Author Topic: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"  (Read 16199 times)

Offline whiteoutofthemoon

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"Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« on: June 10, 2006, 12:02:20 am »
Alrighty then, here's one for the beautiful ladies here (or any smart men):

If girls don't fall in love with fun, then what do they fall for then?   That is, what exactly did Cassie see in Ennis?   We're well aware of what Jack saw in Ennis, and I can even see what Alma saw in him (at that time, he was probably her first love, it was probably expected that all girls got married and had children, etc.), but later on in life, Ennis wasn't exactly a "catch" for a hottie like Cassie....he was poor, not a great conversationalist overall, inattentive, had baggage (two kids).  We know he's a decent guy and a loyal friend, but from purely Cassie's perspective, what is it that she fell for?   that's one part that I didn't totally understand, and certainly Cassie was added by the screenwriters, as she was not part of Annie Proulx's story.   I knew she liked him, but I couldn't see why she fell in love with him.  And this is one hot, young chick who could've gotten any cowboy.   

On the other hand, I can understand why the writers added her character, as if to show that Ennis was somewhat "damaged" to love anyone else.....  that scene in the diner tells it all....  he was all alone, eating this small piece of pie....a shell of a man, confused, emotionally drained, couldn't love, or be loved. 

So ladies, would you have fallen for Ennis?  and why, or why not?

(me....just a single straight guy, alone on a Friday nite, b/c of a fight today with my girlfriend....and I still don't understand women!  And hence this thread...  <sigh>). ??? :-\


"They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.  Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the whiteoutofthemoon."

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2006, 12:18:46 am »
Well, I hope you and your girlfriend work things out.

See, I could answer your question but I have no idea so... yeah...

Cassie's presence was a bit of a mystery to me at first. But I agree that she shows how emotionally destroyed Ennis is in that he can love Jack and Jack only.
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Offline opinionista

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2006, 10:20:52 am »
Alrighty then, here's one for the beautiful ladies here (or any smart men):

If girls don't fall in love with fun, then what do they fall for then?   That is, what exactly did Cassie see in Ennis?   We're well aware of what Jack saw in Ennis, and I can even see what Alma saw in him (at that time, he was probably her first love, it was probably expected that all girls got married and had children, etc.), but later on in life, Ennis wasn't exactly a "catch" for a hottie like Cassie....he was poor, not a great conversationalist overall, inattentive, had baggage (two kids).  We know he's a decent guy and a loyal friend, but from purely Cassie's perspective, what is it that she fell for?   that's one part that I didn't totally understand, and certainly Cassie was added by the screenwriters, as she was not part of Annie Proulx's story.   I knew she liked him, but I couldn't see why she fell in love with him.  And this is one hot, young chick who could've gotten any cowboy.   

On the other hand, I can understand why the writers added her character, as if to show that Ennis was somewhat "damaged" to love anyone else.....  that scene in the diner tells it all....  he was all alone, eating this small piece of pie....a shell of a man, confused, emotionally drained, couldn't love, or be loved. 

So ladies, would you have fallen for Ennis?  and why, or why not?

(me....just a single straight guy, alone on a Friday nite, b/c of a fight today with my girlfriend....and I still don't understand women!  And hence this thread...  <sigh>). ??? :-\




Well, Cassie is actually in the short story, just that Proulx didn't give her a name. But Ennis does mention her, when he tells Jack that he's been putting the blocks to some waiter who worked at a bar in Signal. I think the reason for her existence is to show that Ennis's fears towards his own sexuality just grew bigger with time. He wasn't coming in terms with is sexuality at all, as opposed to Jack who at least acknowledged that he was in love with a man.

Anyway, Diana Ossana said in an interview that the very first draft of the screenplay was exactly like the short story, but it wasn't long enough to make it a movie. So, she and Larry McMurtry had to expand it, adding situations and characters that were either mentioned briefly, like Cassie, or that weren't there at all, like Jimbo.

PS.The interview is in the DVD extras.

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2006, 12:36:02 pm »
From some perspectives  ::) Ennis is every bit as hot as Cassie. Socioeconomically, he's not a step down for a cocktail waitress. It's true he's not talkative, but a lot of women don't question that. He's a little older than she is, but not way out of range. Baggage, yeah, but a lot of women are OK with that, too. Someone pointed out on another thread that Cassie might have been drawn to Ennis because he was polite and wouldn't have harassed her like a lot of guys in the bar might. He's quite pleasant, in fact. So I would guess that as Cassie looked around the bar, she wasn't seeing many cowboys who, on the surface anyway, looked more appealing. Look who she turned to on the rebound: Karl, about whom she rolls her eyes and the best she can say is that he's nice and talks!

