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BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum  |  Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond  |  Brokeback Mountain Open Forum (Moderators: serious crayons, Penthesilea, LauraGigs)  |  Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments 0 Residents and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments  (Read 31619 times)
BBM_victim
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« Reply #300 on: June 18, 2017, 10:31:47 pm »

I'm agnostic when it comes to the "I love you" to the shirts.  

I hear a hint of breath.  I suspect one can project onto this something more.

However, if he indeed said it, it is not to Jack nor to the shirts.  He knows Jack is gone.  Rather, I think he's saying it to himself, admitting it to himself, touched by the revelation of the shirts themselves.

*sigh* southendmd, that's so sad.... maybe, maybe.... as i said, i chose to believe that it's not an "i love you", notwithstanding any possible reasons for why he would / could said it at that particular moment.

For me, the ultimate moment when Ennis openly admits - to himself and a third party - that he indeed loved Jack is when he asks Junior whether the Kurt fella loves her. "Openly" is, of course, totally in Ennis terms, a great exaggeration otherwise! When i watch this scene i see that Jr.'s news touch him at a certain place and stir up lots of raw emotions in him, but i strongly feel that he is not evading or hiding them (even from himself) anymore. The fact that he utters the word "love" implies so much about himself - actually much more than a simple concern about his daughter's well-being. And the way how Heath is pressing out this question out of Ennis shows me that he is aware of just how much he is revealing to Jr. in this moment. He is fully aware that by his question he is actually telling his daughter 'yes, i have loved. yes, i have lost it. yes, love IS something that must be cherished' - he is aware and he still asks it because he is not running or denying anything anymore.

At the same time it just feels to me that Ennis is also talking to himself at this point. He needs some way to express his feelings which he cannot let out otherwise. I just can't picture Ennis talking to himself when nobody is around. I think when he does, he would talk to someone - like that "Jack, i swear..." But even then he cannot properly finish the sentence - maybe for the simple fact that there is actually nobody there to hear it (surely, not the only reason). I think Ennis needs somebody to be around so that he can voice his feelings and this opportunity he has in Jr.'s visit.
So, Jr. tells him about going to be married and Ennis' mind is instantly miles away. What he can only think about are two people who are - should be! - in love. He thinks about Jack and himself, which translates into Jr. and Kurt. He asks "He loves you?" and gets the answer "Yes, daddy, he loves me". This translates back to Ennis and Jack into "Jack loves me?" "Yes, he loves me", and vice versa. It's a complex moment...

By the way, look at Jr.'s face when Ennis poses his question. She sees it all! She sees that her dad is revealing his heart including the heartbreak, that he is finally acknowledging his own love for someone, that he had come to terms with his own feelings and - she smiles. She is first surprised, then relieved and happy for him...

Sorry, this was now kind of OT, but let me say that this is why i think he is not saying "i love you" in the closet - simply because there is nobody there to hear it... ;(



That analysis by 2robots4u was extremely interesting, when i read it i was actually quite surprised that nobody commented properly on it back then. I need to remind myself quite a lot that it is a movie we are talking about. All people - actors. Fakes! But it just cannot be... Why is it all so damn perfect?? Why is there so much complexity in each scene?? So many undercurrents, layers, feelings?? This movie is crazy magical!

And i need to agree with serious crayons that sometimes not even the best police detectives can detect all of the things said / done in this movie. For example, they had not detected the two "c'mon"s Jack is saying before he says "i'm sorry" in SNIT, but they are definitely there - one a a slight lip movement and the other one exhaled into Ennis' mouth. If something is being breathed instead of said - would their instruments still detect it as those "voice prints"? That would also kind of apply to the "f* me"s of FNIT...
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serious crayons
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« Reply #301 on: June 19, 2017, 09:56:01 am »

For me, the ultimate moment when Ennis openly admits - to himself and a third party - that he indeed loved Jack is when he asks Junior whether the Kurt fella loves her. "Openly" is, of course, totally in Ennis terms, a great exaggeration otherwise! When i watch this scene i see that Jr.'s news touch him at a certain place and stir up lots of raw emotions in him, but i strongly feel that he is not evading or hiding them (even from himself) anymore. The fact that he utters the word "love" implies so much about himself - actually much more than a simple concern about his daughter's well-being.

Yeah, I bet the typical aging divorced Wyoming ranch hand wouldn't necessarily ask something so romantic and personal because it would be out of character whether they had a secret gay lover or not.

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And the way how Heath is pressing out this question out of Ennis shows me that he is aware of just how much he is revealing to Jr. in this moment. He is fully aware that by his question he is actually telling his daughter 'yes, i have loved. yes, i have lost it. yes, love IS something that must be cherished' - he is aware and he still asks it because he is not running or denying anything anymore.

