Why are we like this?

[serious crayons]

"Why do we care so much?  Who are we?"

Ellemeno asked these questions on another thread, one in which participants have been spending countless hours analyzing impossibly minute, almost invisible, details of the movie. I've long wondered those same things myself. What is it about us that makes us so crazy -- and I do mean crazy, but in a good way -- about Brokeback Mountain?

When I met Front-Ranger recently, we discovered that we both love fish tacos, and wondered, sort of jokingly, if there might be correlation between Brokeback-loving and fish taco-loving. (Results of a poll proved inconclusive, though did produce some good recipes.) Then yesterday I met YaadPyar and we were wondering, in a mystified way, what we all have in common that might explain this passion. I started reeling off what I assumed were obvious basic commonalities: "Well, we're open-minded, we like to analyze things, we like movies -- " and she stopped me to point out she's normally not all that into movies!

So what is it about us? I've seen this question raised before -- have raised it myself, in fact -- but I can't say I've ever been fully satisfied with the answer. We have different ages, genders, religions, sexual orientations, ethnicities, personalities, jobs, backgrounds, cities, hobbies, families, favorite cowboys  ...  We even have different reasons to hang out at BetterMost: some love to dissect the movie, some more interested in building community, and so on. And if we do have a few things in common, those characteristics aren't exclusive to Brokeback-lovers. Lots of people who are open-minded and analytical and like movies preferred Capote!

The one thing we all seem to share (or at least, to have shared at some point) is this huge, unexplainable, consuming passion for one particular movie (and/or short story). But why?!?!??

[Front-Ranger]

FOr one thing, I have to start out by giving credit to Annie Proulx for developing an eponymous story that applies to everyone no matter what our age, gender, orientation, location, etc. I like to think back to that day in October, 1997, when The New Yorker came  in the mail and think about you, me, Diana Ossana, and Randy Quaid (!) all reading the story at the same time and having the same reaction. If that isn't a universal story, I don't know what is!!

[serious crayons]

FOr one thing, I have to start out by giving credit to Annie Proulx for developing an eponymous story that applies to everyone no matter what our age, gender, orientation, location, etc. I like to think back to that day in October, 1997, when The New Yorker came  in the mail and think about you, me, Diana Ossana, and Randy Quaid (!) all reading the story at the same time and having the same reaction. If that isn't a universal story, I don't know what is!!

I agree totally, F-R, but in practice it's not universal -- lots of people enjoyed the movie or story or both, but weren't overwhelmed with emotions. (To be honest, I was one of those people in regard to the story -- I liked it a lot as literature, but then blithely moved on with my normal life -- until I saw the movie. I know that plenty of others, yourself included, who were originally moved by the story.)

So I guess the question is both, what makes this movie and/or story different from all others, and also, what makes US different from all others who were exposed to them, liked them just fine, but weren't consumed by them?

To put it in personal terms, what is it that is causing me, five months (five months!) after first seeing the movie to still wake up thinking about it every single morning? When I detach myself long enough to consider that, I find it just plain weird. I loved "Memento," for instance, but didn't think about it longer than a few days -- and then only in the most casual, occasional way. I realize Brokeback is a different kind of movie, with more of an emotional impact, but still ... ?!? I don't tend to think in these terms, but it's almost like a mystical thing.

[ednbarby]

Shoot.  I wish I knew.  I'm continually being surprised both by people liking it whom I was sure wouldn't and by people not liking it whom I was sure would.

For what it's worth, one who falls in the former camp returned one of my two "lenders" to me yesterday and basically said he really liked it because it "stays with you" like a "great book you finish reading and find the characters live inside your head for a long time afterwards."  He said he prefers books and movies like that to fluffy ones that you walk away from and don't give another thought.

All the other common thread trial balloons I've attempted to fly have so far crashed and burned.  Is this one thing we all have in common?

[serious crayons]

All the other common thread trial balloons I've attempted to fly have so far crashed and burned.  Is this one thing we all have in common?

I know, they all have for me, too. I keep trying, though. It MUST be something mystical. Either that, or I'm going to have to join the "Ang Lee inserted subliminal one-frame messages in some copies of the film" camp, and assume that all those people who aren't here just saw different copies.

[opinionista]

I think it is because Brokeback Mountain is one of those movie that has a mirror effect (I don't know if that's correct). What I mean is that we all find ourselves represented in Ennis or Jack, or both and in their tribulations, fears, doubts, pain, happiness and unhappiness. It doesn't matter if we don't share their sexual orientation. At least in my case, I haven't seen a movie that depicts a love story so close to real life, as this one. Love is not about falling for a perfect person and living happily ever after, as it is shown in many Hollywood movies. Love is imperfect and hard to deal with. It's a struggle, as Jake Gyllenhaal puts it, and that's what Brokeback Mountain is about, among other things of course.

[Front-Ranger]

That was very astute, opin! I've noticed that I don't necessarily identify with the protagonist in movies or with the person who is most like me, or even with someone who is the same gender as me. With Ennis and Jack, it was very easy to identify with one or both of them and slip into their character. Does anyone wake up after dreaming that they were Ennis or Jack, like I do? Or Alma or Lureen??

[serious crayons]

Oooh, good question, F-R!  In "real life," I identify with different characters at different times, depending on the situation. But when dreaming, oddly enough, I'm not usually one of the characters -- I dream I'm just watching the characters, as if they were in a movie!

[ednbarby]

Oooh, good question, F-R!  In "real life," I identify with different characters at different times, depending on the situation. But when dreaming, oddly enough, I'm not usually one of the characters -- I dream I'm just watching the characters, as if they were in a movie!

Same here.  When I used to dream about Ennis and Jack every night, it was as if I were just an extra in the movie watching them.  And we were all always in a bar or roadhouse or at a party at someone's house, for what that's worth.

[gattaca]

As a gay man (does it matter? I don't know why I felt I needed to say that), this film impacted me more than any other film I have ever watched. I am reeling.

I identify so closely with Ennis I feel like I've met my doppelganger. It reached into my heart and squeezed until it burst. I stuff feelings just like Ennis does. It's like Annie Proulx snuck into my head while I was sleeping and willed Ennis into existence.

There's more - a lot more - but I'm at work, so I'll need to elaborate a little later.

[Penthesilea]

I agree totally, F-R, but in practice it's not universal -- lots of people enjoyed the movie or story or
both, but weren't overwhelmed with emotions. (To be honest, I was one of those people in regard to
the story -- I liked it a lot as literature, but then blithely moved on with my normal life -- until I saw
the movie. I know that plenty of others, yourself included, who were originally moved by the story.)

So I guess the question is both, what makes this movie and/or story different from all others, and
also, what makes US different from all others who were exposed to them, liked them just fine, but
weren't consumed by them?

To put it in personal terms, what is it that is causing me, five months (five months!) after first seeing
the movie to still wake up thinking about it every single morning? When I detach myself long enough
to consider that, I find it just plain weird. I loved "Memento," for instance, but didn't think about it
longer than a few days -- and then only in the most casual, occasional way. I realize Brokeback is a
different kind of movie, with more of an emotional impact, but still ... ?!? I don't tend to think in
these terms, but it's almost like a mystical thing.

I loved "Memento", too. Before BBM. it was my favourite movie. But on a totally different level
and kind. Maybe this is the solution   ?

Seriously now:
The question you (and others) have raised is important to me, too. I have asked it myself many,
many times and still don't know the answer.
And I have discussed it with the only fellow-Brokie I know in person. Only thing that we were able to say about it, is that something like this (or even near like this) has never occurred to us before BBM.  Neither with a book nor a movie. If somebody had told me this three months ago, I would have denied it that something like this is the slightest possibility for me. If other persons told me they had such feelings about a movie/story, I would have said: get a life.

On the risk of sounding pathetic, the only comparison I can make in attempt to descibe the way BBM
has occupied my mind, is: it's like being fallen in love. I remember the feeling when you think of a person literally the whole day. Every waking hour this person is on your mind. Sometimes in the background, like under the surface of your mind. But always present and most of the time pretty much conscious.

But this is a story, not a person. And not even a true story, just fiction.
On the first sight, it has nothing to do with my personal life. I'm born in the late sixties in Europe and grew up and live in totally different circumstances (no cowboys far and wide  ), I'm not gay, I'm happily married, have three wonderful kids and am pretty much happy and satisfied with my life. Though some minor things are bugging me in regard to my job-related future.

After some sleepless hours at night (sleepless hours because of a movie - unthinkable before BBM) I found out that BBM in fact has to do some things with my life in the past. For this it's an universal story, as so often said. Everybody can relate to one or another topic in BBM.

Okay - I have to get it out somehow. I never posted this anywhere, I began sometimes to write it down, but everytime I deleted it, because it's so personal. And I don't know whether I will be deleting it again or posting it this time.
Rather no big deal -but why the hell am I so hesistant of posting it then?

For me personally, it hit me during a waking night hour. After meeting a very special part of my family on a birthday party and reading a certain expression on IMDB later the same evening. That expression as "living in a shell" and it meant Ennis and Jack during the times between their trips.

I grew up in two homes, in two different places, I had two pairs of parents. One were my biological mother and father, the other pair of parents were my aunt and uncle. I called them "mom" and "dad", too.

I felt at home only in one of these places, only with one of my pairs of parents. Unfortunately this was not with my biological parents, but with my parents and sisters who were "officially" my aunt, uncle and cousins. But I had to live with my biological parents for most of the time.

Living in a shell. This is exactly how I felt during my childhood and teenage years. That was not me, that child who lived with my biological parents. It was not my true self. I just survived. I only felt really alive and happy when I was with my other parents and sisters.

And then there was a year during which I was not allowd to go home at all. My biological parents tried to cut off the contact between me and my family completely. For a whole year, I was not allowed to see them, not allowed to go home. Neither of my pairs of parents had a phone, so I could not call. All we could do was to write each other for one year.
This year was hell for me

All these things happened so long ago. More than 20 years ago. And I thought, I had come over it. The story had (and still has) a happy end for me. I grew up, I can call and meet my family whenever I want to.
And I met my husband and have a family of my own today.

Brokeback has stirred all these things up in me again.   

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I have been sitting in front of my computer for half an hour, considering whether to post this or not.
I'm afraid it has gotten somehow off topic.
It doesn't explain the phenomenon of BBM. And it explains only a part of why BBM is important to me.

I know in which way I can relate to the lives of Ennis and Jack. But I knew all these things about my life before BBM, I never forgot it. It's nothing new or groundbreaking.

I still can not understand why I am so captured by it.

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, I agree with U, it's exactly like being in love, that first wonderful rush of infatuation. But this is six months later!! Thank you for sharing your moving story Pent.

[serious crayons]

Shit, that's hard. Seriously, Penth -- I don't mean that in a glib or joking way. It sounds like a really hard experience to go through. Thanks for finding the courage to share it here. And please don't ever worry about going OT on this particular topic -- it's such a difficult question that going OT may be the only way we can hope to get at the answers.

What is so mysterious about this is that all of us have different reasons for being here, all the differences in background and so on that I talked about in the OP. But when we start to describe our reactions we sound eerily alike.

When I read your description of your reaction, for example, I can relate exactly. It is like falling in love. But I would never, ever say that to anyone in the outside world. They would think I was nuts. And I would have to agree. In love with a movie? That just doesn't make any sense. Before January 2006, I wouldn't ever have imagined myself it possible, for me anyway.

Glad to know another Memento-lover! And you're right, it has a different kind of appeal. After I saw it the first time, I did spend a day or two looking it up on the internet, reading reviews and analyses. I read the original short story on which it was based (it was written by the director's brother, published in Esquire, and is very different from the movie). Anyway, the point is, five days later -- let alone five months later! -- I had moved on.

(Though a rental DVD of Memento happens to be sitting atop my TV as we speak! I'm going to watch it again -- my third time -- this weekend.)

[David]

Why are we like this..?   and six months later still?

For me, this is the acceptance stage of the process.    BBM was a tramatic, painful experience.   Were talking basket case sobbing here.    Once I faced my own skeletons in my closet,  things got worse before they got better.   But along the way I found most of you over at IMDB.   And as the expression goes, there is company in misery.   

In absorbing all things BBM, I have learned to turn my pain into love.  Love for Jack and Ennis.    Maybe thats why I like Leslies "A Love born From Steel".   It is just more of our boys being happy, just the way they were up on BBM.   Just the way we all wish we could be.   

[Penthesilea]

But when we start to describe our reactions we sound eerily alike.

Yes, I've noticed this some times before. When I read other's reactions to it, I often think: that's like me. It is eerie or at least strange.

It is like falling in love. But I would never, ever say that to anyone in the outside world.

Neither would I. Nobody in real life knows how much it has affected me, how obsessed I am. My husband has an idea of it, because he knows how often I've seen it in theatre. But even he does not know the dimesion.

Glad to know another Memento-lover! And you're right, it has a different kind of appeal. After I saw it the first time, I did spend a day or two looking it up on the internet, reading reviews and analyses. I read the original short story on which it was based (it was written by the director's brother, published in Esquire, and is very different from the movie). Anyway, the point is, five days later -- let alone five months later! -- I had moved on.

(Though a rental DVD of Memento happens to be sitting atop my TV as we speak! I'm going to watch it again -- my third time -- this weekend.)

Yes, same with me. Memento was more intellectual challenging. I just did not understand everything at my first viewing and had to look it up online. Then I watched it again with the knowledge I read on the internet and (nearly) everything was clear. Then I was done with it.  I still enjoy watching it from time to time, I still like the movie - but when the movie is over, I don't think about it anymore.

[Aussie Chris]

Hey Katherine et al, well it's been a while but I couldn't resist posting in response to this excellent question, and I think I have a very simple explanation for the Brokeback-effect: the people who are moved by it are ready to heal.  Everyone has emotional baggage, but the worst thing we all do is settle for less than our hearts desire.  Or maybe there is one thing that is worse; we convince ourselves that we are undeserving.  We spend so much time lowering our expectations that we forget that we ever had any.  And in Ennis we see ourselves and the fruit of such an existence.

But as I said, it's not that we have issues to deal with, but that we are ready to deal with them - to be healed.  For me this was about letting go of the shame I had for falling for a straight guy a decade ago, building up a relationship in my head before one actually existed and then being too stubborn to let it go.  This is all just part of growing up to be sure, but so damaging was the fallout of this situation that I refused to let myself feel that sort of love again, and then there was the nice touch of a double helping of denial to make it all seem "ok".

Not being ready to heal is just like leading a thirsty horse to water, if the horse doesn't know that it's thirsty then it might not think to drink.  For viewers of Brokeback Mountain it's the same thing.  Someone may have the worst case of loneliness and regret in the world, but unless they are ready to face this, then all they will see is "just a movie" and nothing more.  For these people, I have nothing but compassion and understanding - I don't think they are "less" because of this, but I do think we are more.

[serious crayons]

Hey Chris, it's so great to see you! Our paths haven't crossed much lately, and I've missed you because I've always really liked your way of looking at things. You make a good point. I would bet many people on this site would acknowledge something in their lives -- a change they want to make, an event in the past they haven't fully reconciled, whatever -- that makes them connect with Brokeback.

Thanks for sharing your story of your long-ago ill-fated relationship. That must be hard to go through, with demographically limited choices and social prejudices making it all the worse. We all have unrequited loves, I suppose, but sexual-orientation mismatches must so complicate matters.

For me, it's about uncertainty in my current situation: I recently moved, my kids hate it here, my husband and I aren't getting along, everything's frustrating and chaotic. I don't usually relate to Alma, but sometimes I feel like her: sitting in pajamas drinking cold coffee, kids screaming in the background, husband off to ... well, in my husband's case, work. Other times I can relate to Ennis, feeling like I should make changes but afraid to upset the status quo. And other times Jack, ready for a better life but not finding someone willing to seek it.

On the other hand, I think another part of Brokeback-effect (good term, by the way!) for me is escape -- which I suppose means I'm looking for a way not to acknowledge and fix real life, but to stand it without facing it. Jack's and Ennis' world is heartbreaking, all right, but it's also such a comforting place -- someplace I can feel at home. When I watch the movie, it's almost (I know this sounds silly!) like I'm among friends.

[Amber]

  First of all - Hello!  I'm new to BetterMost.net, and new to Brokeback Mountain as well.  I saw it for the first time two weeks ago.

I haven't been stuck on this movie for 5 months but for these past two weeks it's all I can think about.  My husband thinks I'm slightly crazy although he never says so - he's a good guy.  In fact, I've convinced him that spending our honeymoon up in Calgary, Canmore and Kananaskis, Alberta is a great idea - where I can explore the filming sites.  I'm lucky.

I wish I knew why this movie grabbed a hold of me so much.  It's often the last thing I think about at night and the first thing I think about in the morning.  I don't think of Jack or Ennis as characters but as real people and friends.  The movie seems intensely real to me. 

I find myself insanely jealous of the love and passion between Jack and Ennis and I wish I had even a little bit of that passion for myself.  Don't get me wrong - I love my husband immensely ... but the passion of that reunion kiss is unmatched in my relationship!

Anyways I just wanted to say that I'm part of the club here, can't get Brokeback Mountain outta my mind!!  I'm sure you'll learn more about me as I post more often!

Looking forward to reading more posts!

[Aussie Chris]

I think there's also another quality that is common with Brokies, we all have as a core-value that a love like Jack and Ennis' is more than a real phenomenon, it is something that we have all been open to for as long as we can remember.  That knowledge that there is a person out there that makes your heart sing and completes you in ways that you couldn't even begin to imagine before you've met them.  As tragic the story of Jack and Ennis is, a Brokie see an affirmation of love that has the power to conquer fear, and yet doesn't because of fear.  All of us are text book demonstrations of the expression: when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks into you.

[Aussie Chris]

Oh, and I nearly forgot to say that you for the lovely compliments, just at the very moment when I needed it.  *MWAH*  My cup of love floweth over!

[David]

Aussie Chris,  anytime you need a BBM hug, you just sign on!   

And that goes for anybody here.  What a wonderful diverse group we are!

Just looking at the profiles and photos I am amazed how we cover every age group, from 15 yrs old to 76!   Gay, straight, bisexual, men and women, rich and poor.   And here we sit sometimes everynight chatting with eachother from across town or across the planet!    All because we have this common fixation.   
 Ann Proulx must be smiling.  Because I sure am.   

[silkncense]

I am amazed how we cover every age group, from 15 yrs old to 76!   Gay, straight, bisexual, men and women, rich and poor.