Eventually, she might have become frustrated by Ennis' lack of passion, in both a physical and emotional sense. But I think at that point their relationship was new enough that frustration hadn't set in, and she probably hoped the potential still existed.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 12:41:14 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2006, 08:17:47 pm »
Surely the "Carl, he even talks" line was more a slap at Ennis and his taciturnity than a comment about Carl? At least, that's how I've always seen the line. Poor Cassie must have needed a grappling hook to pull conversation out of Ennis.
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Offline welliwont

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2006, 09:56:28 pm »
Eventually, she might have become frustrated by Ennis' lack of passion, in both a physical and emotional sense. But I think at that point their relationship was new enough that frustration hadn't set in, and she probably hoped the potential still existed.

Hi Katherine:

"their relationship was new enough"?  Please correct me if I am wrong, but I calculate their relationship as being for five years by 1983.  Based on the linear progression:  Cassie hits on Ennis the scene immediately prior to the Benefit Dance where Jack meets Randall, and the banner at the Benefit Dance says 1978.

This is the reason I came down so hard on Ennis in my two postings earlier tonight on another thread, http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2163.0.


.... Ennis stopped seeing Cassie after their last fishing trip supports your hypothesis.  I do however have a problem with the way that was done.  According to the timeline, Ennis began to see Cassie in 1978, and stopped seeing her in 1983.  Five years, damn!  For a woman to be dumped so unceremoniously after being in a relationship for five f---n' years just boggles the mind.  Cassie says she left messages and notes, and then moved on to Carl.  Sheesh, after five years, I think a face-to-face encounter with Ennis would be absolutely necessary to Cassie.  How could she just accept this silent brush-off after five f'n years??


PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”

Sorry to all the Heathens!  *ducks into the tent just before the barrage*

Sorry Katherine, I know you are a Heathen!

and To Jeff:  sometimes women choose men that are not good for them, this is the condensed theory, but some women are unconciously drawn to men that are similar to their father's personality.  If Cassie's father had been emotionally distant and unavailable to her or to her mother, that is what Cassie models for her own choice of a mate.  I know that is what I did, I chose someone emtionallly distant, just like my own father was.


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Offline whiteoutofthemoon

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2006, 01:09:56 am »
"PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”


Ennis is a gentleman, decent and noble to the core, and that's why it was such an internal struggle for him to have feelings for Jack, not only because he didn't understand it and had fears, but also because he had committments to Alma, and especially his children.   It may look like he was "leading on" CASSIE (corrected), and perhaps the way he blew her off was cold, but that again is part of the tragedy....in that diner scene, you can hear in his voice that he was just empty, and as much as he may have wanted to do the right thing in regards to Cassie, he had lost the emotional capability to do so. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2006, 01:41:54 pm by whiteoutofthemoon »
"They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.  Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the whiteoutofthemoon."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2006, 02:33:13 am »
"PS:  I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person.  My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man.  Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”


Ennis is a gentleman, decent and noble to the core, and that's why it was such an internal struggle for him to have feelings for Jack, not only because he didn't understand it and had fears, but also because he had committments to Alma, and especially his children.   It may look like he was "leading on" Alma, and perhaps the way he blew her off was cold, but that again is part of the tragedy....in that diner scene, you can hear in his voice that he was just empty, and as much as he may have wanted to do the right thing in regards to Cassie, he had lost the emotional capability to do so. 

Whiteoutofthemoon, I agree with you.

On the other hand, JakeTwist, I totally disagree with Ann Landers, but I should probably save that for the Ann Landers message board. (Briefly, though, I think those qualities most certainly can be inherited in the genes, and probably even learned in college -- at college age, anyway, if not in an actual classroom.)

I think Ennis was probably fine to Cassie, aside from leading her on out of some mixture of passivity and his own fears -- at least until the end, when he broke up with her in an unquestionably cruel way. Also, the actual decision to break up with her -- if not the method -- may have been motivated at least partly by kindness. But when I said politeness, etc., were among his attractive qualities, I was referring more to his manner at the very beginning, when she was still serving him beers and decided to hit on him.

