Did Jack wait too much time for Ennis to come around?

[opinionista]

Hey guys,

This topic came out at the polling place as a result of a comment I made about Jack making the mistake of waiting too much time for Ennis to commit. I got some interesting responses which prompt me to open a whole thread about it. I haven't found any other thread alike, but if there's indeed another one about the same topic, please notify me via PM before posting, so I can delete it.

This is my opinion:

As I was saying at that other thread, Jack, unlike Ennis, was the sort of person who would rather have 5 minutes of wonderful than a whole life of misery and nothing special*.  His flaw, however, was stubborness. He waited way too long for Ennis to come around, then died without really enjoying the life he wanted.

I think Jack loved Ennis too much, much more than he loved himself. And while that can sound romantic, because in Hollywood they have made it sound romantic, in my opinion it was a mistake, because it only brought pain, unhappiness and misery into his life. I know things weren't always that bad with Ennis.  I'm sure they had great moments together that Jack probably cherished. But the fact is that Jack at the beginning of the movie he was an outgoing happy man, with a quick laugh and a good sense of humor. Then we witness how the frustration he feels in his relationship with Ennis begins to take a toll in him, and in the end he becomes a bitter, depressed man. 

That's why I think his stubborness, in this case, was a flaw, a mistake. In fact, is a lesson I learned from the movie. Jack should've loved himself more no matter how much he loved Ennis.  In my opinion, he should've called it quits after the divorce scene, when he travels all the way to Wyoming only to be rejected by Ennis.


*This is in reference of Ennis's fear of ending up killed. I think Jack couldn't care less about it. He would rather have a life with Ennis, with the ranch and the calf and cow operation, even if that meant the risk of being killed or tortured like Earl was.

[David]

Well,  maybe not right AT  the divorce scene, but at least at their next fishing Trip.    Ennis had a point about the girls being there and that he'd missed his previous commitment with the girls the month before. 

 I think Ennis was struggling at that moment.  He was no doubt happy to see Jack, but conflicted.  His paranoia when he saw the white truck drive by was apparent to Jack.      Jack should have addressed all this at the next meeting.   Asked Ennis what was next?   Maybe suggested that they go up to Lightning Flat and ranch up there on his folks place.   This way Ennis could still drive back to Riverton and see the girls.

But most likely, Ennis would have said "Nothings changed except I don't have alma around making me feel guilty".  Ennis was still against two men living together like Earl & Rich.   So should have Jack "Quit" Ennis at that point?    Sure.   But as we all know, Love is blind.   It is also deaf, dumb and stupid too!

David

[opinionista]

I agree. However, I think Jack feels humilliated at that moment, not because Ennis had his girls and couldn't be with him, but because of the way he reacts when he sees a white pick-up drive by. Ennis gets very nervous about it, and they were just talking. They weren't kissing or anything, and I think Jack was offended. In fact, Jack's reaction to Ennis's reaction to the white truck is shown in the picture you posted, David.

[ednbarby]

I agree.  That's a pivotal moment, there.  Had Ennis not responded at all to that truck and thus shown he was no longer paranoid, it would have made a huge difference.  In everything.

I agree with David that Ennis had a point about having the previous commitment with the girls, and anyone would have understood that.  But someone who wanted to be with Jack more than he cared about what other people thought would have:

a) Said, "I have the girls this weekend and I missed last month.  But since you drove all this way, why don't you stay, if you don't mind it being on the couch, or I can put you up with Don Wroe down the way..."

and

b) Had no (or very little - like a quick glance and that's it) reaction to the white truck.

Yes, a) would be way out of character for Ennis, and b), for that matter.  I think Jack was humiliated both by Ennis' reaction to the truck going by, but also just his awkwardness with him in general - all of it served to make him feel like he overall didn't belong there - and thus didn't belong with Ennis.

[serious crayons]

This scene is certainly pivotal for my own mood when viewing the film. It's when I start getting really depressed, knowing it's all downhill from there. And each time I watch, this scene seems to come earlier and earlier in the movie! 