I am amazed too, David.  And having gone to SF to meet some of them I found that even differences in personalities didn't cancel the connection.  You could truly feel the goodness in the people gathered together.  Granted, the Jacks probably bonded better with each other & were admired by Ennis types (I've evolved - regretfully - into an Ennis type of listening long before talking), but everyone shared the love.

the love and passion between Jack and Ennis and I wish I had even a little bit of that passion for myself.

Msuamber - Or believed it could be found again once lost.  I recall a 'reunion' kiss that  incredibly did create stars.  But, being young, in my early 20's, I thought I would easily have that again & chose a career that he couldn't accept.  And eventually I let that career, that I absolutely loved, go for another person that never brought me a tiny portion of my previous joy.  I still (perhaps more so now) feel the weight of regret.  I wish you were right, Chris -

I think I have a very simple explanation for the Brokeback-effect: the people who are moved by it are ready to heal.

I guess I am trying but haven't figured it out yet.
 

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

You know......

I really don't have any insight into this. All I can say is, I still think about Jack and Ennis all the freakin' time. I can now entertain other thoughts but even then, subconsciously I'm thinking of our boys. And you know what, I totally relate about them feeling not like movie characters but close, real-life friends.

Whenever I remember at night, I'll even say "Goodnight, Jack. Goodnight, Ennis."   

[Aussie Chris]

Msuamber - Or believed it could be found again once lost.  I recall a 'reunion' kiss that  incredibly did create stars.  But, being young, in my early 20's, I thought I would easily have that again & chose a career that he couldn't accept.  And eventually I let that career, that I absolutely loved, go for another person that never brought me a tiny portion of my previous joy.  I still (perhaps more so now) feel the weight of regret.  I wish you were right, Chris -

He he, well "ready" to heal doesn't mean you know how to fix things, only recognition that you were standing them all this time.  Brokeback doesn't give you the answers, only questions, and it makes you look at your life in simple terms: what have you been standing rather than fixing?  And the most important question of all: what are you going to do about it?

[nakymaton]

I think I'm fairly unusual here, because obsessing is really the main way I deal with art that I love. Books, movies, music... if something touches me, I want to immerse myself in it, to experience more of it, to share the experience (even if only virtually) with people who are touched in the same way. I feel kind of bereft when I appreciate art from a distance. (But at the same time, every time I obsess about things, someone points out that I'm over-intellectualizing, why can't I just enjoy it. And, well, I don't have a good answer to that. The tendency to over-intellectualize is a character flaw of mine, I'm afraid.)

But BBM is still strange, in a way, because I feel more guilty about it than I do about most of my obsessions. Usually there's a lot of joy and beauty in my experience of art that I love. And there's certainly beauty in BBM, but I find that the joy is always tempered by sadness -- the "happy tussle" is seen through Aguirre's binoculars, our experience of the reunion kiss is broken by knowledge of Alma's pain, the sweetness of the Motel Siesta cuddle is broken by Ennis's reply about being stuck with what he has, the peace and happiness of the "prayer of thanks" is torn apart by Ennis's memory of seeing Earl's body. And I've got a rather bleak interpretation of a lot of things in the movie, too, to the point that I don't really imagine untempered joy existing in either man at any point in the relationship. And it worries me that I am so caught up with something that is so sad, especially in my personal interpretation. (My friends that aren't as obsessed as I am don't talk about the movie being slow, or unrealistic -- I've got a number of friends who cried buckets when they watched it, but didn't want to see it again, because it hurt too much to dwell on. It was just too sad to obsess about. And I don't know what it is about me that makes me want to dwell on someone else's pain. It kind of freaks me out.)

On the other hand, I think another part of Brokeback-effect (good term, by the way!) for me is escape -- which I suppose means I'm looking for a way not to acknowledge and fix real life, but to stand it without facing it. Jack's and Ennis' world is heartbreaking, all right, but it's also such a comforting place -- someplace I can feel at home. When I watch the movie, it's almost (I know this sounds silly!) like I'm among friends.

I prefer books/movies/music that I can escape into. I always have. I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, not if you can come back to the world surrounding you when you need to.

[Front-Ranger]

I went to a seminar in February called Web 2.0. Learned a little about how things are evolving on the Web. It was mostly technical stuff but there is a lot to be learned from a sociological viewpoint. Some of the people on this message board won't be surprised to learn that over half of the content on the Web right now is consumer-generated. Internet communities are being formed like ours every day. I like to think that ours is one of the most diverse, more cultured, hip, and attuned to the human condition. That starts to explain how addictive it is! Why are we like this? Well, this message board is fuel for our passions, and keeps them burning brightly. That's why we are like this! IMHO anyway.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Friends,

Well, I've been reading this very excellent thread for a while and I've been a little scared of jumping in ... It seems like the main question could lead to some *interesting* revelations.   
 

So, I'll start with a few simple observations... I love the film as a film and will never tire of watching it or picking it apart in discussions.  It's interesting to see how my interest in the movie and my participation in these boards have evolved... Participation in these boards has taken on a life of its own.  Spending time on Bettermost is definitely far superior to watching bad TV, etc. so in my true leisure time I often can't wait to log on here.  And, I would definitely agree that there's a lot of escapism involved here for me too.  I just think it's amazing fun to have this big group of people who understand all of our obscure references, Brokie-language and jokes (jokes that no one besides a Brokie would get or find funny).  Talking about BBM with people in my real life is annoying and stressful to me.  And, I don't have much patience for talking to BBM "novices" in the real world (I don't mean newbies here... I think it's great when new people join in here.  New members here clearly come here with a great deal of insight into the film).  I have too many emotions tied up with the film to be able to talk about it casually with people.  So it's nice to be able to assume that people here know what you're talking about and you don't need to constantly explain everything. 

On a more personal level...  I just moved here (well actually about a year ago) and besides people at work, I haven't had much time to meet many new people.  In an unfortunately Ennis-like way, I'm noticing that I'm becoming very circumspect about trying to make new friends or about letting conversations with new people go too far... for fear of having to come out to them.  This was all much easier in college and during grad school... dealing with this in the professional world is a whole different ballgame.  I'm also single... so this new loner quality of mine is not helping in that department either.  I never used to be like this... I've always had a large circle of friends (and I still do... only they all live far away now).  I don't know... I'm hoping this is a phase that will pass (I don't mean my Bettermost days... I mean my lack of interest in going out much). 

ps.  Yeah, Chris, it's great to see you around!  Where you been?

[wolf]

I'd be interested to see just how many of us, or what percentage, fall into the 'fan' demographic.  My guess would be very few, if any.  THAT in itself, amazes the heck out of me.  Adds weight to the epiphanic powers of BBM, if weight were needed.  Wolf is certainly well outside the demographic.  Star Trek amore notwithstanding.

Generally speaking, there are phenomenons which stubbornly (and magnificently) hover above our feeble attempts to describe them.  These magical, unknowable, mysterious things are created when remarkable forces align.  Depending on your view of quantum physics, these can be repeatable or unrepeatable events.  I don't think BBM is repeatable - yet unlike your typical unrepeatable quantum event, it IS observable.  So we can observe something that can't be repeated, but cannot describe the event.  Boy, are we in some strange place 

W

[Brown Eyes]

I'd be interested to see just how many of us, or what percentage, fall into the 'fan' demographic.  My guess would be very few, if any.  THAT in itself, amazes the heck out of me.  Adds weight to the epiphanic powers of BBM, if weight were needed.  Wolf is certainly well outside the demographic. 

What's the "fan demographic"?  I'm certainly no teeny-bopper, but is there some measure of a fan vs. a serious aficionado?  I think most people who have gravitated to BetterMost... or who have been given an invitation to join BetterMost are already on a special level of Brokeback appreciation.  And, the level of discussion here I think also reflects this. I'll certainly agree with you that Brokeback has special "epiphanic powers".  That's quite a phrase!
 

[wolf]

ah yes, the Fan Demographic.  a good question, Watson 

a knowledgeable friend recently described it as, broadly, 15 to 35 and working to middle class, with access to disposable income.   there are finer criteria for the various 'grades' of Fandom, of course, but for the purposes of this enquiry ...

serious afficionado.  hmmm .... do you mean Film Buff, or something else?  I'm a reformed Film Buff (again, Star Trek amore notwithstanding), so wonder if that does in fact, render Wolf a Fan  .

either way, I consider us our own breed.  in fact, we might well be aliens, responding to a well-disguised homing beacon.  only we can 'hear' the Signal 

w

[Penthesilea]

Why are we like this? Well, this message board is fuel for our passions, and keeps them burning brightly. That's why we are like this! IMHO anyway.

I think Front-Ranger has a very interesting theory here. Yes, BM (and other boards) is fuel to our passions. It's a kind of mutual enhancement: the board fuels our passion and we (with our passion) fuel this board.


I asked on another thread, what we/I would have done without this possibility of exchange with others.

I think I would have felt like a weirdo if I had the impression, I'm the only person in the world who was affected by this movie so much that I can't stop thinking about it.
But would this obsession have lasted three months? Or would I have given up after several weeks, moved on and would have forgotten about this movie?

My friend and only fellow Brokie I know in person can't speak English. So she has no access to message boards (no German boards). However, she is still as infected by Brokeback fever as I am. Tomorrow it will be exactly three months that we saw it first. And although we assured each other that our third viewing in theatre would be our last, it was her who suggested to go to theatre for a forth time (I didn't dare). Four times might seem not much for some of you, but you have to add our multiple viewings on DVD. We both own the DVD and still go to cinema to see BBM.

Bottom line is: although I think Front-Ranger's theory is partly right, it cannot explain the phenomenon altogether. It cannot explain why it is this movie for us. And why other viewers are not as affected by it as we are. I was never interested in researching information about other movies on internet to this extend and I never had any interest to join a message board about a movie.
And there was definetly no other movie (or book for that matter) for me where the characters felt so real.

[serious crayons]

I think I would have felt like a weirdo if I had the impression, I'm the only person in the world who was affected by this movie so much that I can't stop thinking about it.
But would this obsession have lasted three months? Or would I have given up after several weeks, moved on and would have forgotten about this movie?

Happy three-month anniversary, Penth!

I agree with your points: 1) I would have gone crazy if I didn't have access to this board (and before that, imdb) to indicate there are others in the world who feel not just kind of like I do, but exactly like I do 2) it's possible that, without the board, which has become like a whole 'nother obsession in itself -- I would have returned to normal after, say, two months rather than still obsessed after five 3) that still doesn't really explain why I am obsessed with a movie in the first place.

Characters real? I just finished posting on another thread that there is a dimension of reality in which Jack and Ennis go about their lives, outside of what happened to be captured on film. And though I don't really believe this, at the same time I really kind of do! Sometimes, for example, I get into discussions here about characters' motivations or intentions that I think may go beyond what even Annie, Diana and Larry, Ang, Heath or Jake intended to indicate. So it's not like I'm wondering, "What did the fillmmakers mean to show when Ennis did such and such?" I'm wondering, "What did Ennis mean when he did such and such?"

Now that is something I can't remember ever doing with any other movie or even book.

[ednbarby]

Now that is something I can't remember ever doing with any other movie or even book.

Me, neither.

(And I ain't jokin'.)

[Brown Eyes]

Well, since Ang Lee went so far as to thank Jack and Ennis during his Oscar speech, it seems like at least he has some of the same feelings that we do about these characters sort of having a presence beyond the scope of the film (if that makes any sense). 

I don't think it's too wierd to extrapolate about characters and their motivations and what they might do in different circumstances.  But, I'm fixating on the idea of out-takes and random production stills, etc. in a way that I never did for any other movie.  Because those extra little things (like the bizarre extra footage that found its way into the trailer of all things) really do make it seem like Jack and Ennis were busy doing things that Ang wouldn't let us see!

[wolf]

those extra little things (like the bizarre extra footage that found its way into the trailer of all things) really do make it seem like Jack and Ennis were busy doing things that Ang wouldn't let us see!

 

W

[serious crayons]

I don't think it's too wierd to extrapolate about characters and their motivations and what they might do in different circumstances.

No. After all, authors and filmmakers and actors do that all the time when they try to figure out what a particular character would be likely to do under particular circumstances, and then write or film or act accordingly. But what this feels like is not "What WOULD Ennis do?" but "What DID Ennis do?" Or, more often, "What was he thinking when he did or said something or other?" as if he (and all the other characters) had not only other activities but whole interior lives beyond the reach of film.

If it's not weird generally, it sure is unusual for me.

But then, these characters seem to have affected everybody involved in an unusual way, even Annie Proulx!

[David In Indy]

As a gay man (does it matter? I don't know why I felt I needed to say that), this film impacted me more than any other film I have ever watched. I am reeling.

I identify so closely with Ennis I feel like I've met my doppelganger. It reached into my heart and squeezed until it burst. I stuff feelings just like Ennis does. It's like Annie Proulx snuck into my head while I was sleeping and willed Ennis into existence.

There's more - a lot more - but I'm at work, so I'll need to elaborate a little later.

I agree with you Gregg. It has reached deep into  my heart too. I can  just relate to it so much. I think about it all the time. God... I am watching it right now.... again!

[belbbmfan]

It cannot explain why it is this movie for us. And why other viewers are not as affected by it as we are. I was never interested in researching information about other movies on internet to this extend and I never had any interest to join a message board about a movie.
And there was definetly no other movie (or book for that matter) for me where the characters felt so real.

and

No. After all, authors and filmmakers and actors do that all the time when they try to figure out what a particular character would be likely to do under particular circumstances, and then write or film or act accordingly. But what this feels like is not "What WOULD Ennis do?" but "What DID Ennis do?" Or, more often, "What was he thinking when he did or said something or other?" as if he (and all the other characters) had not only other activities but whole interior lives beyond the reach of film.

If it's not weird generally, it sure is unusual for me.

But then, these characters seem to have affected everybody involved in an unusual way, even Annie Proulx!

Whaw. I've just finished reading some of the posts here and I'm speechless. Literally, I wish I could be so eloquent about 'why we are like this'. So I'll use someone else's words instead. I read an interesting article today on ccn about how the romance seems to have gone in Hollywood. In it the director of Love Story said:""When you feel two people in love, you share that emotion, that's why you will keep coming back to see it," "It's an emotion we're all acquainted with. We're not acquainted with a ship about to sink and everybody running to lifeboats.(my note: he's referring to Titanic) We're all into feeling for people, and I think that's what gets us."



Here's the link to the article:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/06/20/film.romance.reut/index.html

[dly64]

All I know is that this film has completely consumed me. It is hard to focus on anything else!

Part of it for me is that this story rings true. It does not use cliches. It is not mean spirited. It shows all aspects of a relationship: passion, love, disappointment, pain, etc. Annie Proulx also made these characters in her story so alive and Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana were able to translate that into an incredible screenplay. Jack and Ennis seem real to me. Each time I watch BBM (which has been too many times to count) I always find myself routing for them, even though I already know the tragic ending.

This story never get stale. I never get bored watching it.

Lastly, I have to admit the obvious, the screen chemistry between Jake and Heath is great! 

[Ellemeno]

I am only three posts into reading this thread, but want to put in my initial two cents.  I first heard about BBM back in October, by following one of my favorite posters at IMDb through his posting history, to some IMDb forum called "Brokeback Mountain."  Weird name.  I started reading his posts, then all posts.  I had never heard of (I confess) Ang Lee.  I had barely heard of (and discounted as shallow, too-young) Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal.  Randy Quaid was really the only person in the cast or crew that I was familiar with.  And Larry McMurtry had done Lonesome Dove, which I adored (and if you're looking to cast your BBM-oriented net wider, read, then watch Lonesome Dove.  Not only is it excellent and about two long term cowboy buddies who go through a range of emotions between each other, but it's satisfyingly lengthy, no short story.)  I had vaguely heard of Annie Proulx.

Just reading the IMDb board got me hooked, two months before the movie came out.  I downloaded the short story, put it in my Palm, and wound up reading and rereading it continuously, every moment I could.  Stayed awake late rereading, couldn't stop.  Started posting.   More soon.

[dly64]

Just reading the IMDb board got me hooked, two months before the movie came out.  I downloaded the short story, put it in my Palm, and wound up reading and rereading it continuously, every moment I could.  Stayed awake late rereading, couldn't stop.  Started posting. 

I love the story, too. It is so beautifully written. I think it really enhances the story and clarifies some ambiguous points.

I started out loving this film, but now am at the point of obsession.  I began reading the IMDb boards and really got into the discussion/ debate. It never gets old! My family and friends think I am mental. I guess I am ... but who cares? At least I am having a good time!

[forsythia_5]

i think one thing we have in common......world wide, is that we share the need for love.  it's human. and i think no matter who you are, or where you're from......we all want love.  we need to love.  we need to be loved.
brokeback.......the ultimate love story..........love and the monkeywrenches life throws at us to hinder us from experiencing free love.  all the things that get in the way.  i think we can all relate somehow.  wheather it's romantic love, love towards your children, or love that's been bruised and tested.........the movie speaks to us all.

[serious crayons]

So true, Forsythia, thanks for posting it. Welcome to BetterMost and the Open Forum! Glad to have you and your nice thoughts here. 

[ednbarby]

i think one thing we have in common......world wide, is that we share the need for love.  it's human. and i think no matter who you are, or where you're from......we all want love.  we need to love.  we need to be loved.
brokeback.......the ultimate love story..........love and the monkeywrenches life throws at us to hinder us from experiencing free love.  all the things that get in the way.  i think we can all relate somehow.  wheather it's romantic love, love towards your children, or love that's been bruised and tested.........the movie speaks to us all.

That's lovely, Forsythia.  And I agree.  I wonder, though - do the people it doesn't speak to not need love like we do, or do they just not know they do?

And Diane, whadayamean Ennis and Jack seem real?

[fontaine]

"Why do we care so much?  Who are we?"

The one thing we all seem to share (or at least, to have shared at some point) is this huge, unexplainable, consuming passion for one particular movie (and/or short story). But why?!?!??

That's what I'm trying to figure out in my doctoral program! As I explained in my introduction post, I didn't have this same intense reaction to BBM as most other folks here, but I DID have it to another movie 9 years ago. That passion led to my program and my research.

It's interesting that you're looking at what Brokeback fans have in common while I'm focusing a little more on what this and that other movie have in common that elicits such similar reactions.

I don't want to bore you with an explanation of what I've come up with so far, but will be happy to share that if you (or others) are interested.