And Jake, you are much more observant than I am. I guess I never noticed the banner and calculated the years. I always just figured both the Cassie and Randall relationships hadn't been going on long before Ennis and Jack talked about them. I guess I might have thought Ennis, especially, would have mentioned the good-looking little gal he was putting the blocks to earlier. (With Jack, I guess it would make sense he'd been seeing Randall for a while before he obliquely confessed to Ennis. But he'd only mentioned Randall to his dad that spring.)

And Jeff, I agree that Cassie's Carl line was partly a slap at Ennis, but as she said it while rolling her eyes and making a face and immediately after, "Who, Carl?!?"  it was also meant to indicate how little he (Carl) interested her.

Sorry Katherine, I know you are a Heathen!

What, have I mentioned this before?!  ::) ;)

« Last Edit: June 11, 2006, 11:07:17 am by latjoreme »

Offline welliwont

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2006, 02:59:24 am »
I guess I never noticed the banner and calculated the years. I always just figured both the Cassie and Randall relationships hadn't been going on long before Ennis and Jack talked about them. I guess I might have thought Ennis, especially, would have mentioned the good-looking little gal he was putting the blocks to earlier. (With Jack, I guess it would make sense he'd been seeing Randall for a while before he obliquely confessed to Ennis. But he'd only mentioned Randall to his dad that spring.)

Yeah, me too.  I'm not so sure that it's not a continuity error or something....   I was totally surprised when I calculated that it was five years!  It did not "feel" like five years in the way that Cassie accepted the lackadaisacal flavor of their relationship, I mean to stick around for that long in such a seemingly casual relationship, and to have moved on to Carl with no real closure from Ennis, y'know what I'm trying to say?  (It's late!)

And yes you are right, you'd think that Ennis might have mentioned Cassie to Jack if he'd been seeing her for five years!  I mean, surely they must have talked a bit to each other on their get-aways?!!

If Ang had put the scene of Cassie picking up Ennis after the 1978 scene of Jack meeting Randall at the Charity Benefit, then it might have been way less than five years that Cassie was seeing Ennis, and that would have felt more realistic.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2006, 03:44:31 am by JakeTwist »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2006, 04:07:27 am »
The more I think of it and, having looked at the screenplay (for the first time!), the more the whole date thing toward the end is odd.

According to the screenplay, the charity dance takes place in 1978, as the sign indicates. And when Ennis and Cassie pick Alma Jr. up for a date, she appears younger than she does at the end. Which makes Ennis belated revelation about Cassie odd, for the reasons we mentioned, under any circumstances.

But also, in the screenplay the big lakeside argument is in 1981. As is the pie-eating scene. But the scene where Ennis gets the DECEASED postcard is said to happen in 1982. How would that work? Didn't the argument occur early in the year that Ennis said he couldn't meet until November -- and then didn't Ennis' message on the fatal postcard confirm that November meeting? Or if not, does this imply there were other meetings between the big argument and Jack's death?! This doesn't seem realistic.

Sorry, but unless I'm figuring wrong, this seems like a mistake. Feel free to correct me if necessary.

The last scene, with Alma Jr., is said to occur in 1984. Hunh?! It doesn't seem that much later than the previous action. I guess this is more arguable, but Ennis' grief seems really fresh.

Offline nic

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2006, 05:27:42 am »
....snip...So ladies, would you have fallen for Ennis?  and why, or why not?

The date thing is confusing me now too! But I have a response to the main question, & that is that I would definitely have fallen for Ennis, bigtime.  Not just because of his looks but because I would have been able to tell that there was something going on under his exterior.  Especially, if like Cassie, I had been able to observe him for some time.  I have always fallen for people who have some major personal stuff going on with them - it draws me like a moth to a flame & sometimes gets in the way of if the relationship itself.  I am desperate to find out what they are like underneath & what it is they are hiding.  Ennis is a classic case. 

I think this comes from the fact I am also Ennis-like in that I have an outer shell & some damaged goods underneath too, so want the reassurance & the recognition that even if you have been damaged, you are worth something & someone can/will love you etc  It's also a bit of a mothering/good samaritan thing too I think, wanting to help the other person overcome their inner demons.  Someitmes I think that damaged people subconscioulsy send out signals that can be picked up by this caring type of person so that they can come together. Ennis certainly wasn't looking for another relationship, although at the time he must have welcomed it in a way, as a "beard" and also to see if he could "play it straight".