BTW, this scene contains some interesting echoes of the one where Aguirre appears on Brokeback with his announcement about Uncle Harold. Aguirre says, "So here I am"; Jack says "So here I am." Aguirre peers at Ennis through his binoculars and Jack follows his gaze, realizing that they've been watched; Ennis peers at the white truck and Jack follows his gaze, realizing that Ennis worries about being watched. Aguirre and Jack agree that there's nothing Jack can do about Uncle Harold -- either up here or down there. And Jack sees there's nothing he can do about Ennis in either place, either.

As for the topic question, my answer would be that Jack really has no choice. What's he going to do instead? Throughout most of the movie, he doesn't even know any other gay men. Mexico is not a satisfying alternative. Even when Jack gets a thing going with Randall, late in the game, he's clearly no substitute for Ennis. Jack still misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it.

So what would be the point of quitting him? Unless he thought presenting an ultimatum might stir Ennis to change. But I don't think he would have been willing to take the gamble.

I think quitting the love of your life is difficult unless you're getting nothing from the relationship -- when the person is indifferent or abusive or whatever. The only problem with Ennis is that he wouldn't live with Jack, or spend enough time with him. But when they were together, I think Ennis was loving and devoted and things were wonderful. That's why Jack missed him so much, and that would be hard to give up.

[ednbarby]

I think quitting the love of your life is difficult unless you're getting nothing from the relationship -- when the person is indifferent or abusive or whatever. The only problem with Ennis is that he wouldn't live with Jack, or spend enough time with him. But when they were together, I think Ennis was loving and devoted and things were wonderful. That's why Jack missed him so much, and that would be hard to give up.

Tell ya what.  Truth is... what you just said there, Katherine.

I was able to quit the love of my life after only two years of tormented love and passion because he became emotionally abusive when we were together.  Perhaps I should thank him for making it easier.

Nah.

[starboardlight]

As I was saying at that other thread, Jack, unlike Ennis, was the sort of person who would rather have 5 minutes of wonderful than a whole life of misery and nothing special. 

i think that's precisely why Jack stayed so long. He did get those "5 minutes of wonderful" from Ennis. Each of their trips together, he felt the fire and the passion. Being able to have that made his time away barable. Had he moved on, would he feel that way with any one else? Hard to say. Most of us have said, had he moved on to Randall, he would have been settling for an acceptable "nothing special".

[serious crayons]

Right, and as far as we know Jack never met anybody else who seemed even remotely possible. He would have been substituting the love of his life for so-so Randall, or worse, a lifetime of Jimbos and Mexico trips.

But opinionista, I have to respectfully disagree with your comment. Ennis chose five minutes of wonderful, too -- a whole life of misery and nothing special is what he had prior to their reunion. It's just that Ennis was willing to get by on only five minutes, whereas Jack wanted much more.

[ednbarby]

I'm not like you, Ennis.  I can't make it on a couple o' high altitude fucks once or twice a year...

[opinionista]

i think that's precisely why Jack stayed so long. He did get those "5 minutes of wonderful" from Ennis. Each of their trips together, he felt the fire and the passion. Being able to have that made his time away barable. Had he moved on, would he feel that way with any one else? Hard to say. Most of us have said, had he moved on to Randall, he would have been settling for an acceptable "nothing special".

I think Jack was having those 5 minutes of wonderful from Ennis before that spur of the moment trip he makes to Wyoming. After that, I don't think he was happy anymore. For me, there's no point in meeting someone once or twice a year, just for just a week or less, then spend the rest of the months feeling miserable most of the time, forcing yourself to have sex with people you don't like, crying your eyes out every night because you miss that person so much that you can't hardly stand it. I think it's humiliating, it's a torture, especially if you know that situation is not going to change. But that's my opinion.

