At what moment in BBM did you realize that they were falling in love?

[rtprod]

Though I could feel the attraction building before this, for me, it's when Ennis looks up to the mountainside while standing in the stream.  The score and Ledger's expression inform all we need to know.   

[Ellemeno]

Hm, I will have to go watch it again.  Pretty much each time I see it, it gets sooner and sooner.

[Meryl]

When Jack falls over after the rodeo whoop and holler and they both laugh and Ennis says "I think my Dad was right." 

[Überlibran]

In the book, I knew Ennis was falling hard when he was riding out back to the sheep after an evening of conversation with Jack,  feeling he could 'paw the white out of the moon'. Man, I loved that line.

[dmmb_Mandy]

Hmm..In the movie, I think I first started to really feel their connection when Ennis gets back after the bear incident.

[vkm91941]

I felt it was that scene where Ennis is talking away and Jack give him that little smile and says that's the most I heard you talk all month, and Ennis offers that's the most I've talked all year and he give Jack that shy little smile.  It opens his face like a flower opening to the sun.  I think that's the moment when they first fall in love.

[Ellemeno]

I love that moment too, Victoria.  I think their looks say, "I know you and trust you."  "I know you and trust you too."

[RouxB]

I'm gonna go with that one as well. The first sign of Ennis starting to trust Jack.

[Nicole]

I felt it was that scene where Ennis is talking away and Jack give him that little smile and says that's the most I heard you talk all month, and Ennis offers that's the most I've talked all year and he give Jack that shy little smile.  It opens his face like a flower opening to the sun.  I think that's the moment when they first fall in love.

Ditto.

[EnnisDelMar]

Ditto²

[Flashframe777]

When Ennis says his dad thought all rodeo riders were "f*ck ups", then gives Jack sly googly eyes.

[Front-Ranger]

Call me a hopeless romantic, but I've experienced love at first sight and so that's my answer.

[DeeDee]

Call me a hopeless romantic, but I've experienced love at first sight and so that's my answer.

I think for Jack it was definately love at first sight.  But for Ennis, I think it wasn't until they were leaving, that he realized he love him....sigh.

[amh]

Here's a new one, and I realize it's post-consummation but it's where I really started to see their love relationship solidify:

For me, it's after they were done untangling them Chilean sheep outta theirs, when they were riding off and Ennis tells Jack he'll run them sheep off again if he didn't quiet down. 

The way Ennis grins at Jack when he delivers this line is so freaking cute, and Jack barely acknowledges it, he just keeps playing his harmonica.  And they ride on.  They're like an old married couple in love with each other they hardly have to speak any words, and don't even have to touch, to show affection.

[ednbarby]

I think Ennis *started* to fall in the "that's the most I've spoke in a year" scene, too.  That wasn't in the short story, though.  There I'd say it was when, as someone else said, he was riding back to the sheep after talking and drinking for hours with Jack and thought he'd never had such a good time - felt he could paw the white out of the moon (I love that line, too).

I think it started for Jack the moment he first laid eyes on Ennis.  I love how when they're in Aguirre's office, Jack steals a *very* long look at Ennis while Aguirre is talking to him.  Of course he steals a couple of other long looks outside - most notably in the side-view mirror (LOVE that one).  Some might say that's just attraction, but I think you can know you're supposed to be with someone just by looking at them.

[ednbarby]

Ann Marie - I do love how they're like an old married couple, too, really the whole time on Brokeback.  Especially in the scene after Ennis has "come up on a bear."  Every time I see Jack fuming away with the whiskey bottle, then getting *that look* when he finally shows up, then laying into him with something like "I come back here, hungry as hell, no fire, you're nowhere to be found, and there's nothin but beans."  Hell, I've about said those words a couple of times to my husband.

[Sheyne]

 

I've been sitting here, giggling away reading this thread - I LOVE this sort of talk!!!  Its the sorta stuff I'm yearning to chat about with people everyday but nobody around me is the slightest bit interested!  That's why I'm so buzzing, cause Ray and I are off to see the movie together and we can talk about it afterwards..

I agree with Victoria that the "hell that's the most I've spoke in a year" scene is probably the clincher for Ennis.  I love that after he says that line, he can't stop himself from smiling even though he probably wants to. Jack, I reckon, was already in love by this point and he can't stop himself from smiling either, as Ennis starts to open up and talk - even though what Ennis is saying is really nothing to smile ABOUT. But it was like this little victorious smirk from Jack, like "at last, I got him".

Jack quite obviously fell in lust, at least, the moment he saw him. That stare while he's leaning against the truck.. phew.. and I do love the furtive little glances in Aguirre's office. 

[j.U.d.E.]

Pretty much each time I see it, it gets sooner and sooner.

SAME HERE!!     

But it's just WE who know! Ennis and Jack don't seem to realize that they fell in love the very first time they meet.... (eh, not sure which tenses to use here..)     

~ j U d E

[starboardlight]

two interpretations of the question, I think.

1. When did I realize they were falling in love? It didn't occur to me until Water Walking Jesus that they were falling in love.

2. When do I think they fell in love? I think they started to fall in love at the "What?" "That's the most you've said in two weeks."

[two_bloody_shirts]

I felt it was that scene where Ennis is talking away and Jack give him that little smile and says that's the most I heard you talk all month, and Ennis offers that's the most I've talked all year and he give Jack that shy little smile.  It opens his face like a flower opening to the sun.  I think that's the moment when they first fall in love.

I also noticed in that scene, after Ennis says, "I mean, what's the point of ridin' some peice'a stock for eight seconds?", and then Jack, "Money's a good point," Ennis then says, "Sure enough, if you don't get stomped winnin' it," he looks at Jack closely for several moments, both concerned and amused, a quick smile and another peircing look, then turns to watch Jack put his boot next to the flame of the fire.  That particular moment caught my attention. 

Although, I'd have to say that entire scene makes very obvious the affection they have for each other.  They care about each other so much and it shows. 

[ednbarby]

Whoa - wait a minute.  This just occurred to me - early on on Brokeback, when Jack is going off to the sheep and is obviously pissed that he even has to do that alone and obviously annoyed that the mare has just reared and nearly thrown him, and he and Ennis exchange glances - first Jack, with sort of a "Don't EVEN go there" look, and Ennis trying to look innocent, like he really wasn't thinking "I told you about that mare..."  Then Jack rides off, and Ennis strains to take a good, hard look at him.

That's IT.

[delalluvia]

The fireside after the bear incident is definitely when Jack fell in love if he wasn't before.  He's nervous, drinking, alone, wondering what the hell happened to Ennis, then he shows up late, very late.

Jack lets loose of all his anxiety and fear by berating Ennis, just to be struck by his bloody battered friend.  His mood instantly shifts and he moves into caring mode.  He wants to care for Ennis and make him better, offering water, whiskey and an attempt at first aid.

Notice when Jack starts to dab at Ennis' head with the wet bandana.  Ennis didn't act irritated or angry or embarrassed and snatched it out of his hand - which is what I expected - instead he simply takes it from Jack.

I think Ennis fell in love after the Chilean sheep mixup.  All day, cutting sheep, listening to Jack bitch and moan about Aguirre and the damned paint brands, in a very comforting predictable fashion, it must have been music to his ears like the harmonic wasn't.

IMO anyway.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I felt it was that scene where Ennis is talking away and Jack give him that little smile and says that's the most I heard you talk all month, and Ennis offers that's the most I've talked all year and he give Jack that shy little smile.  It opens his face like a flower opening to the sun.  I think that's the moment when they first fall in love.

Victoria, that's a beautiful way to describe Ennis's face in that scene!
Jeff

[j.U.d.E.]

I don't know if it's the moment where Ennis falls in love or just realizes something about his feelings towards Jack, but I think it must mean something when after the first tent scene, Ennis coming back (after disappearing into the mountains and not even talking to Jack) he has the guts to just go and stand next to Jack (the "this is nobody's business but ours" - scene). I mean, if he had been disgusted or horrified or completely livid and in total denial about the first tent events, he could have just left and gone home or reported it to Aguirre (in order not to lose his pay) or something. I mean the fact that he is so completely calm about it, all of a sudden - there is the "I'm not queer" "Me neither" dialogue, but I have an impression that they both know that it's a façade for both of them. And we all know the 2nd tent scene follows right after that!