I have had one relationship with a person holding themselves back where it didn't work, where I couldn't get through to them & I felt locked out.  To this day, I feel selfishly frustrated that I couldn't "break" them (my "skills" were lacking or they didn't trust me enough) but also worried for them in case they never found anyone that could get through to them.  For Ennis, Jack was the only one he could be free with.  They didn't talk a lot but seemed to have some understanding of the other's hurts.   Alma Jnr was close to Ennis because of the unconditional love between a parent and child (not so much Francine/Jenny because Alma Snr seemed to take her over). 

Sorry to have gone round the house with that answer! I totally see this coloured from my own experience & the answer wasn't simple.  There is also some further discussion here about the attraction of Ennis's internal strength & in the reply

 http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1953.msg37027#msg37027
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 07:29:24 am by nic »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2006, 11:14:21 am »
I would definitely have fallen for Ennis, bigtime.  Not just because of his looks but because I would have been able to tell that there was something going on under his exterior.

I agree with everything you wrote, Nic. And not only would I have, I did!  :-*

Offline whiteoutofthemoon

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2006, 12:48:48 am »
The date thing is confusing me now too! But I have a response to the main question, & that is that I would definitely have fallen for Ennis, bigtime.  Not just because of his looks but because I would have been able to tell that there was something going on under his exterior.  Especially, if like Cassie, I had been able to observe him for some time.  I have always fallen for people who have some major personal stuff going on with them - it draws me like a moth to a flame & sometimes gets in the way of if the relationship itself.  I am desperate to find out what they are like underneath & what it is they are hiding.  Ennis is a classic case. 

I think this comes from the fact I am also Ennis-like in that I have an outer shell & some damaged goods underneath too, so want the reassurance & the recognition that even if you have been damaged, you are worth something & someone can/will love you etc  It's also a bit of a mothering/good samaritan thing too I think, wanting to help the other person overcome their inner demons.  Someitmes I think that damaged people subconscioulsy send out signals that can be picked up by this caring type of person so that they can come together. Ennis certainly wasn't looking for another relationship, although at the time he must have welcomed it in a way, as a "beard" and also to see if he could "play it straight".

I have had one relationship with a person holding themselves back where it didn't work, where I couldn't get through to them & I felt locked out.  To this day, I feel selfishly frustrated that I couldn't "break" them (my "skills" were lacking or they didn't trust me enough) but also worried for them in case they never found anyone that could get through to them.  For Ennis, Jack was the only one he could be free with.  They didn't talk a lot but seemed to have some understanding of the other's hurts.   Alma Jnr was close to Ennis because of the unconditional love between a parent and child (not so much Francine/Jenny because Alma Snr seemed to take her over). 

Sorry to have gone round the house with that answer! I totally see this coloured from my own experience & the answer wasn't simple.  There is also some further discussion here about the attraction of Ennis's internal strength & in the reply

 http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1953.msg37027#msg37027


Thanks nic, that was the type of response I was looking for...... I guess I wanted a better understanding of 'what women want'...of course, that topic in itself could fill a whole library, but I can see that women, probably more so than men, have that nurturing tendency inbred in you, and that you might be attracted to that tough exterior, but inner turmoil.......if it was easy, then it wouldn't be worth it to conquer that, and that perhaps you can be the only one to help that tortured soul.   It would have to be presumed that the subject of marriage came up in Cassie's and Ennis's long courtship, as he was comfortable enough to have her meet his daughter, and surely she was dropping hints, but probably got nowhere, so she had to resort to snooping around with Alma Jr, trying perhaps when she asks if Ennis is ready to settle down again, I sense that she is really asking "so...what does he say about me?". 

I've always wondered too....there a lot of "good men" out there who can't seem to match up with a good woman, and yet you turn on Jerry Springer and see these fat ugly unemployed old guys with strange fetishes who have SEVERAL women fighting to the death for them.....  maybe not an exact analogy to Ennis, but I guess attraction is in the eye of the beholder!

"They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.  Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the whiteoutofthemoon."

Offline welliwont

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2006, 01:32:16 am »
Hi Katherine, nic, whiteoutofthemoon:

In a nutshell, the dates in the Screenplay are wrrroonng!  Over at my previous abode, there was an very extensive thread discussing tie timelines the discrepancies, etc. and a couple of people reconciled the dates as best they could.  I will mayvbe be able to put my fingers on it, if I do I will post the link.  It is really really long so if there is no longer a link do you think I should post it here?  (I am a thread-saver, but they do not look as pretty after I have saved them...)