[fontaine]

I think it is because Brokeback Mountain is one of those movie that has a mirror effect (I don't know if that's correct). What I mean is that we all find ourselves represented in Ennis or Jack, or both and in their tribulations, fears, doubts, pain, happiness and unhappiness. It doesn't matter if we don't share their sexual orientation. At least in my case, I haven't seen a movie that depicts a love story so close to real life, as this one. Love is not about falling for a perfect person and living happily ever after, as it is shown in many Hollywood movies. Love is imperfect and hard to deal with. It's a struggle, as Jake Gyllenhaal puts it, and that's what Brokeback Mountain is about, among other things of course.

You're closer than you probably think! Within the last 10 or so years, neuroscientists have discovered "mirror neurons." These neurons not only fire when we perform a certain action but also when we WATCH someone else performing it! I would bet money on the idea that a fictional character has to be experienced as real (versimmilutude) in order for mirror neurons to kick in.

[serious crayons]

Interesting point, fontaine. And welcome to BetterMost and the OF! I am glad to have someone among us who keeps abreast on the latest findings in neuroscience. Seriously, that could be very helpful in these discussions.

 

[fontaine]

I'd be interested to see just how many of us, or what percentage, fall into the 'fan' demographic.  My guess would be very few, if any.  THAT in itself, amazes the heck out of me.  Adds weight to the epiphanic powers of BBM, if weight were needed.  Wolf is certainly well outside the demographic.  Star Trek amore notwithstanding.

Generally speaking, there are phenomenons which stubbornly (and magnificently) hover above our feeble attempts to describe them.  These magical, unknowable, mysterious things are created when remarkable forces align.  Depending on your view of quantum physics, these can be repeatable or unrepeatable events.  I don't think BBM is repeatable - yet unlike your typical unrepeatable quantum event, it IS observable.  So we can observe something that can't be repeated, but cannot describe the event.  Boy, are we in some strange place 

W

I have to disagree with your conclusion that Brokeback is unique in evoking the kind and level of viewer reactions it has. I'm writing a dissertation on the subject of how and why narrative has the potential impact it does and what characteristics it needs to have to create that kind of response. Personally, I had the same type of reaction to another movie almost 10 years ago and the reactions others described back then were amazingly similar to those you'll find here.

What I'll be looking at is the neurological response people have to various types of narratives and trying to match that up with characteristics of the narrative and of the viewer. I've no doubt that other narratives have affected people similarly, I'm just not sure which or where to find people who've described their reaction.

You see, I've been "obsessed" by a film for almost 10 years and it motivated me to follow the path I have. So, narratives can be life-changing. I'm trying to figure out how and why. Seeing Brokeback has only convinced me more that the experience I had was not a one-shot thing!

[fontaine]

Interesting point, fontaine. And welcome to BetterMost and the OF! I am glad to have someone among us who keeps abreast on the latest findings in neuroscience. Seriously, that could be very helpful in these discussions.

 

Thanks for that, latjoreme! Sometimes I worry that I'll come across as snooty or something when in fact, what I'm up to is feeding my obsession! Only in my case, it's been going on for so long that I've learned some things in the process of chasing down an answer to the questions of "why" and "how!"

The part that gets both fuzzy and also interesting is the relationship of the physical and the spirit. I have no question, intuitively, that it exists but discovering it is another story.

My mentor says that what I'm trying to do is "break the learning code" which is an interesting way to think of it. What is necessary and how does it work when a person's attitude and behavior shift as the result of a narrative? And how can we use that understanding to make education (and entertainment) more poignant and useful for people? Understand that, and you understand the basis of learning--the significant kind, anyway!

[dly64]

Diane, whadayamean Ennis and Jack seem real?

Okay, okay ... they are real to all of us "Brokies".

I have said this before, but am going to reiterate it anyway. This film has a realism that I have rarely experienced. The whole idea of societal mores dictating a person's future is heartbreaking. Even though I am a straight female, there have been two events in my own life that I would like to share:

My great uncle was homosexual and was living in a small rural town located in a midwestern Bible belt state. The expectation was that he was to get married, have a family. He did ... and all it did was cause pain for everyone. He was caught several times with other men. Eventually, he was arrested because he was caught having sex with a man in a public place. To make a long story short, he ended up getting murdered. No one was ever charged, but apparently everyone knew who did it. I guess the public seemed to think it was justifiable homicide.

The second event is just now unfolding ... my nephew. I am sure he is gay. My brother has made it clear about his disdain for homosexuals. When I told my brother that I loved BBM, he said he refused to watch a story about "two faggots". I absolutely cringed. I hurt for my nephew because I don't know that he will ever become comfortable acknowledging his sexual orientation. I know he will fear rejection. My heart is heavy about this.

I think, for me, BBM does not provide any easy answers. It provokes thought and dialogue. It shows the pain that can be inflicted by keeping a secret, by not being true to one's self. It doesn't say that everything will be okay. I think it provides more questions than answers. Maybe that's why I just can't get this film out from under my skin.

[serious crayons]

To make a long story short, he ended up getting murdered. No one was ever charged, but apparently everyone knew who did it. I guess the public seemed to think it was justifiable homicide.

The second event is just now unfolding ... my nephew. I am sure he is gay. My brother has made it clear about his disdain for homosexuals. When I told my brother that I loved BBM, he said he refused to watch a story about "two faggots". I absolutely cringed.

Dly, I am so sorry to hear about both of these family tragedies. Two more reminders that the lessons of Brokeback are still extremely relevant today (if we needed any reminders, that is, which most of us don't). Anyway, very sad stories. I am really sorry, and hope your nephew can find the support he needs from other caring adults, and that your brother will find a way to be more open-minded when it hits that close to home.

Just show there is some hope, I must add a quick OT aside about a happy story of a gay relative in my family. My aunt has lived with another woman for as long as I've been alive. For years, nobody in the family ever discussed whether they are gay, but it became increasingly clear to me over the years and now it's sort of almost openly obliquely referred to. In any case, everyone in the family has always been as welcoming to them as any married couple. Anyway, when my aunt and her roommate retired some years ago, they moved together to the roommate's hometown, a tiny farm town in Iowa. Not long after moving there -- two women living together in a big Victorian mansion -- my aunt decided to run for mayor. And she won, running against the incumbent, and went on to serve several successful terms! Of course, my aunt is very smart and funny and personable. But I was also always impressed that the townsfolk were able to set aside whatever prejudices they might have held (I realize two women living together are not as conspicuous as two men, but still) and vote her in as their leader.

I'm writing a dissertation on the subject of how and why narrative has the potential impact it does and what characteristics it needs to have to create that kind of response. Personally, I had the same type of reaction to another movie almost 10 years ago and the reactions others described back then were amazingly similar to those you'll find here.

What I'll be looking at is the neurological response people have to various types of narratives and trying to match that up with characteristics of the narrative and of the viewer. I've no doubt that other narratives have affected people similarly, I'm just not sure which or where to find people who've described their reaction.

Wow fontaine, you really DO have an interesting perspective. I will be looking forward to seeing more of your insights in the days and weeks to come. BTW, now I'm curious. You don't have to say if you don't want to, but what was the other movie 10 years ago?

[dly64]

Just show there is some hope, I must add a quick OT aside about a happy story of a gay relative in my family. My aunt has lived with another woman for as long as I've been alive. For years, nobody in the family ever discussed whether they are gay, but it became increasingly clear to me over the years and now it's sort of almost openly obliquely referred to. In any case, everyone in the family has always been as welcoming to them as any married couple. Anyway, when my aunt and her roommate retired some years ago, they moved together to the roommate's hometown, a tiny farm town in Iowa. Not long after moving there -- two women living together in a big Victorian mansion -- my aunt decided to run for mayor. And she won, running against the incumbent, and went on to serve several successful terms! Of course, my aunt is very smart and funny and personable. But I was also always impressed that the townsfolk were able to set aside whatever prejudices they might have held (I realize two women living together are not as conspicuous as two men, but still) and vote her in as their leader.

It is nice to see the acceptance of two women in such a way. It shows that we have come far in some areas ... other areas we are still in the dark ages. I wish more people would understand that homosexuality is not a disease and it is not a "mortal sin". I always figure that those who are the most outspoken really are hiding something of consequence in their lives. Just a theory ....

[fontaine]

It is nice to see the acceptance of two women in such a way. It shows that we have come far in some areas ... other areas we are still in the dark ages. I wish more people would understand that homosexuality is not a disease and it is not a "mortal sin". I always figure that those who are the most outspoken really are hiding something of consequence in their lives. Just a theory ....

I agree, dly64, that these people are hiding something from themselves, but I don't think it's necessarily what you're thinking it is. I doubt that sexual orientation is as straightforward as most people think it is. I expect there are many shades of gray between being "completely" heterosexual and "completely" homosexual. In fact, "completely" be even be a myth.

I just finished reading about a PhD biologist who has professionally evolved toward the mind/body relationship and has a theory that behavior is more a function of internal messages and environmental influences than it is of genes. These influences turn genes on and off. That makes sense given much of the other research I've been doing, but I have to look into it more. But, assuming he's onto something, even if someone had a heterosexual gene or a homosexual one, how he/she deals with it internally coupled with external, environmental/social influences, could set it in either an on or off state. Genes, I've long decided are our "default" settings but are not necessarily deterministic.

I think there are two kinds of sexual bigots: ones who are terrified that they might have a sexual orientation they've been taught to loathe, and ones without sexual ambiguity who are simply too narrow-minded, ignorant, and frightened to accept anything that does not echo their own belief systems. They are threatened by anything they think challenges their belief systems and will go to incredible lengths to advance and preserve them.

I suspect that deep down these people know they are full of it, and that makes them overly defensive. They not only wear their belief systems as a badge but try to foist them off on everyone else. The words tolerance and diversity are threatening to them.

It takes emotional courage to examine the possibility that maybe your beliefs aren't valid or that while they may be valid for you, they aren't necessarily for others. These are people whose belief systems rule their lives--lives which are lived in fear. Enter the Karl Roves of the world to take full advantage of those fears!

[fontaine]

Wow fontaine, you really DO have an interesting perspective. I will be looking forward to seeing more of your insights in the days and weeks to come. BTW, now I'm curious. You don't have to say if you don't want to, but what was the other movie 10 years ago?

It was (don't laugh) Titanic. When you think objectively about it, the similarities between it and Brokeback are striking from the theme of impossible love, to pristine, passionate filmmaking, and engaging characters who feel real and whom we come to care deeply for. Also, both movies are tragedies along the Romeo and Juliet line.

For a long time I thought I had a huge crush on Leonardo DiCaprio and finally realized it wasn't him, it was Jack Dawson who had stolen my aging heart. Who wouldn't want a partner like Jack--handsome, wise, talented, and devoted? And then there was the tragedy of an environment that worked against these characters ability to be together. I'm beginning to think that tragedy may be a key in why certain narratives have the power to move us to such depths.

I suspect that a lot of the anti-Titanic sentiment comes from it having become so popular, especially with young girls. What discriminating and sophisticated adult wants to be lumped in w/ a bunch of Leo-worshipping 13-year old girls? Me! 

[serious crayons]

Genes, I've long decided are our "default" settings but are not necessarily deterministic.

Good way to put it! I have an amateur's interest in the heredity vs. environment debate (and, as a writer, have written about it in a very laymanish way), and have looked at studies of twins reared apart and adopted kids, both of which aim to study separately the influences of nature vs. nurture. The general concensus at this point seems to be that human behavior is roughly half genetic, half environmental (the environmental part, interestingly, is not strongly correlated to parenting or family environment -- but that's a whole 'nother debate).

I think there are two kinds of sexual bigots: ones who are terrified that they might have a sexual orientation they've been taught to loathe, and ones without sexual ambiguity who are simply too narrow-minded, ignorant, and frightened to accept anything that does not echo their own belief systems.

This makes sense to me. After all, most racists don't fear they have black ancestors (though, of course, a few do fear this). It's possible to be narrow-minded and bigoted in an impersonal way. But I'm sure some homophobes fall into the "protesting too much" category.

For a long time I thought I had a huge crush on Leonardo DiCaprio and finally realized it wasn't him, it was Jack Dawson who had stolen my aging heart.

I know what you mean. I post regularly on the Heath Heath Heath thread and swoon over the pictures, but it's just for fun and camaraderie. It's really Ennis I care about, not Heath, and they're like two different people (the fact that they don't even LOOK much alike adds to that sense).

[fontaine]

Nor do Heath and Ennis sound alike! I was shocked when I watched the extras on the DVD to see how very different they are! It helped convince me how fine an actor Heath Ledger really is to have been able to make that kind and level of transformation. It may even support my theory that sexuality exists on a continuum. We may have certain "default" settings but a motivation like acting and portraying a different character may help an actor actually experience things he/she wouldn't while on their default setting.

Take the example of men (or women) in prison. Many straight ones participate in homosexual acts. You mean to tell me that ALL of these acts are simply physical w/ absolutely no emotional element? I find that hard to believe knowing how human beings function. It may be true for emotionally-stunted prisoners such as sociopaths but those can't feel much if any emotion for heterosexual partners, either.

I suspect that most homophobia is more the expression of the desire to return to a simpler, if mythical past where things were more black and white. I don't expect, however, that that resembles reality very much.

If you're interested in the nature/nurture, mind/body question, one of my instructors sent me a book (she's a sweetie and has done this several times) entitled "Phantoms in the Brain: Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind" by Dr. V.S. Ramachandran, a noted neuroscientist. In it he talks a lot about "phantom limbs" and then gets into the mind/body relationship.To give you a preview of this guy's sense of humor, take the following paragraph that talks about quantitative vs. qualitative research.

"A tension exists in neurology between those who believe that the most valuable lessons about the brain can be learned from statistical analyses involving large numbers of patiens and those who believe that doing the right kind of experiements on the right patients--even a single patient--can yeild much more useful information. This is really a silly debate since its resolution is obvious: It's a good idea to begin with experiements on single cases and then to confirm the findings through studies of additional patients. By way of analogy, imagine that I cart a pig into your living room and tel you that it can talk. You might say, "Oh, really? Show me." I then wave my wand and the pig starts talking. You might respond, "My God! That's amazing!" You are not likely to say, "Ah, but that's just one pig. Show me a few more and then I might believe you." Yet this is precisely the attitude of many people in my field.

That paragraph cracked me up!

Uh, oh, I just read some more in the book that suggests a neurological basis of homophobia! Want to hear it?

[serious crayons]

Uh, oh, I just read some more in the book that suggests a neurological basis of homophobia! Want to hear it?

Um ... sure, I guess so!

Nor do Heath and Ennis sound alike! I was shocked when I watched the extras on the DVD to see how very different they are! It helped convince me how fine an actor Heath Ledger really is to have been able to make that kind and level of transformation.

Yes, he is an amazing actor, but get this -- I can't bring myself to watch the DVD extras for that very reason. Too confusing. For me, seeing Heath or the other actors in "real life" triggers disturbing thoughts that maybe Ennis and Jack aren't, well, real people.

I suspect that most homophobia is more the expression of the desire to return to a simpler, if mythical past where things were more black and white. I don't expect, however, that that resembles reality very much.

Good point. I think a lot of racism is the same way. It's a nostalgic look back to the '50s, when everybody was so repressed and/or oppressed that white middle-class straight people could almost forget that anybody else existed.

[YaadPyar]

I don't know why it took me so long to see this thread...  But it's the essential question - how has our experience of this movie connected us into a community that is so deeply feeling and supportive and in need of support. 

And I continue to not have an answer.  I like the idea that we're in need of love, but as was stated, who isn't in need of that.  I have read so many excellent answers and I would say yes and right and true to all of them, but they are not complete in their answers for me.  Not that I know the complete answer.

We are as different as we are similar.  For every way in which we are alike, you can see how we are not, and find 10,000 others just like us who were not deeply touched by this movie anyway.

So - no answers here, but enjoying reaching deeper still into the question, looking for answers at this point much more about myself and really much less about BBM.

[dly64]

Take the example of men (or women) in prison. Many straight ones participate in homosexual acts. You mean to tell me that ALL of these acts are simply physical w/ absolutely no emotional element? I find that hard to believe knowing how human beings function. It may be true for emotionally-stunted prisoners such as sociopaths but those can't feel much if any emotion for heterosexual partners, either.

I suspect that most homophobia is more the expression of the desire to return to a simpler, if mythical past where things were more black and white. I don't expect, however, that that resembles reality very much.

It is interesting that you bring up straight men and women participating in homosexual acts in prison. IMO, I doubt that there is any emotional attachment. Prison is an environment where it is the survival of the fittest. I guess I see it more as an issue of power and control than one of emotional or physical fulfillment.

I see homophobia as a fear of  examining one's own life. This does not mean the individual is homosexual (although s/he might be).  It is just that any prejudice has more to do with a person's own insecurity. For instance, a person who spouts off Bible verses about the damnation of homosexuals may be trying to convince him/ herself  that homosexuality is wrong. I find that those who protest too loudly have something they are trying to hide. For example, the loudest critics of President Clinton's indiscretions were having their own affairs. Another example: My dad grew up Amish and there was a guy who kept complaining to my grandpa that my aunt's (dad's sisters') skirts were too short. Coming to find out, he was molesting his own daughters. I could go on and on.

As for the nature/ nuture debate about homosexuality .... that could go on for decades. And, since we are humans, it is hard to separate what is inborn and what is environmental. It still hasn't been determined how one's personality is developed. I don't expect we will have any easy answers ... at least not in my lifetime!

[fontaine]

"I find that those who protest too loudly have something they are trying to hide. For example, the loudest critics of President Clinton's indiscretions were having their own affairs. Another example: My dad grew up Amish and there was a guy who kept complaining to my grandpa that my aunt's (dad's sisters') skirts were too short. Coming to find out, he was molesting his own daughters. I could go on and on."

Aren't those simply examples of hypocracy? Are you saying that when people loudly thump their causes its largely because they're hypocrites? I don't know but it certainly sounds very plausible. If these people focus on what others do and don't say and do, then they avoid having to look at themselves. Was that your point, dly64?

[twistedude]

Since I love Brokeback, and am totally indifferent to Titanic, I---oy.

My shrink says it's because I just had to auction off my huge baseball card collection, and needed something to fill the hole in my life....I suppose it's possible, but I think she's just looking for an excuse..."I don't love you as if you were the salt-rose, topaz..."

