect and not appeal to you. A lot of well-made films are quite boring, in my opinion."

"Just don't feel like you have to like the movie merely because it's well made, or that its individual parts come together harmoniously, or that everyone else is praising it. Likewise, don't feel like you have to find flaws in the film merely because it didn't register with you as it apparently did with a lot of others."

I'll take these two points together (and at warp speed). BBM, Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan are all films where the tide of public and critical opinion in favour of these movies meant that anyone who said they didn't like them was labelled homophobic, anti-semetic [spelling?], unpatriotic or what have you. This means that, when you see the film, you're automatically looking to like it for fear that your liberal peers will castigate you if you say otherwise... However, I wasn't quite prepared to accept this in BBM's case (as I am older and more comfortable in my opinions and attitudes, in so much as they're not fascist, compared to when the other two first came out), hence my question 'What is the point of this film...?'

Anyhow, must go now. I know my points are rather scattergorical and (perhaps) irrelevent, however, if any of you read this and reply, I'd be delighted to try and go through them in more detail (and more intelligence) at a later date when I have time!

Byefornow.

PS None of the comments posted on this thread have labelled me at all homophobic or what have you and are all very level headed and intelligent. However, there is certainly a sense of 'us and them' with regards to liking this film: many of the antiBBM crowd are horendously homophobic and even fascist while some of the pro crowd regard the film as the greatest work ever etc. etc. My comments (particularly this one) are merely to ask why has itbecome so hard to find a middle way?

Thanks for reading.

PS:  Here is a link to the complete thread at IMDb:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/44718471

[serious crayons]

JakeTwist, re cylinder, I know you asked this of Ellemeno but while I'm here I'm happy to answer it, hoping she doesn't mind. Some people have suggested that, in the handholding scene, Ennis is holding onto some other part of Jack. "Cylindrical" was Daphne7661's polite way of describing, back on page 4, the object she glimpsed.

Re James Norman's posts, he sounds reasonable enough. But he is very wrong in his assumption that people love BBM because of external pressure. I can speak only for myself, but social pressure (or desire to appear unhomophobic) had nothing to do with my reaction. Before I saw it, I had read the story and the glowing reviews, and realized it would probably be good. Still, I didn't hurry out to see it. I guess I assumed it would be sort of preachy, and (like James Norman, apparently) I already felt like a member of the choir. Or something. Anyway, one night in late January I was going to a movie alone, and chose Brokeback mainly because it best fit my schedule.

I came out of the theater feeling like my life had changed. And it had! At that point, I didn't even understand or fully appreciate all the "beautiful and expensive building blocks" he talks about, nor was I focusing on any particular "message." I just knew I loved it, felt both devastated and enthralled, thought about it constantly, had to keep seeing it. Before that, I had never seen any movie more than a few times -- I've since seen BBM 13 more times. I've never posted on a movie message board before, at imdb or elsewhere. Five months later, I still spend hours here each day. Who in their right mind does that in order to appear PC? (Who in their right mind does it for any reason, I often ask myself, but that's another topic.)

James Norman just doesn't get it.

[belbbmfan]

I can speak only for myself, but social pressure (or desire to appear unhomophobic) had nothing to do with my reaction.

Couldn't agree more.

I came out of the theater feeling like my life had changed. And it had! At that point, I didn't even understand or fully appreciate all the "beautiful and expensive building blocks" he talks about, nor was I focusing on any particular "message." I just knew I loved it, felt both devastated and enthralled, thought about it constantly, had to keep seeing it. Before that, I had never seen any movie more than a few times -- I've since seen BBM 13 more times. I've never posted on a movie message board before, at imdb or elsewhere. Five months later, I still spend hours here each day. Who in their right mind does that in order to appear PC? (Who in their right mind does it for any reason, I often ask myself, but that's another topic.)

I wish I could say 'you took the words right out of my mouth'. Thank you for once again putting into beautiful words what this movie means to me.

[Mikaela]

Orignally from James_Norman
I thought was a bit self indulgent, is that it seems to be the opposite of an oil painting... minute examination of the individual components, such as the scenes, the music, the cinematography, the characterization and the acting, reveals brilliant thing after brilliant thing. However, if you take a step back and look at the film as a whole, it doesn't seem to add up to much in my opinion. It's as if Ang Lee and his crew created a very abstract sculpture out of the most incredibly beautiful and expensive building blocks they could find.

I found this interesting because it describes the exact opposite of my reaction. It was the whole, the total experience of the film, that blew me away and made me walk around completely and utterly dazed for days. Even though I knew a lot about the film beforehand, even though I had read the short story multiple times, and therefore really didn't expect to be so *completely* devastated by the film.

In order to understand that overwhelming impact of the whole on me, I've since been looking into, discussing in minute detail and trying to understand those various building blocks that James Norman talks about. But however exquisite and perfect each of them is; - the acting, the careful symbolism, the intentional ambiguity, the cinematography etc - I still find that the total, the film's overall impact on me, is so much *more* than can be explained through the mere sum of those impressive parts.

[welliwont]

Ok, now I am at work and I cannot spend too long on this post, but here goes:

I posted james_norman 1981’s two comments to contrast a difference of opinion about our beloved BBM.  The human race is a funny thing, all I can say is his response is the most surprising to me of any I have read so far.  Our reactions could not be further apart… are we even the same species?    I guess this just re-enforces to me the fact that our reaction to BBM is a function of the nucleus of our soul and of our life experiences.

JakeTwist, re cylinder, I know you asked this of Ellemeno but while I'm here I'm happy to answer it, hoping she doesn't mind. Some people have suggested that, in the handholding scene, Ennis is holding onto some other part of Jack. "Cylindrical" was Daphne7661's polite way of describing, back on page 4, the object she glimpsed.

Hi Katherine, thanks for answering....  ok, I have watched this scene more than anyone else on the planet, but I see my research is not complete!     I will have to re-visit this scene again when I get home tonight, but if memory serves, IMO it did not look like Ennis' hand reached that far...  it looks like Jack grabs Ennis' hand, I did not see what Daphne glimpsed.  ... can't wait to see it on the big screen again!!

J

[serious crayons]

Well, JakeTwist, all I can say is that I have watched the scene in search of the cylinder and haven't seen it either. But please report back your findings ...

And back to James Norman, I'm glad you posted his opinions. As I said, he seems reasonable enough, and since he's willing to analyze his own response (or lack thereof) the contrast gives us a jumping-off point in analyzing our own. Thanks for your nice comment, belbbmfan, and Mikaela, let me extend the same compliment to you. It's like you have looked inside my head -- that's exactly how I've felt for the past five months. (Oh my god, is it really FIVE MONTHS I've been like this?! I'm nothin and nowhere -- except online discussing a movie for hours each day?)

I implore everybody involved in this discussion (and everybody else, too!) to check out the thread I just started on this topic: "Why are we like this?" I would love to understand more about this issue. Maybe the thread should be called "Why is Brokeback Mountain like this?" The question being, what is it about the movie, or us, that has this effect?