J
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2006, 01:50:23 am »
Then JakeTwist, I guess my next question would be, do the dates in the actual movie make sense? For instance, it's hard to imagine Ennis carrying on a five-year relationship with Cassie, never mentioning it to Jack until it just happens to come up in conversation after five years of silence, yet then telling him about it very nonchallantly, as if it were no big secret or anything. On the other hand, Alma Jr. does seem to age a few years between their date and the last scene.

(Without reading the extremely long thread, I am perfectly willing to accept your conclusion that the screenplay dates are wrong -- I agree totally. If you remember or can excerpt any particularly interesting points, feel free to post!)

Offline nic

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2006, 05:00:19 am »
I'd be interested in knowing what the general consensus was as to what the accepted, corrected timeframe is.  That seems like quite a big mistake for the crew to make.  Another reason for a new DVD!!
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Offline welliwont

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2006, 07:14:08 am »
Then JakeTwist, I guess my next question would be, do the dates in the actual movie make sense? For instance, it's hard to imagine Ennis carrying on a five-year relationship with Cassie, never mentioning it to Jack until it just happens to come up in conversation after five years of silence, yet then telling him about it very nonchallantly, as if it were no big secret or anything. On the other hand, Alma Jr. does seem to age a few years between their date and the last scene.

(Without reading the extremely long thread, I am perfectly willing to accept your conclusion that the screenplay dates are wrong -- I agree totally. If you remember or can excerpt any particularly interesting points, feel free to post!)


Well shame on me for taking four days to answer back to you!!!  This remained an unread e-mail in my e-mail for all this time....  well never mind that....  Everything you write above is dead right, I agree 1000% that it is hard to imagine that Ennis mentions Cassie for the first time the night before the big fight scene by the lake which is in the spring of 1983....  but that apparently is the case.

Do the dates in the actual movie make sense?  well....

Is it 1978 when Cassie hits on Ennis?  --  yes, bcz the scene immediately following is the Childress 1978 Charity ball or whatever-you-call-it.  Unless the film plays out in non-chronological order, and I don't think that is the case, that does not make sense.

Is it spring 1983 when Ennis tells Jack about Cassie?  yes, it is the night before the fight scene, unless AL strung together two completely different camping trips, and that does not make sense....  Yes it is 1983 bcz Jack dies at age 39 according to Lureen...

Ergo 5 years.  Now I am no Columbo, but I cannot see a hole in that sequence of conclusions, I cannot find a way to disprove the five years. so apparently Ennis was that cavalier about Cassie, did not deem her worth mentioning to Jack in all that time.  I really wonder what they spoke about / did all those days they spent together on their fishing trips, that Cassie's name did not come up....  Usually what friends talk about is what is going on in their lives....  Ennis did not have a hell of a lot of other stuff going on in his life to talk about.... Only seeing his girls once a month (or was it getting the girls?)  -  when they lived in the same town FGS!!

ok, I think I know what they did most of the time  ;) ;D but I have always thought that their relationship was very very insular and not based in reality, although IMO it would have stood the test and survived if only Ennis would taken the chance....  Yes the aging of Alma jr fits with the 5 years timeline, she looks about 15 when she goes out with Cassie and Ennis...

So even though it does not make sense to me (and maybe not to you either) that Ennis dated Cassie for five years before mentionning it to Jack, that indeed is the case - in the movie.

J

PS  try this, and I'll say it just one time....  the fact that Jack puts the question "In all this time you ain't found anyone else to marry?" to Ennis I find a bit strange as well...  Jack wants to be in Ennis' life 100%.  So why is he entertaining the question that Ennis marry a woman again and make himself unavailable to Jack?  hmmmm,  I never liked that Jack asked that question / brought it up in the first place.  OK I can hear the answer already, Jack was really asking 'cause he wants to make sure Ennis is not getting involved with someone else....  yeah, but still, saying that to Ennis is like opening the door, shouldn't he be saying something like "I sure hope you ain't planning to make the same mistake twice by gettin' married, 'cause I still hold out hope that we can get together and have that sweet life one a these days."

oh, it's so sad... Damn you Ennis!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2006, 11:04:37 am »
OK then, here's a heretical suggestion: the movie is, well, um, flawed. I hasten to add I mean this only in regard to this time sequence problem!! (Although there was a thread once in which people were asked to suggest other minor, minor flaws in this otherwise perfect movie, and I'll have to admit I did name a couple of tiny ones.)