~ j U d E

[Front-Ranger]

Just to elaborate on my earlier post, I think Ennis was blown away by Jack from the very 1st moment he laid eyes on him. The clue is that when Jack started to walk towards him, he lowered his head and hid his eyes under his hat. Ennis was rather shy, very lonely, and full of fears and neuroses so it is hard to read him, but I think he was amazed by this self-assured, friendly young man who not only possessed a lighter but also a truck and a silver rodeo belt buckle. He was so flummoxed he had to be reminded to give his last name when they introduced each other.

Then, when Jack suggested they go to a bar, Ennis didn't even walk beside Jack, he walked behind. He was further impressed by Jack's rodeo experience and knowledge of the job from having worked on the mtn the previous summer. Jack got him to open up about himself which few people had done before and when he told Jack a few details, Jack was empathetic, which also opened Ennis' eyes. Another thing that the film doesn't show but you have to imagine is the electricity between them. This is conveyed not only by what they did--sneaking looks at each other, making a big show of tying knots and mastering horses--but also what they didn't do--hiding behind their hat brims, carefully not looking at or touching each other.

[j.U.d.E.]

This is conveyed not only by what they did--[..]-but also what they didn't do--hiding behind their hat brims, carefully not looking at or touching each other.

Do you have an example?

~ j U d E

[starboardlight]

Just to elaborate on my earlier post, I think Ennis was blown away by Jack from the very 1st moment he laid eyes on him. The clue is that when Jack started to walk towards him, he lowered his head and hid his eyes under his hat.

Yeah, I think so too. His reaction is exactly the reaction I have to guys I really like. For some weird reason, I can't look at them directly.

[Front-Ranger]

Not looking at example: The prime one is where Ennis is washing and Jack is peeling potatoes, but there are several others, such as when they're both sitting by the fire and they are either staring at the fire or at the whiskey bottle. Not touching each other: One scene that didn't make it into the movie was when they spent the night in Jack's truck before going up the mountain. The screenplay says that Jack slept in the driver's seat while Ennis was awake in the passenger seat, looking very uncomfortable. Also, Jack pours whiskey into Ennis' cup rather than just handing him the bottle. When they do touch, it's exagerated as if there is some pent-up energy. Thus, Jack practically knocks Ennis over after he shoots the deer and Ennis obliges by then knocking Jack over. Of course, there's the tussle scene at the end of the mountain part, where Ennis realizes he's in over his head and slugs Jack.

[Becky]

Surely the question should be when did you realise you were falling in love with them? 

[starboardlight]

Surely the question should be when did you realise you were falling in love with them? 

my answer to that would be when I was lying in bed at 5am crying convulsively for the boys.

[Lumière]

"Sure enough, if you don't get stomped winnin' it," he looks at Jack closely for several moments, both concerned and amused, a quick smile and another peircing look, then turns to watch Jack put his boot next to the flame of the fire. 

Whenever I watch that scene, I can't get over Jack's boot so close to the fire, I get freaked it'd catch fire or something!   Only after a few viewings could I really start focussing on J & E in that scene, not the dang boot!

Back to the OP, I think by the 'Water walking Jesus' scene, they were already walking down the path to LOVE!  I think Jack was in love by then, Ennis knew that there was something different and special about this new buddy of his...I think he must've entertained some 'sexy thoughts' of Jack as well because he gave in to him in the tent on that cold night.  He was freaked out, yes, but he knew he wanted it..and he went for it!

I was definitely certain they were in love when they were told to 'bring 'em down'.  It was as plain as the nose on Aguirre's face that they were in love  ...so heart-breaking!

[ednbarby]

Just to elaborate on my earlier post, I think Ennis was blown away by Jack from the very 1st moment he laid eyes on him. The clue is that when Jack started to walk towards him, he lowered his head and hid his eyes under his hat. Ennis was rather shy, very lonely, and full of fears and neuroses so it is hard to read him, but I think he was amazed by this self-assured, friendly young man who not only possessed a lighter but also a truck and a silver rodeo belt buckle. He was so flummoxed he had to be reminded to give his last name when they introduced each other.

Then, when Jack suggested they go to a bar, Ennis didn't even walk beside Jack, he walked behind. He was further impressed by Jack's rodeo experience and knowledge of the job from having worked on the mtn the previous summer. Jack got him to open up about himself which few people had done before and when he told Jack a few details, Jack was empathetic, which also opened Ennis' eyes. Another thing that the film doesn't show but you have to imagine is the electricity between them. This is conveyed not only by what they did--sneaking looks at each other, making a big show of tying knots and mastering horses--but also what they didn't do--hiding behind their hat brims, carefully not looking at or touching each other.

It never ceases to amaze me how just when I think I understand all there is to understand about this movie, someone in this group comes up with an insight like this.  WOW.  OF COURSE!  That's exactly how I am (and was moreso when I was young) with men I'm attracted to.  Even now, if I find a man particularly beautiful, I find it difficult to look him in the eyes for very long when I talk to him - like the pull I'm feeling will somehow be betrayed to him and I'll look like a fool.

And the big show of tying knots and mastering horses!  Right on again!  I never thought of it that way in all my viewings, but of course they're preening for each other, aren't they.  I can't wait to watch it again, now, with this new-found perspective.

And I'll say it yet again:  Ang Lee is a f***ing genius.

[Front-Ranger]

We know from the story that the electricity existed between Jack and Ennis--it says so several times, particularly in the reunion scene. I think the reason for the intense looks from Ennis is to show that he is a good listener. Even though he is not saying anything, he is taking it all to heart. And Jack notices this and appreciates it. It reminds him of his mother's attention, as contrasted to his father, who demeaned all he said as "ideas that never came to pass."

[silkncense]

Front-Ranger -

I agree not only about the listening but about the asking. 

Jack showed Ennis he actually cared about him - how his life had been, how he felt about it.   Examples: "Your folks run you off?"; "Shit, that's hard" regarding the death of Ennis' parents; "Your brother & sister do right by you?" 

And when Ennis really opens up & Jack says "That's more words than you spoke in the last two weeks." & Ennis says, "That's more than I've spoke in a year." we see that his relationship with Jack, even at that point, is more emotionally intimate than it is to Alma, his fiance.

[TJ]

I think that Ennis fell in "like" with Jack the first evening after he had switched places and he had spent the night and the next day up with the sheep.

That evening Jack became Ennis's first best friend. The job change and the fact that Ennis had killed a coyote with balls the size of apples at first light that morning made Ennis feel like he had done something important.

That helped his self-esteem and the fact that they respected each other's opinions helped, too.

And it was several weeks after that in the book when they had their first night in the tent. And since there had been deepened intimacy after Ennis got inside of Jack's bedroll before the sex acutally took place, I just think that was a real "in love" scene which consummated their relationship.

OT here -- well, sorta, a bear in the book did appear until 1983 and Jack was there, too.

[ProwlAmongUs]

I felt it was that scene where Ennis is talking away and Jack give him that little smile and says that's the most I heard you talk all month, and Ennis offers that's the most I've talked all year and he give Jack that shy little smile.  It opens his face like a flower opening to the sun.  I think that's the moment when they first fall in love.

I'd agree with that as well. Ennis was admitting to Jack how rare it was for him to open up to anyone, and he's giving Jack the privilege few, if any, ever got. It's a great moment.

[serious crayons]

The first time I saw the movie, I realized it when Ennis asked for soup. By now, there's no sudden realization point for me. One reason is I already know it too well. The other is because I think it happens slowly and gradually from the time they are standing outside Aguirre's trailer.

[Front-Ranger]

Six months later, and I still say it was love at first sight!! Now that's a hopeless romantic for U!!

Two to go... 

[David]

In my opinion,  Jack first shows his feelings towards Ennis when he is bitching about how they both should be down in the camp at night together.

As for Ennis, that is harder to say.   Yes, he opens up to Jack by becoming talkative.  He also shows kindness by switching shifts with him, plus ordering the soup for Jack.   But I don't think he "shows" his feelings for Jack until tent scene number TWO.   

[Katie77]

What a beautiful thread...I have not seen this one before, but it is so nice to be reading and remembering those beautiful scenes as our two boys fell in love.