[dly64]

Aren't those simply examples of hypocracy? Are you saying that when people loudly thump their causes its largely because they're hypocrites? I don't know but it certainly sounds very plausible. If these people focus on what others do and don't say and do, then they avoid having to look at themselves. Was that your point, dly64?

Absolutely. Those who are open to discussion and debate about certain topics are more comfortable with their inner dialogue. They are not trying to prove something to themselves or anyone else. They are open to exploring all sides of an issue. I always say that a person who protests/ criticises others too loudly has something they are avoiding or trying to hide (from themselves and others).

[fontaine]

Absolutely. Those who are open to discussion and debate about certain topics are more comfortable with their inner dialogue. They are not trying to prove something to themselves or anyone else. They are open to exploring all sides of an issue. I always say that a person who protests/ criticises others too loudly has something they are avoiding or trying to hide (from themselves and others).

How do you think people end up one way or the other? In Brokeback, Ennis was a closed person per his, "I ain't no queer" speech to Jack coupled with his continuing choices. In his case, it seems he'd been traumatized by being taken as a child to see the mutilated corpse of a dead gay man for starters. While that provides a logical explanation for Ennis, I doubt it's the only way that people end up either open or close-minded. What do you think?

[serious crayons]

How do you think people end up one way or the other? In Brokeback, Ennis was a closed person per his, "I ain't no queer" speech to Jack coupled with his continuing choices. In his case, it seems he'd been traumatized by being taken as a child to see the mutilated corpse of a dead gay man for starters. While that provides a logical explanation for Ennis, I doubt it's the only way that people end up either open or close-minded. What do you think?

Actually, I think Ennis is something of an example of the protest-too-much type -- though not a vocal gay-basher of the kind we've been discussing -- because he'd grown up constantly having to hide his own feelings. The Earl experience is not so much the cause of his trauma as the tip of the iceberg. Believing his dad capable of torturing a man to death for being gay, knowing that his dad's view represented the whole community's prevailing sentiment, and meanwhile realizing that he himself was attracted to men, would make for many nightmarish years. Especially since he seems to have respected his dad otherwise, and would feel pressured to remember him even more respectfully after his death.

[dly64]

Actually, I think Ennis is something of an example of the protest-too-much type -- though not a vocal gay-basher of the kind we've been discussing -- because he'd grown up constantly having to hide his own feelings. The Earl experience is not so much the cause of his trauma as the tip of the iceberg. Believing his dad capable of torturing a man to death for being gay, knowing that his dad's view represented the whole community's prevailing sentiment, and meanwhile realizing that he himself was attracted to men, would make for many nightmarish years. Especially since he seems to have respected his dad otherwise, and would feel pressured to remember him even more respectfully after his death.

I agree, latjoreme. Ennis tried to live a straight life. He tried proving to himself and everyone else that he was a hetero. Didn't work so great because he couldn't give himself to anyone else but Jack. Could this be, at least in part, why Ennis was so explosive? It was a way to avoid what he was actually feeling (Just an idea!) 

[Rayn]

"Why do we care so much?  Who are we?"

The one thing we all seem to share (or at least, to have shared at some point) is this huge, unexplainable, consuming passion for one particular movie (and/or short story). But why?!?!??

Well, for me, and I know from reading posts here, for other people too, Brokeback Mt. was a story that contained "pieces of our lives", actual events and moments, situations and feelings that happened to viewers. We identified with it.  I felt when I first saw it that both Ennis and Jack "were in me"!  I knew their joys and their suffering.  I also happen to love the mountains and horses, but I don't quality as a cowboy even if I can ride well. 

I've written about this in a couple other posts… the most intense part of the story that I had actually lived was when Ennis finds Jacks shirt in Jack's bedroom closet.  I lost a loved one long ago and it was very painful, the longing, the missing him after he was gone was so intense that I began going to our closet and fingering his shirts, holding  sweaters.  I'd put one that actually had Joe’s scent on it to my face and inhale, just like Ennis did in the movie!

Well, I don't need to say much about the impact that scene had on me.  I thought I was gonna fall apart. I’m ok now, but in fact, I couldn’t watch the movie for long while after the first time. It was too painful. 

I believe that what Ennis and I did with clothing must be a more common experience than people imagine.  It may even have happened to Annie too or someone she knew.  I lost Joe nearly 20 years ago, but the grief of that loss came back when I saw Brokeback, and I related to their joy as well, of course. 

It's a story of love between two men and we all understand love or want to.  And it's one of the first movies that has dealt so well and so realistically with men in love.  That's part of why we are the way we are... it's a first in many ways and it is so very real to so many of us.

Rayn

[Lynne]

I want to revive this thread because of a late-night coffee conversation after the Fox Theatre viewing in Atlanta.  I guess it might warrant it's own thread, but I think there are a lot of good ideas here that we can use as building blocks.

We were talking about one of our favorite subjects - why are we moved to obsession by BBM when other people (especially friends usually intelligent, sensitive and all the rest) were singularly unmoved.  [No time needs to be spent on the 'just don't get it crowd'.]  These are our bosom mates who left us with 'a very good movie, but I still don't see why you needed to see it 19 or 44 or however many times...are you sure you're alright?'

I'm talking about the people we know and love who we fully expected would understand it at our level and thereby further bond through this singular life-altering experience.  Rather we were left strangely empty and disappointed at their very lack of understanding, which only compounded the pain and alienation we were already feeling based on the movie itself.

I think Aussie Chris' ealier post takes my idea of some people being 'emotionally ready' or 'open' to the message while others just aren't and expands on it beautilfully:

Hey Katherine et al, well it's been a while but I couldn't resist posting in response to this excellent question, and I think I have a very simple explanation for the Brokeback-effect: the people who are moved by it are ready to heal.  Everyone has emotional baggage, but the worst thing we all do is settle for less than our hearts desire.  Or maybe there is one thing that is worse; we convince ourselves that we are undeserving.  We spend so much time lowering our expectations that we forget that we ever had any.  And in Ennis we see ourselves and the fruit of such an existence.

But as I said, it's not that we have issues to deal with, but that we are ready to deal with them - to be healed.  For me this was about letting go of the shame I had for falling for a straight guy a decade ago, building up a relationship in my head before one actually existed and then being too stubborn to let it go.  This is all just part of growing up to be sure, but so damaging was the fallout of this situation that I refused to let myself feel that sort of love again, and then there was the nice touch of a double helping of denial to make it all seem "ok".

Not being ready to heal is just like leading a thirsty horse to water, if the horse doesn't know that it's thirsty then it might not think to drink.  For viewers of Brokeback Mountain it's the same thing.  Someone may have the worst case of loneliness and regret in the world, but unless they are ready to face this, then all they will see is "just a movie" and nothing more.  For these people, I have nothing but compassion and understanding - I don't think they are "less" because of this, but I do think we are more.

I think that is the best-stated explanation I've read - at least it comes closest to describing my personal experience.  So given these interpretations, we posed a couple of questions over that coffee in Atlanta.  The one I want to discuss here specifically is this:

Assume all things being equal (Jake + Heath + Ang, etc.. came together to make the exact same movie) 5 years ago or 10 years ago or 5 years from now or 10 years from now, how would your perception and experience been similar or different?

I'm just tossing this out...I've been thinking about it off and on all week; for me, at least the answers are probably complex, but I'm interesting in what others thing while I'm working up  reply.

-Lynne

[ednbarby]

Good question, Lynne.  It's hard for me to speak to how I'd perceive it if it didn't come out until 5 or 10 years from now because its having come out when it did and affecting me like it did colors everything in my life, especially the way I look at movies.  You know?  It's kind of a chicken and egg proposition for me.

But I can speak to how I'd have perceived it 10 (or more) years ago.  I'm fairly certain I wouldn't have been ready in the sense Chris described - ready to face my issues.  I think I'd have been like that horse at the water's edge that doesn't even realize he's thirsty.  And on a different level, 10 or more years ago I had seen that many fewer movies and would have had that much less of a basis for comparison.  The more movies you see, the more you hunger for something original.  And the finer your taste becomes, I think.  10 or more years ago, I was only just discovering foreign films and independent films were just coming into the fold (at least as far as I was concerned).  I always liked movies that made me think and that changed me in some way, so I was always partway there.  But I don't think I'd have even fully appreciated how artistically advanced it is back then.

When I look at all the living I've done in the last ten years - the rough spots in my marriage and extended family relationships and career, having a child and how that changed everything infinitely more than I could have possibly prepared myself for, surviving a severe case of post-partum depression (and I don't use the word "surviving" facetiously - I almost didn't make it), wading through the widening water in my marriage since our son came - it's no wonder I must have reached a point where I was ready to deal with it all.

Another point Chris brought up that strikes me - that someone could be filled with loneliness and regret and yet still see this as "just a movie" - that fits a friend of mine to a tee - a friend to whom I lent one of my copies of the movie months ago, and she still can't bring herself to watch it.  Not because she has any issues that she's aware of with homosexuality, but because she says she's seen how it's affected me and she's afraid it'll level her.  She's someone who generally goes out of her way to watch only movies she knows will probably have a happy ending - Hollywood stuff.  Yet every now and again she'll surprise me and tell me she's seen a movie I thought she'd have never chosen and that she enjoyed it, "even though it made her cry."  I've told her if she really doesn't think she'll ever watch it, she can give it back - I don't mean to pressure her to watch something she's not interested in.  But she doesn't want to let it go.  She'll say, "Oh, I'll watch it.  Eventually."  One day recently she said to me, "You know, I almost watched your movie last night."  I'm glad she's waiting until she's ready.

[henrypie]

5 or 10 years ago, I think I would have been almost as vulnerable to the movie as I was in January.  It hit me on a sore spot that, maybe at least in part because of the movie, or maybe for other reasons, has healed to the point that I don't think, six months later, it would have caused a reaction of such magnitude.  How do I put this: I have intermittent bouts of cataclysmic emotional vulnerability.  (I'm not talkin menstrual.)  When I was younger I was more of a general raw nerve and was much better at dealing with that; now I'm in a relationship, I'm an "adult," I'm a professional; it's no longer my primary job to explore my own feelings, so I get rusty at doing so, while my feelings go no less in need of exploration.  That said, I'm still probably above average for feelings-exploration.  As are we all, I suspect.

I've never had a fish taco.

[dly64]

IAssume all things being equal (Jake + Heath + Ang, etc.. came together to make the exact same movie) 5 years ago or 10 years ago or 5 years from now or 10 years from now, how would your perception and experience been similar or different?

Looking back is easier for me than looking forward. However, there are a couple of things I do know. 10 years ago I was a very different person. I was in a relatively young relationship (actually, it was already four years old … more of that in a minute) and I was very confident. I was working on my MBA, I was a director of a marketing department and I was extremely fit and comfortable with my appearance. At that time, I don’t know if I would have felt the “dagger” in my heart like I do now.

In the last 10 years … the following things have happened:
•   I completed my MBA (which was a good thing).
•   I lost my job because of a buy-out and a downsizing. (I did get another job – but it all played havoc with my self esteem).
•   I have battled my weight for several years now.
•   I lost my dad to cancer.
•   I am in the same relationship that I was in before. Now I know, however, I will never be with him the way that I had always hoped. I live in IN, he lives in SC – I am white, he is black. My family doesn’t have a problem with this … I have a sister-in-law who is from Trinidad. However, we are a secret because his parents can not accept the fact that he would date a white girl. Therein lies the rub.

In short, my life is not even remotely the same as it was 10 years ago. Now when I see BBM, it kills me. All of the pain, which is so palpable, breaks me in two. I am especially in tune with Jack’s devastation after he realizes he will never have the life with Ennis that he craved. Listening to the lyrics on the BBM soundtrack makes me cry. Jack’s death is also difficult. Knowing what it is to lose someone you love is extremely overwhelming. I think back to all of the times I could have told my dad how much he was loved and appreciated instead of taking him for granted …. everything I could have said or done that I didn’t …. It took me over seven years to accept my dad’s death.  I can only imagine what it would have been like for Ennis … who lost the love of his life.

[Tristann]

Oi, this movie hit me hard. I'm still reeling. This is a movie that depicted real love like no other. It reminds me of the way I see love on so many levels. Someone once said, "who said that the great love of your life has to last?". How true. Hollywood tends to make us believe in the 'happily forever after', but no one made that rule. The love that Jack and Ennis share is in my mind the "great love" and even though they didn't get to spend their lives together, it doesn't detract from the idea that they were each others "great love". The movie does such a great job of portraying their love (even with all the questions one has) that I sometimes have to remind myself to stop worrying about Ennis and him being alone now. And when you have to remind yourself occasionaly that they were characters 'only' you realise what impact the movie has on your life.

[Rayn]

Someone once said, "who said that the great love of your life has to last?". How true. Hollywood tends to make us believe in the 'happily forever after', but no one made that rule.

Yes, right on Tristann, love comes in many forms to many couples and while it's different for each, it 's also the same in many ways too.  Anyone who has loved, can understand others who have too.  Anyone who has known love is lucky to have experienced the abiding joy, unforgetable bliss and the sorrow when, like all things in life, it comes to a physical end.  But while it ends, it is not destroyed.  It lives on within us, in memory, in personal history, in stories and poems, in paintings and sculpture, in music and much more, in our cells, in our genes: though all this, we give it to the next generation to continue the great adventure.  Love is a mystery and a great adventure into the heart of humanity where we find both the destructive and creative forces within the Mind and what we do with those forces defines who we are. 

Peace,
Rayn

[Tristann]

Yes, right on Tristann, love comes in many forms to many couples and while it's different for each, it 's also the same in many ways too.  Anyone who has loved, can understand others who have too.  Anyone who has known love is lucky to have experienced the abiding joy, unforgetable bliss and the sorrow when, like all things in life, it comes to a physical end.  But while it ends, it is not destroyed.  It lives on within us, in memory, in personal history, in stories and poems, in paintings and sculpture, in music and much more, in our cells, in our genes: though all this, we give it to the next generation to continue the great adventure.  Love is a mystery and a great adventure into the heart of humanity where we find both the destructive and creative forces within the Mind and what we do with those forces defines who we are. 

Peace,
Rayn

Wow, Rayn! Really profound words and very well written. I'm thinking of making a couple of backgrounds for users of this forum and perhaps I can use your words on them if you don't mind? Let me know please. Again, thanks for the beautifull reply.

[Brown Eyes]

bump
 

[Noviani]

Neither would I. Nobody in real life knows how much it has affected me, how obsessed I am. My husband has an idea of it, because he knows how often I've seen it in theatre. But even he does not know the dimesion.

Glad this tread exist.

i guess why we are like this for so many different reason, but mostly becasue we can relate ourselve with one or two things in the movie, and added up by how divine the characters are born, and how the  movie present their love stories.

the other movie i watch eagerly more than twice is harry Potter 1 and Titanic.

But with BBM, i stop counting.

Oops Bos coming, gotta go

see you around

[Brown Eyes]

Quote from: Penthesilea on June 16, 2006, 07:00:38 pm

Nobody in real life knows how much it has affected me, how obsessed I am.

Heya, this is a really interesting thing to note.  I'm the exact same way.  No one in my "real life" has any idea that I'm this obsessed with BBM.  Certainly no one knows that this board exists much less that I'm a moderator here, etc.  A few friends know that I love the movie and some even know how many times I've seen it in the theatre, but they don't really know about the whole world of Brokie-dom.  I find it sort of fun to keep it a little secret.

[serious crayons]

Thanks for bumping this thread, Amanda.    It's interesting to note that I started this thread on June 16 and, more than five months later, I still don't know the answer.

So much has happened in that time! I've spent a cumulative (mumble, mumble) days here, and plenty of additional hours on imdb, discussing every nuance of the movie.  I've "met" (mostly online, but occasionally in person) lots and lots of Brokies -- some whom I have a lot in common with, and some I have very little in common with. I have found people whose paths would never in a million years have crossed mine if we didn't share this one big passion. In RL, I have good friends, compassionate and sensitive people whose opinions I otherwise respect, who don't really seem to "get" the movie and/or like it fine but aren't profoundly moved by it. When I point out why they should love it, they might gamely give it another shot but it still never really grabs them the way it does us.

So finally I've just come to shrug and accept it. I don't know why we're like this. It can't be explained in any rational way. It's almost like we've been mysteriously chosen. 

[ednbarby]

In RL, I have good friends, compassionate and sensitive people whose opinions I otherwise respect, who don't really seem to "get" the movie and/or like it fine but aren't profoundly moved by it. When I point out why they should love it, they might gamely give it another shot but it still never really grabs them the way it does us.

I have good friends like these, too.  And I have to tell you all, ashamed as I am of admitting it (because it points to how arrogant I've become in my beliefs), I think less of them now than I used to.  And I think more of people I didn't used to consider to be good friends because they got it.  A lot more.  I actually judge people based on whether they get this movie or not.  It's no longer enough just to have seen it, though I certainly rate people who at least gave it a shot over those who refuse/aren't interested.  You have to have seen it and been moved by it.  I don't care if you're a bonafide Brokie or not - even just one viewing, as long as it haunts you, is good enough.

Am I a sick puppy, or what?

[isabelle]

It's no longer enough just to have seen it, though I certainly rate people who at least gave it a shot over those who refuse/aren't interested.  You have to have seen it and been moved by it.  I don't care if you're a bonafide Brokie or not - even just one viewing, as long as it haunts you, is good enough.

Am I a sick puppy, or what?

Well, from another sick puppy, the answer has to be no!

I am somewhat like you, I cannot feel really close to people (even my formerly close friends) if they haven't given it a shot, or if they didn't like the film, or thought it was "ok".

I remember a similar thread on IMDb in the heyday of the BBM boards there, and mormojo (Scott) and I posted things along these lines:
"I am still processing, still trying to understand what I am going through; it feels like a spiritual experience, a spiritual awakening " (and this is from one agnostic bordering on atheism!). I am still not sure why we are like this, but our very souls certainly have been touched in a quasi spiritual way.

Someone earlier in this thread said maybe we were "chosen", in order to meet on these boards. This atheist gone barmy tends to think this theory is perfectly plausible!

All I know is that 10 months later (to the day), I am still utterly in love with the movie, with Jack and Ennis, and wondering whether this feeling will ever change; it might be altered somewhat once I have finally done what Annie said we were supposed to do (finish the story in our own real lives), but I do not think I will ever fall out of love with BBM. I have indeed been "awakened" from a boring slumber mixed with a lack of truthfulness about what I want in life and who I am (Ennis-style), and for that I will always cherish Brokeback Mountain.