The screenplay is unquestionably wrong. So maybe all the problems didn't get ironed out in the trip from script to screen. If the banner at the charity dance didn't say 1978, then everything else would fit together pretty well: both Cassie and Randall could have entered the picture at any time, which most logically would have been in the early 80s.

That doesn't explain Alma Jr.'s apparent aging. But maybe, if she's 17 when she accompanies them on their date, and enough time goes by between the lakeside argument and Jack's death and the final scene, she could be 19 by then? It's a stretch (she looks a bit younger than 17 in that earlier scene), but it could work.

At least, it works better for me than the idea that the subject of Cassie never came up in five years. Yes, Ennis is taciturn and not that into Cassie, perhaps even keeps quiet about her to avoid hurting Jack. But his "I've been putting the blocks to ..." just doesn't sound like the blocks have been getting put for five years.

It's also hard to imagine Jack's and Randall's relationship having gone on for five years. Their scene at the charity dance suggests they would get together relatively soon thereafter ... not four f'in years later. Yet when Jack obliquely tells Ennis about Randall, he ALSO sounds like he's describing a pretty recent development, not one that's five years old.

I'm afraid the time sequence doesn't make perfect sense no matter what. But I can best live with it if I rip down that charity-ball banner in my mind.

the fact that Jack puts the question "In all this time you ain't found anyone else to marry?" to Ennis I find a bit strange as well...  Jack wants to be in Ennis' life 100%.  So why is he entertaining the question that Ennis marry a woman again and make himself unavailable to Jack?  hmmmm,  I never liked that Jack asked that question / brought it up in the first place.

That has always disconcerted me, too. At first, I thought maybe they still had to keep up the pretense of heterosexuality (or bisexuality), even with each other -- although they clearly don't feel threatened by outside relationships with women as they would by other men. That theory was supported by Jack's admission of his relationship with the ranch foreman's wife, and Ennis' nonchalant acceptance of it. Others have suggested the idea that Jack is baiting Ennis, or prodding him to admit he needs more companionship or whatever, and that theory makes sense to me, too.

Offline welliwont

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2006, 12:24:47 pm »
OK then, here's a heretical suggestion: the movie is, well, um, flawed. I hasten to add I mean this only in regard to this time sequence problem!!

Hi Katherine:  I believe you have hit the nail on the head.  Can this be called some kind of continuity error, so-to-speak?  If the banner was removed from the movie, then we could accept the mentions of Cassie & rancher's 'wife' without any qualms.

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(Although there was a thread once in which people were asked to suggest other minor, minor flaws in this otherwise perfect movie, and I'll have to admit I did name a couple of tiny ones.)

I hated that thread!  I was gonna say something, but I deleted my post instead of sending it, and I refuse to read that thread anymore ever.  Sure, I could pick a few things to complain about, but the sum total of everybody's niggling peeves is not a pretty picture and it demeans our beloved movie, IMO.

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The screenplay is unquestionably wrong. So maybe all the problems didn't get ironed out in the trip from script to screen.

yes, I think most BBM scholars agree that the screenplay is wrong in at least a couple of  places.

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That has always disconcerted me, too. At first, I thought maybe they still had to keep up the pretense of heterosexuality (or bisexuality), even with each other -- although they clearly don't feel threatened by outside relationships with women as they would by other men. That theory was supported by Jack's admission of his relationship with the ranch foreman's wife, and Ennis' nonchalant acceptance of it. Others have suggested the idea that Jack is baiting Ennis, or prodding him to admit he needs more companionship or whatever, and that theory makes sense to me, too.

The first theory, that they don't feel threatened by outside relationships with women, it took me a while to wrap my brain around that.  At first I was like Whoa!  what's going on?  how can they be so nonchalant about this?  I have since accepted others' explanation for it.

But now the second theory, that Jack is baiting Ennis, I have not heard that one before, hmmmm.....

Here is another scene that needs to be dissected:  the last morning, when Jack is standing at his truck door ready to leave, he says to Ennis:  "Well I guess I'll head up to Lightning Flat for a couple of days"  he finishes his sentence, and he gives Ennis such a look, and then he snaps his head down and stares at the ground, almost like he was hoping for a certain response from Ennis that he did not get....  hmmm ...and then he gets punched in the gut! 

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they still had to keep up the pretense of heterosexuality (or bisexuality), even with each other

If they were trying to keep up the pretense, then how does that reconcile with a prior camping trip when Ennis asks Jack does her ever get the feeling that people "know"  -- ok now that is yet another line you and I can discuss back and forth Katherine, because to me Ennis' saying that is kind of an admission that there is someting to "know".