I believe that the first tent scene, was the moment that these two guys, realized that they just didnt like each other as "buddies", they realized then, that it was something more, and also something they wanted to continue with.

Well maybe not, doing the act in the first tent scene, but the following morning, I think they probably did a lot of soul searching, and by the time they got back together that night, they could admit their feelings to one another.

What a wonderful, but also confusing, love they created....a lot of dudes in those times might have shrugged it off as a drunken "one off", but thank god, these two were honest enough to sit down and talk about it, and take it to other places.

[moremojo]

I'm surprised it's taken me this long to reply to this thread, which predates my membership here. In all honesty, I wasn't sure precisely when the two men fell in love, and I don't think it can be pinpointed with such exactitude; I think it happened incrementally.

 My awareness developed incrementally while first seeing the film. By the time of the lakeside quarrel, and Ennis's breakdown, it was fully apparent to me that the two were very much in love--but when in the story did this happen? And then the flashback to the dozy embrace, and I realized...it happened there, on the mountain, back in that first summer of 1963. Jack's face while watching Ennis ride away is one of the most compelling images of love I have ever witnessed.

[Katie77]

I was just thinking about this question again, and I think maybe, the full realization might have been, when Ennis was waiting for Jack to arrive after four years, and he finally saw the truck pull in......the smile on his face certainly says something...and then THE KISS......totally out in the open, couldnt care less who sees.......

Love certainly took over at that moment...........

[Toast]

This is a beautiful thread and I really enjoyed reading it , even after months of viewing the movie and analyzing it.

I think it was love at first sight, but Jack felt it as lust, and Ennis knew no word or feeling to compare it with.  I think the scene in the bar shows their feeling for each other, with Ennis and Jack avoiding each other's eyes, but stroking their longneck beer bottles.  They felt they were for each other, but had no precedent to use in understanding their feelings.



During Tent Scene One, Ennis asks "What are we doing?"  The "we" had been defined in his brain much earlier, but the action was still to be defined. 

Lovely thread.  Lovely presentation in the film.

[David]

Looking back,  I'd say that I was just as surprized at the first tent scene as everyone else.

The boys didn't really look like they were falling in love to me.    It is easy now to look back  (hindsight is 20/20 after all)  and see the subtle ways in which they respected eachother and even missed eachother.   

But now after all my viewings I'd say they didn't fall in love, it just developed over time.    They were definately impressed with eachother.     I just can't put my finger on the moment where Jack says to himself "I want this guy to jump me".  Unless it was at the very beginning when he first laid eyes on Ennis.     Maybe Jack was horny for guys all along.     It was over the time on Brokeback that he got the courage to make that move.

  It is even harder for me to figure out when Ennis knew he wanted to jump Jack.     I think it was a few seconds after Jack grabbed his hand in Tent scene one.       Lets face it.  These two guys liked eachother alot.    They were mostly alone up in the mountains.   Probably horny as hell.   When Ennis was given the opportunity to jump Jack he did.     And he liked it.    Liked it enough to want more.     After that it was a great arrangement.    Male bonding and sex?   What could be better!   

Real Love really happened later.    I think the boys didn't figure it out until they parted.

[ifyoucantfixit]

             
                    i thought that ennis only realized it the morning he showed up back at camp and jack was dismantling the tent. i think he had only thought it was a fun way to have a friend with benefits.  when confronted with  going back down ...it hit him,,,he wasnt ready to leave jack...and threw the log away...then he sat and contemplated what he could do differently to make it happen.  coming up with nothing he could make work, he then got mad at jack easily for making him want him so much, and when he got hurt, it was the straw that broke the camels back..
                   jack i think came saw and decided to conquer at the front of aguirres trailor....but i have to admit...ennis liked what he saw as well.. his sly glances out from under his hat.  and looking at jacks smile in the bar...accompanied with the eyebrow raise at jacks smart mouth about standing around all day tying knots...just made ennis more and more facinated by the young rodeo rider..  who shows his willingness to tackle the hard job of taming a tough mount...as the low startle bouncy mare... janice

[CarlaMom2]

I agree with alot of what everyone is saying.  When the boys are talking and it was the most Ennis spoke in a year, you  saw a softer side of Ennis.  The second tent scene was so tender and Ennis really let himself go.  When they were leaving early and it hit Ennis so hard.  He became so angry again.  It was sad because you knew it was because he didn't want to go. You could really feel the love between them.

I get so choked up thinking about those scenes.  They were done so beautifully.

[Front-Ranger]

I think rt would be happy to see his post over here on the Open Forum getting a new lease on life. I really enjoyed reading these thoughts again, as well as the new ones (Toast, U are a crack-up!!) I agree with you Toast, and did you notice how Ennis fumbled picking up Jack's lighter? Another clue, LOL.

I just had a new idea about when they realized they were in love. What about when they had to separate? It mentions in the story a couple of times when Ennis left the campfire to go up to the sheep. That is when his thoughts of love and happiness seemed to be the strongest.

[Katie77]

This is my third thought of when they "fell in love".....i guess the more I think of scenes, the more times I realize how much their love was happening.....

When Ennis is lying at the campfire, looking up at the moon, "just sending up a prayer of thanks"........maybe that was the first time he felt comfortable saying about what he was feeling.....

I wrote about my thoughts on their love, in my blog the other day, so have copied a paragraph which I wrote, and what I think their love meant to Ennis......

Got to thinking about Ennis and the love he felt for Jack....I have always been of the opinion, that Ennis was not gay, and the more I thought of it today, just confirmed it even more....He fell in love with Jack, regardless, and in spite of the fact that he was of the same sex.....he was the one and only true love that Ennis could fit in his heart, as he found out thru his life.  Maybe it was because, Jack was the only one ever in his life to return the same kind of love, that Ennis craved for.......

[serious crayons]

Got to thinking about Ennis and the love he felt for Jack....I have always been of the opinion, that Ennis was not gay, and the more I thought of it today, just confirmed it even more....He fell in love with Jack, regardless, and in spite of the fact that he was of the same sex.....he was the one and only true love that Ennis could fit in his heart, as he found out thru his life.  Maybe it was because, Jack was the only one ever in his life to return the same kind of love, that Ennis craved for.......

Sue, what makes you feel that Ennis is not gay? If he's attracted to a man, and enjoys sex with a man, and is in love with a man, doesn't that make him gay (or at least bi) pretty much by definition?

I think of Ennis as gay, and not even very bi, because he doesn't seem particularly attracted to Alma or Cassie. I do think it's possible he wasn't attracted to other men besides Jack. (Though I suspect he has been in the past.)

[moremojo]

Sue, what makes you feel that Ennis is not gay? If he's attracted to a man, and enjoys sex with a man, and is in love with a man, doesn't that make him gay (or at least bi) pretty much by definition?

I think of Ennis as gay, and not even very bi, because he doesn't seem particularly attracted to Alma or Cassie. I do think it's possible he wasn't attracted to other men besides Jack. (Though I suspect he has been in the past.)

Sue's perception was shared by both me and my sister when we first saw the film. My sister still holds to this view, and argues that the film functions most provocatively and challengingly when it suggests that love can furrow paths that our minds and hearts might never have contemplated; for my part, I have come to see Ennis as an extremely repressed homosexual man.

My initial feeling of Ennis's primary heterosexuality originated in large part from the fact that nowhere do we ever sense that Ennis is attracted to any male other than Jack. In my observations and experiences as a gay man, I find this most unusual, but I concede that it is not impossible. I now understand Ennis's apparent apathy towards other males as probable evidence of his profound repression and denial.

[Katie77]

Sue, what makes you feel that Ennis is not gay? If he's attracted to a man, and enjoys sex with a man, and is in love with a man, doesn't that make him gay (or at least bi) pretty much by definition?

I think of Ennis as gay, and not even very bi, because he doesn't seem particularly attracted to Alma or Cassie. I do think it's possible he wasn't attracted to other men besides Jack. (Though I suspect he has been in the past.)

The subject of whether we think Ennis was gay, has been discussed on another thread in great length......so I dont want to change the course of this thread by too much discussion on this subject here.....

