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BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum  |  Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond  |  Brokeback Mountain Open Forum (Moderators: serious crayons, Penthesilea, LauraGigs)  |  Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments 0 Residents and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments  (Read 27029 times)
southendmd
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« Reply #290 on: June 15, 2017, 07:33:26 pm »

I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts.  

I hear a hint of breath.  I suspect one can project onto this something more.

However, if he indeed said it, it is not to Jack nor to the shirts.  He knows Jack is gone.  Rather, I think he's saying it to himself, admitting it to himself, touched by the revelation of the shirts themselves.
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« Reply #291 on: June 15, 2017, 09:37:23 pm »

I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts. 

that is a great expression!
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« Reply #292 on: June 16, 2017, 07:02:47 pm »

I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts.  

I hear a hint of breath.  I suspect one can project onto this something more.

When I first became a believer, on about my ninth or tenth viewing, it wasn't that I heard it but felt I saw him mouth the words.

OT, but I remember when I first saw the word S-E-X spelled out in The Lion King. I vaguely remembered, but had barely paid attention to at the time, some protests when the film first came out and Christian groups complained about it. At the time, I didn't believe it. Years later, my sons watched the video constantly. I had probably seen it, or parts of it, more times than I've seen BBM, when one day I was casually watching it with them and there's a part where Simba flops down on the ground and a cloud of dust swirls up around him and, for about a quarter of a second, particles form the word SEX. "There it is!" I cried,  leaping off the couch. Or maybe I didn't actually do that so as not to have to explain to my sons. In any case, that was definitely my reaction when I saw the "I love you."

Quote
However, if he indeed said it, it is not to Jack nor to the shirts.  He knows Jack is gone.  Rather, I think he's saying it to himself, admitting it to himself, touched by the revelation of the shirts themselves.

Right. I didn't so much mean he's literally saying it to the shirts, like, "I love you -- I've always liked the look of a nice chambray."

He's verbally admitting to himself something he always knew deep down but was never able to say aloud when Jack was alive.


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southendmd
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« Reply #293 on: June 17, 2017, 11:08:47 am »

"I love you -- I've always liked the look of a nice chambray."

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
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southendmd
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« Reply #294 on: June 17, 2017, 12:50:08 pm »

Phew.  I just read through this entire thread.  I hadn't participated the first time around, mostly because I didn't have a reliable computer back then. Plus, there were SO many things being discussed.  Just look at how many replies occurred just in one day back then! 

The scientist in me appreciates Doug's (2robots4u) approach in asking his police detective friends to use their equipment to separate out voices from other stuff. 

Here it is:

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« Reply #295 on: June 17, 2017, 12:50:39 pm »

Hi all...as I said a number of posts above, I asked a detective friend in a major police department to review certain scenes for me.  I received the results a week ago, but due to time, was just able to get the response ready for posting.

His name is John and he told his partners what he was doing and 2 of them wanted to help out, so this turned out far better than I expected.  None of the 3 had seen the movie, so I asked that they not view the entire movie first, but to review only specific scenes, then view it in one sweep.

For ease of identification I will use the first initial of all people involved, including characters:

Both male detectives are John; my friend is gay so he is GJ, the other is straight-SJ, and Magaret is M.  Jack-J, Ennis-E, Alma-A, Alma Jr.-Jr., Randall-R, Lureen-Lu, Lashawn-La.

Each of the 3 purchased a DVD individually soas not to get 2 from the same place, ending up with 2 full screen, and 1 wide screen.  Typical police investigative techniques were employeed.

TS1:  a.  some viewers reported J and E were holding hands.  No, not in the
             traditional sense.  During the sex act, E places his right hand on top
             of the back of J right hand, where it remains until the act ends.
        b.  Many viewers claim to see J place E hand on his (J) crotch.  After both
             E and J have sat up, and before J starts to remove his jacket, they
             move their hands around a lot trying to establish a hold on each other.
             In this struggle, E places his left hand on J left forearm; J begins to move
             his arm down and we see some shoulder movement by J.  The rest is
             out of the viewer's range, below the bottom edge of the film.  But by
             the process of extrapolation, and the "moment of  content" view on
             E face, all 3 analysts agree that it is 99% possible that it did occur.
         c.  When the "Fuck me" line was first mentioned, a few viewers stated
              they heard it, but as it got more momentum, more and more claim to
              have heard it.  After removing all sound from the film, except voice
              prints, all 3 analysists agree that it is non-existent.

TS2:  The big question is who speaks, and what is said?  There is only 1 voice
         print in this scene, and he says "I'M sorry" followed by "It's all right, it's
         all right.  Lie back, Come on".  That voice belongs to J.

Reunion Kiss:  This scene was analyzed from the moment E begins to descend
                    the stairs, until he starts back up to introduce J.  Again, all
                    sound, except voice prints, are removed, and both voices are
                    heard, but only 1 statement each:  J says "Son of a bitch" as     
                    they embrace.  E looks around for "spys", grabs J by the shirt,
                    begins to push him to the stairwell, and says "Come here".
                    Nothing else is there, specifically "later" by E as they separate,
                    as was suggeted and affirmed to by several viewers.

Closet scene:  This is perhaps the most controvertial scene in the movie, as to
                     what was said/not said.  The scene was alalyzed from the time
                     E starts up the stairs, to the time he reappears in the kitchen.
                     All sound, except voice prints, were removed and there is nothing
                     there, as agreed to by all 3 analysts.

A personal comment here on this scene: 1. I can't begin to imagine E saying such a thing when he has never said endearing comments to J before, not commented back to J upon hearing J says something endearing to him.  It just simply is not in E character to do something like that. 2.  With as much detail to subtitling (crow cawing, crickets chirrping, clink of buckle, among others), how could they have missed "I love you" if it was said?  How did they overlook perhaps the most significant line in the movie? This is my sole basis for not believing E said anything in this scene in the first place.   