God that was pretty intense and serious stuff, (hope it didn't sound too pompous) but it felt good to say it: I LOVE THIS FILM.

[ednbarby]

You couldn't sound too pompous (or even pompous at all) if you tried, Isabelle.

I think that when the film art form is at its best is when a film actually changes you.  I can count on one hand the films I've seen in my lifetime that I would say have done that - that have actually changed the way I look at the world and behave in it - and Brokeback Mountain is amongst them.  And of the ones that I would count, Brokeback has changed me the most profoundly in that it is the only one that's helped me truly accept myself just as I am.  I swear I carry myself a little straighter and taller, look people in the eye more directly and deeply, and speak with more conviction and feeling than I ever have, and that it is because of this movie and its impact on me.

To people who say "It's just a movie," I say, "OK. Then 'Romeo & Juliet' is 'just a play' and the Mona Lisa is 'just a painting.'"  If they shrug that off with a "Whatever" or some such thing, I say, "Your loss."  Now, THAT'S pompous.  But I don't care.

[Brown Eyes]

ednbarby and isabelle,

I LOVE both of your posts.   

And, for the record I completely agree that this film has changed my life for the better too.

[karen1129]

I will never forget this film, til my dying day.  I still think about Jack and Ennis every night when I go to bed.  The impact it had on me is something I am grateful for.  The best thing it did for me..... and I'm really not sure why, or how.... is it
made me get all the negatives out of my life.  My thinking is defininetly different, and for that, I am grateful.  No negativity in my life.  Won't allow it from others that are around me either.

Does that make sense?

Karen

[Daniel]

I have continued to enumerate our special connections with the universe and how this film has affected them in all of my postings, here, and even moreso on IMDB, when my posts were left alone by the various trolls that resided there. We are not "sick puppies" or anything else sick for feeling this way about this particular film. We are not the first people to connect with a film in such a deep, resounding way, and we will not be the last. Many of us have been surprised by our connection to the film, and so many of us are still deer caught in the headlights, but this is not the first time that it has been experienced.

If you do not believe me, look at some of the Sufi mystic poetry of the twelfth century, or at some of the fourteenth century works inspired by the church or the rebirth of classicism. No work of art during the Renaissance came from a small amount of spiritual connection with the subjects that inspired them. Everything about the Renaissance, from its redefined concept of the soul to the new artistic expansions of universal views, was brought about by some spiritual or artistic experience: an aesthetic one to be certain, but perhaps something deeper.

It would not be too far from the truth to perceive our response and the growth of this community as a Renaissance. We have connected to a deep moment of art so profound that it is transforming every facet of our being. As the community grows, and we learn to explore all of these facets, we can nurture the Renaissance within ourselves, and thus sponsor a Renaissance which may indeed be capable of transforming some lesser aspects of human civilization. Perhaps we happy few have been called to dedicate ourselves to this subtle but powerful transformation: to aid the expansion of human consciousness; to translate heartache to heart-growth; to mold our lives into dedicated if flawed mirrors of the ideal; to alter the underlying beliefs of humanity which have so far been of little use to our spiritual manifest destiny.

Can it be that we are the first artists, philosophers, and aestheticists of the New Renaissance? Will the human perspective grow from this experience or be diminished? Whoever has started this thread has asked why we are like this? I wonder now if this should be what we are asking. Is it not more important to understand how we are to use our reactions and responses to this incredible and beautiful story to grow beyond what we were before?

[serious crayons]

Whoever has started this thread has asked why we are like this? I wonder now if this should be what we are asking. Is it not more important to understand how we are to use our reactions and responses to this incredible and beautiful story to grow beyond what we were before?

As the aforementioned person who started this thread, I would argue that both are valid questions, and that seeking the answers to either can help us grow beyond what we were before. But thank you, Daniel, for a beautiful post! As always, you've offered some valuable insights and ideas. 

[isabelle]

My thinking is defininetly different, and for that, I am grateful.  No negativity in my life.  Won't allow it from others that are around me either.

Does that make sense?

Karen

Absolutely, Karen. It makes sense to me as I am striving to kick all negativity, coming from me or people I have to live or work with, out of my life.

But it is taking me so bloody long! OK, not 4 f****** years, but almost one, and I haven't started being really truthful yet with the people around me, in "real" life (I am truthful here! And Amanda I agree, keeping these visits to Bettermost is a very enjoyable little secret!).
I am slow, I am worried; I am going to cause turmoil when I start *speaking* to the persons around me; but I can feel it is all about to come out, I am about to spill the beans   . It's taken time, but by the end of this month I think things will have been spoken.

Namely, that I am ashamed I could not put up with this society's (France's)  bitter homophobia 13 years ago, and I chose a "normal" (squirm squirm) life with a guy over my clandestine love with my lovely.

I am 40; not too late to let everyone know I have come to my senses. I just think I would feel so happy and liberated just by saying it to everyone I know! And, I do think it is the least I can do: I owe it to Brokeback Mountain.
I feel I have no right to let this film down, or all my posting here will have been meaningless, just another make believe.

[Daniel]

It may very well be because I have explored every possibility in the exploration of why that I am so eager to move beyond. My upcoming book Dreamfilm: Brokeback Mountain Explored is the result of that soul-search, and may be of some value to people who are interested in pursuing the question "Why?"

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Isabelle!

That was an wonderful post!  Thanks for sharing this with us.  And, I'm so happy to hear that your experience with the film and maybe with Brokie communities too have helped you on a personal level.  The sentence from your post that goadra highlighted really is amazing.


I think the answer to why we're like this is probably deeply personal for all of us.

[isabelle]

Hi Isabelle!

That was an wonderful post!  ... your experience with the film and maybe with Brokie communities too have helped you on a personal level. 

I think the answer to why we're like this is probably deeply personal for all of us.

Thanks Amanda. The answer is personal for all of us, that is true.
And yes, finding so many lovely souls to share with, first on IMDb and then here, has definitely  helped me. If I hadn't come across the link to IMDb, totally per chance, I would have tried to swallow my pain and sorrow, I might not have come to understand fully why BBM hit me so hard and that I must make changes, and I would have lived on, as if living someone else's life.

[Rayn]

Wow, Rayn! Really profound words and very well written. I'm thinking of making a couple of backgrounds for users of this forum and perhaps I can use your words on them if you don't mind? Let me know please. Again, thanks for the beautifull reply.

Sure you can use what I've written here.  That's fine. 

Rayn

[Penthesilea]

OMG Penthesilea, I think you just helped me figure it out - why this film has such a spell on me.  I was 5 y/o before I met my cousins, Aunt and Uncle who lived 1000 miles from us.  My Aunt Betty (my mother's sister) was so much different than my mother.  She was sweet, kind and happy.  My mother was more interested in how she looked - her hair, makeup and nails, and cooking and baking and getting compliments from my father.  I always felt like I was just her "little helper" not her daughter.  But, it was even more noticeable at my Aunt's house just how much more fun we had and the things that we were allowed to do (my 2 girl cousins were nearly the same age) and after being there for 10 days, I didn't want to leave.  I didn't realize the whole "thing" until after we got home though.  I felt like I was living in a prison!  My mother always said rude things about my Aunt and tried to get me to hate her.  The same with my cousins.  But, it didn't work.  One time we visited them and I had to borrow a dress from my cousin to go to church.  It was the happiest I have ever been.  I really wanted to take the dress home.  Like you, it was a safe place for me to live and my home was not.  My cousins came to visit one summer and they left early because my mother was so strict with them that one of them sassed her.  My mother didn't speak to her sister or mother for years after that and she said very ugly things about that part of her family.  I never did learn why she hated her sister so much, but I loved her and would have stayed there if I could.

Penthesilea, I feel like this part of my life parallels yours in a way.  I felt like I lived in a prison and I never sassed and never dared to say anything.  I was "in a shell" until I went to college.  People always thought I was shy, but I was just afraid to say anything.  College was different though.  But, I am back in the shell again - easier for me I guess.

BBM hit me like a ton of bricks and I cried for 6 weeks and dreamed about it, woke up and wanted to see the film - saw it twice a day for that 6 weeks time.  I thought I was going nuts.  Thank God for IMDb because there I discovered that I wasn't the only one that reacted that way.  I moved over here a few weeks ago because of the problems on IMDb. 

Not that I feel I need to, but in case you are taking a poll, I am a 64 y/o straight woman with 2 children and 1 grandchild.

Thank you Penthesilea,

Merrily

OMG. Just yesterday, when this thread showed up again, I contemplated to delete this very post you refer to. In the end, I decided against it and now am glad about my decision.

Our stories sound eerily alike.

My mother always said rude things about my Aunt and tried to get me to hate her.  The same with my cousins.  But, it didn't work.

The badmouthing - I hadn't mentioned it, but my mother did this as well. At every opportunity. How I hated her for that when I was a teenager. It is such a mean thing to do. Not being willing or able to create a loving and accepting home for a child - and when the child manages to find another, more loving backup family, then to try to destroy that, on top of all other things, this is truly mean in my book.

So many details are alike in our stories: I also loved to switch clothes with my cousins when I was still a kid. Every once in a while, one of my cousins was allowed to stay with me for a few days. They never liked it, but together we found ways to outsmart my (biological) parents and have halfways good times despite of them. And my mother also once had a very huge blow-up with my aunt and uncle.

College was different though. But, I am back in the shell again - easier for me I guess.

Shit, that's hard. Here our stories differ. The older I got, the more I rebelled against everything and finally broke free from my mother at age 17, and managed to get a better relationship to my father after that.
I was always outgoing and extroverted and not even my mother was able to expel that. She may have succeeded if it weren't for my other family, my refuge, my backup. I am so thankful that I had (still have) this second family.

BBM hit me like a ton of bricks

We all know the feeling. And the reasons for it may be just as many as there are Brokies.

OMG Penthesilea, I think you just helped me figure it out - why this film has such a spell on me.

I'm glad when I was able to help a bit. With a one year old post, that I almost deleted hours before you read it. Some say, there ain't no coincidences.

[RossInIllinois]

"Why do we care so much?  Who are we?"

Ellemeno asked these questions on another thread, one in which participants have been spending countless hours analyzing impossibly minute, almost invisible, details of the movie. I've long wondered those same things myself. What is it about us that makes us so crazy -- and I do mean crazy, but in a good way -- about Brokeback Mountain?

When I met Front-Ranger recently, we discovered that we both love fish tacos, and wondered, sort of jokingly, if there might be correlation between Brokeback-loving and fish taco-loving. (Results of a poll proved inconclusive, though did produce some good recipes.) Then yesterday I met YaadPyar and we were wondering, in a mystified way, what we all have in common that might explain this passion. I started reeling off what I assumed were obvious basic commonalities: "Well, we're open-minded, we like to analyze things, we like movies -- " and she stopped me to point out she's normally not all that into movies!

So what is it about us? I've seen this question raised before -- have raised it myself, in fact -- but I can't say I've ever been fully satisfied with the answer. We have different ages, genders, religions, sexual orientations, ethnicities, personalities, jobs, backgrounds, cities, hobbies, families, favorite cowboys  ...  We even have different reasons to hang out at BetterMost: some love to dissect the movie, some more interested in building community, and so on. And if we do have a few things in common, those characteristics aren't exclusive to Brokeback-lovers. Lots of people who are open-minded and analytical and like movies preferred Capote!

The one thing we all seem to share (or at least, to have shared at some point) is this huge, unexplainable, consuming passion for one particular movie (and/or short story). But why?!?!??

O.C.D. maybe?

[serious crayons]

O.C.D. maybe?

  Well, if so, it's very situational OCD.

[Rayn]

There's something I'd like to offer here.

      I was thinking of movies that I like and why I like them and while I like all kinds, I really go for serious drama.  Brokeback Mt, Capote, Out of Africa, A Thin Red Line, The Messenger Joan of Arc, Gandhi, The Painted Veil, Total Eclipse, Death in Venice....  these are the kinds of serious drama I especially like.  They are spell binding, suspenseful, thrilling great stories, but all have one characteristic.  They are stories about good people who love intensely, accomplish much and lose everything. They are tragedies.

      Truman Capote's love of his art and his loving sympathy for the men he was writing In Cold Blood about was clear, and he loses everything.  He can't even continue his writing very well after the heights he reached with In Cold Blood.   Baroness Karin Von Blitzen (sp?) in Out of Africa gets her title, an exotic life in Africa where she meets the great love of her life and loses him to a plane accident, along with her farm just prior. 

     In "A Thin Red Line" the two main characters are opposites like Jack and Ennis.  Sean Penn plays the dark realist and Jim Caviezel plays the bright idealist who comes to terms with the evil in humanity by courageously facing it in war and, loses everything in the quest, is killed.  "Where is your bright spark now?" Penn asks over his grave?  All of these movies carry "a bright spark" we love, that is taken from us, extinguished.

    No one needs to hear an explanation of how Gandhi, The Messenger, The Painted Veil, Total Eclipse or Death in Venice fit this genre.  In everyone of them the main character(s) accomplishes something great and loses it or is killed.   And watching them, we are thrilled and inspired by what they do and crushed by the outcome of the story.  They are dramatic tragedy at their best.

     The big difference between Brokeback Mountain is that Jack and Ennis are common folk, like most people who watch the movie.  The only thing truly great or unusual about them is that they accomplish a 20 plus year love relationship against all odds. It's here we identify with them because they are not saints or holy men or great writers or soldiers, but rather ordinary men presented with an extraordinary situation in life and they take the situation, as best they can, and make something out of it that is intensely beautiful, memorable and deep.

     I don't know about others, but that is why I relate to the story.  I see myself in the characters and know how they feel.  Brokeback Mt. is also one of the first films that I feel takes the feelings of men in love and gives us a story so close to reality that we continue to go back for more and more.   I love great drama, good comedy, interesting romance, incredible sci fi... We are all movie fanatics, I think, and being one, then finding a story that has the power of emotions like Brokeback is like a finding a gold mine.  We start digging and keep finding more to treasure and share.   But isn't that what great art of any kind is, a treasure chest of entertainment and shared emotions, something beautiful and rich to return to whenever we want.

     And so we are the way we are because great art is the way it is... it will always have power over the hearts and minds of men and women.  That's what it's meant and made to do!


I Salute all Brokies! 
We're like Trekkies, just more down to earth!   

Rayn

[Daniel]

My book Dreamfilm: Brokeback Mountain Explored which explores many of the ways in which the film affects its audience is now available from the publisher at http://www.xlibris.com/Dreamfilm.

[Rayn]

Gee Thanks, merr7242!  Glad you liked my contribution here.

Peace,
R

[Rayn]

Hey I forgot to mention a movie that fits into the Brokeback Mt. (tragedy) genre too, a fav or mine.  A River Runs Through It!   What a wonderful, sad, true to life tale, a real heartbreaker too.  The story, by Norman Maclean, is excellent too.

Rayn

[Rayn]

It was directed by Robert Redford, won a couple of Oscars, the cinematography is awesome, the story is very poignant and touching, funny, but also very sad.  I like it because it's about three men, father and two sons, and of mother but the mother plays a lessor role.  There are other women in it too, but it' s very much a story about fishing, fly fishing in Montana.  I used to fish a lot when I was a boy. 

The relationship between the two brothers is, in some ways, similar to Jack and Ennis, strong brother-bond of feelings, but without sexual expression.  They're both very much non gay, non bi sexual men.  Anyway, it's a classic.  Hope you enjoy it.

Rayn

[Katie77]

I havent been on Bettermost as regularly as I used to be.....but lately have put in a few contributions.....

Today,I got a personal message from David, saying...."good to see you"....."Ive missed you"...."hope everything is ok with you".......

Getting David's message gave me the same feeling I get, when I see Ennis standing at the top of the stairs saying "Jack, fuckin' Twist".......

Maybe we are like this, because we all have the capacity to feel the same way................

[ednbarby]

Glad to see you back here again, too, Katie.

And Rayn and  Merrily, I own "A River Runs Through It."

"I am haunted by waters."  That line closes it.  And closes my life.  I am absolutely, irrevocably mesmerized by water of all kinds.  Always have been.  I moved to coastal Florida largely because I was entranced by it.  Nothing moves me like light and wind dancing on water.  I could die happy listening to a bubbling brook - I'd settle for a fountain.

Aside from that, I love the drama of The Prodigal Son.  There is the one son who does everything right - everything exactly the way his parents would want it - Ennis.  And then there is the one who just has that Spark of Life that cannot be denied - Jack.

Oh - were we talking about "A River Runs Through It"? 

[Rayn]

Hi Barb, Merrily and welcome back Katie77,

      I love water too, which is why I lived so long in S. D. lilke Merrily, but I am really haunted my mountains most. so I will retired in some or near some one day, so they won't haunt me so much!

Rayn

[Rayn]

True, but I wanna be right in  them or very near.  Even an hour to Julian is too far for me and Big Bear is way too far.   I want mountains in my backyard which is a big reason for going to Canada.

R

[serious crayons]

 

I read this too fast, and when I first saw SD I thought you guys were talking about South Dakota!!

South Dakota does kind of have mountains, if you can call the Black Hills mountains. But when you talked about being near the water, I thought, hmmm, that's a part of South Dakota I'm not familiar with! 

I get it now.

[Rayn]

Oh, yeah, sorry... San Diego!     

Rayn

[ednbarby]

I loooooooooooove San Diego.  I'd love to live there.  Had one of the best times of my life there.  My husband proposed to me on the beach at Coronado (at the Naval base there).  We had lunch outside at the Coronado Hotel the next day, and dinner in the best seafood restaurant I've ever been to the next night.  Wonderful, wonderful.

So many places I'd love to live in...  Sadly, none of them is Florida (where I actually live).  Another thing that haunts me is cities.  There was that song in the 80s - Glenn Frey's "You Belong to the City."  That pretty much says it all.  I've never felt so completely at home as I've felt walking the streets in cities like Chicago, New York (Manhattan), San Francisco, and London.  The mountains call out to me, and so do waters.  But I feel strangely disconnected around them.  Not so in the city.  Must have been a Londoner in a very lovely past life or something (too bad I don't believe in that, though).

[nic]

Hi guys,

Just randomly browsing around the site like I do when I have a rare moment of indulgence, & I was struck by your words of feeling you were in a shell, because that is my experience too.  I grew a protective shell because of various childhood factors & although I have come out of it partially when something is such a part of you it is difficult to extricate yourself from it.  I identify with Ennis strongly as I feel he has a self-imposed shell & is very internalized. 