Got to thinking about Ennis and the love he felt for Jack....I have always been of the opinion, that Ennis was not gay, and the more I thought of it today, just confirmed it even more....He fell in love with Jack, regardless, and in spite of the fact that he was of the same sex.....he was the one and only true love that Ennis could fit in his heart, as he found out thru his life.  Maybe it was because, Jack was the only one ever in his life to return the same kind of love, that Ennis craved for.......

What I meant by those thoughts were, that he fell in love with Jack, regardless of the fact that he was of the same sex, not because he was attracted to someone of the same sex.

Is there a degree of gayness?......Jack was obviously more gay than Ennis was, as we see when he goes to Mexico, to get a man.....Ennis found "something" with Cassie, even though it didnt last...and he must have had "something" with Alma before he met Jack, to consider marrying her....

I do not think Ennis was gay.....he just fell in love with Jack..............

[serious crayons]

I agree with you, Scott -- I think he's an extremely repressed gay man. It's possible he is attracted to other men from time to time but has taught himself to hide it very carefully, even from himself -- the way he hides his feelings about Jack, at first.

I think the power of the Earl incident on shaping Ennis' outlook and character depends partly on Ennis understanding that he and Earl had something in common, and that he'd better be careful never to reveal that something or risk the same fate.

As for Alma and Cassie, I think Ennis married Alma because he knew it was expected of him. The concept of not marrying a woman because he's attracted to men instead wouldn't have crossed his mind. As for Cassie, she pursued him pretty aggressively, and provided a convenient way to keep the "people on the pavement" from being suspicious. It seems from the way he describes her to Jack that he doesn't find her all that exciting.
 

[Front-Ranger]

I'm posting just because I want to look at this lovely thread again.

[Brown Eyes]

Geez!  I can't believe I never posted in this old thread before!  Thanks for bumping it Sister-Mod.

Well, I think there are lots of moments early in the film where it seems pretty clear that one of cowboys was attracted to the other (Ennis attracted to Jack and Jack attracted to Ennis).  But, this may seem to easy... the scene where it's entirely clear that it's probably *really* love and *really* mutual is TS2.

I think a strong argument can be made for the earlier scene where Jack makes Ennis laugh and smile for the first time (the "most I've spoke in a year" scene).  They eye contact there and the quiet moments of connection that seem to happen strongly suggest that they may have mutually fallen in love.

But, the clearest moment to me still is TS2.

[brokeplex]

I think that they realized it might be more than a "one-shot thing" when they started bonding so closely after the big hail storm. My favorite scene when they were together on the mountain was the picture of them riding off together at  sunset with the reconstituted herd while Jack is playing the harmonica, Ennis then kids him about how sorry his music sounds! yep when you can kid each other, its a bonding. 

[Nikita111]

Ditto.

co-sign

[Artiste]

If we talk about the movie, it depends also as in the book, what do you consider as love??

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

good point Artiste, you tell us what you mean and we'll hash it out.

[Meryl]

Wow, Nikita, that's a fabulous picture of young Heath in your sig.  How about getting thee over to the "Heath Heath Heath" thread and sharing it?  Here's the link:  http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1179.0.html .

By the way, welcome to BetterMost! 

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex, and  thanks all !!

Brokeplex, you make my day since you made me laugh somehow with your question, even if I am exhausted! Thank goodness, you did that! You say about my question concerning love about how it can be considered:good point Artiste, you tell us what you mean and we'll hash it out.
...

May I in return pose you that question of yours, yes to you, and to all here?? !!

P.S., To me, in the movie, both Jack and Ennis feel for each other right away when they both arrive at the trailer for their job that Aquirre will give then. But is it both, one or the two? Is is love or infatuation? Or curiosity? Or what?

Hugs! Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Artiste,
I definitely agree that there's something significant going on between Ennis and Jack right from the very beginning.  Since it's silent, it's nearly impossible to assign the opening (wonderful) scene one meaning.  I think essentially, they're each checking the other out.  And, I think Jack is more conscious of the nature of his interest in Ennis... while Ennis, I think is attracted to Jack right from the beginning, but he's still probably a little confused about what his emotions mean. 

Also, Jack really wants to draw attention to himself... by posing so seductively against his truck... by taking a few steps towards Ennis... by attempting to make eye-contact (it seems like that to me anyway).  While, Ennis is trying to be very sneaky about the peeks he's taking of Jack.  He's withdrawing into himself, under his hat.  He's using his body language to stop Jack from coming right up to him or from starting a conversation, etc.  Ennis's "don't talk to me" vibe here must have been *really* strong given what we all know (in hindsight) about how chatty and friendly Jack is.

On one level I think this opening scene is a study in two very different forms of flirting.

[brokeplex]

Hi Artiste,
I definitely agree that there's something significant going on between Ennis and Jack right from the very beginning. 

On one level I think this opening scene is a study in two very different forms of flirting.

I think that you may be misreading Ennis's body language. Yes, I agree that Jack has Ennis on his tracker. But, Ennis flirting with Jack. No!  Ennis just wants to get on with his summer job. Later, after he got to know Jack he was more inclined to accept Jack's attentions.

[BelAir]

to answer the posted question...

based on my first viewing experience, I think I knew it when Ennis got pissed about having to go down the mountain early, and when Jack lasso'd him...  and then I knew it for sure when Ennis was puking in the alley way...

(just to clarify, what I posted above is when it became to obvious to me that they were in love, when I was watching the movie for the first time... not when it actually started to happen for them. make sense?)

[Brown Eyes]

I think that you may be misreading Ennis's body language. Yes, I agree that Jack has Ennis on his tracker. But, Ennis flirting with Jack. No!  Ennis just wants to get on with his summer job. Later, after he got to know Jack he was more inclined to accept Jack's attentions.

Well, yes, you're right that Ennis isn't really flirting with Jack... he's sort of doing the opposite.  I was trying to be a little bit fun in using the word flirt.  But, he is expressing interest in Jack.  So, maybe I should have said... two different ways that attraction is manifested. 

I really do think that in the glances he throws to Jack, Ennis is very interested in him.  And, I think that Ennis's defensive body language has a lot to do with his fear that Jack (or anyone else) would notice that he's checking Jack out.

This happens again a few times early on (prior to TS1).  When Jack and Ennis are at the jump off before heading up the mountain, Ennis seems to again "check out" Jack on horseback and then quickly look around or change his expression as if worried that someone would see him.  And again, once they're up on Brokeback during the "horse spinning" scene Ennis becomes more bold at looking at Jack... leaning back to get a better view, etc.  But, again, he curtails his behavior in apparent worry, eve when he knows he's alone.

But, back to the very opening interaction... in a general way, I think this is a visual study of a kind of very subtle attraction that's well outside the norm of Hollywood cinema.

 

to answer the posted question...

based on my first viewing experience, I think I knew it when Ennis got pissed about having to go down the mountain early, and when Jack lasso'd him...  and then I knew it for sure when Ennis was puking in the alley way...

(just to clarify, what I posted above is when it became to obvious to me that they were in love, when I was watching the movie for the first time... not when it actually started to happen for them. make sense?)

The scene where it's clear to me that they are in love (and mutually in love) is TS2.

[BelAir]

The scene where it's clear to me that they are in love (and mutually in love) is TS2.

I think you're probably right, that they were in love in the second tent scene, but when I first saw the movie, I  hadn't picked up on it yet...

[Brown Eyes]

I think you're probably right, that they were in love in the second tent scene, but when I first saw the movie, I  hadn't picked up on it yet...

Well, I think that's one of the wonderful things about BBM... that so many of us react to scenes differently. 

For me, the combination of Ennis consciously making the decision to get up, leave the fire and go to Jack... with the gentleness and the deliberateness of everything that goes on in the tent following the drama of the day, made it pretty clear to me that they were in love.  That it wasn't just about sex.  If the encounter had been similar to TS1 again the second time... it would have been harder to read this second scene as "love."  The contrasts between TS1 and TS2 are just amazing.

I think the happy tussle that immediately follows TS2 also helped me see the whole nature of their relationship as having shifted into "love."

But, I can completely understand why for some viewers an understanding of their relationship would be different or could hinge on different scenes entirely.

[brokeplex]

OK, I agree that for Ennis by the time of TS2 his interactions with Jack are something much more than "a one shot thing". But, I believe that Ennis would with all honesty deny that it is "love" both to himself and to others. So, is it really love? Does denial change the feeling?

