Author Topic: Parents and children  (Read 11057 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Parents and children
« on: June 13, 2006, 11:54:49 am »
This is a thread for discussion of any parent/child relationship in the movie or story -- Ennis and Jack with their parents, with their kids, Lureen with the Newsomes, and any others you think of.

To start things off, I'd like to ask how y'all feel about the frequent criticism of Jack and Ennis as bad parents. To me, this belongs in the same category as criticisms of their adultery -- by viewers who, for some reason, are not moved to criticize "Walk the Line" or a hundred other films on that basis.

Here is an exerpt from an otherwise fairly perceptive essay http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/01/AR2006020102477.html
by Stephen Hunter of the Washington Post:

The movie also misses the deepest joy of family, which is that sense of connection to the great wheel of life. Giving birth to, educating and loving a kid are among the profound joys of human existence. "Brokeback Mountain" cannot begin to imagine such a thing; that reality simply is not on its radar, and if you looked at the story from another vantage -- the children's -- it would be a different tale altogether: about greedy, selfish, undisciplined homosexuals who took out a contract in the heterosexual world, and abandoned it. They weren't true men; they failed at the man's one sacred duty on Earth, which is to provide.

This seems ridiculous to me. For one thing, both Jack and Ennis are caring fathers, more involved with their children than most 1970s dads, and all three kids are depicted as being pretty happy. Are Jack and Ennis the only people in history, in movies or real life, who made mistaken marriages and as a result had affairs or got divorced? What does their homosexuality have to do with it? Who would think to call Johnny Cash a "greedy, selfish, undisciplined heterosexual"? Yet Johnny is depicted -- in that movie, anyway -- as a much less involved and loving dad than Ennis and Jack.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2006, 01:55:54 pm »
That critic obviously either watched the movie with his own agenda clouding his eyes, or didn't watch it at all. I saw the "good mother" Alma tending to laundry while her two small children wailed despondently in the next room; then, when Ennis came in the house, he rushed to comfort them as soon as his hands were clean.

Also, the story says, "Alma, Jr...was born...and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with lifestock." Not many fathers are as happy with the smells and sounds of a new baby as Ennis is portrayed to be.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2006, 08:56:16 pm »
Wow - that passage from the Washington Post is so clueless, I hardly know how to begin dissing it!  ::)
That line "man's one sacred duty on Earth, [  ] is to provide" alone makes me sceptical. I seem to recall having read about a US organization called "Promise Keepers", that among other matters is perceived as anti-gay? I could well imagine that bit about sacred duty to have been written in a "promise keeper" context.

Anyway, just looking at film-Ennis's relationship with his daughters, we see a man that despite having grown up with the exact opposite of a caring and positive father as his own role model, loves his daughters and takes his responsibilities as their father seriously:

- He rushes to soothe and comfort them when they're crying as babies

- He cuts one of his precious "fishing trips" short to instead join his daughters on a picnic with the "fire and brimstone" crowd

- He sends the love of his life packing after one minute because he has his daughters visiting over the weekend (Granted, Ennis had other and more prevailing reasons to refuse Jack in the post-divorce scene, but the reason that he didn't even try to talk to Jack or make him stay a while, has to be that his girls are there.)

- He goes to Thanksgiving at his ex-wife's and her new husband's to be a good daddy to his daughters, however uncomfortable that setting must make him

- He keeps in touch with the girls, collecting them for weekend outings

- He cannot entertain the thought of leaving his daughters behind, so his idea of an unrealistic "fairy tale" life involves the girls coming with him to where he settles down

- He carefully pays child support, although it stretches his financial resources considerably, and even when it means he can't even meet up with the love of his life those measly 3 times a year.

- He promises to be there for Junior's wedding and overcomes his reluctance,  and he even finds the right words to make Junior happy when she comes to tell of her marriage



The girls on their part obviously love their father - another sign that he's not the kind of failure in that respect that the WP considers him.

All in all, I think the film has been very careful in deliberately depicting both Ennis and Jack as good, caring fathers - at any rate, doing a fantastically better job of it than their own fathers.

As for the guys "taking out contracts in the heterosexual world" - well, certainly Ennis at least obviously wanted children - that may have been one reason among several compelling ones why he went through with the marriage. The article seems to indicate that gays have no business wanting children, and no legitimate reason or even permission to contemplate fatherhood - because the only way to achieveing that is a heterosexual marriage which would of necessity be a sham. In addressing the issue from that angle they're deliberately overlooking the strength of one of the most deepset and instinctual human impulses, I think. 