As for Randall, we don't know what he meant to Jack. Obviously, he would never love him they way he loved Ennis, but maybe he was able to find some happiness with Randall, and grow to love him with time. I guess that is what Jack ultimately hoped for.

Jack deserved to feel better about himself, to feel fully loved and that he belonged with someone. We all do. In the movie there are many scenes where Jack is shown feeling out of place. He felt he didn't belong anywhere, not with Lureen, not with his family, not with Ennis, because Ennis kept rejecting him, and not with society. That is why I think he should've loved himself some more.  At least it's something I learned for myself, although I know that, as David points out, love can be blind, deaf, mute and stupid.

PS. I want to explain that what I meant by five minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special it was in reference of Ennis's fear of ending up killed. I think Jack couldn't care less about it. He would rather have a life with Ennis, with the ranch and the calf and cow operation, even if that meant the risk of being killed or tortured like Earl was.

[nakymaton]

I think Jack was having those 5 minutes of wonderful from Ennis before that spur of the moment trip he makes to Wyoming. After that, I don't think he was happy anymore. For me, there's no point in meeting someone once or twice a year, just for just a week or less, then spend the rest of the months feeling miserable most of the time, forcing yourself to have sex with people you don't like, crying your eyes out every night because you miss that person so much that you can't hardly stand it. I think it's humiliating, it's a torture, especially if you know that situation is not going to change. But that's my opinion.

"He said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant for drinking. Jack drank a lot." (Quote's from memory and may be wrong; I cry too damn much at that point in the movie to remember the dialogue.)

We only see hints of the toll that the post-divorce years took on Jack. I mean, he doesn't look quite alive again, not in the way he does laughing after demonstrating that rodeo cowboys are all f***-ups, or in bed after the reunion, or when he sees Ennis on the pre-divorce fishing trip. And we know he sought out other men. But we don't see the drinking.

I don't know what I would tell Jack, though, if I could talk to him. Like ednbarby, I've gotten out of a bad relationship... but you know, it's a heck of a lot easier to move on when the potential new partners 1) are the right sexual orientation most of the time and 2) don't have to worry about letting the world know they're attracted to me. Jack didn't have those advantages. He was still a small-town guy, too, even though he moved out of Wyoming and had more money than Ennis.

It's just a goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation.

[gattaca]

I can't speak for Jack (and I don't need to) - all I can say is that I'd have done it. I'd have stuck it out. I have before, and I would again.
Is it worth that 5 minutes?

You bet.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Jack loved Ennis and would not and could not give up on him. On the last fishing trip he said "tell you what....the truth is..... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it". Even after the bitter arguement in the final moments of that last trip he rushes to comfort Ennis after so much was said" Its all right...its all right". I think he does come th accept that it may never me more than this and to "let it be" as it is and always has been.

[starboardlight]

Jack deserved to feel better about himself, to feel fully loved and that he belonged with someone. We all do. In the movie there are many scenes where Jack is shown feeling out of place. He felt he didn't belong anywhere, not with Lureen, not with his family, not with Ennis, because Ennis kept rejecting him, and not with society. That is why I think he should've loved himself some more.  At least it's something I learned for myself, although I know that, as David points out, love can be blind, deaf, mute and stupid.

yes, he does deserve so much more. I understand your frustration. You just wish it could work out. You wish Jack wasn't disappointed over and over again.

I do think that even to the very end, Jack knew that Ennis loved him. I certainly think that he felt like he belonged with Ennis, and that's why it was worth it for him to come back to Ennis as long as he did.

It is difficult to imagine going through a life time of that, but for most gay men and women, that's not even an option. For rural men of that time, finding love an exception. Mostly, it's just anonymous encounters.

[ednbarby]

It is difficult to imagine going through a life time of that, but for most gay men and women, that's not even an option. For rural men of that time, finding love an exception. Mostly, it's just anonymous encounters.

This makes me so sad for all gay men and women experiencing this.  But it also gives me a good measure of happiness for Jack and Ennis and those like them that they found each other.