In many ways I don't think that Ennis consciously "loved" Jack until a scene late in the movie in the closet in OMT's house. He holds the shirts up to his face and quietly mouths the words: "I love you". Maybe that was a moment of epiphany for Ennis caused by the shock of Jack's death and the surprise at finding the shirts.

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75, thanks brokeplex, and thanks BelAir!!!

Boy you sure amaze me with your details. Am so very pleased!
May I re-say: May I in return pose you that question of yours, yes to you, and to all here: What you consider LOVE?? !!

P.S., To me, in the movie, both Jack and Ennis feel for each other right away when they both arrive at the trailer for their job that Aquirre will give then. But is it both, one or the two? Is is love or infatuation? Or curiosity? Or what?


............................................
May I add that right away, these glancing scenes makes the movie a love story!! ??

But is that love?? Or just sex?? Or is attraction part of love?? Is flirting love here too?? Etc.?
Compelling is all of that in the beggining of the movie to me with the two: Jack as well as Ennis!! Is that so too in the book??

Talking about curiosity, I think that that is most important too!! Both men at their first meeting for a job with Aquirre, are curious about the other!! We must not forget that their is an eye by both, as they look at each other!! That to me, makes it a pro-gay WAY (or is it an pro-straight way mostly??) beggining in the movie (and that will be talked about further later). Like you say atz, it is not only Jack that looks, since the actions and interactions by Ennis is also most important as it is maybe flirting on his part too?? !! Would you have changed that atz or added to it to make it even better??

Brokeplex, Ennis might deny love in some ways, but in other ways, he does not seem to do so. Right away at the first sight of Jack loooooking at him, makes him wake up to adventure??

These two actors must have talked about this?? Or was it somebody elses's idea, for these important looks which are vivid by both actors??

So happy to read your news,

hugs! hugs! hugs!

 

[Nikita111]

Wow, Nikita, that's a fabulous picture of young Heath in your sig.  How about getting thee over to the "Heath Heath Heath" thread and sharing it?  Here's the link:  http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1179.0.html .

By the way, welcome to BetterMost! 

 Hi Meryl. 

I posted one gorgeous photoshoot to Heath, Heath, Heath and I will upload this one as well.

Enjoy the gorgeousness of his Aussie devine self.

 

[Nikita111]

Hi Artiste,
I definitely agree that there's something significant going on between Ennis and Jack right from the very beginning.  Since it's silent, it's nearly impossible to assign the opening (wonderful) scene one meaning.  I think essentially, they're each checking the other out.  And, I think Jack is more conscious of the nature of his interest in Ennis... while Ennis, I think is attracted to Jack right from the beginning, but he's still probably a little confused about what his emotions mean. 

Also, Jack really wants to draw attention to himself... by posing so seductively against his truck... by taking a few steps towards Ennis... by attempting to make eye-contact (it seems like that to me anyway).  While, Ennis is trying to be very sneaky about the peeks he's taking of Jack.  He's withdrawing into himself, under his hat.  He's using his body language to stop Jack from coming right up to him or from starting a conversation, etc.  Ennis's "don't talk to me" vibe here must have been *really* strong given what we all know (in hindsight) about how chatty and friendly Jack is.

On one level I think this opening scene is a study in two very different forms of flirting.

 Interesting I thought Ennis wasn't feeling it that way at the first scene but he began to feel something after days on Brokeback.

[brokeplex]

But is that love?? Or just sex?? Or is attraction part of love?? Is flirting love here too?? Etc.?


Brokeplex, Ennis might deny love in some ways, but in other ways, he does not seem to do so. Right away at the first sight of Jack loooooking at him, makes him wake up to adventure??


 

No, Ennis did not "wake up to love" upon seeing Jack. He disovered that in his isolation he had an interest in Jack as a person, then later saw Jack as a convenient sexual outlet, and later still  he began to feel affection and a highly sublimated type of love for Jack. That all said, I believe that it was not until 20 years later, when he was in the closet at OMT's house holding the two shirts that he finally admitted and accepted to himself that he loved Jack. Hence the tragedy of the short story and the movie.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Glad that you detail that!!

But (excuse my butt),  may I ask isn't excitement, like infatuation, even sex, part of love??
Ennis did look back at Jack since Jack was looking at him... continuously?? First time at that trailer in order to get a job.
That in the movie!
Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

No, Ennis did not "wake up to love" upon seeing Jack. He disovered that in his isolation he had an interest in Jack as a person, then later saw Jack as a convenient sexual outlet, and later still  he began to feel affection and a highly sublimated type of love for Jack. That all said, I believe that it was not until 20 years later, when he was in the closet at OMT's house holding the two shirts that he finally admitted and accepted to himself that he loved Jack. Hence the tragedy of the short story and the movie.

I still believe that Ennis was aware that he was in love with Jack earlier than the closet scene at the end.  He may not have been able to put a word to his feelings articulately as early as the '63 summer.  But, I think he was aware of a profound emotion that had everything to do with his feelings for Jack.  Early on he may have been deeply invested in a type of denial that may have prevented him from explicitly thinking about the term "love."  But, I still think that as early as TS2 he was aware of the emotion (un-named or not).  And, I think he really feels the effects of this as something that will impact the rest of his life as soon as he sees Jack dismantling the tent.  He immediately sits on the log and pouts... leading to his quite moment sitting alone in the grass and then the unhappy-tussle... the dry-heaves in the alley, etc.  All of these things seem to point to a strong emotion related to his uneasiness separating from Jack.

I think the word "love" only really comes into play as an articulate term at the end... spurred by conversations with Cassie, the experience at Lightning Flat, the last conversation with Alma Jr., etc.

In terms of the when did they fall in love question... I think there's a distinction to be made about when the emotion seemed to start happening (mutually) and when the word becomes articulate.

[brokeplex]

This is the great thing about great works of art : whether cinematic, painterly, or works of literature, we can interpret aspects of the work in as many different ways as our imagination allows us to journey. Some see tomatoes, others see beach balls. 

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75, and thanks brokeplex!!

Atz75, may I answer brokeplex first... and reply to you later (remind me please).  Since I feel that he is lighthearted here. Because it is hard for me to think right now, being back from the dentist who took finally out my big tooth!

Brokeplex, you say: This is the great thing about great works of art : whether cinematic, painterly, or works of literature, we can interpret aspects of the work in as many different ways as our imagination allows us to journey. Some see tomatoes, others see beach balls.   
 

Yes, that is important! And somehting else is more so!
You make my day! And you made me smile too! Plus laugh! I am delighted with your reply.

However, may I ask you and add that, since I am an artist painter, that I create images on canvas, not only for colour (as you say different ways the imagination of the spectator make think, take or do, as I mainly know that there is thruth there as the composition has it!! I do not know how else to say that, you understand?, and others here reading understand maybe too my meaning??

To continue about that: thruth! Yes, it is a journey, but there is also thruth that routes of journeys can find it (that thruth!! Only then, there is freedom; otherwise, only keeping on being somewhat lost by routes of a journey or journeys!! I will give you a concrete example (of my personal life) if you ask.

To me, it is obvious, that Jack is attracted immediately at his first sight of Ennis, and Ennis is stirred too as a result!!
That is in the movie, and, therefore, the producers (writers of the script) and/or Lee makes this clear right away, as an potential love story (Jack) with drama (Ennis) too; yes, Jack is the love, but Ennis is the drama!! But was that the two main actors (Jake and Heath) ideas of doing that?

To you, is the book the same?? As such attraction? Did even Annie qualify it that way immediately as in the movie?

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75!

You say this: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: brokeplex on Yesterday at 10:02:59 AM
No, Ennis did not "wake up to love" upon seeing Jack. He disovered that in his isolation he had an interest in Jack as a person, then later saw Jack as a convenient sexual outlet, and later still  he began to feel affection and a highly sublimated type of love for Jack. That all said, I believe that it was not until 20 years later, when he was in the closet at OMT's house holding the two shirts that he finally admitted and accepted to himself that he loved Jack. Hence the tragedy of the short story and the movie.