But neither Jack nor Ennis define themselves as fathers *only* (does anyone do so??). There seems to be an intentional nuance in the depiction of Jack and Ennis and their respective priorities - Jack seems willing to leave his son behind if he can have a life with Ennis, Ennis doesn't seem at all able to imagine a life where he abandons his girls.  But be that as it may, neither Jack's son nor Ennis's daughters know anything about this, and so are not directly emotionally impacted by it.

However, Ennis *is* willing to stick to low-paying jobs and to quit them at any time - thus bringing less money home - perhaps that's where the WP's accusation about him being a poor provider comes in? They're closing their eyes to the significant portion of the Ennis-as-father portrayal, if so.

Granted, there are the two scenes where the girls witness Alma and Ennis fighting, and they must of course also have picked up on the uneasy, strained and increasingly cold relationship between their parents in their day-to-day life together. That, and the divorce, must have caused the girls much grief and anxiety, but I don't think they ever doubted either their mother's *or* their father's love for *them*....


Since I just wrote another post touching on Jack and Ennis as fathers in the film, I'll do the lazy thing here and link to that post instead of repeating it all:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1953.msg42085#msg42085
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 09:20:45 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2006, 10:26:20 pm »
Excellent points, Mikaela. I thought that was a very odd paragraph, myself. And you're right -- that last sentence does sound a bit Promise Keeperish, as opposed to something you'd read in a big national (even liberal) newspaper. Who is a movie critic to declare the rules on a man's sacred duty on earth?

And this sentence

nd if you looked at the story from another vantage -- the children's -- it would be a different tale altogether: about greedy, selfish, undisciplined homosexuals who took out a contract in the heterosexual world, and abandoned it.

is also ridiculous. If you looked at the story from the vantage of the children -- particularly Ennis' daughters, and particularly Alma -- you'd see a tale about a sympathetic, adored (if slightly mysterious) father. There's no sign that Alma Jr. is even slightly upset by her dad's divorce or romantic woes -- only by the work conflicts that dads of all sexual orientations must somehow balance with family life.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2006, 04:35:14 am »
I begun to write a posting on this thread yesterday, but couldn't finish it. Saved it on my pc to complete it today.
Now Mikaela has written nealry the same as I wanted. But I'll throw in my POV anyway.


Uuuuh, I don't even know where to begin to rip this comment of Stephen Hunter apart.

First, his world-view is apparently some decades outdated. "they failed at the man's one sacred duty on Earth, which is to provide". Gives me goosebumps,  but in a bad way. It's not man's duty, it's parents' duty to provide. And not only in terms of money, but even more to provide emotional warmth, closeness and love and security.
I'm really fed up with people who think it's a mother's job to stay at home and cluck around the kids 24 hours a day linke a hen, meanwhile the father's "sacred" duty is to make enough money.

Back on BBM:
Where and when did Ennis or Jack abandon their children or any kind of "contract with the heterosexual world"? They did marry and had children and they fullfilled the duties which go along with that. This is one of the points which is so sad in the movie: sometimes it's better to break wrong contracts (with the women) and negotiate a better solution (about the children) than to stick to wrong situations. Better for the sake of all people affected by it.

Jack may have been ready to leave Lureen for Ennis in a second - but to split up with your wife/husband doesn't mean to abandon your children.  And I think Mr. Hunter knows this very well. It's the old case of double standards. Like Katherine already said in her comparison to Johnny Cash. It's the old accusation about adultery and neglected family duties, which so many brought up on TOB.  And it was discussed over there ad nauseam.


Greedy, selfish and undisciplined? Did he see the movie at all? It was just the other way round: Ennis's duteousness towards his family was one of the reasons he said no to the sweet life with Jack (though it was not the most important one) and he cuts short at least one fishing trip for his girls. If he hadn't have to pay child support, maybe he even would have quit his job again to see Jack in August 1983.
Mikaela has already listed the details, so I won't repeat them here.

And for Jack: we don't see him interact with his family resp. Bobby as much as we see Ennis. But when we do, we see him as loving and caring father, too: the combine scene, "Teacher don't like me" scene (I can picture him nagging to the teacher, bitching and complaining repeatetly, like he did about Aguirre the first summer - it's cute  :) ). And at the Thanksgiving scene, he acts like any responsible parent should do. To Bobby he is calm but consequential, he doesn't yell at him but makes his point very clear in a responsible way.