I can see this, but I'm not sure I'd interpret it as that deliberate a reveal.

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At the same time it just feels to me that Ennis is also talking to himself at this point. He needs some way to express his feelings which he cannot let out otherwise. I just can't picture Ennis talking to himself when nobody is around. I think when he does, he would talk to someone - like that "Jack, i swear..." But even then he cannot properly finish the sentence - maybe for the simple fact that there is actually nobody there to hear it (surely, not the only reason). I think Ennis needs somebody to be around so that he can voice his feelings and this opportunity he has in Jr.'s visit.

That could be, but if so you could argue that element exists in the shirt scene. Jack himself is no more literally "there" than he is in the trailer. But in the closet I think Ennis strongly senses Jack's presence, not necessarily spectrally but sort of embodied in the shirts as the symbol of Jack and everything Ennis has lost. I know this all gets very vague and ambiguous, but you know how people say they absolutely feel the presence of people they are intensely grieving? That could be going on here.

And later Ennis has, at least subliminally, created Jack's presence with the objects in his trailer.

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This translates back to Ennis and Jack into "Jack loves me?" "Yes, he loves me", and vice versa. It's a complex moment...

Asll set up by the "You're 19, you can do what you want, hunh?" Ennis was 19 that summer but didn't feel he could do what he wanted. Now he connects that to what he's come to understand about the importance of love and realizes he could have done what he wanted and should have gone for it.

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By the way, look at Jr.'s face when Ennis poses his question. She sees it all! She sees that her dad is revealing his heart including the heartbreak, that he is finally acknowledging his own love for someone, that he had come to terms with his own feelings and - she smiles. She is first surprised, then relieved and happy for him...

Maybe! I can never tell if it's "Yep, Dad's for sure had someone of his own all these years, and it wasn't Mom or Cassie" ... or it's "that's so sweet that Dad would ask me that and care about making sure."

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Sorry, this was now kind of OT, but let me say that this is why i think he is not saying "i love you" in the closet - simply because there is nobody there to hear it... ;(

But I think in a way, embodied in the shirts which literally form a person-like silhouette that he can hug around the "shoulders" like a person, he does feel there's somebody there to hear it.

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That would also kind of apply to the "f* me"s of FNIT...

Wait -- I'm not sure I even know about the "F* me"s. Whole new thread!  laugh


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BBM_victim
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« Reply #302 on: June 19, 2017, 08:32:09 pm »

That could be, but if so you could argue that element exists in the shirt scene. Jack himself is no more literally "there" than he is in the trailer. But in the closet I think Ennis strongly senses Jack's presence, not necessarily spectrally but sort of embodied in the shirts as the symbol of Jack and everything Ennis has lost. I know this all gets very vague and ambiguous, but you know how people say they absolutely feel the presence of people they are intensely grieving? That could be going on here.

And later Ennis has, at least subliminally, created Jack's presence with the objects in his trailer.

I will not dispute this because there is indeed a possibility.
I just thought yesterday that Ennis would need a presence of a real person to talk because he is not used to talking at all. He spends at least 2 weeks with - living!! - Jack before he can speak something like 10 sentences, so i imagined how it must be like for him if there is nobody around at all - would he be able to utter such important revelations as "i love you" under those circumstances?...
Additionally, his hushed "i love you" (if it is one) is sooo quick - why would he hurry up like this?...

Maybe! I can never tell if it's "Yep, Dad's for sure had someone of his own all these years, and it wasn't Mom or Cassie" ... or it's "that's so sweet that Dad would ask me that and care about making sure."

Oh, i am SO sure that Jr. knew! And she definitely knew for sure since the divorce meeting. Considering Alma as Ennis' lost love? - No. Considering Cassie as Ennis' lost love? - Again, no. Jr knew it was neither her mom nor Cassie when she said that her daddy is maybe not the marrying type. Consider this - from the SS:

"...Ennisís fishing trips once or twice a year with Jack Twist and never a vacation with her and the girls, his disinclination to step out and have any fun, his yearning for low paid, long-houred ranch work, his propensity to roll to the wall and sleep as soon as he hit the bed,..."


This basically means that he worked till late, almost no holidays (so, 7 days a week), got home and went to bed right away, no going out, no beers with friends or colleagues, probably no friends at all, no holidays with the family. BUT - regular fishing trips with his *only* friend JT. Just observing this she should understand that this friend was a special one. Then, after the divorce Jr sees how this special friend drives up to daddys place, how glad Ennis is to see him, how they hug (i bet she had not seen him hugging anyone else beside this!!)... Well, i wont say that this is like the ultimate proof, but i am sure Jr had known... That's why she looked so sad when Ennis came to pick her up and there was some woman in his truck. Jr knew that Ennis is just pretending again, but not actually happy. She was sad for him that he was still running away. That he was in a way betraying his own heart.