[whiteoutofthemoon]

Someone said that in one of the preOscar interviews, Jake was asked how Jack really died in the movie, and he responded "Jack died the moment they couldn't be together".


This is one of the many messages I got from the movie....this idea of "waiting".  I have this habit of "holding out" for the best situation....the best job, best vacation plans, best situation for relationships....but while waiting, the opportunity just passes by and it's way too too late.  In this regard then, the person who was waiting too much time was not Jack, but Ennis.....and the tragedy of the whole story is that he lost that opportunity for happiness forever b/c he kept pushing it away. 

Jack, on the other hand, is a dreamer....  and dreamers always have an allowance for "that one chance" that things will work out if they wait and try long enough.   So this begs the question, which is of much larger scope, of whether or nor they were better off with the  ways things were, or else, not meeting at all?   Is it better to have loved and lost, or not to have loved at all?   Was Jack better off seeing Ennis twice a year as opposed to not seeing him at all?  Moments of fleeting bliss, vs no happiness ever?   That's a tough one, but at the end, Jack came to realize that it really wasn't enough...there ain't never enough time, never enough. 

[alec716]

Is it better to have loved and lost, or not to have loved at all?   Was Jack better off seeing Ennis twice a year as opposed to not seeing him at all?  Moments of fleeting bliss, vs no happiness ever?   That's a tough one, but at the end, Jack came to realize that it really wasn't enough...there ain't never enough time, never enough. 

And, I believe, Ennis only came to the realization of "never enough time, never enough" after Jack died.  Nightmare, nightmare, no going back for Ennis.

Count me in on the side of moments of fleeting bliss, if no moment-to-moment togetherness is possible.  As Eartha Kitt sings, "memories you memorize... to keep your winters warm."  (yes, I am a HUGE fan of Eartha Kitt... is there an online discussion board for people like me?!)

I believe that most people on the planet never get to touch the kind of passion and love that Jack and Ennis shared (and yes, in their own way, the COMMITMENT).  Fortunately, I do get to touch it.  My beloved partner and I live in different countries (same time zone, at least!), and cannot see each other as often as we would like.  We have lived together for extended periods when immigration and other factors have permitted and will do so again.  Thankfully, we are able to get on a fair number of airplanes back and forth in the interim times.  I am aware that that is a significant privilege in life.  And Canada better not get nutty and repeal its current, federal-level recognition of same-sex marriage... we can't return the gold rings waiting in our respective dresser drawers!  We are constantly striving to make changes in our lives so that we can spend more precious time together, and we are on the phone multiple times each day.  I take comfort in the notion that at least the reasons for our periodic physical separations are external, not internal as were Ennis' core reasons for not sharing a day-to-day life with Jack.  I would rather have what I have with whom I have it than have something lesser with someone whose breath I could feel more often  --  NO QUESTIONS ASKED.  And I think that makes me fantastically lucky.

oh my gosh... I just got intensely personally vulnerable with a bunch of people online whom I have never met in person... how did that happen?!  It must be the spells of Brokeback Mountain and the BetterMostians working their magic on me!

and I am guessing that part of the reason for my obsession with Annie Proulx's tale just became pretty transparent.

thanks for listening.

and that, my friends, is this evening's rant.  g'night, y'all.   

[serious crayons]

I would rather have what I have with whom I have it than have something lesser with someone whose breath I could feel more often  --  NO QUESTIONS ASKED.  And I think that makes me fantastically lucky.

Once again, another nice rant, Alec! Feel free to rant every evening.

If you can't get intensely personally vulnerable with a bunch of strangers online, who can you get intensely personally vulnerable with?! Me, I am often more intensely personally vulnerable here than I am with friends and family.

Anyway, the quote above is beautifully put. You're right! And not to bring the subject back to fiction, but that's why I'll bet Jack never would have chosen Randall over Ennis.

[Phillip Dampier]

 bump