I think there's nothing in the quoted paragraph I can agree with.


Offline nic

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2006, 08:56:38 am »
I have a personal angle on this theme: seeing the film version of BBM helped ease some of my anxieties about being a parent in myself in the future.  I have Ennis characteristics: built a shell around me, not open to many others, etc & other personal "baggage" that has always made me feel worried about having a family because of these types of personality traits, increasingly so just recently as I am at the age where I shouldn't leave it too much longer.  To see Ennis have that great father-daughter relationship with Alma Jnr was wonderful for me, as it reassured me that the unconditional love between a parent & child can naturally come to those who are emotionally reticent in other relationships. And the depth of it can help sustain either side through the really tough times life throws at us.

I know there are many examples in other situations but in BBM it shone through to me because I became so involved in the story for all the other aspects that make it a great story.  I'm not one to usually be wishy washy or what other people might call "silly" about such things so it's quite strange for me to draw comfort from a story like this.  It settled my worries in this respect & for that I am very grateful. But it is after all a human story and includes the full spectrum of human emotions.  Now I just have to worry about all the other practical stuff of having kids!!  :laugh:
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2006, 09:30:29 am »
Greedy, selfish and undisciplined? Did he see the movie at all? It was just the other way round

Another excellent point. How is going on a few fishing trips each year "greedy, selfish and undisciplined"? From the kids' perspective, it doesn't matter whether they were fishing or not -- most parents go out of town once in a while without the kids being permanently scarred. And you're right, Penth, in a sense the whole movie was about Ennis not being greedy, selfish and undisciplined enough.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 12:29:35 am »
Will said Mikaela. I think both Ennis and Jack were both good fathers. If it came down to it I think jack woukd be very reluctant to leave Bobbie behind, Ennis thought that through for him.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 12:37:04 am »
I javascript:void(0);
Angry
I'm really fed up with people who think it's a mother's job to stay at home and cluck around the kids 24 hours a day linke a hen, meanwhile the father's "sacred" duty is to make enough money.

 


Studies show that where there is a stay at home parent,especially very young children, children have much higher self esteem, get better grades, very less likely to to drugs etc. It is much better for parents to raise their own children, rather than leaving it to day care.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2006, 05:36:11 pm »
Studies show that where there is a stay at home parent,especially very young children, children have much higher self esteem, get better grades, very less likely to to drugs etc.

"Studies show..."
Well, one of the first things I've learned about studies and statistics is the following: Never trust in any statistics unless you've faked them yourself.
I know it's kind of cynical  and unfair, because you can counter any argument with this sentence. But it shows us to be careful with any kind of studies and statistics as a general rule.

I happen to have dealt with this very topic during my studies. There's a special part of psychology which adresses to the development of children. I hope I translate it right, I think it's called "Developmental psychology" ("Entwicklungspsychologie" in German, if anybody can help me out here). Hope you know what I mean.

Most studies I've seen say (in a nutshell) that the proper development of children into healthy, well-adjusted persons depends not on the question whether or not the main attachment figure of a child is working or not. But the more weightily impact is the contentment of the main attachment figure with his/her personal working/not working situation.
Understood that only the impact of the working/not-working situation of the main attachment figure is taken into account of what I said.

Now add the fact that in real life there are many more factors of influence to the development of children. And the fact that psychology, pedagogics and similar sciences do often deal with soft-data.

(Excursus: again I hope my translation is correct or at least understandable. For example: how do you measure self-esteem? High self-esteem, low self-esteem? Depends on the definition the scientist prefers and on the variables he therefore chooses = soft data
Hard data = anything you can measure exactly, you can count: How tall is the average male US citizen? Which is the average annual temperature in Anchorage? And so on.
I don't have the vocabulary of scientific language in English, so please forgive that I have to explain long winded.)

Given the factors I mentioned, I simply do not believe the equation you set up. Hope that doesn't sound rude (if so, this one is to apologize:  :-*). And sure you don't have to agree with me, it's ok to have different opinions.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2006, 10:30:23 pm »
I am glad I came upon this thread, and I since I did, I have tried to read and absorb the comments, so forgive me if i repeat any of the comments that have all ready been made.

I am the child of a homosexual father, who left my mother, when I was seven, to live with his partner....all this happened in the late 50's.....when divorce was not as prevelent as it is today.

From what I can remember, at aged seven, I did not go thru a lot of trauma, back then, it was to just go with the flow of life....even moving to a different city, didnt disturb me that much, I dont have any memories of crying myself to sleep, or even wishing that it wasnt happening.