I don't think that everyone who gets BBM necessarily has this same experience & it's probably fruitless to ask, but you can't help being curious can you?   

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Why are we like this? My 2 cents: it is like having a cast on your leg for months and you can't scratch that itch, you may have even put it out of mind just to endure it. But when you are able to reach it, ahhh relief!

Ang Lee said: Its a story that been waiting to be told.

[Scott6373]

It's  strange thing.  A few days ago, I decided to drag the book on tape with me for my commute to work.  I have not had a BBM experience in perhaps six or seven months.  No film, no book, no soundtrack.  I listened very carefully (even though I know the book/CD backward and forward), and, while I was affected in sort of the same way, I found myself more critical of the writing.  I wonder if our collective reactions temporarily dull our sense of craftmanship.  I want to watch the film now to see what reaction I have to that...if it's similar to the reaction I had to the book after all this time.

[Front-Ranger]

Well, if it was the Campbell Scott version, I'm sorry, it just does not do justice to the writing (even if his name is Scott!) If you want to appreciate good writing, you should read it. Either that or listen to the Rodney Giles version, which is read with love!!

[Scott6373]

Well, if it was the Campbell Scott version, I'm sorry, it just does not do justice to the writing (even if his name is Scott!) If you want to appreciate good writing, you should read it. Either that or listen to the Rodney Giles version, which is read with love!!

Oh I have read it many many times.  I can see the words on the page when he is reading it.  I am speaking of incongruities in AP's choices, not Mr. Scott's reading of it.

[ifyoucantfixit]

       What specifics are you talking about Scott?

[Rayn]

Hi guys,

Just randomly browsing around the site like I do when I have a rare moment of indulgence, & I was struck by your words of feeling you were in a shell, because that is my experience too.  I grew a protective shell because of various childhood factors & although I have come out of it partially when something is such a part of you it is difficult to extricate yourself from it.  I identify with Ennis strongly as I feel he has a self-imposed shell & is very internalized. 

I don't think that everyone who gets BBM necessarily has this same experience & it's probably fruitless to ask, but you can't help being curious can you?   

Nic, you have a very valid point about Ennis and many people who live in "protective shells" because of childhood experiences.  It's pretty clear why Ennis is the way he is, except to Ennis, who is only to beginning to understand himself at the end of the movie.

Considering why we are "like this",  I'd like to add that I think people who've known a lot of loss in life can be more deeply moved by the movie.  I know that's true for me.  I've thought about why that is, and slowly it's become clear that the profound effect the movie had on me is directly related to the amount of loss I've had in life.  If I'm like others, and I am, then people who've known great loss identify with the characters more; so the emotional impact and obsession can be greater for us.

I'm sure everyone in the community relates to the movie with or without personal loss, because there's so much in it that's so real to us, but loss is the terrible fact in Ennis' life, which doesn't even begin to look at the losses in Jack's life!  Ennis' losses of parents, childhood innocence, siblings, a marriage and then Jack are overwhelming.   It's a wonder he didn't sink into depression and go under for good.  Thank goodness for his girls and the little bit of light the begins to shine through the crack in the shell at the end of the movie.  

Rayn

[nic]

...... Thank goodness for his girls and the little bit of light the begins to shine through the crack in the shell at the end of the movie.  

Rayn[/color][/size]

I also say thank goodness for Jack, as Jack was the one to first infiltrate Ennis's "shell". When Jack was around that shell more or less exploded into a thousand pieces!  I had a "Jack" (a "Jill", or "Jackie", actually) that first infiltrated my shell so again that's what I can relate to in this story.  Later on I think Ennis let Alma Jnr in due to the unconditional love he uncontrollably experienced for his child, but with the framework being a parent-sibling relationship it's not the same as a partner/lover relationship - equally wondrous I should say, as is any connection, especially for those who are so internalized.

Great points about loss - at first I thought you meant exclusivley loss of person you were close to, but I agree with the other examples you came up.  Premature or enforced loss of childhood innocence has so many profound effects, & can affect in different ways, as shown by J & E - they both experienced that in different ways & it later expressed itself differently. 

The common factor definitely must have something to do with life experience (such as these losses), as in general it tends to affect people roughly mid-20s & upwards and/or those that have had "crosses to bear" earlier in life.  It's relatively rare to find people who don't relate their reaction to BBM to something deeper rather than completely not knowing why they feel it so strongly.

[Rayn]

I agree with you Nic, 100%....  Thanks for your letter~

Rayn

[Penthesilea]

The common factor definitely must have something to do with life experience (such as these losses), as in general it tends to affect people roughly mid-20s & upwards and/or those that have had "crosses to bear" earlier in life.  It's relatively rare to find people who don't relate their reaction to BBM to something deeper rather than completely not knowing why they feel it so strongly.

Another big factor, if not the biggest, in the movie is regrets. It's apparent that the majority of people here on BM (and I think also on DC) are not teenagers or in their twenties anymore. I'd say most of us are not too far from 40 or older than 40.

It's logical: when you're 40, you already have half of your life behind you. You are old enough to have some life experiences. We all make mistakes in our lives, turn the wrong way, make wrong decisions. The longer you live, the more chances to make wrong decisions. Only few people manage to reach 40 without having some things in their life they truly regret.

So regret is another common factor.

[Rayn]

Yes, regret is a big factor, for sure.  And like merr7242, I too felt that when I first saw the movie.  An awareness of regret set me in motion to change things in my life so that I wouldn't do or create things that I might soon regret.  I got a new job (in the same field), moved to another city and changed my vacation plans to do see Alberta this year instead of doing the same old same old. 

But for me at least, an awareness of why the movie had such a big impact on me and the connection to the personal losses  came much later.  I felt the loss of Jack in the movie first of course and knew in some ways it was similar to losing someone I loved, but much later, I realized that there were many more emotional threads that were connected that I hadn't really seen. 

In fact, I just became aware of them a year or so after watching the movie the first time.  Sometimes the deeper insights come more slowly to some of us, I guess.   Oh, and about age and life experiences, you're right on, Penthesilea , right on.

Rayn

[TheravadaAskesis]

 I love this thread, why this movie has such a hold on me is something I've wondered about too. And I agree with you guys about the idea of regret playing a role in it. After Jack and Ennis lose their Eden on Brokeback they spend their lives trying to recreate it for all too brief moments. But they're never successful, they can can recreate the environment (wilderness, camping, horseback riding) but it wasn't the environment that made it special in the first place.
 This cycle of trying to recreate or hold onto idyllic times in life by reusing the familiar outward trappings while ignoring the emotional and actually special inside is a cycle I can relate to. This ties into the idea of regret for me because of all the wasted time spent trying to recreate something instead  of realizing what was important and creating or finding something new. Seeing Jack and Ennis live through this cycle without ever figuring it out (well Jack does in the final encounter by the lake) was a crushing experience for me. I think the initial reason for me being obsessed with this movie was me trying to figure out consciously what my gut recognized immediately.
 Eventually when I started to figure it out, this movie became a reminder to me about the need to remember the past and know what was important about it, but to ultimately move forward and find those important things in a new more sustainable place. That is why I'll always have Brokeback on the mind, because it reminds me to move forward and never forget the lessons I've learned.

[Rayn]

....... this movie became a reminder to me about the need to remember the past and know what was important about it, but to ultimately move forward and find those important things in a new more sustainable place.

Right on bro!  I feel the same way too

[moremojo]

But they're never successful, they can can recreate the environment (wilderness, camping, horseback riding) but it wasn't the environment that made it special in the first place.

This is such a wise observation. My co-worker and friend, when finally catching up with Brokeback Mountain via DVD, stated that he expected the film to be much sadder, citing the frequent rendezvous enjoyed by Ennis and Jack as mitigating factors in the ultimate tragedy. But I think he was overlooking, as so many of us have, the stasis that these furtive get-togethers represented, and the kind of entrapment that resulted from them. As you point out, Jack eventually came to recognize this, and wanted something more fulfilling than what these trysts represented.

It compounds the tragedy at the end that Ennis is transfixed by the visible reminders of that vanished summer of 1963, suggesting that he remains stuck in a state of desire for circumstances that can never be recaptured.

[Rayn]

It compounds the tragedy at the end that Ennis is transfixed by the visible reminders of that vanished summer of 1963, suggesting that he remains stuck in a state of desire for circumstances that can never be recaptured.

         Yes, TheravadaAskesis' observation about what really makes a place truly special is excellent!  I don't, however, see Ennis "stuck in a state of desire for circumstances that can never be recaptured."  and here's why and what I mean....

    There are many other suggestions and ideas in the movie about how Ennis might end up.  He found the shirts in the closet almost by chance.  I say almost by chance because what Ennis is compelled to do after Jack's death is "...to see what happened."  Taken in a context broader than just how Jack died, seeing what happened leads Ennis to a greater understanding of the value of love.  Though it may seem that way, Ennis didn't find the shirts in Jack's closet just by chance.  He set himself on an active search for "what happened" and in doing so he discovered that "love happened" and happened more deeply than he understood when Jack was alive. 

    Finding their shirts together as they were, the realization of how much Jack had loved from the start came to the forefront of Ennis' heart and mind.  It is, in fact, a sad and painful but liberating experience for Ennis which is why he can begin to start changing his ways when his daughter tells him of her wedding plans.

      In that scene, everything is so plain on Ennis' face and in his eyes, "This guy, he loves you?" was the important question, a question Ennis only half understood before losing Jack and finding their shirts. The end of Brokeback Mountain is filled with both losing and finding, loss and gain, discovery and realization for Ennis.   It's sad he learns one of life's most important lessons when it's too late to share it with Jack, but at least he's realized it and in that there is hope. The frightening thing is that it may be too late to find someone else to love, but it's not impossible.   Having had the realization, Ennis may very well be able to change his isolation, work through and rise above his fears, and in time, find someone else to love. 

Anyway, I know that's optimistic, and we all have valid and different points of view, but that's what I see in the picture from where I sit in the theater!    Have a wonderful day all you Brokies...



Peace,
Rayn

[TheravadaAskesis]

 Hey moremojo and Rayn,
 
 I'm glad you enjoyed my post and thanks for the compliments. To add to this conversation I was wondering about a couple of things that happen at the end of Brokeback. I should go back and look but I'm pretty sure when we see the view through Ennis's window at the end there are no mountains to be seen, just prairie. Could this be symbolic of Ennis's no longer looking for Jack in the mountains but instead finally living together with Jack in his home (i.e.- the shirts). I wonder about this because Proulx writes in the short story that Ennis didn't want to "know Jack was...to be buried on the grieving plain." Could the view of the prairie be Ennis's acceptance of the loss of Jack?
 Another point I wonder about is, if Ennis was relying on those trips to the mountain as an attempt at having the best of both worlds (being with Jack, but being able to remain safe in his shell) was it maybe for the best that he wasn't allowed to get the ashes from the Twists?
If Ennis had spread the ashes of Jack on Brokeback would he have just returned there over and over by himself, still trying to recapture that summer. Would being able to go back to Brokeback and be with Jack whenever he wanted (even if Jack was only there in spirit and ash), be enough for him not to move on? Again maybe this ties in with the image of the prairie in the final shoot as being symbolic of Ennis having moved on from, although not forgotten about or stopped loving, Jack.
  I'm new to Bettermost and have really enjoyed the posts I've read from you guys in other parts of the forums while I've been exploring. Thanks again for the positive replies.

[Rayn]

Hey moremojo and Rayn,
 
 I'm glad you enjoyed my post and thanks for the compliments. To add to this conversation I was wondering about a couple of things that happen at the end of Brokeback. I should go back and look but I'm pretty sure when we see the view through Ennis's window at the end there are no mountains to be seen, just prairie. Could this be symbolic of Ennis's no longer looking for Jack in the mountains but instead finally living together with Jack in his home (i.e.- the shirts). I wonder about this because Proulx writes in the short story that Ennis didn't want to "know Jack was...to be buried on the grieving plain." Could the view of the prairie be Ennis's acceptance of the loss of Jack?
 Another point I wonder about is, if Ennis was relying on those trips to the mountain as an attempt at having the best of both worlds (being with Jack, but being able to remain safe in his shell) was it maybe for the best that he wasn't allowed to get the ashes from the Twists?
If Ennis had spread the ashes of Jack on Brokeback would he have just returned there over and over by himself, still trying to recapture that summer. Would being able to go back to Brokeback and be with Jack whenever he wanted (even if Jack was only there in spirit and ash), be enough for him not to move on? Again maybe this ties in with the image of the prairie in the final shoot as being symbolic of Ennis having moved on from, although not forgotten about or stopped loving, Jack.
  I'm new to Bettermost and have really enjoyed the posts I've read from you guys in other parts of the forums while I've been exploring. Thanks again for the positive replies.

Hi TheravadaAskesis,

     I don't think anyone can give "an answer" to your question outside of speculation and guesses.  Since art, especially film, can be interpreted in many ways, it's nearly impossible to come to any "one answer" that can cover all bases.  I mean, we can answer for ourselves, which is formulating opinions and interpretations, but there are many views, many angles to any picture and depending on where one sits can change the view one gets, eh?

     So, here's some of my views:  I think it would have been good for the Twists to give Ennis Jack's ashes.  Jack wanted to be on Brokeback Mt and it probably would have helped Ennis with moving on.  I don't think Ennis is likely to ever forget Jack or the Mt, but I think he will, as time moves on, be able to live with the complete memory of both the joy and sadness there.

     The last frame of the movie is pretty clear, as you say, there is no more mountain.  The mountain is in the postcard, a reality only in Ennis' mind and heart.  Without Jack, the mountain is only a mountain, beautiful for many reasons, outside their friendship.  In truth, Jack was "the mountain" for Ennis.  He was a refuge, an escape, a loved one, but an element (person) that caused Ennis anxiety and fear too (not Jack the  man, but the relationship they had).  Mountains came be dangerous places too. One must be careful in mountains, as careful as one is in friendships.

     I think Ennis accepts Jack's death though, it's just gonna take time for him to move on.  I also think Ennis will return to mountains, maybe not Brokeback, but he did love the mountains.  In fact, in the book it says they never returned to Brokeback Mt.  They always went to other similar places.   I see Ennis living near or in mountains the rest of his life.

    Hope that helps some...

Rayn

     

[TheravadaAskesis]

  In truth, Jack was "the mountain" for Ennis.  He was a refuge, an escape, a loved one, but an element (person) that caused Ennis anxiety and fear too (not Jack the man, but the relationship they had).  Mountains came be dangerous places too. One must be careful in mountains, as careful as one is in friendships.

 Hi Rayn,

 I agree completely. Art is subjective and open to interpretation. The way I interpret different parts of this movie changes with each viewing and also through exposure to the ideas of others who have watched it. In fact some of my interpretations have changed back and forth between alternative possibilities so often that they are now stuck in some kind of limbo, and the mood I'm in watching the movie colors which interpretation I'll accept for that viewing. I guess I was trying more to just put out more possibilities as opposed to asking if they were "the" correct answer. Sorry I should have been a little clearer .

 But as far as putting out different possibilities goes, the quote from above really struck me. I'd never thought of the mountain being symbolic of Jack. The idea of needing to be as careful on mountains as you are in friendships is incredibly well put. I posted a thread on IMDB awhile back about the use of water as symbolism in the movie and somebody replied that the characters in the film could be seen as representing different elements, but I never considered who the overall environment could have represented. If asked I probably would have said Ennis (tough, complex, stormy) but you make a good point about it representing Jack and what he meant to Ennis as well. It makes me wonder about who the "mountains" in my life are. Yet another reason to dwell on Brokeback, this movie just keeps bringing up questions. Thanks for the ideas,

                                         TheravadaAskesis

[moremojo]

Hi, all--

Just wanted to affirm that, for my part, I too find the film's ending (unlike the story) hopeful, signified primarily by Ennis's decision to attend his daughter's wedding--a significant gesture of sacrifice for love's sake. Ennis may not find the fulfillment of romantic love (tied in with Jack, who is now deceased), but he has the love of his daughter, at least, and all kinds of love, whatever they may be, are precious in this all-too lonely and harsh world of ours.

As for the closing shot, it's worth emphasizing that, while we see no mountain outside the window, we do see the wind gently swaying the green field that can be seen there...and the wind, in the film, is a consistent metaphor for Jack. In windy Wyoming, Ennis will forever be reminded of his once and present love.

[Rayn]

What a film - so many emotions twisting and turning and churning.  Great.  Merrily

Yes, it's the mix and many layers of meaning and emotions that make the movie and the story such excellent works.

RR

[Penthesilea]

As for the closing shot, it's worth emphasizing that, while we see no mountain outside the window, we do see the wind gently swaying the green field that can be seen there...and the wind, in the film, is a consistent metaphor for Jack. In windy Wyoming, Ennis will forever be reminded of his once and present love.

I posted this quote a while ago in the Jack and the wind thread, but it fits so nicely here and the newer folks might not have seen it.

"You know where those winds come from? Well, this country up here is so close to paradise you can feel the breezes from heaven. That wind comes from the angels' wings. When they flap their wings the wind comes right down this valley."

The quote is by Buffalo Bill Cody and I found it in my Wyoming travel guide.

Just like you said, Scott. Through the wind, Jack, the ministering angel, will always be present in Ennis' life.

[moremojo]

I wonder if Annie Proulx knows of that Buffalo Bill quote--it seems so prescient of some of the motifs and suggestions inherent in both story and film. Thanks for sharing it here as well! 

[belbbmfan]

"You know where those winds come from? Well, this country up here is so close to paradise you can feel the breezes from heaven. That wind comes from the angels' wings. When they flap their wings the wind comes right down this valley."

The quote is by Buffalo Bill Cody and I found it in my Wyoming travel guide.

Those are beautiful, comforting words.

[Artiste]

Front-Ranger, may I say likewise to your post:

  FOr one thing, I have to start out by giving credit to Annie Proulx for developing an eponymous story that applies to everyone no matter what our age, gender, orientation, location, etc. 

..........

Yes, we do get Annie's story, and we still keep on finding her circles of life, her joies-de-vie, she encircles us with, with wonder every day!!

More to come... from all of us and guests!! WE wonder like Annie!!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Another big factor, if not the biggest, in the movie is regrets. It's apparent that the majority of people here on BM (and I think also on DC) are not teenagers or in their twenties anymore. I'd say most of us are not too far from 40 or older than 40.