I still believe that Ennis was aware that he was in love with Jack earlier than the closet scene at the end.  He may not have been able to put a word to his feelings articulately as early as the '63 summer.  But, I think he was aware of a profound emotion that had everything to do with his feelings for Jack.  Early on he may have been deeply invested in a type of denial that may have prevented him from explicitly thinking about the term "love."  But, I still think that as early as TS2 he was aware of the emotion (un-named or not).  And, I think he really feels the effects of this as something that will impact the rest of his life as soon as he sees Jack dismantling the tent.  He immediately sits on the log and pouts... leading to his quite moment sitting alone in the grass and then the unhappy-tussle... the dry-heaves in the alley, etc.  All of these things seem to point to a strong emotion related to his uneasiness separating from Jack.

I think the word "love" only really comes into play as an articulate term at the end... spurred by conversations with Cassie, the experience at Lightning Flat, the last conversation with Alma Jr., etc.

In terms of the when did they fall in love question... I think there's a distinction to be made about when the emotion seemed to start happening (mutually) and when the word becomes articulate.

..............

May I agree with you. And think that even love's arrow starts right away in the movie since Jack has an eye and presents it right away to Ennis, who does respond!!

What is: the dry-heaves in the alley? I am lost. Please explain. Give me concrete example(s).

Hugs!!

[serious crayons]

What is: the dry-heaves in the alley? I am lost. Please explain. Give me concrete example(s).

Artiste, that refers to the scene at the end of the Brokeback summer when, after Jack and Ennis part in Signal, Ennis walks away and then goes into the alley and retches, cries and beats the wall. "Dry heaves" is retching without expelling actual vomit.

[Artiste]

Thanks ineedcrayons!

You sure are clear. I am grateful to you doing so!

You say this: Artiste, that refers to the scene at the end of the Brokeback summer when, after Jack and Ennis part in Signal, Ennis walks away and then goes into the alley and retches, cries and beats the wall. "Dry heaves" is retching without expelling actual vomit.



....................

Ineedcrayons, to me, that is quite significant of an act, in the movie! You think so too and why? Is it too in the book?

Is this act of retching, one of Ennis' thought or sub-conscience; or one since he wanted to continue to love and be with Jack, there and then after coming down from the mountain with the sheep?

Is this retching an act which shows that both Ennis and Jack are indeed in love?? At that moment both Ennis and Jack know that they are indeed in real love thoughts?? (Does someone realize that as that as their first fall in love act consciously??

Hugs!!

[moremojo]

Actually, on my first viewing, I saw the retching as indicative of Ennis's inner torment about what he had done on the mountain; that is to say, I thought it illustrated his deep self-loathing for having had sexual relations with another man. I saw the film before I had read the story in any depth (had only scanned it in the bookstore), and had no knowledge of story-Ennis coming to understand the retching himself as a sign that he "should never have let [Jack] out of [his] sight". The quiet sobs that we hear from movie-Ennis after the retching also seem to suggest the pangs of heartbreak. It is certainly possible that the scene conveys a multiplicity of meanings (and can certainly be interpreted in more than one way).

[serious crayons]

The quiet sobs that we hear from movie-Ennis after the retching also seem to suggest the pangs of heartbreak. It is certainly possible that the scene conveys a multiplicity of meanings (and can certainly be interpreted in more than one way).

Well put, Scott. Like so much in the movie, the scene is very ambiguous and is open to multiple interpretations. Personally, I'm more in the heartbreak camp than the self-loathing camp. But there might be a touch of inner torment, as well.

Well, more than a touch, I guess. Inner torment is pretty much Ennis' middle name!

 

[Brown Eyes]

Well, more than a touch, I guess. Inner torment is pretty much Ennis' middle name!

Yes indeed!


And, I'm in the heartbreak + inner torment camp.

I've never really viewed the dry-heaves scene as being about self-loathing (although, now that this concept has been raised, I certainly can understand why some viewers might come to this interpretation).  Also, by montaging the retching scene with the wedding scene (or at least a sound montage... with the voice of the "happy preacher" coming into the alley scene before we see the wedding) I often wonder if the dry-heaves have something to do with Ennis already regretting and worrying about the impact of a marriage on his life (foreshadowing regret about all that comes to pass during the relationship).

[Brown Eyes]

Here's a visual aid for the dry-heaves scene. 

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3121107-22d.jpg" border="0" />

[Artiste]

Thanks Moremojo, thanks ineedcrayons, and thanks atz75!!!

Boy, this subject: At what moment in BBM did you realize that they were falling in love? .... sur can be many possible answers!!! It is interesting! We can now think of the dry-heaves scene... 

too, as very important!! As this is like a mystery too!!

Is the the dry-heaves scene 

also in Annie's book? Or created  only by the script or screen writers, or by the director (Lee)??

Hugs!

P.S. Is this  the dry-heaves scene... depression?

[brokeplex]

narrative from the screen play:

"He stumbles into an alley, drops to his knees. Kneels there, silent, as pain, longing, loneliness, overpower ENNIS -- emotions stronger than he's ever felt for another person consume him : he feels as bad and confused as he ever has in his life."

[Artiste]

Thanks all!!

Brokeplex since you quote the script about Ennis': ... emotions stronger than he's ever felt for another person consume him : he feels as bad and confused as he ever has in his life."
........
Brokeplex, in this dry-heaves scene, does the script mention really that Ennis thinks then about Jack? Could it be that he thinks about Alma Sr. instead? But the director (Lee) took liberty of that to make us, the spectator(s) view it as Ennis thinks about Jack?

Plus, what is said in the book? Any mention there at all about dry-heaves?
........

To some viewers, maybe this scene is when Ennis feels that he realizes his love for Jack?

.............

Hugs!! Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Holidays to you all!!

[brokeplex]

Let me suggest Artiste that you purchase a copy of the excellent book "Brokeback Mountain - Story to Screenplay" ISBN-13 : 978-0-7432-9416-4

In this book are the original short story, the screen play and some excellent commentary by AP, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana

You can compare for yourself any differences between screen play and short story. I found this book at Barnes and Noble

There is also an interesting book that I purchased on Amazon called "Reading Brokeback Mountain". I highly recommend that one as well.

[serious crayons]

Let me suggest Artiste that you purchase a copy of the excellent book "Brokeback Mountain - Story to Screenplay" ISBN-13 : 978-0-7432-9416-4

A Brokie friend gave me that book as a gift. Since then, It has never left the drawer of my computer desk, and I refer to it constantly when writing here (just as the New Yorker issue with the original story hasn't left her side for a decade!  )

[brokeplex]

You have a copy of the original "New Yorker" article?

 Hang on to that, it is worth real money now, aside from the personal value you have in it. .

I just bought an author signed copy of  that article (without the italicized intro) on a collectors web site, I'm still reeling from the prices these dealers charge...........

[Front-Ranger]

You have a copy of the original "New Yorker" article?

 Hang on to that, it is worth real money now, aside from the personal value you have in it. .

I just bought an author signed copy of  that article (without the italicized intro) on a collectors web site, I'm still reeling from the prices these dealers charge...........

I'll have to get Annie to sign it next time I see her (hopefully 'round the time of the Roundup!) but still it won't be for sale at any price! I'm so glad to see you're still getting use out of that book, Kathryn!! An interesting anecdote: a mutual friend of ours saw my copy at my house, started reading it, and then freaked out because in the early '90s, he used to play pool at the Mint Bar with his buddies!! He would've been in his early 20s at that time...

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Are those my Christmas presents you will be giving me, eh buddy?? Would love those books!

Say, in which New Yorker was it in? One or more? Are those now in demand too and much more $??

In another thread somehow, I felt that both Ennis and Jack felt numb after Aguiire told them to come down which ended their jobs much earlier. Then and there, we, as spectators do feel that they are in love... since Jack goes to rope Ennis who is afar in being pensive!

Then, maybe I felt for the first time that Ennis was in love with Jack, and vice versa?

Hugs!!

Did they need to be convinced each to believe in the future??
Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to all and lost of hugs too!!

[brokeplex]

Artiste: Go to google and call up the various rare book dealers listed, you will find autographed copies of AP's books and her magazine article for sale. I'll let you find out the prices yourself.

Ennis is disappointed at many levels in the foreshortened summer work on Brokeback Mountain. He is disappointed that his "arcadia" experience with Jack is coming to an end, and he is disappointed that his wages will be reduced.

We may be reading too much into Ennis to believe that in Aug 1963 he was conscious of how deep his feelings were for Jack.