As I got older, into my early teens, my mother was now living with a new partner, my dad and his partner were still living together....it was trying to explain to my friends then, where each one of them fitted into my life...I was embarrassed that my parents were divorced, and did try to hide that...my mother and her new partner, gave me a home to live in, an education and security.....my father and his partner, gave me somewhere to go every second or third weekend, and spend my holidays.....maybe because I was only seven when it all started, I had just accepted that this was MY way of life.

Of course, in my childhood and early teens, I did not know my dad was homosexual, I just assumed that He and his partner were "mates" who decided to live together...His partner was only 11 years older than me, and he was like a big brother, and I loved him like that, and he loved me like that.

Eventually when I was 17 and had just got engaged to be married, my dad sat me down and told me, that he was homosexual....I guess it wasnt that big a shock, maybe i did know there was something there between them, but back then, the word wasnt bandied around like it is now, and I just didnt have a name for it, until Dad said it.

It still wasnt that traumatic...back then, we seemed to accept things that our parents did without question....whatever our parents did, was all right by us....my fiance accepted it, in the same way that I did....him and I married in 1969 and we are still enjoying a wonderful marriage.

I think what I am trying to say here, is that, it wasnt as painful or traumatic as people may think it is....Divorce, no matter why it happens, can be a bad experience for children, I dont doubt that for one minute, and if the divorcing parents are sensible, and nice to one another, it makes it so much easier on the kids....thats what happened with me....I dont think people give kids credit, for their acceptance of what life bestows on them.

Ennis was a lot like my father.....he made sure he gave financial support, he was always in my life, and he was always there for emotional support.

When I saw the movie, it made me realize the depth of the love that my dad had for his partner, all those years ago, and I dont think he was selfish, for leaving my mum and me to have that love....we all survived and lived with it, and made our lives how we needed to, to make ourselves happy.My mum and me, went on to find love too.

When i watched the movie, I kept thinking, "Ennis, go with Jack, the kids will survive ok, go and have the love you deserve".....

When Alma Jnr went to see Ennis to tell him she was getting married, I saw ME, doing exactly the same thing, I was hoping Ennis would tell her about him and Jack, like my dad told me about him and his partner.

I think that scene showed, that it didnt really make any difference that Ennis stayed, this outcome would have been the same whether he had stayed or not....Alma Jnr, had found her own love, and she was going to lead the life she wanted to have, and that was going to happen, whether Ennis stayed with Alma, or Ennis had gone with Jack.......I think Ennis realized that as well, and thats why when he held the shirts and said "I Swear"...he meant, if he could have it all over again, he would not have chosen the path that he did.

Also, it makes no difference if the reason for a marriage break up is the result of two men falling in love, or a man and a woman falling in love..the outcome is still the same, so for the author of that original story, to put shit on the characters in Brokeback Mountain, is very homophobic, and not reality.....just because a marriage breaks up, or a father leaves the marital home to love someone else, that doesnt mean, he still doesnt love his kids in the same way, as he would, if he were there every day with them.Every parent would know that.

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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2006, 11:08:08 pm »
This is a thread for discussion of any parent/child relationship in the movie or story -- Ennis and Jack with their parents, with their kids, Lureen with the Newsomes, and any others you think of.


This seems ridiculous to me. For one thing, both Jack and Ennis are caring fathers, more involved with their children than most 1970s dads, and all three kids are depicted as being pretty happy. Are Jack and Ennis the only people in history, in movies or real life, who made mistaken marriages and as a result had affairs or got divorced? What does their homosexuality have to do with it? Who would think to call Johnny Cash a "greedy, selfish, undisciplined heterosexual"? Yet Johnny is depicted -- in that movie, anyway -- as a much less involved and loving dad than Ennis and Jack.



I would definatley agree with you.  They both seemed to be caring fathers...at least the best they could be.  As a matter of fact in the scene where Ennis is with his children in the truck and Jack drives up, Ennis actually turns away Jack in order to be with his kids.  Or Jack driving with his son in the combine and they look like they are having a great time!  My father and mother divorced when I was very young and they sure didn't spend time with me like Jack or Ennis did with their kids in the movie.  In the end homosexuality has nothing to do with it!  It's all based on who we are as people.