It's logical: when you're 40, you already have half of your life behind you. You are old enough to have some life experiences. We all make mistakes in our lives, turn the wrong way, make wrong decisions. The longer you live, the more chances to make wrong decisions. Only few people manage to reach 40 without having some things in their life they truly regret.

So regret is another common factor

In a nutshell,,regret,turning right instead of left,realising too late and then having to live with the consquences.The grief and sheer desolation of knowing the clock cannot be turned back.
Coupled with I would guess in several cases a love lost,given up on or just plain impossible.Nothing turning out the way we maybe planned or envisaged it in youth.

In my case coupled with watching my kids and hoping they get it 'RIGHT'.the jealousy of youth and all that promise waiting to reach its potential,in direct contradiction with,in my case the fact that I did not get it right.

Finally the vain hope that just maybe its not too late.At least to make some changes.
For those who view beyond the movie,it can literally be life changing,and in some cases reaffirming.
Very astute writer and observer of the human condition as a whole,depicted by amazing actors and handled with extraordinary sensitivity by the director.

It IS the human condition.To want to love and be loved,and for most of us,to err from the moral highway(unless you are perfect,not me) to experience the guilt associated with that.Then as the years pass to reflect on what has transpired and attempt to put it in some perspective.

The film almost invites/gives permission for us to allow those feelings.Indeed to wallow in them and give full vent.And why not,for many of us they were very painful and hidden for too long.
For those not affected I suspect they are too busy feeling smug about their perfect lives,or portraying that facade.

Sorry if that sounds condescending.I just think some people really feel and others put on  very good show of feeling.

[Artiste]

Why are we like this?

Yes, we regret some past experiences!

We also can advance to our daily and future, and enrich our next ones more!! ??

WE can all create more and more happiness, as Annie and the BM movie brings us all hope!! And we all become HAPPIER, and happier!!
Au revoir,
hugs!!

[myprivatejack]

I think it is because Brokeback Mountain is one of those movie that has a mirror effect (I don't know if that's correct). What I mean is that we all find ourselves represented in Ennis or Jack, or both and in their tribulations, fears, doubts, pain, happiness and unhappiness. It doesn't matter if we don't share their sexual orientation. At least in my case, I haven't seen a movie that depicts a love story so close to real life, as this one. Love is not about falling for a perfect person and living happily ever after, as it is shown in many Hollywood movies. Love is imperfect and hard to deal with. It's a struggle, as Jake Gyllenhaal puts it, and that's what Brokeback Mountain is about, among other things of course.

I agree with you,Opinionista;although lots of times I have posed the same question to me ,why this so long lasting love if it's only a movie?...   Maybe the key is,as you say,that is easy to see oneself represented in some of the characters,no matters our sexual orientation,or if we have lived or not a similar unlucky love story...(In my case,I saw myself and my story from the very moment I watched the movie at theater,but I know perfectly that not everybody could say this so easily.).What makes Ennis and Jack so close to us is that they're not the perfect lovers of a romantic movie,so clean and nice and stuff...;they're imperfects,since they're real and ordinary persons who make mistakes and,in their struggle for finding a way to be happy they hurt somebody else falling into practices,like adultery and some promiscuity,that are socially rejected.
And  also,that -the same than Ennis and Jack fell for each other,in a great part,because they arrived to the other's side in the right moment,when they needed more someone like the other...-perhaps BBM arrived to our lives when we needed more a movie that treated homosexuality and gay people in general like "normal" people,reflecting their love as the love of the person next door,nothing more...JMO.

[Artiste]

Thanks myprivatejack!

... perhaps BBM arrived to our lives when we needed more a movie that treated homosexuality and gay people in general like "normal" people,reflecting their love as the love of the person next door,nothing more...JMO.   

.....
Great to hear that!

[myprivatejack]

Thanks myprivatejack¡
.....
Great to hear that!

Thanks to you too,Artiste¡ Isn't it true at the end? People who love and suffer for love,that aren't killers or,what is worse: mental ills ¡ People who can make mistakes and make other persons unhappy,just like everybody...It's very important to arrive somewhere in the right moment,in the right place...(where have I heard this?).Hugs¡

[Artiste]

Thanks myprivatejack!

What you say is interesting!

I have found that we all take turns to be sick, want to love and/or be in love.

And at other times, it is so great to be  with a lover, partner, buddy, friend(s)...

among gay guys!!

I am a gay man and yearn for that again.

Have you had similar experiences? Did anyone?

Au revoir,
hugs!   May Brokeback Mouintain II, be created!!

[BlissC]

Well I've been reading through the posts in this thread, trying to figure out just why after two years, the impact of the movie on me hasn't lessened (if anything it's got me worse now) and just why I'm so obsessed with the story and the characters, except they're not just characters, because I see Jack and Ennis as real people, and the whole BBM thing. I'm still no nearer to coming up with an answer to the million dollar question - why we've been consumed by every aspect of it, while others maybe merely enjoyed the film, or thought it was good from an artistic point of view.

The movie's a universal story, that's been told many times in literature in many ways over hundreds of years, there are things we can all relate to in the movie/story through the different characters, so in a way I guess it is like a mirror...there are so many reasons we can use to rationalise our obsession, but to be honest, I don't think it's something we will ever pin down - there's just an indescribable something about it that raises it from a great piece of cinematography, a great piece of literature, and that's it's magic (though I did have a chuckle over the idea that Ang had put a single frame subliminal message in some copies of the movie  ). Maybe we aren't meant to know - maybe that would break the magic.

I find myself insanely jealous of the love and passion between Jack and Ennis and I wish I had even a little bit of that passion for myself.  Don't get me wrong - I love my husband immensely ... but the passion of that reunion kiss is unmatched in my relationship!

Maybe there's a bit of that in it for me. A couple of weeks ago I remember getting incredibly mad at Ennis (crazy huh? getting mad at someone who though I think of him as real, isn't a real person) and thinking that if I had a "Jack" I would move heaven and high water to be with them.

Sometimes I also get mad because I'm so obsessed and because I'll happily spend hours reading all things BBM or debating and "wasting" hours when I should be doing RL stuff. Last night I found myself looking at the movie poster I've got on the wall in my spare room "office" and telling Jack and Ennis "It's because of you I'm like this!", and then laughing at myself because it suddenly twigged that yet again I was quoting the story/movie.

Quote from: Penthesilea on June 16, 2006, 07:00:38 pm
Heya, this is a really interesting thing to note.  I'm the exact same way.  No one in my "real life" has any idea that I'm this obsessed with BBM....A few friends know that I love the movie and some even know how many times I've seen it in the theatre, but they don't really know about the whole world of Brokie-dom.  I find it sort of fun to keep it a little secret.

That's kind of how I feel about it. Only my friend Jane who I originally went to see BBM with has any inkling of my brokie-obession, and I feel as though even she thinks I'm slightly crazy sometimes, though I haven't even told her about Bettermost. I kind of like having it as my little secret. I popped in here earlier today though just to lurk in my lunch-break at work, and when I left the office to go down to the library where we have a networked PC we can use in our lunch-break for non-work related browsing, one of the girls I work with asked where I was going. I just said, "Bettermost, Wyoming", and off I went leaving them looking at each other very puzzled, but the girls I share an office with think I'm slightly crazy anyway for practically living online, so they're used to me coming out with strange things and didn't ask for any further clarification of my strange statement. lol!

Just after I got the BBM DVD I remember posting a review on Amazon, and it ended with the line "It gets in your head, and stays there". At that time though I never dreamt that two years later I'd still be just as obsessed, in fact probably more so, and that I'd find myself in a community debating characters' motivations, themes and sub-plots, symbolism and imagery, and every little nuance of the story and movie! (not that I regret finding this place - as I said when I first arrived - it feels like I found home  )

Brokeback sure got me good!

[Artiste]

Thanks BlissC!

  "It gets in your head, and stays there". At that time though I never dreamt that two years later I'd still be just as obsessed, in fact probably more so, and that I'd find myself in a community debating characters' motivations, themes and sub-plots, symbolism and imagery, and every little nuance of the story and movie! (not that I regret finding this place - as I said when I first arrived - it feels like I found home   )
 

....

Wow, likewise for I am too like that. And more! There have been many days and nights that I could not help but think abiut Annie's story and/or the BM movie!! Even these days... too, wonderous ones because of that sotry and film!!

I see it more and more enriching in my own life and in others too! Do you?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Why are we like this?

Sad, as gay men?

Is it because of religions?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[BlissC]

I see it more and more enriching in my own life and in others too! Do you?

I guess it does. It's certainly changed how I view my own life. A combination of BBM and my medical problems have made me realise life's too short for just dreaming of that sweet life, and you just have to get out there and grab it.

Though I'm a Jack-girl in a lot of ways (hopeless romantic, dreamer, talk too much  ) I do have difficulty expressing my true emotions at times, and in the past I've struggled admitting some things, even to myself. Twenty years down the line I don't want to find myself like Ennis, having missed my chance, so I'm trying hard to get over my own hang-ups.

Back when I was in my teens, when I first started having serious health problems, I remember getting upset and saying to my mum "why me?" She said one day maybe I'd be able to help someone else having similar problems, and even if it was just one person, if I could help make their life better or easier, then somehow it'd be worth it (which thankfully I've been able to do through my forum, so I guess my old ma was right! lol!).

I guess that's how I see BBM - if it helps just one person change their views, or re-evaluate their life and make changes for the better, or helps break down someone's prejudices, etc. then it's more than done it's job, and as we know there are so many people just around Bettermost whose lives it's changed for the better in some small way. I can't think of a single other movie/story that's had such a huge impact on so many people.

[Monika]

Sometimes I also get mad because I'm so obsessed and because I'll happily spend hours reading all things BBM or debating and "wasting" hours when I should be doing RL stuff. Last night I found myself looking at the movie poster I've got on the wall in my spare room "office" and telling Jack and Ennis "It's because of you I'm like this!", and then laughing at myself because it suddenly twigged that yet again I was quoting the story/movie.

thanks for sharing

Me to sometimes feel like I should think more about RL things, but then...I´m happy. I´m happy with my obsessions. I have gotten to know so many people through them, I´ve travelled places I never thought I´d go and my god, I laugh and smile and cry so much. I guess, somehow, obessions are my RL.


Then to the million dollar question: why are we like this.

I think that questions probably has been answered by others on this thread. I like the explanations about BBM being sort of a mirror.

For myself, I think, what lies in the heart of my obsession for BBM, is its message about missed opportunities. I don´t want to miss out like Ennis and Jack did. I want to spend my life doing whatever it is I wanna do and not live my life as others expect me to.

[Artiste]

Thanks buffymon!

I like your word: mirroir !!

We do see ourselves in Annie's story/BM movie!!

Maybe it like a fairy tale??

Hugs!

[BlissC]

Me to sometimes feel like I should think more about RL things, but then...I´m happy. I´m happy with my obsessions. I have gotten to know so many people through them, I´ve travelled places I never thought I´d go and my god, I laugh and smile and cry so much. I guess, somehow, obessions are my RL.

Me too. My closest friends are friends I've met online, and I've travelled all over the country meeting up with them. A couple of my friends even ended up getting married after they met for the first time in RL when they came to visit me. I've got friends all over the world, including some very good friends who know more about me than people I see every day.

When I went to my friends' wedding I also met up with another friend, who we all knew from the forum we all first met on. When I got to the hotel I just flung my stuff in my room and headed over to the bar where he said he'd meet me. I'd never physically met him before, but I recognised him instantly, and we spent the next four hours sitting and talking and laughing as though we'd only seen each other the previous week. As we said at the time, we were friends in every sense of the word - didn't make any difference that we'd never seen each other before - that was just superficial.

For myself, I think, what lies in the heart of my obsession for BBM, is its message about missed opportunities. I don´t want to miss out like Ennis and Jack did. I want to spend my life doing whatever it is I wanna do and not live my life as others expect me to.

Same here. Life's too short for "what ifs" and "what might have beens" - you've just got to get on out there and do it!

[Artiste]

Thanks Bliss!

Great wonderful post!!

HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY Easter and day everyday!!
Enjoy: Why are we like this? - so we can enjoy life more and better!!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Monika]

When I went to my friends' wedding I also met up with another friend, who we all knew from the forum we all first met on. When I got to the hotel I just flung my stuff in my room and headed over to the bar where he said he'd meet me. I'd never physically met him before, but I recognised him instantly, and we spent the next four hours sitting and talking and laughing as though we'd only seen each other the previous week. As we said at the time, we were friends in every sense of the word - didn't make any difference that we'd never seen each other before - that was just superficial.

that´s great to hear. I´m glad that you too have had good experiences. Yeah, some say that Internet isolates people but the case often is quite the opposite.

[BlissC]

Very much the opposite with me - every day I get to "meet" new people who I'd never get to meet if it wasn't for the internet - people with alsorts of interests and experiences - some the same as me, some not. As an added bonus I sometimes get to meet them in RL too.

When I first found BetterMost I was still feeling quite low and confused about how "just" a film could affect me so much, even after two years, probably more so after two years. My first post here I said "It feels like I've found home". For the first time in two years I can talk openly about my feelings about BBM without anyone laughing at me, or thinking I must be crazy to feel like this. I feel accepted and I can be myself and I don't have to hide that part of me away. That means a hell of a lot.

[BlissC]

Enjoy: Why are we like this? - so we can enjoy life more and better!!

That's true, Artiste!

My mum always used to tell me that everything happens for a reason. The day I first went to the cinema there was a reason I ended up seeing BBM and not whatever else was showing on the next screen, and I'm in a better place because of it. 

[Artiste]

That is great Bliss!


Did you know that one member here, his grand-mother brought him (a gay young man) out of town and they BOTH saw the BM movie??


So they would be safe??

At least, they enjoy life!!  Why-are-we-like-this ? Hiding ? Or trying to be safe? Or wanting a better life?

Hugs!

[BlissC]

Why-are-we-like-this ? Hiding ? Or trying to be safe? Or wanting a better life?

Shit! I'm getting quite emotional now! I've been reading some of the 'why are we like this?' posts again, and Heath tributes, and the thread about the characters becoming "real" to Annie, and to us. Brokeback got me good again. 

I don't think we're really hiding - like other forums BetterMost is out there on the web for anyone to see, but I do feel a palpable sense of 'banding together'. There's safety in numbers. We feel safe here to share our experiences, voice our opinions, admit our fears and our hopes. We can collect here without fear of being ridiculed for our beliefs and our dreams. No-one's going to judge us as crazy, or laugh at us for thinking that Jack and Ennis are real, because they're as real to us as we all are to each other, to our families and friends. Over recent days we've discussed what being a Brokie is, and though for each of us it's probably something slightly different, the story and the film and being a Brokie has changed our lives, and changed them for the better. I guess part of it's wanting to share that better life with other Brokies.

As Brokies what we all have in common is a belief in the messages of the story/film, messages that have made our lives better, messages that have opened our eyes to what's important and the values those instill in us. Maybe one day we won't need to 'hide' in places like BM, and the world will be more accepting, both of Brokies and gay men, and other groups of people who are oppressed. We can't change the world overnight, but we'll have a damned good try! In the meantime we have each other, and we can gain strength from each other. We have to believe that sweet life is within our grasp.

[Artiste]

Wonderfully said:
we all have in common is a belief in the messages of the story/film, messages that have made our lives better, messages that have opened our eyes to what's important and the values those instill in us. Maybe one day we won't need to 'hide' in places like BM, and the world will be more accepting, both of Brokies and gay men, and other groups of people who are oppressed. We can't change the world overnight, but we'll have a damned good try! In the meantime we have each other, and we can gain strength from each other. We have to believe that sweet life is within our grasp.
.............

Thanks bliss!

HAPPY HAPPY  EASTER Bliss!!

[Monika]

We have to believe that sweet life is within our grasp.

thank you, that´s beautifully put.

[BlissC]

Maybe I should make that my new sig.

[Artiste]

Thanks bliss!

I love this:
We can't change the world overnight, but we'll have a damned good try! In the meantime we have each other, and we can gain strength from each other. We have to believe that sweet life is within our grasp. 


.......

Bliss, at least, everyone can try!!

Like you say...

hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks buffymon!

You say:
... some say that Internet isolates people but the case often is quite the opposite.

Buffymon: may I say: Right! Some unfortunately, try to destroy another person via the internet, used as a weapon!

........

Fortunately, there are good persons who can help another who is being attacked by such weapon! By kindness, understanding, help...

.........

Why are we like this?  ... is a good question.

Hugs!

[Monika]

Thanks buffymon!

You say:
... some say that Internet isolates people but the case often is quite the opposite.

Buffymon: may I say: Right! Some unfortunately, try to destroy another person via the internet, used as a weapon!

........

Fortunately, there are good persons who can help another who is being attacked by such weapon! By kindness, understanding, help...

.........

Why are we like this?  ... is a good question.

Hugs!

yeah you are right about Internet being a double edged sword. But it´s just like everything else. You can use just about anything for good or bad purposes.
For me, the Internet  has brought a lot o good things.

[Artiste]

Thanks buffymon!

Glad that the internet helps you. Am happy too to get your communications, always!!

Likewise, the internet has given me happiness!

Hope!

And saved my life... too!

Why are we like this? ... still a puzzle to me!!

To you too??

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Happily awaiting for that much more !!

Thanks !! And to all too!!

Hugs!! More is great, as we solve : Why are we like this? -  happily!!

[optom3]

Happily awaiting for that much more !!

Thanks !! And to all too!!

Hugs!! More is great, as we solve : Why are we like this? -  happily!!

Is it not emapathy that makes us all like this.We feel empathy for the characters,and then for each other,here, as we learn more of each other.For surely those not of an empathetic nature, would not have been so affected by the film,and therefore would not have been driven to find like souls at BetterMost.It is the human condition to want to be surrounded by like minded people.It gives us comfort.It also lessens the sense of isolation and bewilderment.

We enter and leave this life alone.We have no control over that. So in between the two, where we do have some semblance of control, is it not natural to want to spend as much time as possible not alone, and if at all feasible with those of a similar nature.Certainly for me it is.

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup Fiona (optom)!!

You say:
It is the human condition to want to be surrounded by like minded people.It gives us comfort.It also lessens the sense of isolation and bewilderment.



...

Fiona: that is why I saw Annie's movie/story, in order to seek others like I am!! I love it when I can reach another gay person, and that includes straights who accept gays too!!