Does Ennis think that people "know" that he does things with his best bud Jack?

or

is he thinking that they "know" that he is homosexual? 

If it is the latter, then why does he blow up at Jack during the fight "All them things that I don't know, could get you killed if I should come to know 'em"?  Because that line has been explained to me as:  the reason Enns blows a gasket is bcz if Jack goes to Mexico to visit male prostitutes that makes Jack gay, and if Jack is gay ergo that means Ennis is gay too.

hmmmm
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2006, 01:15:09 pm »
If they were trying to keep up the pretense, then how does that reconcile with a prior camping trip when Ennis asks Jack does her ever get the feeling that people "know"  -- ok now that is yet another line you and I can discuss back and forth Katherine, because to me Ennis' saying that is kind of an admission that there is someting to "know".

Does Ennis think that people "know" that he does things with his best bud Jack?

or

is he thinking that they "know" that he is homosexual? 

If it is the latter, then why does he blow up at Jack during the fight "All them things that I don't know, could get you killed if I should come to know 'em"?  Because that line has been explained to me as:  the reason Enns blows a gasket is bcz if Jack goes to Mexico to visit male prostitutes that makes Jack gay, and if Jack is gay ergo that means Ennis is gay too.

Yeah, the "people know" scene -- or more to the point, the question of what Ennis himself "knows" and when he knows it -- seems endlessly debatable. I'm in the camp that favors this interpretation: Ennis pretty much knows, certainly by that point, if not by the first tent scene, if not by the time he's standing outside Aguirre's trailer, if not from the time he's forced to witness Earl. Whether he's fully conscious it is is also unclear, but I choose to think that it's at least clear enough that he gets it, even if he doesn't like to acknowledge it and does his best to suppress it.

As for the Mexico threat, that's a big controversy, too. (I hate to keep referring to old threads, but I started one myself a while back on that very subject. I say that only in case you're interested -- NOT to suggest that, hey, we've already discussed this and resolved the matter for once and for all, so there's nothing left to say about it. Personally, I think it is far from resolved and could discuss it forever. I think it's one of the big interpretation divides Brokies fall into.)

Anyway, my position is that Ennis' threat about Mexico is motivated more by jealousy than homophobia. Nonchalant as he is about Jack with other women, he does NOT like the possibility of Jack with other men. Evidence includes the fact that he doesn't blow up about Mexico the moment Jack mentions it, but only later, after Jack scares Ennis with the hint that their relationship may be ending ("I did, ONCE ..."). Ennis responds by lashing out, just as he did when threatened by the end of their relationship on Brokeback. And later, when Old Man Twist deliberately baits Ennis by mentioning "this other fella," Ennis' subtly hurt expression looks to me like nothing other than jealousy.

But one of the reasons that battle keeps raging is that the arguments on the other side are pretty strong, too. For example, if at least at some level what Ennis took from the Earl experience is that killing is an appropriate response to homosexuality ("the job") then perhaps he's just playing that out, in a way, in his threat to Jack.

Some people think that the big crisis and discovery that Ennis goes through at the end is acknowledging his own homosexuality. Personally, I think it's his realization that he should have honored his relationship with Jack -- not put shame and fear above love -- rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2006, 01:31:24 pm »
Forgive me if any of this got said above, I mostly read it all.

My memory is that the progression that leads up to Ennis getting involved with Cassie are: Alma confronts Ennis about Jack Nasty (which freaks him out unbelievably), then immediately comes the "you ever get the feeling people know?" scene, which leads immediately to Ennis finding Cassie's feet inhis lap.  I think he mostly gets involved with her so people won't wonder about him.  

I think he stays involved with her out of a sense of safety from people's wondering, and though gay, he can see she's a good-looking little gal, and she seems very accomodating to him.  And if it's not Jack he's with, it kind of doesn't matter who it is.  As to how he breaks up with her, I think he is so depressed by the lake scene as to become nearly inert, and he just doesn't have it in him to function enough to be courteous.  Not to mention that I'm sure he felt that she wouldn't make it easy to untangle her Chilean sheep from his.  So he took the cowardly way out.  He certainly should have said some little word after five fuckin' years together.  But in the pie scene, I think he clearly shows that he does feel like a schmuck for how he's treated her.