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2006, 12:06:10 am »
being lesbian or gay has nothing to do with raising children, or teaching them to be a good hearted person.  Everyday my husband and I struggle, just like any other parent to remain a healthy and happy family, and we are from the perfect family we want to be.... I guess my point is that is does not matter on partner preferance, it is what you teach the child.  And I also truely believe that the child not only learns from the parent, but that world also teaches them lessons.  Like T.v teaches things as well I can tell man stories of our kids and the stuff they pick up on t.v.   

Ennis and Jack were the best fathers they could try to be.  Jack had a father that to me believe the best treatment for a child was silencenot being close to him anyway.   And Ennis who had his father pass away at a young age, had his father mess with his mind and show him a man dead who had been dragged around by is privates.  In saying this I think they turned out better then allot of people could have believed that they could be

Offline Momof2

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2006, 09:42:30 am »
I will tell you what is selfish.  It is selfish that society is so horrible to homosexuals that they marry and try to live a "normal life".  It is sad when any family splits.  As long as parents love their children it does not matter where they live.  My mother and father divorced when I was three.  My father lived many hours away from us.  I saw him as often as I could and talked to him all of the time.  Never, not one time did I doubt his love for me or my sisters. 

I have a very good friend that was married to a man that was gay.  He did it because his family would have "died" if they found out he was gay.  All it did was cause problems.  He did not love her because he wanted to be with another person.  She was hurt because he did not want to be intimate with her.  Just a big mess.  Thank goodness she left before they did have kids.  She told me she was not bitter, she just wished he would have told her sooner. There are many straight parents that divorce and destroy their kids lives.

Jack and Ennis were good parents.  If not they would have done what they wanted to-- be together.  I too lived with the misconception that I could not ever leave my kids with my inlaws to get away with my husband.  I finally realized that it was ok.  Now my husband and I let them stay at my inlaws and we go somewhere for the weekend.  Any couple needs that away time.  I am glad and sad that Jack and Ennis had those times together. 

It is both parents responsibility to take care of ALL the needs of their children.  Al that is required to be a good parent is to love your kids and be good to them. 

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2006, 02:12:33 pm »
Studies show that where there is a stay at home parent,especially very young children, children have much higher self esteem, get better grades, very less likely to to drugs etc. It is much better for parents to raise their own children, rather than leaving it to day care.

Mark, I know the conversation had moved on, and Chrissi already made a response to this that I wholly agree with, but I could not resist adding my own opinion here. I have written extensively about parenting issues, including the value of parents staying home vs. daycare. In fact, the most reliable studies show only very minor differences between kids in daycare programs vs. kids with an at-home parent. Furthermore, to the extent that there are small differences between kids that correlate with their care arrangements, it can't be determined whether they demonstrate a cause-and-effect relationship. As with so many questions surrounding parenting, people tend to confuse correlation with causation. In fact, the correlation could indicate 1) causation in the other direction (kids placed in daycare BECAUSE they are hard to handle) 2) the result of some third factor (families in which one parent stays home by choice are often more affluent; affluence is associated with better grades and lower drug use) 3) unrelated and coincidental.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2006, 02:20:47 pm »
Mark, I know the conversation had moved on, and Chrissi already made a response to this that I wholly agree with, but I could not resist adding my own opinion here. I have written extensively about parenting issues, including the value of parents staying home vs. daycare. In fact, the most reliable studies show only very minor differences between kids in daycare programs vs. kids with an at-home parent. Furthermore, to the extent that there are small differences between kids that correlate with their care arrangements, it can't be determined whether they demonstrate a cause-and-effect relationship. As with so many questions surrounding parenting, people tend to confuse correlation with causation. In fact, the correlation could indicate 1) causation in the other direction (kids placed in daycare BECAUSE they are hard to handle) 2) the result of some third factor (families in which one parent stays home by choice are often more affluent; affluence is associated with better grades and lower drug use) 3) unrelated and coincidental.

I stand with  my original statement. When children are small the most valuable thing to be given to then is your (parents) time. They don't care about how fancy a car they ride in, etc. I think  its tragic  to send young children to day car from 9-6.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2006, 02:35:18 pm »
I stand with  my original statement. When children are small the most valuable thing to be given to then is your (parents) time. They don't care about how fancy a car they ride in, etc. I think  its tragic  to send young children to day car from 9-6.

There are so many assumptions behind this that I can't even begin to address them.

I guess the one thing that I do want to point out is that gut feelings and "studies show..." statements about what's best for children have been used against gays and lesbians, over and over. Used to deny same-sex couples the right to marry, used to deny gay men and women the right to adopt children or care for foster children or visit their own biological children. And I think in both cases, it's worth looking at the studies to see what they really say (or what hidden biases they contain), and questioning whether the general assumptions that we make about what's best for children really are true.