Benefit Dance Scene:  This scene was the more difficult to analyze because so
                    much is going on at one time.  M and GJ both agreed that to
                    understand who says what to whom, you have to pay close
                    attention to vocal tones (is it sultry, just plain talk, downright
                    nasty, sarcasism, or in a jocking manner), voice inflextions (the rise and fall
                    of syllables and  key expressions), and eye movement. J eyes dart
                    around a lot from Lu to La to R, and to off in the distance, but at
                    the moment when he says "You want to dance?" he is looking
                    directly at La.  SJ agrees to this, but adds that R responds as if
                    HE were asked.  M and GJ respond that R is suprised that J asks
                    La to dance, the reason for the look on his face, and then the
                    look he give La when she accepts.  After a few more runs through
                    the machine, SJ finally agrees that J most definitely asks La to
                    dance, but is still questioning the reaction of R.

So there you have it.  Please remember the expression "Don't kill the messenger."

Doug


   
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« Reply #296 on: June 17, 2017, 02:00:24 pm »

Quote
Closet scene:  This is perhaps the most controvertial scene in the movie, as to
                     what was said/not said.  The scene was alalyzed from the time
                     E starts up the stairs, to the time he reappears in the kitchen.
                     All sound, except voice prints, were removed and there is nothing
                     there, as agreed to by all 3 analysts.

A personal comment here on this scene: 1. I can't begin to imagine E saying such a thing when he has never said endearing comments to J before, not commented back to J upon hearing J says something endearing to him.  It just simply is not in E character to do something like that. 2.  With as much detail to subtitling (crow cawing, crickets chirrping, clink of buckle, among others), how could they have missed "I love you" if it was said?  How did they overlook perhaps the most significant line in the movie? This is my sole basis for not believing E said anything in this scene in the first place. 


Well, 2robots4u's documentation is nothing if not thorough. But again, I'm willing to believe there's no sound -- as I recall, I lip-read it. True, I haven't watched the movie in 10 years (10 years -- damn!) so take that into account.

But to be blunt (sorry and with all due respect, 2robots4u, if you're lurking) I think his comment No. 1 is lame. Since when are we supposed to take Ennis' external words and behaviors as reflecting his innermost thoughts and feelings? The fact that they don't is practically the whole point of the movie.

Ennis communicates mostly in nonverbal subtleties: His wistful gaze into the distance in the "breaking my back" paving scene, his reaction to Jack's first postcard, his beer guzzling and chain smoking while waiting for Jack to arrive, his nervous glance at the truck going past when Jack drives up from Texas to see him, the very fact that he lets Jack's endearments go unanswered. Or he communicates in metaphorical subtleties: the bear, the cookware floating downriver, the pie in the bus station, the little carved horse, the trailer filled with knives and fans and a coffee pot. When he tells Jack his "sending up a prayer of thanks" is about Jack not bringing his harmonica, are we supposed to take that at face value? "Hunh, I would have thought it had something to do with seeing Jack again, but I guess he just really hates harmonica music."

Of course not. When Jack was alive, Ennis would never, ever say "I love you." He probably wouldn't even let that idea enter his own consciousness. But here we are at the absolute emotional climax of the whole movie -- just after Ennis has told Mr. and Mrs. Twist point blank that he and Jack was good friends, even when it's clear both parents know exactly what kind of friends they was -- and now, with Jack gone forever so it's too late, he finds what is unquestionably the most powerful metaphorical object of the whole movie. In that context, it seems quite possible that he would finally let the thought seep into his brain, that he might even allow himself to silently mumble the words. No, he's not going to shout it from the rooftops or even blurt it out clearly and audibly, or ever ever tell anyone else ever.

If he had -- if he'd said it loud enough for it to be ringingly clear-- the scene would topple into melodrama and sentimentality. It would be like a soap opera scene. It's already pushing the boundaries with the powerful shirts, but Heath mostly undercuts that with a low-key performance that still registers a terrible mixture of grief and regret. In that context, the line could only work if it remained so subtle and ambiguous as to have people still debating it more than 10 years later.  Grin

I think if anything this scene should be analyzed by someone extremely skilled in lip reading.


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« Reply #297 on: June 18, 2017, 03:37:23 pm »

I've never heard the "I love you", and never really believed it was there even though people claimed to have heard it.

I have also never seen that post about the forensic examination before, it's most enlightening!
Thanks for finding it, Paul.

Seems it pretty much settles certain 10 year old disputes!  Cheesy
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Itís a movie about love that knows no boundaries and loneliness that knows no relief

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milomorris
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« Reply #298 on: June 18, 2017, 04:10:39 pm »

When I first became a believer, on about my ninth or tenth viewing, it wasn't that I heard it but felt I saw him mouth the words.

Same here. When I first read about the "I love you," I honestly thought I had missed something. So I replayed the scene over and over many times. While I could not say that I heard it, I could see that the words might be there from the motion of Heath's mouth.
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« Reply #299 on: June 18, 2017, 07:18:19 pm »

Same here. When I first read about the "I love you," I honestly thought I had missed something. So I replayed the scene over and over many times. While I could not say that I heard it, I could see that the words might be there from the motion of Heath's mouth.

Thank you, Milo!! I don't think the issue is decided just because the words are not audible on the soundtrack.

And nice to see you around these parts, by the way!  Smiley


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BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum  |  Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond  |  Brokeback Mountain Open Forum (Moderators: serious crayons, Penthesilea, LauraGigs)  |  Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments « previous next »
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