On to the original question - what does Cassie see in Ennis?   Well, he turns us into jabbering droolers, so isn't that enough?  I think what people have said - Respectful, pleasant, hard worker, and also very clean for a cowboy.  I imagine Ennis has walked through his whole life oblivious that almost every female of any age who meets him thinks he's the hottest thing around.  
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 01:33:36 pm by Elle-Effen'-Meno »

Offline welliwont

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2006, 02:05:21 pm »

On to the original question - what does Cassie see in Ennis?   Well, he turns us into jabbering droolers, so isn't that enough?  I think what people have said - Respectful, pleasant, hard worker, and also very clean for a cowboy.  I imagine Ennis has walked through his whole life oblivious that almost every female of any age who meets him thinks he's the hottest thing around. 


way t'get us back on topic Elle-Effen'Meno!!   :laugh:

Katherine:  I am in the process of reading old threads and looking to see if the topic we have been discussing has already been started in another thread, otherwise I am thinking of starting a new thread.  Your last reply has given me much fodder to digest, thank YOU!!  Talk to you again soon, I hope,  :-*

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2006, 02:30:22 pm »
...snip...On to the original question - what does Cassie see in Ennis?   Well, he turns us into jabbering droolers, so isn't that enough?  I think what people have said - Respectful, pleasant, hard worker, and also very clean for a cowboy.  I imagine Ennis has walked through his whole life oblivious that almost every female of any age who meets him thinks he's the hottest thing around.  

Add to that any gay man thinking he's the hottest thing around too! 

Actually this makes it all the more sad for Alma then Cassie - they probably both thought what a great catch they had, albeit on the superficial level of goodlooks.  And on the other hand, although Jack was "lucky" in that he turned Ennis's  head & heart (spun right around in fact), he was never able to show off to anyone or feel that sense of pride that comes from an acknowledgement of a relationship from your family, peers or just in public. 
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2006, 04:48:39 pm »
On to the original question - what does Cassie see in Ennis?   Well, he turns us into jabbering droolers, so isn't that enough?  I think what people have said - Respectful, pleasant, hard worker, and also very clean for a cowboy.  I imagine Ennis has walked through his whole life oblivious that almost every female of any age who meets him thinks he's the hottest thing around. 

I sure as hell agree with you, Elle (and Nic), you know I do. But -- and I find this hard to believe, myself -- it has come to my attention that there are people in this world, female and male, who DON'T think he's the hottest thing around. Only the second hottest thing.

This ...

I think he stays involved with her out of a sense of safety from people's wondering, and though gay, he can see she's a good-looking little gal, and she seems very accomodating to him.  And if it's not Jack he's with, it kind of doesn't matter who it is.  As to how he breaks up with her, I think he is so depressed by the lake scene as to become nearly inert, and he just doesn't have it in him to function enough to be courteous.  Not to mention that I'm sure he felt that she wouldn't make it easy to untangle her Chilean sheep from his.  So he took the cowardly way out.  He certainly should have said some little word after five fuckin' years together.  But in the pie scene, I think he clearly shows that he does feel like a schmuck for how he's treated her.

... seems exactly right, and is very well expressed. (Especially good deployment of Brokieisms!)


Offline welliwont

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2006, 05:05:29 pm »
But -- and I find this hard to believe, myself -- it has come to my attention that there are people in this world, female and male, who DON'T think he's the hottest thing around. Only the second hottest thing.

Yes, that would be me...


... seems exactly right, and is very well expressed. (Especially good deployment of Brokieisms!)


I agree.  hunerd percent.


Not to mention that I'm sure he felt that she wouldn't make it easy to untangle her Chilean sheep from his.  So he took the cowardly way out.  He certainly should have said some little word after five fuckin' years together.  But in the pie scene, I think he clearly shows that he does feel like a schmuck for how he's treated her.

I wish I'd a written that.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2006, 05:51:36 pm »
Katherine:  I am in the process of reading old threads and looking to see if the topic we have been discussing has already been started in another thread, otherwise I am thinking of starting a new thread.  Your last reply has given me much fodder to digest, thank YOU!!  Talk to you again soon, I hope,  :-*

Sorry, Jane -- I meant to respond to this earlier and somehow got distracted by the "hottest thing around" discussion.  ::)

(Speaking of which, does :P signify drooling or yuck? I've seen it used both ways.)

Anyway, Jane, I would encourage you to start a new thread; I don't think it has been discussed anytime recently, and there is always plenty to say about it!

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: "Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2006, 10:19:09 pm »
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