I think that Ennis and Jack were great dads. They should never have been husbands, but they seem to be wonderful fathers.

Kids need love. But they don't need to get it from a traditional heterosexual family, with a working father and a stay-at-home mother. They can be raised well (or raised poorly) by grandparents, adoptive parents, gay couples, nannies, daycare, stay-at-home parents...
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2006, 04:40:29 pm »
Kids need love. But they don't need to get it from a traditional heterosexual family, with a working father and a stay-at-home mother. They can be raised well (or raised poorly) by grandparents, adoptive parents, gay couples, nannies, daycare, stay-at-home parents...

I think you hit the nail on the head, here.  I think that the reason so many kids and young adults are so disconnected from their parents today is not because their parents stuck them in day care, but because their parents didn't pay attention to them when they were with them.  Now that I'm a parent of a four-year-old, I've seen a lot of different parenting styles.  I've seen parents who stay home with their kids and systematically ignore them all day long, then wonder why they "act out" so much.  I've seen parents who put their kids in day care so that they can afford, eventually, to put them through private school (down here, the public schools are really lacking compared with those in most other states) and college, who spend quality time with them when they're together and the kids are some of the most well-adjusted, mature kids their age I've ever seen.  I've seen parents who are divorced and who both systematically ignore the kids one way or another (and big surprise - the poor kids are brats), and I've seen parents who are divorced who both give their all to their kids when they're with them, and again, the kids are well-adjusted and mature for their age.

Like you said, naky, children just need love.  Unconditional, constant love.  That doesn't mean dote on them or spoil them - it just means PAY ATTENTION TO THEM.  As long as at least one parent and/or care-giver is doing that as much as humanly possible, they're going to be just fine.

Oh, and by the way, I think Ennis and Jack were both good parents - because when they were with their kids, they paid attention to them (well, except for that one time after Ennis and Alma fought - that's understandable).  That's more than I can say for mine at various and sundry times.  And that explains a lot, come to think of it...

(Edited for intolerable (by me) grammatical errors)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 05:13:36 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 12:57:18 am »
I stand with  my original statement. When children are small the most valuable thing to be given to then is your (parents) time. They don't care about how fancy a car they ride in, etc. I think  its tragic  to send young children to day car from 9-6.

Sorry, I'm with Kat and Chrissi on this as well.  If you believe that stay at home parents do better by their children then by all means.  But unfortunately, studies do not support your opinion.

A friend of mine and her siblings were raised by her stay at home mom, while her doctor father worked.  Her mother spent most of her time stoned on valium and martinins.  I think my friend might have preferred a daycare.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 01:04:37 am »
Sorry, I'm with Kat and Chrissi on this as well.  If you believe that stay at home parents do better by their children then by all means.  But unfortunately, studies do not support your opinion.

A friend of mine and her siblings were raised by her stay at home mom, while her doctor father worked.  Her mother spent most of her time stoned on valium and martinins.  I think my friend might have preferred a daycare.
Of course she would wth an addictive mother.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 01:09:42 am »
Of course she would wth an addictive mother.

So needless to say, staying at home with the kids isn't the important part.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2006, 01:20:32 am »
So needless to say, staying at home with the kids isn't the important part.
It is if the parent are matures and ready to take on raising children. Child who know they come first before careers, status, will have a much higher self esteem. When dumped of at  day care or left to a nanny they cam't help but feel unimportant.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2006, 01:44:27 am »
It is if the parent are matures and ready to take on raising children. Child who know they come first before careers, status, will have a much higher self esteem. When dumped of at  day care or left to a nanny they cam't help but feel unimportant.

It's quite possible to help kids feel important even if they attend a daycare program based on how you interact when you get home (for the record, my own kids never attended daycare more than 15 to 20 hours a week, but I am a strong believer that many caregiving arrangements are just fine).

In any case, kids are surprisingly resillient, and many of the differences between small children are a result of how they're hardwired. The reason studies don't support your self-esteem contention (there is no reliable study that I know of correlating self-esteem levels with caregiver arrangements) is that it's perfectly possible for kids in daycare to have high self esteem and kids with at-home parents to have low self-esteem. For that matter, I'm sure there are even some kids with at-home moms who pop valiums and drink martinis all day who have high self-esteem (the kids, I mean; not necessarily the moms), and some kids whose moms and dads sit on the floor playing Candyland with them all day who have low self-esteem.