I still wonder:
Why are we like this? ... in different ways !! ??

Hugs! P.S. Oh! A wonderful neighbour came to-day! Mother says that neighbour's eye are getting very much white! What doe sthat mean?

[optom3]

Merci beaucoup Fiona (optom)!!

You say:
It is the human condition to want to be surrounded by like minded people.It gives us comfort.It also lessens the sense of isolation and bewilderment.



...

Fiona: that is why I saw Annie's movie/story, in order to seek others like I am!! I love it when I can reach another gay person, and that includes straights who accept gays too!!

I still wonder:
Why are we like this? ... in different ways !! ??

Hugs! P.S. Oh! A wonderful neighbour came to-day! Mother says that neighbour's eye are getting very much white! What doe sthat mean?

Depends which part of the eye.If the pupil (black centre)is becomming white,it normally indicates cataract.That would usually be in an older person.If there is a faint white ring just inside the outer edge of the iris,(coloured part)that indictes high cholesterol levels.That can be from age 35ish onwards.If the white of the eyes is very white,the person is using eydrops to constrict the blood vesels and make the white look very bright.
Oh my goodness where do these posts lead.!!!
As for why are we like this in different ways,I still think it is empathy.If you are gay,you automatically feel empathy for the plight of Ennis and Jack.If you are straight,then you can still feel empathy.This can be direct, or indirect,because you have suffered some other form of "forbidden" love yourself,or persecution and marginalisation,due to race,religion,even looks e.g overweight.
How many of us have had to endure the unfair judging by others.When I wa at school,I was bullied simply becuse I wa so small.Later,my love mess automatically led to me relating directly to the film.
Perhaps the only ones who are "not like this" are those who so far in life have done the judging,on what ever level.They set themselves above us other mere mortals.They moralise and preach,convinced of their righteousness.I have no time for them.No one is perfect,absoloutely no one.
By taking the moral high ground,they are in fact acting a judge and jury.To judge is arrogant, as it presumes your view is the only one.Arrogance is in apposition with empathy,and is really a weakness.Which is curious as the arrogant,by virtue of being so would argue that they were strong!!!! What a conundrum.To empathise is to be strong,as to do so you have to admit your own weaknesses,and you have to be strong of character to admit to having some weakneses.
To be arrogant is weak as you do not have the moral courage to admit to any weakness.
So I say again it is all down to empathy on some level.

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup Fiona (optom)!

Yes, the neighbour and mother are both in their 80's and have cataract!!
So they wait for operations??
............

Concerning, Why are we like this?, I guess we, gay men, are afraid, because of bullies ?

You thought of that!

Hugs! HUGS!

[optom3]

Merci beaucoup Fiona (optom)!

Yes, the neighbour and mother are both in their 80's and have cataract!!
So they wait for operations??
............

Concerning, Why are we like this?, I guess we, gay men, are afraid, because of bullies ?

You thought of that!

Hugs! HUGS!

Quick reply as it is my turn for the Jack dream tonight!!!! Cataract surgery is very quick operation,done in the U.K under local anaesthetic,takes about 15 mins.Improvement in vision is pretty well instant,and in most cases the incision now is so tiny there is no need for stitches,It heals itself.They use a laser to melt the old lens with the cataract in it,then put a tiny probe in through tiny incision and suck it out,The new lens implant is folded so it fits back in through the incision,Job done.distance vision is usually perfect  some may need reading glases,some not.Hope this helps.tell your mom it is nothing at all to worry about.The thing I heard most often was I wish I had done it ages ago.
take care,and remember Jack is mine tonight !!!!!!

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup Fiona!! (optom)

I will tell mother that and my great lady neighbour!!  But why do they have to wait for such an operation?? - ??
Pourquoi?

...........

Back to: Why are we like this ??    Why indeed??  I just just reading a note from a lady she posted to me last  year. She wondered why too??

She says:
Yes, I think some gay men don't accept their homosexuality!

Fiona, more later.

For now, that is interesting what she says?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

After over three years of the Brokie experience, it seems worthwhile to reconsider this now age-old question.


So, I'll take a serious stab at the question.  The more I think about it, the more I think BBM touched those of us who are hardcore Brokies in some way that resonates or resonated with some serious issue that we needed to or still need to resolve in our own lives.  I don't think it is always an absolutely direct relationship to the literal themes or storylines with in the movie/story.  It seems to me that many serious Brokies have been or still are looking for some kind of major change or adjustment in their own lives.  The way BBM spoke to or continues to speak to that need for change or reevaluation is certainly completely unique for everyone who has experienced this.

[Monika]

After over three years of the Brokie experience, it seems worthwhile to reconsider this now age-old question.


So, I'll take a serious stab at the question.  The more I think about it, the more I think BBM touched those of us who are hardcore Brokies in some way that resonates or resonated with some serious issue that we needed to or still need to resolve in our own lives.  I don't think it is always an absolutely direct relationship to the literal themes or storylines with in the movie/story.  It seems to me that many serious Brokies have been or still are looking for some kind of major change or adjustment in their own lives.  The way BBM spoke to or continues to speak to that need for change or reevaluation is certainly completely unique for everyone who has experienced this.

Interesting thread.

I agree, Amanda. I think this is why fiction is such a big part of our lives. Somehow fiction often helps us to look at our own lives and if not change things, at least re-evaluate some aspects of it. ¨

I don´t know quite yet what it is about BBM that I respond to so much, but I´ll keep on looking. I have been looking for a little over a year now and I´ll figure it out someday, I bet.

[Katie77]

I think when this question was first asked, it was in the beginning of most our experience of Brokeback Mountain.

How many of us thought we were a little bit crazy for going so over the top over a movie? How many of us, thought we were the only ones going through it, until we found sites like Bettermost? How many of us thought it was just a phase we were going through and we would get over it?

How many of us asked......"Why are we like this?"

Well, I guess after three years, most of us have stopped asking. We just ACCEPT that we are spirtually connected to the movie, to the characters, to the story. We dont feel the need to justify it anymore, nor the need to hide it from our family and friends, because now they too, accept it.

It is as much a part of us, as getting up in the morning, and going to bed at night, its just there.

We continue to go about our normal life, going to work, mixing with family, socializing with friends, we know, and they know that we are Brokeback Mountain obsessed, that is part of our makeup and our character now, and I have no doubt that it will be, for the rest of our lives.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Buffy and Katie!   I agree with what both of you said here.

Well, I guess after three years, most of us have stopped asking. We just ACCEPT that we are spirtually connected to the movie, to the characters, to the story. We dont feel the need to justify it anymore, nor the need to hide it from our family and friends, because now they too, accept it.

Although, for me, the extent of my Brokie-ness is still pretty much secret to most of my family, friends and colleagues.  Most of them know that I like the movie, but none of them (that I know of) are aware of the Brokie events I've participated in or the level of my daily activity at BetterMost and thinking about Brokeback related things.  I still think that most of the folks in my normal, daily life wouldn't understand at all.

[Marge_Innavera]

After over three years of the Brokie experience, it seems worthwhile to reconsider this now age-old question.


So, I'll take a serious stab at the question.  The more I think about it, the more I think BBM touched those of us who are hardcore Brokies in some way that resonates or resonated with some serious issue that we needed to or still need to resolve in our own lives.  I don't think it is always an absolutely direct relationship to the literal themes or storylines with in the movie/story.  It seems to me that many serious Brokies have been or still are looking for some kind of major change or adjustment in their own lives.  The way BBM spoke to or continues to speak to that need for change or reevaluation is certainly completely unique for everyone who has experienced this.

Sorry if this sounds so academic, but I think there are archetypes in both the ss and movie that impact people on a level well below a superficial viewing of a movie you like. There were so many of us that identified with the story and characters but would seem to have so little in common with them in terms of gender, sexual orientation, geography social class or anything else.

It's been difficult for me to get people in my life to understand about it -- most of them don't even know.

[serious crayons]

Sorry if this sounds so academic, but I think there are archetypes in both the ss and movie that impact people on a level well below a superficial viewing of a movie you like. There were so many of us that identified with the story and characters but would seem to have so little in common with them in terms of gender, sexual orientation, geography social class or anything else.

It's been difficult for me to get people in my life to understand about it -- most of them don't even know.

But still, it's mysterious. Most of the people in my life don't understand it, either. Many, of course, haven't bothered to see the movie. But even among those who do, ours is clearly not a universal reaction.

I think you're right, Marge, about the archetypes and the deep impact. I think it's fairly easy to understand why this movie is more powerful than most good movies. But it's harder to explain why this movie doesn't hold that same power on everybody who sees it (even if they're not homophobic).

[Front-Ranger]

I agree about the archetype. The one that most closely resembles Brokeback Mountain to me is that of the young person at the threshhold of adulthood on whom a spell is cast so they fall into a deep trance or sleep but are awakened by the transforming power of love.

We all feel that there's a possibility we might be "rescued" from our humdrum existance by love or that we might experience again the rush of exuberance that we did in youth.

[optom3]

For me the connection was and still is, that of a wrong turning made in my life. It is also the dreadful realisation that life has moved on way too far now, to ever turn round again.

It is  about deluding myself that once having found love, albeit at a less than opportune time, that love could ever just cease.

Do we cease to love someone who has died, I think not.Yet in my befuddled brain, I thought I could just up and walk away.

Another connection is that of a parent, now desperate for her children not to repeat the mistakes she has made.

The brother of my love and I do mean my love, once implored, don't do this. He had lost his partner and great love to AIDS. He berated me saying, how can you walk away from this, when I would give anything to have my lover back. He was nonplussed by my stupidity. He was also unfortunately, quite right.

So I watch BBM and grieve on many levels, particularly when I see that my actions, although guided by a desire to do the right thing, have in actual fact, left casualties on route.

It is of paramount importance to me that my children find love and hang on to it. At least then I will feel some happy resolution has come from my sacrifice. To think that I may have given up so much and for no good to ensue, would be beyond bearable.

BBM continues to resonate with me on so many levels that it is now an integral part of me. I can talk to no one about it, (apart from here at Bettermost) as to do so would hurt too many people.So I nurse my personal grief and hope for the, it is better to have loved and lost, to actually resonate truthfully with me. So far that has proved to be  elusive, as has any sustained  peace of mind.

So I find myself much as Ennis, hanging on to dreams to warm me through the day.

[twistedude]

I saw Brokeback on December 26, 2005.  And then 29 more times in the theater. And I have the mother of all DVDs.

..which I haven't watched for a year. Fiction? That was then; this is now.

Like other people who have posted on this thread--my reasons (which I've thought and thought, and THOUGHT about)--are a little different from everyone else's. Read them! They are NOT all the same!

I fell in love with the RELATIONSHIP between the two men. SO: Had I ever done this before? Sorta. As young girl, if I had a crush on a boy, and he had a girl friend--I would fall in love with the relationship between the two of them. Not wildly, but mildly. Why? I don't know.

I was shy, and noisy (a terrible combination), and usually had only 1, or sometimes 2 good friends.  I've had two great loves in my life (it's so nice to have had two, instead of just one! So I know it's possible...). I married for like, not for love. "Not for me flows that spring"? Why? I don't know.

When I was watching the previews of Brokeback, when Jack says "I wish I could quit you," I had never heard anyone use that tone of voice before. It pierced my heart. Why? I don't know.

There are probably millions (through time) of gay people out there, fictional and real, who 'wish they could quit" someone.  I wish they'd get on the same elevator with the person they love,  and stay there, and not quit. Why is this so important to me? I don't know.

Helpful, wasn't I?

My first boyfriend, at 18 (photo taken by me, when i was 15...in 1950).

[Front-Ranger]

It's nice to see you here, friend!

Your portrait of your bf is lovely! I'm so glad you still have it to cherish. Also I loved your comment, "I wish they'd get on the same elevator with the person they love,  and stay there, and not quit."

At the very primitive level, we are all animals at heart with a need for survival, which begets fear. And fear creates a world of many things. But the need for survival also begets the need to come together and hold and comfort each other, to love and encourage, and to ensure the survival of our species. And that creates a world of many things too. I imagine these two worlds flowing and shifting together, just like the two hemispheres of your late husband's ring.

[Brokebacklove4ever]

You know......

I really don't have any insight into this. All I can say is, I still think about Jack and Ennis all the freakin' time. I can now entertain other thoughts but even then, subconsciously I'm thinking of our boys. And you know what, I totally relate about them feeling not like movie characters but close, real-life friends.

Whenever I remember at night, I'll even say "Goodnight, Jack. Goodnight, Ennis."   

you know u are about to make me cry bbm_stitchbuffyfan,.. shame on you,.. I caught myself doing this too a few nights ago. Saying goodnight to our boys as I went to sleep.

[Brokebacklove4ever]

 After thinking about this very topic for a few days, just living my life, but thinking. BBM was a movie about love, pure and simple. Love in its MOST brutal and unfiltered form. No movie has ever shown love in this light, without the glamor,or props, just two human being struggling to love each other in Gods beautiful surroundings. Its a very simple movie full of uncomplicated beauty that resonates with the primal need in all of us to love, and be loved. Thats just the basics of the backdrop, then there is Jack And Ennis. Two lovable men that found a common bond that we can all relate to at one point and time in our lives. I think because both men are so lovable, and their love story so tragic, we continue to WANT FOR THEM TO BE TOGETHER and live happily ever after. While watching this movie, we literally watch the boys fall in love,and its a wonderful thing to witness. I could go on and on, but I just put the DVD in, and its time to watch the boys,.....fall in love all over again. I have to admit,sometimes I put the DVD in,and hear that first cord of that guitar, and tears come to my eyes. I don't know why,.....its very weird, but this movie simply gut-punches me. i guess that is something that I will never be able to explain.

Be good to yourself

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Six years now, and not a day goes by that thoughts of Brokeback Mountain do not cross my mind.

Last night it occurred to me that Proulx's short story is probably, in my 40+ years of reading, the most complete treatment of the inarticulate I have ever read.

[Meryl]

Six years now, and not a day goes by that thoughts of Brokeback Mountain do not cross my mind.

Last night it occurred to me that Proulx's short story is probably, in my 40+ years of reading, the most complete treatment of the inarticulate I have ever read.

So true, Tru.  It's like music on the page.

[Lynne]

Six years now, and not a day goes by that thoughts of Brokeback Mountain do not cross my mind.

Last night it occurred to me that Proulx's short story is probably, in my 40+ years of reading, the most complete treatment of the inarticulate I have ever read.

That is an excellent way to put it, Truman.  And you're right, not a day goes by...

[coffeedrinkintexan]

Zombie thread alert!  

I have spent the better part of four months trying to figure out exactly why Brokeback got me so good. (Viewed in October 2014 for the first time.) I've seen it I don't know how many times, read the story just as much, devoured forum threads, lost sleep....and I don't know that I'm any closer to figuring out why it has permeated what seems like every cell of my being.

Like so many people here, Jack and Ennis are real people to me. I think about them like they are my friends. I dream about them. I write about them. I think about this story every hour of every day. No movie has ever done this to me. I'm not even an avid moviegoer.

I've read every response here, and I'm not sure I'm any closer to an answer about why *I'm* like this over Brokeback. Not trying to invalidate everyone else's experience or answers, just that I haven't been able to figure it out for myself.

It has changed me significantly in two ways:
1) I have a good husband and I know it. He's not perfect (he doesn't like BBM, for one) and we have our squabbles but he works hard, tries to understand me, and is a good father to our kids. I'd been taking him for granted for a long time when I first saw BBM. This movie made me realize that I can't do that. He and I don't have the OMG-see-stars kind of love that Jack and Ennis had, but I don't know that many people are lucky enough to get that big love...ever. And what I have is pretty damn good. I can't take that for granted so I became more intentional about loving him.

2) I became more vocal in my support of gay rights and marriage equality. Been an ally for a while but was a bit timid about expressing it openly.....I live in a red state and most of my friends at church/work still think being gay is wrong, unnatural, etc. Watching Jack and Ennis struggle with their relationship and their very selves, wanting so much to love openly and feeling it forbidden, it made me so angry. Each of them died a little at a time, by inches, suffocating under the weight they carried. Watching that was infuriating. So I kind of 'came out' as an unashamed ally, the opinions of others be damned. (*Please understand: I don't mean to compare this in ANY way with what it must be like to come out as gay, trans, or bisexual. That is in a completely different league and takes far more courage. You guys are my heroes.*) If I can be a safe place for some struggling kid to land, then I want to be that. Whether it's one of my kids, one of their friends, one of my friends, or one of my patients, it doesn't matter. But I don't want any two people to have to suffer like these sweet boys did. I just want to hug them both, take them  home with me, and let them live their sweet life together, protected from a hateful world. It kills me every day to think it will never happen for them. Sweet beautiful Jack and sweet beautiful Ennis. I love them so much it hurts.

[CellarDweller]

I've often thought that the ones who 'got it' so something of themselves on the screen, and it resonated with them.  Whether it was Jack and Ennis' struggle, their emotions, feeling alone or like an outsider.....something in the film touched them.

[Front-Ranger]

I came to relate, particularly to Jack, but at the beginning I just saw it as a supreme love story. And with star-crossed lovers. Love is more achingly romantic when it is thwarted, don't you think?

I went to Wikipedia to define "star-crossed" and, yup, there were our boys!

With film or within modern novels and books, such star-crossed couples as Jack Dawson and Rose DeWitt Bukater from Titanic, Landon Carter and Jamie Sullivan from "A Walk to Remember", Anakin Skywalker and Padmé Amidala from the Star Wars saga, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist from Brokeback Mountain, and Jake and Neytiri from Avatar have been included.[19][20][21][22][23] In The Hunger Games, Katniss Everdeen and Peeta Mellark are often called "The Star Crossed Lovers from District 12" because of their romance while in the Hunger Games, where only one can survive.

[Penthesilea]

I went to Wikipedia to define "star-crossed" and, yup, there were our boys!

With film or within modern novels and books, such star-crossed couples as Jack Dawson and Rose DeWitt Bukater from Titanic, Landon Carter and Jamie Sullivan from "A Walk to Remember", Anakin Skywalker and Padmé Amidala from the Star Wars saga, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist from Brokeback Mountain, and Jake and Neytiri from Avatar have been included.[19][20][21][22][23] In The Hunger Games, Katniss Everdeen and Peeta Mellark are often called "The Star Crossed Lovers from District 12" because of their romance while in the Hunger Games, where only one can survive.

Love to see this!