Ennis was in massive and profound denial about his sexuality, do not underestimate how denial can affect the conscious mind.

I believe that he finally consciously admitted to himself that he loved Jack only when he held the two shirts up to his face while in the closet at OMT's spread in 1983. One of the saddest tragedies in a tragic love story.

[myprivatejack]

Hi again,Brokeplex¡
I agree with you that Ennis doesn´t admit his love for Jack until he discovered he shirts in Twist home,but,don´t you think that this moment was the end of a long journey of self-discovering?A journey that perhaps began with the conversation with Cassie who,in some way,taught him what real love was.
I think he was very shocked at the end of their BBM summer because for a few weeks in his life,he felt loved and with someone who cared for him,-we must not forget that both of them were some uprooted boys...-.But at the same time,he knew he must put himself face to face with the real life,that one that doesn´t allow guys like them,he must keep on being a "real" man...And his affair with Jack and,above all,what he felt for him,were an important obstacle to  get it,´cause it had changed all  his  world,his life and his rules.I think Ennis,in some way,loved and hated Jack and himself for this changes.
Regarding to when I realised they were falling in love,I think that in the scene when Ennis speaks "more than in a year"they seem to be already quite smitten,IMO.

[brokeplex]

Hi again,Brokeplex¡
I agree with you that Ennis doesn´t admit his love for Jack until he discovered he shirts in Twist home,but,don´t you think that this moment was the end of a long journey?

You've made some great points ! But I am going to have to disagree with you on the most important point that you made. The central tragedy in this tragic story is that Ennis only begins his journey of self-awareness at age 40 after the shock of the death of the man that he loves(d). His painful epiphany in the closet is the beginning for Ennis to lead an "authentic" life (Sartre), or as I like to put it more in the American English I am comfortable with, a"justified" life (from a line in the Peckinpah film "Ride the High Country"). 

[Artiste]

Thanks myprivatejack, thanks Front-Ranger, and  thanks brokeplex!!!

Wow, sure is interesting are your comments!

Isn't love between two individuals much more too??

The first glances of Ennis and Jack, are they not also important??

Hugs!!!

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays happy and safe to you and to all on earth!!

[Oregondoggie]

You've made some great points ! But I am going to have to disagree with you on the most important point that you made. The central tragedy in this tragic story is that Ennis only begins his journey of self-awareness at age 40 after the shock of the death of the man that he loves(d). His painful epiphany in the closet is the beginning for Ennis to lead an "authentic" life (Sartre), or as I like to put it more in the American English I am comfortable with, a"justified" life (from a line in the Peckinpah film "Ride the High Country"). 

Alas, the short story ends with the terrible riddle: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it." 

Annie Proulx saw an older cowhand staring wistfully at the young men playing pool in a bar in Sheridan, Wyoming.  He is alone.

[moremojo]

Annie Proulx saw an older cowhand staring wistfully at the young men playing pool in a bar in Sheridan, Wyoming.  He is alone.

Yes, and in the story's italicized preface, there are distinct clues that many years have passed since Jack's death, and Ennis shows every sign of being quite alone. In the story, there is a strong implication that Jack's death marked the end of Ennis's emotional journey.

The movie, however, can (and does for some) lend itself to a more redemptive outcome for Ennis. The exchange with Junior in part shows that Ennis has learned valuable lessons from his experience with Jack, and is beginning to incorporate those lessons in his life.

It is interesting, brokeplex, that you invoke Ride the High Country. In the published BBM screenplay, in the post-Thanksgiving riding scene, Jack and Ennis are described in an authorial aside as meant to suggest Randolph Scott and Joel McCrea in that film.

[Artiste]

Thanks all of you!!

Oregondoggie you say: [Annie Proulx saw an older cowhand staring wistfully at the young men playing pool in a bar in Sheridan, Wyoming.  He is alone/i]
........

Is that the sort of a gay man, according to Annie? Being alone!! ??

If you are a gay man, young or old, should one be sad with that ending by Annie?? See that as the probable ending of one's life: being alone??

Do we, as spectators, see that too in the BM movie: such loneliness?

In that BM film, we can think or feel that Ennis and Jack were in love, but we do realise that is never to end that way!! Sad is the ending!! That is the hallmark of when we, as spectators, think that Ennis loves then Jack: I swear...?? Can that be a sad episode too, since Ennis is alone and sad!! in his trailer after his daughter announces her marriage ??

Hugs!!

May Christmas time be Merry (and not only sad one) as to reflect upon being Happy during then, and in the Gay Holidays!!

[Oregondoggie]

The short story is a tragedy, undiluted by a happy future for Ennis.  The movie changed this... possibly to accomodate the box office. 

BTW, the theme of this thread is about when do we realize they were falling in love.   Both the book and the movie seem to place this around the good time they have one evening at the campfire, talking and teasing each other.  Ennis "thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon."   In the movie there is also some good natured jostling after the elk is killed earlier...

[Artiste]

Thanks Oregondoggies! And thanks too to all others!!

Oregondoggies, since you mention that in the movie: there is also some good natured jostling after the elk is killed earlier...
 

..........
May I say that that jostling, and other tender moments too after, that leads me to think that those are also short times as scenes that leads me to think that Ennis and Jack are falling in love, more and more!!

What do you think Oregondoggies and  you all??

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays!!

[brokeplex]

Yes, and in the story's italicized preface, there are distinct clues that many years have passed since Jack's death, and Ennis shows every sign of being quite alone. In the story, there is a strong implication that Jack's death marked the end of Ennis's emotional journey.

The movie, however, can (and does for some) lend itself to a more redemptive outcome for Ennis. The exchange with Junior in part shows that Ennis has learned valuable lessons from his experience with Jack, and is beginning to incorporate those lessons in his life.

It is interesting, brokeplex, that you invoke Ride the High Country. In the published BBM screenplay, in the post-Thanksgiving riding scene, Jack and Ennis are described in an authorial aside as meant to suggest Randolph Scott and Joel McCrea in that film.

I would suspect that Ennis never again had a close encounter with another man. Jack was it for him. But, that doesn't entirely mean an end to his journey towards a life of emotional self-acceptance and awareness. Ennis kept his ties to his daughters. He was invited to Junior's wedding, and in the ss he mused about the possibility of having to live temporarily with Junior and her husband. This implies a good relationship with both Junior and her roughneck husband. The Ennis that we first meet leaning next to Joe Aguirre's trailer was so closed up and afraid that it was difficult for him to make friends. Ennis grew as a result of his love for Jack, and finally his acceptance, albeit still "closeted", of that love.

"Ride the High Country" has always been one of my favorite Westerns. The motivation of the "hero" (the McCrea character) to lead and cause others to lead a 'justified' life, has always intrigued me. I see what you are saying about the visual imagery of the boys riding together, it does resemble Scott and McCrea, also the images of Ennis leading the pack mules along the ridgeline paths seems also taken from the movie. Thanks for reminding me.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex, thanks moremojo, thanks Oregondoggie, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all too!!

Concerning: At what moment in BBM did you realize that they were falling in love? , isn't that a mystery! Like love is?? !!

To me, re-seeing the movie I seem to realize that Jack firstly has an eye for a stranger (which he finds later that he is named Ennis), right away at that first sight, since Ennis is besides the trailer. When Ennis the second time, he glances at Jack who is obviously looking at him still, this tells me that a possible romance is in the air!! They both have eyes for each other... call it flirtation if you like, but isn't that part of love??

Brokeplex, you say: I would suspect that Ennis never again had a close encounter with another man. Jack was it for him.

Brokeplex, I tend to agree with you on that, those two lines. Any proof otherwise? Maybe? Since you add this: in the screen script, he mused about the possibility of having to live temporarily with Junior and her husband. This implies a good relationship with both Junior and her roughneck husband.

.....
Brokeplex, you added too this: The Ennis that we first meet leaning next to Joe Aguirre's trailer was so closed up and afraid that it was difficult for him to make friends.

Brokeplex, may I wonder about that? Why afraid to make friends or a friend??
............