One prominent developmental psychologist put it this way (going from memory): "Don't lock your kid in a closet, don't hit him with a frying pan, and he should turn out OK." Or something to that effect. The point being, kids who are raised in reasonably normal and healthy environments by loving, caring, conscientious parents will be just fine. Or they won't. But the difference won't be a matter of whether they were placed in daycare programs or not.

Offline Momof2

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2006, 09:14:57 am »
I came from a really screwed up family.  Department of Human Services would have probably removed us if they did that kind of thing back then.  I have 2 sisters and 1 brother.  My oldest sister died and my little brother is an alcoholic.  My other sister has her share of problems, but for the most part is ok.  I think I turned out rather well.  It made me a stronger person.  I did have a lot of self esteem issues while younger.  I graduated from college in the top of my class, I have a wonderful job.  I am married to an unbelievable man and have to 2 children that other than being spoiled are doing fine.  I do think alot of it is how you are raised but alot of it is inside of you.  I am very assertive and strong willed.  My daughter is just like me. 

On the other hand, my best friend in high school was the daughter of a Baptist preacher.  Her and her 7 brothers and sisters were wild.  Drugs, sex whatever.  She has been  married two times and had 2 abortions while in high school.  Her mother stayed at home with them and her father worked for God.  I mean if they were screwed up it just goes to show it really does not matter if you go to daycare or stay home.  Any one can be screwed up.  My kids went to daycare until they started school and I think it was a wonderful experience for them.  Neither one wanted to go home when I got there and they were further ahead in Kindergarten than most of their classmates.

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2006, 09:33:51 am »
I agree, Momof2.

I don't think it's all black or white, stay at home or day care, breast feed or formula feed, spank or not spank.  I don't think one is all right and one is all wrong.  As a parent, you have to do what's best for you and your child.  I stayed at home for the first three years of my son's life.  I started going back to work part-time when he started going to preschool.  That was a perfect blend - the best of both worlds - Nirvana.  But of course all good things must come to an end - the company offered me a full-time position.  I knew they were going to be phasing out contracting work eventually, and I love the company and the job.  So after talking it over with my husband (who was all for it, by the way) and giving it a good deal of thought, I took it.  I'm fortunate enough not to truly need a second income to make ends meet.  We wanted to have extra money not to buy nicer cars and go on nicer vacations (our cars were bought used and are fully paid-for, and we'll drive them until they die, and we haven't been on a real vacation together in years), but so we could pay for private school if needed and a good college for our son.  People, all women, have actually said to me "Why are you going back to work when you don't have to?"  My answer is "Actually, I do have to.  There are other reasons for needing to work that aren't entirely financial."

My son is 4 1/2 and goes to preschool from 9 to 5 five days a week.  When my husband's home from trips, he picks him up at 3:00 (at the end of the actual school day) and spends the afternoons with him.  On weekends, we spend every waking moment with him.  We rarely get sitters and go out because we'd rather stay home and spend more time with him in the evenings.  Isn't it better to have parents who are happy to be with you when they're with you and who pay attention to you and enjoy you than ones who are with you all day every day and up to their ears in you and always looking for ways to avoid dealing with you any more than they have to?  Of course there are stay at home parents who give their kids as much quality time as possible.  But I'm just saying it's possible to do that when you're not always with them, too.  And sometimes it's better that way for everyone.  And please don't say, "Well, if you didn't want to be with your kid 24/7, you shouldn't have had one."  That's crap.  I don't care who you are - NO ONE wants to be with ANYONE 24/7.  Not day in, day out, year in, year out.  If you do, I think you need to start looking at whether you're a tremendous parent or co-dependent.
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2006, 10:30:27 am »
I've called guys on the "careers shouldn't come first" thing. (One of them was essentially proposing to me at the time.) When I asked if they would stay home with kids, they had all kinds of excuses, but the answer was always no. (And the guy who was proposing didn't even know what he wanted to do for a career, while I did. I said "no" to the marriage proposal. Best damn decision I've ever made.)

My work isn't a job. It's a calling. And if I completely quit my job, I would never be able to go back to what I do; that's the way my profession works. (Yes, that is a problem with my profession. But it's only something that can be changed from within, I think.) I negotiated a year's leave (which was very unusual; I took a big risk by even suggesting it) to stay home with my son. But his daycare is a great place -- he gets to be with other kids, coloring and painting and dancing and singing songs and dressing up in lion costumes and watching bugs and playing in a sandbox.