Wait -- I'm not sure I even know about the "F* me"s. Whole new thread!  laugh
I'm pretty sure this was part of those indiscernible moments of this thread Wink.
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CellarDweller
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« Reply #303 on: June 19, 2017, 10:09:49 pm »

this is one of those topics that will never be settled.
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BBM_victim
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« Reply #304 on: June 20, 2017, 04:05:43 am »

Yes, but i love love love this movie for giving us these hidden treasures to discuss for decades!
I'm just in constant state of awe....
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serious crayons
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« Reply #305 on: June 21, 2017, 11:15:33 am »

I just thought yesterday that Ennis would need a presence of a real person to talk because he is not used to talking at all. He spends at least 2 weeks with - living!! - Jack before he can speak something like 10 sentences, so i imagined how it must be like for him if there is nobody around at all - would he be able to utter such important revelations as "i love you" under those circumstances?...
Additionally, his hushed "i love you" (if it is one) is sooo quick - why would he hurry up like this?...

Well, the main reason that comes to mind is that if he said it loud and clear and in some passionate actory way, the scene would be ruined by sentimentality.

But also, just because he's not chatty with a guy he basically just met doesn't mean he never lets words go through his head, and sometimes in a really important moment -- like this one in the closet -- might even mouth them to himself.

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Oh, i am SO sure that Jr. knew! And she definitely knew for sure since the divorce meeting. Considering Alma as Ennis' lost love? - No. Considering Cassie as Ennis' lost love? - Again, no. Jr knew it was neither her mom nor Cassie when she said that her daddy is maybe not the marrying type. Consider this - from the SS:

"...Ennisís fishing trips once or twice a year with Jack Twist and never a vacation with her and the girls, his disinclination to step out and have any fun, his yearning for low paid, long-houred ranch work, his propensity to roll to the wall and sleep as soon as he hit the bed,..."


This basically means that he worked till late, almost no holidays (so, 7 days a week), got home and went to bed right away, no going out, no beers with friends or colleagues, probably no friends at all, no holidays with the family. BUT - regular fishing trips with his *only* friend JT. Just observing this she should understand that this friend was a special one. Then, after the divorce Jr sees how this special friend drives up to daddys place, how glad Ennis is to see him, how they hug (i bet she had not seen him hugging anyone else beside this!!)... Well, i wont say that this is like the ultimate proof, but i am sure Jr had known... That's why she looked so sad when Ennis came to pick her up and there was some woman in his truck. Jr knew that Ennis is just pretending again, but not actually happy. She was sad for him that he was still running away. That he was in a way betraying his own heart.

I'm not saying there's no signs she could have noticed. And a 2017 teenager, even in rural Wyoming, would probably pick up on them. But a teenager from the 80s, in small-town WY (still a very homophobic place) no college or apparent experience living in other places, discerning signs and concluding that her dad is gay and not only having no problem with it, being so in favor of it that she's sad when he doesn't act on it? Uh ... maybe.

But consider this. My aunt lived with a woman all her life -- somewhere around 50 years. When the family gathered for Christmas or something, Doris always came with Sara, just like all the straight siblings brought their spouses, and everybody got along great and had a wonderful time. My dad's family grew up in Iowa, but they're fairly worldly; all of them went to college, most of them lived in a big city at some point, most of them are adamantly liberal.

When I was 18 or 19 -- about Jr.'s age! -- it dawned on me that Sara and Doris were most likely gay. So I asked my mom. My mom worked in a department store advertising department. Most of her male coworkers were gay, as were many of the women copywriters and artists. She was close friends at work with one or two lesbians. Everyone was completely out, my mom was absolutely fine with it. So she wasn't naive.

But when I asked her about Sara and Doris she paused and then said, completely sincerely (but again, nonjudgmentally), "You know, I never even thought about that."

Jr.'s behavior is ambiguous. For sure, she does seems to pick up on enough to know her dad is not typical in his romantic involvements and apparently decides to let be, let be.


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BBM_victim
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« Reply #306 on: June 21, 2017, 08:16:27 pm »

Hey, serious crayons!

Thank you very much for your story - quite interesting Smiley.

I'm not saying there's no signs she could have noticed. And a 2017 teenager, even in rural Wyoming, would probably pick up on them. But a teenager from the 80s, in small-town WY (still a very homophobic place) no college or apparent experience living in other places, discerning signs and concluding that her dad is gay and not only having no problem with it, being so in favor of it that she's sad when he doesn't act on it? Uh ... maybe.