Brokeplex, I am glad that you say in reply to moremojo (and I thank you too moremojo) that: "Ride the High Country" has always been one of my favorite Westerns. The motivation of the "hero" (the McCrea character) to lead and cause others to lead a 'justified' life, has always intrigued me. I see what you are saying about the visual imagery of the boys riding together, it does resemble Scott and McCrea, also the images of Ennis leading the pack mules along the ridgeline paths seems also taken from the movie. Thanks for reminding me. 
 


Having read about Scott life with another man he lived happily with as a gay couple in Hollywood, I do tend to think that Heath is indeed Randolph Scott too... in that scene and in other scenes, may I add. Heath's body is like Scott, to me!! To you all??

..............
Oregondoggie, could you explain (detail) what is this:

Ennis "thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon."    ?? Please anyone here too!! Samples... eh??
...............
Moremojo, since you say: Yes, and in the story's italicized preface, there are distinct clues that many years have passed since Jack's death, and Ennis shows every sign of being quite alone. In the story, there is a strong implication that Jack's death marked the end of Ennis's emotional journey.


Moremojo and others, therefore, Ennis will now love another person, be it another man besides Jack??
......

Hugs to all!! May we keep one with the BM mystery! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to all here on Bettermost and on earth!! Guess this is like a heaven for us here??

[brokeplex]

Artiste, may I presume to offer you some communications advice?

If you wish to post questions to individuals, try to present your questions and opinions in an easier format.

This can be achieved by dividing your questions into several posts over time, aim each individual post at the individual Bettermostian you wish to question.

You may find others would more likely respond if you make your posts more "reader" friendly.

Speaking for myself, I am an all too frail aging human who doesn't always have the time or patience to sort thru posts as complex as yours.

Unfortunately then because of my attention span problem, and limited time available for browsing Bettermost, I miss out on some of the meaning in your messages.

I do like your ticker banner moving across the page!

Merry Christmas!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

I will re-read what you say as I am pleased of your efforts to help, and I like your continued communications!!

I read briefly this once, your comment here, and accept it! But that is moi! So is it with anyone else (or most or some)! My state of mind, of being presently?? To be... or not ot be?? As in Ennis and Jack?? However, I do try at times to make a thing simple... like a thought or an idea, but do I have that patience or time to do so, most times, no! I doubt that anyone will read only a word or a sentence or two or three, only, when one reads a book!

You are assured that I like your comment, very much!! When I look at what others do like I do, I sometime do come back to them, to those numerous paragraphs or ideas, only sometimes!! Of course, I take what is an immediate thought by one there and then and work on it! But others ideas if not answered right away, can be understood only later, some... or one, but it must be there in order to be seen or it might forever lost or never seen!! ??

Guess that it is writing.. likeness toI creating a painting on canvas, which I do. Each of my paintings is a complex as while as simple; that is why most of them are museum pieces!! I have been told to limit each, but can not; since each is like an Annie's book, some are even Operas; to give you an example, a world known jazz player wanted to compose such by using one of my paintings, he came two years ago as well as this year and has not forgotten that complexity like the BM movie in that one painting and yet it is simple (like love is)!!

Here I go again with much and simply to add,

give me samples to help me?? You and others.

Yes, at what moment in the BBM movie I realize or you realize that they were falling in love?? -  it this like that for me too in creating my painting (composing with colors, etc.) as well as in my writing (composing with words),

awaiting your news,

Joyeux Noel, Merry Christmas Happy gay Holidays!!

[brokeplex]

Artiste, your paintings are incomparable!

Your posting sometimes meander a little. But, I will try to exercise patience beyond my natural disposition, and struggle thru them as often as I can.

Ironically, today I have more time to devote to Bettermost than I have had for some while. At least until D.L. gets back from shopping.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

I do not agree with you concerning the paintings I create. I do agree with the writing!

Your patience is great! So is your help!

Maybe like the BM movie, you will make a film with D.L. when he arrives about the two of you or about a clip about BBM or that Annie story, or another event??

Cheek to cheek... which ones?? So we will realize when one falls in love as in the BM movie?

Hugs!! Ha! Ha! Merry Christmas to you BOTH and Happy Gay Holidays!!

[Artiste]

If flirting is part of falling in love since it's attraction, then I would say that Ennis and Jack started falling in love or infatuation right away as soon as they saw each other !

Does that make some sense, maybe ?

[optom3]

I believe Ennis was pretty sure he was in love by the TS2 which was reaffirmed by the fight on the mountain when he realised their time was to be cut short. Ithink he knew beyond any doubt when he was in the alley after comming down from the mountain.That is if we are tlking love as opposd to lust or infatuation.
IronicallyI find it harder to pin dowm when Jack realised he was in love.His character is much more gregarious and thus the love angle is less easy to decipher.In the film I would say TST when he gently reassures Ennis. that is neither, lust or flirting, it is a oving and tender moment.

[KristinDaBomb]

I would have to say tent scene #2. The looks on both of their faces say it all.

[Artiste]

An attraction too between the two actors ?

Could that be so ?

May I dare pose this.

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

An attraction too between the two actors ?

Could that be so ?

May I dare pose this.

Au revoir,
hugs!

You can pose it, but I don't think it happened.If you look at their body language when they are interviewed together, they tend to cross their arms, or angle away from each other, or move legs away.The complete opposite of where a real attraction exists, where body language mirrors that of the person you are attracted to, or you move towards the object of your affection, sometimes even without knowing.

[Artiste]

Merci optom!

Like you say, that could be so: not attraction! But that could be too in order to avoid the lost of money the movie would NOT make if these two named-already-as-straight actors would japodize it!

Could that be so?

Au revoir, hugs!

[Gabreya]

The scene where Ennis says that the most he'd spoken in a year and so;they're communicating, getting to know eachother.

[Front-Ranger]

You can pose it, but I don't think it happened.If you look at their body language when they are interviewed together, they tend to cross their arms, or angle away from each other, or move legs away.The complete opposite of where a real attraction exists, where body language mirrors that of the person you are attracted to, or you move towards the object of your affection, sometimes even without knowing.

Au contraire, I think that kind of body language speaks of a great deal of attraction...if you want an example of this in the movie, just look at the first scene where Ennis lowers his head and hides behind his cowboy hat; where not a damn word is spoken!! Another example was made famous in The Virginian where the title character meets the schoolmarm/love interest. They ignored and avoided each other the whole evening of the dance. My pet name for this behavior is The Wyoming Greeting, LOL!

[Artiste]

Front-Ranger, I love that scene that you quote:

... I think that kind of body language speaks of a great deal of attraction...if you want an example of this in the movie, just look at the first scene where Ennis lowers his head and hides behind his cowboy hat;             
.......

Front-Ranger and others:
And there must be such others in this BM movie?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Merci, thanks Gabreya !

May I ask if non-speaking is also a way to communicate between the two ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Guest, since I saw that you were posting, and if you want to post, you have to be a member in order to post, I am told.

Bienvenue, that's welcome ! If you have any trouble, you can find my private email address on this site, and so emailing me with the title TROUBLE would help !


What do you think  too  ?    Any clue to add ?
 

[optom3]

Au contraire, I think that kind of body language speaks of a great deal of attraction...if you want an example of this in the movie, just look at the first scene where Ennis lowers his head and hides behind his cowboy hat; where not a damn word is spoken!! Another example was made famous in The Virginian where the title character meets the schoolmarm/love interest. They ignored and avoided each other the whole evening of the dance. My pet name for this behavior is The Wyoming Greeting, LOL!

I meant away from the movie, I did not see any attraction for each other outside the paramaters of the film'I saw evidence of friendshipand camaraderie, but that was all. In the movie as actors there were lots of signs of attraction, from an early satge.Maybe Iamconfusing the issue.

[brokeplex]

I meant away from the movie, I did not see any attraction for each other outside the paramaters of the film'I saw evidence of friendshipand camaraderie, but that was all. In the movie as actors there were lots of signs of attraction, from an early satge.Maybe Iamconfusing the issue.

I agree, outside the film, I saw only evidence of professional respect and comaraderie. But, as professional actors, both Gyllenhaal and Ledger carried off on-screen the mutual attraction that the Ennis and Jack characters felt for each other.

[Artiste]

Merci brokeplex,
as you say:
        I agree, outside the film, I saw only evidence of professional respect and comaraderie.               
.............

Brokeplex:
And maybe more, since no word since Heath's passing?

Maybe?

Au revoir,
hugs!