I refuse to feel guilty for being a mother, or for doing the work that I love. I'm glad to hear that developmental psychologists seem to agree with my own perceptions, but if they didn't... well, I would be annoyed that so few men that I have known are willing to accept their share of the guilt. (I mean, I know more straight men who love Brokeback Mountain than I know stay-at-home dads. Like, four or five times as many.)
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Offline Momof2

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 11:04:03 am »
 (I mean, I know more straight men who love Brokeback Mountain than I know stay-at-home dads. Like, four or five times as many.)
[/quote]

That  is so funny.  And sad.  My husband is a firefighter and when we had our daughter (our 1st child) he kept her the days he was off.  I was a little surprized at first.  Then all the women I worked with were telling me how lucky I was that I had a good husband.  I thought, No, how lucky my daughter is that she has a daddy that loves her and wants to spend time with her and care for her needs.  When our son was born he did the same.  He keeps them during the summer when he is off.  It is wonderful for the three of them.  The only drawback is that my son misses his friends and WANTS to go to school. 

It is sad that a lot of men do not see it as part of their responsibilties.  Then on the other hand I know men that are the "caregivers" for their children because their wives do not care to do it.  It goes both ways.  It does not really matter which parent or type of parent (straight, gay, step) as long as they love the child and have their best interest at heart.

One of our male friends made the comment to my husband about "babysitting" our kids.  I told him, "You do not babysit your own children you idiot.  It is called being a parent.  I said something to his wife about it and she said that they were jealous that my husband kept our kids.  I said, "He does not do it for me, he does it because he loves his kids and enjoys being a part of their lives." 
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 12:33:08 pm »
My husband gets that a lot.  He's home about half the time (he's an airline pilot).  When he's home, he pretty much takes care of our son most of the time, whether I'm working those days or not.  People will call him "Mr. Mom."  Lately, when someone calls him that, he says, "Mr. Dad, actually."
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Offline Momof2

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2006, 12:36:27 pm »
Great response. 
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Offline Katie77

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2006, 10:26:31 pm »
After reading most of the posts on here, the one thing that stands out the most about being a good parent is giving the child plenty of attention....

My two sons are 32 and 35, and now parents themselves.....

They grew up in a stable family, we both worked, but every other waking moment was spent with our boys...

When they got to their teens, they started using drugs, marihuana, started bucking socieity, started doing things that we were not very proud of and disappointed in them for doing....

When all this began, me and my husband started to question our way of parenting...what did we do wrong, were we bad parents, didnt we do something right?????.....so as well as dealing with the problems the kids were throwing at themselves and us, we were also dealing with our guilt that we were not good parents.

After a couple of years of this, along with councelling and talking to others in the same situation, we finally said....."NO.....WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE THE BLAME ANYMORE FOR WHAT OUR KIDS ARE DOING".....We had done our best, we had set a good example, and we had shown be example what we expected as a family unit.

Once we thought this way, we found it easier to fight the demons that were plaguing our kids, what we found that was when we were blaming ourselves, it allowed them to blame us too, for their bad behaviour.....once that stopped and we told them, "dont blame us anymore....you are responsible", it took away their excuse for not taking care of their own destiny themselves.....

No family, no matter who works or who doesnt, or who stays together or separates, or earns more money than some others...no one is immune from teens or young adults going off the rails.We are fools if we think we are........

It has taken a long time.....a long, painful, expensive, sad journey, but we have survived, and they have survived to finally lead a respectable life,to be good husbands and fathers, to have self esteem, and to be proud of themselves.

Maybe the education department should teach less of subjects that our kids will never use in their adult life, and maybe start teaching them how to be adults, partners and parents.....That is what is going to be the most important part of their future.

For all the books printed on childhood, teenagers, young adults, old adults, whats right or wrong, which way to bring them up.....really, has anyone or can anyone ever get it right.....We as parents, just have to do our best.......

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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Parents and children
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2006, 10:46:14 pm »
I hear you and am with you, Katie. Something tells me your kids will turn out just fine in the end.

One thing I realized tonite about Ennis...his parenting skills were the result of something primal. Annie P. wrote that the smell of milk and sound of babies crying and Alma groaning were "reassuring of fecundity and life's continuity to one accustomed to working with livestock." He approached parenting on a very basic level, one without words or psychology books. I'm thinking that's why he and Alma Jr. were on the same wavelength to where they could finish each other's sentences.
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