Uhm... I agree you might have a point there...  Cheesy Maybe i'm thinking too much into it, but my version just makes me feel good, i guess. It warms my heart to know that there was indeed somebody around for Ennis who actually understood him and somehow guessed his "love issues" (for lack of a better word) and pain without Ennis ever needing to talk about it. I guess i really wish his solitude is not complete to that extent... It breaks my heart to know that he will never be able to talk about neither Jack as his love nor even Jack as his friend to anybody. How much more pain had Ennis deserved and for what in the first place?? Poor baby, he had been tortured by life his whole existence... Cry Cry Cry
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serious crayons
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« Reply #307 on: June 21, 2017, 08:51:51 pm »

Uhm... I agree you might have a point there...  Cheesy Maybe i'm thinking too much into it, but my version just makes me feel good, i guess.

I totally get that, the wish to see at least a glimmer of happiness in it. In my early days of watching the movie, I used to start out thinking, "Maybe it will come out differently this time."

I think my years of debating every moment and line, from an emotional, dramatic and metaphorical and subtextual perspective, probably turned me more practical, more conscious of the dramatic choices as opposed to what I'd wish for in "real life." That, I guess, is how I became resigned to their fate.

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It warms my heart to know that there was indeed somebody around for Ennis who actually understood him and somehow guessed his "love issues" (for lack of a better word) and pain without Ennis ever needing to talk about it.

Well, I definitely think she'll always be a loving supporting daughter, whether she literally thinks "My dad is gay, but that's cool" or just knows she loves her dad and he's a little mysterious but his choices -- aside from whether to attend her wedding -- are his own business.

FWIW, because I don't really see Ennis ever going back for cherry cake, I think both Mr. and Mrs. Twist "got" Ennis -- even more accurately than Jr., probably. They both totally understand the nature of Ennis and Jack's relationship. Mr. Twist might not be the most open-minded modern guy on the planet, but he definitely was less concerned about the nature of Jack and his friend's relationship than he was about getting help at the ranch. (The problem wasn't that Jack was bringing a man, it was that like most of his plans it never come to pass.) Having (relatively) open-minded parents might at least partly explain why Jack is more carefree about pursuing the sweet life as opposed to Ennis, whose dad lynches gay people, tortures them to death in fact, and then takes his young son to see it.

One of the most fascinating aspects of this movie, I think, is that it requires the audience to bring in its own cultural knowledge. Ennis' dad is literally the only person who unequivocally expresses vicious homophobia (assuming Jack's killers are in Ennis' imagination). Yet because we all basically know the situation-- 1960s-'80s Wyoming, small towns -- we can assume that everything and everybody is at least tinged with it. So there are all these ambiguous situations you could read either way.

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BBM_victim
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« Reply #308 on: June 22, 2017, 02:18:41 am »

the wish to see at least a glimmer of happiness in it.

I've been thinking... what is actually Ennis' and Jack's most happy moment together? No, wrong... What's actually their best shot at pure happiness, not "marred" (to borrow AP's word) by any of the following:
- shame
- guilt
- self-loathing
- uncertainty / doubt
- fear
- time flying
- suppressed feelings
- apparent lies
- violence / anger
(..?)
Did they every had such a moment? I think best shots were the dozy embrace and "prayer and thanks" up to the harmonica joke, but both were still not perfect. Probably for Jack the DE was the perfect pure happiness moment, but we don't know about Ennis. SNIT? If we go by the short story, there was no SNIT, and even no kissing on the mountain (how horrible is that??). So, by my terms their time on the mountain was far from happy either... Unfulfilled! - is the word for this whole story! We can say they had the greatest love on earth, they were soul mates and two parts of one whole as much as we want, but in reality we have to people who are not even able to talk from their hearts to each other because of their issues. In a way they are still alone even if they are together. You know what? Fuck that! What kind of story is that?!?!... *walksinangrycircles*

.....
I'm sorry i had to swear. I had one of those moments  Tongue Sometimes i get so angry at both of them..... Yeah, then i remember how true this story actually is and how hard it is to fight one's own demons, to break out of own patterns...


because I don't really see Ennis ever going back for cherry cake
Oh, you don't? I think i need another moment... to remind myself how realistic the story is....
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BBM_victim
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« Reply #309 on: June 22, 2017, 02:32:57 am »

I'm sorry, the other post was kind of OT, but i leave it as it is - i had to let it out!


Well, the main reason that comes to mind is that if he said it loud and clear and in some passionate actory way, the scene would be ruined by sentimentality.
Right, so you agree that a proper "i love you" would ruin the scene. I think so, too. It's better without it. He doesn't need to say it, Jack knew it anyway. Then if he is really saying it in such a rush that it seems almost comically, i think it's not making the scene better either, maybe even worse. Therefore, i choose to think he is just sobbing instead.  Wink
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BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum  |  Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond  |  Brokeback Mountain Open Forum (Moderators: serious crayons, Penthesilea, LauraGigs)  |  Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments « previous next »
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